Category Archives: Melanesians

Race in Vietnamese Antiquity

Vietnam writes:

That’s wrong. Viets already looked very mongoloid (flat-faced) before the Chinese invaded their country ~ 2200 years ago. Anthropologists Mongoloid-looking people already appeared in Vietnam ~3800 years ago. After Viets broke free from China, they took Champa and Cambodia and absorded those peoples (less mongoloid-looking peoples).

Viets became much more diverse that you can see today. If you keep tracing back then every country in Asia was not mongoloid looking. Japan only started to looked mongoloid ~2500 whereas. Ainu people were roaming in northern Asia very early…Oldest mongoloid skull found in Asia is only about 7000 years old.

I do not agree with this in whole, but I do agree with it in part.

The Dabut Culture began ca. 8,000 YBP but developed from 5,000-6,500 YBP. This culture was found in the northern part of Middle Vietnam (provinces Nghe An and Ha Tinh). Radiocarbon dating for this culture gives dates from ~3,500-5,000 YBP.
Anthropological studies show that Australoid elements dominate in the skulls of Da But, Con Co Ngua, Quynh Van and Bau Du. They belong to Mongoloid-Australoid or Melanesian race.

Skulls of the Peinan culture on the southeast coast of Taiwan look very much like this and may be related. The Man Bac people were Austronesians. Man Bac skulls are classed as the Ancient SE Asians – the Indonesian race. Recently, a very important burial field of those people was excavated at the Ninh Binh (Northern Vietnam) site of Man Bac. A 14C-dating for this site is 3,530 YBP.

But the first human occupation here could have been as early as 4,000 YBP. It was the age of many late Neolithic, early metal age cultures such as Phung Nguyen, Hoa Loc, Ha Long and Go Ma Vuong. These people were living in real villages. Some of them had already developed an agricultural society as in the case of Phung Nguyen culture. A great deal of rice and rice artifacts were found in the late phase of this culture. They cultivated Oriza Sativa, a large developed type of this grain.

Growing rice established new cultural developments with lots of settlements with rich potsherd layers, many domestic animal bones and rice remains. The non-food productions of pottery, stone tools, and especially jade ornament artifacts showed that a surplus economy in food production had developed. For the Pre-Ðôngsonian culture (2,800-3,500 YBP), many big burial fields in the Delta of Ma River have been excavated.

Pre-Ðôngsonian skulls have strong elements of Australoid, but elements of Mongoloid are clearly increasing – Austronesians. The Quy Chu and Nui Nap people are identified with the Southeast Asian or Indonesian race. Ðôngsonian – or Ðông Son – Culture in Vietnam was regarded as the most developed culture in late prehistory of Vietnam. It began 2,700-2,800 YBP, and ended with the complete occupation by the Han Dynasty in 2,200 YBP.

The Ðông Son culture belonged to the Iron Age and is found mainly in North Vietnam, southward only to Da Nang (18N latitude) and northward to southern Kwangzi and Kwangtung of China. The Ðông Son are Tai. Anthropological research confirms increasing Mongoloid elements in the Ðông Son skulls. However, the Ðông Son peoples belonged to the Indonesian or Ancient Southeast Asian group – a Southern Mongoloid with strong Australoid elements (Cuong, 1996).

In summary, in response to the poster’s comment, I do not agree with him that Vietnamese were full Neomongoloids 3,800 YBP. This is just not correct.

3,800 YBP Vietnamese were part of the Dabut Culture. Dabut people were Mongoloid-Australoid transitionals or Paleomongoloids. Skulls from Man Bac 3,500 YBP show that the Man Bac people were ancient Austronesians possibly from the Peinan Culture in Southeastern Taiwan. These people are classed as the Ancient Southeast Asian Race which is today the Indonesian Race. So 3,500 YBP, Vietnamese looked like Indonesians. This race is a Southeast Mongoloid Race with strong Australoid elements.

From 2,800-3,500 YBP, the Pre-Ðôngsonian Culture existed in Vietnam. These would also be classified as the Indonesian Race, but Mongoloid elements are now increasing over the Australoid. These people were also classed as Austronesians, possibly once again from Taiwan. These would be Taiwanese aborigines.

By 2,200 YBP, there was a huge invasion of Vietnam by the Southern Chinese Han who conquered the entire nation. At this point the transition to modern Vietnamese began. Modern Vietnamese are best seen as a Southeast Mongoloid Race with some Australoid elements. They are probably best seen as Neomongoloids as opposed to Paleomongoloids.

References

Cuong, N.L. 1996. Anthropological Research on Ðôngsonian Skeletons (in Vietnamese). Hanoi.

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Filed under Agricutlure, Anthropology, Asia, Asian, Asians, China, Chinese (Ethnic), Cultural, History, Indonesians, Melanesians, Oceanians, Physical, Race/Ethnicity, Regional, SE Asia, SE Asian, SE Asians, Taiwan, Taiwanese Aborigines, Vietnam, Vietnamese

Every Race Is a New Race

From here.

This is so perfect.

Problem is that ancient Caucasoids look anything but Caucasoid, and ancient Northern Eurasians look anything but Northern Eurasian. Both ancient Caucasoids and ancient Northern Eurasians looked like Australoids or Paleomongoloids phenotypically.

It is important to note that phenotypically, all races are modern.

The Aborigines showed up ~15,000 YBP (13-17,000 YBP). Much more archaic types are known before then, including some that look like Homo Erectus.

Even the Khoisan are only known from 12,000 YBP.

Modern Europeans do not show up until 11,000 YBP. Before that, Europeans genetically and phenotypically resemble Arabs. The “White race” is very new. Sorry Alt Reichers.

