Category Archives: Asia

Diglossia in China

Dear Robert

I have no basis on which to agree or disagree with your assessment of the linguistic situation in China. However, aren’t nearly all Chinese born after 1949 sufficiently conversant with official Mandarin to understand it, read it and also carry on a conversation in it? In that case, China would be a country with diglossia, with all the non-Mandarin languages/dialects spoken in informal settings between locals, and official Mandarin spoken in formal settings and between people of different regions.

Regards. James

The younger people speak, read, and write Putonghua (a version of Mandarin) very well. A lot of the older adults can do the same. I believe there may be some monolinguals of the other tongues out there. And there are also monolinguals under age 5. Some Westerners adopted a 2-3 year old girl, and the girl could only speak some obscure Gan language. It took them a while to figure what the Hell language she even spoke because it was not obvious and the tongue was not well-known.

A problem is that some varieties have actually developed their own Putonghuas now! So in a sense the experiment is having unexpected consequences. Putonghuas of various regions can hardly be understood by Putonghua speakers of other regions. So even the standard is starting to split! However, getting everyone to speak, read, and write was definitely a good idea.

My father was stationed in China in 1946 after the war for a while. The US occupied China for a while there. He said that when he was in Peking (the old Beijing), there were rickshaw drivers everywhere. If you wanted to get anywhere, you summoned a rickshaw. He said that the rickshaw drivers had the pens and pads and they were always running around offering the pens and pads to passengers and other drivers because the other person spoke some other lect, so they could not understand each other. But most of them could read and write Mandarin! So if worse came to worse and you could not talk to each other, you could always write it down! So actually, China had a Putonghua of sorts even before the Communist victory and the introduction of Putonghua.

And I do not believe that Putonghua was introduced in 1949. I think it took the Communists a little while to come up with it and formulate it properly.

The “Speak Mandarin” campaign has had some unintended consequences because it is not allowed to teach school in any language but Mandarin for Sinitic speakers. I believe that speakers of other tongues such as Tibetans can have home language education, which is considered a progressive thing. I know that teachers were still teaching classes in Shanghainese not so long ago. Also speaking dialects was discouraged and possibly even punished at school. I am not sure if even today you can take courses in other Chinese languages at school. But the Mandarin only campaign went too far and it has led to the destruction of a lot of the less spoken varieties, which in many cases are full languages and not dialects at all. So it has been very controversial.


Filed under Asia, China, Chinese language, Language Families, Left, Linguistics, Mandarin, Maoism, Marxism, Regional, Sinitic, Sino-Tibetan, Sociolinguistics, World War 2

Update: A Reworking of Chinese Language Classification

If you want to know where I have been the past few days, I have been working on this piece. I work on it for hours every day. So far, I have put in over 500 hours on this piece. That’s over three months of full-time work. My haters say I don’t work. The Hell I don’t work! I’d like to see them try to do this sort of work. This piece has been ridiculed by some linguist idiots on the Net. I worked a bit with linguists outside the Web. In fact, one of the top Sinologists (they have a Wikipedia entry) has been mentoring me on this project for some time now. I will not reveal this person’s name.

The number of languages has increased vastly from 365 to 526. Actually there are probably more than that. I have reason to believe that there may be 1,000-2,000 separate Chinese languages using the 90% intelligibility barrier (<90% = separate language, >90% = dialect). Just to contrast, Wikipedia says there are 14 Chinese languages (a grotesque underestimate) and the Chinese government insanely lies that there is only one Chinese language. Despite their superior IQ’s, a huge number of Chinese people fall of this idiot lie that is obviously based on political BS and not science. The Net is littered with otherwise intelligent Chinese people arguing strenuously that there is only one Chinese languages. Just goes to show that you have a high IQ and still be an idiot if your thought processes are too biased, which is the basic problem with all human thinking anyway.

Just to toot my own horn a bit and in response to my detractors, this is the most elaborate and extensive overview of the Chinese languages written in English in terms of pure classification that I have ever seen. There may well be works of this caliber or even beyond that are written in Chinese. In fact, one of the problems with this work  is that so much of the original research is in Chinese. My Chinese is not very good, so it’s hard for me to read that stuff. This is not a finished product at all. This work will undergo revisions for quite some time if I keep working on it. It may not be done when I die. It’s a Herculean project.

I had to paste this in from a Word document, which is why the formatting looks so strange. But the post has received a huge update, in particular the Hokkien, Teochew, Wu and Cantonese sections. I am up to 526 languages. I would like any speakers of any Chinese language to look this over for me and add any corrections, explanations, elaborations, etc. I am especially interested in any mutual intelligibility data you might have as I have a bit of a mutual intelligibility fetish.

Warning: Very long. Runs to 87 pages in a Word document.

A Reworking of Chinese Language Classification

by Robert Lindsay

The Chinese languages have undergone a lot of reclassification lately (Mair 1991), from one Chinese language a couple of decades ago up to 14 Chinese languages today according to the latest Ethnologue.

However, Jerry Norman, one of the world’s top experts on Chinese, has stated that based on mutual intelligibility, there are 350-400 separate languages within Chinese (Mair 1991). According to Gong Xun, a Sichuan Mandarin speaker in Deyang, China, by my criteria of distinguishing between language and dialect, there would be 300-400 separate languages in Fujian alone.

So far, 2,500 dialects of the Chinese language have been identified, and a number of them are separate languages.

Based on the criteria of mutual intelligibility, I have expanded the 14 Chinese languages into 526 separate languages.

There are different ways of calculating mutual intelligibility. Mutual intelligibility is hard to determine. I am not interested in typological studies of varieties involving either lexicon, phonology or tones, unless this can be quantified in terms of mutual intelligibility in a scientific way (Cheng 1991). For the most part, what I am interested in is, “Can they understand each other?”

I decided to put it at 90%, with >90% being dialect and <90% being a separate language. This is based on what appears to be Ethnologue‘s criteria for establishing the line between a dialect and a language.

In the cases below where I had mutual intelligibility data available, a number of Chinese languages had no more than 65% intelligibility between them (Cheng 1991).

The best way to see this study is as a pilot study. The purpose of the classification below is more to stimulate academic interest and sprout new thinking and theory. It is not intended to be an end-all or be-all statement on the subject; in fact, it is quite the opposite. Pilot studies, which is what this is, are de facto never accurate and precise.

Reasonable, fair-minded, and professional comments, additions, criticisms, elaborations, presentations of evidence, etc. are highly encouraged.

I assume this paper will be controversial. Keep in mind that this work is extremely tentative and should not be taken as the last word on the subject by a long shot.

Interested scholars, observers or speakers of Chinese languages are encouraged to contribute any knowledge that they may have to add to, confirm or criticize this data below. So far as I know, this is the first real attempt to split Chinese beyond the 14 languages elucidated by Ethnologue.

There are many problems with the data below. In many cases, “separate language” just means that the variety is not intelligible with Putonghua. Unfortunately, I currently lack excellent mutual intelligibility data within the major language groups such as Gan, Xiang, Wu, and the branches of Mandarin. There is probably quite a bit of lumping still to be done below. Where varieties are mutually intelligible below, I have tried to lump them into one language with various dialects.

In many cases, we seem to be dealing with dialect chains. This is particularly the case with the Mandarin languages, incorrectly referred to as the Mandarin dialects.

For instance, in Henan each major city can understand the next city over fairly well, but at the second or third city over, you run into serious comprehension difficulties. But even there, the languages are fairly close, with intelligibility at ~70%, and after three weeks of close contact, they can communicate fairly well. In many cases, it is a matter of working out the tone changes, for tone changes are very common even among the Mandarin lects.


Putonghua is Standard Mandarin, based on the Beijing Mandarin dialect as of 1949, but it has since diverged wildly, and many Putonghua speakers today cannot understand Beijing Mandarin. Putonghua is being promoted as the national language of China.

In addition to Putonghua, there 1,500 other dialects of Mandarin spoken in China. In general, other Mandarin dialects are not intelligible to Putonghua speakers (Campbell 2009). However, the Northeastern Mandarin dialects and the dialects around Beijing are more intelligible with Putonghua than the Mandarin dialects in the rest of the country.

The implication is that there may be over 1,500 Mandarin languages in China. However, many of these Mandarin dialects are intelligible with at least some other Mandarin lects. Hence, despite the lack of intelligibility with Putonghua, there is a lot of potential lumping within Mandarin.

The degree to which Mandarin dialects are intelligible to each other is very much an open question and in general is poorly investigated.

We should also note here that even Putonghua, the language that was meant to tie the nation together, seems to be evolving into regional languages.

Guangdong Putonghua is not fully intelligible to speakers of the Putonghuas of Northern China and hence is probably a separate language.

Shanghai Putonghua is often not intelligible with Putonghua from other regions. It has heavy interference from Shanghaihua, which seriously effects the Putonghua accent. Even after four years of exposure, Standard Putonghua speakers often have problems with it.

Anhui Putonghua has poor intelligibility with Standard Putonghua due to its phonology. Therefore, it is a separate language.

In addition, Jianghuai Putonghua and Zhengcao Putonghua are not intelligible with Putonghua from other areas (Campbell 2009). These varieties of Mandarin cause a particular interference with Putonghua Mandarin that results in a severe dialectal disturbance in their Putonghua.

These Putonghuas are spoken in the regions native to the Jianghuai and Zhengcao branches of Mandarin. Jianghuai Mandarin is spoken in Anhui, Jiangsu, Hubei and to a much lesser extent Zhejiang Provinces. Zhengcao Mandarin is spoken in Anhui, Henan, Shandong, and Jiangsu, with one dialect spoken in Hebei.

Tibetan Mandarin has heavy Tibetan admixture.

There are also varieties of Putonghua that are spoken in Singapore and Taiwan. Claims that Taiwan Mandarin is fully intelligible with Putonghua are incorrect. Taiwanese Mandarin is about 80-85% intelligible with Putonghua. Based on that intelligibility figure, Taiwanese Mandarin is a separate language.

Singapore Mandarin has fewer differences with Putonghua than Taiwanese Mandarin and hence is a dialect of Putonghua.

Malay Mandarin is said to be quite different but nevertheless mutually intelligible with Putonghua. Nevertheless, Malay Mandarin speakers say they have to make speech adjustments with Chinese speakers, otherwise their speech is poorly intelligible. This implies that Malay Mandarin is indeed a separate language.

Yunnan Putonghua is intelligible with Putonghua from other regions (Campbell 2009).

Mandarin has 873 million speakers. There are an incredible 1,526 varieties of Mandarin.

Beijing Jilu Mandarin is has low intelligibility with other branches of Mandarin: 72% intelligible with Southwest Mandarin, 64% intelligible with Zhongyuan Mandarin and 55% intelligible with Jiaoliao Mandarin (Cheng 1997).

Putonghua was based on Beijing Dialect. However, many Putonghua speakers claim that Beijinghua is not inherently intelligible with Putonghua. Complaints about unintelligible taxi drivers in Beijing are legendary. At the very least, competing views of the intelligibility of Beijinghua and Putonghua deserve investigation.

On the other hand, Beijinghua is intelligible with Hebei Mandarin and Nanjing City Mandarin, yet Putonghua is not intelligible with Hebei.

The Beijinger variety of Beijing’s hutongs and taxi drivers is legendary for being hard to understand.

The truth is that Putonghua was never entirely based on Beijinghua. It was in terms of pronunciation but in for vocabulary. Putonghua got only 35% of its vocabulary from Beijinghua. Most of its vocabulary came from Japanese Kanji words. They used a form of Mandarin that was based on Chinese scholars who went to study in Japan at the end of the Qing Era. So Putonghua, like Standard Italian which is based on Florentine Italian of Dante circa 1400, is in a sense frozen in time.

The two lects may also have taken separate trajectories. This has also occurred in Italian, where, though Standard Italian was based on Florentine Tuscan, Standard Italian and Tuscan Italian have taken separate trajectories since. If you see old Tuscan men on TV in Italy, a speaker of Standard Italian from Southern Italy would need subtitles to understand them, but one from Northern Italy would not.

Others say that Putonghua was based on the language of the Beijing suburbs, not the city itself.

For whatever reason, Beijinghua often seems to have less than 90% intelligibility with Putonghua, though the question needs further research. Beijinghua, in its pure and least mutually intelligible form, seems to be spoken mostly in the innermost hutongs and among taxi drivers and other low-income and working class people. The variety of people with more education and money is probably a lot more comprehensible.

I would describe the real, pure, Putonghua as “CCTV speech”, the variety you hear on Chinese state television. Evidence that Beijinghua lacks full intelligibility with Putonghua is here, here, here, here, here, here, here and here.

The question of whether or not Beijinghua is a separate language from Putonghua is sure to be highly controversial. Perhaps intelligibility testing could settle the question.

Jinan (New Jinan) Jilu Mandarin is not intelligible with Putonghua.

Cangzhou Jilu Mandarin, spoken in southeastern Hebei, is a separate language. It is only partly intelligible with Putonghua. Renqiu Jilu Mandarin, Huanghua, Hejian Jilu Mandarin, Cangxian Jilu Mandarin, Qingxian Jilu Mandarin, Xianxian Jilu Mandarin, Dongguang Jilu Mandarin, Haixing Jilu Mandarin, Yanshan Jilu Mandarin, Suning Jilu Mandarin, Nanpi Jilu Mandarin, Wuqiao Jilu Mandarin, and Mengcun Jilu Mandarin, all spoken in Cangzhou Prefecture, are all dialects of Cangzhou Jilu Mandarin.

Cangzhou Jilu Mandarin shares some similarities with Tianjin Jilu Mandarin and Baoding Jilu Mandarin, but it is probably not fully intelligible with either.

Tianjin Mandarin‘s tones are quite different from Putonghua’s, its tone sandhi is much more complicated, and it is more closely related to varieties 150-500 miles away, since originally Tianjin Mandarin speakers came from Anhui (Lee 2002). Nevertheless, Tianjin Mandarin is a dialect of Beijing Mandarin.

Baoding Jilu Mandarin appears to be a separate language because there are people from the city who cannot speak it at all.

Beijing is in group called the Beijing Group of Jilu Mandarin. It contains 43 separate varieties and may contain more than one language.

Jinan is a member of the Liaotai Group of Jilu Mandarin Group, which has 37 lects.

The Baoding Group of Jilu Mandarin has 52 lects.

Cangzhou, Renqiu, Huanghua, Hejian, Cangxian, Qingxian, Xianxian, Dongguang, Haixing, Yanshan, Suning, Nanpi, Wuqiao, and Mengcun are members of the Huangle subgroup of Baotang, which has 25 lects.

Tianjin forms its own subgroup within Baotang.

Jilu Mandarin itself consists of 154 lects.

Northeastern (Dongbei) Mandarin is generally intelligible with Putonghua.

Shenyang Northeastern Mandarin is the main dialect in this group, and it is intelligible with Harbin Northeastern Mandarin, Liaoning Northeastern Mandarin, Changchun Northeastern Mandarin, and Heilongjiang Northeastern Mandarin. Harbin Northeastern Mandarin is also intelligible with Tianjin Jilu Mandarin and Beijing Jilu Mandarin. Nanjing City Northeastern Mandarin, Hebei Northeastern Mandarin, and much of the rest of NE Mandarin are all mutually intelligible.

Shenyang is a member of the Jishen Group of Northeastern Mandarin, which has 44 lects.

Within Jishen, Shenyang is a member of the Tongxi Group, which has 24 lects.

Harbin is a member of the Hafu Group of Northeastern Mandarin, which has 64 lects.

Within Hafu, Harbin Mandarin is a member of the Zhaofu Group, which has 18 lects.

Dongbei Mandarin has 108 lects.

Zhongyuan Mandarin is a large split in Mandarin. It is not fully intelligible with Putonghua.

Nanjing Zhongyuan Mandarin (evidence) is also a separate language – now mostly spoken in the suburbs, as city speech is not a separate language anymore. The city language is intelligible with the general Northeastern China Mandarin spoken in Beijing and Hebei.

So we shall call Nanjing Suburbs Zhongyuan Mandarin a separate language.

Luoyang Zhongyuan Mandarin, Kaifeng Zhongyuan Mandarin, Changyuan Zhongyuan Mandarin, and Zhengzhou Zhongyuan Mandarin, all in Henan Province, are not intelligible with Putonghua. However, all four are mutually intelligible, so they are dialects of a single language, Henan Zhongyuan Mandarin.

Xinyang Zhongyuan Mandarin, also spoken in Henan, is a separate language and cannot be understood by Luoyang Zhongyuan Mandarin speakers.

Nanyang Zhongyuan Mandarin has high but not complete intelligibility with Luoyang Zhongyuan Mandarin. Intelligibility between Nanyang Zhongyuan Mandarin and Luoyang Zhongyuan Mandarin is probably ~70%. Nanyang Zhongyuan Mandarin has 15 million speakers.

Gushi Zhongyuan Mandarin is not intelligible with Putonghua. In addition, Gushi Zhongyuan Mandarin is different from Nanyang Zhongyuan Mandarin and is probably not intelligible with it.

Intelligibility between Xinyang Zhongyuan Mandarin and Gushi Zhongyuan Mandarin is not known.

In general, intelligibility between many varieties in Henan is not full, but after a few weeks or so of close contact, they can start to understand each other. Mutual intelligibility between Xinyang Zhongyuan Mandarin, Gushi Zhongyuan Mandarin, and Nanyang Zhongyuan Mandarin may be ~70%.

In Shaanxi, Yanan Zhongyuan Mandarin, Xian Zhongyuan Mandarin, Huxian Zhongyuan Mandarin, Zhouzhi Zhongyuan Mandarin, and Hanzhou Zhongyuan Mandarin are not intelligible with Putonghua, but they may well be intelligible with each other. Xi’an Zhongyuan Mandarin, for instance, is about 65% intelligible with other Mandarin groups. It is closest to Jinan Jilu Mandarin, with which it has 75% intelligibility (Cheng 1997). Let us call this language Shaanxi Zhongyuan Mandarin.

Xining Zhongyuan Mandarin, spoken in Xinghai, seems to be very different from other Shaanxi Zhongyuan Mandarin varieties and is probably a separate language altogether.

In Gansu Province, Gansu Zhongyuan Mandarin appears to be a separate language. Tongwei Zhongyuan Mandarin appears to be a dialect of Gansu Zhongyuan Mandarin.

However, within Gansu Zhongyuan Mandarin, there are divergent lects, such as Sale Zhongyuan Mandarin, which are unintelligible with other Gansu Mandarin lects.

Bozhou Zhongyuan Mandarin (evidence), Yingshang Zhongyuan Mandarin (evidence), and Fuyang Zhongyuan Mandarin (evidence), spoken in Anhui, are at least unintelligible with Putonghua. Fuyang Zhongyuan Mandarin is very different. The unnamed variety spoken 300 km. south of Jinan around Mengcheng in rural Anhui is said to be completely unintelligible with Putonghua, Tianjin Jilu Mandarin, and Beijinghua. For the time being, we will refer to this as one language, Anhui Zhongyuan Mandarin. Intelligibility between varieties of Anhui Zhongyuan Mandarin is not known.

The Mandarin spoken in Qinghai, Quinghai Zhongyuan Mandarin, is very different from that spoken in Gansu.

Xian, Huxian, and Zhouzhi are members of the Guanzhong Group of Zhongyuan Mandarin, which has 45 lects.

Yanan, Hanzhong, and Xining are members of the Qinlong Group of Zhongyuan Mandarin, which has 67 lects.

Luoyang is a member of the Luoxu Group of Zhongyuan Mandarin, which has 28 lects.

Kiafeng, Nanyang, Zengzhou, Changyuan, and Bozhou are members of the Zhengcao Group of Zhongyuan Mandarin, which has 93 lects.

Xinyang and Gushi are in the Xinbeng subgroup of Zhongyuan Mandarin, which has 20 lects.

Tongwei and Sale are part of the Longzhong Group of Zhongyuan Mandarin, which has 25 lects.

Yingshang is a member of the Cailu Group of Zhongyuan Mandarin, which has 30 lects.

Zhongyuan Mandarin has a shocking 338 lects.

Zhongyuan Mandarin has 130 million speakers (Olson 1998).

Southwestern Mandarin is a huge and diverse group of Mandarin, contains a multitude of varieties and is not fully intelligible with Putonghua.

Yichang, Nanping Southwestern Mandarin (spoken near Mt. Wuyievidence), Longcheng Southwestern Mandarin (evidence), Luocheng Southwestern Mandarin (evidence), Lingui Southwestern Mandarin (evidence), Jiuzhaigou Southwestern Mandarin (evidence) Xindu Southwestern Mandarin, Wenshan Southwestern Mandarin (evidence), Mianzhu Southwestern Mandarin (evidence here and here), and Yangshuo Southwestern are all unintelligible with Putonghua.

Guilin Southwestern Mandarin is not intelligible with general Southwestern Mandarin speech either.

Wenshan at least is not intelligible with other Southwestern varieties (Johnson 2010).

Guiliu Southwestern Mandarin is at least not comprehensible with Putonghua or Chengdu Southwestern Mandarin.

Chengyu Southwestern Mandarin is not comprehensible with Putonghua or Guiliu Southwestern Mandarin.

Chengdu Southwestern Mandarin is part of a broadly intelligible Sichuan Southwestern Mandarin koine that is spoken in many of the larger cities in Yunnan.

It includes Ziyang Southwestern Mandarin, Kunming Southwestern Mandarin, Bazhong Southwestern Mandarin, Baojing Southwestern Mandarin, Dazhou Southwestern Mandarin, Neijiang Southwestern Mandarin, Yibin Southwestern Mandarin, Luzhou Southwestern Mandarin, Mianyang Southwestern Mandarin, Deyang Southwestern Mandarin, and Guiyang Southwestern Mandarin (Xun 2009).

Speakers of Chengdu Southwestern Mandarin say that Zigong Southwestern Mandarin and Meishan Southwestern Mandarin are not intelligible to them. Chengduhua is still very widely spoken in Chengdu by people of all ages.

Ziyang Southwestern Mandarin is intelligible with the koine but has a heavy accent.

Leshan Southwestern Mandarin is a separate language. It is unintelligible with the koine, but it can be learned in a few weeks of exposure (Xun 2009).

Intelligibility between Leshan Southwestern Mandarin and Sichuan Southwestern Mandarin may be ~70%.

Hankou Southwestern Mandarin is a separate language, with 80% intelligibility between it and Chengdu Southwestern Mandarin (Cheng 1997).

Chongqing Southwestern Mandarin is a separate language. Chongqing Southwestern Mandarin speakers cannot understand Chengdu or Luzhou speakers.

The many small Southwestern Mandarin varieties around Mt. Emei are not intelligible with Sichuan Southwestern Mandarin, appear to be be very different and may be one or more separate languages.

Wuhan Southwestern Mandarin is not intelligible to speakers of Southwestern Mandarin from other provinces; for instance, it is only 80% intelligible with Chengdu Southwestern Mandarin. Once you go an hour in any direction from Wuhan, Wuhan Southwestern Mandarin is no longer intelligible.

Dali Southwestern Mandarin is spoken in the city of Dali near Kunming. The variety is still widely spoken.

Dahua Southwestern Mandarin, spoken in and around Dahua village on the Puduhe River near Dongchuan in Yunnan Province, is apparently a separate language.

Another language spoken in Yunnan, Lanping Southwestern Mandarin, is also not intelligible with Putonghua.

Chuanlan Southwestern Mandarin is a little-known language spoken by the Tunbao people of Guangxi Province.

Yingshan Southwestern Mandarin is a separate language based on a 200 word Swadesh test (Ben Hamed 2005).

Menghai Southwestern Mandarin (evidence) may well be a completely separate language.

Shaoshan Southwestern Mandarin, spoken in Hunan Province, is a separate language.

Another language spoken in Hunan in Zhangjiajie County is called Zhangjiajie Maoxi Southwestern Mandarin. The Maoxi are a tribal group there that speak a strange variety of Southwestern Mandarin.

Tuoyuan Southwestern Mandarin in Hunan is not fully intelligible with other Southwest Mandarin lects, or at least not with Sichuan Southwestern Mandarin.

Gaoping Southwestern Mandarin and Baixi Southwestern Mandarin in Hunan speak mutually intelligible varieties, even though Gaoping is in Longhui County and Baixi is in Xinhua County. Although they are very far from each other, the two towns can communicate with each other in their own varieties without problems. This is because an extended family left Gaoping 150 years ago and moved to Baixi, marrying the two languages. It would be best to call this language Gaoping Southwestern Mandarin.

Xinfeng Southwestern Mandarin is traditionally categorized as Southwestern Mandarin. It is a Southwestern Mandarin dialect island spoken in Ganzou City in Xinfeng County, Jiangxi surrounded by Gannan Hakka lects. Over time, it has seen so much Hakka influence that it may now be characterized as a mixed dialect. Given the massive Hakka influence, Xinfeng Southwestern Mandarin is no doubt a separate language.

Gong’an Southwestern Mandarin is a very unusual Southwestern Mandarin variety spoken in Gong’an City in Hubei. Hunan is to the south. It is nearly a mixed language, having features of both Southwestern Mandarin and Xiang. As such, no doubt it is a separate language.

Guilin, Luocheng, Yangshuo, Liuzhou, and Lingui are members of the Guiliu Group of Southwestern Mandarin, which has 57 lects.

Leshan and Longchang are members of the Guanchi Group of Southwestern Mandarin, which has 85 lects.

Within Guanchi, Longchang is a member of the Renfu Group, which has 13 lects.

Yichang, Chengdu, Chongqing, and Yingshan are members of the Chengyu Group of Southwestern Mandarin, which has 113 lects.

Menghai, Kunming, Wenshan, and Guiyang are members of the Kungui Group of Southwestern Mandarin. The Kungui Group itself has an incredible 95 lects.

Lanping is in the Dianxi Group of Southwestern Mandarin, which has 36 lects.

Within Dianxi, it is a member of the Baolu subgroup, which has 21 lects.

