Category Archives: Girls

PUA/Game: The Easiest Female to Get Is Always One That Is Your Age

KCH: It seems to me that getting a woman his own age would be less work, not more work. Just saying. Perhaps these women misunderstand the intentions of said male.

It’s always easiest to get a woman your own age, always. If you cannot get a woman your own age, God help you. You may be able to get an older woman, maybe. Even there though older women want hot young men for their boy toys. When I was a young man, I noticed that the young men who were dating women say 7-18 years older than they were, were generally the…Alphas, shall we say. A lot of them were very good-looking, and they were cleaning up with females their own age and even younger down to JB’s for the guys in the 18-20 range.

Once women get outside their age range, they start getting pickier. Getting a legal teenage girl would be almost impossible for me now. Getting a woman in her 20’s would be very difficult. Even getting a woman in her 30’s would not be easy at all. All of those are serious uphill climbs. I am on dating sites, and they only women who respond to me are in my age range. Most are in their 50’s, a few are in their 60’s, and not too many of them are in their 40’s. Women in their 40’s pretty much never respond. Women in their 30’s are practically hopeless, and I am not sure if I even bother with women in their 20’s because the odds are so nuts.

Sure, there are men who are behavioral Betas or Omegas who are not very attractive to women. I would say that any guy in that behavioral/looks range is going to do best with women his own age, no matter what his age is. If he’s 18, try for girls that age. If he’s 30, go for women around that age. If he’s 40, go for women around that age. If he’s 50, same, and on and on. The least picky women will be the ones right around your own age. A lot of women are not exactly runway models or prizes themselves, and after a while, most women figure out that Alphas are crappy boyfriends and husbands, and their Prince Charming on a horse is never going to show up, so they cut their losses and go for some guy who is right around their own speed and attractiveness level.

As women get younger and younger than you, they get harder and harder to get because you are simply not that attractive to them. Yes, young women and even girls will go for older men, but they seem to aim for high status when they do, possibly because as the man gets older, he is less attractive. So he needs status, power, money, fame, etc. to make up for his losses in the looks department. As the age difference between a younger woman and an older man gets greater and greater, you will need higher and higher status to make up for progressively decreasing looks.

With older women and younger men, I am not so sure, but most older women are not into boy toys all that much in the first place, and if they are, they probably try to select the best looking of the younger men.

Bottom line is all females more or less want Alphas. Even girls want Alphas. They’re all competing for the 20% Alphas. Yes, women of course go for non-Alphas, but that’s more of a second choice thing. Women are status-fuckers. They’re powerfuckers. And my observation of teenage girls is that they really are no different from women in that way.

Female sexuality seems to be largely biological and unconscious, and much of the psychosexual program probably loads with the onset of the sex drive, with some changes of course with aging.

One thing I have noticed is that teenage girls like pretty boys. They like boys who look like girls. Very pretty, handsome, almost feminine-looking boys do great with high school girls. As women age into their 20’s and up to 30, they are less interested in pretty boys and more into masculine man’s man types, possibly because these are better as husbands and fathers. At the same time, women seem to develop an attitude that pretty boys are either playboys who are not serious, or they are effete men, no matter how handsome they are, or worst of all, that they might be or are gay. There is a real suspicion of “pretty boy” men that comes with women as they age. They just don’t go crazy over Justin Beiber types the way high school girls do.

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Filed under Gender Studies, Girls, Heterosexuality, Jailbait, Man World, Psychology, Romantic Relationships, Sex, Women

Game/PUA: In Praise of Older Women

As you get older and older, teenage girls, even the legal ones, seem more and more silly and immature. It’s hard for me to handle even young women in their 20’s nowadays. Hell, I have problems with young women in their 30’s!

Older women are better than women 18-36 in so many ways.

They don’t so freaked out about sex talk for one thing. Easiest way to blow an early thing with a young woman is to start talking about sex too explicitly. You just signed your death warrant.

If I am talking to a new young woman, I have to be very careful talking her, even if I am dating her because they flip out so easily and get crazy offended so quickly over sex talk.

Yes, of course you can engage in flirtatious conversation, but it has to be very carefully calibrated such that it is almost like a championship chess match. You toss out comments, look at her responses, analyze them carefully, and then maybe later, toss out another little comment. It’s sort of like fishing. Tossing out comments like bait for fish. You adjust your comments based on her responses, which you have to analyze very carefully. It’s very touchy-feely, and you have to proceed slowly and very cautiously and even then, you will blow it up a lot.

And young women are inhibited. Women aged 18-29 are just inhibited, period. That’s why they flip out about sex talk. They are pretty puritanical too. Even if they do not dump you over sex talk, they act very uncomfortable, and you get these long silences or they roll their eyes and toss their hair like you just said something wrong or offensive. Or you get this long silence and then a minute later they come back and answer. Or they use all these euphemisms for sexual words. They use terms like lady parts, V for vagina, duck for fuck, or online they refuse to spell out fuck and put in symbols instead. You can’t say the word pussy, they get upset. I tell older women about this, and they laugh at these young women and call them silly and inhibited.

Older women are far better as far as this goes, and it’s a lot harder to offend them with sex talk. You still can of course, but you can relax a lot more about it. Older women simply act like they are a lot hungrier for sex, so they are less likely to flip out if you say something dirty.  Furthermore, most of them act like they’ve already heard it all and in a lot of cases done it all, and nothing really shocks them anymore. Personally, I think they are simply a lot more relaxed about sex. They act like they don’t care anymore, and I think older men feel this way too. They’ve stopped worrying and giving a damn about sex, and they just don’t give a flying fuck. That of course is the whole key to sex right there.

Older women are also much easier to get into bed. Young women are a great big pain. Quite a few 18 year old girls are still virgins. Older women have often stopped worrying about morals and being considered sluts which is a big fear of young women. They are not getting any younger, and a lot have this attitude that they want to have as much sex as possible before they are dead, which is coming sooner rather than later. On the other hand, young women act like they have all the time in the world.

By their 40’s, most women have decided that they like sex quite a bit. I think they have had so much of it that they finally decided that they like it. You are much more likely to find a young woman in her 20’s and 30’s claim she has lost her sex drive or is no longer dating or having sex. It’s uncommon for older women to say that, although you do start hearing it after menopause. But there it is a case of a whore turned nun, and that has some limitations due to their fond memories. Even postmenopausal women seem to be way more into sex than most people think.

With older women, they will very often send you dirty pictures or nudes even before the first date. With young women, this is a lot more difficult. If you ask a young woman if she wants to see your nudes, a lot of times you will get a no. But older women usually want to see them. I’m amazed at how often they say yes to that request.

First date sex is not out of the ordinary at all, and it’s not unusual for a woman to come over to your place for a first date with an overnight bag already packed. Getting a young woman to spend the night is likely to be a big deal and on a first date, that sounds quite difficult.

I get a lot of crap from haters about supposedly being obsessed with teenage girls, but really I could care less about them. I just think that a lot of what is said about them is straight up crap and lies, and that’s what I am out to destroy.  It’s insane that we are not supposed to be attracted to them or it’s a pathology or paraphilia if we are. That’s why I like to talk about it – because I think society is nuts on the issue. They’re nice to look at, but as I get older and older, they seem like way too young of a girl, and it’s a massive turnoff. Anyway, around here they are deadly illegal even if they are a week or two shy of 18. I mean I am not even into young women that much. Why would I be into teenyboppers? Get real.

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A Feminist Lie: “He Can’t Get a Woman His Own Age, so He Goes for Teenage Girls”

Jason Voorhees: BEAUREGARD

My real-life experience has been that the males that seek out teenage girls are losers.

We’ve all known that 20 year old that had a 16 year old girlfriend.

He is without exception always the same: an underachiever, hanging around teenagers long after people his own age have gone to university or left home, he is undesirable in his own age range etc. etc.

First of all, who the Hell seeks out teenage girls? Most males between ages of 18-21 don’t much differentiate between teenage girls age 14-17 and grown women age 18+. Most guys that age just think they are all the same. I knew many, many people when  I was that age, and I never met one  young man who deliberately sought out teenage girls. All I saw were teenage girls chasing the man that age. I never saw any of the other way around. I think this whole thing about the young man who preys on teenage girls because he can’t get a woman is a great big fat lie. Some of  you claim to have met such people, but I have never met one in my life.

This has NOT been my experience. Between the ages of 18-20, all of us, and I mean all of us were hanging around with people our own age and some underage people.

On the contrary, the only guys I knew aged 18-21 who dated teenage girls were pretty much the studs, the Alphas. These guys were womanizers, playboys, players. Most were quite promiscuous. They were often very good-looking, and they had incredible Game. They walked into a room, and every sexually mature female in the room would look up and look right in his eyes. Those were the guys that all the women that age wanted and the teenage girls were no different. If anything, they were even more picky because they were very status-oriented.

The JB’s saw these men cleaning up with women, and that’s what attracted them in the first place. Women want the men all the other women want. Girls are no different. Teenage girls are just little women. Sexually, they think almost exactly like a grown woman, not much different at all. What a woman wants, a girl wants. They’re all females and they all want the same thing.

The jailbaits made a beeline straight for the Alphas. It seemed like that was all they were interested. And all of the Alphas in that age bracket were screwing Jailbaits without exception.

Even from age 21-23, I was still hanging around teenagers somewhat because I had younger brothers. But I had given up on those girls.

JB’s are just like any women. They only want the best. They are not that picky about boys their age, but when it comes to adult males, they get a lot more selective. And the older the man is, the more selective they are. As men get older, JB’s don’t just want the best, they want the best of the best. Look at how many JB’s hooked up with famous writers, rock stars, billionaires, movie stars, movie directors. Those are the sort of older men JB’s go after. They aim straight for the top.

I never run into this “loser who can’t get women his own age so he goes for teenage girls.” It strikes me as a bunch of crap. Anyway, no one is as selective as JB’s. Even if it were legal, getting a 16-17 yr old girl would be nearly impossible for me. I’m just too old for them and the only guy my age they would go for would be way out of my league. The only man my age who could get a girl that young would have to be a huge Alpha. Because that’s all those JB’s want. It’s Alphas or nothing.

When it comes to me, teenage girls want the best.

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Filed under Feminism, Gender Studies, Girls, Jailbait, Man World, Psychology, Romantic Relationships

Robert Stark Interviews Author Ray Harris

First Stark broadcast I have run in some time now.

This man Ray Harris is a true intellectual. Stark suggests that he also may be considered Alt Left, and I would agree with that.

A lot of interesting discussions going on here with a lot of it centering on nudity, social nudity, and our very nutty hangups about nudity. The Anglophone world is extremely uptight and Puritanical about social nudity in contrast to most of Europe. Germany and Spain in particular are quite wide open about this subject. There is also a lot about nude minors being portrayed in art. In recent years, the controversy has been mostly about naked teenage girls in movies.

Most of these movies were produced in Europe. Louis Malle’s Pretty Baby features a nude 12-year-old Brooke Shields. This clip is out there on the Internet for all to see because nudity is not necessarily child pornography. You can have all the pictures of naked kids all you want I guess.

Nudism sites certainly do, and they are all over the Net. They show humans including minors of all ages, wandering about in the nude on beaches, forests, etc. It’s honestly not very erotic, and the younger teenage girls are not as hot as you would think. They mostly appeared underdeveloped to me, and I wasn’t very into them. Of course the naked kids are not arousing at all, and I fail to understand why we flip out about this stuff. I mean, I can’t think of anything less interesting than a naked kid of either gender. So why do we have a heart attack every time we see one!? I mean it’s a naked human being. Is that evil or something? Color me mystified. What the Hell’s the matter with you hysterical  Puritans anyway?

Of course I have seen the Pretty Baby clip, and I must say, I can’t see why anyone would be turned on by 12 year old Brooke naked in her shower. I watched it and I thought, “Lame,” and “Why would anyone get turned on by that?” Nevertheless, the hysteria rages on out of control, burning minds to a crisp all over the land.

There’s a long history of painting naked minors, especially females, and in centuries past, it was quite common to paint young naked children. I believe Harris says it’s not done much anymore because artists are too paranoid.

The work of photographers Jock Sturges, David Hamilton, and Bill Henson is gone over. These are modern photographers whose work focuses on naked teenage girls.