The modern Negroid race does not show up until 6-12,000 YBP.

Modern Amerindians only show up 8,000 YBP. Before that, they look first Australoid (Lacondon Woman) and then Australoid-Paleomongoloid transitional or Ainuid (Kennebunk Man).

Polynesians and Micronesians only show up 3,000 YBP. Before that, no one lived on those islands.

SE Asians are quite new and have only appeared in the last 5,000 years. Before that, they looked like Aborigines, Negritos, Veddoids or Melanesians (Australoids).

Modern Thais only show up 900 YBP. Before that, they were Paleomongoloids.

Modern South Indians only appear 8,000 YBP. Before that, they looked like Veddoids types or Aborigines (Australoids).

All skulls from Vietnam, Thailand and Malaysia from 2,500-25,000 YBP appear Australoid. They look like either Aborigines, Veddoids or Melanesians. Vietnamese anthropologists have studied Vietnamese skulls from 21,000 YBP to present, and the unmistakable conclusion is that the originally Australoid Melanesian skulls slowly from 21,000 YBP become more gracile and finally evolve into full Neomongoloid only 2,300 YBP.

Early Northern Eurasians may have looked like Australoids.

One of the oldest Proto-Caucasoid skulls from 35,000 YBP in the Caucasus has been classed as Australoid.

At the archeological digs in Northern China, skulls prior to 9,000 YBP look like Aborigines (probably Ainuid Australoids). At 9,000 YBP, they transition into Mongoloids, maybe with Caucasoid input.

Anyway, ancient Caucasoids look anything but. 22,000 YBP Caucasoids from Central Europe look more like the Makah Indians of NW Washington State than anyone else. So Europeans at this time looked like Paleomongoloids.

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If People Did Just This One Thing, There Would be Hardly any High Blood Pressure or Obesity on Earth

What’s that one thing? Quit eating salt. Eat from 65-300 mg of salt/day for your whole life, and you will probably never get overweight, nor will you get high blood pressure.

The Yanonamo have also been studied by medical researchers of hypertension because there has never been a case of high blood pressure recorded among this group in an aboriginal state. There is a simple reason for this, but no one accepts it. The reason is that they only ingest ~65mg of salt per day for their whole lives. This tribe also has never recorded one case of obesity.

Keep in mind that these are probably some of the violent people on Earth, and one would assume that their lives are rather stressful. Their lives are characterized by high levels of violence. Yet all of this “stress” doesn’t seem to raise their blood pressure one bit. So much for the stress = hypertension theory. Stress alone will not give any human being high blood pressure. It is neither necessary nor sufficient to cause this condition. It can cause it in combination with another factor though.

Another group in the Solomon Islands was found recently, a village of 3,000 people who did not have one case of either high blood pressure or obesity. However, one of the villagers left to move to an urban area where he stopped eating his village diet and lived instead on modern foods, and he became overweight and developed high blood pressure. This group also eats almost no salt – under 300mg/day.

High blood pressure is caused by excessive salt ingestion. Other factors add onto it and act in concert with that, but the bottom line is that if all of us ate less than 300mg of salt a day for our whole lives, there would be little if any high blood pressure in modern society. Nobody believes this because the “salt theory” has fallen by the wayside, but that’s bad science.

What happens is that excessive salt ingestion poisons and damages the kidneys of many modern people. The kidneys become damaged by the salt, and then high blood pressure may develop either alone or in concert with other factors.

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Filed under Amerindians, Biology, Health, Illness, Melanesians, Nutrition, Oceanians, Pacific, Race/Ethnicity, Science

The India-Australia Connection

The genetic link between India and Australia is not conclusive. Most recent Genetics paper on the earlier mentioned links has found no recent links.

Also Dravidian and Veddoid are 2 different races. Some Veddoid have taken up Dravidian languages just as other Veddoid have taken up Indo-Aryan.

In Sri Lanka is the only distinct Vedda population and they speak a creole that is neither Dravidian nor Indo-Aryan; it shares more with Indo-Aryan but has a substratum that is distinct and different from Dravidian and Indo-Aryan. India does not have distinct Vedda populations as they have linguistically and culturally assimilated into the surrounding Dravidian,Indo-Aryan and Munda speaking populations.

I would certainly agree that a recent India-Australia link is not proven.

My argument was that those people we call Aborigines are new people. Supposedly they supplanted most of the original people. They are said to have come from India and Thailand 12-17,000 YBP. Any genetic relation that far back will not show up in genes.

Furthermore, Veddoids and other primitive types in India (yes, there are some in India, not just Sri Lanka) have skulls that plot Australoid next to Papuans, Melanesians and Aborigines. If there is no connection, why do they have the same skulls? Tamils also have Australoid skulls showing the same connections.

There is a very ancient and primitive group in Nepal called the Nahali. The language was long thought to be an isolate and was recently thought to be extinct. However some speakers were found not long ago. More recent though highly controversial studies suggest that Nahali is an Indo-Pacific language related to the languages of New Guinea. I believe this connection is correct. If there is no connection between India and Australia, why the language connection?

Also, the Andaman Islanders are Australoids by skulls. So once again we have an Australian connection with the most primitive people of India by skulls. Some theories suggest that the Andaman languages, long considered isolates, are related to Indo-Pacific languages. Joseph Greenberg thought so. I am not sure how well that is backed up, but if it is true, once again, we see a connection between India and Australia.