Taoyuan is a member of the Changhe Group of Southwestern Mandarin, which has 14 lects.

Wuhan is a member of Wutian Group of Southwestern Mandarin, which has nine lects.

Dali is a member of the Dianxi Group of Southwestern Mandarin, which has 36 members.

Within Dianxi, Dali is a member of the Yaoli Group, which has 15 members.

Nanping, Chuanlan, Shaoshan, Jiuzhaigou, Zhangjiajie Maoxi, and Dahua are unclassified.

Southwestern Mandarin itself has a stunning 519 lects. There are 240 million speakers of Southwestern Mandarin (Olson 1998).

Jianghuai Mandarin is a separate branch of Mandarin that is very different from the rest of Mandarin. Language and is not fully intelligible with Putonghua. Some say that this is not even part of Mandarin, as it is better seen as in between Mandarin and Wu.

Jianghuai Mandarin, especially the variety spoken around Taizhou, is not intelligible at all with Anhui Zhongyuan Mandarin or Sichuan Southwestern Mandarin. Jianghuai Mandarin speakers cannot even tell that the Anhui Zhongyuan Mandarin or Sichuan Southwestern Mandarin speakers are speaking Mandarin because the language is so foreign.

Yangzhou Jianghuai Mandarin is considered to be a separate language by a 200 word Swadesh test (Ben Hamed 2005). Yangzhou Jianghuai Mandarin has about 52% intelligibility with the other branches of Mandarin (Cheng 1997). Phonetically, it resembles Wu.

Lianyungang Jianghuai Mandarin is a separate language, as is Yancheng Jianghuai Mandarin and Huaian Jianghuai Mandarin.

Nantong Jianghuai Mandarin, a very strange variety of Mandarin on the border of Wu and Mandarin that shares many features with Wu languages, is a separate language.

Nantong’s sister language, Tongdong Jianghuai Mandarin, is also a separate language. Jinsha Jianghuai Mandarin is a dialect of Nantong Jianghuai Mandarin.

Rugao Jianghuai Mandarin, next to Nantong, is also a separate language.

Hefei Jianghuai Mandarin is considered to be a separate language by a 200 word Swadesh list (Ben Hamed 2005). It is not understood outside of the city.

In 1933, there were three different languages spoken in Tongcheng, Anhui – Tongcheng Wenli Jianghuai Mandarin, East Jianghuai Tongcheng Mandarin, and West Tongcheng Jianghuai Mandarin and. Tongcheng Wenli Mandarin was the classical-based language spoken by the educated elite of the city. Whether these three languages still exist is not known, but surely some of the speakers in 1933 are still alive.

Chuzhou Jianghuai Mandarin, spoken in Anhui, is not intelligible with Putonghua, although it is said to be close to Nanjing Jianghuai Mandarin.

Dangtu Jianghuai Mandarin, also spoken in Anhui, is not intelligible with Putonghua.

Dongtai Jianghuai Mandarin is a separate language (evidence). Dafeng Jianghuai Mandarin, Taizhou Jianghuai Mandarin, Xinghua Jianghuai Mandarin and Haian Jianghuai Mandarin are said to be similar to Dongtai Jianghuai Mandarin, so for the time being, we will list them as dialects of Dongtai Jianghuai Mandarin.

Rudong Jianghuai Mandarin is at least not intelligible with Putonghua.

Jiujiang Jianghuai Mandarin, spoken in Jiangxi Province, is a separate language, as is Xingzi, located close by.

Intelligibility between Rudong Jianghuai Mandarin, Dafeng Jianghuai Mandarin, Taizhou Jianghuai Mandarin, Xinghua Jianghuai Mandarin, Haian Jianghuai Mandarin and Dongtai Jianghuai Mandarin is not known, however they may be closely related.

Jianghuai Mandarin is composed of an incredible 120 varieties. It has 65 million speakers (Olson 1998).

Yangzhou, Lianyungang, Yancheng, Huaian, Nanjing, Hefei, Anqing, the Tongchengs, and Chuzhou and Dangtu are in the Hongchao Group of Jianghuai Mandarin, which has 82 lects.

Dongtai, Dafeng, Taizhou, Haian, Xinghua, Jinsha, Nantong, Tongdong, Rudong, and Rugao are in the Tairu Group of Jianghuai Mandarin. Tairu has 11 different lects.

Jiujiang and Xingzi are members of the Huangxiao Group of Jianghuai Mandarin, which has 20 lects.

Lanyin Mandarin in the far northwest is also a separate language (Campbell 2004). Though Lanyin Mandarin is said to be intelligible with Putonghua, that does not appear to be the case. Minqin Lanyin Mandarin, (evidence) and Lanzhou Lanyin Mandarin (evidence) in Gansu are not fully intelligible with Putonghua, nor is Yinchuan Lanyin Mandarin (evidence) in Ningxia.

Intelligibility within Lanyin Mandarin is not known, but Jiuquan Lanyin Mandarin at least appears to be a completely separate language inside Lanyin Mandarin.

Jiuquan is a member of the Hexi Group of Lanyin Mandarin, which has 18 lects.

Yinchuan is a member of the Yinwu Group of Lanyin Mandarin, which has 12 lects.

Lanzhou is a member of the Jincheng Group of Lanyin Mandarin, which has four lects.

Lanyin Mandarin is composed of 57 separate lects. It has 9 million speakers (Olson 1998).

The Jiaoliao Mandarin spoken in Shandong as Shandong Jiaoliao Mandarin contains varieties such as Qingdao Jiaoliao Mandarin and Wehai Jiaoliao Mandarin which are not fully intelligible with Putonghua. Yantai Jiaoliao Mandarin is a dialect of Wehai Jiaoliao Mandarin. Qingdao Jiaoliao Mandarin, Wehai Jiaoliao Mandarin, Yantai Jiaoliao Mandarin and Yangzheng Jiaoliao Mandarin are all mutually intelligible. Dalian Jiaoliao Mandarin is quite different from Putonghua.

Wehai, Dalian and 21 other varieties are members of the Denglian Group of Jiaoliao Mandarin, which has 23 lects.

Jiaoliao Mandarin is composed of 45 lects. Jiaoliao is not fully intelligible with Putonghua. Intelligibility inside of Jiaoliao Mandarin is not known, but there may be multiple languages inside of it because some Shandong Peninsula varieties sound very strange even to speakers used to hearing Shandong Jiaoliao Mandarin.

Wutun or Wutunhua, is an unclassified language, a Mandarin-Mongolian-Tibetan creole mixed language spoken by 2,000 Tu or Monguar people in Eastern Qinghai Province. The Monguars speak Bonan, a Mongolic language with heavy Tibetan and Mandarin influence. Although the government regards them as Monguar Mongolians, the group self-identifies as Tibetan.

The source of the Mandarin is not known, but it is thought that the group came from outside the region, either Jilu Mandarin speakers from Tianjin in the northeast or from a group of Southwest Mandarin-speaking Hui Muslims in Sichuan Province who converted to Lamaist Buddhism for unknown reasons. They have been in their present location since at least 1585.

This is best seen as a Mandarin language that came under heavy influence of Bonan and to a lesser extent Tibetan after which when it was changed into an agglutinative language under the influence of these two other languages. The lexicon is 60% Mandarin with the tones lost, 25% Tibetan and 10% Bonan.

Karamay is an unclassified Mandarin language spoken in Xinjaing.

The Mandarin spoken around Tiantai in Zhejiang is not intelligible with Putonghua and may be a separate language. It is also unclassified.


Although it is related to Mandarin, Jin is a completely separate language, with only 57% intelligibility with other forms of Mandarin (Cheng 1997). The differences between Jin and Mandarin are somewhat greater than the differences between Mandarin itself.

Besides the Main Jin branch, Baoto Jin is apparently a separate language, as is possibly Taiyuan Jin (evidence).

Within Hohhot Jin, there are two separate languages.

One is Hohhot Xincheng Jin, a combination of Hebei Jin, Northeastern Mandarin and the Manchu language.

The other is Jiucheng Hohhot Jin, spoken by the Muslim Hui minority in the city. It is related to other forms of Jin in Shanxi Province.

Yuci Jin is a separate language from Taiyuan on a 200 word Swadesh test (Ben Hamed 2005).

Fenyang Jin, the language used in Chinese director Jia Zhanke’s movie Xiao Shan Going Home is not intelligible with Putonghua.

Jingbian Jin, in Shanxi, is a separate language.

Yulin Jin is also a separate language.

Hohhot is a member of the Zhanghu Group of Jin, which has 29 lects.

Baotou and Yulin are members of the Dabao Group of Jin, which has 29 lects.

Taiyuan and Yuci are members of the Bingzhou Group of Jin, which has 16 lects.

Fenyang is member of the Luliang Group of Jin, which has 17 lects.

Jingbian is a member of the Wutai Group of Jin, which has 30 lects.

Jin is composed of 171 lects, and some of them are separate languages. Jin has 48 million speakers (Olson 1998).


Gan is a macrolanguage spoken mostly in Jiangxi Province. The mountainous and rugged terrain of Jiangxi means that Gan is very diverse, with many mutually unintelligible varieties within it. Whether Gan is as diverse as Xiang or Hui is not known.

Outside of Gan Proper, Leping Gan is very different. It is not at all intelligible with Nangchang Gan, and hence is a separate language.

Nangchang Gan and Anyi Gan are apparently separate languages within Gan based on a 200 word Swadesh test (Ben Hamed 2005). Nanchang Gan has a great deal of dialectal diversity, with several dialects covering different cities and the rural areas. Intelligibility between these dialects is not known. Nanchang Gan is still spoken very heavily in Nanchang.

Boyang Gan is spoken in another part of Jiangxi and is apparently a separate language from Nanchang Gan.

The nine major dialectal splits in Gan are apparently not mutually intelligible. Similarly, they must surely be separate languages, so Yichun Gan Ji’an Gan, Fuzhou Gan, Yingtan Gan, Leiyang Gan, Huaining Gan, Daye Gan, Wanzai Gan, and Dongkou Gan are all separate languages. There is diversity even among these groups. For instance, Ji’an is divided into Nanxiang Ji’an in the south and Baixiang Ji’an in the north. The two are not intelligible with each other.

In the Yingyi Group, Chaling Dongxian Gan in Hunan near the Jinxiang border is a variety with mixed Gan and Xiang features. The best analysis is that this is a Gan variety. Due to the heavy Xiang mixture, it is no doubt a separate Gan language.

Linchuan Gan, spoken in East-Central Jiangxi, is a very interesting Gan that differs from all others. This seems to be the remains of the old language that was brought into Jiangxi by the ancestors of the Hakka, and it indicates a possible close relationship between Gan and Hakka.

Gao’an Gan, Ducheng Gan, Yongxiu Gan, and Nancheng Gan are quite different from the rest of Gan, so they may well be separate languages.

Hukou Gan, Wuning Ganand Fengxin Gan are major splits in Northern Gan, and are all probably separate languages.

Hancheng Gan is a major split in Southern Gan and as such is probably a separate language.

Nanchang and Anyi are in the Changdu Group of Gan, which has 15 different lects.

Yingtan is a member of the Yingyi Group, which has 12 lects.

Jiangyu and Huarong are members of the Datong Group of Gan, which has 13 lects.

Yichun is a member of the Yiliu Group of Gan, which has 11 lects.

Wanzai is a member of the Yiping Group of Gan, of which it is the only member.

Leiyang is a member of the Leizi Group of Gan, which has five lects.

Wanan is a member of the Jilian Group of Gan, of which it is the only member.

Ji’an is a member of the Jicha Group of Gan, which has 15 lects.

Huaining is a member of the Huaiyue Group of Gan, which has nine lects.

Fuzhou is a member of the Fuguang Group of Gan, which has 15 lects.

Dongkou is a member of the Dongsui Group of Gan, which has five lects.

Gan has 97 separate varieties in it. There are 30 million speakers of the Gan languages (Olson 1998).


Northern, Central and Eastern Min

Northern Min or Min Bei

Within the Min group, Northern Min (Min Bei), a macrolanguage, has already been identified as a separate language. There are 50 million speakers of all of the Min languages (Olson 1998). Northern Min has only 0-20% intelligibility with Min Nan.

Northern Min or Min Bei is said to be a single language. It has nine separate lects, including Shibei Northern Min in Pucheng County; Chong’an Northern Min, Wufu Northern Min, and Xingtian Northern Min in Wuyishan City; Zhenghe Northern Min and Zhenqian Northern Min in Zhenghe County; Jianyang Northern Min in Jianyang County, and Jian’ou Northern Min in Jian’ou County.

The dialects are said to be mutually intelligible, but Jianyang and Jian’ou have only about 75% intelligibility. Northern Min has 10 million speakers.

Central Min or Min Zhong

Central Min or Min Zhong is a separate language not intelligible with Northern or Eastern Min. It has three lects, Shaxian Central Min, Sanming Central Min, and Yongan Central Min, but we don’t know if there are languages among them. The tones of the three varieties are quite different. Further, there are many dialects in the interior of Sanming Prefecture, so there may be more than one language there. Central Min has 3.5 million speakers.

Eastern Min or Min Dong

The standard dialect of Min Dong, Eastern Min, Fukchiuor Fooshuw is Fuzhou Eastern Min.

Eastern Min has only 0-20% intelligibility with Min Nan.

Within Eastern Min, Chengguan Eastern Min, Yangzhong Eastern Min, and Zhongxian Eastern Min are separate languages, all spoken in Youxi County. Zhongxian Eastern Min is spoken in the south of the county, Chengguan is spoken in the middle of the county, and Yangzhong is spoken in the north of the county. The three varieties have markedly poor intelligibility between them (Zheng 2008).

Beyond that, Eastern Min is reported to have several other mutually unintelligible languages inside of it. One of them is Fuqing Eastern Min. Fuzhou speakers can understand Fuqing speakers better than the other way around. Fuzhou and Fuqing are about 65% intelligible in praxis, and it is about the same with the rest of the Hougan Group (Ngù 2009).

Ningde Eastern Min, Fuding Eastern Min and Nanping Eastern Min are other languages in this family (evidence). There are many dialects in the Eastern Min-speaking areas of Nanping, and there may be more than one language here. Of these three, Ningde Eastern Min is definitely a separate language. According to George Ngù, a passionate proponent of Fuzhou Eastern Min, “Fuzhou is not intelligible even within its many varieties.”

It’s not clear if that applies to all of Eastern Min, but it appears that it does. Therefore, Changle Eastern Min, Gutian Eastern Min, Lianjiang Eastern Min, Luoyuan Eastern Min, Minhou Eastern Min, Minqing Eastern Min, Pingnan Eastern Min, Pingtan Eastern Min, Yongtai Eastern Min, Fu’an Eastern Min, Shouning Eastern Min, Xiapu Eastern Min, Zherong Eastern Min, and Zhouning Eastern Min are all separate languages.

Tong’an Eastern Min should probably also be included.

Matsu Eastern Min is spoken on Matsu Island off the coast of China. It is similar to but probably not intelligible with Changle Eastern Min. Matsu may well be a separate language like all the rest of Hougan.

There are two other varieties lumped in with Eastern Min – Man, Mango or Taishun Manjiang Eastern Min is spoken in the central part of Taishun County in Southern Zhejiang in the far southern end of the Wu-speaking area, and Manhua spoken in the eastern part of Cangnan County. Both of these names mean “barbarian speech.”

Both are probably mixtures of Southern Wu (Wenzhou etc.), Eastern Min, Northern Min, and maybe even pre-Sinitic languages. Manhua and Manjiang are not intelligible with Fuzhou Eastern Min. However, Manjiang has affinity with Shouning Eastern Min in phonology, vocabulary, and grammar. Whether or not it is intelligible with Shouning Eastern Min is not known.

Min Nan speakers who have looked at Manjiang data say that it doesn’t even look like a Sinitic language. It is best seen as an Eastern Min language with very strong substratum of a Tai-Kadai or Austroasiatic language.

Manhua is best dealt with as a form of Wu. I discuss it further below under Wu.

Malaysian Eastern Min is spoken in Sibu, Sarawak and in Singapore. These people were originally Fuqing and Fuzhou speakers who came in the 1800’s and is spoken in two lects based on those two cities. Malaysian Fuqing Eastern Min and Malaysian Fuzhou Eastern Min only have 12% intelligibility, much less than the 65% of the parent languages in China. The two Malaysian lects are obviously not the same language, but intelligibility of the two lects with the parent languages in China is not known.

Fuding, Fuan, Shouning, Xiapu, Zherong, and Zhouning are in the Funing Group of Eastern Min, which has six lects.

Fuzhou, Fuqing, Chengguan, Yangzhong, Zhongxian, Ningde, Changle, Gutian, Lianjiang, Luoyuan, Minhou, Minqing, Pingnan, Pingtan, Yongtai, Matsu, Tong’an, and Nanping are in the Houguan Group of Eastern Min, which has 18 lects.

Taishun Manjiang is in an Eastern Min division of its own.

Eastern Min contains 24 separate lects, all of which are separate languages.

Southern Min or Min Nan


Within Min Nan or Southern Min, a macrolanguage, there are a number of separate languages. There is a proposal to split Xiamen, Qiongwen and Teochew into three separate languages before SIL. In fact, all three of those are macrolanguages also.

Amoy, Xiamen or Taiwanese Hokkien, Zhangzhou Hokkien, and Quanzhou Hokkien are part of a larger Southern Min group called Hokkien.

Amoy Hokkien and Taiwanese Hokkien are the same language, as Taiwanese is an Amoy dialect. A good name for the entire language of Amoy-Taiwanese Hokkien is Xiamen Hokkien.

Amoy, the variety spoken in Amoy city in China, is identical to certain Taiwanese dialects. It is more or less intelligible with Taiwanese, as the differences between the two are minor, akin to British and American English. There have only been 120 years of separation between Amoy and Taiwanese. Most of the differences are in modern and local vocabulary.

Amoy and Qaunzhou Hokkien are no longer intelligible with each other due to lack of a standard and the dialectal variations in each. Also, Amoy has developed more modern meanings for certain words, while Quanzhou retains more of the older meanings for the same terms.

Amoy, like Taiwanese, is a mixture of Quanzhou and Zhangzhou Hokkien.

Jinmen or Kinmen Hokkien is a dialect of Amoy spoken on Jinmen Island only two miles off the coast of Amoy. It has good intelligibility with Taiwanese.

A better name for Xiamen according to the Chinese literature is Quanzhang Hokkien (Campbell 2009). This would actually be a macrolanguage. Quanzhang is a combination of Quanzhou and Zhangzhou, two of the most important varieties in the language. Xiamen has only 51% intelligibility with Teochew.

Xiamen is still widely spoken in Taiwan as Taiwanese Hokkien. However, it is in trouble as fewer young people speak it anymore. 20 years ago in Đàoviên, Taiwan, it was common to hear young women in their late teens and twenties speaking Hokkien, but now it is uncommon (Kirinputra 2014).

Within Taiwanese Hokkien, the situation regarding Taipei Hokkien in the past was interesting. The dialects of the city were a mix of Zhangzhou and Quanzhou.

The dialect of the center of the city, Taipei City Hokkien, was mixed between the two, with a slight Quanzhou lean to it.

The dialect spoken in Sulim, Sulim (Shilin) Hokkien, heavily favored Zhangzhou. Other districts spoke a Tong’an-type dialect, which is just Quanzhou mixed with Amoy.

All these conditions are more common with the older generation. The Taiwanese Hokkien of the young generation speaks either the mixed Zhangzhou-leaning “Southern” style favored in the media, or they do not speak any Hokkien at all.

The Yilan Hokkien dialect on Taiwan is so different that it alone has posed serious problems for the task of standardizing Taiwanese, yet it is intelligible with Standard Taiwanese Hokkien. Yilan is a city in Taiwan.

Lugang Hokkien is also very different but is intelligible with Standard Taiwanese (Campbell 2009).

Elsewhere on Taiwan, there are some communication problems for Tainan Hokkien speakers hearing Taipei, but it appears that they are still intelligible with each other (Campbell 2009). Tainan is a city in Taiwan. A similar dialect is spoken in Gaoxiong as Gaoxiong Hokkien. Tainan and Gaoxiong are the prestige dialects of Taiwanese Hokkien that Standard Taiwanese is based on.

Taichung Hokkien is another dialect of Taiwanese spoken in the city of that name.

Tong’an Hokkien is said to be a dialect of Amoy, but the truth is that it is in between Amoy and Quanzhou. Tong’an Hokkien is spoken in the city of that name. A Tong’an variety is also spoken in Malaysia and Indonesia.

There are dialects within Quanzhou, including Anxi Hokkien, Shishi Hokkien, Yongding Hokkien, Dehua Hokkien, Hui’an Hokkien, Jinjiang Hokkien, Nan’an Hokkien, and Hong Kong Tanka Hokkien.

All Quanzhou dialects are apparently mutually intelligibile.

There is a group of Hokkien speakers among the Tanka fisherpeople located to the north of the Four Counties area. They speak a language that resembles Anxi Hokkien. We will call this Hong Kong Tanka Hokkien for now. They communicate well with speakers from the Hokkien homeland, so it looks like their language has not changed much. Most of them arrived in Hong Kong in the 1930’s and 1940’s.

There are differences within Zhangzhou Hokkien.

Longhai Hokkien, Haikang Hokkien, Zhangpu Hokkien, Zhao’an Hokkien, Yunxiao Hokkien, Dongshan Hokkien and Yinchuan Hokkien, are all dialects of Zhangzhou Hokkien, spoken in the vicinity of the city.

Longhai Hokkien is very similar to the standard variety, while Zhangpu Hokkien is somewhat different.

Zhao’an Hokkien, Yunxiao Hokkien, and Dongshan Hokkien are all spoken in Southern Zhangzhou. They have been strongly effected by Teochew such that there is controversy over whether they are Teochew or Hokkien. Yunxiao and Dongshan have changed n → ng and t → k as in Teochew. Zhao’an resembles Teochew more than the others, as it has an ir vowel. Intelligibility data for these diverse Zhangzhou varieties is not available.

With the possible exception of the three varieties mentioned above, all Zhangzhou varieties are mutually intelligible.

Zhangzhou and Quanzhou are not fully intelligible with each other in China. Taiwanese speakers can no longer understand the pure Quanzhou spoken in the Chinese city of that name, and some Quanzhou speakers say they cannot understand Taiwanese either. Nevertheless, Taiwanese has 80% intelligibility of Quanzhou and Zhangzhou. After all, Taiwanese itself is just a mixture between Zhangzhou and Quanzhou.

Zhangzhou and Quanzhou have marginal intelligibility with Teochew.

Zhangping Hokkien, though close to Xiamen, is a separate language according to a 200 word Swadesh test (Ben Hamed 2005).

Pinghe Hokkien is said to be a separate language.

Diaspora, Nusantaran or Overseas Hokkien, that is all Hokkien spoken outside of China in the area for a few hundred miles up and down the coast in either direction from Amoy in China, could be seen as being composed of two main groups. It is a language in trouble as young people everywhere in the diaspora switch to Mandarin, and many children are not learning Hokkien. Technically, Taiwanese is included in Overseas Hokkien, but since it is merely a dialect of Amoy, we put it under Amoy instead.

50 years ago, we could learn interesting things about Overseas Hokkien forms spoken in Jakarta, Yangon, Bandung, Phuket, Trang, Cebu, and possibly Palembang and Surabaya. Now Hokkien may be extinct in Jakarta, Yangon, Palembang and Surabaya and is in trouble in Phuket, Bandung and Cebu (Kirinputra 2014).

The first group, called Eastern Hokkien, is in the north and encompasses Taiwan (Kirinputra 2014).

The second group, which we shall call Malayland Hokkien for lack of a better term, is spoken in Malaysia and in Indonesia in Sumatra and Kalimantan. Malayland is heavily laced with Teochew.

However, the Hokkien spoken in the Philippines is classed as Malayland Hokkien because it is intelligible with Southern Malayland Hokkien even though it is in the east.

Malayland is split into two languages, Southern Malayland Hokkien and Northern Malayland Hokkien. The first language, Northern Malayland Hokkien, was formerly spoken in Northern Malaysia from Taiping along the coast formerly all the way to Phuket, Thailand but is now spoken for the most part only to Penang and over to Terangganu in Malaysia and in Medan and other places in Northern Sumatra in Indonesia.

The language is also referred to as Penang Hokkien or Medan Hokkien, after the very similar dialects spoken in those cities. Terangganu Hokkien is different. On Penang Island, two dialects are spoken, Baba Hokkien, which is heavily-creolized, and Sin Khek Hokkien, a more pure variety. There are also differences between Penang Island Hokkien and Butterworth Hokkien spoken in Butterworth just across the strait.

Hokkien is still very widely spoken in Penang, and it is possible to go through your entire day speaking nothing but Hokkien.

Northern Malayland is still spoken up into Thailand towards Phuket and in the Burmese Panhandle all the way to Rangoon. In Myanmar, the speakers are mostly elderly, and the language is dying out. Burmese Hokkien looks very much like Penang because many speakers came from Penang to Rangoon. Northern Malayland is still spoken in Surat Thani on the east side of the peninsula in Thailand by a few older speakers. On the Phuket side of the peninsula facing the Indian Ocean, it has been decimated.

All varieties of Northern Malayland are apparently mutually intelligible.

Speakers of Northern Malayland have a hard time understanding the Southern Malayland spoken in Klang and Malacca. Southern Malayland speakers in general say they cannot understand Penang.

Northern Malayland Hokkien is more of a Zhangzhou variety in terms of its accent. It is also heavily creolized, with a lot of Malay and Thai embedded deeply in the language. The differences between the two Malayland Hokkien languages are as great as between Hokkien and Teochew. Intelligibility between the two may be as low as 50%.

In Kuala Lumpur and Selangor, Southern and Northern Malayland mix, and it is difficult to say which language is being spoken here. However, the variety spoken in Selangor, Selangor Hokkien, is best described as Southern Malayland, as they cannot understand Penang well. Hokkien is still very widely spoken in Selangor.

