Category Archives: Left

Alt Left: Identity Politics Is about What You Are, Not What You Do or Believe In

Zamfir: So what is your basis for objecting to whites who hate non-whites or Muslims who hate non-Muslims?

I don’t like haters, especially those who hate others for something as core to the self as race or religion. I don’t believe in hating whole races or religious groups. You can’t change your race at all and it’s hard to change your religion. You are born with your race and often with your religion.

I don’t like bigots.

I also don’t hate people for their ethnicity, nationality, sexual orientation, or even gender identity. I have better things to do than to hate people for what they are. And them being what they are doesn’t impact me much anyway, so why be a hater?

I’m not going to hate someone for being foolish, suicidal, para-suicidal, self-destructive, dysfunctional, miserable, crazy (unless they are dangerously crazy), or idiotic. They’re only hurting themselves anyway. Why hate folks who only hurt themselves. They’re not hurting me. I only hate people who are hurting me or want to hurt me.

I’m not going to hate anyone for picking the wrong parents. How can I hate someone for picking the wrong parents to give birth to them?

I hate certain people for what they believe, true, but even with those people, I have some acquaintances who believe in these philosophies and I am still friendly to them. These people have chosen of their own free will be believe some really lousy things, things that hurt me and my own and the rest of the country. If their ideas are implemented, I and my own get harmed and the whole country gets messed up. It’s ok to hate people for having shitty ideals and mindsets. They can change their philosophies, ideals and mindsets any time they want. No one is forcing them to believe all this awful stuff.

These people are out to hurt me, and a number of them have hurt me, mostly my feelings, but still. If their ideas get put in, my life is going to suffer in a huge way. So I hate them believing in these projects that are going to hurt me so much. They’re basically actively trying to harm me and I don’t appreciate that and I reserve the right to hate anyone who is trying to harm me.

Zamfir: And, strangely, you seem to express a lot of hate and contempt towards those outside the group you identify with.

LOL, I hate paranoid, thin-skinned hater nutcases? Maybe so, my friend, but so do most people. These are the types of people who tend to get banned from every bar in town.

Class is not an identity. And identity is part of your true self in general and it is not something that is easily changed. Class is not some integral part of oneself the same way your race, nationality, sexual orientation, gender or even religion are. It’s just a philosophy. No one thinks class is identity politics, except for you I guess.

Having a collective interest is not the same thing as a hard and fast identity like race, ethnic group, gender, sexual orientation, nationality, or even religion. Collective interests are just philosophies, goals and interests that people take up in life. It’s stuff they do, not stuff they are. And you can change your interests or philosophy any time you want. It’s not a hard to change part of your core self.

Political movements are not core, difficult to change identities of the self in the same way that race, ethnicity, nationality, gender, sexual orientation of even religion are. They are just political philosophies, collections of ideas that people take up and push because they believe in those ideas and value them. Anyone can change their politics anytime they want. Not even now, I mean yesterday. That fast Political movements are what you do, not what you are. It’s just a personal philosophy of life, a set of ideas, values, goals, etc.

Zamfir: Seems like this is just the nature of democratic politics in a pluralist society: people vote to secure the interests of groups they belong to and care about.

I just told you the difference between ideas and core parts of oneself, often unchangeable. It’s the difference between what you do and believe in and what you are. Most sane politics is about what people do or what philosophies they believe in about how society should be run. That’s not an identity. Philosophies are not identities.

Not one person on Earth thinks that all movements of collective interests or political movements are identity politics. Not one. Except you I guess.

Zamfir: You even say you’d take away the rights of others to benefit your group.

No I wouldn’t. When did I ever say that? I wouldn’t take away rights from anyone of any identity group based on their core self. I would not take away rights from women, gays, transsexuals, Jews, or people of any religion, ethnicity, or nationality. I certainly would not take away their rights to benefit my own group. Are you kidding?

 

 

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Filed under Left, Philosophy, Political Science, Politics, Sociology

Alt Left: Identity Politics People and Groups Are Both Mentally Ill

Zamfir: And why is IP supposed to be bad?

I just gave you a lot of reasons. It’s insane. All the IP’s can’t possibly be true. Only one of the conflicting IP’s can be true and the other must be false, or they must both be wrong. It can’t be true that Blacks are bad and Whites are good and also that Blacks are good and Whites are bad, etc. It’s crazy. Same thing with all of the others.

Basically these are all positions that are various forms of nonsense.

In particular,  they are much too quite to call anyone who says boo about them a hater, to demonize their enemies du jour, and frankly to be paranoid.

Most people who criticize various races, ethnic groups or nationalities are not racists. Most men who criticize women are not misogynists. Most women who criticize men are not misandrists. Most people who criticize Jews are not anti-Semites. Most people who criticize Islam are not Muslim haters. Most people who criticize gays are not homophobes. Most people who criticize transsexuals are not transphobes.