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Filed under Aborigines, Andaman Islanders, Anthropology, Asia, Australia, Dravidian, East Indians, India, Language Families, Linguistics, Melanesians, Negritos, Nepal, Oceanians, Papuans, Physical, Race/Ethnicity, Regional, SE Asians, South Asia, South Asians, Sri Lankans

Racial Categorization- The Oceanian Paradox

ultracool writes: This is a very interesting and insightful post, I see you are very intelligent and bold to write all this stuff, Robert. Still I think the problem with genes is that they don’t always match appearance, I think that were you to sort races according to physical traits only, you could put most Oceanians in the same race as Africans, as they share several traits like dark skin, thick lips and kinky hair, though I am not sure about Australians as they have quite a distinct look.

Even if you do physical appearance, you cannot throw those people in with Africans. Those people are Australoids – Melanesians, Papuans, Negritos, Senoi, Veddoids, Tamils, Aborigines, a few Polynesians, Ainu and a few Amerindians such as Tierra del Fuegans and some Baja Californians have very similar skulls. All of the skulls plot right together on a chart. Granted, Australoid and African skulls are close to each other on charts, but they do plot differently.

Polynesians and Micronesians are different – they are an Australoid-Mongoloid mix. Their genes plot with Asians, and their skulls plot differently from Australoids. However, some Polynesian skulls plot next to other Australoids such as the Ainu.

Australoid genes are all over the map. Melanesian genes plot next to other Oceanians with a subgroup of Island SE Asians that also includes some Indonesians. Philippines Negritos plot with Filipinos. Thai Negritos plot with Thais. Andaman Islanders plot off on their own, possibly in two completely different major races. Veddoids and Tamils plot with the other Indian Caucasians. Papuans and Aborigines are related only to each other and even then only very distantly, and they are very far from everyone else. Next to Africans and Andaman Islanders, Papuans and Aborigines are are the other oldest races. Outside of Africa, Andaman Islanders and Thai Negritos are the oldest races.

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Filed under Aborigines, Ainu, Amerindians, Andaman Islanders, Anthropology, Asians, Blacks, East Indians, Filipinos, Indonesians, Melanesians, Micronesians, Negritos, Northeast Asians, Oceanians, Papuans, Physical, Polynesians, Race/Ethnicity, SE Asians, South Asians, Thai

Archaic Hominids Surviving into the Modern Era

Prior to the arrival of the modern Aborigines in Australia, an even more archaic group lived in the subcontinent.

The Kow Swamp skull from 22,000 YBP in Australia represents some of these people. This is one of the most archaic skulls ever found during the modern Homo sapiens era. Although Kow Swamp is called Homo Sapiens, the skull has prominent Homo Erectus features. It is probably a mix between more modern Sapiens types and more archaic and Erectus-like pre-Sapiens types. It is now known that pre-Sapiens archaic hominids survived in the form of Denisova Man from 39,000 YBP in southern Russia, Sulu Man from Indonesia 25,000 YBP, the Red Deer Cave people from central China, Flores Man from Flores Island in Indonesia, and Neandertals from the Russian subarctic, all from 12,000 YBP.

Based on probably true accounts of local people, Flores Man appears to have survived into the late 1800’s, when their habits of stealing human children and eating them finally enraged the local humans so much that they set fire to the main cave where the Flores People lived.

The Neandertals and Red Deer Cave people are assumed to have died out 12,000 YBP when their last traces were found.

Denisova Man is kn own  only from the single cave in southern Russia 39,000 YBP,  but his genes are also present in Papuans and Melanesians. These Australoid groups appeared in the region ~40,000 YBP. So Denisova Man was also present in Oceania around the same time that he was living in Russia.

Sulu Man is thought to be actually a very late surviving Erectus.

Flores Man is also Erectus, a very primitive type going all the way back to the earliest Habilis era of Erectus around the time of the split between Australopithecus.

Denisova Man is a new type resembling Neandertal and best seen as very early archaic Sapiens.

Red Deer Cave people are probably best seen as very late surviving Heidelbergensis types. Heidelbergensis is an archaic Sapiens type that is known from southern Europe, mostly Spain, from 500,000 YBP. They are best seen as Erectus-Sapiens transitionals.

Neandertals of course are archaic Sapiens similar to Denisovans.

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Filed under Anthropology, Asia, Australia, China, Eurasia, Europe, Indonesia, Melanesians, Oceanians, Pacific, Papuans, Physical, Race/Ethnicity, Regional, Russia, SE Asia

The Australoid Connection Between India and Australia

There were originally Australoids in Australia of course, but no one knows what they looked like. The may have looked like Negritos. The first Whites to Australia had stories about Aborigines waging wars of extermination on very small and very dark people whose description looks a lot like Negritos. The original Aborigines may have looked like either Negritos, Papuans or Melanesians. Papuans have an Australoid line going back a long ways. The Melanesian line goes back 40,000 YBP and is incredibly diverse.

Most modern Aborigines are a mixture of Murrayans who came out of Thailand ~17,000 YBP and went to Australia, the Philippines and eventually to Japan 13,000 YBP. This was a Veddoid type group that eventually became the Ainu in Japan. Yet another group was known as Carpinterians. They came from India 13,000 YBP. Some of the more primitive looking tribals or even possibly Tamils may be related to this group, as they do look something like modern Aborigines.

The modern day Aborigines are a mixture between Carpinterians and Murrayans.

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Filed under Aborigines, Ainu, Anthropology, Asia, Asians, Australia, India, Japan, Melanesians, NE Asia, Negritos, Northeast Asians, Oceanians, Papuans, Philippines, Physical, Race/Ethnicity, Regional, SE Asia, SE Asians, South Asia

Thais and Vietnamese Compared Racially

Who are more archaic? Vietnamese or Thai?

