Delphi Murders: Possible Motives


I am getting tired of saying this over and over, but most of the material below is made up of rumors and my own opinions and theories. None of that is represented as fact. Furthermore, I am not using rumors as reliable sources as has been alleged. I never said they were reliable sources. How reliable is a rumor? That’s for you to determine, but in general a rumor is not considered to be a reliable source, and they are not treated as such below. 

The only thing that is represented as fact are statements sourced from LE or the media. If you have issues with rumors, theories, opinions. etc., just quit reading right now and save yourself the heartache. 


I thought I made this one thing perfectly clear as Richard Nixon used to say:

I have no sources whatsoever among the families of the girls.

I have no sources whatsoever in LE, local or otherwise. 

There ya go.

What I do have is sources close to the families. These people generally live in Delphi and the surrounding region. So that makes my rumors even more hearsay. I’m not even talking to the families. I am talking to people who talk to the families!

Of course I have no LE sources. I thought I made that clear. Never have. Yes, I have talked to some of them, but of course they didn’t tell me a thing. A couple of times they told me that a certain person was a POI or that a certain person had been cleared with an airtight alibi. I suppose they don’t mind giving out that information. But other than that, they don’t tell me jack. It’s hard enough to even get them to call you back. I think if I asked them if my name was Robert Lindsay, they would say, “I am sorry, but I cannot comment on matters relating to an ongoing investigation.” That’s how bad it is.

So what do I have? Once again, I have sources who are close to LE. They get their information from LE, then they talk to me. So once again this is even more hearsay, as I am not even talking to LE but to the people who are talking to LE.

I really wish people would quit claiming I have LE or family sources. I just don’t. If you think I have these sources, just quit reading my stuff right now and go away. You will not be missed!

NOTE TO COMMENTERS 3: The lies never end. The latest is “Lindsay takes other people’s theories and claims they are his own.” Of course I don’t. This website is nothing but a compendium of rumors from all over the Net regarding this crime. I go through the rumors and try to rank them on a scale of weak to strong. I compare them against other rumors to see which one is better. All sorts of theories have been flying around since day one. I report those too.

The theories are really just more rumors. I’d say the overwhelming majority of theories presented here were thought up by other people. I find most of my theories on other sites about this crime. That’s how it works, you know. You get theories about the crime from others. Yes, you use your own theories and you use other people’s theories. I really do not have time to down through the list of theories and say where I got them from. I have come up with a few of my own, but even with those, I guess someone else thought of them first. Also a lot of the theories here are also the result of constant brainstorming I do with my fellow sleuths.

I will try to sketch out the possible motives for the Delphi killings based on my latest theory. This theory explains the facts of the case better than any I have seen thus far. Now that does not mean it is true. This theory may be well be completely false as all of the other theories have been so far. But it’s worth looking into.

My new theory of this case comes from two middle aged local women who have done more research into this case than anyone I know. So these are not my theories. They are someone else’s. Nevertheless, I think they bear looking into. I have no idea if there is anything to this theory or not, but we need to look at all theories. That’s what real detectives do.

According to this theory, the key to this whole case is the pregnancy of Abbie Williams. Once you start to figure that out, you can start to figure out the case.

A strong rumor which I have heard exclusively from married women with children in and around Delphi is that Abbie Williams was pregnant. A recent elaboration of the rumor said that she was found to be pregnant on autopsy and the baby was determined to be that of Logan Holder, her 16 year old boyfriend. I would like to point out that this rumor derives not from me but from three women age 35-55, all living in Delphi or nearby, and all of whom are married with children. At least one woman is extremely conservative. If you have concerns with the reporting that Abbie was pregnant, please take it up with these women.

Like a sordid B movie, this whole case may revolve around the pregnancy of a very young teenage girl. Unless she had an abortion, her boyfriend, a 16 year old boy named Jason Holder, was looking at becoming a father at age 16 and a lifetime of child support.

Abbie may have refused to get an abortion. This may have become a serious problem. A problem that needed to be eliminated to preserve the reputation, freedom and finances of a young man and his family.

Now if you are reading this and thinking that the boy having sex with these two girls was the murderer of the girls, you would be wrong. I believe he did not participated in this crime. But other people may have, for the motive listed above.

Another possible motive is Satanism and the occult. The Satanism/occult theory is once again from the local women I know. I have no idea how accurate it is. I am just throwing it out there as a possible motive in the case, but I have no idea whether it was a motive at all here.

There is an active occult circle in Carroll County which has been there for decades. If you read up on this case, you will see locals talking about this occult circle and the many strange goings-on centering around them over the years. Strange things written on buildings, odd gatherings by moonlight in the forest – it’s all so strange and creepy. This Satanic circle is active to this day.

The way it ties into this crime is three of the leading male suspects in this crime, age 45 and 55, were reportedly active members of this circle and practicing Satanists. I can verify that at least two of these men, one age 46 and the other 55, are absolutely practicing Satanists. This can easily be determined by looking at their Facebook pages.

From here we may glean the numbers associated with this case like 13 and 32 and the strange killing of Abigail Williams, a 13 year old girl with the same name as a woman who may be one of the Satanists’ worst enemies. This woman is Abigail Williams, the woman who turned in many other women as witches in Salem resulting in the deaths of many of these women who were convicted of witchcraft. Since the Satanists could not get at the original Abigail Williams, perhaps they decided to kill her namesake to get at their enemy that way, 350 years later. I know it sounds strange, but people who are way off into Satanism are not exactly normal people.

However, I do think the occult angle, if it exists at all, is a secondary motive. These girls were killed for reasons centering around the sex life of one girl and the problems that resulted from that. The men were planning to kill them for that reason. Perhaps they thought that as long as they were going to commit a homicide anyway, they may as well make it a Satanic sacrifice to get that extra kick.

  • 13: The murder was committed on the 13th. Unlucky number, the worst unlucky number of them all. Occult significance.
  • 32: Add the numbers of the date of the killing together and you get 32. 32 is a very important number among Satanists. What it means is hard to ascertain, but one source I found said it represented Sacrifice, possibly a Day of Sacrifice.
  • Abigail Williams: 13 year old murder victim and namesake of a woman who may have been one of the Satanists’ worst enemies.
  • Crime scene photos: A Delphi resident obtained crime scene photos and posted them on his website for a short time. They were seen by a number of people who all independently corroborated what they saw. The website owner said that not only did Abbie have a stake in her stomach, implying an attempt to kill a fetus, but that the bodies were posed in an odd way that made him think this was an occult or Satanic killing.

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Filed under Crime, Girls, Jailbait, Law enforcement, Midwest, Regional, Sex, USA

493 responses to “Delphi Murders: Possible Motives

  1. VGLante

    You had me until the mention of the occult. It may be true, but I can tell you as member of the community, that entire aspect of this theory would take a backseat to the overly strong Christian-based, judgemental overseeing or viewing of the prior thought of teenage pregnancy and possible underage sex with a minor. I could see this being disguised as an occult thing or even as an act taken too far by a couple of “good ol’ boys”, I just don’t see the possible occult tie as being the motive. Any backwoods rituals going on here are more likely tied to extremely well hidden “ordinances” of bigotry, if any, justified by a deep rooted, maybe twisted, Christian protocol.

    I do think the possible pregnancy and any other semi-inappropriate sexual activity could be the hierarchal and supreme motivation for the killings…maybe the only motivation that could make sense.

    This is an extreme crime of passion wrapped deeply in the heart of the local community. No one else could possibly navigate this trail of events otherwise…believe me!!

  2. VGLante

    How about this…

    Abby is pregnant by a 16 year old and Libby is somewhat involved sexually with a young adult man. Following unsatisfied pleas for an abortion by the boy, other adults get involved with a plan to “have a talk” with the girls, unknowingly to the girls. The adults, in representation of the boy and the young man, nabb the girls at the bridge, take them for ride to the barn where the “fear of God” is put to them and a possible make-shift farm-boy abortion begins to commence (mutilation)….Libby throws an enormous fit, gets knocked around, she threatens to tell and out of anger they try to shut her up (strangulation). The abortion takes place under extreme distress ending in a mess that needs to be gone. Under the dark of the night Ron Logan’s place is close, they get rid of the bodies, later returning out of fear of being caught by the search party and they try to cover up the bodies even more…bam, Abbie is still barely alive and she is finished off.

    No satanic rituals, just plain rural fixes to a growing issue that got way out of hand and is now seemingly being covered up with the dismissal of the heavy hitter LE/FBI etc. My guess is they know who and how, they are just trying to make the case evidence fail proof in court. Maybe Logan knows more, but would not cooperate or prefers to stay out of it. Clearly if the barn were used, the murderers knew the property was vacant and that access to Ron’s property was doable. This case is just not local…it is in the heart of the community…just like a bad, bad movie!!

    This makes sense and fits the protocol of a strong Christian based rural community like ours here in Delphi. There is no cover up, no satanism,…and there are no outsiders.

    Great job Robert….I think you have nailed it!!

  3. Kim

    While I agree w/VGLante that the satanist angle is suspect (do people still do that in 2017??), I also question whether a 13yo girl was pregnant here. Age of menarche may allow for that but without some sort of verification I’m not sure I buy that as girls that age typically just aren’t that fertile (and yes, I do know 13yo who have become pregnant) but I’m not sure at all that was the case here. These girls were interested in sports and school, with no evidence presented that they had significant dating lives. I do think their parents would know the answers to this and be screaming to LE for an arrest in that case.

    Also, if that rumor was true it would provide even MORE evidence (DNA, suspect connections, etc.) for LE to follow and there would be even LESS of an excuse for them not to have made an arrest here!

  4. VGLante

    If a pregnancy was in fact the case, it would explain a whole lot….the seemingly local trail of evidence, the mutilation, the strangulation, and even the spearing. Also, in knowing the actions of young teenage girls and typical overly advancing young men, I see it as entirely possible for the girls to get in too deep. It could be “kids play” to date rape or “no means no”. These things happen and people do not act rational…including parents and/or adult support systems.

    With the information known or estimated at this point, it seems highly likely that this type of motive could be the case…the entire case. No drugs, no traveling serial killers, no horny bridge under-dwellers, and no occult séances…just plain small town American real world issues and circumstances. Imho

    I am very sorry that such a horrible tragedy came about for these families and anyone found guilty of a crime of this nature should be held fully accountable!!

    • Ben Franklin

      If the pregnancy rumor turns out to be true… What it wasn’t the 16 y/o but an older man that doesn’t want this dna of the true baby’s father getting out .. It’s a situation were this person would lose everything if this info got out.. Police officer, pastor, firefighter, small town authority…

      Maybe a rape already happened prior, then she got pregnant and this person(s) are trying in desperation in the sickest way possible to get rid of it all.. And along with your post info… New girls are susceptible to new dangers but trying to fit in new places..

  5. PaulC

    Does your theory involve a local pizza place? I’m guessing one of the family’s involved last name begins with S. How reliable do you believe the rumors are? I’ve not seen any where that she was pregnant, or had a boyfriend. But if true, it’s a great angle, especially of the father was an adult. Do you know that the people involved are satanists? Any indications on social media? News articles? Is their anything public or organized in the area regarding satanic practice?

    • Does your theory involve a local pizza place?

      Could be… 😉

      I’m guessing one of the family’s involved last name begins with S.

      Quite possibly. 😉

      How reliable do you believe the rumors are?

      Good, this is the local dirt that is floating around Delphi. Most has been uncovered by a local woman who has been investigating this mess deeply.

      I’ve not seen any where that she was pregnant, or had a boyfriend.

      The pregnant rumor was an early rumor from a very good source. It is now being amplified. And we know the name of the boy who impregnated her. It’s been known for some time now that she had a boyfriend, a 16 year old boy.

      Do you know that the people involved are satanists?

      This is the local dirt.

      Is their anything public or organized in the area regarding satanic practice?

      There have been frightening rumors going on about this group and occult activity in this area for decades now. A lot of people are afraid of these occultists.

      • Jen

        Interesting…Abbie’s Facebook profile says she was employed at two different pizza places in Delphi. Maybe you already discussed this and I missed it but that doesn’t seem like it could be a coincidence.

    • Mophebius

      If this all ends of being over a pregnancy or even the rumor of a pregnancy, that would be simply stunning to me. I’ll admit that It’s an entirely plausible scenario. If this were true it would help tidy up the case in many respects. There would obviously be no connection to the cousins in Iowa. Likely it would also put to bed the notion of a serial killer Imo. Very interesting!

  6. Mer

    The satanic thing is a beard

  7. Kit

    Young girl’s sex drives come on like a ton of bricks, and they deal with this by having sex with boys and sometimes men!? Hardly! IF young girls at that age were having sex, it would be because they liked the boy…and HE wanted to have sex.
    If you cannot confirm Abby was pregnant, then you are possibly slandering the reputation of a young murder victim by the means of town gossip.

    • The girls are dead. You cannot slander a dead person.

      I gather you are female. The most bizarre thing is that it is females who should know better who most ferociously deny the facts about the sexuality of teenage girls. It’s pretty sad that I, a 59 year old man, know a Hell of a lot more about teenage girl sexuality than you. I was a teenage boy myself you know, and I continued dating these girls until age 21. I haven’t touched one since, but I have talked with a few of them, enough to know I am right.

      I did a quick and dirty survey looking for age for various developmental features nowadays like pubic hair onset, sex drive onset and age at menarche. In the course, masturbation habits were also discovered. Sources were forum posts by girls that age asking each other about these things.

      I had ~50 subjects.Sex drive and menarche now come on at age 13 in the overwhelming majority of girls. Pubic hair onset is age 12. Breast onset is probably two years earlier at age 10.

      My survey found that ~70% of 13 year old girls are masturbating to orgasm every day or almost every day. And quite a few others are doing on a frequent basis. 0% of them are not masturbating to orgasm.

      It’s either early sexualization or this new generation of females is totally pornified.

      Now that is just a quick and dirty Internet survey, but a formal study would not come up with different findings.

      My best friends are women. Of course, they tell me everything. A couple have told me that they were crazy horny as young teenage girls.

      All the data I come across shows me that 13 and 14 year old girls are as horny as a woman. Nowadays most are dealing with it by masturbation, but of course if they have a woman’s sex drive, some will seek out sex with boys and even men. It’s a very well known fact that some 13 year old girls seek out sex with other teenage boys. They do this on their own initiative and are quite willing.

      And some seek out sex with adult men, usually young men. It’s not uncommon for them to blatantly and openly seduce these men. In fact, I have had girls this age try to blatantly and openly proposition me as a young man. I taught school and I remember 13 year old girls propositioning me right in front of the whole class. I didn’t act on it, but I think that tells you something.

      That you women don’t even understand your own gender is pretty pitiful. Plus you are apparently amnesic about when you were teenagers yourselves.

      • Kit

        You can’t slander a dead person? You’re certainly throwing mud at their reputation if you are not correct in the pregnancy. OMG a online survey is guiding your conclusions about young girls? I have the best experience there is…I was one! Your study is bullshit. Maybe factor in how many were honest on your “online” survey…and how many answered wildly just because they thought it was funny.

        At 13-14 young girls are boy crazy, yes. They want the boyfriend, the fairytale prince they read about. They are far from sexually driven. However, young boys are very sexually driven. I don’t know where you taught that a 13 yr old propositioned you, but I’d consider why that young girl is so sexual at such a young age. I would even consider they may have been molested at home.

        • You’re certainly throwing mud at their reputation if you are not correct in the pregnancy.

          You cannot damage the reputation of a dead person, sorry. Read libel law.

          OMG a online survey is guiding your conclusions about young girls?

          These were not online surveys. They were just web forums where teenage girls were asking each other questions like this in a sort of a survey form. Then there would be ~20 girls answering listing their answers to each question.

          I have the best experience there is…I was one!

          Here we see the usual female lunacy I have been dealing with ever since I started discussing this. Adult women who don’t even know what it’s like to be a teenage girl! Pathetic!

          Your study is bullshit.

          It’s not a study. It’s just a rough survey of forums where teenage girls were asking each other these questions.

          But on the other hand…You got any better data?

          Maybe factor in how many were honest on your “online” survey…

          They all were. These were forums for teenage girls and they were answering the questions straight up honestly from what I could tell. Anyway it’s not my survey. These were questions being posed by teenage girls to one another on their forums. I was just reading and tallying.

          and how many answered wildly just because they thought it was funny.

          It was not my survey or study. These were questions they were asking each other. The whole affair was 100% serious and I didn’t get any vibes of anyone screwing around or making a joke of it.

          But once again, got any better data?

          They are far from sexually driven.

          Well, I got 70% of 13 year old girls are masturbating to orgasm every single day. Now look, I was pretty shocked myself. And I was not even looking for that data. I just wanted developmental milestones like pubic hair onset, sex drive onset, menarche onset.

          Now when I was younger, it did not seem like teenage girls were nearly as horny as they are now. But they were still damn horny. As a teenage boy and very young man, I had sex with 14 years old girls who were as nuts, insatiable and cumdrunk as any grown woman.

          Once again we see that when it comes to the subject of the sexuality of teenage girls, most adult females are stark raving batshit nuts.

          These girls have bodies and minds of their own. You adult women don’t live in these girls’ bodies or control their minds, thank God. These girls will think and do and feel whatever they want no matter what the delusions of adult women are.

          It’s really pathetic that we can’t study this matter further. It’s a matter of human biology and even medicine, in particular pediatrics. Obviously this is important data for human knowledge. It is pretty pitiful that the hysteria of grown women is preventing us from doing basic medical and psychological research in this matter which is of utmost importance to society.

          Furthermore, the sexuality of teenage girls is strong enough that acting on it seems to cause a lot of problems. I do not mean masturbation, which actually ought to be encouraged if their mothers had sense rather than mush for brains.

          You have girls with adult sex drives and the minds of, well, children. A recipe for disaster. Masturbation is a great way to take care of that drive without having to deal with a child-minded human getting involved in sexual activity, a matter requiring great maturity.

          PS I am banning your ass, honey.

          HAVE A NICE DAY!

        • VGLante

          I have 6 children, all 13 and above thru age 28….they are all horny and both of our daughters started menstration by the age of 12. These girls have gone to school with these same girls who were killed. As far as masterbation, I would never ask, but totally realize it is a reality…even amongst our young Christian children. Yes, the boys are more likely to be sexual instigators outwardly, but the girls have a way of getting their points across and yes have hormonal spikes…they are all horny…it’s Mother Nature.

          Teenage pregnancy is tough to deal with it…I am a survivor….but it is not life threatening or ending. In this case, it it were to be true, the motive and evidence is clear.

          As far as the satanic thing….NOPE. There may be an unground anti-racial movement…the whole satanist, cultistic thing is what today would be better described as teenage rage, another form of hormonal imbalance gone wrong.