So it’s just a bunch of thin-skinned paranoid haters who can’t take any criticism, all with different glorious identities and demonized enemies. I agree with gays hating homophobes, transsexuals hating transphobes, Jews hating anti-Semites, etc., but all of these people are paranoid crazies who think everyone is an evil enemy out to get them, they all have a huge chip on their shoulders, who can’t take any criticism, who think all critics are deadly enemies, and are frankly very narcissistic with inflated self-esteem.

When these qualities are present in a person, we generally say they are unhealthy or mentally ill. Generally they have a personality disorder. If these mentally ill people have the same qualities as these groups, then we say that these groups themselves are paranoid crazies who think everyone is an evil enemy out to get them, all have a huge chip on their shoulders, can’t take any criticism, think all critics are deadly enemies, and are frankly very narcissistic with inflated self-esteem are either groups of mentally ill people or perhaps the groups themselves are mentally ill.

Actual societal structures can become mentally disordered just as a person can. So all of these groups are more or less mentally ill groups full of mentally ill people. The people in the groups have personality disorders and the groups themselves actually have personality disorders!

IP people are crazy. IP groups, being full of crazy people, are crazy groups.

Period.

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Filed under Cultural Marxists, Left, Mental Illness, Personality Disorders, Politics, Psychology, Psychopathology, Race/Ethnicity, Social Problems, Sociology, Useless Western Left

Alt Left: The Alt Left Position on Identity Politics

This really ought to be the official Alt Left statement on Identity Politics of all types in general.

The Alt Left position on Identity Politics is that in general we are opposed to all IP.

White nationalist/White IP: Non-whites deserve to be hated because physical science proves that they’re evil and inferior. Non-Whites hate us Whites! Therefore, the Non-Whites are evil and we Whites need to separate from them. Our White hatred is good and their Non-White hated is bad! The Non-Whites attack us Whites all the time. The Non-Whites are the attackers, we Whites are the victims. We Whites are innocent and the Non-Whites are guilty. We Whites want paybacks and revenge against our non-White oppressors. BLM and anti-racism is a hate movement against Whites. Non-Whites are anti-White racists.

Black IP/modern anti-racism/BLM, etc.: Whites deserve to be hated because social science proves that they’re evil. Whites hate us Blacks! Our Black hatred is good and their White hatred is bad! Whites attack us Blacks all the time. Whites are the attackers, we Blacks are the victims. We Black are innocent and the Whites are guilty. We Black want paybacks and revenge against our White oppressors. White nationalism is a hate movement against Blacks. Whites are anti-Black racists. Whites want to kill all of us Blacks.

Radical feminism/modern feminism in general/political lesbianism (radfems in particular): Men/MRA’s deserve to be hated because social science proves that they’re evil. Men/MRA’s hate us women! Our female hatred is good and their male/MRA hated is bad. Men’s/MRA’s hatred is bad! Men/MRA’s attack us women all the time. Men/MRA’s are the attackers, we women are the victims. We women are innocent and the men/MRA’s are guilty. We women want paybacks and revenge against our male/MRA oppressors. MRA is a hate movement against women. Men are misogynists.

MRA’s/incels/MGTOW’s: Women deserve to be hated because physical and social science proves that they’re evil/inferior. Feminists hate us! Our male hatred is good and their feminist hatred is bad! Feminists attack us men all the time. Feminists are the attackers, we men are the victims. We men are innocent and the feminists are guilty. We men want paybacks and revenge against our feminist/female oppressors. Feminism is a hate movement against men. Feminists are misandrists.

Gay activists: Homophobes deserve to be hated because social science proves that they’re evil. Homophobes hate us gays! Our gay hatred is good and their homophobic hatred is bad! Homophobes attack us gays all the time. Homophobes are the attackers, we gays are the victims. We gays are innocent and the homophobes are guilty. We gays want paybacks and revenge against our homophobic oppressors. Anti-gays are homophobes. Homophobes want to kill all of us gays.

Homophobes/pro-family/anti-gays: Gays deserve to be hated because social science proves that they’re evil, decadent, and depraved. Gays hate us anti-gays! Our anti-gay hatred is good and their gay hatred is bad! Gays attack us anti-gays all the time. Gays are the attackers, we anti-gays are the victims. We anti-gays are innocent and the Gay are guilty. We anti-gays want paybacks and revenge against our gay oppressors. Gay activism is a hate movement against the family. Gays hate the heterosexual family.

Transsexual activists: Transphobes deserve to be hated because social science proves that they’re evil. Transphobes hate us Transsexuals! Our transsexual hatred is good and their transphobic hatred is bad! Transphobes attack us transsexuals all the time. Transphobes are the attackers, we transsexuals are the victims. We transsexuals are innocent and the transphobes are guilty. We transsexuals want paybacks and revenge against our Transphobic oppressors. Anti-trans people are transphobes.