Henson likes them real young, like age 13. I’ve seen some of that, and it’s not a turn-on at all. In fact, it’s a huge turnoff. You want to look away because you are thinking a girl that young is too young to be sexualized. It’s not erotic to me in the slightest. Instead it is shocking and weird. They have no bodies at all, no tits to speak of, their bodies look like boys’ bodies (I call females like that “sticks”), and at this point of my life, they really look like little girls. They’re not little girls anymore, but they look like they are.

I think we need laws to keep men and 13 year old girls from having sex. These girls need to be protected from us men, and we men need to be protected from ourselves. It would not be right for this to be legal. That’s practically a little girl.

Hamilton and I think Sturges focus on teenage girls, so that’s a lot more promising. Hamilton’s shots are in outdoor locations, often in groups. The photography is spectacular, and the girls are very beautiful.

On the other hand, at least Hamilton focuses like Henson on young teenage girls. I think most of those girls are 13-15, but correct me if I am wrong. I would have to loved to have looked at them earlier in adulthood because girls that age turned me on a lot more when I was younger like 18-30, but at my age, they just seem too young. It’s too much of a young girl. They’re not even much of a turn-on. Physically they are somewhat of course, but then they seem like too much of a young girl, and they are so underdeveloped and girlish, and that part of it is a turnoff and wipes out the physical part.

I know they are not little girls, but even 16 year old girls are starting to seem like little girls to me now. They are perfectly developed, but it just seems like way too much of a girl, and they seem very immature. I see them, and I think they are in junior high. I figure they are in 7th or 8th grade. I ask them if they are in junior high, and they get offended. Anyway, yes, I have seen Hamilton’s stuff and it is all over the Net if you want to go looking for it, and I assure you that it is all 100% legal. After all, nudity is not child porn. I’ve already seen it, and I have no desire to go looking for it again.

I forget Sturgis’ focus, but I think it was young teenage girls also.

I also worry about these men. What’s with the obsession with 13-15 year old teenage girls? I don’t get it. Sometimes I wonder if these guys’ sexual interests are completely OK. It’s not normal to be obsessed with young teenage girls. You are getting into hebephile territory, and hebephiles are not normal.

This subject has aroused some of the worst lies and libels about me of all. I have tried to address these lies, but I just dig the hole deeper. This is all based on some retarded thinking that people of normal intelligence always engage in. It’s called, “If you write about it, then you do it,” or “If you write about it, then you are one.” There’s also, “If you talk about it, then you do it,” and “If you talk about it, then you are one.” All of these are logical fallacies. Take this arguments to your Logic professor and see what he says.

These are examples of very stupid ways of thinking and almost 100% of the population with average intelligence thinks like this all the time. Now you see why people like me think people of average intelligence are retarded.

The Robert Lindsay Brush Fire about this matter was set off long ago. The fire is 0% controlled and is expected to rage into the foreseeable future. As long as that’s the case, I figure I will pour gasoline on the flames and sit back and watch the devastation. It’s rather entertaining to be a social arsonist. If you can’t beat em, join em.

Robert Stark Interviews Author Ray Harris

Paradise-Reclaimed

Cover of Ray Harris’ newest science fiction novel.

Robert Stark and co-host Pilleater interview writer Ray Harris. He is based out of Australia and is the author of Paradise Reclaimed which is available on e-book.

Link here.

Topics:

Ray’s science fiction novel Paradise Reclaimed about the story of the first interstellar colony.
Warnings about dystopia on Earth and creating a utopia from scratch.
Transhumanism, the idea of both genetic and social engineering, CRISPR Gene Editing, and the influence of Julian and Aldous Huxley.
Ecotopia, Solar Punk, Soleri’s Arcosanti, and combining the primitive and futuristic.
How we have the technology to advance civilization, but corporate and political corruption stands in the way.
Aldous Huxley’s Novel Island.
Jungian archetypes.
The upcoming sequel to the book The Golden City about the colonists returning to Earth after being isolated.
Social nudity, it’s place in the book’s space colony, and whether our aversion to it is rational.
The historic of social nudity, attitudes in Europe and Japan, and the Freikörperkultur Movement in Germany.
Different cultural attitudes towards sex in America, Europe, and Japan.
Developmental vs. chronological age.
The history of attitudes towards sexuality in the West, age of consent laws, and how they affected the arts.
Nudity in art; French Rococo painter François Boucher’s Leda and the Swan; works by Edgar Degas, Vincent van Gogh, and Jean-Honoré Fragonard.
Japanese Shunga art.
The debate about what is art and what is erotica.
Controversial nude photographers Bill Henson, Jock Sturges and David Hamilton.
The film Louis Malle’s Pretty Baby (1978), Eva Ionesco, and Natalie Portman in Léon: The Professional.

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Delphi Murders: My Clearing of Two of My Major POI’s

NOTE TO COMMENTERS 1:

I am getting tired of saying this over and over, but most of the material below is made up of rumors and my own opinions and theories. None of that is represented as fact. Furthermore, I am not using rumors as reliable sources as has been alleged. I never said they were reliable sources. How reliable is a rumor? That’s for you to determine, but in general a rumor is not considered to be a reliable source, and they are not treated as such below. 

Also when I say I am 100% sure of something, that means that I am 100% sure of it in my own mind. All of us are 100% sure of all sorts of things we cannot prove. That’s the nature of the human condition. We simply assume many things are facts until proven otherwise. Now many of these things that I was completely certain of were later proven to be wrong. Such is the case with many other things people become certain of in their own mind. Once again, when I say I am sure or certain or 100% certain, it means only that I am sure in my own mind. I am not stating that any of these things are facts. They are simply my convictions. Any of all of these firmly held beliefs of mine about this case could possibly will later prove to be false.

The only thing that is represented as fact are statements sourced from LE or the media. If you have issues with rumors, theories, opinions. etc., just quit reading right now and save yourself the heartache. 

NOTE TO COMMENTERS 2:

I thought I made this one thing perfectly clear as Richard Nixon used to say:

I have no sources whatsoever among the families of the girls.

I have no sources whatsoever in LE, local or otherwise. 

There ya go.

What I do have is sources close to the families. These people generally live in Delphi and the surrounding region. So that makes my rumors even more hearsay. I’m not even talking to the families. I am talking to people who talk to the families!

Of course I have no LE sources. I thought I made that clear. Never have. Yes, I have talked to some of them, but of course they didn’t tell me a thing. A couple of times they told me that a certain person was a POI or that a certain person had been cleared with an airtight alibi. I suppose they don’t mind giving out that information. But other than that, they don’t tell me jack. It’s hard enough to even get them to call you back. I think if I asked them if my name was Robert Lindsay, they would say, “I am sorry, but I cannot comment on matters relating to an ongoing investigation.” That’s how bad it is.

So what do I have? Once again, I have sources who are close to LE. They get their information from LE, then they talk to me. So once again this is even more hearsay, as I am not even talking to LE but to the people who are talking to LE.

I really wish people would quit claiming I have LE or family sources. I just don’t. If you think I have these sources, just quit reading my stuff right now and go away. You will not be missed!

NOTE TO COMMENTERS 3: The lies never end. The latest is “Lindsay takes other people’s theories and claims they are his own.” Of course I don’t. This website is nothing but a compendium of rumors from all over the Net regarding this crime. I go through the rumors and try to rank them on a scale of weak to strong. I compare them against other rumors to see which one is better. All sorts of theories have been flying around since day one. I report those too.

The theories are really just more rumors. I’d say the vast majority of the rumor theories reported here were thought up by other people. I find most of my theories on other sites about this crime. That’s how it works, you know. You get theories about the crime from others. Yes, you use your own theories and you use other people’s theories. I really do not have time to down through the list of theories and say where I got them from. I have come up with a few of my own, but even with those, I guess someone else thought of them first. Also a lot of the theories here are also the result of constant brainstorming I do with my fellow sleuths.

Sun: Robert, elimination of all your recent POI’s makes sense except for one. Multiple commenters in this new continue to refer to MP/CP. That was also the one avenue I was surprised to see you now rule out. Was there something definitive that resulted in your shift in thinking? What was it?

The names of MP and CP have been commonly bandied about among both locals and non-locals as possible suspects in the Delphi Murders. After much consideration, I am making this post to state my opinion that both of these men are innocent of the murders of Liberty German and Abigail Williams.

The purpose of this post is to announce my clearing of both MP and CP as POI’s. I will share photos that can reveal these men’s identities, but as I am acquitting them, I don’t see why this is a problem. This whole post is about what I feel is their innocence, so I do not see what the fuss would be.

MP and CP are both cleared at least in my mind. Obviously I cannot clear anyone, but I can clear some suspects in my own mind anyway and that is all that this post is about.

Yes, both CP and MP have rock solid alibis for the period of the crime. CP was at work at Subaru, and MP was at work at his business. Both CP and MP appeared on the scene at 5:30 PM as part of the initial search and searched for at least four hours until 9:30 PM. Family and friends came back at 12 PM and searched until 2:30 AM. I assume that CP and MP were part of this second group. So CP and MP are accounted for at the time of the crime.

If the girls were being held in the barn as I believe, MP and CP would have had to come back probably at 2:30 PM to participate in the goings on at the barn. That seems most unlikely to me, as this seems to be about the time the boys in the barn were finishing up business. The girls were probably dumped between 2:30 AM and 7:30 AM. If CP and MP were missing from their homes at this time, we would have heard about it. One may inquire of Becky P regarding MP’s whereabouts at that time. I am sure she will tell you he was at home.

Of all of the people wounded in the fallout from this crime, Becky Patty seems to have been injured worst of all. I have heard that Becky goes in for her appointments in town and refuses to talk. She won’t say a word. She just sits there and sobs the whole time. She’s taking this harder than anyone. You have to prioritize your grief and rage or your marriage. I am quite certain that Becky Patty values her grief far more than her marriage. If she thought for one second that MP was involved, she would have turned him in in a NY minute. The fact that she has not speaks volumes to me.

Also I have heard testimonies from people who know MP that he is a solid stand-up guy. I have reason to believe he is not perfect, especially in terms of his relationship to Libby. However, this looks more like a case of over-parenting than anything else. People who know MP are dumbfounded that he could be involved and insist that he just doesn’t have it in him.

Looking at his history, MP seems to be a stand-up guy, particularly in terms of the seedy hillbilly underbelly of Delphi you glimpse when you rip that fake Mayberry hardcore Christian conservative facade off. Delphi is Tobacco Road a century in the future. All is not as it seems in this seemingly idyllic all-American town.

In terms of that backdrop, MP seems to be one of the finest men in town. He runs his own business and makes a good living at it. It would be hard to see him jeopardize that. He has taken in a number of kids as adoptees. It looks like 3-4 at last count. The rumor that he is a Satanist is probably not true. Instead, he seems to be a devoutly religious Christian. He took in CP as an adopted child also, so CP is not his real son. He also took in Libby. He’s more of a long-suffering man in the true Christian spirit of Dostoevsky and You Know Who who sacrifices for others with little complaint.

The Case Against MP

Police said they were looking for someone wearing black tennis shoes with a white stripe. I have two photos of MP wearing black tennis shoes with a white stripe.

Mike Patty black tennis shoes white stripe

MP’s black and white shoes from a distance.

MP’s lower right arm was badly scratched up right after the crime.

Scratches on Mike Pattys arm

Scratches on MP’s arm seen soon after the crime. Although I regard this man as innocent, I still have no explanation for these marks.

MP wore a watch on his left wrist. Soon after the crime, the watch was still there, but the clock  face seemed to have been ripped off the watch and all that was left was a partial watchband in the form of a bracelet.

Also his seeming lack of emotional response to his granddaughter being murdered is puzzling. A few months after the time, MP was thought to have an air of relief about him.

MP bears a very strong resemblance to Bridge Guy when photos are compared.

MP and Bridge Guy

Side by side comparisons of BG and MP show a remarkable resemblance.

MP had a strained relationship with Libby. She had run away from home many times, which was in part behind the muted response to her being missing. No one knows why she kept running away. Libby complained the MP stalked her. She also was known to hide when he came to see her. Some have suggested that this may mean that MP was having sex with his daughter.

MP had a strained relationship with Libby’s birth mother. MP was also said to be exasperated by the task of raising Libby.

MP is Liberty’s guardian, her own grandfather. His son CP may have been having sex with Libby according to statements he made on Facebook.

Cody Patty conversation about Libby

Statement by CP suggesting sex with an underage girl, possibly Libby.