          This case is clearly a small town situation gotten out of hand….if Abbie was truly pregnant. People want drama and something to talk about…this in itself is a product of an unsatisfied social need in today’s society. People don’t go to Nascar events to see a race, they go for the wrecks. In this case, people aren’t satisfied knowing the truth….they want more, a story.

          The sad thing about this case is that the TRUTH is really, really bad…it’s local, its most likely a person at the center of our community, and most likely a group of young people are involved. It’s gruesome and it’s real…that’s more than enough people. We do not need more drama!!

        • Sun

          VGLante, when you say it’s most likely a person at the center of your community, what do you mean? Do you have a specific person in mind?

        • PaulC

          I have a young daughter and I’m pretty sure that she will not go through puberty or be interested in boys until her mid 30’s.

        • VGLante

          Through the latest developments in this case, I believe we all have a couple people in mind. Personally, I have always thought it was completely local and that the motive was very personal. If it turns out Abbie were truly pregnant, I am quite certain there will be a shake up. At the same time, assuming LE have it close to nailed down, it makes total sense that they are trying to put together a slam dunk case. With minutes of recording and autopsy results…they know what this thing is about or at least very close. I think it is known locally who the bridge guy could be according to this theory of pregnancy and if it’s true, then yes it’s very central to our community. Time will tell…I feel much better about the case knowing what we have learned here…it makes sense. Thanks Robert!!

      • Scout

        70% of 50 subjects in a quick a d dirty internet survey, w/o using empirical research methodology, does not mean you can make the types of generalizations about 13-14 year old girls in which you are. And it is not statistically sound to say that a formal research would draw the same conclusions. In fact there are so many variables one needs to control for, as well as a control sample. Did you account for possible sexual abuse, molestation in you small sample size? If not, then your informal “research” is inconclusive. Perhaps the 13 year old girls that propositioned you as a teacher, as inappropriate as that is, should have send off a different alarm.

        On a different note, I have read every single word from you and commentators posting on your blogs. I sincerely appreciate the work you are doing as well as the healthy debate among a group of strangers across the nation, whom are coming together to try and make sense of this brutal and heinous crime. This forum helps us process this tragedy, as well as try to identify the killer(s). So thank you.

        • I realize the limits of this quick and dirty study, but my rejoinder would be, “Got any better data?” Also I looked at several forums and I was stunned at how uniform the findings were.

          We have to consider that we are in a new era now. As a teeange boy and young man, it did not seem like teenage girls were as horny as they are now. Girls and women my age never discussed even masturbating, and I can’t remember one who admitted that she did it. That included girlfriends!

          Around 2000 and in the 20 years since, almost every single adult woman I know mastarbates, usually to orgasm, and often on a very regular basis. Every day, 10 times a week or even multiple times a day is not uncommon. My best friends are women. They tell me EVERYTHING. And they are masturbating like crazy.

          People are talking a lot about early sexualization. There is the role of online porn. There is discussion of young women nowadays being “totally pornified.” Teenage girls are growing up exposed to Internet porn and my information is that most of them are watching it at times.

          Can we consider that early sexualization and perhaps early exposure to online porn may be driving increasing sexualization of young teenage girls?

          Don’t you think we ought to know numbers like these? If this many 13 year old girls are masturbating to orgasm nearly every day, don’t you think their mothers should talk to them about this and related sexual issues. It’s a good outlet for a human with an adult drive and a child’s brain.

          What’s the point in not studying this? What’s the point in not talking about it? You women can keep brushing this under the rug forever and it will keep crawling back out again.

          Thanks once again Scout, and thanks for your work in mental health. I work in the field too, but I do not deal with molestation victims or anything like that. In fact, my work is all around a certain DSM disorder.

        • Sun

          What if it’s 30% and not 70%?

          Let’s assume zero percent. She didn’t want to actually have intercourse, and we can prove that no 13-year old in the history of the world ever has. She may have been raped by her boyfriend. Not uncommon, and not unusual for such a girl to be too ashamed to tell anyone, including her own mother. There’s another motive for killing her.

          Unless we think it is impossible that she was pregnant and that someone else was not happy about it, we’re going down rabbit holes.

  8. Scout

    I am a licensed mental health therapist for about 20 years and certified in trauma since 2005. Most of my clients are victims; whether from childhood sexual, physical, psychological abuse, abandonment issues, adult trauma, etc. You name it and I have most likely worked with it. (Exception is refugees) One former client had “associations” w a serial killer. I had to a lot of research on the topic, and have researched violent sex offenders, child molesters, etc. Going on 20+years. My background training is actually in Human development (cradle to grave). I send my deepest condolences to the surviving family members. I share this info to help give folks a better understanding of this crime from a clinical perspective.

    With all due respect and sensitivity to the family, the community and anyone else victimized by this crime: I want to state a few clinical, research based facts here.

    Regarding the comments about the sex drive of the victims: bessel van der kolk is a Harvard psychiatrist specializing in trauma research for 30+ years. He cites research which supports the neurobiology of traumatic processes and the developing female child. It has been discovered that if a female child was molested at any age before the age of 12, by the time they reach the age of 12, they have 5 times as much of the sexual hormones contributing to their “sex drive”. What that translates into is a hyper sex drive raging through their body at the time puberty, with age appropriate cognitive and social skills to manage the accelerated, immensely intense biological drive that their non-abused peer counterparts do not have to manage. Given the experience of being taught at an early age to be sexual under abusive and power imbalances, the result is usually promiscuity, being further victimized by sexual predators, very poor boundaries, believing they do not have the right to say no, succumbing to peers with their own sexual drives, eating issues and a whole host of symptoms. Any time I hear of an adolescent pregnancy, I am inclined to look deeper than their overactive sex drive.

    I obviously have no knowledge of either girl having past histories of being sexually abused. Or any other psychological factor contributing to their premature sexual behavior. It is unfortunately all too common for under age teens to be sexual, and our culture, advertising, sexualized messages, body image messages pushes teenagers to want to fit in and belong in their peer groups. Having written that, it is possible these girls have been victimized sometime in their past, long time ago, and the trauma was just now catching up with them in a neurobiological way. If they had the sexual drives equal to that of a grown woman, it did not come naturally as part of the development, sexually or, morally.

    The committee for Dsm V has removed the multiaxial system, and there is no longer an Axis II personality disorder section. The disorders have been absorbed into various mental health categories. So forgive me when I still make mention of Anti Social Personality Disorder (ASPD) as a clinical diagnosis. The Positron Emission Tomography (PET) scans of the brain activity in a ASPD versus a normally developed brain is fascinating. The areas of the brains of both groups show that if the task being studied has to do with mathematical computations, the same area of the brain is active in both groups. However, if the task is one involving a moral decision, for regular subjects, the area of the brain lights up the empathic reasoning section where empathy, compassion, forgiveness, gratitude, and remorse “lives”. For the ASPD subjects, the area of the brain lit up is the mathematical computation area. This means that there not any neurological connections to that morality part of the brain. Hence, everything stems from a problem to be solved. ASPD people know right from wrong, but they are incapable of feeling any empathy or compassion for anyone. Yet they know how to manipulate almost everyone else because of their capacity to feel empathy, guilt, sympathy, etc.

    Furthermore, they are very good at playing a role. They can play whatever role is necessary to get the “job done” or to obtain their desires. They do experience other emotions such as anger, rage, lust, pleasure, etc, as there are multiple emotional centers in the brain. And they can be motivated by a lot factors, greed, sex,power, control, their carefully built reputations, etc. If its a problem, they will find a solution no matter how immoral or gruesome.
    Others have experience ASPD people in a variety of ways. Some find them charming and charismatic, others find them manipulative, friendly and helpful, rage filled and angry. So one ASPD person can be perceived differently in different settings, because the person plays whatever role is necessary to get him/her the desired outcome.

    I have other research piece to add but I am short on time. Will continue this psycheducational piece in a few. Hope this is helpful in preparation of Robert’ s upcoming theory. We all want to understand and have justice enforced. Trying to understand evil is complex and unfathomable to most of us.

  9. Jimmy Conway

    rumor has it that S, senior was staying with RL after a fight with his wife. It isn’t clear if he was there at the time of the crime but his FB page indicates a fight with wife around then.

    • Would this be Marvin S. or Mark S.?

      • Jimmy Conway would not.
        I choose not to name names because like most else in this case it is rumors and innuendo..but the first letter of his name is B and if you trace the lineage you will see the connection.

        • Kim

          Jimmy, was it Brumbaugh?

        • Jimmy Conway

          No Kim it was not…Robert has the info

        • VGLante

          This is like jeopardy….give me 2ts and I’d like to buy a vowel…give me an E Pat

        • Carrienations

          Jimmy, initials are B.S.? Who is rumored to have been fighting with his wife? B or M?

          Great theory, Robert. I think you are onto something for sure. I am skeptical about a satanic angle but the other stuff you have posted is the best theory I’ve heard so far. Keep this stuff coming. I have a feeling it’s all gonna break soon.

        • Mer

          I think 2 Ts and an E would be in one name, but not BG’s

        • Kim

          Actually reminds me more of the game of Clue. You know… Colonel Mustard or Scarlett in the library with a candlestick?

          ‘M now operating under the assumption that the FBI/local LE figured out who did this and are trying to ensure the case and get confession(s) so that the families will be spared a trial detailing what was done to these poor girls.

        • Carrie, B was fighting with wife or gf and was actually staying at Ron Logan’s place at the time this crime occurred. That places him right in the vicinity of this crime the night before it happened and probably even the morning of the crime. And it enables him to know that Ron would be out all afternoon.

          Carrie if you like this site, why don’t you donate? The last batch is pretty much spent or soon will be for car repairs mostly, but I still need $95 to fix my air conditioning. I am boiling up here. It sucks.



      • Dorje

        I noticed a certain person mentioned is pictured with a cane. I read a number of people say BG walks with a limp. Any truth to that?

  10. aaron

    Some keep saying there was rumor an original pic of BG with another person in pic. In one of the pics you see what looks to be a purple “item” on left side. Some say its a coat of another person. Maybe there is a young person with BG and LE cut out of pic because him being a minor? Just a thought.
    Also, maybe that’s why girls didn’t panic right away since they knew the boy?
    But then I go back to wondering why Libby would text someone saying a man was following them (if that is true she did).
    Rob, when you brought up rumor of her being pregnant a couple weeks ago, I wondered this also. The pregnancy could ruin someone’s life and they were trying to make the situation go away.

    • Lotus

      Please post this picture or a link to it.

      There have been many photoshopped creations made by people wanting to compare BG with others. Everyone is trying to help find this killer.

    • Mer

      That refers to one of the original BG pics. In the photo wear the ‘fanny pack’ can be clearly seen, you can see a purple or dark image at the far left hand of the photo. That is the inner lining of Abby’s jacket.

      • Lotus

        I think this is simply confusion caused by the framing app that this TV station uses. It looks like there is more to the picture, but that framing ias actually a close-up of the photo, blurred. It was misleading for this TV station to use this technique — obviously, you and others were misled by it. There is no one else in the photo and the purple at the edge is simply a blow-up of the main pic blurred.

        • Mer

          I am not referring to the photo altered by WTHR. They have framed the image to turn a portrait view into a landscape view. They have not altered the original image, and Abby’s jacket lining is shown in one of the photos. I think Robert’s montage of the photos is the best way to view the pics of Unsub anywhere. Nice work, Robert.

      • Bob

        Can you post the pic? I have looked at several and cannot find what you are referring to.

        • Mer

          Libby took a video of Unsub. LE released two still images from that video,and recently a third. Libby took this video from the last platform near the SE end of the bridge. She was pretending to take Abby’s photo, but was instead taking a video the man approaching them. He is about eighty feet away from her. Abby was very close to Unsub when the video was taken, and you can see her jacket-the lining-in one of the photos. Look at one of Robert’s updates from earlier. Look for the image where he alternates the two known photos of Unsub. In one of the pics you can see Abby’s jacket at the left side of the photo. LE has zoomed in to provide a closer view of Unsub, and to remove Abby from the photo. I think the actual video may include the initial encounter between Abby and Unsub.

        • Lotus

          Could you please post a link to this? I have only ever seen 2 photos released by police, and this is not one of them.

  11. Kim

    Robert, I don’t like to debate this topic, however, almost all young girls I know would fervently avoid an act resulting in a pregnancy. There are so many other routes for young girls. Your analysis has a glaring omission of girl on girl action. At 13/14 I was hit on more by girls then boys. These girls just don’t look like that sexualized to me and I think they’re even too young/not the type for a teen pregnancy. This is my last comment on the sexuality of the girls b.c. I really want to focus on who did this to them and how he has escaped LE to date despite Libby’s heroic efforts.

    • VGLante

      I didn’t get the girl on girl thing….I’m not sure where you do Kim, but have you been around any teenage girls of this era or generation. YES, they are sexual…oral sex and every other thing you can think of. It is not just boys these days.

      Now, I’m not saying Abbie and Libby were active…I just know it happens and, if the whole pregnancy thing is true, I would guess that the boys were coercing and the girls liked the attention. Believe me, large percentages of girls of this age these days are looking for attention and find ways to get it. Yes, they may have unattentive parents or overly attentive parents…or may have been somehow abused…but they are growing up way too fast these days. FACT

      Our daughter played on the same teams as these girls in multiple sports. They were good girls, kids…they had wonderful adult guidance…and I’m sure each had gone through some rough stuff in life. They were girls…they liked boys, but mostly they were just young innocent GIRLS in way over their head…assuming this theory is true. These men are animals and must be brought to justice!!

      • Lotus

        What’s your feeling there on the ground in Delphi? Has this case gone cold? Are people ripping each other up with accusations? Are people afraid?

      • paula

        yes, these were just girls…my theory on young teen girls and sex is this….at that age you KNOW you need something and you KNOW you like to be with boys, but WHAT exactly you want isn’t clear until some rangy young guy has sex with you…with girls, and women, its far more than just a sex act….the sex is simply the means to an end…male attention, and all that it entails..

        however some girls and women have learned how to turn sex into a weapon it seems…..

        well that’s me and my boring opinion..
        back in my day, which is a little older than Robert, in HS you whispered about who was having sex, but now, people whisper who is not having sex….how the world has changed….lol

        back to the case, I think Abby and Libby were attacked by someone or more who wanted to end the “problem” or at the minimal, teach them a lesson….the oldest story in the world……

        I want those animals dragged thru the streets……

        • VGLante

          If pregnancy is involved it all makes sense and IS an ‘old as time’ scenario…you are dead right Paula.

    • Carrienations

      I’ve been lurking for awhile and mostly agree with your opinions regarding this case, but I have to agree with Robert here. I started puberty at 9. By the time I was 13, I was dying for sexual attention from boys or men. No history of sexual abuse here either, just a bundle of hormones. Had I had access to the internet then, it is hard to say what kind of trouble I would have invited into my life. Sex is much easier for a girl to pursue today because of the internet. My little cousins who are around 13, are boy crazy like you would not believe. And take pride in the fact that older guys find them attractive. While I was just as interested in sex at that age as they seem to be, they are much more aggressive with it and I think social media plays a huge part in that.

      I do think the focus should be on the man who did this to them, and that their sexuality is none of our business, but if this theory has any truth to it, their sexuality clearly played a huge role in the motive. He better not get away with this.

  12. Megan

    Robert, are you able to post a picture of the person you said looks like BG?

  13. Ann

    I don’t know if Abby was pg or not, but a couple of things stand out in that photo of her on the bridge. Her hair was put up very neatly in place. Maybe she put it up for fun, or b/c she felt like it, or maybe she was planning to meet someone around the bridge. Her top is gathered below the bust like a maternity top. Notice how it’s gathered in a way that makes pleats over the stomach and all the way to the bottom of the top. Maybe it’s just the style of the top but I’ve never seen that style on girls that age before.

  14. Bob

    Mer & Lotus: I think this is the pic.
    v2ccgzl-2 (dragged).tiff

    • Lotus

      A tiff is usually a file on your computer, or elsewhere,but it is not an address. If you want to show us a picture, but you do not have an address for it, you can upload it to imgur(dot)com and post the link here.

      • Mer

        A pic of what? I have also seen a photo of Robert’s BG. Incredibly, I think in that photo he is wearing the same garments under his jacket as BG is in the infamous photos taken by Libby.
        Recall how people are talking about the white line under his chin? Someone said it looks like the silhouette of a puppy’s head.
        BG is wearing a white t-shirt. Over that, and below his blue jacket, he is wearing a black sweater or similar garment that zips or buttons at the top. The white line is simply his t-shirt. The ‘sweater’ is open at the top and folds over somehow to create the contrast that we see as a curved white line.
        If you have access to the third photo, you can see more of the t-shirt in that image. As he walks, the top of his ‘sweater’ is flapping around, creating the different images below BG’s chin.

  15. Kathy


    I think your theory about the murders is right on! For the first time, motive and opportunity fit the crime. So do you believe that they were going there to meet someone or had told someone where they were going? So did you present your theory and suspect to LE? If so, were they receptive? I hope you receive the reward money!

    • Thx Kathy!


      That is my latest theory and I can prove it.

      They were supposed to meet Abbie’s boyfriend. He posted afterwards that he was sorry he could not make it that day and that if he were there, he hoped he would have been able to stop the killer.


      The fact that Abbie’s bf was supposed to meet them on that day also enables us to solve another problem, how the killers knew the girls would be on the bridge that day. I do not want to go into too much details on this, but if Abbie’s bf was supposed to meet them that day, then it would be very easy for two of the suspected killers to find that out. That is all I will say on that.

      So the new theory enables us to explain the mystery of how the killers knew the girls would be there on that day. That’s all wrapped up now and we don’t have to worry about that anymore.


      That would mean two from one family, father and grandfather of one of the young males involved with the girl, and one man from another family, also father of the other young male involved with the other girl.

      In the case of the two men from one family, the father and grandfather, this would absolutely be a father-son murder team. What is absolutely bizarre is that on the night of 2-14, a wild rumor flew around Delphi that the killers were a father-son kill team, that they left rope with their DNA on it and that they were arrested and then released that night. And they mentioned this in connection with the bike race on 2-15. I thought that rumor was utterly insane, but it appears that the very first rumor about the killer(s) looks like it is going to turn out to be correct after all.

      And yes, I am quite certain that two of the killers were a father and a son.

      Along with the man from the other family whose son was involved with the other girl, now we have 3 MEN PARTICIPATING IN THIS RUMOR.

      Damn this case just gets more and more nuts and weird.

    • If you like the site, why don’t you donate? This is pretty much my only job at the moment. Don’t worry about making me rich. It will all be going towards stuff like car repairs for a while now.

  16. Lotus

    This trucker runs meat loads for Indiana Packers between Delphi, Chicago, and St. Louis.
    Middle-aged men who feel compelled to video every moment of their lives are funny.

    This is his kayaking channel:

  17. Lotus

    Good video of the bridge and creek layout. This clarifies that situation.