Transphobes/TERF’s: Transsexuals deserve to be hated because social science proves that they’re evil. Transsexuals hate us TERF’s/Transphobes! Our TERF/transphobic hatred is good and their transsexual hatred is bad! Transsexuals attack us TERF’s/transphobes all the time. Transsexuals are the attackers, we TERF’s/transphobes are the victims. We TERF’s/transphobes are innocent and the transsexuals are guilty. We TERF’s/transphobes want paybacks and revenge against our transsexual oppressors. Transsexualism is a hate movement against women. Transsexuals are misogynists.

Muslims: Infidels deserve to be hated because theology proves that they’re evil. Infidels hate us s! Our hatred is good and their hatred is bad! Infidels attack us all the time. Infidels are the attackers, we are the victims. We infidels are innocent and the are guilty. We want paybacks and revenge against our infidel oppressors. Infidels are anti-Muslim. Infidels want to kill all of us Muslims.

Anti-Muslims: Muslims deserve to be hated because theology proves that they’re evil: Infidels deserve to be hated because theology proves that they’re evil. Infidels hate us s! Our hatred is good and their hatred is bad! Infidels attack us all the time. Infidels are the attackers, we are the victims. We infidels are innocent and the are guilty. We want paybacks and revenge against our infidel oppressors. Infidels are anti-Muslim. Infidels want to kill all of us Muslims..

Jews: Anti-Semites/Gentiles deserve to be hated because social science/theology proves that they’re evil/inferior. Anti-Semites/gentiles hate us Jews! Our Jewish hatred is good and their Anti-Semitic/Gentile hatred is bad! Anti-Semites/Gentiles attack us Jews all the time. Anti-Semites/Gentiles are the attackers, we Jews are the victims. We Jews are innocent and the Anti-Semites/gentiles are guilty. We Jews want paybacks and revenge against our anti-Semitic/gentile oppressors. Gentiles are anti-Semites. Anti-Semites/gentiles want to kill all of us Jews.

Anti-Semites: Jews deserve to be hated because social science proves that they’re evil. Jews hate us gentiles! Our gentile hatred is good and their Jewish hatred is bad! Jews attack us Gentiles all the time. Jews are the attackers, we Gentiles are the victims. We Gentiles are innocent and the Jews are guilty. We Gentiles want paybacks and revenge against our Jewish oppressors. Jews are anti-gentile. Jews want to kill all of us gentiles.

___________ nationalism: Our enemies deserve to be hated because social science proves that they’re evil. The racists hate our people! Our nationalist hatred is good and their racist hatred against our people is bad! The racists attack our people all the time. The racists are the attackers, we nationalists are the victims. We nationalists are innocent and the racists are guilty. We nationalists want paybacks and revenge against our racist oppressors. Our enemies are racists against our people!

White nationalism is not IP! Black activism is not IP! Feminism is not IP! MRA is not IP! Transsexualism is not IP! Islam is not IP! Gay activism is not IP! _________ nationalism is not IP! Being Jewish isn’t IP!

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Why Trump Is a Disaster: Principled Liberals, Progressives and Leftists Never Vote for the Right, Period, for any Reason, Ever

Zamfir: I’m surprised you have a strong preference for Democrats over Republicans. To me it seems like a hopeless choice. If you vote Republican you’re voting for one set of evil elite interests, but not explicitly against your biology and cultural heritage; if you vote Republican you’re voting for another set of evil elite interests, and explicitly against your biology and cultural heritage.

Hard to pick between those two! What is the real advantage in voting Democrat in your opinion? (I guess I’d vote for Bernie, but then again I’d vote for Trump for similar reasons… Not that I expect either one would ever do much on anything I care about.)

I am a man of the Left. I always have been and always will be. I never vote conservative or reactionary ever for any reason. I am practically a Marxist. I would rather eat a bullet than vote for the Right. They are my class enemies. I vote my class interests. I vote populist. I vote for the people, for the workers. The rich can go walk off a cliff. The corporations are the enemy, and they need to drop dead.

The Democrats are incredibly better on most of these things.

I don’t care about my cultural heritage and my biology. Why is muh cultural heritage important? It’s silly and it means nothing. Why is muh biology important? That’s nonsense too.

See, this support for Trump is all flowing from race or maybe racism stuff. I said earlier than everyone who gets on this race train will vote Republican for the rest of their lives.

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Trump is Terrible on: Abortion, Guns, Gays, Transsexuals, Guns, the Left, Workers, Unions, Regulations, Taxes, Democracy, and the Courts

In short, Trump is our worst nightmare.