The second language, Southern Malayland Hokkien, encompasses Southern Malaysia from Johor up to Kelantan where it is known as in the cities of Selangor, Kelang, Malacca, Muar, Tangkak, Segamat, Batu Pahat, Pontian, Singapore, Riau, the Riau Islands, and Johor Bahru. Kelang Hokkien, and Johor Hokkien are recognized as specific dialects, and Hokkien is still very widely spoken in both cities.

It is also widely spoken in Singapore and Brunei. In Indonesia, it is spoken in the state of Riau as Riau Hokkien, which is very close to Singapore Hokkien, and the city of Bagansiapiapi on Sumatra. It is also spoken in Bangkok, Thailand and in Saigon, Vietnam, where it is dying out (Kirinputra 2014).

Southern Malayland is less creolized than Northern Malayland, if it is creolized at all. Southern Malayland is more of a Xiamen Hokkien variety, while Northern is a type of Zhangzhou.

Kelantan, Kelantanese or Kelantan Peranakan Hokkien is spoken in the Malay state of Kelantan. It is wildly creolized with Malay and is probably not intelligible with any other form of Hokkien.

The variety of Hokkien spoken in Kuching, Sarawak, Kuching Hokkien, is also very different and is said to resemble Kelantan Hokkien. Nevertheless the Hokkien dialect situation in Kelantan is poorly understood, and there are said to be two different types of Hokkien spoken in this area, Kelantan Hokkien A and Kelantan Hokkien B (Kirinputra 2014). Kelantanese is still widely spoken.

The version of Southern Malayland Hokkien spoken in Singapore is called Singapore Hokkien and is based on Amoy, and possibly even more on Jinmen, but speakers also came from Tong’an, Zhangzhou, Quanzhou, Anxi, and Hui’an. It is similar to Taiwanese, but Singaporean speakers can no longer understand Taiwanese well, though they have partial understanding of it. For instance, they have only 30-40% intelligibility with Yilan Taiwanese Hokkien.

Southern Malayland lies between Northern Malayland and Taiwanese Hokkien on the continuum.

A Singapore speaker, if immersed in Taiwan, could pick up Taiwanese fairly quickly, within three months.

Singapore has been isolated from Taiwanese for quite some time, so it has retained older features that are losing ground in mainland Hokkien varieties. Word-final unvoiced stops p, t and k and starting to be lost in Zhangzhou on the mainland and replaced with a glottal stop, whereas in Singapore, they are still preserved.

Many Malay, Cantonese and Teochew words have gone into Singapore which hinder understanding with Taiwanese speakers. Mutual intelligibility between Singapore and Hokkien is ~55%. Similarly, Singapore is no longer intelligible with Amoy.

Singapore speakers, even the older ones, now mix a lot of Mandarin, English and Malay in with their speech. They have been isolated from the main Hokkien-speaking communities in Amoy and Taiwan for so long that they have lost many of the subtler aspects of the language spoken in these areas.

Singapore has withered into a weakened and corrupted version of the more pure Hokkien spoken in Taiwan and Fujian. Further, the language has changed a lot since the Singaporean speakers left the region, and Singaporean Hokkien speakers have not kept up with the continuously evolving Hokkien language spoken in the Hokkien homeland.

Singaporean has also become so heavily admixed with Teochew that it is more properly seen as Hokkien-Teochew than Hokkien Proper.

Singapore has good intelligibility with Philippines Hokkien.

All varieties of Southern Malayland Hokkien spoken in Malaysia and Indonesia are fully intelligible with Singapore Hokkien.

A very pure dialect of Southern Malayland is spoken in the Indonesian city of Bagansiapiapi as Bagansiapiapi or Bagan Hokkien. It has avoided the Mandarinization of Hokkien that is occurring elsewhere. It also lacks influence from Cantonese and Teochew and has fewer loans from Austronesian and English compared to neighboring Southern Malayland or Philippines Hokkien speakers (Kirinputra 2014).

Much of the good intelligibility between Bagan and Taiwanese seems to be due to bilingual learning. They speak like the Hokkien speakers of Tong’an, China. There are only a few thousand speakers remaining, and the language seems to be on its way out.

Another very pure version is the moribund Southern Malayland dialect still spoken by a few people in Saigon, Saigon Hokkien (Kirinputra 2014).

The Southern Malayland dialect spoken in Bangkok is called Bangkok Hokkien and contains Malay loans.

This seems to imply a large trading community involving Saigon, Bangkok and Malayland which exchanged words via different speech forms (Kirinputra 2014).

Intelligibility of Bangkok and Saigon with the rest of Southern Malayland is not known, but it is assumed to be full.

The version of Southern Malayland spoken in the Philippines is called Banlam-ue, Banlamhue, Binamhue, Lanlang-ue, Minnanhua or Philippines Hokkien by speakers. Although its tones are quite different from Indonesian Southern Malayland Hokkien, the two varieties are fully intelligible. Hence Philippines Hokkien is a dialect of Southern Malayland.

Philippines is not readily intelligible with Standard Hokkien. Speakers came to the Philippines long ago, so their Hokkien contains many old words that have fallen out of other Hokkien varieties. It derives from the Jinjiang and Sheshi dialects on the outskirts of Quanzhou. Lanlang-ue means “our language.” Minnanhua is the name of this language in Mandarin (Kirinputra 2014).

At present, it is not intelligible with Quanzhou or Xiamen. That is, Philippines speakers claim that they can only understand about 70% of Taiwanese television.

Despite intelligibility issues, Philippines and Taiwanese have a very similar lexicon. The lexicons of both are similar to Amoy speech. Apparently the Amoy-Luzon-Taiwan trade route produced a convergence in the lexicons of these varieties (Kirinputra 2014). Philippines is full of Tagalog words. Philippines, like Northern Malayland, resembles Zhangzhou from the late 1800’s.

Phillippines is spoken in Manila, Cebu, Zambaonga, Sulu, and Jolo. The standard is based on the variety spoken in Manila. Zamboanga Hokkien differs from Manila Hokkien in that it has more Spanish and Chavacano borrowings and fewer Tagalog words. The dialect on Sulu Island, Sulu Hokkien, is different from the rest of Philippines, sounding more like Amoy and Taiwanese with a trace of Singapore. Cebu Hokkien, spoken on Cebu, resembles Jolo Hokkien, which is spoken on the far southern island of Jolo.

Cebu and Jolo Islands were part of an important route for smuggling goods into the Philippines for centuries. Most of the smugglers were Hokkien Chinese. Philippines is still widely spoken on Sulu, in Zamboanga and in the Binondo region of Manila. Cebu is in trouble with a declining number of speakers. The situation with Jolo is not known.

Southern Malayland, Riau, Klang, Johor, Singapore, Saigon, Bangkok, Bagansiapiapi, Northern Malayland, Penang, Medan, Baba, Shin Kek, Terangganu, Myanmar, Kelantan, Kelantan A, Kelantan B, Kuching, Philippines, Manila, Zamboanga, Sulu, Jolo, Cebu, Yilan, Amoy, Tong’an, Jinmen, Taiwanese, Tainan, Taipei City, Sulim, Taichung, Lugang, Gaoxiong, Quanzhou, Shishi, Jinjiang, Longhai, Hui’an, Anxi, Nan’an, Dehua, Zhangzhou, Zhangpu, Yinchuan, Dongshan, Yunxiao, Zhao’an, Zhangping, and Pinghe are all part of Hokkien, which has 54 lects, eight of which are separate languages.

There are 30 million speakers of Hokkien.

Southern Min: Chaoshan Min or Teochew

Chaoshan Min or Teochew is a macrolanguage spoken in a nine-county region of Guangdong. It is also spoken a lot in Thailand. Most Overseas Chinese in Thailand speak Teochew. The Mandarin name for the language is Chaozhou, but Teochew speakers do not accept that appellation and prefer Teochew instead.

Dialects of Teochew include Chaozhou Teochew, Jieyang or Kek’iôⁿ Teochew, Puning Teochew, Chenghai Teochew, Shantou Teochew, Chaoyang Teochew, Raoping Teochew, Jindengzhan Teochew, Nanao Teochew, Huidong Teochew, Huilai Teochew, Jiexi Teochew, Dabu Teochew, and Fengshun Teochew.

Standard Teochew is based on Chaozhou Teochew or what was formerly the Fucheng language.

Chaoyang Teochew is a highly divergent Teochew lect. The other Teochew varieties cannot understand Chaoyang.

Shantou Teochew, Raoping Teochew and Jieyang Teochew are spoken outside of the Chaoyang-speaking area which hugs the coastline southwest of the Shantou area (Kirinputra 2014), which may explain why they have a hard time understanding Chaoyang.

Shantou is more intelligible with Hokkien than other types of Teochew, but intelligibility is still only 54%. However, Hokkien is utterly unintelligible with Jieyang (Kirinputra 2014). This implies that Shantou and Jieyang are quite different. The implication is that Jieyang Teochew is a separate language.

Shantou speakers cannot understand Chaozhou, as Shantou is quite a bit different from the other Teochew lects, and they also seem to have a hard time understanding other Teochew lects, as they say the Teochew changes every hour or so as you travel and becomes difficult to understand. Shantou Teochew is a separate Teochew language.

Sources report that Teochew varieties can vary greatly in the pronunciation of even single words, and the tones can be quite different too.

Intelligibility data for Raoping, Huilai Teochew, and Jindengzhan Teochew with the rest of Teochew is not known.

Teochew was formed by a group of Hokkien Min speakers who broke off from Zhangzhou Hokkien about 600-1,100 years ago. They moved down to Northeastern Guangdong, and after hundreds of years, a heavy dose of some sort of unknown substrate languages went into the language, possibly including a Cantonese-type variety, producing modern Teochew (Kirinputra 2014).

Teochew has only 51% intelligibility with Xiamen (Cheng 1997).

Overseas Teochew is a significant branch of Teochew that is spoken outside of the Teochew are in China in Vietnam, Cambodia, Thailand, Malaysia, Indonesia, and the Philippines. Overseas Teochew is an extremely variable macrolanguage consisting of a number of different languages.

Malayland Teochew is spoken in Malaysia, Singapore and Indonesia. Malayland Teochew, instead of being a language, is a macrolanguage composed of several languages.

The Teochew variant spoken in Malaysia, Malay Teochew, is composed of many highly variant lects. A different Teochew variety is spoken in each subregion, and varieties sometimes differ dramatically in pronunciation and tones. Whether or not they are mutually intelligible is not known.

Malay Teochew is spoken in four different places in Malaysia in two places at the southern tip of the peninsula and in Kedah and North Perak on the far northwestern coast where there are substantial Teochew populations. Malay is not intelligible with other SE Asian Teochew varieties. Malay has converged more with Hokkien than other types of Teochew.

It seems logical to split at least North Perak Teochew and Kedah Teochew along with Southern Malay Teochew A and Southern Malay Teochew B for the time being.

Singapore Teochew is different from Malay, and both have undergone separate divergent influences, so each one should be regarded as a separate language. However, Singapore Teochew is similar to Shantou because most Singaporean speakers came from there. Singaporean is regarded by Teochew speakers on the mainland as a heavily corrupted and impure variety of Teochew. Singaporean is not intelligible with any of the Teochew spoken in China anymore, not even the Shantou that it came from.

It has come under such heavy influence from Singaporean Hokkien that it is not better regarded as Singaporean Teochew-Hokkien than a pure Teochew tongue. Many of the original Teochew terms have been replaced with Hokkien words. It is also now heavily admixed with Malay and a lot of the characteristics of Mainland Teochew have been lost.

There are variations even among Singaporean Teochew. Speakers of some of the coarser, more rural dialects can only understand 50% of the purer varieties. This is derived from the early days when only some of the immigrants from Shantou were educated and most were uneducated peasants. The peasants did not speak the same higher, more refined Shantou than the educated people did.

In time, the differences became more dramatic. As these varieties still exist, we can call them High Singaporean Teochew and Low Singaporean Teochew, two separate languages. Lo Thia Khiang, the leader of Singapore’s Workers Party, speaks High Singaporean Teochew and is poorly understood by speakers of Low Singapore Teochew.

The variety spoken in Medan, Indonesia on Sumatra, Medan Teochew, is particularly interesting. It has heavy Malay, Hokkien and Cantonese influence and cannot be understood by other Teochew speakers (Kirinputra 2014). The town of Brahang 12 miles from Medan speaks Teochew.

Teochew is also spoken in other places in Indonesia such as Riau, Dabo Singrep, Tanjung Penang, Bantam Island, and Pontianak.

The Teochew spoken in Indochina – in particular in Vietnam and Cambodia (Indochinese Teochew) is a macrolanguage. Some Indochinese Teochew speakers who have returned to their family villages on the mainland say they could only understand 70% of the speech there.

Cambodian Teochew speakers say that Cambodian Teochew, Vietnamese Teochew, and Thai Teochew are all separate languages, and they cannot understand each other (Tek 2016).

Thailand Teochew or Diojiu-we is spoken in Thailand. The Chinese lingua franca in Thailand is not Mandarin but Teochew. There are 5 million Chinese Thais with roots in the Teochew region, and 3 million of them speak Diojiuwe.

Teochew is spoken in the Philippines, but there is little information available about Philippines Teochew.

Chaoyang, Shantou, Raoping, Jieyang, Huilai, Jindengzhan, Thai, Cambodian, Vietnamese, Medan, Singapore, Malay, Kedah, North Perak, Southern Malay A and B, Borneo, and Philippines are part of the Teochew, which has 17 lects 12 of which are separate languages.

Teochew has 10 million speakers.

Southern Min: Hailufeng, Zhenan, Hainanese, Leizhou, Shaojiang, Puxian, Zhongshan, Coastal, She and Datian Min

Hailufeng Min

Hailok’hong, Hailufeng or Haklau Min is a separate language in Southern Min that represents a later move of Zhangzhou speakers 400-500 years ago towards Northeastern Guangdong by the same group that formed Teochew. Since then there has been convergence with Teochew (Kirinputra 2014). It also has substantial Hakka influence. Hailok’hong (Haklau) Min is spoken down the coast between the Teochew zone and the Hong Kong area.

Hailufeng Min is usually better known as Hailok’hong or Haklou Min. It has at least three dialects, Haifeng Hailufeng Min, Lufeng Hailufeng Min, and Shanwei Hailufeng Min, and has limited intelligibility of Teochew proper.

The city of Haifeng has mostly Hailufeng speakers. Lufeng is spoken in the western half of Lufeng. Shanwei is the name of the prefectural city that encompasses Lufeng and Haifeng Counties. Shanwei Min is spoken more in the urban area of Shanwei.

Intelligibility among the three main Hailufeng Min varieties is full.

There is a group of Hailufeng speakers who originally came from Shanwei living in Hong Kong as part of the Tanka fisherpeople community. They live in the northern part of Hong Kong north of the Hokkien-speaking Tankas. They originally came from the Shanwei area which is just to the north. We will call them Hong Kong Tanka Hailufeng Min for now. Intelligibility data for this lect is not available.

Many insist that Hailufeng is a Teochew language because this area was redistricted into the Teochew area administratively in the 20th Century. Chinese people are jealously loyal to their home districts and see all languages spoken in their district in geographical and not linguistic terms. So to admit that Hailufeng is not Teochew would be a sort of treason to the homeland if you will (Kirinputra 2014). The area where the language is spoken along the coast of Guangdong is actually to the south of the Teochew area.

Hailufeng is said to be halfway between Teochew and Zhangzhou. Hailok’hong or Haklou etymologically is Haihong + Lok’hong, which is the same thing Haifeng + Lufeng, so it is a combination of Haifeng and Lufeng. Haklau is also cognate with Hokkien Holo and Cantonese Hoklo, referring either to Taiwanese Hokkien or Teochew. In an overall sense, it meant Hokkien + Teochew, which is a good description of the language (Kirinputra 2014). Hailufeng is still confused a lot with Hokkien in many casual descriptions.

Many Hailufeng speakers can now understand Teochew, but that is due to bilingual learning (Kirinputra 2014).

Lufeng is said to have over 90% intelligibility with Xiamen Hokkien, but if it is really halfway between Teochew and Hokkien, it should have 75% intelligibility instead. Intelligibility testing may be needed. There are 3 million speakers of Hailufeng Min.

Zhenan Min

Zhenan Min, spoken in pockets in Yixing, Anji, and Linan in Southern Jiangsu and Wenzhou in Changxing in Southern Zhejiang Province around Pingyang and Cangnan and in the Zhoushan Islands, is a separate language. Speakers are found in Anhui Guangde, Nigguo, Langxi, the eastern part of Wuhu, Jiangxi Shangrao, Yushan Island, and Guangfeng County, in addition to Pucheng on the northern border of Fujian. It is spoken along the coast far to the north of the general Min-speaking area.

Zhenan Min has 574,000848,000 speakers. Zhenan Min is influenced by Eastern and Northern Min and has limited intelligibility with other Min languages. In the area around Wenzhou, it has come under heavy Wenzhou Wu and Manhua Wu influence. Zhenan Min is still confused with Hokkien in casual descriptions.

Intelligibility among Zhenan Min varieties is not known. Zhenan Min is a result of a migration of Hokkien speakers from Hui’an, Jinjiang, Quanzhou, Nan’an, Xiamen, and Jinmen to the area in middle of the Ming Dynasty about 800 years ago due to pirate attacks and civil wars in the region they fled from. Once they arrived at their new home, high waves prevented them from returning, so they decided to make their new homes here in the north.

Jujiang Zhenan Min is spoken in Taishan County near the Manhua-speaking area.

Baizhang Zhenan Min is spoken as a dialect island in the south of Taishan County. It has come under severe influence from Luoyang Wu and Manhua. It is presently near extinction. Baizhang appears to be a dialect of Jujiang.

Ruoshan Zhenan Min has heavy Wu influence.

Taishun Zhenan Min has 14,000 speakers

Dongtou Zhenan Min has 52,000 speakers,

Pingyang Zhenan Min has 243,000 speakers

Cangnan Zhenan Min has 484,000 speakers.

In Yixing County, half the population speaks Zhenan Min.

Peng River, Fenwenxiang, Lake, Changxing, Liyang, Sanyang, Shiyang, Pengxi, Jujiang, Baizhang, Pingyang Aojiang, Yushan Island, Jingning, Yixing, Anji, Anhui Guangde, Taishun, Nigguo, Langxi, Northern Rui’an, Ni Island, Wuhu, Wenling Shitang, Dongtou, Ruoshan, Jiangxi Shangrao, Shengshi Island, Guangfeng, Linan, South Cangnan, Dongtou ,Yuhuan, Longhai, Lengkeng, Zhangpu, Anxi, Hui’an, Kengkou, Lengkugang, and Tong’an are all part of Zhenan Min, which has at least 41 lects.

Qiongwen Min (Hainanese and Leizhou Min)

Qiongwen Min is spoken on Hainan Island and to the north on the mainland. It has two divisions, Hainanese Min and Leizhou Min.

Hainanese Min has 8 million speakers, 5 million on Hainan and 3 million more overseas. It has the lowest intelligibility with the rest of Southern Min of all of the other Min Nan lects.

Qiongwen itself has 16 separate lects, all spoken on Hainan. Whether any of them are separate languages is not known. It is split into various lects, which in turn are split into various sublects.

The Funcheng Group of Hainanese Min is divided into nine lects, Chengmai Hainanese Min, Dingan Hainanese Min, Haikou Hainanese Min, Changliu Hainanese Min, Lingao Hainanese Min, Qiongzhong Hainanese Min, Qionghoi Hainanese Min, Bun-Sio Hainanese Min, and Tunchang Hainanese Min.

Intelligibility data is not available for Haikou Hainanese Min and Qionghoi Hainanese Min, but most of the vocabulary is not the same in these two lects.

Haikou Hainanese Min is spoken in Haikou City and a few miles away in Qiongshan County. There are no significant differences between the language of Haikou City districts and the suburbs.

Changliu city, six miles to the west, speaks Changliu Hainanese Min, a very closely related variety which appears to be intelligible with Haikou.

In between, residents speak both Changliu and Haikou.

Changliu is closely related to Lingao Hainanese Min spoken in Lingao County, and the two are mutually intelligible.

Chengmai Hainanese Min is spoken near Haikou.

A grammar written around 1900 on the Bun-Sio dialect of Hainanese Min stated that a number of the more distant Hainanese Min varieties were “perfectly unintelligible” to Bun-Sio Hainanese Min speakers (De Souza 1903).

Bun-Sio is spoken in an area called the Bun-Sio District, also known as the Wenchang District, on Hainan. This region encompasses the far northeastern end of the island. There are also Hainanese Min speakers in Malaysia and Vietnam. These speakers speak a version of Bun-Sio which looks a lot like the type described 100 years ago.

From a glance at this grammar, Bun-Sio or Wenchang Hainanese Min has more of a Tai-Kadai substrate than Southern Min in general. There is also a trace of Cantonese and more of a Mandarin influence than in the rest of Hokkien and Teochew. All in all, it is probably acceptable to split off Bun-Sio as a separate language.

Hainanese tones also vary from region to region, once again implying more than one language. The Hainanese Min tone system does not seem to be well described.

Leizhou Min is made up of two main groups: Leizhou Min and Zhanjiang Min. Leizhou Min is a separate language, and it has a close relationship with Hainanese. Nevertheless, Leizhou consists of seven different lects. Haikang is a dialect of Leizhou.

At least some of the other six Leizhou varieties are very different in phonology and lexicon. Intelligibility data is not known, but they may be mutually intelligible. Leizhou, with four million speakers, has low intelligibility with other Min varieties and has only 85% intelligibility with Hainanese, similar to Spanish and Portuguese.

Zhanjiang Min is apparently not intelligible with Leizhou. It is spoken in Zhanjiang City in the far southwest of Guangdong. It seems to be a separate language.

Shaojiang Min or Min Gan

Shaojiang Min or Min Gan is a completely separate high-level division of Southern Min. It is spoken in Nanping County in the far northwest of Fujian bordering the Northern Min and Wu-speaking area to the east by about 984,000 people. It has four languages inside of it – Shaowu Shaojiang Min, Guangze Shaojiang Min, Jiangle Shaojiang Min, and Shunchang Shaojiang Min – that have limited mutual intelligibility. There are subdialects within these larger lects.

The substratum of Shaojiang is not for the most part Min, Gan or Hakka – instead, it is the ancient Baiyue language, however, there are lesser Hakka and Gan influences. Others say that this is not Southern Min at all. Instead it is a division of Northern Min where Central Min is also included. This would make sense due to its location and the fact that Shaojiang split away from Northern Min several hundred years ago. These are Northern Min speakers who came under heavy influence of Hakka, Gan, and Baiyue.

Shaowu, Guangze, Jiangle, and Shunchang are all part of Shaojiang, which has four lects, all are separate languages.

Puxian Min

Puxian Min or Hinghua has already been identified as a separate language. It is spoken on the southeast coast of Fujian. Puxian Min is thought to have a close relationship with Hokkien. It was probably a Proto-Hokkien variety that broke away and came under serious Eastern Min influence and hence became a separate language.

It has limited intelligibility of other Min languages – for instance, Puxian Min has 60% intelligibility of Xiamen Hokkien Min, but the mutual intelligibility is lopsided, as Xiamen intelligibility with Puxian Min is lower at 30% (Terng 2016). Hence Puxian-Xiamen intelligibility is only 45% (Terng 2016).

The name is derived from the names of two different cities in China where this language is spoken – “Pu” for Putian and “Xian” for Xianyou.

Puxian Min has seven dialects. There is full intelligibility between all of the dialects, although there are some minor pronunciation and vocabulary differences (Terng 2016). The two main divisions of Puxian Min are into Putian Puxian Min and Xianyou Puxian Min, hence the name Puxian Min being a mix of the two main varieties. Both are dialects of the main Puxian Min language.

There are at least four subdialects spoken in Putian County, all subdialects of Putian Puxian Min. They are Jiangyou Putian Puxian Min, Changli Putian Puxian Min, two spoken in Putian City called North Putian City Puxian Min and South Putian City Puxian Min. There are other Putian Puxian varieties spoken in the county to the north and south of the Putian City other than Chengli and Jiangyou, but their names are not known. We will call them North Putian County Puxian Min and South Putian County Puxian Min.

There are three dialects spoken in Xianyou County, one in Xianyou City called Xianyou City Puxian Min or Central Xianyou Puxian Min, another in the north of the county called North Xianyou County Puxian Min, and a third in the south of county called South Xianyou County Puxian Min. All are subdialects of a single dialect of Puxian Min, Xianyou Puxian Min. All three subdialects are fully intelligible with each other with only some minor differences in pronunciation and some different vocabulary (Terng 2016).

For instance, North Xianyou kou, “to throw,” is lacking in Xianyou City.

South Xianyou has [i] and [e] for [y] and [ɵ] in Xianyou City and

North Xianyou has [θ] for Xianyou City [ɬ] (Terng 2016).

Xianyou city trades a lot with the north and south of the county, so there is a lot of contact between the subdialects. The city gets rice and rice-derived goods from the south and fish and shellfish from the south.

There is also a lot of intermarriage between speakers of the three subdialects. Most speakers of one of the Xianyou dialects have relatives who speak another of the dialects. The only research on Xianyou Putian Min has focused on the dialect of the city – Central Xianyou – with other two dialects being poorly known (Terng 2016).

Intelligibility between Xianyou and Putian Puxian Min is good at 90%-100%. There are some vocabulary differences.

For instance, “white”: Xianyou City pann, Chengli Putian 城里, Putian City pa; “officer”: Xianyou City kuann, Chengli Putian melon kua, are two pairs that cause some confusion. In these cases, Chengli Putian has lost nasalization that Xianyou City has retained. As we shall see below, loss of final nasalization is not just seen in Chengli Putian but in all of Putian. Nevertheless, Xianyou City intelligibility of Chengli Putian is full at 100% (Terng 2016).