Son is 28 years old. In the US, that man is a child molester and will go down on that charge and be registered sex offender for the rest of his life. CP may also have been having sex with Libby’s sister, now 16, starting when she was 13. He would have been an adult when possibly doing that too, and it was also illegal.

Kelsis story

Kelsi’s story. I think there is a longer version on the Net. A couple of local women told me that they thought the older man Kelsi was having sex with was CP.

According to this theory, Libby may have been killed to prevent a possible pregnancy or to keep her from going to authorities about the statutory rape.

The Case Against CP

CP and MP are both rumored to be involved in child pornography.

CP already has ~4 DUI’s at the young age of 28. Surely he has been in jail before. The DUI’s are at ~2 year intervals dating back to when he was ~20 years old. CP is a charming Alpha male player type with a bad boy air about him.

CP has some quite unsavory friends, including one in Lafayette who was arrested on 2-15 for possession of methamphetamine, sale of methamphetamine and having a sexual relationship with a 16 year old girl whom he also photographed. Photos were found on his phone.

Secondary Motive for MP

Secondary motive may be Satanism/occult. There is an occult circle in Carroll County that has been there for decades and holds regular outdoor meetings and ceremonies. Both MS and MP are rumored to be practicing Satanists and members of this occult circle. Probably not a primary motive, but they may have thought if they were going to kill them anyway, they might as well make it into a Satanic sacrifice.

Killed on the 13th: bad luck day, occult significance

32: add up numbers in kill date and get 32. 32 has occult significance, Day of Sacrifice

Abigail Williams: Abigail Williams, accuser in Salem witch trials, sent a number of women to their deaths who were accused of being witches. Satanists consider her an eternal enemy who sent many persons who they call witches to their deaths. They also say she was a traitor and a former witch herself. Now Abigail Williams lives as a 13 yr old girl in Indiana, and they get to kill their age old enemy, Abigail Williams.

Primary motive: The S’s motives are presently unknown. MP may killed Libby to protect CP from possible charges of statutory rape from Libby which would have sent him to prison for child molestation and put him on the Registered Sex Offender list for rest of life.

Ron Logan: Remember Oswald, “I’m just a patsy!”

Ivan Brumbaugh: Innocent, guilty of contaminating a crime scene.

Rejoinders to the charges against MP and CP:

Police said they were looking for someone wearing black tennis shoes with a white stripe. I have two photos of MP wearing black tennis shoes with a white stripe: MP’s shoes are actually not tennis shoes, but instead are high-top sneakers. I do not believe we are talking about the same shoes here.

Mike Patty black tennis shoes white stripe closeup

MP’s black shoes with white stripe from a distance.

MP’s lower right arm was badly scratched up right after the crime. Suggestion is his lower arm got torn up by a violent victim he was fighting with: People who know MP state that his arm has been this way for a long time as a result of weathering and a lifetime of hard work. They say these scars did not appear overnight but have been there for some time. In lieu of any evidence for the other theory, this seems to be the best explanation for these wounds.

Mike Patty broken watch

So called broken watch was actually a memorial bracelet from a charity bike ride on 2-15.

MP wore a watch on his left wrist. Soon after the crime, the watch was still there, but the clock  face seemed to have been ripped off the watch and all that was left was a partial watchband in the form of a bracelet. Suggestion is that the watch face was torn off by a victim he was tussling violently with: This is a matter of misidentification. MP apparently removed his watch after the crime. He acquired a memorial bracelet at the charity bike ride after the deaths. It is this bracelet that can be seen on his wrist, not a broken watch.

Mike Patty

This is the photograph where MP was said to have scratches on one arm and a broken watch on the other. See rejoinders above.

His seeming lack of emotional response to his granddaughter being murdered is puzzling: Many people are suspicious of MP’s behavior after the crime. However, given his solid alibis, I simply feel that people handle emotions in different ways. I have been accused of being a bit of a Doctor Spock myself, but I do have emotions, I assure you. I feel this is simply MP’s individual way of processing this trauma.

A few months after the time, MP was thought to have an air of relief about him. This suggests that he may have been relieved that his role in the crime was not found out: Given his solid alibi, I feel sure he was not involved. Perhaps the sense of relief is in the sense that his own trauma is fading as the events are starting to fade into memory and he is getting back to the business of living. Grieving is a sign of compassion and humanity, but life is for the living. Spinoza said as much. Regardless of your trauma, life must go on. The girls are gone no matter how MP processes this crime. He can be a broken man forever or he can move on, and the girls are not coming back either way. So there is no practical reason to ruin your own life over the death of another. You are just creating one more victim.

head down comparison 20

Striking resemblance of MP and the Bridge Guy.

MP bears a very strong resemblance to Bridge Guy when photos are compared: The photos of MP and Bridge Guy do show a remarkable resemblance. In fact, a fellow sleuth is so convinced by this analysis that he is certain that MP killed those girls. The problem here would only be known by those of us who have seen many such comparisons. The photo of BG is very poor. It seems half of Delphi and many men in the surrounding area and even up to 350 miles away show a striking resemblance to BG.

This is also not the first photo comparison I have seen showing a remarkable resemblance to a POI and Bridge Guy. I have seen at least three others where you would swear that man had to be BG. Obviously all three of these men cannot be BG. Saying someone looks like BG is of limited utility as so many fit the bill. Even photo lineups showing striking resemblances are not impressive as MP’s is the fourth one I have seen so far. Photos of men looking like BG and even comparisons like the above showing remarkable resemblances with BG are of limited utility.

Further, MP appears to have a rock solid alibi that he was at work at the time of the abduction when this photograph of BG was taken. Unless MP can be in two places at once somehow, he cannot possibly be BG, striking resemblances be damned.

In addition, MP seems much heavier than BG whose weight was estimated by an expert at 180 pounds. In addition, he does not seem to be a tall man. I do not know MP’s height, but I question whether is even 5’10, which is BG’s height. His height and weight would seem to rule out his being BG.

MP had a strained relationship with Libby. She had run away from home many times, which was in part behind the muted response to her being missing. No one knows why she kept running away. Libby complained the MP stalked her. She also was known to hide when he came to see her. Some have suggested that this may mean that MP was having sex with his daughter: MP and Libby had a difficult relationship, and she seemed frightened of him and accused him of stalking her. She hid from him when he came. This would seem to imply that not all was kosher with Dad and daughter in this household.

However, I think this is more a sign of over-parenting. Knowing his deeply religious background, MP may have been a strict stepfather. The stalking may have been him trying to keep tabs on a rebellious daughter. She may have been hiding from him if he was a strict disciplinarian. There is no evidence for what boils down to WAG’s that MP was having sex with his daughter, and it seems quite out of character for MP.

MP had a strained relationship with Libby’s birth mother. MP was also said to be exasperated by the task of raising Libby. Implication here is that by killing  Libby, MP was ridding himself of an exasperating problem. I must say that killing Libby would make MP’s life orders of magnitude worse, assuming he was caught, than the trying task of raising Libby.  MP also seems to be a true Christian long-suffering for good and the good of others sort. Dostoevsky says “the Christian must fail.” This means that in a world ruled by evil, the only way to win and get ahead is to be bad. Trying to be good is futile and will only end in poverty and failure. Although MP is not poor, his life is in line with this thinking that in an evil world, men dedicated to the good are bound to suffer.  This is probably part of his religious faith and he accepts it as such.

Possible Satanism/occult motive to the crime. Secondary motive may be Satanism/occult. There is an occult circle in Carroll County that has been there for decades and holds regular outdoor meetings and ceremonies. Both MS and MP are rumored to be practicing Satanists and members of this occult circle. Probably not a primary motive, but they may have thought if they were going to kill them anyway, they might as well make it into a Satanic sacrifice: For the life of me, I cannot see MP as a Satanism or even being involved in the occult in any way. I am just not buying it. He would have to live an extreme double life as both a deeply religious Christian and a Satanist. Just forget it.

Rejoinders to the Case Against CP

Cody Patty confessing to sex with Liberty German 2

Facebook post with CP stating he had sex with an underage girl. People who saw this said he was confessing to having sex with Libby.

MP is Liberty’s guardian, her own grandfather, His son CP may have been having sex with Libby. Son is 28 years old. In the US, that man is a child molester and will go down on that charge and be registered sex offender for the rest of his life. CP may also have been having sex with Libby’s sister, now 16, starting when she was 13. He was an adult when possibly doing that too, and it was also illegal. Libby may have been killed to prevent a possible pregnancy or to keep her from going to authorities about the statutory rape: A recent theory, the best theory so far, is that Abbie was pregnant, and the crime was a botched abortion. It sounds bizarre, but it makes more sense than anything prior.

Perhaps CP had sex with Libby. This may be suggested from Facebook posts where he admits to having had sex with a 14 year old girl. Bizarrely, this post was made on 2-14, the day the girls bodies were discovered. CP’s friends say he was just joking around and suggest that these are just lyrics to a song, possibly a rap song. CP is either not very smart or he has very poor taste to be making such statements after two young teenage girls were raped and murdered. Hence perhaps he and his father were worried about a possible sex charge and resulting RSO status for life. There may also have been a worry that Libby was pregnant.

The fact that CP and MP both have rock solid alibis for the crime period would seem to render this motive moot. Further, it is not even 100% certain that CP had sex with Libby, or if he did, if she was going to turn him in. Libby was almost surely not pregnant. If she was not pregnant, why would anyone worry that she was? This was always an interesting motive, but it has bit the dust with the excellent alibis of CP and MP.

Two local women told me that CP had sex with Libby and also was suspected to be the older man who Libby’s sister Kelsi wrote about having a long-term sexual affair with. CP’s friends deny that he has committed statutory rape, but there are a number of people in and around Delphi who state the opposite. At any rate, one of the possible victims is dead now, and dead girls can’t testify. The other girl is now older but was known for refusing to finger the man she was having sex with because she loved him. So CP seems in the clear even if the accusations are true, and we have no proof that they are. We only have rumors. At any rate, this case is about the rapes and murders of two young teenage girls. Statutory rape is another matter altogether and is frankly beyond the scope of this post and for that matter this amateur investigation we have going on here.

In addition, it is not even certain that CP had sex with any underage teenage girls ever, as his friends claim that his confession is just a joke.

I will say that CP does not seem have very good judgement and is no stranger to breaking the law.  He’s clearly spent months in jail, and his driver’s license is probably suspended for quite some time. He’s hardly an upstanding fellow, but I do not believe he is a murderer.

Cody Patty confessing to sex with Liberty German

A photo that some think shows a close relationship between Libby and CP. However, they were also cousins, though not related by blood. Cousins can be quite close.

CP and MP are both rumored to be involved in child pornography: This is quite a stunning charge, and no evidence has been provided for it. CP may like to have sex with underage girls and men who do so, often photograph their activities. So we are not talking about the real deal child pornography but instead media involving naked teenage girls or sex with teenage girls. If you have ever seen a photo of a naked teenage girl (there are many quite legal nudist photos on the Net if you wish to peek), it looks exactly like a naked woman. Any normal man would be aroused by such a thing, so it’s not abnormal to find this arousing.

Although CP may have taken such photos at such time, I very much doubt if MP did unless he led some double life. Perhaps MP had a double life, but I doubt it. Also MP does not seem to be a sexually obsessed fellow. He may well enjoy sex, but I don’t think he is into sex to the point where it becomes an obsession and a problem, sometimes with criminal overtones. I’m just not buying this.

CP has some quite unsavory friends, including one in Lafayette who was arrested on 2-15 for possession of methamphetamine, sale of methamphetamine and having a sexual relationship with a 16 year old girl whom he also photographed. Photos were found on his phone: Clearly CP is not an angel by any means. But having bad friends and being a rapist-murderer are two different things. Fortunately, we are not allowed to be charged with having criminal friends, or quite a few of us would be imprisoned.

CP already has ~4 DUI’s at the young age of 28. Surely he has been in jail before. The DUI’s are at ~2 year intervals dating back to when he was ~20 years old:  CP has worse problems with alcohol and driving as Ron Logan, and Ron is 50 years CP’s senior. CP is not getting off to a very good start in life. But being a drunk driver and being a rapist-murderer are two very different things, as the persecution of Ron Logan showed us.