Zamfir: I’m surprised you have a strong preference for Democrats over Republicans. To me it seems like a hopeless choice. If you vote Republican you’re voting for one set of evil elite interests, but not explicitly against your biology and cultural heritage; if you vote Republican you’re voting for another set of evil elite interests, and explicitly against your biology and cultural heritage.

Hard to pick between those two! What is the real advantage in voting Democrat in your opinion? (I guess I’d vote for Bernie, but then again I’d vote for Trump for similar reasons… Not that I expect either one would ever do much on anything I care about.)

When you look at all the outrageous stuff Trump does on a day to day basis, I mean my God, he’s not for us. Trump’s just for the rich and corporations. Trump’s hurting over everyone else.

On abortion? Outrageous.

He’s anti-gay too, he’s fucking them over.

Trump’s position on guns is outrageous. We now have regular massacres at our schools! We are turning into a banana republic in that sense too.

Trump hates the left; he hates the workers. Trump has rolled back worker protections dramatically. Trump hates unions and wants to destroy them all.

They’ve radically rolled back regulation of business, which is an utter necessity. Talk about economic conservatism. That’s all the Republican Party is all about. The tax bill was an outrage.

Trump is radically anti-democratic. He’s dismantling what’s left of our democracy, which is not much. His Supreme Court pick was horrific and the Republicans literally out and out stole that seat from the Democrats, to whom it was owed.

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SJW’s Are Not the Problem; The Republicans and Trump Are and It Is a National Emergency

Zamfir: I’m surprised you have a strong preference for Democrats over Republicans. To me it seems like a hopeless choice. If you vote Republican you’re voting for one set of evil elite interests, but not explicitly against your biology and cultural heritage; if you vote Republican you’re voting for another set of evil elite interests, and explicitly against your biology and cultural heritage.

Hard to pick between those two! What is the real advantage in voting Democrat in your opinion? (I guess I’d vote for Bernie, but then again I’d vote for Trump for similar reasons… Not that I expect either one would ever do much on anything I care about.)

The Democrats don’t necessarily represent elites, though most have been corporate Democrats for a long time now. But there is an insurgency in the Democratic Party

I don’t care about feminism or BLM or tranny fools or gay degenerates or any of the rest of the SJW idiocy. Why are faggots important? Why are tranny freaks important? Why are feminazis important? How do BLM morons impact my life? I don’t care if they hate Whites and men.

SJW’s are like gnats or mosquitoes. At worst, their like mosquitoes in Alaska but even that won’t kill you. And there’s always bug spray.

But Trump and the Republicans are like a grizzly bear in the living room. I mean they are an out and out mortal menace to us all.

Sure I don’t like SJW’s, but it’s not enough to make me vote reactionary!

Brandon Adamson said a similar thing. He’s a identitarian liberal just like the poster, and he’s voting Republican too. Brandon’s going to vote Republican for the rest of his life. And he’s a liberal. It’s all because of race. Race trumps the 999 liberal issues that Brandon supports. It’s race uber alles. Brandon was on the radio and they were talking about me and how I said I always vote Democrat, and I never vote Republican ever. He said, “I don’t understand how he could be so attached to a political party like that.”

Well, in the US, if you are on the Left at all, and I am on the Left, you just vote Democrat. Or Left third party, but that’s throwing your vote away. You never vote Republican or right-wing anything like Brandon did in the last election.

When you look at all the outrageous stuff Trump does on a day to day basis, I mean my God, he’s not for us. Trump’s just for the rich and corporations. Trump’s hurting over everyone else.

On abortion? Outrageous.

He’s anti-gay too, he’s fucking them over.

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The (((Cartoon Version of the Lebanese Civil War))) Most Americans Have Heard Is Wrong

Sisera: And naturally Hezbollah was arch rivals of Israel, who was defending the Christians.

But now the tides have turned because Israel’s pet Jihadis genocide Christians.

Israel didn’t invade to rescue any Christians and they were not defending any Christians. They didn’t participate in the Civil War much. They invaded to conquer the PLO in Lebanon.

This is a cartoon (((evil Muslim Islamist Christian haters trying to genocide good Christians minding their own business version of the Civil War))). This version that most Americans believe was concocted in Israel. So the knowledge most Americans have about that war is just Israeli propaganda.

The war was pretty much rightwing or fascist Maronite Christian groups versus Leftist and Arab nationalist secular Palestinians. That was the war in a nutshell. Later others allied with one side or the other. Most of the groups who allied with the Palestinians were secular. Religious Muslims were mostly not involved in the war.

There was no Hezbollah until 1985. They were caused by the Israeli invasion. And you have it backwards. When Israel invaded, the Shia in the South (Hezbollah’s territory) welcomed them with flowers. They turned on them when the Israelis started being shits like they always do.There was no Hezbollah until 1985. They were caused by the Israeli invasion. And you have it backwards. When Israel invaded, the Shia in the South (Hezbollah’s territory) welcomed them with flowers. They turned on them when the Israelis started being shits like they always do.