There is some different vocabulary there too, and in some cases of common words, the differences are striking.

For instance, “children”: Xianyou kann en, Putian ta a; “wet”: Xianyou iunn, Putian tang. Once again we see than Xianyou has retained the older nasalization, whereas it appears that all of Putian, not just Chengli, has lost it (Terng 2016).

There are also rhyme differences between Putian and Xianyou. Xianyou has retained more rhymes at 50 rhymes, whereas Chengli Putian has 40, and Jiangyou Putian has 36 rhymes (Terng 2016).

So in addition to loss of nasalization, there may have been rhyme reduction in Putian also. It appears that Xianyou may be the older form of the Puxian Min language and that Putian broke away from it more recently.

Jiangyou Putian’s 36 rhymes versus Xianyou’s 50 rhymes leads to some difficulties in communication, however, Xianyou retains full intelligibility of Jiangyou at 90% (Terng 2016).

However, there is a form of Puxian Min spoken in Singapore, Hinghua Puxian Min, which lacks full intelligibility with Puxian Min in China. Hinghwa Puxian Min speakers are a minority in Singapore, and their language has mixed a lot with Singapore Hokkien, Malay, English, and other languages spoken in Singapore, resulting in a separate language.

South Putian City, North Putian City, Chengli, Jiangyou, North Putian County, and South Putian County are part of Putian Puxian Min.

Xianyou City or Central, South Xianyou, and North Xianyou are part of Xianyou Puxian Min.

Xianyou City, South Xianyou, North Xianyou, South Putian City, North Putian City, Chengli, Jiangyou, North Putian County, South Putian County, and Highwa are all part of Puxian Min, which has 10 lects, two of which are separate languages.

Zhongshan Min

In Guangdong Province in the Pearl River Delta near Hong Kong, there is a a large, divergent split in Min Nan called Zhongshan Min.

Zhongshan Min, a macrolanguage, has 130-150,000 speakers and has limited intelligibility with other Min lects. It is located to the south of Hailufeng Min just north of the Cantonese zone along the Southern Guangdong Coast.

This group is possibly a Northern or Eastern Min group stranded far down in Guangdong. They are sometimes referred to in old literature as “Northeastern Min”. That’s not really a category. It often means Northern Min, but sometimes it means Eastern Min. These languages have all borrowed extensively from Siyi Cantonese spoken in the Pearl River Delta.

Looking at the whole picture, it appears that various immigrants speaking Puxian Min, Northern Min, and Southern Min all settled around Zhongshan. These various Min elements, along with a hefty dose of Cantonese, have gone into the creation of Zhongshan Min.

Two Zhongshan lects, Namlong or Zhangjiabian Zhongshan Min (also spoken in Zhongshan), and Sanxiang Zhongshan Min, are separate languages. Each one is a dialect island surrounded by Cantonese speakers, and all three populations are unconnected.

Namlong is spoken 10 miles southeast of Zhongshan in Cuiheng. It is also spoken in Namlong and Zhangjiabian.

Sanxiang is spoken to the south of Zhongshan in the hilly rural areas.

The third is called Longdu Min and is also a separate language (evidence here and here). It is spoken in the southwest corner of Zhongshan City in Shaxi and Dayong.

In Chinese, Longdu, Namlong and Sanxiang are referred to as All-Lung Min, South Gourd Min, and Three Rural Min respectively. Sources give Longdu and Namlong 100,000 speakers and Sanxiang 30,000 speakers. 14% of the population of Zhongshan speaks Zhongshan Min. Namlong now has mostly elderly speakers.

Sanxiang, Namlong, and Longdu are apparently not mutually intelligible, although Namlong is close to Longdu.

Sanxiang is more divergent. Further, there are more dialects within these three languages, and dialectal divergence is considerable.

Sanxiang Min has at least two dialects, Phao Zhongshan Min and Tiopou Zhongshan Min. Phao is fairly uniform across a number of villages, but Tiopou is quite different. Nevertheless, there is near-full intelligibility between Phao and Tiopou (Bodman 1988).

For now, it is best to list Sanxiang, Namlong, and Longdu as separate languages, with possible dialects Phao, Tiopou, Namlong A, Namlong B, Longdu A, and Longdu B, among them.

Longyan Min or Coastal Min

Longyan Min or Coastal Min (Branner 2008) is a separate language. It is spoken in Longyan City’s Xinluo District and Zhangping City deep inside Fujian to the west of the Hokkien-speaking area. There is an overseas group of Coastal Min speakers in Malaysia in Penang around Parit Buntar. Although the language has been dying out in Malaysia for some time now, the language is still quite alive in Parit Buntar.

The language has anywhere from 300,000 (Branner 2008) to 740,000 speakers and has limited intelligibility with other Min languages. It has heavy Hakka influence due to the large number of Hakka speakers in the surrounding areas. Some put Coastal Min in a Southern Min Nan division of its own, others put it in Hokkien, and others put it outside of all other major Min varieties in its own Min category. The best analysis seems to be that it belongs in its own Southern Min division.

Koongfu Coastal Min and Shizhong Coastal Min are dialects of Coastal Min, but on examination, they are quite different. Koongfu is spoken in Kanshi Township in Yongding County. Shizhong is spoken in Southern Longyan County. Considering the rather extreme divergence of Coastal Min varieties in Wan’an, Koongfu Coastal Min and Shizhong Coastal Min are separate languages.

Another Coastal Min group is best called Wan’an Coastal Min. This is actually a macrolanguage comprising a number of separate languages in Wan’an County of Fujian.

Wan’an and Longyan are not mutually intelligible (Branner 2008).

Wan’an is a small township in northwestern Longyan County in Western Fujian which consists of very rugged, hard to access mountains with scattered very isolated villages made up of poor farmers. Some of these villages were visited for the first time by a Westerner only in the 20 years (Branner 2000).

To give you an idea of how remote the area is, to walk between two villages in Wan’an would take six difficult and confusing hours down ancient cobblestone paths through dark forests. But to take a bus between the two towns that are six hours walking distance away would take three days (Branner 2000)!

There are 13 varieties of Wan’an Min spoken in Western Fujian.

Among them are Wenheng Longgang Wan’an Coastal Min, Xi Wan’an Coastal Min, Xiangxi Wan’an Coastal Min, Shikou Wan’an Coastal Min, Wuzhai Longyan Wan’an Coastal Min, Songyang Longyan Wan’an Coastal Min, Baisha Youshui Longyan Wan’an Coastal Min, Tutan Longyan Wan’an Coastal Min, Shiahtsuen Buhyun Liliing Wan’an Coastal Min, Shanghang Buhyun Liliing Wan’an Coastal Min, Shanghang Gutian Laifang Wan’an Coastal Min, Shanghang Guanzhuang Shangzhuo Wan’an Coastal Min, and Shanghang Baisha Pengxin Wan’an Coastal Min. All are spoken in Wan’an township except  Shiahtsuen Buhyun Liling, which is spoken in Laiyuan Township in Southeastern Liancheng County (Branner 2000).

With many of these lects, they don’t understand each other at first, but after they talk to each other for a while, they start to figure out the other variety (Branner 2008). Owing to difficult intelligibility from village to village, the best analysis seems to be that all of the above are separate languages. Intelligibility among the Wan’an languages is ~70%.

Coastal Min seems to have about 85% intelligibility with Taiwanese Min. The intelligibility of Coastal Min with Penang Northern Malayland Hokkien is very poor.

She Min

A very strange variety called She Min is spoken by the She people in Zhejiang, Fujian and Guangdong. The She language was originally Hmong-Mien, which then added a Cantonese layer, then a Hakka layer, next a Min layer, and in Zhejiang, a Wu layer. It is best described as a Hmong-Mien language that has been Sinicized. There are probably 200,000 speakers of this language.

Zhejiang She Min is no doubt a separate language due to the distance between it and the other two principal varieties in addition to the Wu layer.

Fujian She Min is also a separate language.

In Eastern Guangdong, the She speak Chaosan or Teochew She Min. They live in the Phoenix Mountains in Chao’an County in Chaozhou Prefecture. The language has had heavy contact with Teochew. This is probably a separate language, unintelligible with other She languages and Teochew.

There is also an original She language that is non-Sinitic (Hmong-Mien) and is spoken by only about 1,000 people in Guangdong.

Datian Min

Datian Min in Fujian is also a separate language. Datian Min is in its own group in Min Nan.


Hakka is an extremely diverse group of languages spoken in Southern China. There may be up to 1,000 lects in Hakka. The dialect situation with Hakka is quite confused and somewhat contradictory. Some speakers report adequate intelligibility between lects, while others report difficulty. There are also reports of great diversity and difficult intelligibility even from village to village in Western Fujian, Gannan County in Jiangxi and Northern Guangdong. Intelligibility testing could clear up some of the confusion.

Hakka Proper (Meixian or Moiyen, formerly Jieyang) is spoken in Mei County in Northeastern Guangdong.

Hakka is very different from all other forms of Chinese. Although Southern Min and Hakka are said to be close, Taiwanese Hokkien can understand only 1% of even Taiwanese Hakka.

Meixian Hakka is the central Hakka version used as Standard Hakka. It is at least understood by 75% of Hakka speakers, so it is often used for communicating with Hakkas who speak other Hakka languages. Meixian was chosen as the standard because the region where it is spoken is one of the major strongholds of Hakka language and culture. In addition, it has preserved most of the original Hakka phonology and has less influence from Cantonese and Hokkien.

Nevertheless, Changting Hakka preserves more of the original Hakka than Meixian does.

Xingning Hakka, Zhenping Hakka, and Wuhua Hakka are all dialects of Meixian.

Wuhua Hakka or related varieties include the varieties of Wuhua County, Jiexi Hakka, Northern Bao’an Hakka, and Eastern Dongguan Hakka in Northern Guangdong; Shaoguan Hakka in Sichuan, and Tonggu Hakka in Jiangxi.

Tonggu speakers came from Wuhua a while back. Intelligibility data for these varieties is not available, but Tonggu Hakka is in its own separate group of Hakka, so it must be a separate language.

Meixian was formerly known as Jiaying Hakka. The Hakka varieties of Meixian, Pingyuan Hakka, Dabu Hakka, Xingning, Wuhua, and Jiaoling Hakka used to be included in Jiaying.

Dapu or Dabu Hakka, while close to Meixian, is a separate language. It is spoken in Dapu County, Guangdong. Dapu was the basis for Taichung Dongshi Hakka spoken in Taiwan. Actually, Donshi Hakka was derived directly from Chisan Hakka spoken by the founder of the Hakka community in the county. However, Donshi is now very different from Chisan. Intelligibility data for Chisan is not available.

Fengshun Hakka is a dialect of Dapu. Fengshun has five different varieties. Fengshun is also spoken in Bangkok as Bangkok Fengshun Hakka. Although it has been affected by Teochew influence in Bangkok, Bangkok Fengshun is still relatively pure.

Hopo Hakka is not intelligible with Dabu, Hailu or Meixian. Hopo Hakka has deep influence from Teochew because it is located right next to the Teochew area.

Chaoyang Hakka, Jieyang Hakka, Raoping Hakka, and Huilai Hakka are all dialects of Hopo.

Longchuan Hakka in Northeastern Guangdong is a separate language, with poor intelligibility with other Hakka lects.

Longchuan has six different lects, Huangbu Hakka, Sidu Hakka, Chetian Hakka, Huiyang Hakka, Huicheng Hakka, and Tuocheng Hakka.

Longchuan has heavy Cantonese and Teochew influence. It is mostly spoken in Huicheng District and Bolou County.

Sidu and Tuocheng are close and are probably dialects of Longchuan. Sidu has 18,000 speakers.

Intelligibility data on Huangbu Hakka, Huiyang Hakka, and Chetian Hakka is not known. Huiyang is close to Hong Kong Hakka. However, diversity is great within Longchuan, and dialects differ from village, with difficult intelligibility from village to village.

Boluo Hakka and Heyuan Hakka are separate languages, not mutually intelligible.

Longchuan, Boluo and Heyuan are quite distant from other Hakka.

Huizhou Hakka is in its own group of Hakka, so it must be a separate language. Huizhou is heavily spoken in Huizhou City. Huizhou is not intelligible with Moiyen, Taipu, Hopo, or Taiwanese.

Banshan Hakka is spoken in the Chengkang District of Tangnan town in close proximity to Jindengzhan village, where Teochew is spoken, and Changlin village in Tangnan town in Fengshun, Guangdong where Hakka called Changlin Hakka is spoken. Banshan is a dialect island surrounded by Teochew. Banshan may have significant Teochew influence. Banshan is quite probably a separate language.

Liannan Hakka is spoken in Northwest Guangdong and Wengyuan Hakka is spoken in Northwest Guangdong. They are members of the Yuebai Group of Hakka, which is highly divergent.

In Northern Guangdong, there may be many different Hakka languages, since dialects tend to differ from village to village, and in many cases, communication is difficult between villages.

The Yuemin Group of Hakka from Southern Fujian and Southeastern Guangdong is a separate language.

Heyuan Hakka is spoken in Central Guangdong.

Jiexi Hakka is spoken in Southeastern Guangdong.

Dongguan Qingxi Hakka is spoken in South-Central Guangdong.

Haifeng Hakka, Lufeng Hakka, and Luhe Hakka, located near each other in Haifeng, Lufeng, and Luhe Counties in Shanwei City of Guangdong, appear to be dialects of a separate language called Hailufeng Hakka. It is spoken most heavily in Luhe County, where most people speak Hakka. This is a Hakka with heavy influence from Hailufeng Min.

Sanxiang Hakka, spoken in Zhongshan Prefecture, is different from all other Hakka. In all probability, it is a separate language.

Hong Kong Hakka is not intelligible with the Hakka spoken on Taiwan, nor with Dabu and has no intelligibility of Meixian. Hong Kong Hakka is spoken in the New Territories in Sai Kung Peninsula, Shatin, Taipo, Shataukok, Tsuen Wan, Sai Kung Yam Tin Chi, Island Bridge, Ho Sheung Heung, Yen Kong, Ebara,and Eastern Yuen Long. It is close to Huiyang and Bao’an. They came to the area from the overpopulating Eastern Guangdong around 1650. By 1700, they had built more than 400 Hakka villages in the Hong Kong area. They may have some from the Huiyang area.

Intelligibility between Hong Kong Hakka, Huiyang and Bao’an is not available.

Despite the fact that Hong Kong Hakka lects seem similar to Hakka lects spoken in Eastern and Northeastern Guangdong, many Hong Kong Hakka trace their origins to Guangxi.

Hong Kong Hakka has three principal dialects, Dongguan Hakka, Taipu Hakka, and Wakia Hakka. The language is similar to the Hakka spoken around Huiyang in Eastern Guangdong. They moved from that area to Hong Kong as the beginning of the Qing Dynasty, so they came to Hong Kong 375 years ago.

Dongguan Hakka is spoken near Hong Kong.

Taipu or Taipo Hakka is spoken in the village of the same name in Hong Kong.

Wakia Hakka is also spoken in Hong Kong.

Intelligibility between the Hong Kong varieties is not known.

A variety of Hong Kong Hakka spoken in a part of Hong Kong called Shataukok, Satdiugok, Sathewkok, Shataukok, Satdiukok or Satdiugok Hakka. It is different from the rest of Hong Kong Hakka, and evidence indicates that Shataukok Hakka may indeed be a separate language.

Shataukok has a number of dialects within it, and they are different, but they may be more or less mutually intelligible. However, the MI is difficult to characterize, as it is said that speakers of other dialects can “get the gist” of what the other speakers are saying. “Getting the gist” of a variety usually implies less than 90% intelligibility.

Another variety of Hong Kong Hakka is spoken in Shuijian Village in the southern part of Yuen Long. This lect is completely different form the rest of Hong Kong Hakka. They moved to Hong Kong from Western Fujian 150 years ago. It is said to be similar to Boluo Hakka in Northeastern Guangdong, but this has not been proven.

The best name for this is Shujian Hakka, and it is best seen as a separate language, completely apart from the rest of Hong Kong Hakka. This language is now spoken only by older people who are ashamed of their language and generally refuse to speak it with outsiders.

Located near Hong Kong, Shenzhen/Bao’an Hakka is a separate language. However, it is close to Hong Kong Hakka.

The Gannan Hakka Group spoken in Southern Jiangxi is extremely diverse compared to the Hakka of Guangdong and Fujian. Gannan Hakka varieties differ even from village to village

With Gannan, we may be dealing with a situation of many different languages, as with Wu, Hui, Tuhua, and Xiang. In fact, it quite possible that with Jiangxi Hakka, we may be dealing with every Hakka variety being a separate language.

There are two separate groups there, Bendi Hakka and Keji Hakka. Bendi varieties are some of the most divergent Hakka varieties of all, while Keji varieties are more traditional, having moved out of the core Jiaying area within the last 300 years.

Xingguo Hakka is separate language spoken in Xingguo County in Ganzhuo Prefecture.

Ningdu Hakka is in all probability a separate language.

Ruijin Hakka, spoken in Southeastern Jiangxi, is very different and may well be a separate language. It looks a lot like Gan.

Xinfeng Tieshikou Hakka is in all probability a separate language, spoken in Xinfeng County by 90% of the population.

Many extremely diverse forms of Hakka are spoken in Fujian. Sources say that each Hakka village in Western Fujian speaks its own variety, and that the varieties are far enough apart to make communication from village to village very difficult.

The wildly diverse Tingzhou Hakka Group is spoken in Western Fujian. Even within this group, there are separate languages, including Tingzhou Hakka, Yongding Hakka, Liancheng Hakka, Changting Hakka, Xinquan Hakka, Qingliu Hakka, Mingxi Hakka, Taishun Hakka, Ninghua Hakka, Basel Mission Hakka,  Sanhang Hakka, and probably Gucheng Hakka.

Hakka is also spoken in far Southern Zhejiang in Taishun County.

Taishun Hakka is spoken there, but it has only 1,600 elderly speakers. It has 2,600 speakers.

Taishun She Hakka is spoken by the She minority in that county.

In recent years, both have come under the heavy influence of Luoyang Wu, Zhenan Min and Manhua.

Zhaoan Xiuzhuan Hakka, spoken in Southern Fujian, is a separate language.

Luoyuan She Hakka is spoken in Western Fujian. It is an extremely diverse form of Hakka that differs from all other Hakka. It must surely be a separate language.

Therefore, we conclude that in addition to the above, we will add Wuping Hakka, Longyan Hakka, Zhaoan Hakka, Yunxiao Hakka, Shangsixiang Hakka, Fuding Hakka, Fuan Hakka, Gucheng Hakka and Nanjing Qujiang Hakka.

Within Longyan Hakka, in one county, Lingcheng County, there is a huge variety of dialects, including Xinquan Linguo Liancheng Hakka, Xinquan Lelian Liancheng Hakka, Pengkou Wangcheng Liancheng Hakka, Miaoqian Zhixi Liancheng Hakka, Gechuan Zhuyu Liancheng Hakka, Miaoqian Jiangshe Liancheng Hakka, Sibao Shangjian Zhenbian Liancheng Hakka, Juxi Gaoding Liancheng Hakka, Liancheng Tangqian Dikeng Liancheng Hakka, Wenheng Hengming Liancheng Hakka, Xinquan Dongnancun Liancheng Hakka, Quxi Puxi Dongxiduan Liancheng Hakka, Quxi Qiaotou Liancheng Hakka, Xuanhe Shengxing Liancheng Hakka, Pengkou Wangcheng Liancheng Hakka, and Liwu Nanban Zhangwu Liancheng Hakka (Branner 2008).

Whether these are dialects of separate languages is difficult to determine. Usually they cannot understand each other at first, but after a while, they figure out how to communicate with each other (Branner 2008). There is significant enough difficulty in communicating between these villages that a local Mandarin dialect is used for inter-village communication (Branner 2008), suggesting difficult communication from village to village. This suggests that it is valid to split all of the above off into separate languages.

Hakka is also spoken in the south of Guangxi. There are 3.6 million Hakka speakers in Guangxi.

Dayu Hakka is spoken in Southern Guangxi.

Mengshan Xihe Hakka is spoken in Eastern Guangxi.

Each one is probably a separate language.

Mashan Old Naxing Hakka is spoken in Mashan Old Naxing village in Guangxi. It is located far from other Hakka and has come under the influence of other Sinitic and non-Sinitic languages such that it is now very different. It is surely a separate language.

Binyang Hakka is also spoken in Guangxi. They are Meixian speakers who came to Guangxi 400 years ago. The language is now very different from Meixian. It is quite probably a separate language.

Hakka speakers immigrated to Sichuan a long time ago.

Chengdu Hakka is spoken in Chengdu, Sichuan. It is quite different from other forms of Hakka and has poor intelligibility with other forms. At the moment, Hakka is the main means of communication in the Jinjiang, Jinniu, Chenghua, Longquanyi, Xindu, and Qingbaijiang Districts in Chengdu.

Longcheng Hakka is spoken in Longcheng by Hakka who immigrated there a long time ago. It has since come under heavy influence from Longcheng Southwestern Mandarin.

Five Hakka varieties – Longchang, Longtanshi Hakka , Yilong Hakka, Panlong Hakka, Xindu Hakka, and Huanglianguan Hakka are the main Hakka dialect islands in Sichuan. Although they have commonalities, they are all also quite different. Quite probably all of them are separate languages.

Longtanshi Hakka speakers came from Mei County in Guangdong long ago, but now Meixian and Longtanshi are very different. It resembles Wuhua and Xingning more and has since come under heavy influence from Chengdu Southwestern Mandarin.

Yilong Hakka speakers came to Sichuan 200 years ago.

Hakka varieties are also spoken in Sansheng, Tianhui, Shiling, Xihe, Shibantan, Taixing and Longwang in Sichuan. Intelligibility data is not available for Sansheng Hakka, Tianhui Hakka, Shiling Hakka, Xihe Hakka, Shibantan Hakka, Taixing Hakka, and Longwang Hakka. All have come under heavy influence from Southwestern Mandarin.

A distinct variety of Hakka is spoken by 2,300 Hakkas in Hainan. Hainanese Hakka is distinct and unintelligible with Mainland Hakka.

On Taiwan, Sixian (Four Counties) Taiwanese Hakka, Dongshi or Dapu Taiwanese Hakka and Hailu Taiwanese Hakka are not mutually intelligible, nor is the mixed Gaoxiong Taiwanese Hakka variety created in order that these three varieties could communicate with each other.

The present koine is called Sihai Taiwanese Hakka and is a combination of Sixian Taiwanese Hakka and Hailu Taiwanese Hakka, the two most widely spoken lects. Dongshi Taiwanese Hakka comes from Dapu County, Guangdong. Hailu Hakka comes from Huizhou prefecture.

Sixian itself is currently the most widely spoken Hakka variety in Taiwan. The name comes from the four Guangdong counties of Meixian, Jiaoling, Xingning, and Pingyuan. But the Sixian speakers who came to Taiwan generally came from Jiaoling, so Sixian currently resembles Jiaoling Hakka more than Meixian. Sixian is divided into two main dialects, Miaoli Taiwanese Hakka and Liudui Taiwanese Hakka. The differences between the two appear to be great, and they may well be separate languages.

Xingning Taiwanese Hakka is also still spoken in a few places. It is probably a dialect of Sixian.

Changle Taiwanese Hakka, now almost extinct, is almost certainly a Sixian. Changle speakers came from Wuhua County in Guangdong.

Zhao’an Taiwanese Hakka is very different and must be a separate language. Zhao’an comes from the Zhao’an, Pinghe, Nanjing, and Hua’an Counties of Zhangzhou prefecture in Fujian. Raoping Taiwanese Hakka in all probability is also a separate language. Raoping speakers came from Chaozhou Prefecture, specifically the Raoping and Huilai Counties in Guangdong.

Tingzhou Taiwanese Hakka is extremely different and is surely a separate language. Tingzhou comes from the Changting, Ninghua, Qingliu, Guihua, and Liancheng Counties of Tingzhou prefecture. Tingzhou and Zhao’an are the two most divergent Hakka varieties on Taiwan. Tingzhou is hardly spoken anymore and may be extinct on Taiwan.

Fengshun Taiwanese Hakka is also spoken in Taiwan, but it may be a dialect of Dapu. Fengshun came from Fengshun and Jieyang Counties in Guangdong. Fengshun still has a few speakers left on Taiwan.

Two other lects, Yongding Taiwanese Hakka and are said to be extinct on Taiwan, though each still has a few speakers. Yongding is surely a separate language, but Yongding speakers came from Yongding, Shanghang and Wuping Counties of Tingzhou prefecture of Fujian near Zhao’an.

Western Fujian Taiwanese Hakka, Zhangzhou Taiwanese Hakka, and Sixhai Taiwanese Hakka were all formerly spoken on Taiwan but have all gone extinct. No doubt all three were separate languages.

In general, speakers of other kinds of Hakka find Taiwanese Hakka to be hard to understand, possibly due to Southern Min influence. Hakka speakers make up only 5% of the population of Taiwan. Almost all are proficient in Mandarin or Hokkien, and there are few monolinguals left.

The Hakka spoken in Kunming, Sarawak, in Malaysia is known as Ho Po Hak Hakka. It is similar to Hopo Hakka, spoken in Hopo, near Meizhou.

Although Ho Po Hak speakers make up 70% of the Sarawak Hakka population, there are also speakers of Dapu, Fengshun, Huizhou, Bao’an, Dongguan, Lufeng, Wuhua, Meixian and Yongding on Sarawak. These speakers probably cannot be classed as Ho Po Hak. Intelligibility between these forms of Sarawak Hakka, Ho Po Hak and the Hakkas they are derived from is not known. Ho Po Hak is very different from the Hakka spoken in Sabah, Malaysia.

Hakka speakers make up the majority (57%) of the Chinese in Sabah where Sabah Hakka is spoken. Many arrived in the 1860’s fleeing the massacres perpetrated by the Manchus following the failed Taiping Rebellion. This group settled in Sandakan.