CP is a charming Alpha male player type with a bad boy air about him: Many men are like this. Rakes are not the finest of men, and they are no doubt quite happy with that status. Even aging roues like me are not so exemplary. There’s a difference between being a bad boy and a bad man. Lots of us are bad boys. I still get called that, and I am almost 60. It may well be terminal in my case. Bad boys are mostly just rebels who live up to the Alpha male stereotype. Women love bad boys, much to their detriment, but their lust for scary men is part of what drives so many men to play the role. If we men are to be rewarded for acting like callous sociopaths, a lot of us will play that role, if only to get laid. Sorry ladies, this is just how men are. If you don’t like it, there’s always the YWCA.

The man who did this crime is surely a bad boy, but he is also something much worse – is a bad man. CP is quite a bad boy, but I doubt if he is a real bad man of the type that would do such a crime.

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Filed under Christianity, Crime, Gender Studies, Girls, Intoxicants, Jailbait, Law, Law enforcement, Man World, Midwest, Psychology, Regional, Religion, Romantic Relationships, Sex, Speed, Stimulants, USA

The Lies Never Stop

NOTE TO COMMENTERS 1:

I am getting tired of saying this over and over, but most of the material below is made up of rumors and my own opinions and theories. None of that is represented as fact. Furthermore, I am not using rumors as reliable sources as has been alleged. I never said they were reliable sources. How reliable is a rumor? That’s for you to determine, but in general a rumor is not considered to be a reliable source, and they are not treated as such below. 

Also when I say I am 100% sure of something, that means that I am 100% sure of it in my own mind. All of us are 100% sure of all sorts of things we cannot prove. That’s the nature of the human condition. We simply assume many things are facts until proven otherwise. Now many of these things that I was completely certain of were later proven to be wrong. Such is the case with many other things people become certain of in their own mind. Once again, when I say I am sure or certain or 100% certain, it means only that I am sure in my own mind. I am not stating that any of these things are facts. They are simply my convictions. Any of all of these firmly held beliefs of mine about this case could possibly will later prove to be false.

The only thing that is represented as fact are statements sourced from LE or the media. If you have issues with rumors, theories, opinions. etc., just quit reading right now and save yourself the heartache. 

NOTE TO COMMENTERS 2:

I thought I made this one thing perfectly clear as Richard Nixon used to say:

I have no sources whatsoever among the families of the girls.

I have no sources whatsoever in LE, local or otherwise. 

There ya go.

What I do have is sources close to the families. These people generally live in Delphi and the surrounding region. So that makes my rumors even more hearsay. I’m not even talking to the families. I am talking to people who talk to the families!

Of course I have no LE sources. I thought I made that clear. Never have. Yes, I have talked to some of them, but of course they didn’t tell me a thing. A couple of times they told me that a certain person was a POI or that a certain person had been cleared with an airtight alibi. I suppose they don’t mind giving out that information. But other than that, they don’t tell me jack. It’s hard enough to even get them to call you back. I think if I asked them if my name was Robert Lindsay, they would say, “I am sorry, but I cannot comment on matters relating to an ongoing investigation.” That’s how bad it is.

So what do I have? Once again, I have sources who are close to LE. They get their information from LE, then they talk to me. So once again this is even more hearsay, as I am not even talking to LE but to the people who are talking to LE.

I really wish people would quit claiming I have LE or family sources. I just don’t. If you think I have these sources, just quit reading my stuff right now and go away. You will not be missed!

NOTE TO COMMENTERS 3: The lies never end. The latest is “Lindsay takes other people’s theories and claims they are his own.” Of course I don’t. This website is nothing but a compendium of rumors from all over the Net regarding this crime. I go through the rumors and try to rank them on a scale of weak to strong. I compare them against other rumors to see which one is better. All sorts of theories have been flying around since day one. I report those too.

The theories are really just more rumors. I’d say the vast majority of the rumor theories reported here were thought up by other people. I find most of my theories on other sites about this crime. That’s how it works, you know. You get theories about the crime from others. Yes, you use your own theories and you use other people’s theories. I really do not have time to down through the list of theories and say where I got them from. I have come up with a few of my own, but even with those, I guess someone else thought of them first. Also a lot of the theories here are also the result of constant brainstorming I do with my fellow sleuths.

Boy I cannot believe how much people lie about me. Almost every single thing my enemies say about me is a flat-out lie. At best they are deliberate distortions deviously taken out of context or misinterpreted to make me look bad. It’s hard to believe so many people are full of so much hate.

Here are some samples.

Robert Lindsay had a friend draw it. At least thats what he said. Le is saying it is not legitimate and are not condoning it.

Two heads comparison

The drawing in question is on the right.

Of course I didn’t have a friend draw it! I think I got it off Websleuths. It’s provenance is uncertain.

My enemies are retarded. They are confusing two different drawings.

One was of a young man who looks nothing like Bridge Guy. This is the one that LE immediately denounced and said was not commissioned by them.

The one above however that I found on Websleuths had comments with it stating that this drawing was apparently drawn by an LE artist. I am not aware of LE ever renouncing this photo even once.

Robert Lindsay has been on his blog all weekend, accusing everyone under the sun of killing the girls. First, he said it was someone that would knock us out of our seats (that never came, however). Then he accused Abbie’s boyfriend and his father. Then another father/son duo with the last name of “S”. Then that SAME family, but this time the uncle/nephew duo.

First it was a murder to keep them quiet because Abbie was pregnant and they didn’t want to deal with the baby and then it was a “botched abortion” that was never meant to be a murder. (So what does he think happened? The men were going to pull the girls off the bridge, give Abbie an abortion, and then send them on their merry way?) A very long blog entry talks about 13 years old girls and their sexual appetites. (Y’all can find that one on your own.) He also suspects a Satanic conspiracy.

Basically, Robert has thrown a bunch of things at the wall to see what sticks. His followers continue to “thank him” for providing such “good” updates and information, even though he’s getting his info from forums, boards, and messageboards and then just rewriting him.

I have no idea if any of his theories are correct. However, if they’re not, then he’s dragging a bunch of people through the mud.

I am not accusing anyone of doing this crime. We do have some folks who I and others regard as suspects or POI’s.

Incidentally, none of these people or theories came from me. They come from two women, one in Delphi and another in a nearby town, who have done more research on this case than anyone I know outside of LE. These theories and the suspects are from them. I know you all do not like me “stealing” suspects and theories, but that’s just tough shit.

We have elaborated on these women’s theories. I have no idea if these men are guilty or not. That is for LE to determine.

Incidentally the theory and suspects coming from these women are the only ones I have heard so far that are coherent, make much sense and explain the facts of the case.  That doesn’t mean it’s true, but it’s the best theory so far.

As far as dragging names through the mud, every forum, in particular the Topix forum where this slug slithered out of it, has been naming people with real names and faces all over the place. They have probably named 50-100 people by now.

I have never accused Abbie’s boyfriend of a thing. Nor have I accused his father of a thing. I am also not accusing any father-son duo with the last name S. I don’t know where they came up with that because I never said it.

Then the same family, but this time an uncle/nephew team of doing it.

I never said that either. It is true that we regard some members of the S. family as suspects or POI’s.

First it was a murder to keep them quiet because Abbie was pregnant and they didn’t want to deal with the baby

Correct, and this is the best theory on this murder I have heard so far.

then it was a “botched abortion” that was never meant to be a murder.

We don’t know. Maybe they intended to leave her alive, or maybe they intended to kill her. Further, there is superb evidence for this botched abortion theory.

So what does he think happened? The men were going to pull the girls off the bridge, give Abbie an abortion, and then send them on their merry way?

Actually, some of us thought that maybe they were going to do an amateur abortion on one girl and then terrorize both of them into silence by threatening to kill them if they said anything. If someone threatened to kill me if I talked, I might never talk. This is a valid theory in my opinion.

A very long blog entry talks about 13 years old girls and their sexual appetites. (Y’all can find that one on your own.)

This post says absolutely no such thing about 13 year old girls and their sexual appetites, though obviously that is a valid thing to write about considering the avalanche of lies I am hearing about this subject. Did you know that 10’s of millions of grown women claim 13 year old girls have no sex drive whatsoever? Incredible, isn’t it?

The blog points out the severe puritanism involved in accusing me of libeling a dead girl by saying she had sex. Even if she was 13, it’s not libel to suggest she had sex. It’s only libel if you think sex is some horrible evil and it’s a diabolical insult to accuse a pure and virginal 13 year old angel of such beastly behavior. It’s not libel to state a 13 year old girl had sex because there’s nothing wrong with 13 year old girls having sex. A libel has to be an insult, and that’s not an insult.

I don’t care if 13 year old girls have sex. They can do it all they want for all I care. I only wish that they not get pregnant as a result. The post also states my opinion that teenage minors have free sexual agency and should have a right to have sex with any other teenage minors.

He also suspects a Satanic conspiracy.

Actually, I don’t. This is just another theory from the women I discussed above. These theories are their babies. We are considering a Satanic motive to this crime, especially as two of our POI’s are said to be practicing Satanists with deep involvement in a local occult circle in Carroll County. One of these men is almost certainly a Satanist.

Basically, Robert has thrown a bunch of things at the wall to see what sticks.

Exactly. This is precisely what I want everyone to do. Throw out any theory you have out there, any POI’s or suspects you have, and let’s see what you’ve got. Incidentally this is the approach used by all good detectives.

even though he’s getting his info from forums, boards, and message boards and then just rewriting him.

I do not know how many times I have answered this. The vast majority of theories and suspects on this site are not my own. I got them from other people, as noted above. I never claimed that I thought them up by myself. This site is a clearinghouse for all information about the case, all suspects and POI’s, from anyone and anywhere.

You got a problem with that? Tough shit.

I have no idea if any of his theories are correct. However, if they’re not, then he’s dragging a bunch of people through the mud.

Tough shit. That’s just too bad, now isn’t it?

We are not naming anyone by name. We are using initials. Also I am not revealing my photographic evidence (yes, I have it) against these suspects. That is available only by emailing me. In addition, my full descriptions of the cases against these 3-4 men are also obtainable from me only by email. I will not put this photo evidence on the site, nor will I spell out the exact cases against these men. It’s not proper to do that in a public forum.

With the precautions we have put in place, we think we are balancing people’s right to privacy against our legal attempts to solve this case.

And if you all don’t like it, well, that’s just too bad.

If you enjoy the hard work that goes into this website, please consider a contribution to support the continuation of the site. Donations are the only thing that keep the site operating.

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Filed under Crime, Girls, Law enforcement, Midwest, Regional, Sex, USA

No, You Cannot Libel the Dead

NOTE TO COMMENTERS 1:

I am getting tired of saying this over and over, but most of the material below is made up of rumors and my own opinions and theories. None of that is represented as fact. Furthermore, I am not using rumors as reliable sources as has been alleged. I never said they were reliable sources. How reliable is a rumor? That’s for you to determine, but in general a rumor is not considered to be a reliable source, and they are not treated as such below. 

Also when I say I am 100% sure of something, that means that I am 100% sure of it in my own mind. All of us are 100% sure of all sorts of things we cannot prove. That’s the nature of the human condition. We simply assume many things are facts until proven otherwise. Now many of these things that I was completely certain of were later proven to be wrong. Such is the case with many other things people become certain of in their own mind. Once again, when I say I am sure or certain or 100% certain, it means only that I am sure in my own mind. I am not stating that any of these things are facts. They are simply my convictions. Any of all of these firmly held beliefs of mine about this case could possibly will later prove to be false.

The only thing that is represented as fact are statements sourced from LE or the media. If you have issues with rumors, theories, opinions. etc., just quit reading right now and save yourself the heartache. 

NOTE TO COMMENTERS 2:

I thought I made this one thing perfectly clear as Richard Nixon used to say:

I have no sources whatsoever among the families of the girls.

I have no sources whatsoever in LE, local or otherwise. 

There ya go.

What I do have is sources close to the families. These people generally live in Delphi and the surrounding region. So that makes my rumors even more hearsay. I’m not even talking to the families. I am talking to people who talk to the families!

Of course I have no LE sources. I thought I made that clear. Never have. Yes, I have talked to some of them, but of course they didn’t tell me a thing. A couple of times they told me that a certain person was a POI or that a certain person had been cleared with an airtight alibi. I suppose they don’t mind giving out that information. But other than that, they don’t tell me jack. It’s hard enough to even get them to call you back. I think if I asked them if my name was Robert Lindsay, they would say, “I am sorry, but I cannot comment on matters relating to an ongoing investigation.” That’s how bad it is.