  18. S

    Look at this pic that came up ….It looks like BG googled in names you mentioned above and hit the image link…whattya think?

  19. S

    I have the pic please email me!

  20. Sun

    For the local people here, including VGLante… For the particular males in the S family discussed above, is it plausible they could do this from a personality standpoint? Are they shady folk? If Abby was newer in town, did she and her mom maybe not realize what she was dealing with?

    There appear to be many people with that last name in the area. Like pizza place etc. Is their large presence a reason things have been kept so quiet? Surely some of them are decent people?…

    • Kim

      I’m not local but I looked at some of the (large) S family’s FB pages. Here’s my concerns about this theory:

      If there was a pregnancy there is fetal tissue and DNA. If ANY member of this extended family was ever DNA tested there would be a match to fetal DNA (nephew, first cousin, parent etc.) with a certain statistical certainty presented. That would already be done over one month ago. The motive would be crystal clear and LEmshould have already acted,on this.
      When there are multiple people with knowledge of such crimes the ability to crack the case increases exponentially with each individual, especially young people who are easier to,crack. Think Law&Order SVU, Benson and team would have had this done in one week. A lone perp is MUCH harder to determine and catch.
      The men in the S family are all big guys, too big I think except two who seem the more unlikely (I.e. Living with family out of town) of these.
      The ones living near Bicycle Rd. should have been screened for alibis, and physical looks, perhaps DNA immediately by FBI and local LE. If the story is as clear,as cover up of a pregnancy the family is responsible for why hasn’t LE cracked this case wide open 2 months ago?

      A lone perp with an unexpected mental break or grudge as EA presented also makes good sense to me. Do any of these S guys match on the voice? Because they all look physically too large to me except two.

    • PaulC

      I believe that the grandfather had like 6 kids, who then have their own kids, so they are all related. Mark appears to be Joes ( owner of the pizza place) he has had a few major drug arrests. BS posts multiple times a day on Facebook, but pre March of this year the page has been scrubbed.

      • PaulC

        I was thinking that one girl could have been the target and the other a target because as the best friend they would know what is going on with the other girl. For example if one was pregnant,was abused or knew something incriminating like who set a house on fire.

      • Sun

        B pled guilt later to auto theft. So either he was stealing other cars, or his dad meant business. B also had child support issues, and was arrested on an unspecified warrant. It appears there is only one person in Indiana with this name.

        • Sun

          Sorry for the mess… the message above should have followed the one below. Going to take a break now.

    • Sun

      Carroll County Comet from 2014 reports a 32 year-old B “arrested after being located in possession of” his father’s car. Father’s name listed as Marvin. Guess those two weren’t getting along in 2014…

      So B is “dad” and M above is “grandpa”, and B’s son was dating Abby… is that the understanding?

    • VGLante

      As much minor trouble as they may have seen, no one would suspect this. As to which boy was dating Abby…it will come out and I don’t want to point that finger.

      In regards to the “centeral to our community” part, it’s the father of the other person who would be more in the public eye…if in fact there was a pregnancy and possible conspiracy to shut the girls up in regards to an overage sex scandal with a minor.

      The town is actually managing themselves well at this point and I think that has a lot to do with the professionalism of LE. There will always be drama seekers, but overall the town wants this done and done right. If it were to come out that this theory were true…Abby was pregnant…it is hard telling what would happen. I am sure that LE will protect for this in making any announcements, as they. Have been doing so far.

      • Pam Hursst

        Abby was all excited to play softball at school this year. Her grandfather bought her what she needed a couple of days before the killings took place. That don’t sound like Abby was having no baby.. Get real!!

        • Pam, please read the Comments Rules. You are violating the Rules.

          Comments Rules violation: Hostile tone.

          Please try to follow the rules or I will have to ban you, and I would rather not do that.

          Thank you for your cooperation.

    • Sun

      OK can’t resist another comment… Taking a step back… Something’s troubling here. If anyone can shed light it would be appreciated.

      If these men were trying to cover up a pregnancy and/or other misdeeds, they sure picked a terrible way to go about it. People worried about getting in trouble or having their reputations soiled might kill someone to solve their problem, but wouldn’t they do it in a manner most likely to not be caught? Otherwise they’re making their original problem worse by tenfold.

      If these guys were really looking to solve one or more problems, you’d think the girls would have disappeared without a trace. That would be pretty easy to do right? Put them in a car, drive far away to a secure location, have a little fun torturing and raping them if you want to, but then get rid of those bodies. Bury them, burn them or dump them in a remote area. Don’t bring them back, pose their bodies, and impale the pregnant one with a stick as the ultimate calling card that you know her secret. Right? What am I missing? Was there confidence that LE wouldn’t or couldn’t do anything about it? And it was a big F you to them? What else could explain it?

      • PaulC

        Could be to set up RL? Satanic Ritual? Confidence they won’t get caught? No access to a car? It’s a great question.

      • Mer

        I don’t think the people that did this are very bright. I also don’t think their reputations were at stake.

      • Sun

        Mer, how sure are you about the Mears barn? How do people know it was a crime scene? Was there clear and/or horrifying evidence?

        It’s one thing to get girls under the bridge and then walk or drag them across the creek, killing them quickly and covering them so the searchers missed them initially. It’s quite another to get girls into car…drive to nearby second crime scene… engage in violent acts… wait for search to end… and risk return to the original location, all the while risking a trail of evidence.

        It’s hard to reconcile the barn with trying to solve a pregnancy problem and being dumb about it…. Unless they did go about it dumbly, there is evidence galore, LE is putting together an excellent case, and we just don’t know it.

        If there is scant or no evidence in this day and age, it would seem the perpetrators are pretty smart. Which seems inconsistent with the names being thrown around here, and seems inconsistent with their possible goal(s).

        • Mer

          I think the Mears barn could have been used. I did not see any evidence of a crime in the barn.

        • Scout

          I agree with you, Carrienation on several things, but mostly, the girls’ sexuality is none of our business except to try and piece all of this mess together. We need to be focusing on the killer(s). The girls are victims of depravity.
          Sun, I also think you are on to something. Keep working it out. I have a few ideas but don’t have time to write about them yet. Remember how EA. Described the culture of Amish policing themselves, Kim’ s experience when she bought her GSD, and then EA stating this thing was huge? Why would IB have lawyored up if he were innocent, which it seems he is. I think.

        • Dlux

          Hi Sun,

          You are assuming their intentions were to kill the girls, in which your question makes perfect sense. However, I am not so sure they were looking to kill, initially. That could be why they transported them to the barn in the first place. Scare them and make sure they wouldn’t talk. Mer has stated he believes they botched the abduction and the original plan, which I am starting to agree with. Had to come up with a “Plan B”, after libby was killed.

        • Mer

          The family we are talking about now is very close to Ron Logan, so the crime may have occurred on his property.

        • Sun

          Interesting, the idea of a botched abduction. If Libby fought unexpectedly hard it might have thrown the plan off.

          If everything had gone to plan, what would have been the goal of the abduction? To scare them into doing what, or not doing what? Obviously not trying to scare them into lying that Abby was pregnant. Perhaps scaring Abby into having an abortion? Perhaps the plan was to perform an abortion during the abduction?

          Hard to ring up the local doctor in the yellow pages to do a secret coerced abortion in a barn. Would a member of the Amish community or shunned community be trained to perform abortions?

        • I am the one who is sure about the barn, Mer not so much. I will tell you though that there are some flowers in that barn that were specifically placed there in a specific spot and we are 100% certain that they were specifically placed there and did not blow in with the wind or whatever.

          Also as a result of Mer’s conversation with Mears family people, I am personally 100% sure that the barn was used. Mer interprets that conversation in a different way and regards it as strong but not probitive.

          Also I just asked the two women who gave me this great latest theory who know all the deep down dirt in Delphi about this crime if the Mears barn was the kill site and was given a straight up YES by both women.

          Also there is TV video of that barn being searched with dogs. If that barn had nothing to do with anything, why are those dogs there?

          I’d say these guys are smarter than we think they are. Clever as foxes!

          Clever as a fox, definition: “.seemingly foolish but in fact extremely cunning.”

          There ya go.

          They got away with this for three months already, pretty damn smart right there.

        • Looks like there was a botched attempt at an abortion of Abbie. I am thinking Libby flipped when she saw that, went berserk, had to be restrained, things got out of hand real fast, and she was killed. Now that she’s dead the whole plan changes. Abbie will have to be killed too.

          However, I think the original plan was to leave both girls alive, just do an abortion on Abbie and scare the crap out of both of them.

        • The way Abbie was sexually violated fits perfectly with a botched abortion. We hear over and over that the girls were raped, but via much better sources, as in LE, I hear “the girls were not raped but were sexually abused,” and “the girls were not raped but were sexually mutilated.”

          Sexually mutilated sounds to me like an abortion gone very bad.

          It’s not hard to do an amateur abortion. Females used to do them with coathangers all the time.

        • Sun

          Yes that’s it isn’t it. Robert what you are saying is the only thing that makes sense.

          Still hazy on which S is which. And now understanding the P angle, Robert, is it your opinion (still?) that one or more of them is involved?

          So any of you local people have a sense whether something is ever going to happen? Are these guys just going about their business like nothing has happened?

          Does Abby’s mom have any clue about any of this? God help her.

        • Sun

          Scout what are the additional thoughts you have?

      • VGLante

        Personally, I think the initial intent was to “have a talk” with the girls and put the fear of God in them. With this in mind, there may have been some plan to assist in aborting the baby and scaring the daylights out of the girls. (We live in a rural community where livestock issues are often dealt with the same way…believe me, you don’t want to know more about that.) I think Libby put up a big fight when a possible forced back alley-farm style abortion began to take place causing an attempt to shut her up…it was a hay barn where bailing wire is often available and things went too far strangling Libby beyond recovery. Over the course of the next hours much “freaking out” took place with search team members, helicopters, police, and yes even fire fighters were out looking for the girls. Watching closely and possibly getting inside track information from someone maybe in charge of the search efforts, the coast was made clear and a frantic attempt to get rid of the bodies was made in the closest secure spot known by the “team of terror”. At some point, maybe even RL became aware of someone using his property not knowing for what reason, later finding out and being silenced…an act that may have ultimately landed him in jail.

        There was no posing of the bodies, there was an attempt to revisit the dump site to verify the girls were out of plain site, and it was discovered that Abby was still hanging on to her last bit of life. With even more freaking out going on an attempt to end her was done with whatever was available…a stick. Remember, this dump site is an actual dump site for farm trash and such. If the perp was thinking straight, he could have used countless other items of trash to do a cleaner job…the perp was not expecting to find her alive, did not have a weapon, and didn’t think to use a bike part or fence post, he used a stick.

        Following this ordeal at 9 AM, probably with inside information, approximately an hour later the search reconvened and the girls were located within a couple hours.

        No satanic rituals, no professional killers…just a few really pissed off, scared redneck men with dangerous ideas of trying to control a situation that got Away from them. People who do this are likely used to thinking they are untouchable and maybe even above the law…they make up there own rules and danger to them is a common, like walking across an insanely unsafe bridge or walking into a burning home…to them danger is power, something you brag about amongst your other redneck friends.

        I may be wrong, but if Abby was pregnant and Libby was making threats…this is the kind of thing that could happen in our rural community, not some satanic ritual.


  21. Lotus

    I think this theory of the boy’s family killing because of pregnancy is far-fetched. As we have noted before, Indiana has an exception in the law, so it would not be a crime for a 16 year old and 13 year old to have sex. Another thing is Indiana has been known for 100+ years as a place where young people could get married. Yet another thing is that Abby would be a good catch, and any boy’s family would be proud to have her. She was cute, smart, popular, and had a nice family.

    The other fact is that if an abortion was desired, it is a 2 hour drive to Chicago and a few hundred dollars for an abortion. Add a couple nights in a hotel, and that whole thing could be had for $1,000. All in all, I don’t think Abby being pregnant, if she was, would have been an impetus for a boy’s family to kill her.

    Now what I could see is if a different girl was in love with that boy and thought he was her boyfriend, and if her parents were all set on the idea that she would marry him — and then along comes Abby– and someone from that girl’s family saw fit to kill off the competition. I would believe such a scenario more if the girls were all cheerleaders in Texas and if the killer appeared to be a bleached blonde mom carrying a Gucci bag.

  22. aaron

    Sun, I had same thoughts. Either very cocky, dumb, or maybe did have a different plan of disposing of bodies but plan got botched and they panicked.

    • PaulC

      Remember that the girls being moved and returned is a rumor. But if it’s true, then you have to ask why not just leave them in the barn?

      I hope they were moved. Otherwise it sucks they gave up looking when it got dark. Where I come from we have these things called flash lights that are capable of illuminating the dark.

  23. Zuma

    Anyone willing to discuss how they have found more information based on Robert’s latest posts and comments? Y’all seem to know quit a bit (initials etc.). Not sure if I’m missing something or if those comments are from locals who want to stay on the down low.

    Basically, I curious about the initial ‘S’, the pizza place, was it father and son or grandpa, who would make us ‘fall out of our chair if we found out he is a suspect’ and the interviews the potential suspect(s) gave to TV.

    Any info would be appreciated!

  24. Lyn

    I am curious about the “over age” man allegedly involved with one victim. I have no clue there. Would he be in the same family as the one discussed here?

    • I believe Abbys bf is 21 or older

    • Liberty was having a sexual relationship with a man named Cody P., age 28. And he is a relative or hers also, an unrelated uncle. That would be Mike P.’s son.

      • Lyn

        Wow, interesting. Thanks.

      • Scout

        If what you wrote is true, that would be reportable to CPS , a crime which could be prosecuted under Indiana law. I am not even going to touch the names mentioned.

      • We are also working on a theory that MP may have been having sex with Libby also, although we do not have good evidence of that. Libby was frightened of him and hid every time he came to get her. She accused him of stalking her. She had run away from home many times in the past. Why?

        MP and Libby’s mom on Kentucky not on good terms. A lot of anger and tension between them.

        Signs that MP was feeling very burned out and exhausted from raising the girl.

        MP strange affect after the crime, noted by many. But now some say he seems to be relieved. Why might that be? Did he get away with a crime.

        MP barely interviewed by police and no DNA taken.

        Right after the crime, MP showed evidence of wounds to his arms. His lower right arm had many scratches on it. His left wrist, which normally carried a wristwatch, now had only a partial bracelet formed of a wristwatch with only the band and the watch face missing. It appeared that the watch face had been torn right off of MP’s watch. MP’s left little finger looks badly damaged. Is this recent or is it an old work injury. Photographs of his arms at this time are available.

        Police early on said they were looking for a man with black tennis shoes with a white stripe. Photographs are available showing MP with black tennis shoes with a white stripe.

        There is not a lot of evidence against MP. The evidence is summarized below:

        Odd and hostile relationship between him and the girl.

        Girl seemed frightened of him.

        Stalking of the girl.

        Girl ran away from home many times. Why?

        Poor, hostile relationship with girl’s mother.

        Seemed exhausted and overwhelmed with the task of raising girl.

        Appeared shortly after the crime was a scratched up lower right arm and a wristwatch which apparently had had its face torn off.

        Peculiar affect after the crime leaving many observers baffled.

        Seemed relieved three months after the crime, possibly due to waning fear.

        Police were looking for a man with black tennis shoes with a white stripe. He owns a pair of tennis shoes matching that description.

        Had an alibi of being at work, but could have come on the scene after 5 PM when off work.

        Photos of MP’s lower arms showing broken watch and scratched up lower arm are available, along with photos of MP wearing black tennis shoes with white stripes.

        • Denn

          Photos of the benefit bike ride that occurred the weekend after the murders show participants wearing thin wrist bracelets that say Pray for Delphi Abbie Libby. During press conferences by MP, the object on his right wrist may be one of those bracelets. Haven’t seen a close up of his wrist that’s definitive. He’s wearing black sneakers with grey trim in those media photos, but they’re higher than traditional tennis shoes.

          Nevertheless this is a stunning development and points the investigation in an even more deadly and sinister direction particularly if there is reluctance on the part of local LE to go there. BG bears some resemblance to M. though looks a bit older and larger but similar body type, similarly shaped face. Does M. have an older brother or riding buddy?

        • Thanks for this. Please email me so we can discuss the possible memorial bracelet. I have a photo and you can tell if that is what it is or not.

  25. Interesting that the social media from the S’s indicated here has been deleted. I put the dots together on the pizza place…..Abby worked there and owned by an S

  26. Denn

    Are Marvin’s sons, Brett and Barry, twins or just close in age. (i.e. mid 30s).
    Twins would make DNA certainty tough for LE, making sure they don’t charge the wrong one. Brett presents himself as quite the family man in photos. Is it really the Manson Family?

    • Who is Mark S.? I thought that Mark S. was the father of Brett and Barry S. I would really like someone to clear up for me who Mark S. He looks about 60 years old. Marvin looks about 75-80.

      • Sun

        From Carroll County Comet, 8/27/14: “Auto theft, 3102N. 450W., Delphi. Brett Sandifur, 32, was arrested after being located in Lafayette in possession of a 1999 Ford truck owned by his father, Marvin Sandifur. “

      • Mark S by what I can find is in his 30’s?

      • Denn

        Marvin was born in 1943, so 73-74 years. Mark appears to be connected to Lafayette. IMO looks to be over 50, a greybeard with a hoodie up, could be a nephew to Marvin. Outside chance even a younger brother. Mark is into 9 Inch Nails, tats, and maybe some kind of pagan/heathen theosophy. So it’s possible to link that into the occult and satanism I suppose. reveals Marvin’s household income (according to census figures) to be $100,00-$149,000. Pretty good dough for Delphi and a lot of other places.

        • My information is that Mark is one of Marvin’s sons. Mark and Brett then would be brothers. Joe is Mark’s son. Brydon is Brett’s son.

        • Just got some very interesting news. Brydon Sandifur, Abbie Williams’ boyfriend, is not 16. Instead he is a mere lad of 13-14, the same age as Abbie. And for those wondering if they were involved as boyfriend/girlfriend, I have a Delphi source who tells me that they were seen together many times around town acting extremely romantic towards each other. In that case, a pregnancy is not out of the question at all.

          Does this change anything?

        • Jen

          Robert, I think you meant that Brydon is the boyfriend, not Brett.

        • Got some more interesting news. Not sure if I have mentioned this before, but BS was spending the night at RL’s house the night before the crime, on the 12th. He was surely there the morning of the crime on the 13th. And he could well have been there at 12:30 PM when RL left for Lafayette. If this is true, this places BS right at the scene of the crime at the very time that the crime was happening. Furthermore, BS owns a silver coupe that looks remarkably like what Mer and I call a vehicle in the photo with Abbie in it. We felt that car was a light-colored coupe. BS put this vehicle up for sale very soon after the crime.

          This is all I have against BS though:

          Scary looking guy, looks menacing, wears a knife sheathed to his belt.