Thai, I think. Thais transitioned to Neomongoloid probably only 900 YBP. Vietnamese transitioned to Neomongoloid 2,300 YBP. The more recent the transition, the more archaic features will be preserved. The older the transition, the more the archaic features will tend to have gone out. This is because generally humans sexually select for progressive features and against archaic features, at least nowadays anyway.

Southern Chinese – Most progressive Southern Neomongoloid with few if any archaic features. Transition to Neomongoloid probably 4-5,000 YBP.

Vietnamese – Moderately progressive Southern Neomongoloid with some archaic features. Transition to Neomongoloid 2,300 YBP.

Thai – Least progressive Southern Neomongoloid with more archaic features. Transition to Neomongoloid 900 YBP.

In all three cases, the previous stock that transitioned to Neomongoloid was probably an Australoid type, even in Southern China. This is why Afrocentrists go on and on about “Black Chinese” –  there were quite a few dark people with frizzy hair in Southern China 5,000 YBP.

Vietnamese certainly transitioned from a Melanesian type. The earliest Vietnamese skulls from 22,000 YBP are clearly Melanesian.

Thais probably transitioned from some sort of an Australoid type, but it’s not known which. It may have been a Veddoid type.

In the case of the Vietnamese and the Thai, the transition to Neomongoloid occurred as a consequence of a mass invasion or movement of Southern Chinese into their regions.

There was a huge invasion of Vietnam by Cantonese Chinese 2,300 YBP. That is why Vietnamese is full of Cantonese borrowings.

There was a very large movement o unknown character by Yunnanese Chinese into Thailand 900 YBP that appears to have significantly changed the Thai phenotype.

The case of Southern China is less clear, but as Northern Chinese transitioned to Neomongoloid 9,000 YBP, 4,500 years before the Southern Chinese, the Southern Chinese transition to Neomongoloid probably occurred due to a mass movement of Northern Chinese to the south. But that is only conjecture.

Also more progressive phenotypes tend to have higher IQ’s than more archaic phenotypes. I am not exactly sure why that is honestly.

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Filed under Anthropology, Asians, Chinese (Ethnic), Intelligence, Melanesians, Oceanians, Physical, Psychology, Race/Ethnicity, SE Asians, Thai, Vietnamese

More on South Asian Genetics, with a Note on Ashkenazi Jews

Here is a followup to my Indian friend’s post on South Asian genetics. Interesting stuff, and also goes into the genetics of Europeans in some details. Good post on Caucasoid/Non-Caucasoid mixture the world over.

Robert, just as an addendum/clarification to my post above:

I’d first like to address the point I made about the genetic makeup of South Asians, including Indians:

I’m glad you appreciated my post and accepted the validity of the crux of it, especially the major point that Indians have two major ancestral components, ANI and ASI, with ANI being closest to modern-day Georgians and 100% Caucasian in genetic makeup and ASI being a ~60%-40% mix of Caucasian and ancient South-East Asian (related to the ANE component in Europeans) respectively. I also pointed out that the 40-50% of ASI that is non-Caucasian is ancient South-East Asian admixture for the majority of South Asians, and that it has nothing to do with any other source population.

However, I noticed that you mentioned something about the Australoid-like component in a minority of (lowest-caste) South and East Indians that show up on a few charts (though not the majority). It seems like you are implying that other Indian populations might also have this admixture. This is completely, patently false.

While I conceded that these isolated tribal groups in the South and Far East of India have a few genetic markers pertaining to Australoid-like populations, I carefully pointed out the fact that other mainland, Subcontinental populations have NO Australoid genetic ancestry to speak of. This includes all other Indians who do not belong to these super-small minorities that live in isolation and are composed of tribal groups and untouchables outside of the caste system.

As far as the tribal populations I alluded to earlier are concerned, it is true that some members among them share certain markers with a common ancestor of Australoid-like people, as recent genetic research has shown:

http://blog.23andme.com/news/direct-genetic-link-between-australia-and-india-provides-new-insight-into-the-origins-of-australian-aborigines/

However, this is only limited to a super-small minority of tribes that are exceptionally geographically and racially isolated with no contact with the outside world. Even these tribes have been shown to be more similar to each other than to Australoid-like populations, as has been published in peer-reviewed research:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/6479999

Let me restate and clarify what the latest archaeogenetic research has conclusively shown about the genetics of mainland Indians that belong to the vast majority of castes and sub-castes in India (excluding tribals):

There is no evidence whatsoever to suggest that ASI or the South Indian component in Indians is related to modern-day Australoids or even Negritos. These are the fst distances, the most widely used measure of genetic distance between populations, between ASI and other populations:

Caucasian: 0.077
Baloch: 0.08
NE Asian: 0.081
NE Euro: 0.082
SE Asian: 0.084
SW Asian: 0.091
Siberian: 0.093
Mediterranean: 0.095
Beringian: 0.116
E African: 0.122
American: 0.128
W African: 0.142
Papuan: 0.145
Pygmy: 0.188
San: 0.203
BTW, Here are the Fst distances for your perusal:

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AuW3R0Ys-P4HdDhib1M5OE1wWENNb2haUFFWZzNBMEE#gid=2

If one actually reads this fst distance spreadsheet I posted above (with data from Reich et.al and other Harvard geneticists), it is clear that the South Indian/ASI component is closest to Gedrosia (at 0.081) followed by Caucasus (at 0.082) and East Asian (at 0.085) and Northern European at (0.086). This clearly shows that it’s actually closer to Gedrosia and Caucasus than the East Asian components. Again, the component is closest to Caucasian, Baloch, NE Asian, NE Euro and SE Asian in that order. So its closer to Caucasian populations, followed by a Mongoloid South-East Asian population, followed by a North-Eastern European population.