So what do I have? Once again, I have sources who are close to LE. They get their information from LE, then they talk to me. So once again this is even more hearsay, as I am not even talking to LE but to the people who are talking to LE.

I really wish people would quit claiming I have LE or family sources. I just don’t. If you think I have these sources, just quit reading my stuff right now and go away. You will not be missed!

NOTE TO COMMENTERS 3: The lies never end. The latest is “Lindsay takes other people’s theories and claims they are his own.” Of course I don’t. This website is nothing but a compendium of rumors from all over the Net regarding this crime. I go through the rumors and try to rank them on a scale of weak to strong. I compare them against other rumors to see which one is better. All sorts of theories have been flying around since day one. I report those too.

The theories are really just more rumors. I’d say the vast majority of the rumor theories reported here were thought up by other people. I find most of my theories on other sites about this crime. That’s how it works, you know. You get theories about the crime from others. Yes, you use your own theories and you use other people’s theories. I really do not have time to down through the list of theories and say where I got them from. I have come up with a few of my own, but even with those, I guess someone else thought of them first. Also a lot of the theories here are also the result of constant brainstorming I do with my fellow sleuths.

The dead cannot currently be defamed under English law. This is because defamation, whether it is libel or slander, is a personal action which cannot be assigned or brought on someone’s behalf. … Similarly, where a person commences defamation proceedings but passes away before a decision is reached, the action is abated.

I am now getting accused of libeling Abigail Williams, a dead person. How am I libeling her? I am accusing the poor thing of having sex!

Anyway, I am not accusing her of anything. I have my ear to the ground for the deepest and best rumors going around right inside of Delphi, and I am in connection with amateur sleuths who are doing some of the best work I have ever seen on this case. These people have reported to me that there is deep longstanding rumor in Delphi that Abigail Williams had a boyfriend for months. He is a 16 year old boy whose name is known. There is also a deep and near-secretive whispered rumor that Abbie was pregnant by this boy.

Who told me these diabolical rumors about this poor, untainted virgin maiden? Two women, Two middle aged women. That’s who’s spreading these vile rumors tarnishing the pure and untrammeled reputation of Miss Abigail Williams.

Go take it up with them. It’s your own gender, the females, who are spreading this stuff. I am just passing it along from someone else.

I’m not accusing anyone of anything. I am just saying that there is a rumor saying this and that. By the way, reporting of rumors is generally immune from libel law also, as long as they are stated as such. It’s almost impossible to win a libel case against any real journalist in the US. The free speech laws have been so widely by court precedent that you have to be pretty horrible to lose a libel suit.

Oh, the horrors! Can you imagine, a teenage girl having sex with a teenage boy! Their reputations would be ruined! I mean, that never happens, ever! Teenage girls never have sex with teenage boys!

We are a terribly puritanical culture when you are said to libel a sexually mature human being for stating the so called damaging information that they…! Oh my God! I can’t say the word because I am such an uptight prude! That word! That evil, gross, sickening word! That they had…they had…sex! Oh no, I said the word! Ew gross! What word? Sex! Shhhhhhhhhhhhh that’s an evil word. Don’t say that word! You will go to Hell! God will strike you down!

All you women screaming that a female can be libeled at all by accusing her of having sex, do you support ISIS? The Taliban? I mean that’s the way they think.

Got news for everyone here. There’s nothing wrong with having sex! There’s nothing wrong with any mature human having sex with another mature human, provided it is legal. I don’t even care if 13 and 14 year old girls have sex. Enough of them do anyway. I would just want them to make sure they don’t get pregnant. You can’t stop enormous natural human drives.

Telling mature people to not have sex is like telling to them to not eat, sleep or drink. Sex is a natural human function. It’s a good thing. It’s not an evil that sends you to Hell as so many women on here seem to think.

And it’s legal for underage teens to have sex with each other. Here in California, they can do it all they want. Nor should there be anything LE can do about it.

Teenagers have free sexual agency and should have the right to express their natural sexual desires and perform their normal sexual functions with other teenagers. Why do you want to make it against the law?

Are you a Puritan? A Victorian? A Comstock? A fuddy duddy? A prig? An uptight person? Are you repressed? Where are your sackcloths? Do you flagellate yourself? Are you frigid? Are you impotent? Do you lie there like a fish? Do you get off three seconds after you are in? Do you insist on doing it in the dark because you are so repressed? Are you a lousy lay? Why do you hate sex so much? Too much religion?

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Delphi Murders: Possible Motives

NOTE TO COMMENTERS 1:

I am getting tired of saying this over and over, but most of the material below is made up of rumors and my own opinions and theories. None of that is represented as fact. Furthermore, I am not using rumors as reliable sources as has been alleged. I never said they were reliable sources. How reliable is a rumor? That’s for you to determine, but in general a rumor is not considered to be a reliable source, and they are not treated as such below. 

The only thing that is represented as fact are statements sourced from LE or the media. If you have issues with rumors, theories, opinions. etc., just quit reading right now and save yourself the heartache. 

NOTE TO COMMENTERS 2:

I thought I made this one thing perfectly clear as Richard Nixon used to say:

I have no sources whatsoever among the families of the girls.

I have no sources whatsoever in LE, local or otherwise. 

There ya go.

What I do have is sources close to the families. These people generally live in Delphi and the surrounding region. So that makes my rumors even more hearsay. I’m not even talking to the families. I am talking to people who talk to the families!

Of course I have no LE sources. I thought I made that clear. Never have. Yes, I have talked to some of them, but of course they didn’t tell me a thing. A couple of times they told me that a certain person was a POI or that a certain person had been cleared with an airtight alibi. I suppose they don’t mind giving out that information. But other than that, they don’t tell me jack. It’s hard enough to even get them to call you back. I think if I asked them if my name was Robert Lindsay, they would say, “I am sorry, but I cannot comment on matters relating to an ongoing investigation.” That’s how bad it is.

So what do I have? Once again, I have sources who are close to LE. They get their information from LE, then they talk to me. So once again this is even more hearsay, as I am not even talking to LE but to the people who are talking to LE.

I really wish people would quit claiming I have LE or family sources. I just don’t. If you think I have these sources, just quit reading my stuff right now and go away. You will not be missed!

NOTE TO COMMENTERS 3: The lies never end. The latest is “Lindsay takes other people’s theories and claims they are his own.” Of course I don’t. This website is nothing but a compendium of rumors from all over the Net regarding this crime. I go through the rumors and try to rank them on a scale of weak to strong. I compare them against other rumors to see which one is better. All sorts of theories have been flying around since day one. I report those too.

The theories are really just more rumors. I’d say the overwhelming majority of theories presented here were thought up by other people. I find most of my theories on other sites about this crime. That’s how it works, you know. You get theories about the crime from others. Yes, you use your own theories and you use other people’s theories. I really do not have time to down through the list of theories and say where I got them from. I have come up with a few of my own, but even with those, I guess someone else thought of them first. Also a lot of the theories here are also the result of constant brainstorming I do with my fellow sleuths.

I will try to sketch out the possible motives for the Delphi killings based on my latest theory. This theory explains the facts of the case better than any I have seen thus far. Now that does not mean it is true. This theory may be well be completely false as all of the other theories have been so far. But it’s worth looking into.

My new theory of this case comes from two middle aged local women who have done more research into this case than anyone I know. So these are not my theories. They are someone else’s. Nevertheless, I think they bear looking into. I have no idea if there is anything to this theory or not, but we need to look at all theories. That’s what real detectives do.

According to this theory, the key to this whole case is the pregnancy of Abbie Williams. Once you start to figure that out, you can start to figure out the case.

A strong rumor which I have heard exclusively from married women with children in and around Delphi is that Abbie Williams was pregnant. A recent elaboration of the rumor said that she was found to be pregnant on autopsy and the baby was determined to be that of Logan Holder, her 16 year old boyfriend. I would like to point out that this rumor derives not from me but from three women age 35-55, all living in Delphi or nearby, and all of whom are married with children. At least one woman is extremely conservative. If you have concerns with the reporting that Abbie was pregnant, please take it up with these women.

Like a sordid B movie, this whole case may revolve around the pregnancy of a very young teenage girl. Unless she had an abortion, her boyfriend, a 16 year old boy named Jason Holder, was looking at becoming a father at age 16 and a lifetime of child support.

Abbie may have refused to get an abortion. This may have become a serious problem. A problem that needed to be eliminated to preserve the reputation, freedom and finances of a young man and his family.

Now if you are reading this and thinking that the boy having sex with these two girls was the murderer of the girls, you would be wrong. I believe he did not participated in this crime. But other people may have, for the motive listed above.

Another possible motive is Satanism and the occult. The Satanism/occult theory is once again from the local women I know. I have no idea how accurate it is. I am just throwing it out there as a possible motive in the case, but I have no idea whether it was a motive at all here.

There is an active occult circle in Carroll County which has been there for decades. If you read up on this case, you will see locals talking about this occult circle and the many strange goings-on centering around them over the years. Strange things written on buildings, odd gatherings by moonlight in the forest – it’s all so strange and creepy. This Satanic circle is active to this day.

The way it ties into this crime is three of the leading male suspects in this crime, age 45 and 55, were reportedly active members of this circle and practicing Satanists. I can verify that at least two of these men, one age 46 and the other 55, are absolutely practicing Satanists. This can easily be determined by looking at their Facebook pages.

From here we may glean the numbers associated with this case like 13 and 32 and the strange killing of Abigail Williams, a 13 year old girl with the same name as a woman who may be one of the Satanists’ worst enemies. This woman is Abigail Williams, the woman who turned in many other women as witches in Salem resulting in the deaths of many of these women who were convicted of witchcraft. Since the Satanists could not get at the original Abigail Williams, perhaps they decided to kill her namesake to get at their enemy that way, 350 years later. I know it sounds strange, but people who are way off into Satanism are not exactly normal people.

However, I do think the occult angle, if it exists at all, is a secondary motive. These girls were killed for reasons centering around the sex life of one girl and the problems that resulted from that. The men were planning to kill them for that reason. Perhaps they thought that as long as they were going to commit a homicide anyway, they may as well make it a Satanic sacrifice to get that extra kick.

  • 13: The murder was committed on the 13th. Unlucky number, the worst unlucky number of them all. Occult significance.
  • 32: Add the numbers of the date of the killing together and you get 32. 32 is a very important number among Satanists. What it means is hard to ascertain, but one source I found said it represented Sacrifice, possibly a Day of Sacrifice.
  • Abigail Williams: 13 year old murder victim and namesake of a woman who may have been one of the Satanists’ worst enemies.
  • Crime scene photos: A Delphi resident obtained crime scene photos and posted them on his website for a short time. They were seen by a number of people who all independently corroborated what they saw. The website owner said that not only did Abbie have a stake in her stomach, implying an attempt to kill a fetus, but that the bodies were posed in an odd way that made him think this was an occult or Satanic killing.

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Primitive People Are Smarter Than You Think

We have a very primitive but wise group of Asians living amongst us around here called Hmong. This is a Chinese minority group that has moved down into Laos in the last 300 years. They did not even have a written language until the 1950’s and they have always lived quite a primitive life in the jungles.

Nevertheless, they are quite wise. I read an ethnography on them one time. It said that the Hmong believe that women who get pregnant before 19-20 are more likely to have problems in childbirth. The people who figured this out had no knowledge of modern medicine. But we now know that females continue to develop until age ~18-19. Pregnancies before this age are more problematic because the female’s hips are not wide enough to carry a baby yet. The final widening of the hips sufficient to carry a baby does not occur until age ~19.

You will notice this if you see 16-18 year old girls with killer curves and skinny bodies. They look incredibly hot but their bodies are not natural. It’s not normal to be skinny and curvy. You want curves, you got a bigger woman. You want thin, you get a stick. These girls look this way because the body in a formal sense is fully developed by age 16 in the sense of sex drive, full breast and pubic hair development, menarche and the full curvy body shape with narrow stomach, wider hips and a projecting butt is present by age 16.

Except for one thing. The hips have not yet widened to full adult proportions. So the 16-18 year old girl look is not natural or normal. It is a phase of incomplete development and makes little sense biologically. Since it is not biologically correct, there are increased pregnancy issues at this age range.

When I learned that the Hmong have a traditional belief that females should not get pregnant until 19-20, I was stunned. These humans had learned this via trial and error over the centuries. They didn’t need modern medicine to tell them the facts. They figured them out on their own.