The Christians didn’t need any rescuing. They started the Civil War in the first place. They stopped buses full of Palestinians and ordered everyone out and shot everyone in the head.  They did this a few times and the PLO took up arms. But left-wingers were on the side of the PLO too, and the Greek Orthodox were always fighting with the Muslims, etc. against the Maronites. And the leftwing movement of the Druze, a non-Christian, non-Muslim religion, fought alongside the Muslims. Socialists, Communists and Arab nationalists all fought with the Muslims.

The Maronites were sick and tired of the Palestinians living in their country. That’s why they started the war.

The Christians have always run Lebanon. They’re no poor victims. More like minority rule thugs.

The war started with Leftists, Syrian nationalists and Arab nationalists against the Phalange fascist Christian militia modeled after the Nazi party (your heroes). None of the former were very religious. Those were secular groups. Sunni Muslims and Armenian Christians sat out the war. The people who took up arms against the Maronites were secular Arab nationalist types. The Shia sat out the war for a very long time. They did not want to get involved. But they had sympathies with the Palestinians.

The Palestinians set up refugee cams all over Southern Lebanon to attack Israel. During this time, the Shia hated them. The Palestinians ruled like thugs and the religious Shia saw them as a bunch of Commies. They were so sick of Palestinian rule that they welcomed conquering Israelis with flowers as I mentioned.

The main Shia movement, the Amal, fought against the Palestinians alongside the Maronites at the start of the war. The Shia only turned against Israel due to Israeli abuses. They formed Hezbollah, but they spent most of their time fighting Israel. An Armenian Communist organization fought the Maronites for most of the war. These were Christians.

The war actually started when the Maronite President of Lebanon tried to force a fishing monopoly for his group along the coast. Fishermen in Sidon objected and there were popular demonstrations. Palestinians joined these demos. A sniper killed the former mayor of Sidon. To this day no one knows who killed him or why. The sniper fired at the  end of a demonstration and appeared to try to start a conflagration. The situation soon spiraled out of control and the Maronite government lost control of the situation.

The actual beginning of the war was fighting versus Maronite and Palestinian militias. The Maronite government was not involved.
You are going by the (((officially narrative))) of the war of evil Muslim Islamist Christian haters trying to genocide the good Christians of Lebanon. Except most of the “Muslims” were not even religious and the Christian militias were objectively fascist and in particular opposed to democratic rule via a census which would have made them a minority.

The war was secular Palestinians versus fascist Maronite Christians. Most religious Muslims sat out the war. There was no “evil Muslims trying to exterminate good Christians out of religious hatred” bullshit. Hezbollah never took part in the civil war itself. All they did was fight against Israel and its puppet Maronite army in the south. However, most of the soldiers in this “Maronite” army were Shia Muslims! So the war in the South was Shia Muslims in the SLA versus Shia Muslims in Hezbollah. Also there were many Palestinian Christians in the PLO fighting against the Maronites.

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Socialism, Populism, and Neoliberalism in the Arab World

Sisera: The CIA’s coups have been out of control for decades, agreed.

But you support minority rule governments in the Middle East (Saddam Hussein, certainly and possibly Assad who is at least an ethnic minority. Hezbollah operated for years in a largely Christian country, etc.) because the alternative would mean Americans die in terror attacks from those countries becoming terror bases.

I don’t know that you could argue any Latin American oligarchy was more brutal than Saddam Hussein.

So you just value certain American interests that are different than his.

Saddam was brutal but he was a populist. He just didn’t tolerate any minority rebellions or opposition really. But in return for that he was a great socialist and populist leader who did great things for his people. Saddam’s rule was not oligarchic rule by a ruling class. Actually when the Ba’ath took power, they took out the local oligarchs, confiscated their land, imposed heavy taxation, nationalized many industries, etc.

Saddam was a man of the people. He was for the little guy, the average Joe Iraqi Workingman. You could also argue that Stalin and Mao were brutal in similar ways. Leftwing regimes can be pretty brutal. I am not one to dismiss that. But leftist and Communist regimes are not cases of ruling class rule or the rule by a small group of rich and capitalists over everyone else.

The whole time Hezbollah was around, Lebanon was a minority Christian country. It hasn’t been majority Christian since the 1960’s or maybe 1970’s. Anyway the Christians are not in opposition to Hezbollah. One of the Maronite leaders, Aoun, is in an alliance with Hezbollah. Hezbollah has Christian and Sunni militias in Christian and Sunni areas. The Greek Orthodox have always supported Hezbollah. It’s a populist movement. Hezbollah only came into existence because of the Israeli invasion.

You may be correct about Syria. Democracy may well vote in radical Islamists, and that would not be a pretty picture. The Syrian rebels give you a taste of what life would be like without Assad.  We already know what life in Iraq was like post-Saddam. A sheer Hell of a charnelhouse. Surely Saddam was better than what came after.