In other words, the ASI/South Indian component is actually closer to Caucasian populations than even Mongoloid populations, and it is nowhere near close to Australoid populations. In fact, it’s even closer to North Eastern Europeans than Australoids and closer to West and East African than the Papuan component!

We all know very well that apart from the Siddis and Makranis (exceptionally small, endogamous communities of Africans found on the West Coast of India thanks to the Arab slave trade) there is no SSA/Sub-Saharan African or Negroid genetic influence in South Asia to speak of, so the long-parroted hogwash about there being an Australoid-like component in Indian populations is nothing but hot air. It’s like saying that Indians are part Negroid, which is laughable but according to the distances, it would still be less laughable than saying that they are part-Australoid. In other words, the whole Australoid theory is utterly wrong.

Also, the South Indian component clusters slightly closer to the West Eurasian components and in particular Gedrosia, a Caucasian component. Being roughly intermediate between the Siberian and Gedrosia components does NOT make the South Asian component Australoid in any way. Especially, when the HAP South Indian component is almost twice as close to the Caucasian component than it is to the Papuan component.

I’m not saying the South Indian component is completely West Eurasian, but it’s clearly mixed between ANI and ASI with the majority being ANI. In addition, Australoids cluster closest to East Eurasians (in particular Southeast Asians) than other populations. The South Asian/South Indian component is intermediate between Siberian and Gedrosia, Siberian being East Asia, and Gedrosia being Caucasian. It is actually slightly closer to Caucasian components than East Eurasian components, therefore, the component is ~60% Caucasian in nature, as I explained earlier. In fact, that is what Reich suggested in his original paper on ANI-ASI. That it represents ancestry that is not particularly close to either West or East Eurasians, but marginally closer to the Caucasian component, hence the 60% value again.

The South Indian component is so distant from the Papuan “Australoid-like” component that its laughable to suggest any connection as I explained above. Again, as the fst distances show, it is actually the furthest from all blacks, and then Papuans — Papuans are even further removed from the South Indian component than the East and West Africans! So there is no relation to Australoids/Onge or Papuans at all. If anything, there is a pull towards East Asians, who themselves are closest to some Negrito populations but still quite far away from them.

Some South Asians pull towards East Asians like all of Europe, particularly Northern and Eastern Europe and even Southern Europe in general, with the same affinities to the same populations, because of the ASI admixture which is present in Europeans in ANE form, which BTW is also 10% SE Asian and Australoid-like according to the latest research. Furthermore, the unusually high South and Southeast Asian scores in some Europeans can be explained by shared ANE ancestry with South Asians (in the form of ASI).

I’d also like to add that Melanesians and Papuans cluster in an isolated position by themselves and are somewhat divergent from one another, while South Asians are closest to West Eurasians with a pull toward East Eurasians. All that means is that the ASI portion of the South Indian component split less recently from the ancestors of the Papuans compared to other populations and is South-East Asian in nature. In addition, any fst distance over 0.1 is still quite distant.

Also, Dravidians have been hypothesized to be Caucasoids before admixing with Asians in India. Is it not possible the Brahui are the remnants of the original Dravidian speaking Neolithic West Asian farmers? While the rest of the Dravidian speakers migrated deeper into the subcontinent, the Brahui somehow got isolated in the Gedrosia/Balochistan region but retained their Dravidian language albeit with significant Balochi influence.

As for Mehrgarh, the Dravidians of that region weren’t forever sedentary. So what I am saying is, some of them did go to West Asian regions. BTW, recently they found Indian mtdna in ancient people all the way in Syria:

http://dienekes.blogspot.com/2013/09/ancient-mtdna-haplogroup-m-from-syria.html

If Indian mtdna has been found in ancient Syrians, then you can be pretty sure that the Dravidians did go to Iran as well.

In essence, Indians are Mediterranean Whites, with ancestry closest to present-day Georgians, with some Ancient SE Asian admixture of varying levels, based on caste + region of origin. Indians are dark due to the tropical, humid climate, high UV levels and micro-evolution and sexual selection resulting from living in the subcontinent. Also, the fact that their Caucasian component is Mediterranean, specifically, Georgian in nature, combined with their proficient tanning ability and mutation and variation specific to Indian evolution along with the ancient SE Asian admix, also gave them a unique appearance and complexion.

I’d like to conclude by reiterating the fact that the average South Asian is 75% Caucasian and 25% Asian; on 23andme- Indians score 60-95% European, and the Central/West Eurasian Caucasoid component varies from 70-95% in NW India and 50-70% in South India. Here is an ancestry chromosome painting of an archetypal upper-caste Indian man from the NW of India:

As you can see, this man is 90% Caucasian and 10% Asian, and fits right in with the genetic data above. That conclusively proves all of the points/studies/data outlined above. Now I’ll address the other two points you made.

Now, as far as the point you made regarding Ashkenazi Jews not having Negroid admixture, note how I said that their admixture was distributed between Mongoloid and Negroid, not evenly so. Anyway, here are a couple studies that support my earlier point about them being 16.47% admixed with Negroid and Mongoloid:

“Serum samples from Armenians, and from Libyan and Ashkenazi Jews living in Israel were tested for Gm (1, 2, 3, 5, 6, 10, 11, 13, 14, 17, 21, 24, 26) and for Inv(1) [Km(1)]. The Gm data indicate that all three populations have Negroid and Mongoloid admixture. The minimum amount of admixture varies from 3.1% (Armenians) to 5.5% (Libyan Jews). This admixture had not been detected by the study of other polymorphisms, thus once again underlining the sensitivity of the Gm system.