Similarly, the Hmong have a traditional belief that one cannot learn a new language after age 40. This has been a problem in my area because non-English speaking Hmong in this age group simply refuse to enroll in English classes and so never learn to speak English much at all. The men often pick up a bit of English anyway because they are often working, but the women tend to stay at home, so older Hmong women are often Hmong monolinguals.

I told my mother of this Hmong belief and she said, “Aha! See? They figured that out on their own. And they are probably right. By age 40, it will be awfully hard to pick up a new language.” And studies in formal linguistics are showing this to be true.

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Filed under Anthropology, Applied, Asians, Biology, Cultural, Girls, Health, Hmong, Hmong, Hmong-Mien, Language Families, Language Learning, Linguistics, Medicine, Race/Ethnicity, SE Asians

Updated April 26: Sexually-Motivated Double Homicide in Delphi, Indiana, February 13, 2017: Liberty German and Abigail Williams

This is my long-awaited update. But a lot of new text has been added including things that have never been revealed in the media. I hope this is useful to you (I don’t want to say I hope you enjoy it as that sounds terrible)

Note to commenters: Please stop referring to Unsub as a pedophile. He may well be one, but that’s something that cannot be determined from this crime, as it was not a pedophilic offense. Pedophilic crimes only refer to those against victims who are 12 years old and under.

A hebephilic crime would target a victim of 11-14 years of age. As you can see, there is some overlap around the tweens. Instead of being a pedophilic crime, this was a hebephilic offense. And while the perpetrator could certainly be seen as a hebephile, he’s not necessarily one. If you want to refer to the nature of the offense, use the word hebephilic instead of pedophilic. If you wish to refer to Unsub’s paraphilia, please refer to him as a hebephile and not a pedophile.

Pedophilia: Strong or exclusive sexual preference for girls 12-under.

Hebephilia: Strong or exclusive sexual preference for girls ~11-14.

Age of victims: 13 and 14

You do the math.

Thank you so much for this. 

Note to commenters 2: I am getting tired of saying this over and over, but most of the material below is made up of rumors and my own opinions and theories. None of that is represented as fact. Furthermore, I am not using rumors as reliable sources as has been alleged. I never said they were reliable sources.

How reliable is a rumor? That’s for you to determine, but in general a rumor is not considered to be a reliable source, and they are not treated as such below. The only thing that is represented as fact are statements sourced from LE or the media. If you have issues with rumors, theories, opinions. etc., just quit reading right now and save yourself the heartache. 

Sexually-motivated double homicide of two teenage girls, one 13 and the other 14. For some background on this heartbreaking case, see here.

This is a new update containing lots of new information, mostly in the form of photos, including the first ever published photos of the actual crime scene! This should be a blockbuster post.

How Do I Know All This Stuff?

First: How do I know all this stuff?

Question: “Robert, How Do You Know So Much about Serial Killers, Pedophiles, Hebephiles and Sexual Sadists?”

I have done a lot of research on this case including released information, rumors and statements by LE. I have also spoken to people close to the case, including those close to the search party and LE. I also spoke to other sleuthers and people interested in the case. I am getting my very best information from people who are close to the girls’ families. Of all of the rumors and information I get, these are some of the best. Other information is derived from my own theorizing about the case.

So there’s the source of all of the information.

My Musings on This Case

This was not a crime of opportunity. He planned this very well. He plans his crimes with the utmost meticulousness. That is why he is armed with the gun and disguising himself. Source: My speculation based on the nature of the offense and the obvious skill involved.

Unsub is 5’10, 180 pounds with a bit of a middle aged man’s stomach paunch.  Source: Expert on CNN, paunch obvious in photo.

In my opinion, Unsub’s age is ~60. LE’s latest estimate is that he is 40-50 years old, but that’s seems too young to me. At the very least, that style of pants is outdated, and nowadays is only worn by men over 40 in that area. Conclusion: Anywhere between ~40-60, with an emphasis on the high end. t Sources: LE, sleuths commenting on the photo.

16681525_10155025082032118_8397740859158404533_n

Excellent drawing of Unsub from an LE artist.

Clearly Unsub has a pistol, a .45 or 911. The pistol was holstered to his right side, which means he is left-handed. The outline of the pistol can clearly be seen in the photo released of the man. A photo exists showing the pistol outlined with graphic software. Source: Gun is obviously visible in photograph. Left-handedness concluded from the holstered gun pointing backwards on the right side.

16830677_10155067426604801_3110125659007687143_n

Photo clearly shows a semiautomatic .911 or 45 mm handgun holstered on his right, which means he is left-handed. If you cannot see that obvious gun there, I do not know what to say to you.

Unsub may be trying to disguise himself in the photos by using a hat and a scarf. Source: LE.

Unsub is wearing a hat, a jacket with a hoodie and blue jeans in the photo. In my opinion, the hat is a camouflage hunting cap with padded ear muffs. Unsub is overdressed for the weather. He seems to have layers of clothing on. He has almost his entire body covered with clothing. Part of this is no doubt to disguise himself, but another reason is so he will have few exposed areas of his body where the girls could leave scratch marks if the girls fight back hard, although they still could scratch up his face pretty well. Source: LE, my own theorizing and conjecture, common sense.

tda8c7f81d02f_fbase

In my opinion, this is the type of cap that Unsub is wearing.

What LE refers to as a fanny pack is actually what is called a deer kit. This contains knives, scissors, etc. for cutting up the deer after you kill it. So he is a hunter and he is going out to hunt these girls, and it appears he might be ready to do something terrible to their bodies. Source: A fellow sleuth researched it and discovered that that is actually a deer kit such as a hunter would use. It is too flat to be a fanny pack. Unsub must be a hunter. I doubt if he is a non-hunter because no non-hunter would know about a deer kit.

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GIF image of Unsub photos run together.

There has been much talk about whether or not there were two murderers or one. Initial statements by LE implied that there were two killers, but they have not made any statements to that effect in quite some time. Conclusion: At the moment, the two killers theory is pretty dead ,and it looks like LE is leaning towards one killer. Source: A variety of LE statements and lack thereof.

There have been persistent rumors since even before the case was released to the media (these early rumors coming from family members) that Abbie survived until the next day, 2-14. There were different rumors, including that she was found alive but died on the way to the hospital, that she was alive when found but died soon after, that the coroner said she survived the attack but died of hypothermia in the woods, that her body was still warm when found, etc.

These rumors started almost instantly from people close to the family. We now have some excellent information that she somehow survived the attack and tried to crawl a ways away until she died. I am still getting reports that Abbie died on 2-14, and her body was still warm when found from some of my best sources close to the families, so this version is still strong.

Conclusion: The best analysis now is that Abbie did indeed survive the initial attack and died at some point later on on 2-14. The thing we do not know is how long she survived after she was attacked. She lingered for anywhere from 5-7 hours, which is my theory, and actually, that is nothing short of miraculous considering the gravity of her wounds. Sources: Rumors, people close the family, people close to LE.

Rumors from the search party stated that the girls had to have been moved since the dump site found on 2-14 had been searched on 2-13. The searchers were adamant that they had searched the dump site thoroughly on 2-13.

There is now evidence stating that searchers ran a thermal imager over the area on 2-13 (perhaps with an aircraft?), and while there were plenty of living things down there, none of them were human. In other words, the only things alive in that woods when the imager was run were wild animals. One would think that if the girls had been put there by 4 PM or so on 2-13 that the bodies would have shown up on the thermal imager.

In addition, there is now excellent information that the girls were removed immediately to a structure nearby where they were tortured, raped and homicidally attacked over a period of at at least ~12 hours. LE now accepts that they were removed and returned to site. Also they had to be returned after 2:30 AM when all of the searchers left and no doubt before dawn in the morning, as returning them in the daylight would have been stupid and crazy. Dawn was at 7 AM that day, so they had to be returned between 2:30-7 AM. Sources: People close to the search party, people close to the families, leak from LE.

dump spot with FBI(rz)

The actual body dump area with Ron Logan and an elegantly dressed FBI gumshoe. Dig the long tails on that jacket. Stylin!

Truck at cemetary on edge of dump site(RZ)

Truck parked at SW corner of cemetery at the edge of the trash dump ravine.

Dump site from road to cemetary(resize)

Trash dump ravine from the road to the cemetery. The killer drove down this road from the barn to the cemetery, then to the cemetery, then through the SE gate to Ron Logan’s land and the trail where he dragged the bodies. The entire distance from barn to beginning of trail is no more than 200 yards.

Cemetery on edge of ravine(resize)

The SW side of the cemetery near the trash dump ravine.

Drag area(resize)

This is the actual trail down which the bodies were dragged very early AM 2-14.

Part of cemetary near edge of ravine dump site(resize)

SW corner of the cemetery near the edge of the trash dump ravine.

Trash at dump site(resize)

More trash at the trash dump site on the SW end of the cemetery.

Drag area(resize)

This is apparently the trash dump site on the SW corner of the cemetery, a ravine where people throw trash. At first we thought this was where he dumped the bodies, but then we found the SE gate and the trail and it all made better sense

Dump site(resize)

This is the trash dump site on the ravine in the SW corner where people throw trash. Initially thought to be the body dump site, we realized that that was not possible. My investigator could not walk down that ravine in daylight and he wasn’t dragging two bodies either. We concluded that there was no way for the killer to drag two bodies down  this un-navigable ravine in the middle of night. You can’t even walk down it in the daytime with no bodies. How do you do it at 3 AM dragging two heavy bodies. Just forget it.

gate at SE corner of cemetary(rz)

Gate at the SE corner of the cemetery. The killer drove down a road to this gate early in the AM, opened the gate and drove 10 feet on Ron Logan’s horse pasture to the beginning of a trail to the dump site. He dragged the bodies down this trail in the middle of the night.

3 point turn SW of cemetary bodies dumped to right near stick pile(resize)

This is a three point turn SW of the cemetery leading to a ravine where people throw trash. Originally we thought he threw the bodies down here or dragged the bodies down the slope, but the slope is too steep to hike down, much less drag two bodies at night. And tossing the bodies over would not put them at the dump site. Later we focused on the SE corner of the cemetery where there is an unlocked gate leading to Ron Logan’s horse pasture. 10 feet further, a trail begins down the slope. This trail takes you directly to the dump site. So the killer must have driven to this spot, parked and dragged the bodies down the trail to the dump site. This is doable late at night, though difficult.

There is a rumor about how the girls were moved to the dump site. The rumor said that searchers followed drag marks, presumably left by the girls, to the dump site. So the killer returned the girls to the forest where they were abducted somehow. But this might not be difficult as he kept them alive for at least 12 hours in a barn across the road from Logan’s property. No searchers would have gone near Ron Logan’s outbuildings as they were located far from the search zone, so he had no fear of being caught.

Hence the killer was torturing, raping and homicidally attacking the girls at the same time that searches were ongoing for 10 hours straight. But from the kill site, the killer had a perfect view of the area, and he could determine when the searches were going on and when they stopped. Therefore, he knew when the searches had stopped at 2:30 AM, and he returned them sometime between then and 7 AM that morning.

The kill site is only 200 yards from the cemetery. He took the girls from the kill site to the cemetery and drove to the SE corner of the cemetery. There is a gate there that is open. When you walk through the gate, you are on Ron Logan’s horse pasture. The trail that the girls were dragged down to the dumpsite starts only 10 feet from the cemetery gate.

It is not known how the killer kept the girls quiet, but perhaps he terrorized the girls with a gun. Surely he must have bound and gagged them, probably very soon after he said “Down the hill,” in the tape. They were definitely bound when they were kept in the barn. It also makes sense that he would have kept them alive during this time. The killer remained with the girls the whole time they were in the barn committing his crimes right under the noses of the search parties!

I believe that the homicidal attack on the girls, no doubt the throat slitting, may have been done not long before they were dumped on the hill. One more thing we need to note is that there is no way the killer dumped those bodies there on 2-13 or even up until 2:30 AM on 2-14, as there were loud and obvious searchers with their shouts and lights in the area. You don’t dump bodies right in the middle of a search party that is looking for just those bodies. No one does that.

Yet somehow he dumped those bodies there between 2:30 AM-7:40 AM on 2-14.

There is a rumor says that the killer thrust a large pointed wooden stick into Abbie’s stomach. This brutal spearing must have occurred at the dump site, especially since even that spearing somehow did not kill Abbie! In fact, she survived for at least 3 and maybe 7 hours afterwards! He would not have speared her before being placed at the dump site because it makes no sense to drag a girl with a spear in her down a hill. Further, Abbie survived the spearing, which means she must have been speared at the dump site.