Assad is a populist. He works for everyone. It’s not a matter of the rich running the place and fucking everyone over. They just had elections for Parliament and 85% of the seats were run by Sunnis. The Sunnis run the business community. The army is full of Sunni generals. The minority rule thing is sort of dumb. Assad cuts everyone in because he has to. Anyway, if you go the democratic route in the Middle East, you end up with Islamists.

I actually do not mind popular or populist dictatorships that serve the people. That’s fine. Assad appears to have majority support too. It’s not like the majority want Assad gone and he just usurped them.

Saddam was difficult, but there were 1 million Shia Ba’ath Party members. Shia were persecuted not for being Shia but for being Islamists. Anyway, Saddam was the best choice. Look what happened when he was gone.

For whatever reason, the rich and the capitalists in the Arab World are not evil like in Latin America, the Philippines, Indonesia, etc. Everyone wants socialism in the Arab world. But Arab socialism allows businessmen to earn money, so everyone gets cut in. You don’t have hard-line socialism or Communism because you don’t have diabolical ruling classes like you have in Latin America. If the rich and the capitalists are willing to go along with a socialist or populist project, why can’t they have full rights?

Hezbollah does not control Lebanon. Anyway, Lebanon is minority rule and has been forever. Christians are guaranteed 50% of seats in Parliament but are only 30% of the population. Hezbollah is not a ruling class group. They are basically socialists like most Islamists.

You see, radical neoliberalism, Latin American style economic conservatism, Republican Party politics, etc. is a no seller in the Arab World. Literally nobody but nobody but nobody wants it. The only people proposing it are Lebanese Maronites because they are close to Europe and they are trying to distinguish themselves from Arabs by being individualists and different.

You can’t sell any sort of oligarchic rule, ruling class rule, economic conservatism of any of that in most Muslim countries. Because Mohammad, if you read him closely, was a pretty socialist fellow. Now the ruling classes in the Arab world used to be feudalists who worked the fellahin like serfs.

But the Arab nationalist revolutions that rocked the Arab world got rid of all of that. All rulers wiped out the feudal holdings and liberated the peasants. The large landowners tried to justify their rule by saying that Mohammad said there are rich and there are poor and that is fine. They got corrupt Muslims clergy to go along with this, similar to how the ruling classes get the Catholic Church to go along with the project of the rich.

This alliance was most notable in Iraq, but it existed in other places like Palestine. Egypt was largely feudal before Nasser. Nasser was not only an Arab nationalist but also a working class hero. Leftists all over the Arab World used to have pictures of Nasser on the walls. He too liberated the Muslim peasants. Feudal rule ended in Palestine in the 1930’s in the midst of an Arab nationalist revolution there.

Getting rid of oligarchic and feudal rule was easy in the Arab World because the masses never supported the oligarchs or feudalists. Rather, they hated them. So Arab socialism was an easy fit all over the region. Even the business communities gladly went along.

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The Rich Only Support Democracy when the Elected State Serves their Class Interests, Otherwise They Try to Overthrow It

Zamfir: Thanks Robert. I appreciate the site, and it’s nice to feel welcome.

Obviously one problem in discussing this is that terms like ‘left’ and ‘right’ or ‘liberal’ and ‘conservative’ have been given all kinds of different meanings. If economic conservatism is identified with free market ideology then I’m pretty ambivalent about that, at best. And if it’s identified with support for whatever this internationalist economic system is that we have now, I’m against it.

I find it very weird that people who are conservative about social and cultural issues often support “economic conservatism” of that kind. It’s so clear that these things are incompatible! Anyway I certainly have no problem with socialism per se. I would only disagree with certain versions, or cases where I believe socialism ends up being destructive of healthy families and cultures (in much the same way that capitalism can be).

As for democracy I’m not sure what I think about it. I think I’m a reactionary to the extent that I don’t believe that democracy, or any other specific system or procedure, is always good or always essential to a good society. My sense is that some democracies or kinds of democracy are fine, while others are really bad. It all depends on some many factors aside from the system or procedure itself.

I do want a society where the interests of most people, including the poor, are taken into account fairly. But I don’t see any reason why that could never happen in a non-democratic state. Or, more precisely, for anything that’s good about some democracies, I don’t see why certain non-democratic regimes couldn’t also have those good things; it would all depend on other factors such as the culture and history of the people, their typical behavior and beliefs, etc.

So I guess I’d support coups against democratic regimes in some cases–though things would have to be pretty bad–and also against non-democratic regimes in some cases. I don’t think coups are always bad. (In fact, that’s one thing that seems silly about a lot of rigid ‘conservative’ ideology–the wish to preserve order and the status quo no matter how terrible it’s become…)

You say the rich don’t support democracy. I wonder if that’s true. Maybe they don’t support the ideal of democracy, for the reasons you mentioned. But, again, bearing in mind the looseness of terminology here, they sure do seem to support systems that we normally call “democratic”. Is the US a democracy in your view?