The haplotype frequencies among the Libyan Jews are markedly different from those among the Ashkenazi Jews. Surprisingly (coincidentally?) the haplotype frequencies among the Ashkenazi Jews and the Armenians are similar. The Libyan Jews have a significantly higher frequency of Inv 1 than do the Ashkenazi Jews and among the latter, Inv 1 is at least twice as frequent among Polish Jews as it is among Russian Jews.”
More at this Link:

http://www.springerlink.com/content/t76x467633412wwj/

Further, more evidence regarding the admixture of Ashkenazi Jews:
“According to Behar et. al. (2004), 5% of Ashkenazi DNA consists of Central Asian/Siberian Mongoloid Y-DNA Haplogroup Q. Y-DNA R-M17 (R1a1a) chromosomes have been detected at frequencies of 11.5% by Nebel et. al. (2004) and are of Central Asian origin with a probable vector of transmission in the Turko-Mongoloid Khazars. If we accept a proximate Turko-Mongoloid origin for Khazar Eu 19 chromosomes as was proposed by Nebel et. al. (2004), it could be argued that 16.5% of Ashkenazi Y-DNA is of Mongoloid origin. Admixture ratios for Ashkenazi mtDNA might be even higher. And of course, Negroid admixture (being approximately 1%) is negligible.”

Even more evidence:
“According to the supplementary data of Behar et. al. (2004) on low-frequency Ashkenazi mtDNA’s, they have a total of 3.7% non-Caucasoid maternal admixture, with the Negroid mtDNA haplogroup L2a being the most common at 1.8%.”
Link:

http://dienekes.50webs.com/blog/archives/000625.html

And more evidence yet again:
“I also forgot to mention that Behar et. al. (2004) also indicates that Ashkenazi Jews have non-Caucasoid Y-DNA haplogroups N and E*(xE3b), for a grand total of 6.1% non-Caucasoid ancestry (including Q). Added to R-M17, this comes out to 17.6% Mongoloid admixture.”

Link: http://dienekes.50webs.com/blog/archives/000627.html

“The presence of three haplotypes at very low frequencies (0.3– 1.5%) in Jewish and Middle Eastern non-Jewish populations (1A, 3A, and YAP1 5) may be explained by low levels of gene flow from sub-Saharan African populations. This conclusion is consistent with the observed presence of low frequencies of African mtDNA haplotypes in Jewish populations (16). Two haplotypes (1U and 1C) that are common in Asian populations (33) were present at low frequencies in Jewish and Middle Eastern non-Jewish populations.
(Table 1).”

“Autosomal DNA and mitochondrial DNA samples of Ashkenazic Jews occasionally reveal faint signals of descent from Sub-Saharan Africans from West, Central, South, and East Africa who belong to the Negroid race, which is typified by the Bantu peoples and differentiated from the Pygmy and Bushmen races as well as from the North African Caucasoids (white Berbers and Coptic Egyptians). The hairstyle amusingly called the “Jewfro”, sported by those rare Ashkenazim who have very curly hair of a kinky sort and don’t artificially straighten it, is a probable physical indicator of this descent.

Most Ashkenazic Jews, however, have no genetic trace of Sub-Saharan African descent. Scientific laboratory admixture tests usually show that most Ashkenazim are basically zero percent Sub-Saharan autosomally. This page collects anecdotes from Ashkenazim who did inherit this ancestry. Genetic testing reveals that some (but not all) Ashkenazic Jews from Eastern Europe descend a little bit from Sub-Saharan African black people.

Comprehensive maternal and paternal haplogroup analysis shows that a woman, rather than a man, was the source of this ancestry. (The common Ashkenazic Y-DNA haplogroup E1b1b1 originated with Caucasoid or proto-Caucasoid people living in northeast Africa or Arabia. As noted above, E1a1a1 might likewise be rooted with Caucasoids of ancient northeast Africa.)”
More at this link:

http://www.khazaria.com/genetics/aj-ss-african-admixture.html

And finally, the kicker, the latest study demonstrating the obvious Negroid admixture in all Jews, including the Ashkenazim:

http://journals.plos.org/plosgenetics/article?id=10.1371/journal.pgen.1001373

From the abstract: “Previous genetic studies have suggested a history of sub-Saharan African gene flow into some West Eurasian populations after the initial dispersal out of Africa that occurred at least 45,000 years ago. However, there has been no accurate characterization of the proportion of mixture, or of its date. We analyze genome-wide polymorphism data from about 40 West Eurasian groups to show that almost all Southern Europeans have inherited 1%–3% African ancestry with an average mixture date of around 55 generations ago, consistent with North African gene flow at the end of the Roman Empire and subsequent Arab migrations.

Levantine groups harbor 4%–15% African ancestry with an average mixture date of about 32 generations ago, consistent with close political, economic, and cultural links with Egypt in the late middle ages. We also detect 3%–5% sub-Saharan African ancestry in all eight of the diverse Jewish populations that we analyzed. For the Jewish admixture, we obtain an average estimated date of about 72 generations. This may reflect descent of these groups from a common ancestral population that already had some African ancestry prior to the Jewish Diasporas.”

So there, that proves without a doubt, that the Ashkenazim are heavily admixed between Mongoloids and Negroids, along with certain Southern European population groups (as you well know already).

Finally, just to clarify, I didn’t say that ANE originated in Amerindians, on the contrary, I stated that “All non-Sardinian Europeans have been shown to have significant amounts of ANE ancestry due to the Malt’a boy mentioned earlier, and this ANE ancestry is related to/is the same as ASI ancestry in South Asians, relating Europeans to Amerindians and East Asians….the ANE component is composed of 45% Mongoloid and Australoid-like ancestry (similar to the distant relation that some South Asians have to proto-Australoids), and the Malt’a boy also has a proto-Australoid ASE component on the order of 10%….