Obviously they were dragged down the hill, placed at the dump site, and then the killer speared Abbie in the stomach as one final Parthian Thrust shows the profound rage, hatred and contempt that this killer must have felt for his victims.

Source: Leaks from LE, people close to the families, my own theorizing. The theory that he removed them from the site to the barn is quite solid, and I believe it is fact, in addition to the location where they were driven in the early AM to the trail where they were dragged, which I also regard as fact.

Fence around cemetary road to Ron Logans(resize)

Fence around cemetery on the road to Ron Logan’s horse pasture at the SE end of the cemetery at a gate. The killer drove this route very early in the AM on route to body dump.

Barn crime scene(rz)

This is the photo that initially led us to consider the barn as a kill site. What is that cop with a dog doing there? That’s a crime scene, and a bad one. We noticed this photo of police with dogs searching the barn and put two and two together. We knew an outbuilding had been used, but we had no idea where it was. The media reports got this all wrong, describing this photo as a search of Ron Logan’s land, when actually it was a search of the Mears property, probably especially the barn.

The first ever photos of the Delphi kill site – -the barn on the Mears property across the street. Here is a side view.

Barn3(RZ)

The first ever photos of the Delphi kill site – the barn on the Mears property across the street. Flowers in the barn. This, in addition to the photos of dogs searching the barn and my investigator’s discussions with Mears family members, solidified my conclusion that this was the kill site. No one knows exactly where the girls were killed. Perhaps it was here?

Barn4(rz)

The first ever photos of the Delphi kill site – the barn on the Mears property across the street. Here is the ill-fated barn. Even in daytime, you cannot see inside the barn. My investigator was only able to see objects at the very front of the barn. Everything else was hidden. You could also pull a car in there as it is big enough to fit a car. The car also would not be seen. Barn is about 50 yards from the road but from the road, visibility into the barn even in daylight is about zero.

Barn1(RZ)

The first ever photos of the Delphi kill site – the barn on the Mears property across the street. Interior of the ill-fated barn. As you can see, it is quite spacious inside. Also people inside are invisible to those on the outside even in daylight. Cloudy weather is worse.

Barn5(RZ)

The first ever photos of the Delphi kill site – the barn on the Mears property across the street. One last photo of the barn, this time from inside the barn. As you can see, you can easily pull a car into that barn.

Someone posted photos supposedly from the body dump site on a website frequented by Delphi residents. The photo was quickly taken down, but a number of people saw it anyway. The photo shows the two dead girls and the coroner. The person who posted the photo had some text saying that the bodies were positioned in an odd way. The only sense that the poster could make out of this odd posing of the bodies is that he thought it might have been some sort of a ritual, possibly a Satanic ritual.

I believe this is called “posing” the bodies and is a favorite with serial killers. There are no details on how the girls were positioned. Conclusion: This is probably a good rumor as people posted what they saw on the site on a family members’ site, and none of the family members said that the information was false. Source: A number of people who saw the Delphi resident’s web page.

The crime scene does not make sense in this case. The girls seem to have been attacked soon after Unsub said, “Go down the hill.” The entire south side of the creek was roped off as a crime scene. I do not feel that this is a homicide site; instead, I feel there was some sort of an altercation here as he tried to put them in a vehicle he had placed there for this purpose.

People are now saying that the whole attack was over soon after it began, and there are reports saying that the 6-minute audiotape contains the horrifying record of a homicide. This would imply that the girls were murdered very quickly. But the logistics of the case do not support a homicidal attack soon after abduction, at least in the case of Abbie.

Reports that the crime was over quickly after it began do not make sense for a variety of reasons. Furthermore, assuming Abbie’s body was still warm when found, if she was murdered at 4 PM, how does she linger for 17 1/2 hours until the next day? Simple, it didn’t happen.

However, there is some brutal audio and perhaps video that Liberty recorded on her phone. Some of the audio was recorded right before the abduction, and there is 40 minutes after that. The audio right after the recording of the man saying, “Down the hill,” records the girls screaming.

Does that imply that the girls were attacked soon after being told to go down the hill? Yes.

There is a big question about the phone.  After 5:30 PM and for several hours, Liberty’s phone was pinging all over town which means it was not in Liberty’s possession. The question about the phone is whether or not it was recovered. The latest and best theory seems to be that Liberty’s phone was not recovered and all of the audio and video was taken from the Iphone Cloud. There is an option on an Iphone to immediately save all data to the Cloud.

If she threw the phone in the woods, it should have been found by now.

OK, so why was Liberty’s phone pinging all over town for several hours during the search? This would make sense if the phone was in the woods, but it appears now that the phone was not in the woods. So why did it ping all over town?

The killer had the two girls in his remote structure soon after they were abducted. If the structure was not far from the dump site, the phone could have been on Liberty’s body while she was in the structure as Logan’s property is near the forest where they were taken. Perhaps in the process of disrobing her, the killer found Liberty’s cellphone. Perhaps it was dead by this point.

Under this scenario, Unsub either disposed of or destroyed the phone after it died, and this is why it has never been found. Perhaps he smashed it to bits. Perhaps he discarded it in the garbage somewhere. Or even better yet, he threw it in the river. Conclusion: It now appears that the phone was indeed not recovered, but that is not as solid of a fact as we would like it to be. Source: People close to the search party, people close to the case.

Fallen tree on north side hiding spot for Unsub(resize & rotate)

A large tree down the slope from the north side of the bridge. We believe the killer may have hid here lying in wait for the girls to start across the bridge, at which point, he followed them from north to south and essentially trapped them on the south end of the bridge.

Cigars(RZ)

A pack of cigars maybe left by a hunter under the tree where the killer may have lay in wait for his victims. The cigars are not the killer’s. My investigator told me that the entire area seemed to have been gone over with a fine tooth comb by LE. It seems that LE was suspicious of this area on the north side just as we are. Perhaps their theory is the same as ours.

beginning of bridge on north side(resize & rotate)

The beginning of the bridge on the north side. We believe that the killer accessed the bridge from the north side like all hikers do and set off down the trail to the north side of the bridge, where he descended and lay in wait for his victims.

The south side of the river was roped off as a crime scene, not the north side. Yes, the tape was removed two days later, but so what? This is standard procedure in a park. But if the south side was not a homicide scene but instead some other sort of scene such as an abduction scene, it could have been gone over quickly, and there would be no reason to keep it roped off. The girls were not attacked much at the dump site, as the dump site was described as pristine. Conclusion: The best theory right now is that the south side was the scene of some scuffle probably as he was trying to tie them up and get them in his vehicle. The best evidence now suggests that the girls were killed in the barn across the street from Ron Logan’s property. Sources: LE, media reports, sleuths.

The FBI interviewed a man who had property on the south side of the creek. They asked about his gun(s), his vehicle(s), and whether there were any outbuildings. From this we can conclude that the FBI believes that a gun, a vehicle and an outbuilding were used in this crime.

In addition, the notion of the barn as kill site fits well into the very earliest statements from family members 1.5 hours before the media even reported the crime saying that the girls were found raped and killed in a cabin. Since the girls were found dumped in the forest, the rumor about being found in a cabin made no sense.

But now there is a way that we tie this all together. Sure, the cabin or structure played a serious role in the crime, but not as a dump site. Instead, the cabin (actually a barn) was the place where they were abused, raped and killed! So the Cabin Theory (actually a Barn Theory) makes a new appearance, this time making a lot more sense. Conclusion: The Cabin Theory is fact, except the kill site was a barn and not a cabin. As the cabin talk started up right away, this also implies that LE found the kill site very soon after they found the bodies. Sources: Family members, people close to the family, leaks from LE.

There is a rumor stating that LE says that Liberty could have escaped several times, but she chose to stay by her best friend’s side to the end. In real life, they were inseparable. That means that Libby is truly a hero for giving her life in order not to abandon her friend. And it makes this crime even more sad. Conclusion: It is probably true. It is hard to understand why LE would make up such a story, and LE would be the only people to know. Source: Person close to the family.

There is indeed a voice recording of Unsub saying, “Go down the hill.” The next thing you hear on the tape is the girls screaming. This is part of an audiotape heroically recorded by Libby by turning on the recorder on her phone as the girls were being abducted. It has also been implied, terrifyingly, that the audio is actually a recording of the rapes and murders. Conclusion: The four words are fact. From the behavior of LE, it does seem as if something quite terrible is on the rest of that audio. Source: People close to the family.

There is a rumor that says that there is not 6 minutes of video/audio but instead there is 40 minutes of video/audio! Someone posted this on a site that the families frequent, and no family members asked to take it down for being inaccurate, so there is something to it. I believe there is little more video, and most of that 40 minutes is audio. And I have heard that it’s ugly and nasty stuff, so terrifying that LE does not want to release it. Strong rumor.

Conclusion: Almost certainly true. Surely there is nasty stuff on that audio, and it makes sense that it would last 40 minutes and not 6 minutes. Furthermore, the person who said there was 40 minutes posted it on a site frequented by family members and none of them said it was false. And they would have spoken up if it were not true. Source: Posting on a website frequented by the families of the girls.

Monon bridge trail(resize)

The Monon High Bridge Trail before it gets to the north side of the bridge. The girls set off down this path on their fateful journey at 2 PM, 2-13.

There is talk of a car that can be barely seen in the lower left of the photo of Abbie on the bridge below the bridge. No one even knows if that is a car or not in that photo. Many people say they cannot make out a vehicle in the photo.

That road is a very little-used road that almost no one has even heard of, and it is quite hard to get to. My on the ground investigator was not able to find this road, but he is sure it is there. It appears to have been a road used by workers to maintain the bridge. A new rumor says that LE believes that the killer’s vehicle was parked at a trail head on the south side. Conclusion: Of course a car was used in this crime, and of course it was parked on the south side on a small road or truck trail that parallels the river. There is no other way this crime could have occurred. Source: Sleuths analyzing the photo of Libby on the bridge, people close to the family.

17270994_10202721686881519_1637152276_n

A possible vehicle can barely be seen circled in blue.

17274770_10202721695881744_974107941_n

The “vehicle” is very hard to make out in this photo, but I do see what appears to be a vehicle in that photo. At any rate, no one even knows if there is a vehicle in that photo or not. I think it is a vehicle, but that is not proven yet at all.

Man hiding and watching

Is that a man hiding and watching Abbie on the bridge? I have another photo taken recently and that black figure is simply not there.

Photo without man watching(rz)

A photo of the exact location of the “man in hiding” in the photo above taken days after the crime. Notice anything? No “man in hiding” anymore. Huh? If that was just some normal shadow effect, clearly it would have been seen there at all times. But here it is not there. I am starting to think that may be the killer hiding behind that tree near the north side of the bridge waiting for his victims.

Car with man circled

Another car photo with a possible man or human figure standing next to the car. The human figure is circled.

There is evidence from various statements from the family that Libby put up a huge fight. The condition of her body at the funeral adds weight to the notion that she fought back very hard and sustained many defensive wounds because she had many small wounds on her body and face. In addition there is a new rumor now that states that Abbie fought back so hard that her nails were shredded. However, I believe they are confused and it was really Libby whose nails were torn up.

Unsub may well have scratch marks if Libby fought like a wildcat, which it seems she did. It addition, the throat slitting attack on Libby was much more severe than on Abbie and it was Libby who was beaten to the point where she was nearly unrecognizable, not both girls. The horrendous beating and the vicious throat attack imply that the killer was enraged with Libby for fighting back so hard, so he attacked her viciously in response. Conclusion: This is certainly true, at least the part about her fighting back violently. We know this by the condition of her body at the funeral. Source: People at the funeral, common sense.

I believe the gun obviously holstered on the right under the jacket of Unsub was used to control the girls. He also got them to keep quiet with the gun. However, the gun was not used to shoot the girls either to kill or wound them. These girls have no gunshot wounds. Conclusion: Now that we know the cause of death, there is no way a gun was used in this crime. There has never been the slightest rumor that these girls were attacked with gunshots.  Source: Common sense, witness reports.

There is a rumor that both girls had their throats slit. This is a strong rumor. Funerals were open casket, and both girls had scarves covering their necks, more to cover something up than as clothing. This adds weight to the theory that their throats were slit.