Are England or Ireland or Canada democracies? If so, then I don’t agree that the rich never want democracy. My sense is that they long ago figured out how to manipulate these kinds of systems to get the results they want. They manage the perceptions and values of the masses so that they always end up “freely choosing” the same garbage that the elites wanted all along.

A good question is whether this is an inevitable feature of democracy. (I don’t know the answer.) It could be that in any feasible form of democracy, no matter how close it gets to the ideal, you end up with powerful interests rigging the process to maximize their own wealth and power. And I don’t like that, because I want the interests of ordinary people to be taken into account. Ironically, then, I’m skeptical about many forms of democracy because I think the masses deserve to have a say.

So I’d be against democracy in cases where ‘democratic’ systems are hijacked by elites and used against the people. That’s what’s happening in most of the western world, I’d say. Not to say I’d support a coup in this situation–and certainly not if the point of the coup was to install an even more extreme form of exploitation. But I’m not entirely sure what to say about democracy. I think the reactionary critique has merit. (But then, don’t communists also criticize democracy for roughly similar reasons?)

The Communist view is that seeking power peacefully would be a great idea except the ruling classes will never allow it to happen. They say that power never gives up without a fight, and I believe that they are correct. Nevertheless, most Communists support Venezuela, Nicaragua and only leftwing democratic countries. But the Communists would say, “Look what happens why you try to take power peacefully. You get Nicaragua, Venezuela, Brazil, Ecuador, Paraguay, Honduras, Haiti, and even Argentina.”

The ruling class will just overthrow the democratic Left state any way they can, always using anti-democratic means to do so. That’s why Lenin called people who supported the peaceful road to socialism “parliamentary cretins.” He thought it was a great idea but it would never work because the rich would never allow the Left to take power peacefully.

The Communist view is also that you never have democracy under capitalism anyway, as the capitalists and the rich always ending ruling the state one way or another through all sorts of means. And yes, the rich and the capitalists always take over all the media in any capitalist country as you said, they use it to shape the view of the people to support the class politics of the rich. Such support being called false consciousness.

Gramsci said that the ruling class took over the entire culture in capitalist countries and brainwashed the masses into supporting the project of the rich. They did this via cultural hegemony. Marx said that the culture of the rich is always the popular culture in any capitalist country. So the ruling class turns all of us into “little rich people” or “little capitalists” to support their project. They brainwash us into thinking we are the same class as the rich and that we are all capitalists ourselves, so we should support Capital. These are lies, but most Americans are easily fooled.

Ralph Nader called this “going corporate” or “thinking corporate.” He says that in the US, most people adopt the mindset of the corporations and think of themselves are part of the corporate structure whether they are or not. If everyone is part of the corporate structure, then what’s good for corporations is good for all of us, which is the project of the Republican Party, neoliberalism everywhere, the Latin American rich, etc. It’s a big fat lie, but people want to be rich and a lot of workers want to think of themselves are busy little capitalist money-making, go-getter, can-do, Bossterist entrepreneurs because it seems to cool to own your own business.

And the Communists would call this false consciousness and their argument would be that under capitalism, most people adopt false consciousness.

I think in the US, the rich see the tide coming and the rule of the rich is going to end so they want to lock in as much of the state as possible by stacking the courts, gutting the safety net, massive tax cuts that will be impossible to get rid of, and that Constitutional Convention they are two states away from getting where they want to rewrite the whole US Constitution to lock in rule by the rich for as long as possible. The rich see the writing on the wall. That’s why they came up with the computerized elections scam, so they could steal elections as long as people kept voting against the rich.

The gerrymandering of districts now makes it almost impossible to get rid of Republican majorities on state representatives in the House and in Senators and Assemblymen in the states. It’s all locked in.

So as the rich saw the tide turning and demographics moving against them, they instituted a full court press to do all sorts of extremely anti-democratic stuff to stay in power. If the people would just vote for them anyway, they would not have to do that, but apparently most Americans have now turned away from the politics of the rich, so the rich will have to lie, cheat, and steal to stay in power from now on.

Also they elected Donald Trump, by far the most corrupt, authoritarian and even outright fascist leader this country has ever had. And this follows too. Whenever there is a popular movement against the rich and the capitalists, the rich and the capitalists always, always, always resort of fascism to stay in power. This has been proven endlessly over time, even in Europe. Trotsky had some great things to say about this. Check out “Thermidor.” Trotsky truly understood what fascism was all about. It is a desperate last ditch move by the ruling class to seize power in the face of an uprising from the Left.