          Minor criminal record.

          $18,000 in arrears for child support. No doubt he does not have a high opinion of child support and would be frightened if someone very close to him would be saddled with such a burden.

          Car resembles possible car used in the crime.

          Said vehicle up for sale very soon after the crime.


          Can be placed at scene of the crime the night before the crime, the morning of the crime and possibly the afternoon when the crime actually took place.

          Photo of the vehicle for sale is available.

        • Yes Brydon was the bf, not Brett.

  27. Boilergirl

    I’m finding the latest theories of satanic ritual and family murder to cover up pregnancy too far fetched. Delphi is full of unwed mothers, single parent homes, small town breeding where everyone is related thru divorce and multiple remarriages, etc. it’s normal business. If Abby had a 16 year old boyfriend other teens would have known about it. It would be common high school/middle school information. This would have been the first place the investigatin would start with LE on February 15. The high school boy would have been well known at Delphi High and the court of high school gossip and rumors would have flushed this angle out long ago. Too far fetched. And thank you Robert for your hard work and communication. I have made a donation

    • Thanks! I need it. I got ~$800 from the last flood of donations, but honestly, most of it is going for car repairs, bills and necessary expenses. But it was still good to get it. You do not have to worry you are making me rich. You all are mostly just helping me pay basic bills. And now some necessary immediate car repairs.

      • Scout

        Correct me if wrong, but I assume you have shared the above information about your theories and subsequently the info about the car up for sale with LE. If LE. Thought there was viability in your theories, couldn’t they get a probable cause subpoena for search and seizure of said vehicle? That might be a question for Lotus, but you’ll do. 😊

    • Sun

      Boilergirl, could you expand on your insights to help us better understand what could have happened?

      What would be considered out of bounds in that town? How young is too young to be pregnant? 12? 13? Is a pregnancy from rape ok… as long as the person raped doesn’t complain? How about rape by a cousin? An uncle? What about consenting intercourse with those people, or a pastor, an employer, or who’s married?

      Your reaction would help to bracket what’s normal, What’s outside that could be considered scenarios where there would be plausible cause for someone to take drastic action.

  28. Dudley

    All this finger pointing is reminding me of the twilight zone episode “the monsters are due on maple street”..

  29. Who is IB and did he lawyer up? Where is he from?

  30. Cathie

    If the pregnancy rumour is true, I think it was a “Don’t F with Us” scenario, Uncle M.S, and cousin B.S.thought they would make things right. Their son/nephew B.S. was not going to go down, so the “Men” took charge, probably drunken and Meth’d up..and had their way with the girls and if there is any truth to Abby being stabbed in the gut this was the “F you” in retaliation. JMO

  31. Cathie

    RL was the scapegoat!

  32. Cathie

    How do I go about giving you a donation? Thank you.I am from Canada

  33. Chipscat

    The only thing about this botched abortion theory that doesn’t sit right with me is that it means that BG is a Delphi local (Right? Correct me here if not).

    I just find it almost impossible to believe that BG is local because he would have been identified already in such a small town, especially since LE has had so much outside help. Yes, every man in Delphi looks like BG. But I just read in the news this morning that police are down to their last 500 tips. It just defies reason for him to be local this far along.

    If BG isn’t local, can the abortion theory still hold together?

    • Lori

      Botched abortion? Were they hoping it would go smoothly and then just send the girls home and no one would talk? Sorry the theory is way out there.

      • Lori

        They can figure out by BG’s picture exactly how tall he is. That math is 6′ 2″ or 6 feet 2.5 inches. Who of the local suspects is 6′ 2″?

        • Lotus

          I recall reading somewhere that an expert said the BG was between 5’8″ and 5’11”.

    • PaulC

      I think the pic is pretty useless in positively identifying a suspect. All you can really tell is he’s a white middle aged man of average height and possibly a gut. And it can’t even rule suspects out because more than bridge guy might be involved. For me the bigger issue is the audio recording. If the girls were smart enough to record, I would think they would say a name or something helpful if the new the attackers.

    • Sun

      I have to believe he’s been reported, at least by people on this website. He may be actively under investigation. Or yes, you’re correct, we’re wrong about him and LE has ruled him out.

    • Sun

      About the recording, who knows if they said names, or what it means if they didn’t. Their adrenaline had to be pumping. I’m surprised when anyone makes any helpful choices in these situations. Personally, I’d probably have frozen even if it was a well known serial killer from America’s Most Wanted.

      I could see surreptitiously recording as a way to be doing something, but not too much if they felt that the situation amounted to something strange but not necessarily fatal. It’s hard to read too much into split-second decisions under stress.

      • Sun

        For those actually capable of thinking quickly and rationally in this situation…

        Recording but not saying a name would be consistent with Libby wanting to be able to later corroborate her recollection of an unpleasant event. If they were sure their lives were about to end, perhaps they’d say the name so LE would have the info. It’s possible they feared that if they did say the name, and recording were obvious, they would be inviting a worse response.

        By all accounts the screaming in the recording wasn’t immediate, which suggests didn’t think they were going to die when the recording was turned on. Once they started screaming, they likely had more visceral concerns than remembering to shout a name. Or again, shouting the name coupled with knowledge of recording would risk very harsh consequences.

        It’s a decision tree…needing to be navigated under high stress with split-second timing. It’s a miracle Libby even turned the phone on. Hero indeed.

        • Lotus

          I don’t know, but my guess is she probably put the phone in her pocket after a few seconds, so she could record and not have it seen. The girls knew for sure there was danger. They had texted a friend of theirs saying they were being followed by a man.

          I have personally been in similar situations, one extremely similar situation of being with a friend when an older man pulled a gun on us in an isolated place. In my experience, I knew I was acting to save my life and that of my friend. The mind thinks of survival and guides the actions in that direction.

          In recent mass shootings, such as in the nightclub in Orlando, there were people who texted or phoned their loved ones to say they were going to die. There have also been people on hijacked planes and in the towers on 9/11 who called their families to say they were going to die.

          But, I think when you are with your attacker face-on, you think of survival, not of death, and you keep fighting until you cannot any longer.

  34. Ben Franklin

    This whole thing is just really odd.. still no FBI profile. Obviously FBI has the best of the best of everything. Still no guesstimate on height and weight. That would narrow it down a bit. Maybe a few more details.

    There is no info / new articles .. nothing. Just articles talking about the community dealing with this tragedy and taking back the trail. I get so pissed off. I understand patience and not giving out too much. But seriously height and weight. Come on now.

    So it seems to me above theory is possible. Maybe its many of folk involved and it’s a bizarre unbelievable scenario/ sick twisted situation And they know all who are involved.. it’s just a puzzle to put together. Unreal though.

  35. Zuma

    Definitely still questions. The above is just a theory. Could be something we’ve never thought of. Hope no one else gets hurt and that they don’t pin this on the wrong person. I’ve kind of become delirious over it all having thought about it so much. Glad there has just been informal speculation for all involved. I guess this could be bigger than thought? Still so interesting and awful.

  36. Lotus

    People are asking about a profile of the BG. One has not been provided, but we can look at what we, the public do know or can surmise from what is known:
    He is white.
    He is male.
    He is probably middle-aged. His voice does not sound young.
    He is physically fit and strong, but has a bit of a paunch.
    He most likely knows the trail area very well.
    He most likely had been before to the flat dump area on RL’s property where the bodies were found.
    He most likely had been on the bridge before.
    He most likely has no fear of heights, may enjoy heights.
    He may enjoy railroad history.
    His voice sounds like he is from that area – Indiana, the southern parts of Ohio or Illinois, Kentucky, Tennessee, or someplace south.
    He probably wears jeans most of the time.
    He probably wears casual or work shoes most of the time.
    He is probably attracted to teen girls.
    This is probably not his first rodeo — he has probably molested or raped or killed before.
    He was probably present at the trail site and nearby for most of the day and or night of February 13 and possibly on the morning of February 14. That means he did not have a job, school, family, or other thing he had to attend on the February 13.
    That also probably means he does not have a wife or family that would notice he was not home on February 13 or that he was routinely away from them so it was not unusual.
    He is probably not living in Delphi or the immediate area, or he would have been identified by now.
    He is probably not a close relative or friend of either girl or their families or friends, or he would have been identified by now.
    He may have gone to Delphi that day to hike or fish.
    Since he placed the girls’ bodies in a dump area, he may like to garbage pick or go to dumps to see if he can find spare parts or metal parts he can sell as scrap. That may have been why he was there that day.
    He may have taken his own pictures or videos of the events that day.

    • Spot on. Best post I’ve seen in this blog by any contributor.

    • Scout

      Aristophanes quote ” even if you persuade me, you won’t persuade me”.

      I had to stop reading about all the rumors and theories to clear my head. My soul has been so noisy lately that I needed to balance it and just get away from this convoluted and disturbing case. I cannot erase the girls’ suffering from my heart. I cannot imagine the pain of the families. I have sat in quiet presence with those whose suffering had no words.

      I do not have enough information to support any one theory, nor would I be comfortable doing so. I appreciate reading John’s and Brenda’s comments. And Mer, you always seem to get things back on track. I do appreciate so much everyone’s willingness to work and try to process this horror.

      I think Lotus’ profile is really good. I would add this person may have a history of: torturing or cruelty to animals, criminal behavior, violating the rights of others, laughing at other’s pain, bullying.

      I agree with VGLante’s comments about these “people” are likely to think themselves untouchable, above the law, make their own rules. I disagree that the killer(s) are “good Ole boys” or scared rednecks. I think its possible that one of the participants might be scared, but the killer himself has a psyche that we cannot wrap our minds around.

      I think he is someone who allowed his thoughts to travel to very deep and dark paths. I think he has been having these thoughts for a very long time, he has fantasized about what it would be like to commit such violations. He may have practiced on animals, he may have spent time searching for the perfect location. He reworked and reworked every detail to his desired outcome. He may have tasted the power of complete control over life and death of another living creature.

      Rape is not just sex, it is about power and control. Power is about Getting an unwilling victim to do what you desire them to do. Torture is one method of control and getting what you want. It is also a device to excite and further motivate a killer. I have read first person accounts of the very act of watching the life drain out of a victim. It is gruesome and I could hardly stomach it. Still can’t. I’ve done enough research on this population to know some things never change.

      Whether these girls were raped or not, their suffering was so immeasurably high, I can only hope they dissociated or were passed out before death.

      I bet 100% of the bloggers on this site would have such a strong visceral reaction they’d vomit if they truly knew what a killer actually thought. We cannot remotely fathom the depravity of their unconscionable mind.

      So, we want to make sense of something that truly makes no sense at all. We wrack our brains to figure this out, to feel safer, to ensure nothing like this happens again. We cannot reconcile this kind of evil. We devise theories that heap us sleep better at night. We cannot turn off a TV and say that was just a crime show. We cannot unknow, what we know.

      I do believe there are mitigating motives. But I am going back to my original gut instinct. Truly, I think the killer did it simply because HE could. And we will never understand that.

      • Kim

        Thank you for your sumary above Scout; it must be very traumatizing to hae had to listen FTP first hand accounts from such sick individuals. Personally, I feel that SK and folks as you describe have given up their right to exist with humanity. It is the sole population that I have no compunction about a death sentence. However, we do not yet know for sure that these girls were tortured, so I would encourage you to shake off the full scope of such darkness for a while.

        I agree completely with your statement that “I think he is someone who allowed his thoughts to travel to very deep and dark paths. I think he has been having these thoughts for a very long time, he has fantasized about what it would be like to commit such violations. “. I am still unclear about the BS suspect (father) simply because he looks too fat and physically unfit to be the man in Libby’s pic. I only saw one member of that family fitting the physical profile. On the other hand Eric Alters suspect IB fit the voicematch and physical size.

        Whoever, this ends up being, it seems we all are thinking a local, I sure wish they had made an arrest before tomorrow (Mothers Day) when these poor girls Mothers/grandmothers will be nursing an empty heart.

        • Bridge Guy is not the father. Instead, he is another relative. And this man is such a dead ringer for BG that once you see his photo, you will about fall out of your chair.

      • Excellent post, Scout. Thanks for the wake-up call of reality.

        • Scout

          Titus: 1:15b “in fact both their minds and consciences are corrupted.” and Titus: 3:10-11″Warn a divisive person once, and then warn him a second time. After that have nothing yo do with him. You may be sure that such a man is warped and sinful: he is sell condemned.”

          Kim, I think you misunderstood what I wrote “I have READ first person’s accounts” during my research to assist victims. I work with victim’s and REFUSE to work w ASPD. True ASPD would have no reason to get into therapy unless they were court ordered. Even then I have convinced judges that it is a waste of time. They are not neurologically wired for change.
          I agree that they are the sole population in which I have no compunction about the death penalty.

          I had to get all that off my chest before Mother’s Day. My heart goes out to the mothers and grandmothers of Libby and Abbie. May God wrap his arms around them and provide them the peace and comfort only He can provide.

          May God bless and honor all mothers today.

        • Scout

          Thank you, kelswhit77. And thank you to Kim, I sometimes struggle with secondary traumatization working w victims. I have a pretty good system of recovery in place though, and HE refreshes my soul. This murder has touched all of us deeply. Thank you Robert for your hard work and providing this forum.

  37. John

    The information that I have gathered points to a father and son being involved and that the girls if not raped were seriously mutilated. The girls did not know the man on the bridge or else they would have stated his name during the recording.
    Both men are locals and knew the area well. The police are on to these guys and every day they are building their case.
    Both men are either currently in jail or recently have been.
    I do not believe Abbie was targeted due to her pregnancy. These girls were watched and the girls fell into a well planned trap.
    Also, the rumors about satanic markings are crap and is a side show. The killer brutally used his weapon to cut these girls bodies up.

  38. Polyester

    Its been stated that the phones were never found and that all information was gathered off of Libby’s cloud. Is there a time stamp on that? I’ve not seen a time for the “Down the hill” recording, or the photo/video still of the man on the bridge. Yet, there is a time stamp for the pic of Abbie on the bridge. I’d like that explained. It would be beneficial to see the amount of time that transpired between Libby posting the pic to Snapchat and Libby taking the video of the bridge guy, then making the infamous recording of her killer’s voice. Those time stamps, coupled with the timing of the pings on the two cell towers, would be interesting to see mapped out.

    With the town only having two cell towers, I’ve read where the pings could be almost impossible to pinpoint, a general vicinity is the best they might be able to come up with. One of the girls lived less than one mile from the bridge. That resonates with me. A ping from the bridge, the cemetery by RL’s property, their OWN house – could register the same. How many of our players in this scenario live near where the first search warrant was issued? west bicycle bridge rd? If they were following pings, this could indicate a lot.

    There was a hearing last month to seal the autopsy reports. The basic information from the coroner was provided but no details. On his report, both girls died on the 13th. The actual document was available on line to put to rest any rumors about one girl being kept alive over night.

    The crime itself is so convoluted. Why not leave them in the barn? Why drag them near the edge of a river bank but not put them in the river? And how in the world, if the bridge guy is a local, could he NOT have been identified by now?

    I’d like to believe the police are watching and building a case, but the amount of resources that went into this case does not suggest that LE had any leads.

    • Lotus

      The photo of Abby on the bridge is from Libby’s Instagram. She actually posted that. She took that picture, followed by another one facing the other way. Then the man was coming upon them on the bridge quickly, and she began to video. The stills of the man are taken from the video. They were recovered either from her phone or from her account of whatever she used for videos. The pics of the man are stills from the video and have been edited and doctored by police to make them clearer.

      I hope that helps explain this.

    • Lotus

      If you have a link to that autopsy report, please post it.

    • VGLante

      Bicycle Bridge Rd is located right by my house and not near the High Bridge….6-7 miles away. The connection there had more to do with multiple reports of people thought the guy looked like BG and assumed quick he was the guy due to some FB profile photos he posted of a cartoon character holding the head of another decapitated person. As it turned out, he was just a weird guy…no connection.

      Later it was reported that a teenage training bra and pocketbook had been found on Bicycle Bridge Road, a well traveled back road out of town towards Lafayette.

      Thirdly, RL’s son lives on that same road.

      None of these clues proved to have any merit. Zero

      This story of the barn and potential abortion seems to be the closest story known to the community regarding the killings. Nearly all others have been thrown out. Mist of us think LE has known these details for several weeks or even months.

      Robert is definitely on to something here.

  39. Polyester

    The date of death is listed as an exception to the order.There was an article, that I can’t find now, that had LE stating this was done on purpose to squash the rumors. I’ve got a project due or Id keep up the search.

    Having said that, the petition was written by the state prosecutor, not just some attorney, and it was written on behalf of the court. I’m confident that the state would not publish false information, considering it could be used against their case in the future. Having seen the autopsy report he was asking to seal, he declared the girls killed on the 13th.

    • Mer

      The state prosecutor is ‘some attorney’, and he has not read the autopsy report, nor does he have any information from the autopsy.

      • Lotus

        I think the prosecutor had to see what she or he is trying to have sealed.

      • ej

        The prosecutor in Carrol County not only has read it.

        He retains everything on the case. Everything is turned over to him.

        With the exception of evidence or something that would need held in a property room.

  40. Mer

    Note to the readers of this blog.

    Robert has done a great job on the Delphi murders. I just read posts by John and Brenda that support the current theory. Robert’s theory is based on information/rumor from Delphi locals. I assume John and Brenda are also local to the area.

    Thanks, Robert, for all you have done to explore this crime. The blog has been fascinating from the very beginning.

    Everyone reading this should consider sending Robert their appreciation by donating to his blog through the link he provided. I think he asks his regular commentators for a minimum of $10. If you click on ‘contact’ at the top of the page, that will take you to a page where you click on the word ‘contribution’.

    • Sunflower

      Today, May 13, 2017, – 3 months and still unsolved.

    • Kim

      Mer, I’m just waiting for you to make me laugh again! I admit I would love to hear what the “hillbilly” says about the Sandifur family. Remember he got banned when he lost his temper defending RL’s son. Alter seemed to have very strong opinions of the folks he knows who grew up and live near the bridge. He’d have to know the Sandifur clan, and he certainly wasn’t shy about speaking his mind. 🙂

      • Mer

        Eric is not a hillbilly. I apologize for saying that. I’ve been to his FB site. He looks good, and he has all his teeth, Kim. And, he works.

        He would likely know all the players, if not personally, then by reputation.

        • Kim

          Funny Mer! I did check out Alter on FB and although I couldn’t count them, he looked like he had a fine set of teeth :-).

          Better news, I messaged him and he said he has been talking to Robert and will return and share his thoughts in near future. He said he has some evolving theories regarding a pregnancy/motive etc. but will leave that to him.

        • Mer

          Yes, Kim, molestation, rape, and pregnancy seem to be the motive.

        • Mer

          That is, covering up molestation, rape and pregnancy seems to be the motive.