This ANE component peaks in the Karitiana Indians of South America….It is also pertinent to point out the fact that ANE ancestry in all Europeans with the exception of Sardinians (who have very minor ANE ancestry) is mostly (45-55%) non-Caucasoid in nature, and does not include separate additional East Asian ancestry that is due to much more recent admixture with Mongoloids from the Golden Horde and other admixture events….

ANE or NE Asian is best thought of as very ancient Asian admixture…What this paper definitively shows (as do successive papers recently released after it) is that Europeans, especially Northern Europeans, have huge amounts of NE Asian, also known as ANE, admixture. This is because they are descended in part from an Amerindian population….What is the actual amount? Well, remember that ANE or NE Asian is made up of two components – one is Caucasian and related to Levantine ancestry and the other is related to NE Asia/Siberians and the American Indians, peaking in the Karitiana Indians of South America.”

In essence, what I stated is that the ANE found in Europeans links them to Amerindian populations because both groups have ANE ancestry, and the ANE component is composed of 45% Mongoloid and Australoid-like ancestry (similar to the distant relation that some South Asians have to proto-Australoids), and the Malt’a boy also has a proto-Australoid ASE component on the order of 10%., and this ANE component peaks in the Karitiana Indians of South America.

And it does look like Northern Europeans are truly descended in part from a population which has affinities to the “First Americans.” I say this specifically because the Siberian samples they tested actually gave a weaker result than the South American Amerindians on the 3-population test, showing that they are descended from an ancestral East Asia population that is Amerindian-like and that has affinities to the Amerindians of today. More info here:

http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/gnxp/2012/09/across-the-sea-of-grass-how-northern-europeans-got-to-be-10-northeast-asian/#.VfRxbs44JNZ

Just a final note, caste is NOT genetically arbitrary, despite what some lower-caste Indians and Blacks and Hispanics and Europeans may claim; all the scientific evidence and data we have so far completely contradicts this notion.

In other words, castes are not arbitrary units made up by the British to divide the South Asian population — they have a solid basis in thousands of years of systematic endogamous practices to the exclusion of less Caucasian individuals.

In essence, the Hindu caste system was set up by the Indo-Aryan Caucasians to ensure that they would retain as much of their Caucasian blood as possible, and it seems like they definitely succeeded in that endeavor as well as if not better than most Caucasoids (including some European and Russian populations) worldwide, then at the very least, equal to Caucasoid populations worldwide, from the Europeans to the Middle Easterners to the Levantines to even some Northern African groups that are less admixed with Negroid populations. Here is more information on the scientific evidence that backs up the existence and validity of caste:

http://www.harappadna.org/2011/06/caste-is-not-ancestrally-arbitrary/

And always remember, if you ever come across a Hindu who looks distinctively lower caste and claims to be upper-caste, then he is nothing but a pariah pretending to be upper-caste, an exercise that lower-caste individuals frequently engage in, using a process known as “Sanskritization” the existence of which was noted by British Anthropologists during the Raj.

Common symptoms of this include: Changing the surname to a higher-caste one, adopting practices of the higher caste, and earning immense wealth in an attempt to gain a bride of the higher castes. Lots of Indian Americans are guilty of this; which is why so many Indian Americans with higher-caste surnames like “Singh” look lower caste — they are impostors, not genuine higher caste individuals (and looking lower caste doesn’t have much to do with skin color (although, as a rule, upper-caste individuals aren’t darker than brown when untanned) but with facial features, bone structure, hirsuteness, and body structure, and of course, genetics.)

That sums it up. Let me know if you’d like more information about anything. Of course, all of these studies are freely available for anyone’s perusal.

That’s all. Hope that helps you understand the complex demographics of India.

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The Breathtaking Effects of Culture Should Not Be Underestimated

hypothetically, if you are good at reading people, you are good at sensing their true motivations. and we know that HBD’ers and racists generally will often say that “blacks won’t civilize after we give them civilization.”

If the HBD’ers and racists say that, they are just wrong.

My point would be that West Africans are the “raw material” of US Blacks. That’s their starting point. And I am 100% certain that that’s where the US Blacks would be without 400 years in the West.

The difference in behavior between US Blacks and West Africans is in my opinion shocking. I started to ask myself why this was. US Blacks are 25% White, but are those fancy White genes really enough to do much to counteract the 75% Black genes? A genetic conclusion seemed unlikely. The only other thing I could think of was culture.

Acculturation. Civilization if you will. The American Black, the Negro, is simply the product of 400 years of civilizing Western Christian higher civilization. And the difference between US Blacks and their true raw material, the pre-contact Africans, seems so incomprehensible that one is tempted to conclude that they are from two different planets. In some ways, the differences were so extreme that there seemed to be no way that this change could be due to culture, but apparently it was.

Even HBD’ers and race realists should not dismiss culture, acculturation and civilization in radically changing the behavior of human groups. Culture is what I would call a “super-environment.” It is so potentially powerful that it is almost scary.

In addition to my recent exposure to West Africans, I have now read many explorer notes from the first White explorers to Africa. The notes are unbelievable. They found such savagery, brutality, viciousness, sheer evil, stupidity, sloth, dullness, horror, selfishness, etc. that it is almost hard to comprehend. In short, many humans in an uncivilized state are unbelievably awful. They are simply brutes on the level of raw animals or even worse. They’re not even Hobbesian. They are worse. They’re a walking idiotic, insipid horrorshow.