The rich and the capitalists are determined to stay in power, by hook or by crook, by any means necessary, and they will lie, cheat, steal and kill as many people as they have to just to keep the Left out of power. They simply will not allow the Left to rule. They must rule and if they are out of  power, they will use any antidemocratic means to get power back.

Which is the story of the CIA, the Pentagon and 100% of US foreign policy since 1945 and even before then. Read Samuel Butler.

I mean, we on the Left generally allow the Right to take power if they do so democratically. Sure they destroy everything like they always do, but most of us are committed to the democratic means of seeking power. Even most Communist parties will not take up arms against any rightwing government, saying they prefer to seek power by peaceful means. Typically, the CP will issue a statement that the nation is not in a revolutionary situation right now. There are objective conditions under which a nation is said to be in a revolutionary situation. I’m sure you can recall a few. It is then and only then that most CP’s will go underground and issue a call to take up arms.

Frankly, almost all Left insurgencies postwar were defensive. The Left allowed the Right to take power and then the Right started running around killing people. Usually the Left sat there for a while and let themselves get killed before taking up power. I know the Viet Cong just sat there from 1954-1960 while the rightwing Vietnamese government ran amok in the countryside, murdering 80,000 Communists in six years. They kept asking the North Vietnamese for permission to take up arms, but the North kept denying it.

The Colombian, Salvadoran and Guatemalan guerrillas only took up guns after the state had been running about murdering them unarmed for years. The Salvadoran guerrillas said they got tired of sitting in their homes waiting for the rightwing state to come kill them, and they decided that if the state was going to come kill them anyway, they might as well pick up a gun and defend themselves. They also took up arms because the Right kept stealing elections by fraud.

The Right had cut off all methods of seeking power peacefully, so the Left picked up guns. The message is if you elect a leftwing government, sooner or later the Right will overthrow it and then there will be a reign of terror where many Leftists will be murdered. Knowing that, if you were a Leftist in some country, would you not be afraid to put the Left in power knowing you stood a good chance of being murdered once the inevitable rightwing coup took place?

The Colombian and Honduran governments only stay in power by killing people. Lots of people. The Greek Communists only took up arms after the government had been killing them for some time.

Also once a Left government is overthrown by the rich and the capitalists, the new Rightist government institutes a reign of terror where they slaughter the defeated Left for many years. This went on for decades after 1954 in Guatemala, and it goes on still today. After Aristide was overthrown, the rightwing government murdered 3,000 of his supporters.

After Allende was overthrown, Pinochet murdered 15,000 people over a decade and a half. A threat from the Left prompted the Indonesian government to fake a Left coup and murder 1 million Communists in a couple of months. Even before the Korean War broke out, from 1948-1950, the South Korean government killed hundreds of thousands of Communists in the South.

As they withdrew when the North attacked, the South Koreans killed South Korean Communists everywhere they went. After the fascist coup in Argentina, the government decimated the Left, murdering 30,000 mostly unarmed supporters of the Left. The same thing happened in Bolivia with the Banzer Plan when Hugo Banzer took power after the tin miners briefly sought power. The new rightwing government in Brazil is already starting to murder members of the former Left ruling party. They’re not going to stop.

After the fascist coup in Ukraine, the Communist Party was outlawed and many of its members were murdered. War was declared on labor unions. Workers in one union were chained to a heater inside the building and the building was set on fire.

The party supported by half the population (the Russian speakers and their supporters) the Party of Regions, was outlawed, a number of its deputies were murdered and there were attempts to murder the leader of the party, lastly by setting his house on fire which set his neighbor’s house on fire instead. He fled to Russia. Now half the population and all of the Russian speakers had not party to represent them, which is why they took up arms. They were locked out of power.

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Mao Was Right

Sisera: So what does that mean then? You believe rich people are inherently oppressors who don’t deserve rights but then White men are okay?

I dunno. There are some North Koreans worth up to $100,000. The party doesn’t seem to care much. There are many rich Chavistas and the Ortegas have plenty of money. There are some Cubans who are living quite well now – marble counter-tops and floors, etc. The state doesn’t care.

I suppose a good CP would just argue that moneyed people can be kept around as long as they support the party and the basic socialist nature of the system. Progressive rich people are not unknown. The father of the famous terrorist Carlos was a life member of the Venezuelan Communist Party and a millionaire.

Do the Chinese Communists (Chicoms) believe that the rich are inherently oppressive? I doubt it as the party is full of millionaires. There is even a billionaire in the party now pushing the rightwing politics of all billionaires everywhere. I think they ought to throw him out of the party.

Mao said reactionary and capitalist elements would be springing up in the party all the time, and you to wage more or less constant cultural revolution to keep the rightwingers from taking over the party. That’s one of the pillars of Maoism that distinguishes it from other Marxisms.

Then Deng came along, aaand…

Mao was right.

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