      • Sun

        Robert’s comments policy says that a banned person can petition directly to be reinstated… and that while few do petition, they are usually reinstated.

        Agreed, it could be quite interesting to hear EA’s take on the Ss, Ps, etc.

  41. S

    The names mentioned above by Robert( by initials) see facebook pics of m.s. scary …man under tree in woods with cane….gotta see it!

    • Sunflower

      The other FB photo shows a rather gaunt looking person with a cane and very tilted axis (shoulders). He doesn’t look healthy or strong. The other guy under the tree (is he the same one?), appears to have done a re-enactment of a tree-hanging and he is laid to rest as a dead person.

      He is a strange, dark person.

      • S

        It is one of the names Robert was asking about (M.S)and further searching are relations from same “S” family…shows pics of Libby on sites with them ….

      • Kim

        I agree completely with your description. He was imprisoned for sharing his methadone resulting in the death of a woman. He doesn’t look robust or healthy to me either.

  42. Clark Kent and Lois Lane

    Let’s talk about that fire in Flora for a few rounds. In the early morning hours of November 21, 2016, a fire broke out in an old, neatly-kept home at 103 E. Columbia Street in Flora, Indiana. A friendly-looking Black woman named Gaylin Rose lived there with her 4 daughters, who were pre-teens each aged 2 years apart. The 4 girls died and the mother was seriously injured and airlifted to a hospital. Foul play was not first suspected, but upon further investigation, it is believed the first was arson and was set with accelerants in several places in the home. Anyone with info is to call 1-800-382-4628.

    The 4 girls had performed in a cheerleading competition several days before the fire. They belonged to a cheerleading group that met once a week. Their mother said she worked day and night to afford the cheerleader uniforms for all of them. She is since out of the hospital, moved elsewhere with family, and started a new job.

    The home appears to be owned by Birch Tree Holdings, LLC, which appears to be a holding company for 12 properties in Flora and Bringhurst, Indiana, owned by the Ayres Family and their son’s partner . The Birch Tree holding company is addressed at 22 Columbia Street, the Ayres True Value Hardware Store. The properties were signed over by quit claim or warranty deed by John E and Judith H. Ayres and Joshua S. Ayres and Troy Helderman. Joshua Ayres and Troy Helderman run the True Value with John Ayres. Joshua and Helderman in 2016 negotiated a 10 year lease on the old Alco building and opened a larger True Value store that includes items for the hobby farmer, home furnishings, yard furniture and grills, as well as heating and cooling services called Climatek . They also have home items. They say they have 10 full-time employees.

    Climatek is a corporation owned by Josh Ayres and Troy Helderman, created in 2010. Troy Helderman is listed as living at 214 E COLUMBIA STREET, FLORA, IN, 46929, as is Zakry Gutierrez. Online records show Zakry Gutierrez as being 29 years old and a former Indiana prisoner for domestic battery, battery, and burglary. There is also a Regina Gutierrez listed as living at the address.

    A person who says he is a former employee of Climatek, using the name John Bags, wrote a scathing Google review of the company. He said the owners are two scumbags who cut corners and sell old, moldy appliances. He updated his review to say he was threatened by them for writing the review.

    The house that burned at 103 E. Columbia had a 2016 assessed value of $35,400 for the house and $8,800 for the land.

    From the article linked below:
    “Josh Ayres, a graduate of Carroll Jr.-Sr. High School, attended Ivy Tech for training in HVAC systems. Helderman graduated from Barr Reeve Community High School in Daviess County and attended HVAC training at the Trane factory in Wisconsin. He followed a job to Carroll County and the two formed a partnership in 2007.”
    This is an article about that:

    • Denn

      Don’t know what to make of this coincidence: If Robert is correct that Mark’s son is named Joe, it turns out that the Flora Pizza King, located across the street from the arson fire that killed the four sisters, is owned by Joe and Abby Sandifur. Would this be the same Joe RL is talking about? There’s sure a lot of Sandifurs in Indiana, and some of them seem to be in close proximity to horrible tragedies.

      • Ron Logan is seen talking about a Joe person?

        • Denn

          Humble apologies Robert my brain cramped up and a horrible Freudian slip appeared. Meant to say “Robert Lindsey” not RL as in Ron Logan. Wrong “RL” as it were. Who is the Joe Sandifur owner of Flora Pizza King located across the street from the arson house fire that killed four sisters?

          Apparently son of Mark Sandifur.

 published an article by staff reporter Kim Dunlap on Feb. 19 2017 entitled Bonded By Grief Flora and Delphi’s Tragic Connection. Pizza King is described located across the street from the fire and owned by Joe and Abby Sandifur.

      • Sunflower

        Pizza King very well may be a money-laundering joint for drugs, selling stolen property, etc.

  43. John

    Again, everything points in one direction and it isn’t hard to figure this thing out. One guy lied to the police about where he was the day the girls went missing. He was actually at a dump site. Coincidence? I think not!
    That same gentleman has a son that grew up in the area. On camera this guy said his son played in the area where the bodies were found.
    The police may have ruined any prosecution by waiting so long to search this guy’s property.
    The son may have been the killer and the father the accomplice. I believe both people have a criminal history.

    • VGLante

      The killer may have been staying with RL, but was not him or his son. RL is probably sitting jail now because he refused to cooperate in turning on his lifelong friends….he is paying the penalty for them right now.

  44. Zuma

    Do we know the alibis of the dudes in question?

    Also, commenters dropping things like, “I have a strong link to the case” etc. please tell us more!! 🙂

    Finally, what is the significance of the Flora fire?

    • Lotus

      To your question, “What is the significance of the Flora fire?”

      Flora is about 5 miles from Delphi. The fire killed 4 girls who are in the same approximate age range as the girls killed in Delphi. The sisters were aged 5 – 11, while the Delphi girls were 13-14.

      At first, the Flora fire dept said there were no accelerants and the fire started behind the fridge. After the Indiana Department of Homeland Security came, they said there were accelerants throughout the house, that the fire started at the rear of the house, and that the fire was intentionally set. Lots of household things can be accelerants. Here is a list:

      The building is listed in tax records as a single family home. Instead it was converted into 2 apartments (illegally converted?). The 4 girls and their mother lived downstairs, where the fire occurred. The upstairs apartment had a woman with 2 children living there. The upstairs children were not home during the fire and their mother was able to escape.

      Similarities between the cases are that Sheriff Tobe Leazenby is investigating both, that both cases involve girls dying, that the cases are in the same county, the cases are within less than 3 months of each other, both cases are offering rewards, and neither case has had a suspect apprehended.

      Aside from those basic similarities, some people seem to think there is a connection between the cases. I have not seen any theory I think is worth repeating. Some theories have been posted on this blog’s comments.

      If the fire did start behind the fridge and if the landlords are known to buy old moldy appliances and use White Lightning to clean mold off of them, as the review from their alleged former employee states, it may be that the landlords cutting corners may have led to the fire. That is speculation and that is for the sheriff and Indiana DHS to investigate.

  45. Zuma

    Thank you for the explanation. Definitely an interesting variable. Have really enjoyed your participation here.

    • Scout

      Ditto. I will miss most (not all of) your commentary. You’ve given us some excellent insight.

      • Daniel

        It’s really harsh, isn’t it, when someone comes along who doesn’t agree with every single thing you say? It’s almost as if that Lotus guy has a brain.

      • Kim

        I agree, and I wouldn’t second guess Roberts judgement as I note Robert is a keen observer of human psychology and nature. He noted an annoying tone and I noted a tone of condescension in Lotus. I did like her/his profile/summary but only agree up to line 10 (probably wears jeans a lot).

        I think that a correct scenario and suspect has likely been discussed here on Roberts site, if it is a local perp. The only reason I am still thinking it may have been a lone individual is because I’ve heard that lone perpetrators of seemingly random (i.e.lacking apparent motive) crimes are the hardest to solve (eg. SKs), and we are 3 months out and this remains unsolved.

        I hope that everyone stays on this, especially the local folks as it’s not over until an arrest. I’m wondering if LE is hoping for a confession in order to spare the families a trial, in which case the public will never know what actually happened to the girls as the autopsy is sealed.

  46. J

    There was a comment posted on March 1 by a lady on the Carroll County Indiana scanner F/B page. She claims the day the bodies were found she encountered a man wearing the same outfit as BG with the blue jacket, brown hoodie but was wearing a bandanna and his goatee appeared to be a little longer, he had a camo backpack and walked with a cane.

    I think Robert is spot on with all three of his POI, but feel there could be one or two more that are involved or at least accomplices.

  47. J

    I will make a donation asap Robert. I know you are putting a lot of time and hard work into this and things get difficult at times.

  48. Sun

    VGLante, Brenda, anyone else with local knowledge… There’s been a lot of talk about Liberty’s family. There appear to be a local tangled web of divorces, step-relatives, etc as well as drug arrests, DUIs, etc. It’s almost impossible to decipher the relationships in her obituary with all the different last names, which wouldn’t even include failed marriages in between initial and current ones.

    On the other hand, there’s been little talk of Abby’s family. Looking at her obituary, paternal relatives are completely absent. I understood Abby and her mother to be relatively new in town, and maybe Abby was, but in fact her maternal grandparents and great-grandparents are local which means her mother must have been. Do we know anything about Abby’s family?

    Robert, I’m curious… someone once asked you a question along the lines of who really needs help now, and you mentioned Libby’s mother. It was somewhat striking as Libby’s mother has a current family elsewhere and was not raising Libby, while Abby’s mom was a single mother who was probably very close to her. Is that because Abby’s mother has better familial, emotional and financial support?

    Just want to make sure we’re turning over every stone. Thank you.

    • I believe you misread me. I thought I said Abbie’s mother really needed help.

      I like Abbie’s Mom and I think she is a good mom and a good parent, which is more than I can say for some of these other players. She is also raising an autistic child. She seems to be devastated by these events. She works as a waitress at a restaurant called The Dock in Pittsburg just outside of town and my understanding is that she is dirt poor. I feel really bad for her, honestly.

      • Sun

        This may be irrelevant, but Abby’s mother lives in Delphi, correct? Abby was her only child. It would appear Liberty’s biological mother lives in Kentucky. Google “Carrie Timmons Kentucky” to get Liberty appears in the banner photo with her mother and what is likely her step-sisters.

        • Sun

          Sorry for my confusion Robert, I added an “h” to your Pittsburg. I get it now, thank you.

          Thank you VGLante for putting things in perspective. What are we doing? It’s a fine line. I think we’re trying to help. LE is either building a case; doesn’t have enough to build a case; or is in between, and we can try to give them some extra research or perspective that helps to connect the dots.

          If we knew with certainty that LE was well on their way, it would probably be most helpful to stop all this discussion. And maybe the last scenario above is ridiculous. But it’s hard to know without seeing everything LE has. So we keep discussing.

          Someone else speculated that we are wanting to reassure ourselves by coming up with certain theories. I don’t feel that way . There are clearly people on this site with considerable insights, expertise and IQ, and we might actually rival LE with our collective cognitive capabilities. If only we had their information. Robert, you should start a PI firm with some of your commenters!

    • VGLante

      There is a tangled web of divorces within Libby’s family, but they are not dirt poor. Libby was being raised by her grandparents and her parents seemed to be living their own lives separately for some reason…I’m sure there is a very personal reason for this. Her dad lives in the area, but didn’t really do much in her life.

      Abby’s mom is single and hard working…was very close to her daughter. She is devastated and the very quiet type.

      In regards to money, both families have received so much money in donations that money should not be a problem. Coping with the loss is huge for them, and now dealing with media, accusations, and internal family drama is extremely tough.

      I’m sure you can imagine the amount mess it would be dealing with family who previously didn’t care much, now coming around when money and such is being divided and who knows what else. Attention is another thing some people fight for when their true involvement was never before apparent. I personally have spoke to MP a number of times at ball games and such…I don’t believe he’s the problem. In fact, I’d say he is the rock in family along with his wife, which explains their raising Libby.

      You never know what goes on behind closed doors and to be honest, most of us just don’t want to know. We all just want to get to the bottom of the murders and get this thing behind us. I’m sure the families just want the same.

      • Kim

        Yes, from what I’ve seen on these families FB pages, it looks to me like both these girls were in nurturing and safe family situations. As someone who has worked in major cities such as Chicago, Minneapolis etc. I can tell you it isn’t uncommon to see grandparents, single parents raising kids. MP worked at Catepillar, and I agree seemed to provide a strong anchor for that family.

        I think these girls were in very loving and supportive homes, perhaps even moving to Delphi in order to raise these girls as in Abby’s case. Certainly no one expected something like this to happen to them.

        (Attacked and murdered while hiking on their day off from school, with Libby capturing a recording and Law Enforcement unable to bring justice to these families yet…….. 😦

        • Sun

          Kim and VGLante, have you seen the information Robert has regarding the P family? In particular, the son? If you have not, and you email him, he will likely send it to you.

          Your reaction to that information would be most welcome. If MP isn’t directly involved, he was seriously asleep at the wheel for a long time at a minimum. The behavior of his son is so heinous – as is his casual and crude reference to his own abhorrent, illegal behavior – that it’s hard to believe an upstanding citizen could have raised him. Depending on how you read the information, it could also suggest his father knew what was happening, or even more.

          It doesn’t mean they’re killers, but if they’re being ruled out from the get-go based on MP’s public face, this information might change that. And given what LE has put RL through for a DUI probation violation, MP’s son should get at least as much pressure from them for something much more disturbing and directly related. Hopefully he has.

        • Sun

          Brenda, the MP/CP message above is for you too. Where are you Brenda?… Please stay part of the discussion. Thank you.

        • Kim

          Hi Sun, busy with my day job (so I can pay Robert :-)! No, I haven’t heard all the rumors about MP’s son, but I did hear the one about his ‘relationship’/molestation of Libby. I also heard she may also have been pregnant, biracial child. I really don’t have a clue what to believe, I’m starting to think the sealed autopsies hold the truth on the girls. Statistically it’s such slim chance they were BOTH pregnant so there’s definitely some untruths here.

          But it looks like a motive rich environment in that town, it’s really way too lurid for my taste. These were 13/14yo girls, not 17yo’s where I might not be so surprised.

      • Scout

        VGLante’s, thank you for this information. If outsiders, such as myself, wanted to offer encouraging words or a comforting card, for either girls’ mom/ relatives, is there some organization to where we could send these? Red Cross maybe? A local church? I know the community has done a lot of supportive and in memory of activities? Could this be organized someway with an address posted for this?

        Robert would this be in violation of your site? Or should we find another way. I particularly think Abbie’s mom could use the kindness from strangers.

        • Clark Kent and Lois Lane

          You might consider sending your kindness to Gaylin Rose, the mother of the 4 girls killed in the fire. She is living elsewhere with relatives now. She lost 4 daughter in a fire that DHS said was deliberately set. She suffered injuries and lost her home, too.

      • Sun

        Thank you VGLante. This is such a helpful window into a suffering and frustrated community. Thank you for helping us keep things in perspective and sharing your personal insights. It must not be easy.

        • Scout

          Superman couple, how would I go about sending something to Gailyin Rose? To where? I was unaware of her tragedy until you wrote about it. Thank you for that suggestion. Will add her to my prayers as well.

    • Scout

      Sun I really appreciate your curiosity. Your inquiry has prompted me to see if there is more that could be done for at least Abbie’s mother, and Libby’s mom and grandmother. 😊

    • VGLante

      I have seen some of the info and am being forced to rethink my thinking.

  49. Lulu

    Libby has been reported as a run away many of times that is why they called off the search party early that night is because they thought she must of just ran away again. But what was she running from. Libby’s friends said she would hide from her grandfather when he would come to get her. I was also told other things about him like he was a strange stalker which would be why she recorded him. She needed proof that he was stalking her. If indeed he did touch her in a bad way most of the time the apple don’t fall far from the tree. I believe Cody did too. I think it was both of them that did this. You can see the news reports and see something is just not right about him. The go fund me accounts yes there was two. Both were made before they was even identified as the girls bodies that were found. Let’s say libby was molested and before she could tell she was murdered. Not saying abby was too. That is something that can be investigated later on. But it would give motive. Also. The nephew to mike said that when the police came to question mike. That they acted like it was a joking manner. And that they did not even take his DNA. A red truck was reported in the area when the murdered happened. Cody owns a red truck. Mike is friends with the local police department. In his past I found out that his father killed his self when mike was only 12 years old. That is mental illness in the family not to mention what it did to him as a growing boy. My motive would be him molesting libby and she was gonna tell and he shut her up before she could. I live in Delphi before I get jumped “do I even live here”

    • Kim

      Lulu, thank you for sharing, it is troubling information. Usually family and people living with the victim are checked out thoroughly.
      Even if the grandfather is buddies with local LE don’t you think that the FBI checked him out thoroughly and asked him for an alibi?

      I saw some speculating he could be a candidate in the first 2weeks by some folks, then it went away, I assumed it was because he had an alibi?? But thanks for sharing your thoughts.

    • Sun

      Goodness. Robert, are you ready yet to share your circumstantial evidence regarding MP…?

    • VGLante

      One never knows what happens behind closed doors, but this would surprise me greatly. I would have a very hard time seeing Mike this way and cannot imagine he and his wife coming forward to talk regularly in the public eye with this type of secret. He is a very smart man, he manages himself extremely well under this type of distress, and I just don’t see it.

      Also, this does not explain why Abby was kept alive longer and was the focus of the sexual assault, mutilation, and spearing. I am not sure the girls would have been taken to a barn for a matter like the one you describe, I am not sure they would have been found locally, and I’m not sure this matter would have involved Abby.

      It’s this kind of scrutiny that has to be the hardest on the families after going through such a traumatic event.

      No matter what comes to be proven in this case, I feel sure it is local, it is extremely personal, and there will big surprises.

    • Dundee34

      Seriously. Because someone died by suicide that means mental illness in the family and they must be mentally ill. That is such a stigmatizing statement and incorrect on multiple levels. You should be ashamed of yourself for type casting someone because of something a parent has done that you have no clue of the details. Dying by suicide is a sad sad thing and does not always mean mental illness. Even if it does, trauma for the family does not equal the same either. Please reframe from totally ignorant hurtful comments.

  50. Robert L, I petition to reinstate Lotus and Eric Alter. Their shared insights and information added much to this blog, despite their sometimes sarcastic or condescending tone. This topic will cause all of us to get knocked off kilter from time to time. Thank you. Who’s with me???

    • Eric is already allowed to come back. I have made friends with him on Facebook, and I really like him. He seems like a really nice guy. I don’t care about his grammar, but he does have to follow some basic rules like one space between each paragraph.

      Lotus will have to petition me on her own via email. She seems pretty stubborn and I am thinking she is not going to do that.

    • Eric is already allowed to come back. I have made friends with him on Facebook, and I really like him. He seems like a really nice guy. I don’t care about his grammar, but he does have to follow some basic rules like one space between each paragraph.