I read those accounts not so much as an account of the inferiority of Blacks in a primitive state. I saw those pre-contact Blacks instead as emblematic of simply humanity in the wild.

And indeed, uncivilized Melanesians, Polynesians, Taiwanese, Andaman Islanders, Australians, Papuans, Amerindians, etc. acted or continue to act somewhere near as bad as the pre-contact Blacks in these reports, if not even worse. Melanesians, Taiwanese, Polynesians have dramatically improved since contact 150 years ago.

The Taiwanese are as civilized as Japanese. 90 years ago, they were headhunters.

150 years of modernizing civilization turned even the shockingly vicious Maori into “new men.”

I saw a recent report of a contact with Andaman Islanders, and they make modern West Africans seem like choirboys. The level of sheer raw animalism was stunning.

A crew studying these people invited a few Andaman Islander women onto their boat. Within the space of maybe 30 minutes, the women were caught stealing over and over. They would try to rip off anything they saw. It was explained to them that these items belonged to other humans and were not theirs, and they just didn’t get it. They even tried to pull watches off men so they could steal them.

They also made a great big racket for no reason and basically acted like 3 year olds. With one crucial difference. In that half hour, the women repeatedly approached different men on the boat, started grabbing the men’s bodies and genitals, grabbing their own breasts and genitals, exposing themselves, and grinding up against the men. What was going on?

These animal-like women tried repeatedly to fuck several different men on the boat, going from man to man and trying on new men after one man pushed her away. If allowed to, they would have fucked these White men right there in the boat in full view of everyone with scarcely a care in the world.

That sort of behavior is far worse than you will see in any modern West African, and it probably shows that Africans not only reached a higher civilization level pre-contact or 200 years’ experience with the modern world in terms of colonization and modernity has dramatically improved and civilized even Africans beyond their pre-contact state.

Which is truly amazing, considering that in my opinion, these people generally act awful. Sure, right now they seem like the worst, but you should have seen them 200 years ago! They’ve gotten so much better that it’s like night and day. And Andaman Islanders even today are more savage and animalistic than even most pre-contact Africans. One wonders if there is a lower limit on human savagery. It almost seems like there literally is no bottom.

Some Amerindian tribes in the Amazon are still stunningly vicious, primitive and animalistic, though their societies function unlike collapsed West Africa, and they are not nearly as primal as Andaman Islanders or even pre-contact Africans.

Yet Amazonian tribes can be monstrous. Put a bowl of food down in front of a Piraha, and he will eat every single thing on the plate, not leaving a scrap. Whatever they have is used up immediately. They don’t save anything because they don’t even have the concept. They have two numbers – one and more, and only a few colors – lighter, darker and not much else. They don’t believe in time and could care less about calendars, watches, etc. which they consider meaningless and idiotic.

They are so ethnocentric that they consider all non-Piraha to be so utterly inferior that they are barely even worth talking to. Shown objects of modernity, they laugh and reject them as idiocies created by preposterously inferior humans.  They refuse to learn Portuguese as it is the language of  “those moronic inferior fools.”

In recent years, a number of uncontacted Amazonian tribes have disappeared. Others were thought to have vanished but instead were reduced to very low levels, and they slowly built back up. Over and over in reports of Amazonian tribes in the 20th Century one reads, “genocided.” The reports say, “genocided in 1944 by unknown group,” or “attempted genocide recently, few remain.” It was incredible how many tribes had not just engaged in pointless and horrific tribal warfare, but had either been exterminated or had experienced attempted exterminations by other groups.

Because this is what man does in a primitive state. He wars with all the groups around him, and it is common that the wars become so diabolical that one group simply overruns the other group and attempts to wipe them off the face of the Earth – men, women, children, old men, anyone and everyone.

This is what humans do. We exterminate each other. Genocide is a normal behavior for humans, a way of life. It’s how we live.

A tribe called the Yanonamo is one of the most vicious and unhinged tribes recorded. The men are frighteningly violent. They beat their wives with great frequency, and children are regularly beaten too. Childhood for a Yanonamo child is an endless series of beatings. The men engage in continuous tribal warfare with other groups in which fatalities occur regularly. In addition, Yanonamo men murder each other regularly over disputes, which are quite common and often heated. It has been estimated that by age 40, every surviving Yanonamo man has committed at least one murder.

The tribal Afar in Ethiopia fetishize violence and murder. Tribal war is common, and almost all Afar men past a certain age have murdered another man, usually from another group. In fact, an Afar woman will not consider marrying any man until he has committed at least one murder! You want to get laid? You better start killing people. A man who murders more than one man becomes better in the eyes of the women, and many of the best Afar women hold out for men who have committed 3, 4 or better yet 5 murders. But the ultimate Alphas, the men sought after by every Afar women, are the Ted Bundys of the tribe. These men have killed 10 or more murders. They are the ultimate studs.

I do not believe that all humans in an uncivilized state act awful and horrific. But a lot of them do, and as you can see, races capable of the nadir of Hobbesian brutishness span across the human genome. Even IQ scores widely vary from ~62 for pure Aborigines all the way up to 90 for the Maori. So you see, even dramatically increasing the intelligence of a human in the wild doesn’t necessarily civilize him or make him act better. A full two standard deviations rise, and the brutality and evil either remains the same, or possibly in the case of Maori, becomes even worse.

What is the point of this post? That civilization, which is really just acculturation and cultural change, has striking effects on humans. The civilizing mission is a good thing and most if not all groups acting badly or engaging in primitive or less civilized behavior are capable of acting better, even breathtaking better, simply via the super-environment known as culture, acculturation, or civilization.

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