There is a rumor that Liberty was nearly decapitated. A recent version of this rumor said she was decapitated. However, if so, I do not understand how Unsub dragged a headless body down that trail, presumably with a human head in his hand. Further, Liberty’s head was very much on her body at the funeral. It is hard to imagine a funeral director putting someone’s head back on. This is a strong rumor as I have now heard many versions of it and no rumors saying that it is false.

It appears that the the wound to Abbie’s throat was not a particularly grievous wound. In other words, if he was trying to kill her, he did a poor job of it. If Libby did survive for at least 3 and up to 8 hours after she was homicidally attacked, her throat must not have been cut too grievously because otherwise she would not have survived for so long afterwards.

Conclusion: Of course the girls had their throats cut and this was the cause of death at least in the case of Liberty no doubt and a contributing factor in the death of Abbie. The rumor that the attack on Liberty’s neck was particularly vicious seems to be well supported as it keeps coming up and no one has said it was not true. Obviously, if Abbie survived as long as she did, the attack on her neck was not particularly grievous. Sources: Family members, people close to LE, people at the funeral.

There is a rumor saying that both girls were beaten so badly in their faces that they were nearly unrecognizable. However the latest version of this rumor says that only Libby was given this treatment. Conclusion: The best conclusion seems to be that Libby was the one who was severely beaten in the face. If Abbie was beaten in the face at all, it was not nearly so badly.  Source: Source close to the family.

This offense was clearly sexually motivated, and it seems quite clear that sexual assault occurred in the course of the crime. The very first rumors from the family members said both girls had been raped. However, a new rumor says that neither girl was raped and instead both girls were sexually mutilated, which is in fact much worse than simply being raped which is bad enough. We can only imagine what sort of mutilation was involved here.

We are dealing with a real bad guy here like Ted Bundy or Jack the Ripper. He not only kills girls, but he likes to cut them up too. This is not your ordinary rapist-killer, however it is common in serial killer rape-murders that the females’ bodies are at times mutilated in some way or another,  so if our Unsub is a serial, then this sort of attack is right up his alley.

Further, I feel that the mutilation may well have been done with the stick that he impaled in Abbie’s stomach before he left. This is a theory of my on the ground investigator, and I think he may well be correct. Furthermore, it solves the DNA problem for the killer. If a stick was used, there will be no DNA other than oak or pine DNA.

Conclusion: Sadly this theory is probably correct at least as far as mutilation goes. The very first statements by family members before this was even reported in the media was that the girls were “raped and mutilated.” Statements that they were mutilated have continued since then, including one very recent statement. Sadly, this is quite probably what was done to these girls. The theory of using the stick to mutilate the girls is on much shakier ground as it is pure speculation by my fellow sleuth and me.  Sources: Family members, people close to LE, general rumors, sources close to family.

There is uncertain information about the state of the bodies when found. Early statements were that Abbie was nude and Liberty was clothed. But if both girls were sexually mutilated, there was no way that Liberty was clothed. This killer is not about to put clothes back on a dead girl after he kills her. Conclusion: The theory that best explains the facts is that both girls were found nude. Sources: Rumors, sources close to the family.

There is conflicting information about the DNA collected at the scene. One report said the DNA is back, but there is no match to any known person.

Another says that the DNA that came back is that of Ivan Brumbaugh, the man who found the bodies. However, it is mere tough DNA, and it is is so weak that it was not even found at first and was only found two weeks later. Further, Brumbaugh states that he touched the bodies when he found them. In addition, if Brumbaugh is the killer, I would expect that they would have something better than a tiny bit of touch DNA, which is much more suggestive of his story about touching the bodies when he found them than that he is the killer.

Conclusion: No one knows! It does appear that DNA is back. That much seems to be certain. Whether it matches no one or Brumbaugh, no one knows. Further, the only information on the Brumbaugh theory comes form a man who is certain that Brumbaugh is the killer and has made a video to that effect. He also says he was the one who turned in Brumbaugh and that he is going to get the reward. This man has a large stake in Brumbaugh being the killer, so he is not a very good source. Until we get corroboration on the Brumbaugh rumor, all we know is that DNA is back and it either matches no one or it matches the man who found the bodies.

Source: A good source in Delphi, LE, media reports, a video maker on Youtube who is making a serious claim that Brumbaugh is the killer.

There is a rumor that boot prints were found at the scene. These boots are thought to have been worn by Unsub. This would make sense, as LE had some boots in an evidence bag a few days after the killings. They innocuously said that the boots had nothing to do with the crime, but they were probably lying. They probably did not recover Unsub’s actual boots themselves. Why would Unsub discard his boots at the crime scene and walk away shoeless? Makes no sense. It is more likely that LE matched the boot prints to that type and size of boot, indicating that Unsub was wearing boots of that make and size at the time of the crime.

There is a new rumor that Indiana Packers in town was raided and a pair of boots were seized from the site. This rumor is hard to understand. Who if anyone owned the boots that they seized? Why was this man not arrested? Conclusion: Of course boot prints were found at the site. We know that for sure now. And the type of boot was surely the one shown in the evidence bag. Sources: LE, source in Delphi.

The girls’ clothing was found in the creek. This was no doubt an attempt by Unsub to destroy any DNA evidence. The clothes were probably from both girls and both were no doubt found nude. Conclusion: Certainly true as it was reported by as news reporter at the scene. Source: Statements from reporter at the scene, common sense.

There is an incredible rumor that victim Abigail Williams, age 13, was pregnant at the time of the attack. It is now known that she definitely had a boyfriend, who was 16 years old. He has been located, and we know his name. Conclusion: At the moment this is a weak rumor, but it does explain some other things such as the spearing attack. It has only been stated by one person and has not been corroborated, but there have also been no reports saying it is false. Source: A sleuth.

There is very gruesome rumor saying that Abbie’s body was found with a pointed branch driven into her stomach. In other words, Unsub stood over Abbie and plunged the stick into her belly, pinioning her like a shishkebab. If this is true, it is even more incredible for her to survive the attack and even to crawl around with a stick in her body. Conclusion: As bizarre as it sounds, this rumor is quite possibly true. It has been repeated by a resident who posted crime scene photos on his page and corroborated by those who saw his photos. Source: A source close to the family, a Delphi resident who posted crime scene photos on his site and others who viewed these photos.

Tying together both of the shocking rumors is the suggestion that Unsub knew that Abbie was pregnant, and the stick attack was an attempt to kill the fetus too. Although this makes sense, one wonders how he could have possibly known that she was pregnant given that she was not very far along. Look at Abbie in the bridge photo. Does she look pregnant in that photo? So how would Unsub discover that she was pregnant? When people are under the control of a potentially murderous person who is assaulting them with what looks like homicidal intent, a lot of victims make various pleas to their attacker(s) to please spare their lives.

These take the form of appeals such as, “Please, no, I have a wife and three kids!…No, spare me, I am the sole breadwinner for my family of five!,” etc. I am sure there are many more. Victims make all sorts of pleas and engage in various manipulations of the person assaulting them in an attempt to stay alive. Most people do not want to die and will try all sorts of desperate measures in an attempt to not be murdered.

Sometimes they work, the attacker has a change of heart and decides to spare one or more victims. If Abbie pleaded with Unsub that he would be killing not just her but another potential life, then Unsub would have learned of her pregnancy. Conclusion: No one knows if the rumor that Abbie was pregnant are even true, but the stick rumor surely is. At any rate, there is no evidence tying the stick attack in with the possible pregnancy other than a speculated theory. This was merely the conclusion of a fellow sleuth, who is actually very good. And she is a woman too. Source: Speculation by me and a fellow sleuth.

Ron Logan, the poor soul whose land the bodies were found on, is still the source of much speculation that he is the murderer. There are websites where all they do is go over and over this man as a suspect. Quite a few people still believe he is the killer. I do not believe that Ron Logan is the killer, nor do I believe that he had anything to do with this crime. However, LE seems to think he may know more about this crime than he is letting on. This was apparently behind the apparent efforts to sweat him out by throwing him in jail for a probation violation for violating his drunk driving probation.

He was supposed to neither drink nor drive and he did both on the day of the killings. Logan did indeed go to the dump and many people think he was disposing of evidence there. However, he went there at 11:30 AM, so he could not possibly have been disposing of evidence as this was 3.5 hours before the girls were even abducted. Instead, Logan was in Lafayette 25 miles away buying tropical fish, but mostly drinking in a bar somewhere, probably some “old man’s tavern.” He is said to have been drinking beer. He lied about this to LE in order to cover up his probation violation, and LE was not happy that he lied to them.

However, Logan’s wife, who has a low opinion of him, states emphatically that he is innocent of this crime and that there are time-stamped photos of him, probably taken by surveillance cameras. These time-stamped photos cover the period of the abduction, so he could not have done this crime. Logan returned at 5:30 PM from Lafayette, where searchers asked for permission to search his land, which was granted.

One thing that kept Logan’s name on people’s tongue is that his property was thoroughly searched once and maybe even twice. They are even said to have searched the interior of his home in addition to his outbuildings. His car was also searched and it was even impounded for a while. The second search of Logan’s land certainly set tongues wagging ferociously.

However, my investigator has now determined that the media was quite wrong about this search. The media said Logan’s land was being searched, but the main search was of the Mears property across the street and of course the barn. The simply mistook the Mears’ land for Logan’s land. Logan’s property may well have been searched also, but the focus was clearly on the Mears property.

Conclusion: Of course Logan is innocent. The dump accusation is false and there is hard evidence that he was in Lafayette at the time of the abductions. His land was probably searched because this poor fellow had the misfortune of having two dead girls dumped on his land.  The much-ballyhooed second search of Logan’s land was falsely reported. It was actually the Mears property being primarily searched, not Logan’s. Almost everything accusatory you hear about Ron Logan regarding this crime is surely false. I really wish everyone would lay off this poor soul.

Probation officer report for Ron Logan

The entirety of LE’s case against Logan. People made much of this paper because it says he went to the dump. This apparently proved that he was disposing of articles after killing the girls. But he went to the dump at 11:30 AM, 3.5 hours before the girls were abducted, so unless Logan can time travel to the past, he could not have been disposing of murder items at the dump as the homicide or even abduction had not even taken place yet!

Ron Logan is indeed a drunk and a probation violator and I have learned that he has a shady past. 5-10 years ago, he had a girlfriend who he used to beat up on a regular basis. One time perhaps 7-8 years ago, he nearly beat this poor woman to death. He is also said to be quite strange sexually and he has freaked out a number of local woman with his sexual interests. He is also said to be very much into sex, but that can be said about millions of male Americans and quite a few females too.

Conclusion: Drunk, yes. Probation violator, yes. The other accusations are quite disturbing but he has never shown an abnormal interest in young girls such as pubescent teenage girls. I believe that Logan is a kinky drunk who likes to slap his women around. That’s not exactly optimal, but there are probably millions of men like this in the US. But there is huge difference with having the dubious qualities above and being a depraved rapist-mutilator-murderer of young teenage girls.

In addition to the rest of the evidence, Logan simply does not have it in him to do this crime in my opinion. His ex wife, who is not a Ron Logan fan at all, says that whatever else Ron is, he is not a murderer as she feels he is not capable of it. The social media circus around this man is most unsavory if not outright wrong. It’s time to pack up the Ron Logan theory and take it out to the dump where it belongs. Sources: A Delphi local who knew the ex girlfriend very well, Logan’s ex-wife.

There is a rumor saying that the case against Ron Logan is completely corrupt and is being led by a man who could care less if Logan did these crimes or not. All this man wants is to see Logan destroyed. This man is another local with whom Logan had a falling out. The man has money and has long wanted to buy Logan’s 40 acres, however, Logan was never willing to sell. Logan’s property is said to be choice land with waterfalls, etc.

This man figures if he can get Logan prosecuted for murder or at least have his life ruined by these allegations, then at some point, Logan will sell his land, possibly to pay his legal bills. This man figures that ruining Ron Logan will allow this man to somehow acquire Logan’s property. Conclusion: Weak rumor only from one source, which seems to be Ron Logan’s attorney. Impossible to prove until we get evidence but it is interesting. Source: Source close to the families.

Three other posts in this series:

Updated March 9: Profile of the Evansdale-Delphi Serial Killer

The Case for Unsub Involvement in Both the Delphi and Evansdale Double Murders

The Case for Linking the Delphi Murders with the Evansdale Murders

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