      Lotus will have to petition me on her own via email. She seems pretty stubborn and I am thinking she is not going to do that.

    • Loopyloo

      No to Eric he’s an attention seeker liar

      • ej

        I’ve been shot at and missed, sh#t at and hit! Loopyloo which one of my ex-wife’s have you been talking to?

        Thanks for the olive branch Robert.

        I’m behind on my home remodel and currently extremely busy.

        I think the Flora fire entered more variables into the Delphi equation.

        I recently mentioned to a couple people a theory about someone being pregnant in particular circumstances.
        However I was not aware of the ages of the Flora victims and am pulling back on that issue for the moment.

        Follow this link to my FB page and read the email screenshots. I’ll try to make it back on here asap.

        • Kim

          Eric, they were all daughters (girls), 11, 9, 7 & 5yo, so they were younger than Abby & Libby. Since the burned house was apparently across the street from Sandifur’s pizza place, it is likely Abby knew them from there? The owner of the pizza house must have known them also.

          Welcome back…. Oracle of Delphi 🙂

          I had one other thought about the BG. Since people in this small town are saying they don’t recognize him (although there were probably many people who IDed him in tips to LE and I still think your ID with IB is a ringer), I was wondering if it may have been a 3rd party put up to this by the person with a motive to silence the girls. For example,

          Even RL said “I’ve never seen him before” in interview, although his voice had no conviction.
          What if the person who wanted the girl(s) silenced knew that they’d eventually be suspect (questioned, DNA taken, suspected etc) so they didn’t feel comfortable doing it themselves.
          So they brought in a friend or out of town family member to act as executioner (BG), which might explain why he’s not IDed yet?

          Not sure if it makes sense but thought I’d throw it out there…. Still, if the FBI left, it may be as Eric said before, that they IDed the perp(s), just waiting for LE to make their move??

        • Sunflower

          Welcome back Eric:)

      • Barbarino

        I agree… Rob, You’ve already given that drunktard his 15 minutes of fame. Why 15 more?

      • Mer

        I don’t think Eric is a liar. I think he had strong feelings about a suspect. He even made a video about this guy. It all seemed to fade away. But I still believe that given Eric’s identification of the guys appearance and voice, and a few other suspicious facts about the case, that his proposed suspect remains a POI.

        • Kim

          I’m going to admit to being pretty OCD myself and I am still hung up on the voice match with Eric’s first suspect. But I took a look at the stuff on EJ’s (Eric’s) FB page. It’s way too complicated for a mind not immersed in Delphi but it seems that the tragic house fire (arson) was directly across the street from the Pizza shop that a Sandifur owns (I couldn’t find that particular Sandifur’s pic) and is the place where Abby worked.

          I’m not sure what connection Libby had to that shop or if the girls were classmates etc. of the 4 children who passed in the fire. I’m wondering if Eric thinks that Abby or Libby might have known details of who/what caused that fire and were killed to shut them up??

        • Sunflower

          Mer, thanks for bringing up the Flora fire story. I was not familiar with that story until you had mentioned it, which caused me to research and read it online. This introduces a deeper plot to the story. Mysterious!

  51. Steven G

    How do i post a photo in the comments? This is my first time adding to the comments on this site and I am not sure how to do so. Great job Robert for providing this forum for all of us!

  52. Scout

    Shakespeare quote “The prince of darkness is a gentleman”

    Robert has been giving character traits of individuals capable of committing such crimes. I’m paraphrasing here, but things such as: they believe themselves to be very smart, out smarting LE, they are clever as foxes, they’re good at what they do; as examples. My research indicates that child molesters in particular consider themselves to be “professionals”, as God awful as that sounds.

    They really enjoy something known as “Dupers Delight”. They are absolutely professional at convincing someone they are trustworthy especially when it comes to being a trusting adult with children. They place themselves in careers, communities, environments in which they have a access to children. They also build relationships with parents of children to not only have greater access, but to “dupe” kind and caring adults to allow them to be with kids. In fact, they often have a lot of patience in building these relationships because duping others is one more activity that brings them great delight. It is part of their planning and grooming process. It is much more challenging to pull the wool over an adults’ eyes, than to exploit a child. When they are successful, it feeds their perception of being smarter, and helps perfect their “Professionalism”.

    Additionally, they learn from their mistakes by interacting with adults and know how to put others at ease if there are questions. Remember, ASPD know how to play a role. While in the community, they can sustain those roles for periods of time, but usually after 5-7 hours the role starts to unravel. Reread how many people can have multiple varying experiences with same person. Again, hope this clinical picture explains how good especially child molesters are at what they do.

    • VGLante

      Very interesting. I could actually be a naive victim of this type of character…not seeing the true preditor inside.

      Lots of thinking to do in this case.

      Thank you Scout and Robert. Good information!!

      • Looptyloo

        Let me clear a few things up.
        David Erskin & his BIL and a lady found Abby & Libby not IB!!!! Yay I can finally put Eric’s rumor to rest.

        • ej

          Interesting because two others on here corroborated that rumor.

          My question then would be.

          Why did I.B. lawyer up?

          Certainly it wasn’t because of me and YouTube.

          I have an attorney, that is also in contact with the prosecutor.

          No one has told me to stop anything.

        • ej

          Adding to that Looptyloo.
          I know I.B. and have messaged him, with no response.

          We have no less than 12 mutual friends in real life and several more on FB.

          Of course I showed some of are close mutual friends in real life.

          Amazingly they say it’s him on the bridge.

          If someone accused you of such a horrible deed. Would you not say something?

          Wouldn’t a friend, family member or girlfriend send you a message?

          Haven’t all the others that have been POI went in front of a camera to clear themselves?

          The first news story from WTHR at RL’s on March 17 told of a lone searcher finding the bodies.

          The story was retracted. They claim LE made them retract it.

          Fortunately it was sent in a link to me. Several watched it.

          Now as for saying I want attention and I’m a liar.

          Clearly you don’t know me or know others that know me.

          Which leads me to believe your the one lying.

          With all the stuff said on here and multiple people contributing.

          You single out one of only two people who use their true identity on here.

          So why is it that you single me out?

          Here is where I Eric Alter shut you down.

          Simply have Mr. Brumbaugh contact me, my attorney or the Carroll County Prosecutor.

          Or have one of our mutual friends or his girlfriend contact me.

          Moving along, Abby working across the street from the Flora arson is good work for as fresh as the Flora angle is.

          Let’s talk murder for a sec.

          Blacks shoot, stab and beat.

          Hispanics do wild things except they don’t kill kids.

          Whites do all of the above and burn things up.

        • Mer


          I have seen four people named as the person who discovered the bodies. The latest info I have is that they were discovered by a group of searchers. I think the idea that a lone searcher found the bodies, and that he had killed them, is just wrong. From the rumors, I can name 5 men who were in the group that found the girls.

        • ej

          Emily Longnecker reported the first story from RL’s on March 17. It was of a lone searcher finding them.

          Look at whtr for March 17, three videos.

          Her name is listed as one of the reporters there that day.

          She is not present in any of the videos.

          I’m not making this up.

        • Sun

          Is it required that IB be the person who discovered the girls in order to be eligible for consideration as BG?

        • Jen

          Sunflower- “BIL” is Brother-in-law. If IB didn’t find the girls by himself, wouldn’t that make him even more of a suspect? It was my understanding that the DNA matched his, but the defense was that it was “touch DNA”. If he didn’t find them then there couldn’t be touch DNA from him.

        • Sumi

 Start watching this at 1:50. Logan’s neighbor (we know who he is) found the bodies or more exactly; located the bodies, but he was not searching alone. He had one other person (we don’t know who) with him.

          Do you think that this news clip is “inaccurate”?

        • ej

          I think someone thought they got away with burning up a Back family and the people in Flora weren’t to upset.

          Report comes back Arson.

          Ivan may have known the Black family or at least found out someone in Libby German’s family was the arsonist.

          Then he appeared on the bridge and delt some grief to a couple families.

          I think several know. 

          This is why no one made the tip on Brumbaugh.

          Sent from my Sprint Samsung Galaxy® Note 4.

          ——– Original message ——–
          From: “Kirk S. Freeman”
          Date: 5/16/17 9:27 PM (GMT-05:00)
          To: “e.j.alter”
          Subject: Re: Fork in the trail.

          Just thinking out loud that the Flora incident might be a welcomed
          distraction from the bridge murders.

        • ej

          Oops LooptyLoo.

          I left a word out didn’t I?

          You really need to move along to someone else.

          Perhaps a vote should be taken to see anyone wants you around anymore???


      • Sunflower

        Read an excellent book by Gavin de Becker: The Gift of Fear, the audio (c/d) is even better. You can find it on the Evergreen library system if you live in IN. It is life changing / for men, women and children.

        • Looptyloo

          No of Eric’s comments make sense! Fire-Ivan dealt with?-bridge
          All he does is talk in circles! Just come with some theories that would be great and please speak English-thanks in advance

        • ej

          Due to some of LooptyLoo’s phrasing and persistence on fielding comments on a specific person.

          It’s very possible LooptyLoo is Ivan Brumbaugh.

      • VGLante, I meant my most recent post for you.

      • Your intuition and your gut are always to be trusted more than your brain!

        • Looptyloo

          Eric I don’t have time for your BS. Your arrest record proves you are not credible. IB was not at the search period. I’m done with you.
          I am interested in the BS theory possible drug related? Stole jewelry maybe he was trying to rob them for money also.

        • Mer

          It could be drug related, and the jewelry is in someone’s hands Mr. Loo

  53. Clark Kent and Lois Lane

    The Abby who works at Pizza King of Flora is Abby Sandifur, who is married to Joe Sandifur, the other owner.

    Abby Williams was 13 and probably did not have a job, particularly not a job in Flora.

    Owners Joe & Abby Sandifur

    General Manager
    Joe Sandifur
    Abby Sandifur
    Sonia Sieber

    • ej

      Adding to that Looptyloo.
      I know I.B. and have messaged him, with no response.

      We have no less than 12 mutual friends in real life and several more on FB.

      Of course I showed some of are close mutual friends in real life.

      Amazingly they say it’s him on the bridge.

      If someone accused you of such a horrible deed. Would you not say something?

      Wouldn’t a friend, family member or girlfriend send you a message?

      Haven’t all the others that have been POI went in front of a camera to clear themselves?

      The first news story from WTHR at RL’s on March 17 told of a lone searcher finding the bodies.

      The story was retracted. They claim LE made them retract it.

      Fortunately it was sent in a link to me. Several watched it.

      Now as for saying I want attention and I’m a liar.

      Clearly you don’t know me or know others that know me.

      Which leads me to believe your the one lying.

      With all the stuff said on here and multiple people contributing.

      You single out one of only two people who use their true identity on here.

      So why is it that you single me out?

      Here is where I Eric Alter shut you down.

      Simply have Mr. Brumbaugh contact me, my attorney or the Carroll County Prosecutor.

      Or have one of our mutual friends or his girlfriend contact me.

      Moving along, Abby working across the street from the Flora arson is good work for as fresh as the Flora angle is.

      Let’s talk murder for a sec.

      Blacks shoot, stab and beat.

      Hispanics do wild things except they don’t kill kids.

      Whites do all of the above and burn things up.

      • Looptyloo

        Where is the famous you tube video? Ahhh I forgot it had to come down because a libel charge from IB was breathing down your neck!!

        • Mer

          I thought youtube took it down because it violated some rules

        • Looptyloo

          Really have you seen the type of you tube videos that are out there? They have no rules to violate!

        • ej

          LooptyLoo your clueless.
          Your YouTube BS is proof your full sh#t.

        • Barbarino

          That was awesome Looptyloo…It seems EA enjoys blowing smoke up everyone’s asses.

        • Looptyloo

          I’m all about theory & speculation but he was ridiculous. So adamant it was IB yet when you would ask him questions he would blow up on you & start cussing. “An arrest any day now” well that day has come & gone. IB did not find nor touch the girls.
          I think we need to look at david Erskin

        • ej

          May I inquire to your theory?

          If you have posted it I apologize because I have yet to come across it?

          I have seen a lot of speculation from you.

          Why do we need to take a look at David Erskin?

        • Barbarino

          I agree…And since when does anyone “lawyer up” just for submitting a tip?

        • Mer

          I don’t think it was anyone in the search party that morning.

      • Sun

        Welcome back Eric. Do you know any of the people from the P family or S family that have been discussed here? If not, do you have knowledge of them? What are your thoughts regarding their possible involvement with the murders?
        Your insights are always appreciated and interesting to read. Thank you.

        • Looptyloo

          Oh Eric I can’t even deal with your nonsense. Oh an arrest any day now he and his girlfriend blah blah blah

        • ej

          It’s LooptyLoo or me.

          This comment is over the edge.

          I’ll be back when this person if removed.

        • Looptyloo

          I’m sorry Eric can’t handle being held accountable for what he says. He kept saying an arrest any day now……never happened

      • Barbarino

        So what if Looptyloo is IB? What, if any, is the point?

    • PaulC

      On Abbie’s page she states that she worked there. Could be a joke, but that would still imply a connection to there.

      Earlier on this page Robert mentioned Brett was the boyfriend, I think this is a typo. He Ali mentions BS is was at RLs house, I assume you mean Brett. Why would he be having a sleep over? Big difference in age, seems odd.

      I can only find a couple pics of MS on his Facebook page and they are 3 years old, would love to see something more recent.

      • VGLante

        Abby also said on her FB that she worked at Pizza Hut. She was too young to work at either and probably was talking more about her love for pizza.

        There are several families in the area that have the S last name, but I do not know of a 16 year old boy. BS’s oldest child I believe to be 13-14 and was the one who was dating Abby. He is the one who posted on her wall shortly after the killings saying he was sorry he was not able to make it to the bridge to stop the killers.

        I will check out the book. Thank you Sunflower

        I’m still not seeing the MP thing fully or the satanic connection. CP is a pig. The S connection to the whole thing could be dead on. If there can be a MP/CP connection to MS/BS established or if CP possibly impregnated one of the girls it would shift the evidence. I’m leaning S due to the locality of incidents.

        • Kim

          Thanks VGLante, excellent summary.

        • PaulC

          BS and CP are Facebook friends for whatever that’s worth.
          Even if she’s joking about working there, she clearly goes there and has connections to the S family.
          Robert talked of general rumors in the town, but I don’t think anyone has mentioned the specific people involved as being Satanic. BS does like a horror picture group on Facebook, which is not for me, but then again I have Harm OCD.

        • I believe it is against labor laws for a child that young to work, you have to be at least 15 or 16.

      • Kim

        Thanks for sourcing that rumor on the girl (Abby) working there Paul. I don’t think I’ve heard any Delphi local folks say whether they think any of the S family’s capable of doing, or hiring someone to do this, but it’s been clearly stated the young fellow BS had some type of connection with Abby.

        School lets out in Delphi in ~3 wks. If LE has a strong suspect I sure hope the Prosecutor swings into action so kids are safe. I just made another donation since Eric’s back (it can only help in solving this); I hope Lotus returns also.

      • Jen

        I think Robert meant to say that Brydon was the boyfriend, not Brett.

        • VGLante

          Yes. He is 13-14 and Brett’s oldest son that I know of. He is the one who was seen with her at football games and who wrote on her S
          Wall after the killings.

        • That would make sense since a 13/14 year old could not or at least should not have been eligible to drive the vehicle involved with the crime that Robert had mentioned in a prior post.

      • Looptyloo

        Definitely just a joke. She was a “pizza tester” basically meaning she eats a lot of pizza and then it said Pizza Hut use a little common sense no 13-year-old has a job

        • PaulC

          A teenager often will work for family, friends of family, I worked for my uncle doing excavation and land clearing work at that age. It was horrible. But agree she probably didn’t work there, just frequented the place.

  54. Cathie

    BS certainly has a lot of stuff for sale on” Let Go”, aside from the silver coupe, running shoes, hammer, and more.

    • Chipscat

      I looked at your link, why would someone try to sell a very used hammer, the old carhartt sweatshirt…? Seems like things you’d keep until they weren’t usuable anymore or just give away. I kind of want to buy this stuff, what if it’s evidence?

      • Barbarino

        how creepy… looks like BG left his jacket on the hood of the car

      • Do yourself a favor and buy a hammer from the hardware store.

      • Looptyloo

        What if he’s desperate for drug money!
        Selling anything and could have robbed Abby & Libby also

        • Not sure there is anything of value to rob or steal from 2 eighth grade girls besides a Hello Kitty pencil case and a tube of lip moisturizer.

        • Looptyloo

          I heard they had money not a lot but $20 for Libby & $15 for Abby
          They had stopped at the convience store prior to the bridge. Sadly drug heads don’t care if it’s $5 & hello kitty lip stick they will steal and try to resale. But thanks for your opinion

        • Sun

          Looptyloo, agreed that a few dollars means something to a desparate drug addict. But someone appears to have put a lot of energy into killing the girls. A desparate drug addict probably wouldn’t want to take the time or have the physical energy if they are withdrawing. They could have broken into a home or car and likely gotten more money with less effort and risk. Or stolen from a family member. Drug addicts weigh risks because they want to avoid the horrifying prospect of being without drugs in jail or prison.

          Do you have a theory for what happened and, especially, who was involved? There appear to be some hints in your comments, but if you could tie it all together it would be appreciated. Thank you Looptyloo.

    • Scout

      Has anyone informed CCSD or ISP about this? Might be worth a phone call at the minimum.

    • Sun

      Chipscat, I’m with you. It would be a small investment by the FBI to have an agent buy a few of these items, especially the car. Is there a legal reason they couldn’t do that and then analyze the items?

      I can see a murder cleaning up something to sell, and not expecting to need it clean enough to pass an FBI forensics investigation.

      • Chipscat

        Yes Sun totally! As to the legal aspect, it seems like it would be fine because police dig through people’s garbage and can use that evidence… this would be just the same you would think.

        • Scout

          Sun and Chipscat, do either of you know about the possibility of LE obtaining a probable cause subpoena for a search and seizure of said vehicle?

  55. Another perspective

  56. Another perspective

  57. Look up Randy Gravitt on Youtube. He has several videos of the area if you aren’t familiar with site.

  58. There are a lot of theories presented here that are both eye-opening and very feasible. I seem to get a new set of chills with each day I read these posts. There seems, to me, to certainly be enough info here to give LE plenty to do, and possibly enough to solve this crime.

    My questions to everyone are: Do people here think local LE is (a) intelligent enough to solve this crime and (b) impartial enough to solve this crime?

    If the FBI is heavily involved, these might be moot questions. If not, then I think they are fair questions to ask. Very fair.

  59. Mick Johnson

    Just wondering if the main suspect(s) have an alibi that LE has been unable to break to date and that is why things seem to be stalled?