Others were brought from Longchuan County, Guangdong to Kudat in 1882 as laborers by the North Borneo Chartered Company. Sabah Hakka is identical to Huiyang/Fuiyong Hakka spoken in the Huiyang District of the city of Huizhou, near Shenzhen in Guangdong. Huizhou Hakka has heavy Cantonese influence. Most people in Huizhou are Hakka speakers. The main Hakka centers in Sabah are the cities of Sandakan, Kudat, Kota Kinabalu, and Tawau.

Dapu is still spoken in Malaysia and Singapore. Kuala Lumpur Dapu Hakka is very different from the Dapu spoken in China. It is now heavily creolized with Malay. It is quite probably a separate language. It is heavily spoken in the Serdang and Ampang regions of the capital.

There are also some Hakka speakers around Ipoh. It is not known what type of Hakka they speak.

In the 1800’s, there were Hakkas speaking Jiaying Hakka (Jieyang Hakka was the old name for Meixian), Yongding, Fengshun, and Jengcheng Hakka from Guangdong in Singapore, Penang, Malacca and Tel Anson on the Malay Peninsula. Whether they are still present is not known. Meixian speakers were known from Singapore as recently as 1950. A type of Huiyang is still spoken in Penang as Penang Hakka.

Bangka Island Indonesian Hakka, spoken on Bangka Island in Indonesia, has diverged so radically with its tones that it is now a separate language. That is, speakers of other Indonesian Hakka varieties say that they cannot understand Bangka Island speakers. It’s a Hakka creole more than anything else.

In Indonesia, two other major Hakka varieties are spoken, Kun Dian Indonesian Hakka, spoken in Borneo, and Belitung (Ngion Voi) Indonesian Hakka, spoken mostly on Sumatra and Borneo.

Kun Dian is the largest Hakka group in Indonesia. Most live at Pontianak and Singkawang, where they speak two different mutually intelligible lects, but they have spread all over Indonesia. Kun Dian is also spoken in Jakarta, Medan and Surabaya. Kun Dian has 80% intelligibility of Sabah (Longchuan) and Hong Kong. Kun Dian is also similar to Hopo.

Belitung is spoken mostly on Sumatra and Borneo and is characterized by a soft way of speaking. Belitung speakers mostly derived from Meixian speakers.

Belitung and Bangka Island say they cannot understand Kun Dian, but Kun Dian speakers say they can understand the other two for the most part.

Most old people in Belitung and Singkawang are Hakka monolinguals who cannot speak Bahasa Indonesia at all. These elderly speakers have to bring interpreters with them when they go to the doctor.

A type of Meixian is spoken in East Timor as East Timor Hakka.

Although some Indonesian Hakka speakers speak a very pure Hakka similar to the Huizhou spoken on the mainland, these are mostly the oldest generation. The younger generations speak a language that is very heavily adulterated with Indonesian languages.

Wuhua, Meixian, and Dabu are members of the Xinghua subgroup of Yuetai Group of Hakka, which which has five lects. Xinghua Hakka has 3.4 million speakers (Olson 1998).

Bao’an, Lufeng, Haifeng, and Hailufeng are in the Xinhui subgroup of Yuetai Hakka, which has nine lects. Xinhui Hakka has 2.4 million speakers (Olson 1998).

The Yuetai Group of Hakka has 23 lects.

Gaoxiong, Xinzhu, Dongshi, Jiaying, and Miaoli are members of the Jiaying Group of Hakka, which has seven lects.

Tingzhou, Yongding, Liancheng, Changting, Xinquan, Basel Mission, Wuping, Ninghua, Qingliu, and Mingxi are all part of the diverse Tingzhou Group of Hakka. All told, Tingzhou Hakka has 10 lects, most of which are separate languages.

Longchuan, Boluo, and Heyuan are members of the Yuezhong Group of Hakka, which has five lects.

Huizhou in its own subgroup of Hakka.

Xingguo and Ningdu are in the Ninglong or Gannan Group of Hakka, which has 13 lects. There may be as many as 13 different languages in this group.

Dayu is a member of the Yugui Group of Hakka, which has 43 lects.

Ho Po Hak, Bangka Island, Nanjing Qujiang, Jiexi, Hong Kong, Mengshan Xihe, Zhaoan Xiuzhuan, Fuan, Fuding, and Haifeng are unclassified.

There are 12 major Hakka varieties and 210 Hakka varieties altogether. Others claim that there are over 1,000 Hakka varieties spoken in China. There are 30 million speakers of the various Hakka languages.


Xiang is already recognized as a separate language.

Shuangfeng Xiang and Changsha Xiang are separate languages, having only 47% intelligibility (Cheng 1997).

In fact, Changsha itself is divided into multiple languages in the city itself. We do not know how many there are, but we know that they exist. For the moment, we shall just add one variety to Changsha, and divide it into Changsha City Xiang A and Changsha City Xiang B, but there may be more. Furthermore, there are significant differences within the Changsha spoken in Changsha City and in the surrounding countryside.

Shuangfeng is also very different within itself, as the vocabulary changes every 10 miles or so. Intelligibility data is lacking.

Lingshuijiang Xiang, also spoken in Hunan by 300,000 people, may well be a separate language.

Shuangfeng and Lingshuijiang are both part of the Luoshao group of Xiang. Shuihui Xiang and Suantang Xiang are also part of this group, however, Shuihui is so different that it is recommended to split it from Luoshao into its own group with Suantang Xiang. Suantang itself is very different. It has Southwest Mandarin and Xiang elements along with Hmong and Dong influences.

Suantang is so different that it is controversial whether it was Southwestern Mandarin or Xiang, but the best analysis seems to be that it is a Xiang variety. Clearly Shuihui Xiang and Suantang Xiang are separate languages.

Mao Zedong spoke Xiangtan Xiang, a notoriously difficult Xiang language in Hunan, about which it was said, “No one can understand it.” Xiangtan itself is internally diverse, with differences between the dialects of the city and rural areas, but intelligibility data is lacking.

Shaoshan Xiang and Lianyuan Xiang are both spoken near Xiangtan, and both are surely separate languages. There are a number of dialects within each of these languages.

Ningxiang Xiang is said to be very different from Changsha. Given the dramatic divergence present even as background in Xiang, this must mean that Ningxiang is at least not intelligible with Changsha.

Ningxiang County is split into two separate dialects, North Ningxiang Xiang and South Ningxiang Xiang. The differences between the two are great. Upper Ningxiang Xiang looks more like a Lianyuan dialect, and Lower Ningxiang Xiang looks more like a Changsha dialect.

Beyond that, Ningxiang is split into four major divisions – Chengguan Xiang, Shuangjiangkou Xiang, Huaminglou Xiang, and Liushahe Xiang. Surely each is a separate language.

Baishi Xiang, spoken near Xiangtan, is very different.

Liling Xiang is also spoken around Xiangtan and must be a separate language.

Hengyang Xiang is apparently a separate language, as is Jishou Xiang. There is significant dialectal diversity in Hengyang Xiang, but intelligibility data is lacking.

Shaodong Xiang is spoken in Shaodong County which borders Hengyang. There are transitional dialects between the two languages on the border of the two counties.

Liuyang Xiang is a separate Xiang language, actually a macrolanguage, spoken in Liuyang county-level city in Changsha prefecture east of Changsha City near the Jiangxi border in Hunan. Liuyang is split into five divisions – North Liuyang Xiang, South Liuyang Xiang, West Liuyang Xiang, East Liuyang Xiang, and Liuyang City Xiang.

South Liuyang Xiang and East Liuyang Xiang are separate languages, mutually unintelligible with the others. Liuyang City Xiang has recently arisen as a sort of a Liuyang koine that is understandable to speakers of all Liuyang lects. None of the three Liuyang languages is intelligible with Changsha. On closer observation, none of the Liuyang varieties are intelligible with each other. Therefore, North Liuyang Xiang and West Liuyang Xiang are separate languages also.

Even within this classification, each of the five Liuyang Xiang varieties has multiple dialects. Each village is said to have its own variety in Liuyang Xiang.

Henghshan Xiang is a macrolanguage with vast dialectal divergence divided by Mount Hengshan.

There are two Hengshan varieties on either side of the mountain – Qianshan Xiang in the southeast and Houshan Xiang in the northwest – that are very different and must be separate languages.

Jiashanqiang Xiang is a transitional area in the center containing features of both languages. There are 354 villages in the Hengshan Mountain area.

Huayuan Xiang appears to be a separate language.

In the city of Yiyang, Henan Province, three Chinese varieties are spoken. One is a Yiyang Changyi Xiang variety, another is a Yiyang Luoshao Xiang variety, and a third is Luoyang Southwest Mandarin, a dialect of Henan Mandarin, described above. All appear to be separate languages.

We will call the two Xiang varieties Yiyang Changyi Xiang and Yiyang Luoshao Xiang.

Huangxu Xiang, a Xiang dialect island in the Southwestern Mandarin-speaking city of Deyang in Sichuan, is very different from the rest of Xiang and must surely be a separate language.

Quanzhou Xiang in Guangxi is another Xiang dialect island. It has extreme differences with Hunan dialects like Shuangfeng.

According to good sources, there is a tremendous amount of variety diversity in Western Hunan, most of it probably involves Xiang lects, while most or all of these varieties are not mutually intelligible. But until we get more data, we cannot carve any languages out of this mess yet.

Shuangfeng, Shuihui, Suantang and Lingshuijiang are members of the Luoshao Group of Xiang, which has 21 lects.

Changsha City A, Changsha City B, Changsha Rural, Hengyang, Shaodong, Xiangtan, Shaoshan, Baishi, Liling, Lianyuan, Qianshan, Houshan, Jiashanqiang, Ningxiang, Chengguan, Shuangjiangkou, Huaminglou, Liushahe, North Liuyang, South Liuyang, East Liuyang, West Liuyang, and Liuyang City are members of the Changyi Group of Xiang, which has 32 lects.

Jishou and Huayuan are members of the Jixu Group of Xiang, which has eight lects.

Xiang is composed of 74 lects. Many or possibly all of them are separate languages. The various languages of Xiang have 50 million speakers (Olson 1998).


Wu is a major group of diverse Chinese languages that is often divided into Northern Wu and Southern Wu. Southern Wu has 18 million speakers. My opinion is that in general, the Wu varieties are mostly separate languages; however, some are merely dialects of other Wu lects.

A good general rule for Zhejiang Wu varieties is that you can sort of understand the variety of next city over, but the language of two cities away is incomprehensible. For instance, in the Taizhou Prefecture region, there are between four and five mutually unintelligible Wu varieties across a 12 mile area. In Zhejiang, the mountains go all the way down to the sea, so there are few flat areas where language can spread out and become mutually comprehensible.

Huzhou Wu, Jiaxing Wu, and Kunshan Wu are separate languages.

Although the Suzhou City administrative area is large, Suzhou Wu language is spoken only in the city proper and its suburbs. Suzhou City dwellers say that people in the suburbs have a rural or “hard” accent, while the speech of Suzhou City is called “soft.” Suzhou is presently divided into two sets of speakers, one over 50 and another under 50. Differences between age groups in Suzhou were noted as early as the 1930’s. Suzhou Wu is still very widely spoken in the area.

Suzhou is 70% similar to Shanghaihua. That is not enough for full intelligibility. Shanghaiese find Suzhou to be incomprehensible. The differences between Suzhou and Shanghainese are much greater than between suburban Shanghai languages. A Shanghainese speaker would need a few months in Suzhou to learn Suzhou. This is about the same as the difference between Castilian-Catalan and Castilian-Asturian.

Suzhou is more complex phonologically and tone-wise than Shanghainese, so it is harder to learn. Even native Suzhou speakers have problems with the tones sometimes. Further, tone sandhi in Suzhou is quite complex.

Zhangjiagang Wu may be intelligible with Suzhou, but data is lacking. Suzhou is only 43% intelligible with Wenzhou (Cheng 1997). None of these varieties is intelligible with Shanghainese.

Wuxi Wu is spoken in the city of Wuxi. Wuxi is spoken in two areas, referred to as East and West Mountain. East Mountain refers to the city of Dongshan, and West Mountain refers to the city Wuxi. Wuxi is not intelligible with Changzhou or Suzhou. Wuxi is only 20% similar to Shanghainese. Wuxi can understand Shanghainese, but that is no doubt due to bilingual learning. Shanghainese do not understand Wuxi well.

Changzhou Wu is not intelligible with Shanghainese, Wuxi or Suzhou. Changzhou and Wuxi have high but not full intelligibility. Changzhou and Wuxi are part of a dialect chain in which eastern Changzhou speakers can communicate with eastern Wuxi speakers, but as one moves further west into Wuxi or east into Changzhou, intelligibility drops off. It is best then to split Wuxi and Changzhou into separate languages.

Changzhou itself has considerable dialectal divergence, though apparently all dialects are mutually intelligible.

Changzhou is the most orthodox Taihu language. It has eight tones and compared to Suzhou, it is many more sounds and a lot more traditional vocabulary.

Changzhou has 3 million speakers.

Ningbo Wu is close to Shanghainese, and Ningbo speakers can learn Shanghainese in ~two months. This is because many Ningbo speakers moved to Shanghai in the past 100 years and Ningbo became a prestige language in Shanghai in the first part of the 20th Century, so Shanghainese has a lot of Ningbo influence in it.

Many of the local Wu varieties around Shanghainese Wu say that they can understand Shanghaiese well but not the other way around.

The reason for this is complex. About 100 years ago, Suzhou became a very prestigious language in Shanghai and was widely spoken there. However, in the past century, many immigrants came to Shanghai from other parts of China. In particular, many speakers of Ningbo came to Shanghai. Ningbo is quite a bit different from either Shanghaiese or Suzhou.

With speakers of Ningbo, Suzhou and Shanghaiese all present in the city in large numbers, a koine needed to develop. Shanghainese was chosen as the koine and because speakers of three different languages were communicating, Shanghainese got dramatically simplified phonologically in order for it to be better understood by everyone.

Hence, Shanghainese has evolved in a highly simplified form of Taihu. This is why many speakers of nearby Wu languages say that they can understand Shanghainese but not the other way around.

Several varieties are spoken in the suburbs of Shanghai. Reports vary, but Shanghai residents generally report that these varieties are not mutually intelligible with Shanghainese (Gilliland 2006).

Some of these languages are Baoshan Wu, Fengxian Wu, Nanhui Wu, Jiading Wu, Jinshan Wu, Pudong or Chuanshan Wu, Songjiang Wu, and Qingpu Wu.

Pudong Wu, the older form of the Shanghai language, is still spoken in the Pudong District of the city, but it is dying out. There is a question of  whether or not it is mutually intelligible with Shanghainese, but Shanghainese speakers seem to feel it is not mutually intelligible (Gilliland 2006).

These Shanghai suburbs varieties above are probably not fully mutually intelligible. For instance, Fengxian is not fully intelligible with Jiading. Intelligibility between the two may be ~70%, but it only takes a few weeks’ exposure for a Fengxian speaker to learn Jiading Wu.

Qidong Wu, spoken in the city of Qidong, is a separate language. Qidong is said to be very close to Chongming Wu, so for the time being, we will list Chongming as a dialect of Qidong. Chongming, spoken on Chongming Island in suburbs of Shanghai, is not intelligible with Shanghainese.

These varieties spoken in the suburbs of Shanghai are closer to the Old Shanghainese, which is quite a bit different from the New Shanghainese spoken in the city center nowadays.

Changyinsha Wu is very similar to Chongming and Qidong, so it is probably a dialect of Qidong also. Another name for Qidong is Qihai, which refers to the speech of Qidong, Haimen and Tongzhou. For the time being, we will list Changyinsha and Chongming as dialects of Qidong. Chongming, and hence Qidong, are not intelligible with Shanghainese.

Nanjing Wu is a separate language. It is close to Shanghainese Wu but is not fully intelligible with it.

However, there are two varieties spoken in Haimen, and they are not mutually intelligible. Haimen Wu A and Haimen Wu B are then two separate languages.

Wuhu Wu is a separate language, unintelligible with Shanghaihua.

Hangzhou Wu is reportedly much different from the varieties of Shanghainese, Ningbo, etc. to the northeast and is not intelligible with Shanghainese, nor with Suzhou. Hangzhou has 1.2 million speakers. Nevertheless, Hangzhou appears to be dying out in Hangzhou City, as only older people seem to speak the language anymore. Hangzhou is 40% similar to Shanghainese.

Yixing Wu, near Changzhou, is not intelligible with Shanghainese.

Tongxiang Wu also appears to be a separate language, as does Yuyao Wu and Zhoushan Wu.

Lvsi, Qisi or Tongdong Wu, spoken in the nearby town of Qisi, is a separate language from Qidong.

Jiangyin Wu is spoken in Jiangyin city. It is related to Changzhou and has high intelligibility with Changzhou and Wuxi. It has some definite differences with Suzhou. Nevertheless it appears to be a separate language because it cannot be understood outside the city. Many older people still speak only Jiangyin.

Jinxiang Wu also has its own Wu variety with Mandarin influences. This is a Taihu (Northern Wu) outlier spoken far to the south of the Taihu region.

Wenzhou Wu or Oujiang Wu is a macrolanguage, as it is made up of at least 14 separate languages. It is not understood outside of Wenzhou and it is not even intelligible within itself.

The standard version is spoken in Lucheng District by 1 million people and can be referred to as Lucheng Wu. Ouhai Wu, Yongjia Wu and Ruian Wu are said to be to be dialects of Wenzhou Wu, but Ouhai, spoken in the Ouhai District, is not intelligible with Ruian. Ruian is spoken by 1 million people in the city of Ru’ian, and is related to Pingyang Wu spoken in Pingcheng County.

Yongjia, spoken in Yongjia County, is separate too, since if you go five miles in any direction in Wenzhou, there’s a new dialect, and it’s hard to understand people.

Northern Yueqing Wu is a separate language within Wenzhou. They are separated from the rest of the Yuequing city by Yangdang Mountain. Wenzhou is 43% intelligible with Suzhou. Indeed, Wenzhou, instead of being a single language, is instead of family of partially mutually unintelligible lects. See more evidence for that here.

Wujiang Wu is a separate language within Wenzhou that has come under serious influence of Luoyang Wu.

Wenxi Wu is a separate language within Wenzhou. It is spoken in one town in Qingtian County.

Wencheng Wu, spoken in Wengcheng County, is a separate language within Wenzhou.

Chu River Wu is a closely related separate language from Wencheng spoken in Luoyang County in Zhejiang.

Since there are 11 different cities and counties in Wenzhou, and the language changes every five miles or so, it would be logical to assume that there are 11 separate languages within Wenzhou. However, closer analysis reveals at least 14 languages within Wenzhou.

So we should then split off at least one Wenzhou language for each major division. This gives us Cangnan Wu spoken in that county and Longwan Wu and Dongtu Wu spoken in those two districts. Although aberrant Wu varieties probably not a part of Wenzhou are spoken in Taishun and Cangnan, varieties of Wenzhou are also spoken there, so it makes sense to split those two off.

In addition, in Taishun County, there is an aberrant Wu variety spoken in the town of Luoyang influenced by both Manjiang Eastern Min and Oujiang Wu. We can call this Luoyang Wu. This is best seen as the southern extension of Yesou Wu. Liqu Wu is another Luoyang variety spoken in the area.

There is another Wu variety similar to Manjiang Eastern Min spoken in the town of Hedi in Qingyuan County in Lishui. We will call this Hedi Wu. In all probability, it is a separate language.

Manhua Wu, a macrolanguage, is quite different. It is spoken around Cangnan and Wuzhou City in Northern Zhejiang on the southern coast of Wuzhou City in about five townships. The word man literally means “barbarians.”

There is a controversy over whether or not Manhua is Macro-Min or Macro-Wu. It is probably Macro-Wu based on phonology, and it also shares some similar Min-like traits with other Wu varieties such as those in the Chuqu group. Some think it originated in a Southern Min variety that came under the influence of a non-Sinitic language. Word order is completely different from Chinese word order. However, the word order is changing under the influence of Mandarin, and many younger people are using a more Mandarin word order.

Some theories think it has Proto-Vietnamese, Austronesian, and She influences. The major components seem to be Old Cantonese, Old Chinese, and Mandarin. Some also suggest Northern Min, Eastern Min, Southern Min and especially Wu influences. It has 200,000-400,000 speakers.

Within Manhua Wu, there is a northern group spoken in the town of Yishan and a southern group spoken in the towns of Qianku, Qianku Manhua Wu, and Jinxiang, Jinxiang Manhua Wu. Qianku Manhua Wu is the standard for Manhua Wu. Although the internal differences in Manhua Wu are not great, Jinxiang Manhua Wu and Qianku Manhua Wu are not mutually intelligible. It is also very heavily spoken in the city of Lengkang.

All of the above are in the Taihu Group of Wu.

Taizhou Wu is a major split in Wu. It is centered around the city of Taizhou in Eastern Zhejiang, is composed of many known separate lects, all of which are separate languages, including Huangyan Wu, Jiaojiang Wu, Linhai Wu, Sanmen Wu, Tiantai Wu, Wenling Wu, Xianju Wu, Luquiao Wu, Ninghai Wu, Xiaoshan Wu, and Yuhuan Wu.

All in all, there are said to be 4-5 mutually unintelligible Wu varieties spoken in Taizhou City’s metropolitan area alone. Therefore, we will list Taizhou Wu A, Taizhou Wu B, Taizhou Wu C, Taizhou Wu D, and Taizhou E. This is a region that is only 12 miles across.

Jiaojiang Wu and Huangyan Wu cannot understand Linhai Wu. The area has split into so many mutually unintelligible languages mostly due to terrain.

For instance, Taizhou and Huangyan are only a 10 minute bus ride away from each other, but the highway was only built recently, and there is a huge mountain in between both cities. Taizhou and Jiaojiang are only another 10 minute bus ride apart, but there is a huge river separating them and it could be crossed only by boat until a ferry was built in the 1990’s.

Linhai is only 20 minutes away from Taizhou now that a new expressway was recently built that involved blasting through a few mountains that previously had separated the cities.

There are two groups of Southern Wu which are both highly divergent and have very low mutual intelligibility internally. These groups are Wuzhou Wu and Chuqu Wu.

Wuzhou Wu is another major split in Wu.

Wuzhou Wu consists of at least 30 languages: Jinhua Wu, Jinhua Xiaohuang Wu, Tangxi Wu, Lanxi Wu, Pujiang Wu, Yiwus A-R, Dongyang Wu, Pan’an Wu, Yongkang Wu, Wuyi Wu, Quzhou Wu, Longyou Wu and Jinyun Wu.

It is also highly divergent, much more so than even Taihu Wu. A single subgroup of Wuzhou Wu, Yiwu Wu – contains 18 separate languages, all mutually unintelligible. We will call them Yiwu Wu A, Yiwu Wu B, Yiwu Wu C, Yiwu Wu D, Yiwu Wu E, Yiwu Wu F, Yiwu Wu G, Yiwu Wu H, Yiwu Wu I, Yiwu Wu J, Yiwu Wu K, Yiwu Wu L, Yiwu Wu M, Yiwu Wu N, Yiwu Wu O, Yiwu Wu P, Yiwu Wu Q and Yiwu Wu R for the time being.

Lanxi Wu has 660,000 speakers (Rickard 2006).

Chuqu Wu is split into two subgroups, Chuzhou Wu and Longqu Wu. It contains contains at least 22 languages. Some members of this group extend south beyond Zhejiang into Northeastern Jiangxi and Northern Fujian. We are going to cautiously classify almost of Chuqu Wu as separate languages, since it is much more divergent and much less mutually intelligible than Taihu Wu, and Taihu Wu itself has low internal intelligibility.

Chuzhou Wu consists of Qingyuan Wu, Jingning Wu, Jinyun Wu , Lishui Wu, and Taishun Wu, all separate languages.

Longqu Wu consists of Pucheng Wu, Shangrao City Wu, Shangrao County Wu, Guangfeng Wu, Yushan Wu, Kaihua Wu, Changshan Wu, Jiangshan Wu, Suichang Wu, Songyang Wu, Xuanping Wu, Qingtian Wu, Yunhe Wu, Longyou, Quzhou and Longquan Wu, all separate languages.

Pucheng Wu has two dialects, Nampo Wu and North Dabei Wu. Intelligibility data is not known. Pucheng Wu is so diverse that some say it is a language isolate and is not even a part of Wu (Norman 1988).

Taihu Wu contains seven subgroups.

Jiaxing, Shanghainese, Baoshan, Fengxian, Nanhui, Jiading, Jinsha, Qingpu, Pudong, Suzhou, Wuxi, Songjiang, Tongxiang, Qidong, Chongming, Changyinsha, Lvsi, Yunhe, Kunshan, and 11 others are all in the Hujia Group of Taihu Wu. Hujia Wu contains 32 lects, most of which are separate languages.

Changzhou, Yixing, Jiangyin, the Haimens, and seven others are in the Piling Group of Taihu Wu, which has 12 lects. Piling Wu has 8 million speakers.

Wenzhou, Ouhai, Yongjia, Ruian, Wencheng, and seven others are in the Oujiang Group of Taihu Wu, which contains 14 separate languages.

Hangzhou has its own group, the Hangzhou Group of Taihu Wu.

Shaoxing, Fuyang, Xiaoshan, Linan, Yuyao, Zhuji, and six others are in the Linshao Group of Taihu Wu, which contains 12 lects.

Fenghua, Zhoushan, and nine others are in the Yongjiang Group of Taihu Wu. Yongjiang Wu contains 11 lects and has 4 million speakers (Olson 1998).

Changxing and four others are in the Taioxi Group of Taihu Wu, which has five lects.

Taihu Wu is composed of 85 separate lects, most of which are separate languages. Taihu Wu has 47 million speakers.

The Taizhous, Huangyan, Jiaojiang, Sanmen, Tiantai, Wenling, Xianju, Leping, and Yuhuan are members of the Taizhou Group of Wu, which has 13 lects, all separate languages.

The Yiwus, Dongyang, Jinhua, Jinhua Xiaohuang, Lanxi, Tangxi, Wuyi, Pan’an, Pujiang, and Yongkang are all members of the Wuzhou Group of Wu, which contains 27 lects, almost all of which are separate languages. Wuzhou Wu has 4 million speakers (Olson 1998).

Chuqu Wu has two subgroups, Chuzhou Wu and Longqu Wu.

Lishui, Qingyuan, Jingning, Jinyun, and Taishun, and four others are in the Chuzhou group of Chuqu Wu, which contains nine languages. Chuzhou Wu has 1.5 million speakers.

Pucheng, Shangrao County, Shangrao City, Jiangshan, Songyang, Guangfeng, Longquan, Kaihua, Changshan, Suichang, Longyou, Yushan, and Quzhou and one other are members of the Longqu Group of Chuqu Wu, which has 14 languages and 5 million speakers (Olson 1998).

Chuqu Wu contains 24 separate lects, almost all separate languages.

Nanjing Wu is unclassified.

There are at least 216 varieties within Wu. Some say that there are hundreds of mutually unintelligible languages inside of Wu alone.

The various Wu varieties have 85 million speakers (Olson 1998).


Hui or Huizhou is a major group of many different languages with wide internal variation. There is a possibility that all Hui varieties are separate languages. Hui is spoken in the historical area of Huizhou, located mostly in Southern Anhui but also partly in Zhejiang and Jiangxi. The area is very mountainous, leading to strong differentiation among the lects. Every county in the area has its own Hui version unintelligible to outsiders.

Xidi Hui, spoken in a village at the foot of Huangshan Mountain in Anhui, is a separate language. Xidi is unintelligible even to villages a few miles away.

Tunxi Hui, Wuyuan Hui and Xiuning Hui are separate languages. The first is spoken in Anhui, but Wuyuan and Xiuning are spoken in Jiangxi Province.

Within the Jingzhan Group of Hui, Jingde Hui, Ningguo Hui, Chilingkou Hui, (spoken in Chiling, Qimen County), Meixi Xiang Hui, and Shitai Hui are separate languages.

Within Qimen County itself, there are six different Hui lects with low intelligibility between them. It is quite possible that we are talking about six different languages here. One of them appears to be Chilingkou above. The others we will just call: Qimen Hui A, Qimen Hui B, Qimen Hui C, Qimen Hui D and Qimen Hui F.

All except Meixi Xiang Hui are spoken in Anhui Province. Meixi Xiang Hui is spoken in Meixi, Jiangxi.

Jixi Hui and Hongmen Hui are separate languages.

Within the Shexian Group of Hui, there are two different languages that we will only call Shexian Hui A and Shexian Hui B for now. Jixi and the Shexian languages are spoken in Anhui.

Dexing Hui and Dongzhi Hui are separate languages, the first spoken in Jiangxi and the second in Anhui.

In the Yangzhou Group of Hui, Jiande Hui and Chunan Hui are separate languages. Chunan is spoken in Jiangxi. There are two other varieties in the group, Suian Hui and Shouchang Hui. Suian and Chunan are very diverse and are in all probability separate languages. Shouchang is also extremely diverse, and Jiande has some differences with Shouchang.

The Yangzhou languages are interesting because there is controversy whether they are Wu or Hui languages. Careful examination reveals that they cannot be subsumed under Southern Wu due to their great divergence from it, despite having some similarities with Wu. Some authors feel that they are Hui-Wu merged lects, and their similarity with both is given as a reason for merging Wu and Hui into a supergroup.

While it is best to classify them as Hui, they are much different from most Hui lects. All are spoken in western Zhejiang. Discussion here.

Jiande, Chuan, Suian and Shouchang are members of the Yangzhou Group of Hui. Yangzhou Hui has four lects, all separate languages.

Huangshan, Tunxi, Wuyuan, Xiuning, and two others are members of the Xiuyi Group of Hui, which has six lects.

Meixi Xiang, the Qimens, Chilingkou, Jingde, Ningguo, Shitai, and two others are members of the Jingzhan Group of Hui. Jingzhan Hui has 12 lects.

Jixi, Huizhou, Hongmen, the Shexians, and She are members of the Jishe Group of Hui. Jishe Hui has six lects, all separate languages.

Dexing, Dongzhi, Fuliang, and two others are members of the Qide Group of Hui. Qide Hui has five lects.

Xidi is unclassified.

There are 37 different Hui lects, at least 24 of which are separate languages. The various Hui languages have 3.2 million speakers.


Cantonese is a major language group spoken in the south of China. Cantonese speakers are said to be a mix between the Yue people and the Han. They have great pride in their speech which is closer to ancient Chinese than Mandarin.

Some Cantonese activists denounce Mandarin as a pidgin language spoken by Manchu and Mongol invaders glommed onto the Chinese of the people they conquered.

Various attempts are utilized to determine intelligibility between lects. They vary in efficacy, as the following shows.

Attempts to determine intelligibility through the use of complex lexical, tonal, grammatical and phonological formulae produce results that are excessively high in terms of percentage of intelligibility.

A better method is presented in Szeto 2000, in which sentences in other varieties, say Varieties B and C, are played to speakers of Variety A, and speakers of Variety A are asked to give the basic meaning of the Variety B and C sentences played to them. A sentence is recorded as correct if the basic meaning was ascertained.

By this better method, Standard Cantonese has only 31.3% intelligibility of Siyi, 7.2% of Hakka, 2.7% of Teochew and 2.5% of Xiamen (Szeto 2000). This paper also highlights the very important role morphological and syntactic differences play in intelligibility, even apart from phonology and other factors.

In contrast, the more complex method through the use of complex lexical, tonal, grammatical and phonological formulae not relying on actual informants gives false positives. By this method, Cantonese has 54.7% intelligibility of Hakka, 47.45% of Teochew, and 43.5% of Hokkien. This method falsely overestimates the intelligibility of Hakka by 7.6X, of Teochew by 16.1X and of Hokkien by 19X.

Standard Cantonese is traditionally said to have nine tones, but phonemically there are only six tones, since the last three are just three of the first six with a voiceless stop consonant on the end.

These are often called entering tones in traditional Chinese scholarship. Entering tones disappeared from most Mandarin varieties about 800 years ago due to the influence of invading Mongols speaking Turkic languages but are still present in Cantonese, Hakka and Min.

The original entering tones of Middle Chinese have merged into other tones or into Mandarin’s four tones. Traditional Chinese tones or contour tones end in a vowel or a nasal. However, in Standard Cantonese, the entering tone has retained its original short and sharp character from Middle Chinese, so in a sense, it has a different sound quality.

One of the most well-known divisions in Cantonese is Yuehai. Yuehai contains four divisions: Guangfu, Sanyi, Zhongshan, and Guangbao.

The other major divisions of Cantonese are Goulou and Yongshun, found in the watershed of the Pearl River, and Siyi, Gaoyang, Wuhua and Qinlian.

The Guangfu division of Yuehai consists of Guangzhou Cantonese, Xiguan Guangzhou Cantonese, Sabah, Hong Kong Cantonese, Macao Cantonese, Wenzhou Cantonese, Wuzhou Cantonese, Huizhou Cantonese, Nishimura Cantonese, Dongshan Cantonese and Xiguan Cantonese.

Standard or Guangzhou Cantonese is based on the Guangzhou dialect spoken in the city of that name.

A very pure form of Cantonese is spoken in Sabah in Malaysia as Sabah Cantonese. It resembles Standard Cantonese so much that the speaker community is called Little Hong Kong.

Hong Kong Cantonese is spoken in Hong Kong. There are a few differences with Guangzhou but not enough to impair communication.

Macao Cantonese is spoken in Macao.

Xiguan Cantonese is spoken in the suburban areas of Guangzhou. It has a few differences with Guangzhou but presumably not enough to impair communication. It spoken mostly by the older people now, as young people now speak Xiguan Guangzhou Cantonese, which is more properly part of Guangzhou. The dialect is dying out.

Dialects spoken in Guangzhou City include Nishimura Cantonese, Dongshan Cantonese, and some others. Dongshun is spoken in the downtown area. Nishimura is spoken by a few old people in the Nishimura zone, but it is going extinct.

Wenzhou Cantonese is very close to Guangzhou.

Huizhou Cantonese is a Cantonese variety spoken in Huizhou City to the east of Guangzhou to the northeast of Dongguan and to the west of Shanwei. This is part of the Pear River Delta. Huizhou has very heavy Hakka influence such that it is probably a separate language.

Vietnamese Cantonese is quite different from Standard Cantonese, but it is said to be nevertheless intelligible with it. However, other Standard Cantonese speakers say they cannot understand Vietnamese Cantonese very well.

Malayland Cantonese is also quite different from Standard Cantonese. Cantonese speakers who talk to Malayland speakers say that Malayland sounds like a foreign language. Therefore, Malayland appears to be a separate language. Malayland is mostly spoken in Kuala Lumpur and Ipoh, less so in Singapore. There are dialects inside of Malay such as Kuala Lumpur Cantonese and Ipoh Cantonese.

Cantonese is the most commonly spoken Chinese language around Kuala Lumpur. Although Singapore South Malayland Hokkien is the most widely popular non-Mandarin Chinese language in Singapore, Cantonese is the most commonly spoken language in Chinatown.

The Sanyi Group of Cantonese consists of Shunde Cantonese, Panyu Cantonese, Nanhai Cantonese, Xiquiao Cantonese, Foshan Cantonese, Shiwan Cantonese, Shatin Cantonese, and Jiujiang Cantonese.

Around Foshan, Xiquiao Cantonese, Jiujiyang Cantonese, Shiwan Cantonese, and Nanhai Cantonese are all spoken.

Foshan and Nanhai are close to Standard Cantonese and may be intelligible with it. Nanhai and Shunde Cantonese are mutually intelligible. Foshan, Xiquiao, and Jiujiyang are quite similar to Shunde.

Panyu Cantonese is definitely a separate language (Chan 1981). Panyu Cantonese is spoken in Xiaolan and Huangpu in the Zhongshan area.

Shunde Cantonese is almost the same language as Panyu, so if Panyu is a separate language, then Shunde is also. Shunde and Panyu may well be a single language, and if Nanhai is intelligible with Shunde, then Nanhai is also a part of this language. Shunde is spoken in Daliang, Longjiang, Ronggui and Beijiao.

There is at least one separate language inside of Sunde centered around Shunde, Panyu, and Nanhai, all of which are known as the Three Counties Area.

The Zhongshan Group of Cantonese spoken in Guangxi, composed of Shiqi Cantonese and Sanjiao Cantonese, is a separate language. Speakers of Standard Cantonese cannot necessarily understand Shiqi, but Shiqi people can understand Standard Cantonese. Shiqi is spoken in the urban part of Zhongshan City. Whether Shiqi and Sanjiao Cantonese are mutually intelligible is not known. It is best to call this language Shiqi Cantonese for now.

The Guangbao Group of Cantonese is spoken east of the Pearl River Delta in Shenzen, Dongguan and Hong Kong. Within Guangbao are three major divisions, Dongguan Cantonese, Bao’an Cantonese, and Dapeng Cantonese.

Dongguan Cantonese is not intelligible with Standard Cantonese. It is spoken in Dongguan City. A lot of young people are forgetting how to speak it under the influence of Standard Cantonese.

Dongguan is divided into Guangcheng Cantonese, Houjie Cantonese, and Humen Cantonese. Guangcheng is spoken in the Guangcheng subdistrict. Humen is spoken Humen Township on the east side of the Pearl River. Houjie is spoken in Houjie Township to the north of Humen.

Bao’an Cantonese is divided into Danija Cantonese, Weitou Cantonese, Gashiau Cantonese and Nantou Cantonese.

Danija Cantonese is the Cantonese variety spoken by the Tanka fisherpeople who live on boats off the coast of Guangdong, Guangxi, and Zhejiang. The Tanka People also live in Fujian and Hainan. In Fujian, they speak Fuzhou Northern Min. In Hainan, they speak some form of Hainanese Min.

Another group of Tankas in Hong Kong in Aberdeen and Taio to the north of the Hokkien-speaking area are former Hakka and Hokkien speakers who speak Weitou Cantonese, a Cantonese variety close to Standard and Dongguan but closer to Dongguan. It is not intelligible with Hong Kong Hakka.

Weitou is spoken mostly by older people in Hong Kong’s New Territories in walled villages in Yuen Long, Kam Tin, Songgang, Pinghu, Ping Shan, Shantin, Sheung Shui, Tai Tau Leng, Yan Gang, Fanling, Fanling Po Tsuen, Lam Tsuen, Taipo, and Tam Chung Tsuen, in the Bao’an District, in Shenzen in Shangsha, Xiasha, Huanggang, Xinzhou, Fukuda, Gangxia, and Akao, in the Longgang District, in parts of Nantou, and in the Nanshan District.

Nantou Cantonese is spoken in the Namtam area of Nantou by 5,000 people. Intelligibility with the rest of Bao’an is not known.

In Hong Kong, Gashiau Cantonese is spoken by a group of fisherpeople related to the Tanka. This language is related to Danija/Weitou but is not intelligible with it.

Dapeng Cantonese is spoken on the Dapeng Peninsula in the city of Dapeng, in Hong Kong, and Shenzen, in Tung Ping Chau on the Ping Islands in Hong Kong, and in Tai Kok. It has been very heavily influenced by Hakka. It is so different that it must be a separate language. It may be related to or the same thing as the Junhua or Military Language, a mixed language now classified as Mandarin. If so, it is not Cantonese at all, and instead it is a Mandarin lect. In Hong Kong, Tung Ping Chau Dapeng is highly endangered.

The Siyi or Sze Yup Group of Cantonese is a huge group of Cantonese lects spoken in the Pearl River Delta. Siyi Cantonese is the language of the Four Counties: Enping, Kaiping, Taishan and Xinhui. Enping, Xinhui, and Kaiping. Researchers have found 664 different Cantonese dialects in the Pearl River Delta area alone. 194 of them were quite similar, but another 442 of them were quite different. Since it is mostly Siyi varieties that are spoken in this area, this implies that there may be up 664 different lects in Siyi alone.

Siyi has very low intelligibility with Standard Cantonese, 10-20%.

150 years ago, there were fewer, but still significant differences between Siyi and Sanyi (Standard Cantonese), but Siyi was disparaged as a “hill dialect” of poor farmers, while Sanyi was elevated as the prestige variety of the cultured and cosmopolitan. This is why Sanyi became the Standard Cantonese variety. The Siyi incorporated this negative view into their self-image even to the point where they held overseas meetings meeting in Sanyi.

Taishanese, Hoisonese, Hoisan Cantonese, or Toison Cantonese is spoken north of Macao in Taishan County where there are 20 townships, and there is a different lect in every township. Taishanese is the Standard Siyi dialect. As late as the early 1990’s, children in this area were still being taught in the local Taishanese lect. Taishanese is still widely spoken in Chinatowns in the US such as in San Francisco (especially Stockton Street) and in New York.

The varieties in Taishan County can be quite different. For certain, there are at least three distinct languages within Taishanese besides the standard variety, Taishan Cantonese A, Taishan Cantonese B and Taishan Cantonese C, and these three have a hard time understanding each other.

There are clearly at least 17 dialects within Taishan Proper alone. Each town has its own dialect, and in fact, each village has its own dialect. The main town dialects are Taicheng Cantonese, Dajiang Cantonese, Shuibu Cantonese, Sijiu Cantonese, Baisha Cantonese, Sanhe Cantonese, Chonglou Cantonese, Doushan Cantonese, Duhu Cantonese, Chixi Cantonese, Duanfen Cantonese, Guanghai Cantonese, Haiyan Cantonese, Wencun Cantonese, Shenjing Cantonese, Beidou Cantonese, and Chuandao Cantonese.

Baisha is spoken in Bei Hou.

Speakers of Enping Cantonese, spoken in Enping County, cannot understand some other Siyi lects. Therefore, Enping is a separate language.

Kaiping or Chikan Cantonese, spoken in Kaishan County, is not fully intelligible with Enping until they get used to each others’ sounds. Kaiping is so different from Taishanese that it is hard to imagine how they can communicate well, though there is partial intelligibility. There are many different dialects inside of Kaiping alone, and pronunciation varies almost from neighborhood to neighborhood. One dialect is called Gee Cantonese. However, they seem to be mostly mutually intelligible.

In Xinhui, there is a dialect called Hetang Cantonese that is very divergent and has many strange features not found in other Siyi lects. Doubtless it is less than fully intelligible with other Siyi lects.

Xinhui Cantonese is somewhat different from Taishanese but appears to be intelligible with it.

Heshan Cantonese is intelligible with Xinhui and Taishanese.

Siqian Cantonese, Doumen Cantonese and Jiangmen Cantonese are three other Siyi varieties. Intelligibility data for these three lects is not known.

The Yongxun Group of Cantonese consists of Nanning Cantonese, Yongning Cantonese, Guiping Cantonese, Chongzuo Cantonese, Ningmin Cantonese, Hengxian Cantonese, and Baise Cantonese.

Baise Cantonese must be a separate language. It is spoken in the Yongjiang District in Baise City. It is very different, having been influenced heavily by Zhuang speakers.

Conghua or Congzhou Cantonese is spoken in three different dialects in Central Guangdong. Intelligibility data is lacking.

Curiously, Nanning Cantonese is said to be intelligible with Standard Cantonese.

The Goulou Group of Cantonese is a separate from all of the rest of Cantonese and is linked with Ping and Tuhua. It is made up of Yulin Cantonese, Baobai Cantonese, Lizhou Cantonese, Guangning Cantonese, Huaiji Cantonese, Fengkai Cantonese, Deqing Cantonese, Shanglin Cantonese, Binyang Cantonese, Yangshan Cantonese, Ertang Cantonese, Shuishan Cantonese, Yunan Cantonese, and Tengxian Cantonese.

Ertang Cantonese, Shuishan Cantonese and Yunan Cantonese are all spoken in Guilin City in Guangxi Province. They are under Ping influence. Ertang and Shuishan arrived in Guangxi 100 years ago from the Yangshan region of Guangdong.

Yulin Cantonese is a representative variety in Goulou Cantonese and is the existing form of Chinese that is closest to Old Chinese.

Baobai Cantonese is spoken in Baobai south of Yulin. Yulin and Baobai are mutually intelligible, but they are not intelligible with the rest of Goulou Cantonese.

Lizhou Cantonese has difficult intelligibility with Standard Cantonese. It is spoken apart from the main group, so it may be a separate language.

Wuzhou Cantonese is a very divergent Cantonese variety spoken in Wuzhou City in Eastern Guangxi that is very hard even for other Cantonese speakers to understand.

The Gaoyang Group of Cantonese is a division of Cantonese that is composed of Gaozhou Cantonese, Yangiang Cantonese, Liangiang Cantonese and Maoming Cantonese.

Maoming Cantonese is an extremely diverse Cantonese variety that must be a separate language. Intelligibility of Maoming Cantonese with Yangiang Cantonese, Liangiang Cantonese and Gaozhou Cantonese is not known.

The Wuhua Group of Cantonese consists of Huazhou Cantonese, Zhanjiang Cantonese, Maihua Cantonese and Wuchuan Cantonese.

Huazhou Cantonese, spoken next door to Maoming, also cannot be understood by Standard Cantonese speakers.

Zhanjiang Cantonese is utterly unintelligible with Standard Cantonese. They speak Zhanjiang Min in this area, and the Cantonese has heavy Min influence, hence it is probably a separate language.

Maihua Cantonese is a Cantonese variety spoken on Hainan. This is the only Cantonese variety spoken on Hainan, so for that reason alone, it may be a separate language.

The Quinlian Group of Cantonese is a division of Cantonese spoken in the Guangxi coastal areas around Qinzhou, Lianzhou, Lingshan, Beihai and Fangchenggang.

The group is divided into urban varieties which share a high degree of mutual intelligibility with each other and even with other urban varieties in the Yongxun and Gaoyang Groups but have poor intelligibility with the rural varieties.

The reasons for the higher mutual intelligibility with urban varieties even outside of the group may be due to the cities themselves, even outside of known groups, being closer to each other than rural varieties even within the same group. This may have to do with histories of intense trade between cities even outside of groups which made them closer together.

The urban varieties are Qinzhou Cantonese, Fangcheng Cantonese, Dongxing Cantonese, and Lingcheng Cantonese. They would seem to constitute a language called Urban Quinlian Cantonese.

The rural varieties are split into three major groups: Lianzhou Cantonese, Lingshan Cantonese, and Xiaojiang Cantonese.

Lianzhou Cantonese varieties have a Ping base with some Min and Hakka blended in. They are spoken in Hepu, the southern part of Pubei, and the coastal areas of Qinzhou. Lianzhou is so different from even the rest of the rural varieties that it is a separate language.

Hepu Cantonese is a Lianzhou Cantonese lect.

Lingshan Cantonese varieties are spoken in the countryside of Qinzhou, Lingshan and Pubei.

Xiaojiang Cantonese varieties are spoken in Pubei.

The rural varieties have poor intelligibility with the urban lects. A separate language called Rural Quinlian Cantonese seems reasonable.

Beihai Cantonese is very widely spoken in the area around Nanning as the major language. Beihai itself has five separate dialects within it, Beihai Cantonese A, Beihai Cantonese B, Beihai Cantonese C, Beihai Cantonese D and Beihai Cantonese E.

Jimmi Cantonese is an unclassified Cantonese language spoken in Jilong and Tiechong in Huidong and Erbu and Chishi in Haifeng. The popular notion is that this is a blend of Cantonese, Hakka and Min. Hailufeng Min is widely spoken in the area, and Haifeng Hakka is also spoken. Jimmi varieties appear to be mostly Cantonese with some Hakka and an even smaller trace of Min. Surely Jimmi must be a separate language.

Namlong Cantonese, is an unclassified Cantonese language from the Pearl River area. It is also a separate language or at least it was in 1949. Whether it still exists is not certain, but native speakers must still be alive.

Dongguan, Shunde, Foshan, Zhongshan, Nanhai, Panyu, Xiquiao, Foshan, Shiwan, Shatin, and Jiujiang, Guangzhou, Vietnamese, Malayland, Macao, Hong Kong, Nishimura, Dongshan, Xiguan, Dongguan, Bao’an, Tanka, Shiqi, and Sanjiao are members of the Yuehai Group of Cantonese, which has 727 lects.

Yuehai itself is split into Guangfu, Zhongshan, Guangbao and Sanyi subgroups.

Guangzhou, Vietnamese, Malayland, Macao, Hong Kong, Nishimura, Dongshan, Wuzhou, Xiguan, and Tanka are members of the Guangfu Group of Yuehai, which has 10 lects.

Guangfu has 13 million speakers (Olson 1998).

Shunde, Panyu, Nanhai, Xiquiao, Foshan, Shiwan, Shatin, Jiujiang and one other are members of the Sanyi Group of Yuehai, which has eight lects.

Dongguan, Bao’an, and Daping are members of the Guangbao Group of Yuehai, which has three lects.

Shiqi and Sanjiao are members of the Zhongshan Group of Yuehai, which contains two lects.

Taicheng, Dajiang, Shuibu, Sijiu, Baisha, Sanhe, Chonglou, Doushan, Duhu, Chixi, Duanfen, Guanghai, Haiyan, Wencun, Shenjing, Beidou, Chuandao, Heshan, Jiangmen, Siquian, Doumen, Guzhen, Xinhuui, Enping, Gee, and Kaiping are members of the Siyi Group of Cantonese, which has at least 693 lects. There are 3.6 million speakers of Siyi Cantonese.

Nanning, Yongning, Guiping, Chongzuo, Ningmin, Hengxian, Baise, and five others are members of the Yongxun Group of Cantonese, which has 12 lects.

Yongxun Cantonese has five million speakers (Olson 1998).

Zhanjiang, Gaozhou, Maoming and nine others are members of the Gaoyang Group of Cantonese, which has 12 lects.

Gaoyang Cantonese has 5.4 million speakers (Olson 1998).

Huazhou, Zhanjiang, Maihua, and Wuchuan are members of the Wuhua Group of Cantonese, which has four lects.

Yulin, Baobai, Guangning, Wuzhou, Huaiji, Fengkai, Deqing, Yunan, Shanglin, Binyang, Yangshan, Ertang, Shuishan, and Tengxian are members of the Goulou Group of Cantonese, which has at least 14 lects.

Qinzhou, Fangcheng, Dongxing, Lingcheng, Beihai, Lianzhou, Lingshan, Xiaojiang, Conghua, Nanning, and Hepu are members of the Quinlian Group of Cantonese, which has 11 lects.

Namlong is unclassified.

There are 780 lects of Cantonese, and Cantonese has 64 million speakers.


Ping, now recognized as a major split from Cantonese, is composed of Guinan Ping, Guibei Ping, and Benihua Ping. Guinan and Guibei are definitely separate languages, and Benihua appears to be one also. There is high but apparently not full intelligibility between Guinan and Guibei.

Ping has been heavily influenced by the language of the Dong people. Cantonese has almost no intelligibility of Ping.

Guinan Ping is spoken in Northern Guangxi around the city of Guilin near the Southern Mandarin-speaking area.

Guibei Ping is spoken in Southern Guangxi around the city of Nanning. It is close to Cantonese, especially Nanning Cantonese spoken in the same area. Guibei has some loans from Zhuang.

Benihua is a Ping language that has been heavily influenced by the Gong language, and as such, no doubt it is a separate language.

Guinan Ping has 22 lects.

Yongjiang Pinghua, Guandao Pinghua and Rongjiang Pinghua are members of Guibei Ping, which has 11 lects.

There is one Ping variety that is unclassified.

Ping has 34 lects. Ping has 2 million speakers.


Tuhua is a separate branch of Chinese spoken in Northern Guangdong, Western, Southeastern, and Northeastern Hunan Province and parts of Southern Guangxi. It has 132 separate lects. Tuhua is not really a language group but a wastebasket group for various varieties derisively referred to as tuhua – or “farmer’s language.”