  60. Steven G

    This was posted in the comments on the carroll county scanner page on FB 2-15-17 I have seen this pic a million times but never this one with the brightness turned up i can make out the blue jacket

    • Dlux

      Yeah, saw this a few weeks ago. This was cold and calculated. Stalking can be defined by simply viewing this picture.

  61. Steven G

    this comment was on the Carroll County scanner page on FB posted on the first post about the girls being missing:

    Michelle Wise When I went by there at 3 there was a white car parked along the road with paper plates on it and a dark color car parked in the drive by the gate to go in…but didn’t get any details, didn’t know about this till afterwards…Carroll County Sheriff’s Office Indiana

    • Looptyloo

      I heard the white car was a couple they spoke to them already. I have not heard about the other vehicle. Anyone?

      • Was it the person who followed them from the convenience store and knew that they had $35 on them?

        • Norskrug

          This is the most likely crime theory I have heard so far.

        • Looptyloo: when it comes to stating a theory (which has been requested by a few posters) or explaining details that only you seem privy to, you hide. Why?

        • Kim

          I assume that you’re being sarcastic in this comment (it did make me smile :-). The sealed autopsies and what LE knows about the condition of the bodies should give detectives info on what the BGs opinion was of 13/14yo girls. It’s also hard to imagine him waiting behind the tree all day to get their $35 and Hello Kitty lipgloss.

      • They spoke to a couple? Do you mean a man and woman couple, two men couple, two women couple?

        • Looptyloo

          They did go question the store employee from that day. Initially they thought maybe someone overheard the girls talking about going to bridge & someone follow them from there.

        • ej

          What’s the name of the store LooptyLoo?

    • Mer

      This is spot on, Steven G. I believe the best suspect known to be in the area that day was driving a white car with paper plates.

      • Steven G

        wow interesting!

      • Sun

        Agreed! Mer, where does that leave us? Does anyone know who owns this car? Do you? If so, how might this information affect Robert’s theories?

        • PaulC

          The first home searched was JM and news reports showed a white car. I never heard that a white car was spotted that day, but it would explain why they would search the property. I think he looks like BG, but I think that of most of the names mentioned.

      • Sun

        Also Mer, another commenter pointed out that previous discussion stated IB’s DNA was found on the the girls, which would be highly problematic if IB did not actually find the girls. Do you think that reports of IB DNA were false?

        • Looptyloo

          Yes they were false I have PROOF david Erskin and his brother in law found the girls. David is Abby’s uncle. I can screenshot robert the picture unless someone can tell me how to post a picture on here

        • ej

          At difference does it make LooptyLoo?

          You still have a problem.

          That is the video which you have no control in manipulating.

          I’m calling your bluff in front of everyone.

          Several of us here have corresponded privately and I have decided to leave the video on indefinitely and make another of Mr. Ivan Brumbaugh.

        • ej

          edit: What difference does it make LooptyLoo?

        • ej

          Let’s see your PROOF.

          I have yet to see anything from you that amounts to anything other than meaningless gossip and rumors.

          All of which seems to be standard jibberish around the net.

        • ej

          I can tell everyone that Looptyloo’s claims of a libel charge from Brumbaugh were and are completely false.

          Because of that fact. I will say that Looptyloo is just a person far away from Delphi scrounging across the internet looking for material to leave here as a comment.

          None the less LL claims to have a photograph that proves something.

          I’m calling LL’s bluff, if LL posses a photograph it’s meaningless.

        • Kim

          I’m not sure it matters if IB found the bodies except that, if so, I would consider it a suspicious act as a possible effort to contaminate the bodies and DNA evidence.

          Taking this back as Mer does to what evidence exists: there are two blurry pics and the recording. A voice match is considered forensic evidence. As with DNA, statistical uncertainties for both are always presented in court.

        • Looptyloo

          Eric i am not responding to you anymore. Everything you said is “meaningless” still waiting on the arrest of IB on the case you cracked from your basement. Lol
          What bunch of nonsense
          Robert has been provided the picture of the screenshot with david saying he found the girls. Not IB as you have adamantly & falsely claimed.

        • ej

          Understood Laura.

          I will be waiting for the lawsuit then and enjoying your comments while I wait. 🙂

        • Jen

          So regardless of who found the girls first; just to clarify my question, did the DNA match IB? Or not? Because my point when I asked earlier about that was that it would be an even bigger problem if there was a DNA match to IB and he was NOT the one that found the girls first.

        • Sun

          Someone besides Looptyloo or Eric answer Jen please LOL. We already know your answers.

        • Mer

          Any information about DNA is rumor. LE has not disclosed anything. They will not state whether they have DNA or not.

  62. Sunflower

    With all of the 16,000 tips that have been called in to LE, LE has obviously learned a lot about several potential people and/or groups of people who are involved with victimizing children either through molestation, trafficking, killing, etc. Some of these people may be outstanding and/or prominent people that you would never expect to be involved in this sordid story.

    When it comes to the Pizza King pizzeria….I am a little leery about this and what it holds for Abby. Why this is so is the fact that several months ago, an investigation was launched on several prominent politicians who have communicated (and were caught doing so) via Twitter, Instagram, etc their desires for child pornography, and the solicitation of children through the internet. In order to carry out the messages on the dark web, a stealthy code of supposedly innocuous words is used to hide the real meaning of their malicious intent.

    CP or Cheese Pizza is a code word for child pornography. I also believe that “cheese” stands for the desire for a little girl, while hot-dog is for a little boy. The code words are far too many to describe here on this post, but nonetheless, I do believe that the 16,000 phoned/emailed tips to the FBI, ISP, CPS and elsewhere are connecting a nexus of criminals who are out to kidnap, abduct, molest, rape and kill children.

    • ej

      I also find it extremely interesting.

      The people who claim to be local completely aviod the fire in Flora.

      They don’t want people to know their community and civil leaders are Racist.

      Aryan Brotherhood.

      It’s very ironic that the people on here from Carroll county never mention their population of Aryan’s. 😉

      • Lyn

        I’m not from that area, or even that state, but people were talking about it on this blog when there was a small rumor that Abby Williams worked for the Pizza place near where the fire occurred,or had a connection there. Since this thread is specifically about the Delphi murders, I guess that people talk about connections with these two specific murder victims. I don’t really see how or why Abby and Libby would be a target of someone specifically in “Aryan Brotherhood” thing.

        • ej

          I’m not implying they were a target of that group.

          The most important thing here is what the people from there don’t say and leave out.

          Like their Racist and use the N word regularly.

          Or how during their sincere description of the lacal area, pizza joints and rumors.

          They forgot to mention there were 4 children murdered 8 miles down the road two months before the Bridge​ murders.

          Or that two weeks before the Bridge Murders the Carrol county Sheriff told the public they had just learned they had four homicides of children.

          What they leave out is what they don’t want outsiders to know.

          It’s the missing pieces of the puzzle.

        • Kim

          Lyn, I’m not sure I see what explicit connection these two incidents have either except for one item that they definitely have in common.

          Both of these are tragic homicides (6 childrens lives total) and the ISP/Local LE teams have been unable to solve either of them to date.

        • ej

          It seems as if there are two Murderers on the loose and not just one?

          Who would have thought?

          I wonder if their both local?

        • ej

          Correction 3 murderers on the loose in Carrol County.

          2 from the Bridge as Robert has noted.

          I from a couple months earlier that killed the four kids in the fire.


        • ej

          Also I am going to demonstrate who LooptyLoo is being untruthful.

          And another has been passing misinformed information other attempting to divert attention.

          The video is now public for 24 hours

        • ej


          How LooptyLoo is being untruthful.

        • Sun

          Eric, it’s possible Looptyloo is gauging his/her effectiveness on this site based on the degree to which he or she can engage you. Without feedback from you, Looptyloo might either drift into more of the productive commentary he/she does provide at times, or otherwise risk running afoul of Rules 9 and 10 of Robert’s comments policy. You both have provided interesting insights in my humble opinion.

        • ej

          I’m grateful that Robert allowed me to return.

          Having came to a better understanding of Robert’s Blog.

          I’m not here to insult or degrade anyone in any way.

          If I have or do please let me know, it may not have been intentional.

          LootyLoo made an allegation of me pulling​ the video as a result of starring down the barrel of a libel suit.

          LooptyLoo’s allegation is completely false.

        • ej

          Read this and remember it.

          This combined with diverting is part of a legal system and more.

          We are going to see it a lot.

          There also behavioral faults if not used in proper context in a pro social type of way.

        • Kim

          My humble opinion, Eric did an excellent amateur voicematch in his video (thx for putting it up again). Read the newstory link below… Although not as good as DNA match, FBI expert says it only takes one word to do a good voice match analysis.

          Eric states he turned this in a few days before many of the FBI force packed it up and left Delphi; he may have given them that suspect….”But you have to have a suspect,” Wilxcox said. “You have to have a voice example to make the comparison. The accuracy is pretty high. It is not like DNA where you can go into a database and pick out somebody on the DNA.”

          “Wilcox said it’s about matching the waves in the audio. Investigators can use as little as one word.
          As part of the next steps in the investigation, FBI spokesperson Greg Massa wants members of the community to recall the day the girls went missing and remember if anything seemed off.”

      • VGLante

        Actually, I am local and have noted multiple times that the so called satanist in the area are more likely a group of Klanners and that is the only tie this case would have to the Flora fire.

        I am unsure of the underground satanist movement, but have been aware of a racist undertone sense the march on the square in the mid-80’s.

        Delphi is predominantly Irish from the build of the Erie Canal, but I am sure there might be a few German Arians around town. As far as a brotherhood…it’s probably just group of rednecks who have never left the county and like to take turns pushing sheep through the fence on Friday nights.

        • ej

          How many homicides has Carrol county had in the last 40 years prior to the Flora fire?

        • ej

          I bet it’s less than 6 isn’t it?

          I know you get my point.

          I wasn’t aware there was a group of Klanners in Carrol County?

          So because a local feels that Klanners being responsible for 4 murders 2 months prior to the bridge.

          It’s not necessary to tell the public outside of Carrol county about the fire?

          Not to mention how you just mutely tossed it out there and passed straight by it.

          Seems there was the absence of compassion in your reference to Klanners burning up for Children?

          So having said that you believe active Klanners are responsible for the murders in Flora on November 21. And being a local who has taken up briefing the public outside the area.

          Can you tell us who you might think they are?

          Or how many there are?

          How is it a Carrol county resident knows of active Kan activity?

          There is no disapproval of active Klanners that I detect in what you said?

          No Satinist just active Klanners?

          What’s the names of some of the active Klanners?

          I’m sure the outsiders reading this are anxiously waiting to hear what you have to say?

        • ej

          I’m not trying to dig on you.

          Just making a point.

          One thing for sure.

          The rest of the country would never expected the Small America Town’s People to say they thought Klan had recently burnt 4 kids to death?

          I imagine that wouldn’t have been received very well and people wouldn’t be very eager to call in BG or dig in their wallets and purses to send money?

          Now when I said the locals were scared to call in tips and Delphi had some issues.

          I was told I was full of poopy!

          And I didn’t even mention the Klan?

          LooptyLoo seems to be well aquainted with the area. I wonder if she or he will back up this underground racism in Carrol County?

        • Mer

          Initially the Flora fire was considered to be an accident–not arson. An investigation found that accelerants were used in the fire. If it was intentionally set, then it’s an arson with a possible racist motivation.

          I brought the fire up because this stream on the blog is about possible motives in the murder of AW and LG. If one of them (AW or LG) overheard information about the fire, then someone would have a motive to kill AW and/or LG. The link between the crimes was supported by the incorrect idea that AW worked at the Pizza King in Flora, which is across the street from the arson-murder of four children. That idea fell apart because AW did not work at the Pizza King.

          I don’t think there is a strong link between the crimes. How would a presumed racist arsonist know where the girls would be on Feb 13?

          If the fire in Flora was intentionally set with racial motives, then it’s the biggest racially motivated crime in Indiana in decades.

        • ej

          Perhaps the Arsonist is not the person on the bridge?

          Someone stewed for two weeks after the arson report came back on the January 28 and no one knocked on any doors to investigate.

          Any kids on the trail would be from Carroll county presumably.


          pay back to White Trash for doing what they did in Flora.

          What if BC was a Black Man?

          What relavance would the Flora burning of

          Black Children mean then “motive”

          You locals know these answers and so do I.

          This was hidden from the American public.

          I imagine if I’m correct the Feds will be coming back to town like everyone wants???

        • Kim

          I concur with Mer’s statement above (my comments always appear many hours after I post them so not sure where they will be). But if anyone has information about that arson (it’s been concluded it was arson ?) and motivations, I would encourage them to raise it to the attention of the ACLU, Southern Poverty Law Center or the NAACP.

          All of those organizations care deeply about such incidents and have the ability to send in staff and legal representatives to achieve justice for the families of those 4 dead children. It is clear that Delphi has many problems.

        • PaulC

          Abby’s rumored boyfriend LH, his dad belongs to a religion called Asatru, basically think Vikings. They worship Odin and other non Christian dietys with ceremonies. To Christians that could appear to be satanic. This religion is attractive to white supremacist. I’m not suggesting this guy did it, but he and others that belong to this group are scary dudes. So much hate and anger.

        • Jen

          It would make more sense that LH was Abbie’s boyfriend and not BS. On LH’s fb profile page it says “rip my little princess 2-13-17😔”.

        • Sun

          Organized racism exists in Indiana. KKK had the densest membership by population in the 1920s – 30% of the population, which can be surprising to some considering how relatively far north it is. A Grand Dragon lived in the Rockville/Mansfield area southwest of Delphi I believe into the 1980s. I think his son is still there. KKK members in full dress would be on the Rockville town square. It was by no means a secret. I’m a little hazy, but recall reading Indiana being this way has to do with previous white migration from the South. It has a bit of a schizophrenic history, not unlike Missouri who resultingly had some horrible issues during the civil war – bushwhackers etc.

          But respectfully, it is difficult to understand how there can be a connection to Abby and Libby’s murder. As Mer notes, we have no reason to believe the girls had personal knowledge of the Flora fire being started. Someone randomly retaliating for the Flora fire seems unlikely, not least because someone retaliating wants you to know they’re retaliating. It’s not very effective if done in a way that people can’t even figure it out. And LE is saying BG likely participated in the crime; he is not black. (Actually, if I started the Flora fire and wanted to shut the girls up, I’d try to purposely make their murders look like retaliation by blacks for the Flora fire.)

          LH’s father (BH?) might be scary with scary friends. But scary in what way? Paganism involves deities and rituals, and some favor the Nordic variety to draw white supremacist value, but nothing in the religion itself appears to prescribe or condone evil, violence or sacrifices. Especially against young white girls. That would have to be a first.

          Violence committed on behalf of the H family could be explained if other factors are involved per Robert’s theory (pregnancy etc).

          If we are now talking about Hs, what do you locals know? Who’s BH? I can’t find anything on him. Who’s the family?

        • ej

          If BC was Black the motive could easily be veiwed as revenge.

          Why does that person who seeks revenge need to be Black?

          Blacks in Flora come from Lafayette.

          Low income people hard on their luck.

          Go through a homeless shelter in Lafayette.

          One particular one if they have Children.

  63. Steven G

    ej what does IB drive?

    • Looptyloo

      IB did not find these girls! Can we put this rumor to rest. I have who found them. It was Abby’s uncle. Ivan was no where around these girls.

    • ej

      I don’t know. I was told two years ago he drove a black Doge truck.

    • Looptyloo

      IB did not find the girls

      • ej

        LooptyLoo I put my video back up in your honor.

        I’m ready too stare down that libel barrel 😉

        You know a lot don’t you.

        I’m curious in knowing what you know? Know what I mean?

        Your neighbor says there are Racist in your neighborhood?

        LooptyLoo is that true?

        • Barbarino

          What, if any, is the point? It’s clearly NOT BG,The voices are’nt even the same and most importantly NO arrests. You appear to want ALL of EVERYONE’s attention but claim on your video that the viewers are “Media Whores” that title seems to fit you BETTER than anyone, TROLL!!! LMMFAO

        • ej

          You must have been listening from under your bed when I was grudge​ fucking your mother’s asshole? …You earned a smiley 🙂

        • ej

          I think someone and their girlfriend are a little freaked out to see their motive for murder on display.

          Maybe LooptyLoo can contribute on this particular​ theory?

        • Barbarino

          Hha…You are a goddamn genius ALTER-EGO, that’ s why you didnt pass go or collect your 200 dollars! Loose lips sink ships and you have capsized, now you can go drown in your bottle of Jack… DOUCHEBAG

        • Barbarino

          I’ve had a bad vibe about you since you busted in here and it’s only getting worse….You are probably the BG, No need for your responses, decisions have already been made

        • ej

          I find the denial mixed with anger most interesting.

          It reminds me of a monkey trying to force the square peg through the round hole.

        • ej

          It’s been 24 hours LooptyLoo.

          I control the video.

          Not the barrel of Libel.

          Your not credible.

        • Mer

          Is it possible to get a vehicle down below the bridge on the south side? Is there access to a maintenance road or trail beside the creek?

        • Barbarino

          Fill us in on the details ALTER-Ego…. since only YOU would know

        • Kim

          Barbarino, you seem to be WAY over-reacting to ej’s tip to FBI. With very threatening tone. What decisions have been made??

        • Sun

          It’s becoming increasingly difficult to read past these flame comments. Lest we forget why we are here, perhaps you could cool down by visiting the FB page of Abby’s mother. She updated her cover and profile photos on Mother’s Day.

        • Looptyloo

          EA You are the poster child of bipolar and need serious help. I will no longer address any of your hot air nonsense

        • ej

          Hmmm me having control of that video and your claim of starring down the barrel of libel being false.

          Clearly represents that you are not credible and your convenience store theory displays your lack of intelligence.

          If I gain possion of your screen shot I will contact Mr. Erskin and discuss it’s authenticity.

          Those of you paying Robert and making threats need to keep in mind your method of payment and IP address is a tell all.

          Move along.

        • Sun

          Good news, Eric.

          Looptyloo said in these comments that he/she’s not addressing you anymore.

          Babarino said he/she has applied a self-imposed ban.

      • Looptyloo: I am curious…..with all that you seem to know, by any chance, did you inform the police or FBI of your findings or knowledge? If not, who is telling you all of these details about the color of the vehicle, the amount of money each girl had on them at the time leading up to the crime, etc? Also, do you live near Delphi or in Indiana?

  64. Mer

    I think when all is finally done,
    they are jailed or dead
    except for one

  65. Barbarino

    Kim…I dont agree with the video or reposting it, nothing is concrete. What if I made a video of ALTER-EGO being the BG? Would it be right? what if his name was released? i dont think dropping names or making YouTube videos of POI is the answer when you have absolutely NOTHING to base your claims on. To Rob and everyone else, I’m sorry for the tone and I’ll just ban myself. Good day

    • Astro

      Not buying the Klan angle. Been in this area my whole life. Klan is not active. Aryans either.