Initial examination suggests that a number of things.

First of all, that the Tuhua lects, especially those of Southern Hunan, are very diverse, possibly as diverse as Wu, Xiang and Hui. Many or all of them may well be separate languages. If Tuhua is really as diverse as Wu, Xiang and Hui, then quite probably there is a different Tuhua language spoken in every county. Further, they are poorly studied and dialectally very diverse. There are many dialects inside the known Tuhua lects, and these dialects are often very different. So there appear to be languages inside even the known Tuhua lects.

Further, there appear to be links between the Tuhua varieties of Southeastern Hunan and northern Guangdong and the Ping language of Northern Guangxi, as they border each other. They all appear to be related and to have descended from a common ancestor.

Tuhua may have originally begun as a Sinicized form of the Yao language, and many of its speakers are still Yao people. One theory is that Tuhua is simply an extension of Ping. Another theory is that Tuhua started out as Middle Gan and then mixed with Cantonese, Hakka and Southwestern Mandarin.

Additionally, many Tuhua varieties are starting to splinter recently, as influences from Hakka, Cantonese and Southwest Mandarin begin to affect the younger speakers such that the language of the youngest speakers is quite a bit different from the language of the older speakers.

The best known of the Tuhua varieties is Shaozhou, referred to here as Shaozhou or Shaoguan Tuhua. Sometimes this name is used to describe all Tuhua varieties. It is spoken on the border of Hunan, Guangdong and Guangxi. Most of the speakers are in Northern Guangdong, but there are also some speakers in Southeastern Hunan.

Shaozhou is very different from other Chinese lects. Shaozhou consists of many different varieties which are often strikingly different from the others. Some say that Shaozhou is a branch of Min Nan, while others say it is related to Hakka.

Shaozhou is composed of eight lects, all of which appear to be separate languages. Of these, Shibei Shaozhou Tuhua and Xiangyan Shaozhou Tuhua, spoken in adjacent towns, are separate languages. Shibei has heavy Hakka influence, and Xiangyang is turning more Cantonese. Xiangyang has only been in contact with Cantonese for a few decades, while Shibei has been in contact with Hakka for centuries.

Guitou Shaozhou Tuhua and Dacun Shaozhou Tuhua are also separate languages.

Zhoutian Shaozhou Tuhua and Shitang Shaozhou Tuhua are spoken in Renhua County. These they may both by separate languages.

Really all of the Shaozhou varieties seem to be separate languages, so Nanxiong Shaozhou Tuhua is also. Nanxiong apparently shares a common ancestor with Hakka.

Longgui Shaozhou Tuhua, spoken in Qujiang County in Guangdong, is a separate language. Longgui has 2,000 speakers.

Besides Shaozhou, another major split in Tuhua is Lianzhou Tuhua. It is spoken in Lianzhou County and in Liannan Autonomous Yao County in Quingyuan City in Northern Guangdong Lianzhou is composed of Xi’an Lianzhou Tuhua, Fengyang Lianzhou Tuhua, Xingzi Lianzhou Tuhua, and Bao’an Lianzhou Tuhua. Each is spoken in a distinct township or townships, so no doubt each is a separate language.

In Lechang Prefecture in Northern Guangdong bordering Hunan, there are five separate languages, Lechang Tuhua 1, Lechang Tuhua 2, Lechang Tuhua 3, Lechang Tuhua 4 and Lechang Tuhua 5, which are not fully intelligible with each other.

Xianghua is a branch of Tuhua that contains six varieties of its own. Xianghua Tuhua is a completely separate and highly diverse language that is spoken in Western Hunan.

Also in Hunan, in northeastern Quiyang County, another Tuhua variety is spoken – Quiyang Tuhua. This must certainly be a separate language. There is a great deal of dialectal diversity within Quiyang Tuhua. Yantang Quiyang Tuhua and Yangshi Quiyang Tuhua are two of these dialects.

Xintian Tuhua, spoken in Linwu County in Southern Hunan, is a major split in Tuhua, so it is surely a separate language.

Linwu Dachong Xintian Tuhua is a form of Xintian.

Jiahe Tuhua is a completely separate language, unintelligible with other lects. Furthermore, there are huge dialectal differences within Jiahe Tuhua that may or may not constitute separate languages.

In Yongzhou County in Southeastern Hunan, Yongzhou or Xiangnan Tuhua is spoken.

It is clearly a separate language. It has at least 18 different dialects: Xintian Southern Rural Yongzhou Tuhua, Xintian Yongzhou Northern Rural Yongzhou Tuhua, Ningyuan Zhangjia Yongzhou Tuhua, Ningyuan Yongzhou Pinghua Tuhua, Lanshan Shangdong Yongzhou Tuhua, Lanshan Tushi Yongzhou Tuhua, Lanshang Taiping Yongzhou Tuhua, Shuangpai Lijiaping Yongzhou Tuhua, Gangyu Yongzhou Tuhua, Xiangyu Yongzhou Tuhua, Guiyang Liuhe Yongzhou Tuhua, Jianghua Sumitang Qidouhua Yongzhou Tuhua, Jianghua Baimangying Yongzhou Tuhua, Jiangyong Songbai Yongzhou Tuhua, Jiangyong Chengguan Yongzhou Tuhua, Jiangyong Taochuan Yongzhou Tuhua, Daoxian Xianglinpu Yongzhou Tuhua, Dong’an Gaofeng Yongzhou Tuhua, Dong’an Xuaqiao Yongzhou Tuhua, Dong’an Shiqishi Yongzhou Tuhua, Lengshuitan Xiaojiangqiao Yongzhou Tuhua, and Lengshuitan Lanjiaoshan Yongzhou Tuhua.

There are four main types represented here:

The first type is a Dong’an-Lengshuitan type comprising Dong’an Xuaqiao, Dong’an Gaofeng, Dong’an Shiqishi, Lengshuitan Xiaojiangqiao, Lengshuitan Lanjiaoshan, and Sumitang Qidouhua.

Of these, Dong’an Gaofeng Yongzhou and Dong’an Xuaqiao Yongzhou are spoken in separate districts, so they are in all probability separate languages. Dong’an Shiqishi Yongzhou Tuhua has Xiang and Wu influences.

The Lengshuitan varieties appear to represent at least one language. Lengshuitan Lanjiaoshan has at least one dialect, Lengshuitan Shamuqiao Lanjiaoshan Yongzhou Tuhua. It has a close relationship to Dong’an Xuaqiao Yongzhou Tuhua.

The second type is a Jiangyong-Daoxian type comprising nine lects. At least seven of them are clearly separate languages.

Daoxian Xianglinpu Yongzhou Tuhua must be a separate language, as it is named after a county.

Daoxian Xiaojia Yongzhou Tuhua must be separate language also, as it is a major split in this group.

There are many different Yongzhou Tuhua lects in Jiangyong County, many of which are separate languages. Jiangyong Yunshan Yongzhou Tuhua, Jiangyong Xiaopu Yongzhou Tuhua, Jiangyong Xiacengpu Yongzhou Tuhua and Jiangyong Huilongxu Yongzhou Tuhua, all of which must surely be separate languages.

There are many dialects even within the town of Yunshan where Jiangyong Yunshan is spoken. Jiangyong Yunshan is transitional between Jiangyong Chengguan and Jiangyong Xiacengpu.

Jiangyong Xiacengpu has 21 different dialects.

Jiangyong Huilongxu is the language was the basis for the famous nishu, “women’s script”, a secret language of women (Leming 2004), originating from the Shangjiangxu (Xiao River) region of Northeastern Jiangyong County in Hunan, of which much has been written lately.of the famous Jiangyong women’s script referenced above.

Jiangyong Chengguan Yongzhou Tuhua, Jiangyong Taochuan Yongzhou Tuhua, Jiangyong Cushjiang Yongzhou Tuhua, and Jiangyon Huilongxu Tuhua also appear to be a separate languages.

Jiangyong Cushjiang has nine dialects.

Jiangyong Taochuan has 34 dialects, but there is a lot of uniformity between them.

Jiangyong Huilongxu has two dialects.

Jianghua Sumitang Qidouhua Yongzhou Tuhua has a reasonably close relationship to Jiangyong Songbai Yongzhou Tuhua and Jiangyong Chengguan, and all three are thought to have derived from the same base. Although it is spoken in the same county as Jianghua Baimangying, it appears to be completely different, so it must be a separate language.

Jianghua Baimangying Yongzhou Tuhua also appears to be quite different, so it is probably a separate language also.

As the other eleven main lects in this group are separate languages,

Intelligibility between varieties is not known, but dialectal divergence within Tuhua varieties is typically great, and some or all of the above may be separate languages. There are clearly at least 18 different languages here, and there may be up to 31 different languages.

The third type is a Xintian Southern Rural Yongzhou Tuhua type.

The fourth type is a Ningyuan Yongzhou Pinghua type.

There is also a group of unclassified types comprising Xintian Northern Rural Yongzhou Tuhua, Ningyuan Zhangjia Yongzhou Tuhua, Lanshan Shangdong Yongzhou Tuhua, Lanshang Taiping Yongzhou Tuhua, Guiyang Liuhe Yongzhou Tuhua, Jianghua Baimangying Yongzhou Tuhua, and Shuangpai Lijiaping Yongzhou Tuhua.

Of these, Lanshang Tushi Yongzhou Tuhua may well be a separate language. Guiyang Yongzhou Liuhe Tuhua is probably part of a separate language also, as Guiyang is a county in Southeastern Hunan. Gangyu Yongzhou Tuhua, Xiangyu Yongzhou Tuhua, Lanshang Taiping Yongzhou Tuhua, and Shuangpai Lijiaping Yongzhou Tuhua appear to represent the names of separate counties, so no doubt each one is a separate language.

Xintian Northern Rural Yongzhou Tuhua is apparently completely different from Xintian Southern Rural Yongzhou Tuhua, so it is probably a separate language also.

Another Tuhua variety spoken in Yongzhou in the southern part of the region, Huasheng Southern Yongzhou Tuhua, may have as many as 75 different dialects inside of it. This is undoubtedly a separate language.

The Tuhuas of Southern Hunan appear to be Gan/Xiang mixed languages.

Luojin Chongshan Tuhua is spoken in Yongfu in Southern Guangxi. It has a close relationship to Guibei Pinghua. It is clearly a separate language.


Danzou is a separate group of unclassified Chinese languages. Danzou is spoken in the northwest of Hainan, and Hainanese speakers cannot understand it. It is either related to the language spoken by the Lingao people or is the same language.

Yet the Danzou people speak nine different lects, including varieties described as Hakka, others described as Cantonese, and others described as Mandarin, so obviously there are at least three separate languages inside Danzou. Let us call these Danzou Cantonese, Danzou Hakka and Danzou Mandarin.

Lingling or Linghua is an unclassified language spoken in Longsheng County, Guangxi. Linghua is a separate language. It is spoken by 20,000 ethnic Hmong in Taiping, Pingdeng Township in Longsheng. It is spoken only by residents inside the city as a sort of secret language. Southwestern Mandarin is used with outsiders. The language is a mixture of Hmong and Southwestern Mandarin.

Junhua or Military Language is spoken in Taoyuan County and Luidui in Pingtung County in Taiwan, Lufeng County and Huizhou City in Guangdong; Sanya, Changjiang, Danzhou, Zonghe, and Lingao in Hainan; Guangxi; around Hakka speakers in Wuping County in Zhongshan, Fujian, and other places.

On a Mandarin base, Junhua adds Hakka, Cantonese and Taiwanese. It is considered to be an Old Mandarin language and is normally placed in Southwest Mandarin in a group called the Junhua Group, which contains four lects. But others say that different Military Language varieties are either Hakka or Gan. Wherever these varieties are spoken, they are not understood by people nearby.

Junhua seems to derive from a lingua franca spoken by soldiers in the Ming Dynasty Army and was widely learned and understood by all soldiers at the time. It bears a strong resemblance to Ming Era Chinese.

Military Language is not the same language in the various areas where it is spoken.

Huping Junhua, spoken by 16,000 people in Zhongshan, is not understood by the surrounding peoples and is not considered part of Hakka. The language began in the area in the 1390’s when the Ming Dynasty sent its army to Zhongshan to put down a rebellion. Soldiers came from all over China and remained in the area after the fighting, creating a new languages out of all of their languages mixed together along with local lects. Actually this is thought to be more of a Gan language with Hakka influences.

Taiwanese Junhua in Taiwan is not the same language as the Military Language elsewhere. This language also has heavy Hakka influences, but it also has Min Nan, Mandarin and even Japanese influences. Some say this is a Hakka language.

Uncertain Affiliation/Possibly Not Sinitic

Maojiahua is a language spoken by 20,000 Hmong in southwest of Hunan, in the northeast of Guangxi and in some areas of Hubei. Ethnologue originally listed this language as a form of Chinese, but it now listed as a Eastern Xiangxi Hmong. Another argument is that this is a Chinese language with heavy Hmong influence. As the matter is not yet settled and Ethnologue lists it as Hmong, we will not list it as Chinese.

Waxiang is an unclassified Chinese variety spoken by the Waxiang ethnic group in Luxi, Guzhang and Yongshun counties in Xiangxi Tujia and Miao Autonomous Prefecture, Zhangjiajie prefecture-level city in Dayong and Chenxi, Xupu and Yuanling Counties in Huaihua prefecture-level city in Northwestern Hunan. It is nothing like the Southwestern Mandarin, Xiang, Tujia and Xo Miao Hmong languages that surround it, and none of them can understand it. There are 362,000 speakers of Waxiang.

It shares some lexical influences from the Bai language, suggesting a substratum from the Bai languages. This is either an unclassified Chinese language or a separate minority tongue, maybe related to Hmong. Others view it as a Xiang-Hmong mixed language.


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A Motto of the Alt Left, Via Liberation Theology

La gente, unida! Jamas sera vencido!

The people, united! Will never be defeated!

– An old Castroite Marxist revolutionary chant from Central America and South America, with roots back especially to the great Sandinistas in Nicaragua, the FMLN in El Salvador (who I used to buy guns for), the URNG in Guatemala, probably the ELN in Colombia, and probably the great FARC in Colombia.

All of these movements except the FARC were “Christian Communists” or “Catholic Communists.” Most of the rank and file guerrillas all the way up to the leadership were Catholics. In Nicaragua, leader Daniel Ortega was and still is a practicing Catholic and one of the top leaders of the Sandinistas was Tomas Borge, a Catholic priest. The ELN was led by a former Catholic priest named Camilo Torres, who traded his frock for an AK-47 and led a guerrilla group in the mountains of northwestern Colombia. He was killed soon after he started the ELN in 1964. The ELN has never renounced its Catholic roots and is a de facto “Catholic Marxist” organization.


The Eastern Catholic Church or Eastern Orthodox have been much more progressive than the  Catholic hierarchy, but that was not so at the  beginning of the century when the Cheka executed over 12,000 top ranking Orthodox officials in first several years of the Revolution. The Russian Orthodox Church or at least many believers are quite leftwing these days. They often hobnob with Communists, Leftists and even monarchists. Even the monarchists are pretty leftwing in Russia today.  Russia is a place where everyone is leftwing. There is no Right in Russia. Well actually there is,  but the Right has only 10-15% support. Putin’s party is defined as “Russian conservatism” but Putin says he still believes in the  ideals of Communism and socialism which he regards as very similar to the Biblical values of the Russian Orthodox Church. This marriage is not unusual and high ranking Church officials even today regularly make pro-socialist and pro-Communist remarks. Sort of ” Jesus as a Bolshevik” if you will. Stalin himself was studying to be a priest in a sen\minary of the Georgian Orthodox Church when he gave it up to be a full-time bank robber/revolutionary.  The thing is that you cannot understand Stalin at all until you understand his deep background in the Orthodox religion. Although Stalin called himself an atheist, he remained deeply Orthodox in  his mindset until he died. He ever revived the Church during and after the war for patriotic reasons. Stalin was very much a social conservative and his social conservatism was deeply inflected by his Georgian Orthodox seminarian roots, which he never renounced.

The Orthodox Christian churches of the Arab World have always been leftwing, along with the Church in Iran and Turkey. George Habash, founder of the Marxist PFLP in Palestine, was a Greek Orthodox. Many of the rank and file even of the PFLP armed guerrilla have always been Orthodox Christians. The Greek Orthodox SSNP in Lebanon and Syria are practically Communists. Interestingly, this was the first group to widely use suicide bombings early in 1982 and 1983 in the first years of the Lebanese Civil War. Most of the first suicide bombings, up to scores or hundreds in first few years, were by Communists, often Christian Orthodox Communists. Many of these suicide bombers were even women. It was only later that the Shia adopted the technique.

The man who created the Baath Party, the Iraqi Michel Aflaq, was an Orthodox Christian. The party had Leftist roots as an officially socialist party. Tariq Aziz, high-ranking member of Saddam’s Baath party, was an Orthodox Christian and a Leftist. Assad’s party in Syria is a Leftist party. Most Syrian Orthodox Christians are strong supporters of Assad, the Baath Party and Leftism. Recently the Syrian Defense Minister was a Christian.

The few Orthodox Christians left in Turkey are typically Leftists.

Many Greek Orthodox are Leftists. Serbian Orthodox laypeople and hierarchy long supported Milosevic, who was a Communist.

The Russians who violently split away from Ukraine in the Donbass were so Leftist that they called their new states “people’s republics.” Most of the leadership and the armed forces are Orthodox Christians. The armed groups had priests serving alongside in most cases. They often led battlefield burials for the troops.

There are deep roots of this sort of thing in Russia. Tolstoy is very Christian in an Orthodox sense, but he is also often seen as a socialist. Dostoevsky’s work is uber-Christian from an Orthodox point of view and he is not very friendly to radicals. However, before he started writing, he was arrested for Leftist revolutionary activities and sentenced to prison in Siberia. Most of his colleagues were hanged and Dostoevsky only barely escaped by the tip of his nose. Dostoevsky was not very nice to the rich either. No Russian writer of that time was, not even Turgenev. The rich destroyed 19th Century Russia. Anyone with eyes can see that. It would have been hard for any artistic heart above room temperature to not hate the Russian rich and feel sympathy for the peasantry. Turgenev’s first books were paeans to the Russian peasantry, and he was raised on an estate!








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Filed under Catholicism, Central America, Christianity, Colombia, Economics, El Salvador, Eurasia, Europe, Greece, Guatemala, Iran, Iraq, Latin America, Lebanon, Left, Literature, Marxism, Middle East, Nicaragua, Novel, Orthodox, Palestine, Politics, Regional, Religion, Revolution, Russia, Serbia, Socialism, South America, Syria, Turkey, USSR

Alt Left: Gay Men Like Em Young

Hood: Sir

Gays and Pedophilia

When a straight man looks at an unusually mature 12 year old girl he thinks…”I know she is only 12 and I won’t do it even though she looks older.”

Gay men like Kevin Spacey do not seem to have this moral sense or switch. They see a 12 year old boy and they think “his ass is firm and tight.”

I don’t know that gays have the same moral sense about sexual behavior that straight men do. It seems to be a part of their genetic makeup that is missing.

It may be wired in somehow.

  • Peak age preference for heterosexual men: 20-25 year old women.
  • Peak age preference for gay men: 18-20 year old men.

I am not sure how it ends up that way, but it does.

  • 25% of gay men over age 23 have had sex with a boy 13-15.
  • 6% of straight men over age 23 have had sex with a girl 13-15.

Gay men are much more into those teenage boys than they are into those little boys. That gay men like teenage boys has been known since Antiquity (Ancient Greece) and continues to this day in Afghanistan. If we move the age range of teenage boys up to 16-17, you will get an even higher figure. Or just read Death in Venice for that matter.

Older gay men who prefer teenage boys are called chicken hawks. They often use teenage boy prostitutes. Many of these boys are runaways. Gay districts of Los Angeles (West Hollywood), San Francisco (Polk Street is notorious for underage male prostitution), and New York (West Village) are full of teenage boy prostitutes working the streets, many of whom are runaways. I remember reading articles about this phenomenon all the way back in the 1970’s. People have known about this forever.

A gay man is 12X more likely to molest a child 12-under than a straight man is. There is a lot of overlap between homosexuality and pedophilia. That said, the vast majority of gay men are not pedophilic or child molesters.

Gay men like ’em young. Everyone knows that. Why they are like that, no one seems to know.

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Filed under Afghanistan, Ancient Greece, Antiquity, Culture, Ephebephilia, Gender Studies, Heterosexuality, History, Homosexuality, Man World, Pedophilia, Psychology, Regional, Romantic Relationships, Sex, South Asia

Yes, the Vietnam War Was Wrong, and Yet, Thank You for Your Service

I did not like this war one bit, but I think we should go easy on the guys who fought over there. Face it, they are just pawns. Their country called, they answered. If if their country called them for a dubious thing, the fact that they answered is still worth something. My main beef against the US military is that we hardly ever fight on the side of the good guys anymore. We are always for the bad guys or at least fighting for some dubious cause.

And we commit war crimes like crazy, though we seem to be getting a lot better about this. The Rules of Engagement in Iraq were much stricter than in Vietnam and certainly than in Korea, where I wonder if we were even following any rules at all. We need to knock it off with the White Phosphorus already though. We no longer use napalm (thank God!) and we have ended the use of cluster bombs (good show!). We really need to end the use of all depleted uranium ammunition though. The stuff is toxic as Hell and it’s got to go.

Almost no enemy POW’s were executed in Iraq or Afghanistan. I am afraid that we did this in Vietnam (CIA’s abominable Phoenix Plan), and in Korea, it looks like there were some terrible cases of this and even of US troops executing hundreds of South Korean civilians. My Lai was not the only massacre in Vietnam. There were many more smaller ones. It was fairly common for US soldiers to rape and murder young Vietnamese women villagers, especially in enemy territory. No, I do not approve of setting huts on fire in villages. Free-fire zones were a complete abomination. Carpet bombing with B-52’s is madness. The use of Agent Orange was an outrage.

US troops were not really monsters. After Tet, severe cynicism set in among US soldiers. Drug use skyrocketed, especially heroin, and I believe ceasefires were often negotiated with the local NVA or Viet Cong. Fragging or assassination of hated officers by those under the command rose to epidemic levels. Many to most of the men felt that the cause they were fighting for was complete bullshit, and they were probably right. We had a draft in the US, and those men were called up and ordered to serve. You can hardly fault a soldier for being drafted into war.

But I will say that the US military is damn good. And I can respect that. The 173rd Airborne was legendary in Vietnam. It has long been said to be one of the finest units in the US military, and I believe they may still exist.

Does it make sense to say that you thought the war was a great big mistake and still thank the men who served for their service? I don’t know, but I am going to do it anyway.


Filed under Asia, Iraq War, Military Doctrine, NE Asia, Regional, SE Asia, US War in Afghanistan, USA, Vietnam, Vietnam War, War

Just Got a Lifetime Ban from Daily Kos

Daily Kos is Ground Zero for the Base of the Democratic Party. The Democratic Party’s Base is more leftwing than the party itself in the same way that the Republican Base is more rightwing than the party itself. Party Bases tend to be like that. The Base of the Democratic Party would best be called the Left Wing of the Democratic Party. Now granted, there are some decent people on there. There are actually a fair number of Marxists and socialists hanging out in the Democratic Party Base.  After all, they have nowhere else to go. But this is a quite small percentage of the Base.

I have been banned for life from Daily Kos, and honestly it is a blessing because I absolutely despise most Democratic Party liberal types. The problem with them is that there’s nothing liberal about them. In any sane system, they would be something like what used to be called a Liberal Republican. They just flat out suck!

Their foreign policy is horrific. Almost all liberal Democrats are ((neocon)) fanatics. The whole left wing of the Democratic Party is completely overrun with a ((certain type of people)). As usual, they destroy that wing of the party as a result. They love Israel! The Democratic Party can’t get enough of wonderful Israel. Wonderful Israel is the greatest country on Earth.

Almost 100% of them support the war against the Syrian people we are waging with our Al Qaeda and ISIS allies. They hate Russia! They love the Ukrainian Nazis! Yeah, I know, makes no sense. They love Israel and they also love Al Qaeda, ISIS and real actual Nazis in the Ukraine. But that’s the exact geopolitics of (((certain people))) in the US, and as (((these people))) control this wing of the party, (((their))) values become everyone’s values. The love NATO! They hate North Korea, and some of them want to attack North Korea! They love US imperialism! They love the Pentagon! They love the CIA! They love the FBI!

Everyone on Kos loved this maniac named “Mad Dog” Maddis, the new general heading  up the Pentagon under Trump. Personally, I think he’s psycho, and he’s just another War Pig. Actually he’s worse than your ordinary War Pig. He’s a particularly belligerent type of militarist War Pig. A very frightening man.

And of course that whole wing of the party has been taken over by some time now by the most insane of the SJW’s.

They love free trade agreements! I would say 85% of Kossacks love the TPP, all because their hero Hitlery was pushing it. Kossacks suck! They love globalization!

They are all for Open Borders and Amnesty! As a matter of fact, I believe it has been a bannable offense on there for some time now to oppose illegal immigration.

I will say though that there are now some anti-Israel and anti-Zionist types on there. There are a few who support Syria and even some who support Russia. These might be 20% of Kossacks. However, Israel has become such a divisive hot button issue that I believe all discussion of the Israel-Palestinian Question has been banned. It’s nice to see that the Israel-Palestine Question has become incendiary at all in the Democratic Base though. Things are slowly changing.

There was actually a huge Bernie Sanders movement on Daily Kos, and there was a near civil war between Killary and Sanders supporters on there. Mods were continually having to wade in and sort out wild shouting matches and near virtual fistfights on the site. I did enjoy seeing the emergence of a Bernie wing. The one redeeming feature of the Base right now is this Bernie wing. Hope springs eternal!

On most economic type issues, Kossacks are generally very good. Of course they’re correct that this current crop of Republicans is worse than cancer. I agree. In fact, these Kossacks are the closest thing to “my people” anywhere on the Web. Which is partly why the ban was so painful.

OK, now for the ban story.

A Kossack wrote a typical article on there about one of the many false flags the (((US))) and Al Qaeda have been staging in Syria. This one was one of the many fake chemical weapons false flags. Unbelievably, there have been ~40-50 chemical weapons false flag attacks in Syria so far. The (((US government))) helped to propagandize every single one of them, and we were apparently directly involved in others.

I know that the DIA was directly involved in the famous Fake Sarin Gas Attack in Ghouta in the Damascus suburbs a few years ago. As has been the case in a number of these attacks, not only did Assad not shoot any Sarin or any other chemical weapons that day, even more bizarrely than that is the fact there was no Sarin of chemical weapons attack by anyone, Syria or the rebels, in Ghouta that day. The Fake Sarin Attack was like the Gulf of Tonkin Incident and all sorts of staged false flag bullshit the US engages in.

This was an attack that, incredibly, never even happened! We are talking about an event that never even occurred! Isn’t that incredible? The recent “Sarin” attack in Khan Sheikoun was similar. Once again, not only did Assad not shoot Sarin or any other chemical weapons (he has none to shoot), but the rebels didn’t either. Once again we are talking about an attack that never even happened. What happened instead, as in Ghouta, was a fake staged phony attack which was meant to portray the real one.

Anyway, this (((good goy))) on ((Kos)) was going on about the evil Assad, how he launches chemical weapons on his people and how we need to send our close allies ISIS and Al Qaeda in to finish him off. The usual Zionist jerkoff on (((Kos))). The place is swarming with Zionists. They are practically crawling all of the walls and even up on the ceiling of the place.

So I posted a comment where I said something like:

“What’s the name of your hometown? Tel Aviv?”

Basically questioning his loyalty to America and suggesting that he was guilty of dual loyalty.

Well, the other (((Kossacks))) absolutely flipped out and called in some (((moderators))). I was immediately labeled a Republican Trump-supporting troll. The (((commenters))) were beside themselves about my “outrageous, bizarre and appallingly anti-Semitic remark.” On the contrary, I was quite proud of that remark. Hey, if you are running interference for Israel, we have a right to check you out to make sure you do not have dual loyalty as so many of those types do.

So now I have a lifetime ban at ((Daily Kos)) for “anti-Semitism.”

Fuck ((Daily Kos)). Fuck the ((Democratic Party)). Fuck ((liberal Democrats)).


Filed under Anti-Zionism, Asia, Cultural Marxists, Democrats, Economics, Europe, Geopolitics, Government, Illegal, Immigration, Imperialism, Israel, Israel-Palestine Conflict, Left, Liberalism, Marxism, Middle East, NE Asia, Neoconservatism, North Korea, Open Borders, Political Science, Politics, Radical Islam, Regional, Republicans, Scum, Socialism, Syria, Traitors, Ukraine, US Politics, War, Zionism

Alt Left: If the Rate of Homosexuality in Populations Can Increase or Decrease, What’s to Stop It from Going Full-blown to 100% or Even 0? Do Humans Just Reap the Most Benefits by Having Homosexuals at 10%?

Answered on Quora.

The 10% figure is one of the biggest lies out there, but everyone believes it. It is repeated by gay activists and the Gay Lobby like a mantra, but it is almost certainly not true. It is based on the Kinsey Study, but even the Kinsey Study did not find that 10% of the population were truly gay in the way a gay person is now.

Like anyone else, gay people would like to increase their numbers. I don’t blame them.

If I were gay, I would want as many hot men available to date as possible. The fact that 97% of males are not gay must be very depressing to gay men. I think it would make me not only depressed but confused. How could I tell which men were gay and which were not?
Gaydar is another lie of the Gay Lobby. The truth is it doesn’t even work. Gay men hit on straight men all the time thinking that we straight men are gay. Obviously their Gaydar is broken. So if Gaydar doesn’t work and is just a conceit, and you really can’t figure out if a man is gay or not, what is a gay man to do? I am thinking it must be Hellish. What infernal confusion!

The truth is that many population studies in the US consistently find that at the most 3% of the US population identifies themselves as gay. There may be some closet cases lying in the surveys, but I doubt if there are many. In some studies, half of those 3% are married to women! How is that compatible with these studies being flawed by mass hidden closet cases? They keep doing the surveys, and they keep coming up with at the most 3% of men are gay. So we have to use the 3% figure in talking about the gay percentage of the population.

Gay activists and their Lobby hate these low figures because they think there is strength in numbers. They think that if people think there are only a tiny number of gay men, people will be freer to bully and persecute them. Whereas if they are a large figure like 10%, people will accept them more. I am not sure if it is true. Maybe it is. But they’re still lying, even if they are lying for a good reason. The road to Hell is paved with good intentions.

I would like to differentiate between gay men in general and gay activists and the Gay Lobby. Quite a few gay men dislike the Lobby and the activists. I have a gay friend who despises both of them. He says gay men just need to get married, move to the suburbs in a nice house and live quietly and unobtrusively like the rest of their neighbors. I concur!

So please do not think that by attacking the activists and the Lobby I am attacking all gay men. Certainly not. In fact, I encourage gay men to reject both activism and the Lobby. They’re counterproductive, and ~80% of the things they say are flat out lies. Gay activism, like all the other Identity Politics, is just propaganda. As feminism is nothing but propaganda for women, gay activism is nothing but propaganda for gays.

Nevertheless, I encourage all gay men to fight for their basic rights. I just don’t think lying is the right way to get what’s due to them. Not only will I support them, but I will help them, as I participate in some worthy gay political campaigns!

Surveys done with medical students found that ~3–4% of men identify as gay, gay being 0–100 to 20–80 on a scale orientation where 0–100 = completely gay. Another 2% identify as gay-leaning bisexuals, these being 30–70 to 40–60 on the same scale. Only 1% of men identify as fully bisexual, showing the stereotype about few people being purely bisexual is based on fact.

Adding up the numbers, 6% of men in these surveys identify as leaning gay, either bisexual or fully gay. Keep in mind that 2% of those men have a pretty strong lean towards women too, so they are not that gay. Another 1% are the “pure bis” who cannot logically be seen as gay either, neither can they be seen as straight. These are the people most perfectly identified as bisexual.

So population surveys get 3%, and medical student surveys get 6%. I don’t know what to do. Let’s go by majority rules and take the population surveys and say that 3% of men are gay.

This figure tends to be pretty steady for whatever reason. My research leads me to believe that true biological homosexuality (which surely exists and is the case with most gay men) is caused by hormonal aberrations and abnormalities in the womb. I doubt if it is genetic. There is some pretty good evidence leading to this conclusion. For whatever reason, these hormonal aberrations seem to occur in only ~3% of male births, and at least in the last few decades, nothing changes that.

Adding weight to my theory, there is research out there that shows that after 1990 in the Czech Republic, great efforts were put into monitoring pregnant women, adjusting their hormonal levels to the proper level, and keeping them from going off. Incredibly, research showed that this effort caused the rates of homosexuality and transsexualism to plummet. Not collapse but plummet.

Therefore, there may indeed by a “cure” for male homosexuality or at least a way to prevent it. I assure you that the Gay Lobby does wish to do anything to prevent homosexuality and transsexualism even if the mother desires this. But this shows how we might be able to artificially lower or even raise the rate of male homosexuality.
Now since the rate seems to be at a steady rate of 3%, and all evidence seems to be that the 3% rate (or lower) is the norm all over the world for biological male homosexuality, I would say we have nothing to worry about gay men taking over the world, though some of the real radicals would love to do that, trust me. Go read some of their documents. But the vast majority of gay men reject this gay chauvinism or gay imperialism.

The rate is 3% now, and it will be 3% in the future, unless we start lowering it as above.

This is why the question does not make sense. If biological male homosexuality occurs at a steady low rate everywhere on Earth without change, the rate of such cannot go much higher than 3%, certainly not to 100%, and it will not go down zero either, at least naturally on its own.

On the other hand, straight men have a tremendous potential for bisexuality. There are societies currently and in the past where very high percentages of men (up to 95%) engaged in regular sex with men (while also having lots of sex with women) throughout their lives. So you can definitely end up with societies like Afghanistan where many straight (by sexual orientation) men engage in homosexual behavior.
We must distinguish between orientation and behavior. They tend to follow each other pretty well but not always. Ancient Greece and Rome are good examples of where they can diverge a lot.

Now if you want to ask what would happen if 100% of men were behaviorally bisexual and were engaging in sex with men on a regular basis as in Ancient Greece and Rome, that’s another question, and I don’t think you questioner is asking that here. Personally I think it would be utterly catastrophic, although gay men would think they were in Paradise. Then again, the sky has not fallen in Afghanistan, where something like this is already going on.

Male homosexuality is bad for society. It brings along a whole host of problems and yes, diseases, along with it which impose considerable cost on society. I would like to add that these problems impose these costs on gay men themselves in terms of mental and physical illness, a whole lot of very sketchy behavior, and a culture that does not seem to be healthy at all in many ways. Despite the societal effects, the overwhelming costs of these problems are borne by gay men themselves.

Nevertheless, I feel that these are gay men’s problems. It is unspeakably rude and selfish to say that gay men’s problems which hurt them so much are terrible for the rest of us for whatever reason. It’s like someone walks into your house with a broken leg wanting help and you scream at him for ruining your day. How rude! How selfish!
Gay men’s problems are for them to solve. We need to stay out of it. If they want to deal with this stuff, let them go to it. We will help them, but the ball’s in their court.

I would like to point out that lots of things are not good for society, but we allow or tolerate them anyway, as it’s just not the place of society or the state to regulate people’s behavior, lifestyles, and choices.

In terms of the costs to society, yes there are some, especially in disease burden and medical expenses, but keep in mind that gay men are only 3% of the male population and a tiny 1.5% of the total population. Basically, whatever problems male homosexuality causes, we in the US can handle them very easily because gay men’s numbers are so small. If the percentages of gay men were to climb radically beyond 3%, the costs to society would be much more severe, and it would be something we could not deal with well. But that’s a whole other hypothetical problem.

As far as benefits go, I am going to be a radical here and say that society as a whole probably reaps exactly zero benefits from homosexuality either male or female. The effects on society are either negative or (mostly) neutral, but even when they are negative, their tiny numbers allow us to handle these effects well.

For the life of me, as a straight man, I cannot fathom any benefits from having gay men in my society. Somebody needs to clue me here. What’s in it for me, or for straight society as a whole? Color me confused!

Most straight men would probably be perfectly happy to never deal with another gay man for the rest of our lives. It’s not that they are horrible for us, but there’s no benefit at all, and there is a certain downside (they constantly try to seduce us). Most of us don’t really hate them at all (we are more indifferent towards them than anything else) but we don’t feel any special love for them, and I wager they would not be missed.

Nevertheless, despite this fact of there being no benefit to us, we straight men need to support full rights for biologically gay men. We need to wish for them the same happy and healthy lives as we do for ourselves, not even 1% less.

Please realize that these men did not choose to be this way. We straight men are straight only due to sheer luck and a roll of the genetic dice. Any of us could have ended up gay too. If you are straight, try to imagine if you had been wired up gay instead. Imagine yourself just as you are, except you are a gay man instead of a straight man. That’s called empathy. What would you like to the world to be like? This is the world that straight men need to create for gay men, not for any particular reason, but only because it’s simply the right thing to do.

No matter what we straight men think about male homosexuality (and a lot of us are profoundly repulsed by it), nevertheless at the end of the day, we have to be kind.


Filed under Afghanistan, Asia, Biology, Gender Studies, Health, Heterosexuality, Homosexuality, Illness, Man World, Politics, Regional, Science, Sex, Social Problems, Sociology, South Asia, US Politics, USA

Suicide: The Ultimate Enigma

Becoming suicidal is often but not always indicative of mental illness. Philosophically, it simply means that you do not want to live anymore, and you don’t have to be nuts to feel way. Life’s hard for everyone, and at some point, a lot of people just can’t take it anymore and want to bail out or end the pain. Indeed, a person certainly feels no more pain after suicide.

People kill themselves for all sorts of reasons. Only 70% of suicides are clinically depressed. A lot of people commit suicide simply out of boredom, believe it or not. Some people seem to do it for absolutely no reason at all. It’s as if they did it for shits and giggles or as a way of trolling the human race. I suppose in a way, suicide is the ultimate troll. Suicides are trolling the whole damn world, every one of us.

Suicide is a mystery.

We have been studying it forever, and we still hardly know a thing about it. A man wrote a big book on suicide a while back, and at the end of the book he said he didn’t understand suicide any better at the end than when he had started.

Some countries have high suicide rates, and no one seems to know why. Other countries have low suicide rates, and no one knows why.

Hungary had high suicide rates under feudalism, monarchy, fascism, communism and now democracy. People killed themselves at the same rate in all systems.

The Japanese have always had a high suicide rate, and no one knows why. Impoverished North Korea has an extremely low suicide rate while next door ultra-wealthy Japan has a very high rate. There is no good explanation for the difference.


It may be cultural. Some societies may be more pro-suicide than others.

Anti-socialists like to say that Swedes have a high suicide rate. They claim that Swedish socialism gives people everything they need and maybe want, but it leaves them bored and unmotivated and hopeless to improve their lot, so they end it all. But all places on Earth at that latitude have a high suicide rate. It is so dark half the year that the sun only comes out for a few hours a day, and it is cold all the time. There are high suicide rates in Norway, Iceland, Finland, Estonia, Russia (especially Siberia), Alaska, Northern Canada, and Greenland. Anyway, the Swedes had a high suicide rate even before socialism. Other countries have an identical system to Swedish socialism, and they have low suicide rates.

Actually, the suicide rate was comparatively low in the USSR and Eastern Europe under communism. However, with the transition to capitalism in 1990, suicide rates skyrocketed over the next 10-15 years as did forms of slow suicide such as drinking oneself to death. So the Communism/socialism causes suicide theory seems to be washed up. If anything, suicide seems to be linked to capitalism a lot more than it is linked to socialism or Communism.

Nigeria is one of the most hellish and nightmarish places on Earth at least from my perspective, and from any point of view, it’s basically a shithole. In fact, it is probably one of the foulest shitholes on Earth. Yet Nigerians typically among the happiest people on Earth. They’re smiling amid the stinking, crime-infested, ultraviolent ruins, while the Swedes and Japs are blowing their brains out in lavish apartments drowning in luxury.

Go figure.

Bottom line is that a lot of human behavior is either not easily explained or simply doesn’t seem to make much sense at all. People feel however they do for whatever reasons they do, and it’s often hard to figure out why.

At the end of the day, human behavior is largely a mystery.


Filed under Africa, Asia, Canada, Capitalism, Culture, Economics, Eurasia, Europe, Finland, Hungary, Japan, Left, Marxism, NE Asia, Nigeria, North America, North Korea, Norway, Psychology, Regional, Russia, Siberia, Social Problems, Socialism, Sociology, Sweden, USA, USSR, West Africa

How Al Qaeda Was Born

Although the Muslim Brotherhood is officially opposed to Al Qaeda and tends to take a legalist and democratic approach to obtaining power, the organization is nevertheless very radical and many radical Muslims gravitate to the MB as the only game in town. In turn, as they radicalize in the MB, the more radicalized people spin off  to Al Qaeda, ISIS and other radical jihadi groups.  Then some of the Al Qaeda people spin back into the Brotherhood, this time hiding their radical views.

It is not well known, but Hamas is nothing less than the Palestinian Muslim Brotherhood. The MB is illegal in Saudi Arabia, Syria and Qatar. They led an uprising in 1982 in Syria where 30,000 people were killed. The survivors went to Europe and also to Saudi Arabia where they met up with Egyptian MB members who were working and teaching in the Kingdom. These MB religious folk were then in turn influenced by the allegedly quietist Wahhabism, the official doctrine of Saudi Arabia. The MB religious teachers then supercharged Wahhabism while Wahhabism itself radicalized the MB teachers in terms of Islamic doctrine. It was this mixture of the Ikhwan and Wahhabism that eventually morphed into bin Laden’s Al Qaeda. From and around Al Qaeda all sorts of other radical jihadi groups emerged, especially in Iraq and Syria. Most of the groups in Syria are either Al Qaeda linked or inspired or if not, are not a great deal different from Syrian Al Qaeda, now called Al Nusra.

Another origin of Al Qaeda was in Egypt where as above, the MB served as a nursery of sorts for Islamic radicals. Radicals kept spinning off the MB and forming more radicalized splits. Sayed Qutb was one of the first, and Al Qaeda is simply Qutbism writ large. He was executed by Nasser in the 1950’s.

Another split occurred in the late 1970’s, when another radical group spun off of the MB and evolved into various factions. One of these factions developed the Qutbist notion that the entire Muslim world was now living in a state of jahaliyya or pre-Islamic ignorance. The entire society of Muslim Egypt was tainted by infidel and anti-Islamic influences. Some of these people dropped out of society and went to live like hermits in caves in the desert. They saw the entire society as corrupt and evil, so they had no alternative but to completely drop out of it and live in isolated hermitage like early Christians.

It was here that Zayman al-Zawahiri, the Egyptian eye surgeon and bin Laden’s 2nd in command, got his start. He developed some followers in the city he lived in and he eventually dropped out of society and went to live in caves with the rest of the radicals.

Around this time, a lot of these radicals got wrapped up in plot to assassinate Anwar Sadat, mostly for the crime of making peace with Israel. The assassins, of which there were several, were ex-MB members who had spun off from the group. About 1,000 radicals were rounded up after the assassination. Al-Zawahiri was one of them. There is footage of a wild-eyed Zawahiri in a crowded jail cell with ~40 other men. He is gripping the cell bars and shouting along with many others.

After his release, Zawahiri went on to form the Egyptian Islamic Jihad. This and several other very radical jihadi groups waged war on the Egyptian state in the early 80’s. Zawahiri’s movement, which had ~1,500 members, was crushed by the state. Jihadis were taken out into the Egyptian desert, tied to a pole and left there. It didn’t take long for them to perish from lack of food or water. In this way, the movement was crushed. Zawahiri fled Egypt and may have taken up with bin Laden in Sudan for a while.

The remains of Islamic Jihad combined with the nascent Al Qaeda forming in the Kingdom via the mixture of Egyptian and Syrian MB and Saudi Wahhabis to form the nucleus of the early Al Qaeda.

Al Qaeda got increasingly radicalized during bin Laden’s stay there. Finally both men went to Afghanistan for the Afghan jihad which radicalized huge numbers of Muslims all over the world, mostly in the Arab World. As they fought in Afghanistan, they become increasingly radicalized. Zawahiri had always argued for fighting the “near enemy” first – the secular Arab regimes, but bin Laden’s radical theory was to switch from a war only against the near enemy to a war against the “far enemy,” which bin Laden called the US for its support for Israel and the secular Arab dictatorships.

The MB is hated and outlawed in Qatar and Saudi Arabia more on the grounds of rivalry than anything else. Qatar and the Saudis see the Ikhwan as a threat to royal power. After a military coup overthrew the elected MB government in Egypt, the new leader Sisi has formed a major alliance with the Saudis and the Qataris. The Saudis have responded by flooding Sisi’s government with oil money.

In Jordan, most of the Parliament is made of the MB members, which is one reason why the powers of the Parliament have been severely limited by the King.

The MB is quite active in north Lebanon near Tripoli where Lebanon’s 20% Sunnis live. These people have become increasingly radicalized and are now engaged in open warfare with Alawis living in some of these cities. Some of these Sunnis also seem to have gone to Syria to join up with the jihadi groups. The MB in this part of Lebanon is known for its dislike of Lebanon’s Shia and Hezbollah.

The MB was formed by Hassan Al-Banna, an Egyptian schoolteacher, in 1922. It is one of the oldest radical Muslim groups in the world.

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Filed under Afghanistan, Africa, Alawi, Asia, Egypt, Geopolitics, History, Iraq, Islam, Islamic, Israel, Jordan, Lebanon, Middle East, Middle Eastern, Modern, North Africa, Palestine, Politics, Radical Islam, Regional, Religion, Saudi Arabia, Shiism, South Asia, Sunnism, Syria, Terrorism, USA

Indian Hindus – Portrait of a Parasitical People

Excellent post from the comments from Angie Cohen, a physician in New York City.

Angie Cohen: Bhabiji: This is going to be a lengthy post.

I have noticed that you have conveniently ignored a lot of Robert’s points in his post. Allow me to address them with facts and evidence. I will mention some of Mr. Lindsay’s points and address them vis-a-vis your convoluted rants defending Hinduism:

#1: Robert’s point on the sheer hypocrisy and hideousness of upper caste Hindus, especially the Brahmins.

He clearly mentioned their disdain for people whom they consider lower castes or “dalits,” while both defending the caste system, and when cornered with logic and facts, even denying the existence of Casteist- based discrimination and atrocities against lower castes by Brahmin & other upper caste thugs in India.

You seem to have ignored that and instead deviated to defending the evils of Puranic Hinduism and the idiotic mythical Ramayana rubbish.

#2: Robert’s point on the Brahmins’ hatred for Western culture and Christianity while glorifying a mythical idealistic ancient Hindu Vedic civilization extolling the superiority of Hindus vs the others (Christians, Muslims etc).

The Brahman-dominated Hindutvadi losers do all these while ironically doing everything they can to dump their failed Hindurashtra and then leave for Judeo-Christian-based secular nations such as the United States, Australia, UK, Canada and even some EU nations. That is a strange dichotomy. Almost a walking contradiction!

#3: Robert’s point on Hindu savagery and backwardness.

Despite what Brahmin supremacists love to claim online under anonymity or in some pathetic RSS/BJP/ Ultra rightwing Hindu club eulogizing the greatness of Vedic civilization and the genius of the upper caste Hindu mind, all evidence points to quite the opposite.

Show me ONE place, just one place on Earth where Hindus (upper castes or otherwise), despite being easily able to congregate together (Heck they have a whole freaking nation for themselves, i.e. Modi’s Brahman-dominated upper caste-run India – a failed shithole!) have been able to build a decent or successful society which is both fully functional and advanced. Pretty sure there is NOT one.

The Evidence:

What do White Christians create in terms of advancement & beauty?

The holiest sites for Hindu Brahmans – Varanasi & River Ganges created, maintained, and run by Hindu Brahmins, is the utopia we create and then delude ourselves of our supposed superiority.

Brahman-supported Hindu Supremacist leader Modi’s beloved Gujarat – we do believe in Rupee for Poopee!

Hindu dominated India’s staggeringly low IQ:

Hindu-dominated India has a very low IQ of just 82, far lower than ANY Western nation (North & South Americas, Europe, Russia, Australia & New Zealand). This point explains Indian incompetence in the medical and technical fields, which is why we the western world have to pretty much share all our science, technology & civilization with these arrogant ingrates.

Hindu incompetence in the engineering and tech fields:

Hindu incompetence in the medical field:

From Great Britain – incompetent Hindu doctors wrecking havoc there:

Not only are they highly incompetent in their technical work, they have this brash, arrogant attitude mixed with a rude demeanor which makes them very unwelcome here. Not just the IT sector filled with unintelligent Hindu zombies, but even the medical industry has suffered the plague of Hindu incompetence. A few years back the Australian government suffered the outcome of inviting one such upper caste Hindu, Dr. Jayant Patel, who would turn out to break the world record for the highest number of cases of death and medical negligence owing to his sheer medical incompetence. He was labelled “Dr. Death” by the media which made his horrible work into international headlines.

Even in India, take a cursory look at the number of so called medical doctors who have been banned or jailed for medical incompetence and negligence by the Medical Council of India – all happen to be upper caste Hindu doctors. Just look at the list below – excepting one random Muslim name, it pretty much reads from a telephone directory of some Hindu Brahmin or Baniya matrimonial column from New Delhi. It is interesting to note that NOT one Indian-Christian doctor made it in that shitlist of shame.

Now ask yourselves this question: Why does America, UK or Australia need more incompetent upper caste Hindu doctors or technocrats when it is plainly evident that these losers can’t hack it in terms of quality?

Just so that you know, the minority of Indian Christians still stuck in India are easy targets for persecution by the upper caste-dominated Hindu fascists of the ruling BJP government. The Indian Christian community is a highly intelligent, educated and industrious lot who have actually helped advance India into the 21st century. The Hindu fascists are the same folks who burnt alive and killed an Australian Christian man and his two young sons for helping poor & maligned leprosy patients in Orissa, India.

The Indian Christian community is actually a breath of fresh air here in the West. They are nothing like their Hindu countrymen. Generally highly competent, intelligent and very well-assimilated into Western culture, they are welcome here anytime. Can’t say the same for the Hindus, Sikhs, and especially the savage Muslims though.

Studies and statistics like those listed above should be shared and shown to official authorities and friends, colleagues, and families – just so we can all be secure in the knowledge of making an astute decision as to the current immigration trends.


Indians, especially the Hindus, are highly parasitical. If and when some among them thrive or are successful, at best they migrate to somebody else’s land, neighborhood or club built, designed and created by someone else. Thus for all the spikes and bile they upper caste Hindu losers spew against Christendom, they are the first bunch of parasitical hypocrites who crawl on their rancid bellies and beg, borrow, or steal to dump Hindu India (Bharatvarsh) & instead migrate to Christian lands in the West.

And once there, these ingrates will do everything they can to undermine the host culture and people vis-a-vis their concomitant attacks against Christianity, our institutions, our jobs and especially against our women and culture. Unlike the Muslims, the Hindus are a lot more sly and do these acts in a covert manner. Except that people are waking up to their BS.

These Brahman hypocrites will steadily vote for the Left in Western countries while steadfastly supporting ultra rightwing policies and governments back in their homeland of India. Another walking contradiction.

So, if Hinduism is so great, “Bhabiji”, tell me when you book the next one-way ticket to “the enlightened land of Bharatvarsha” (India) and live, thrive and work in Hindustan without returning back to us inferior Jews & Christians of the West?


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