      • Sun

        Astro, your comments have been very interesting. As a local, what are your latest thoughts on the case?

        • Astro

          Don’t live in Delohi I live 20 miles away. I know one of POI but there is no reason for me to believe he is any way involved. BH. Outsiders may view central Indiana as backwoods and hillbilly but it isn’t There is no active Klan or Aryans here. Yes there may be a few radicals that think like that but they are everywhere. Maybe in your back yard. Think about this. Chicago is an hour and a half away so is Indianapolis Highway 65 is 20 minutes away that runs from Gary , Chicago to Louisville and beyond I go back and forth between locals and transients to someone that used social media. Unsure of a motive

        • Astro

          Carroll County is one of the smallest counties around here. Mostly rural and a farming community known for pork production. Situated between Kokomo to the East (50000) and Lafayette to the West (70000). Lafayette obviously more progressive with Purdue and culturally diverse. I have even heard a theory involving an Islam camp 20 miles away???

        • Astro

          Logansport to the North (22000) and home to a state mental hospital located on SR 25 that also runs through Delphi. Not much South other than Frankfort. (15000) Pretty rural area. I have been involved in the Criminal Justice system for years

      • ej

        That’s completely false you maintain your denial with several substantial issues present in the video.

        Your denial is yours. Not the burden of others.

        You have expressed your opinion and it has been noted.

        It was not me who brought the Klan into this nor is it in my theory.

        It was another local on here.

        I am well aware of the environment I left behind.

        I have no knowledge of the Klan or active gangs.

        Every so often Hispanic youth do gang stuff.

        There is Racism.

        The person on here who brought the Klan did so as maybe they were behind the Flora fire.

        I only ask the next logical questions.

        Your behavior from denial burdens us enough.

        Now it appears that you chose to demonstrate the same behavior on your not having the facts straight.

        Specifically​ coming after me.

        Your hiding something.

        One of the somethings is your a Racist. Thus such discussion is deflected and diverted by the Racist.

        I wonder what else?

        It appears your only here for me?

        You want my attention I can feel it in the air.

        I’m here for you . Tell me all about it.

        • Scout

          Eric, has your understanding of the motive changed from your original posts to now, after reading all of Robert’s information? And do you suspect a woman was involved? Appreciate.

        • ej

          Scout, to the first part of your question.

          Yes, but I must say in the beginning and through out I was actually at a loss for a strong enough motive to result in murder.

          I personally ruled out rape because of the press conference nine days after they found the victims. When they announced discovery of DNA from the “crime scene”..

          Having ruled out a sexual motive I was at a loss as to a worthy motive.

          The second part of your question. “Do I think a woman was involved”

          Yes, but I can’t offer anything​ to base that on other than L.E. originally seemingly pondering two suspects.

          Combined with the person whom I suspect on the bridge appearing in some pictures on an FB profile on February 19.
          The profile it’s self is suspect to many questions.

          I am not trying to shape or influence anyone’s theory.

          Only asking for people to be rational and ask for an explanation before they make the type of comments they have made towards me.

          I’m going to offer an example of what seems odd to me in regards to the upper paragraph and YouTube videos.

          The video on YouTube of the person in the white T shirt with the Spielberg soundtrack.

          No one voices any contempt?

          Even though, that individual has been cleared by L.E., appears right handed and doesn’t significantly resemble BG.

        • Mer

          IB does not have a motive

        • ej

          You are not a spokes person for I.B.

          I know of your time on spent with him on mainstreet.

          Let’s not do this today please.

        • Astro

          How do I find this video that is being discussed?

        • Mer

          ?What would his motive be?

        • ej

          Who commented in the beginning he was an artist posing with his handicapped grandson and he was a kind gentle soul?

          It’s relavant to a motive.

        • Kim

          Mer…. I’m not a psychiatrist, but let me ask you what is the motive of those who fall into the SK category?? What if you have a milder degree of BTK mindset for example, someone controlling who feels his life is spiraling out of control. One definite feature is a disrespect for human life, the ASPD that Scout discussed. Not all those who kill are full SK’s. It is possible to have a mental break and release the tension by acting out.

          A life with trauma and violent events can be a symptom of such personality, or lead to such a break with a violent assault/acting out. Without going into too much detail: 19yo son shoots self in head at home, failed businesses and marriage, estranged from family, a past history of child molestation (albeit before Registry existed), ~3yrs ago (~2013-14) home burns down with wife barely escaping with her life (either during divorce/shortly after), history of problems with women and co-workers at slaughter-house. Most of these items are available on Google search, other (child molestation) put forth by people who know him here. I believe e.j.when he explains he woke up and realized that he knew the voice and guy.

          Eric also drew an excellent mental profile of him from the 9yrs he knew him at the slaughterhouse. As best I can tell E.j. concluded his work relationship w/guy as a friend and didn’t want it to be him. He has said that other co-workers agree also and are currently afraid.

          How much does it take to make a man break……? Maybe that is what trips society up in finding SKs and other random murders….. that dogged insistence that the person must have a motive (someone stole something, fired someone etc…..). I think we should defer to Scout, perhaps Sun, or others who are in the mental health field here….. a broken mind and history of violence can certainly produce it’s own motive.

          That being said, I’m not fingering anyone in this situation, that is the job and responsibility of LE; I wish to God they would do it.

    • Barbarino, hostile tone applies only to me and Alpha. You all can have as hostile a tone as you want towards each other, but if it gets too out of hand, other commenters might vote to boot you off, or if it turns into endless name calling hogging up the comments, I think that’s a violation of Rule 9 or 10, I forget which.

  66. Kim

    Barbarino, I don’t see it your way. The video does not mention any names at all.

    As a mom of 2 kids, I’m pretty sure I’d be thanking e.j. in tears for keeping the focus on the forensic evidence the FBI put out there and for presenting an evidence-based hypothesis…. especially if local LE,is unable to solve this seemingly local crime themselves.

    If I were the subject of such a voice-match video and innocent, I’m pretty sure that I would say that although unpleasant the similarities are unmistakeable and I acknowledge the passion to achieve justice for these girls.

    What I don’t understand is your overreaction and seeming threats over this. I respect you for removing yourself.

  67. Mer

    I did not bring up the Ku Klux Klan. I merely said the fire in Flora could be racially motivated. There are approximately 3,000 to 6,000 members of the Ku Klux Klan in the entire US. I doubt if more than 1 or 2 live in Carroll County, Indiana. They have no power. They are not community leaders. They are pathetic. They are also almost nonexistent. There was no KKK conspiracy to burn the home in Flora.

    • Astro

      I know I am just saying there isn’t a high population or involvement here. I am just stating what I observe not attempting to badger or argue. Just trying to give some insight to the community and surrounding communities

    • Sun

      I brought up KKK, guilty as charged.

      The concept of some kind of local culture gone awry a la Deliverance seems unlikely. We’re all too modernized and connected. Even BS posted kitten and recipe videos on his website. I think today’s rural societal issues pertain largely to drugs, mental illness, possibly enhanced by familial dysfunctionality.

    • Sun

      My point really about the KKK was to get over the hump with Eric that yes there are racist people.

      By the way the Rockville area KKK were not very pushy but they did exist as did the grand dragon. And they did not hide it.

      But I think all that is unrelated to the girls.

    • Cathie

      Thank you!

      • Cathie

        After looking @ BS FB..I do not think he would be involved unless he was so F’d up on booze, etc…who knows..JMO..

        • Sun

          BS did post something interesting on his FB. Apology for an apparently deleted post where he accused a woman of cheating on him with multiple other men. He apologized to her and his friends. His son and other S family members replied basically that they weren’t happy with him etc. One said he still needed improvement. So he does have lapses in judgement. And his family is not always thrilled with him. But again, murdering two young teenage girls he doesn’t seem to know well if at all… I don’t see it.

        • Sun

          I’m always amazed at people making their FB pages public. Just don’t get it.

        • ej

          Used in a different context people can intentionally​ use public posts to manipulate perceptions.

          ie. Trum and Twitter

          I myself have found FB useful for what does not appear in there public profiles.

          Example. Two people use the relationship status and it says they have been in a relationship for blank amount of time?

          But the person, one or both doesn’t appear to be in a relationship because no metion of or pictures appear in their timeline to corroborate the relationship status

          Another easier example to understand, that most of us useing social media have experienced​ is.

          When the regularity of posts stop and someone contacts the person asking where they have been or what they were doing that week.

          I don’t know where any of the names discussed live other than RL of course.

          I’m being serious when I say this.

          Something inspired motivation for people to murder.

          I’ve read from others on here who seem to be educated on such matters.

          Can someone generally detail the statical reasons that people commit murder and the ranking of common to least common.

          This is only my opinion.

          But sometimes it’s best to stop and go back to the beginning and apply things that have been learned.

          I’m not even sure what the beginning is anymore or how to weed out the disinformation.

          My opinion also is. People wanting to hide things are untruthful.

          As once being a local the absence of a colossal amount of issues in the community had left me thinking that certain things are being left out, why?

          Why are the bread crumbs on the trail being swept away?

        • Sun

          The formatting was eliminated on the last post. “Known person” is the second category.

        • Mer

          I remember now why I’ve never been able to get past the beginning of the Sound and the Fury. I’d like to read it, just can’t take the beginning.

        • In case you are wondering, BS and MS are cleared as far as I am concerned. We had very little on either man anyway other than some circumstantial stuff. Now they still may have committed the crime, but now their main motive is blown to dust. Brydon S was not Abbie’s bf and he was not the father of that baby. So there goes the motive for both S. men, blown to smithereens. They could still have done it for some other reason, but why? Neither man strikes me as the type to commit horrific rape-murders of young teenage girls. MS is a dark fellow all right, but there’s no evidence that he is THAT dark.

      • Cathie

        JMO , the KKK are not involved in the murder of Libby and Abby.

      • Sun

        It seems like there are two possibilities:

        Stranger, sexual sadist/sociopath/whatever Robert calls these people. But if this were the case, it would very likely have to be one person. Not impossible for there to be two, but very unusual. And a local or former local. Likely somehow tracking or in contact with the girls in order to be able to corner them so effectively.
        Known person/people who was/were desperate and angry. Ruling out money for drugs, racist retaliation. Not just someone scared of something being found out. Someone scared who was either angry to begin with, or flew into a rage after the abduction.

        The last sentence seems the most likely. A person doesn’t kill someone merely to silence them and plan to do what happened here. There was some element of rage.

        • Kim

          Sun’s 7:07am summary is exactly how I see this. Detectives/LE who know the conditions of the bodies hold all the final answers.

          I heard somewhere that seemingly random, one person murders are the hardest to solve, explaining why many SKs can operate for so long. BK could have been a first-timer, not a SK, but perhaps similar motive of rage, frustration on vulnerable target.

          I want to commend everyone on RLs site for a thorough and thoughtful discussion on the case. Although difficult I think no stone was left unturned. I stopped waking up thinking about this weeks ago after it became clear to me it was a local perp who would likely be caught.

          I cannot imagine that the FBI/ISP don’t have an excellent idea who did this. I hope an arrest will be made soon. As to the other problems in Delphi, perhaps Robert wants to have a discussion of the Flora fires and killing of the 4 young African-American girls. Sounds like some civil rights groups, perhaps the U.S. justice dept. needs to be involved.

        • Kim

          My final thought relating to Sun’s great summary of the type of person who would do this. I’m not as hung up anymore on why/whether the perp panicked after his act and with his adrenalin still going dragged their bodies across the stream to plant them on RLs (perhaps that seemed logical to him at the time), or whether he had a car nearby and took them to the barn.

          Of course, these two scenarios have awful and differing consequences for the victims. LE certainly knows which of these occurred. If I had to guess right now I’d go with the former, it is simplest, if illogical, but somehow it fits for frustrated/confused first-timer.

        • Henry

          EJ and Sun- good questions!
          Of violent victimization the statistics say:
          1% serial killer related
          36% related to a stranger
          63% related to a loved one, family member, friend, acquaintance
          ….and why this blog stays focused on locals.
          Also, I’ve copied a link to an article related to satanic rituals specifically abortions. There are components of this article that beg questions related to this case:
          Purposeful pregnancy to result in sacrifice
          Ritual starts at 11:45 pm. Spell begins at 12:00 am, the witching hour. Actual death at 3:00. a.m.. Devil’s hour.
          Importance of having blood on the hands of the aborter.
          Killing of an unborn is the goal.
          Keep an open mind…..why bring the bodies to the river to be found? A message that the sacrifice was done? Mutilation without rape could be an important clue in this case. Someone close to the girls believe in satanic rituals?
          All dependent on either/both girls being pregnant and not raped.
          Btw….not much help in statistics that abortion rituals exist. The FBI doesn’t speak to it.

        • Mer

          There are more than two possibilities.
          This blog is full of speculation about serial killers, Satanists, Nordicists, pregnancy, child molestation. And, of course, the KKK.
          It’s very likely they saw some criminal activity in the area, and were eliminated because of what they saw.
          There was no serial killer, no satanic ritual, no attempt to end a pregnancy, no plan for murder by someone they knew. They were just in the wrong place, they saw something, and a complete stranger decided he should kill them.

        • Dorje

          This whole thing on Satanist sounds like in the 80s. People thought they were out there kid napping blue eyed blonde haired kids left and right. From what I understand was mostly hysteria. From what I’ve researched Satanists don’t literally sacrifice people or animals. They have a moto I don’t remember all of it. It’s more or less so what you want. As long as you aren’t harming others. So what this means is have all the sex, drugs, booze, etc etc. As long as you’re not hurting someone else.

        • Sun

          Mer, this is very interesting. Why do you think this?

          Was it something that the girls saw while hiking? Or was it a plan for murder later by someone they did not know?

          My concern with this theory is: either it was 1) an immediate response to something that happened, in which case it’s unlikely he would have been prepared as he seems to have been (gun, garroting wire, etc) or 2) planned in response to an earlier event, in which case it’s hard to imagine him showing what I can only call rage – brute force impalement, reported mutilation, garroting etc. With forethought he’d plan something most likely to meet his goal – quickly and definitively making the girls disappear for good.

          Do you still think they were taken to the Mears barn?

        • Kim

          To Mer’s inadvertent witness of criminal activity theory….. maybe, but generally the perp confronts the witness directly at time of encounter not stalking them from behind a tree with the bridge as a trap. Also, silencing two young girls wouldn’t necessarily involve maiming the bodies (particularly their female parts) if that was indeed done.

        • Sun

          Mer, what you say reminds me of this exchange below. What does it mean: Father and son, local, the girls don’t know them, were or are currently in jail… Brenda and John, where are you?!! Have we discussed this father/son on this site yet? Throw us a bone!

          Brenda commented on May 12: “This is also what I have heard, John. And I have a VERY strong connection to the case.”

          She was commenting on this from John:
          “The information that I have gathered points to a father and son being involved and that the girls if not raped were seriously mutilated. The girls did not know the man on the bridge or else they would have stated his name during the recording.
          Both men are locals and knew the area well. The police are on to these guys and every day they are building their case.
          Both men are either currently in jail or recently have been.
          I do not believe Abbie was targeted due to her pregnancy. These girls were watched and the girls fell into a well planned trap.
          Also, the rumors about satanic markings are crap and is a side show. The killer brutally used his weapon to cut these girls bodies up.”

        • Mer


        • Yes, there was rage and something happened at the scene of the crime that caused the killer(s) to lose control and things went wildly out of line and off course. They freaked.

          I believe that the killer(s) are reading this blog and using other people to seek information. Linguistically, I am quite talented with auditory/holistic language analysis. I’ve busted people before.

        • Henry

          I agree Sunflower. Sometimes it feels like distractions come out of no where. This blog has already proposed several things. Lets stay with the original line of thought:
          2 people from the area
          Knew the barn would be empty
          May be a father son team
          Might be Satanists
          One wears black tennis shoes with white stripe
          May show injuries from the fight
          May have a reason to quiet the girls
          Drove a vehicle, possibly a car to the bridge
          Demonstrated a tremendous amount of rage toward the girls

          My contribution: might have used a person that the girls didn’t know to get them to go down the hill. Then this person leaves since he played his role.

        • Sun

          I hope that is incorrect Mer. I visited a county scanner Facebook page. Someone commented that this happened. Several other different people responded angrily and said, “the families did not want that information released”. Is my conclusion correct?

          I am still also very interested in the rest of your thoughts.

  68. Sun

    Did Libby have a boyfriend? The older man talked about a pregnancy and seemed surprised it would be his. Implying his awareness of someone else in the picture?

    • Astro

      I am kind of stuck on BS and CP. BS FB page has nothing prior to March yet posts all the time. A sudden urge to post he is going to church and being baptized. Comments from relatives are odd. Something doesn’t seem right there. CP is allegations are true then he is ….IDK just not right

      • Cathie

        I agree with you Astro, however, he states he weighs 290 lbs.. Is BG that heavy, I wish LE had given an idea of height, weight of the suspect.

        • Cathie

          Also, I am confused re the speculation of pregnancy, both Abby and Libby or?

        • Looptyloo

          He also says he gained a TON of weight in the past 3 months! Maybe trying to change is body type

  69. greeneyedpea

    New here on the board, but I have contributed to Robert. I have relatives in small town Indiana (not in Delphi, Flora or near there), and am so shocked at these crimes (the murders and fire).

    Anyway, and I’m not jumping on you EJ, but I am trying to understand what you are saying. Sometimes very cryptic. Can you please explain what you mean in these two segments of your very recent post? Thanks!

    “Combined with the person whom I suspect on the bridge appearing in some pictures on an FB profile on February 19.
    The profile it’s self is suspect to many questions.”

    Who are you talking about?


    “I’m going to offer an example of what seems odd to me in regards to the upper paragraph and YouTube videos.

    The video on YouTube of the person in the white T shirt with the Spielberg soundtrack.”

    What “Youtube videos”? What “person in the white T-shirt…”?

    It’s very hard to follow your references. Maybe I haven’t read everything posted, so I apologize if this stuff is obvious to you all. Thanks!

  70. PaulC

    I finally watched videos of the bridge an I can’t believe how dangerous it looks. I would rather not walk on it an now way I would let my kids on it. In regards to the case, I can’t imagine it is a popular destination and Icant see someone just waiting there for a random victim. Also, I can see why they killer would feel good about not getting caught out there. I continue to believe that they were brought deeper in the woods and left there. It makes no sense to bring them somewhere and then return them to the woods.

  71. Dorte

    Carroll County students collect bottle caps that are melted to form benches to honor the six murdered girls.

    • Sun

      Bless these dear children. To live in a community experiencing such horrors, and to work as a team through their grief…

      There’s something going right in that community if these are the kinds of children it produces.

  72. Comments on this thread are now closed. Take it over to the new Delphi Murders Comments Thread.