Pan-Aryanism: White World Tour

Pan-Aryanism goes beyond the Stormfront criteria and says there are Whites in North Africa, the Arab World, Turks, Georgia, the Caucasus, and even in Afghanistan, Pakistan and India, although true Whites are few in the last few countries. Nevertheless, there are some very interesting people in those three countries who are clearly White. These seem to be the remains of the ancient Aryans who populated the region.

Pan-Aryanists refer to White North Africans, White Turks (35%) and White Arabs as White while stating nonetheless that many North Africans, Turks and Arabs who are not White. How do you tell the difference? Well, try looking at them. Determination of whether someone is White or not is generally just observational.

I would go further and class all Turks as White and even include quite a few of the odd Uighurs. The people of the Stans just seem too mixed to be White. Same with Tatars, Bashkirs, and a number of other Turkic groups in Russia. They just seem too mixed with Asians. A very interesting question in the case of people like the Khanty and the Mansi, who like the Uighurs are nearly 50-50 White/Asian. I suppose we would just go observationally here to determine who is White and who isn’t.

I would throw in all of the peoples of the Caucasus – Chechens, Ingush, Ossetians, Circassians, Dagestanis, Nogays, Cherkessiasns, Kabardians, Balkars, and Karachays as White because they just are. The Azeris are also clearly White, as are the Assyrians further to the south in the Middle East.

Most Arabs are White, but at some point, some of them just are not. Quite a few Gulf Arabs would probably not make the cut. Look at Prince Bandar. Not a White man. Most Yemenis would be thrown in. Many Egyptians especially in the north would be thrown in, but this would have to be done on a one to one basis. Many Egyptians, especially in the south, are too mulattized to be White. Same with Libya. Qaddafi was White, but many Libyans are either Black or too mulattized.

Most if not all Tunisians are White as are most Algerians, at least those in the north. Most Moroccans are White except for a number of Blacks in the south. Tuaregs are clearly not White, nor are the Beja, Ethiopians, Somalians, Djiboutians, etc. Eritreans are a tough call, but they are probably not White enough.

That’s it for Whites around the world.

90 Comments

Filed under Afghanistan, Africa, Algeria, Arabs, Assyrians, Azeris, Blacks, Caucasus, Chechens, Circassians, Dagestanis, East Africa, Egyptians, Eritrea, Ethiopia, Eurasia, Europeans, Georgia, India, Ingushetia, Libya, Middle East, Morocco, Near East, Near Easterners, North Africa, North Africans, Pakistan, Race/Ethnicity, Racism, Regional, Russia, Somalia, Somalis, South Asia, Tunisia, Turks, Uighurs, White Nationalism, Whites, Yemenis

90 responses to “Pan-Aryanism: White World Tour

  1. James Schipper

    Dear Robert

    When members of all races have exactly the same rights, as I of course favor, then racial classifications have no practical importance. However, those who wish to politicize race usually are also obsessed about racial purity. White nationalists don’t seem to be in a hurry to embrace West Asians and North Africans as racial brothers. Broadening the definition of whites to include some non-Europeans makes scientific sense, but is politically irrelevant.

    At the theoretical level, we should be aware that races are not equal, and at the political level, we should insist on equal rights, equal duties and equal standards for all citizens regardless of race.

    Support for legal equality for all citizens does not imply any immigration policy since foreigners who wish to emigrate aren’t citizens. The best immigration policy for any Western country today is a very low level of immigration. That way the racial composition of the population will not change, which should make most people feel more secure.

    Depoliticize race and severely restrict immigration, that’s the best combination.

    Regards. James

  2. Phil78

    My few cents would be this, For the people of the Middle East that cluster with Levantines Over Gulf Arabs are probably “white” as that conforms somewhat with the pre-Aryan wave of neolithic Farmer Europeans.

    This conforms roughly to the Armenoid race of old anthropology regarding such a region, though Actual neolithic population originally where either Meditteranean and/or Alpine.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Armenoid_race

    Non European-offshoots of Aryans would like conform to the The “Irano-Afghan” type, “non white” Arabs possible being somewhere between Mediterranrean appearances and something else inconsistent called “Arabid”. Hard to tell.

    http://s1.zetaboards.com/anthroscape/topic/4740726/1/

    Nonetheless A European- Caucasus/ Iranian/Anatolia/- Arabian association seems to correlate based on these results. Note- Iranians and Turks lean toward Eastern Europe, Levantine populations lean to the South/East, The Caucasus between West and Eastern Europe,.

    http://journals.plos.org/plosgenetics/article?id=10.1371/journal.pgen.1003316

    More Northern (relative to the Middle East) Meditterranean populations like Pontic ones of the Baltic States, Turkey and Eastern Europe would likely be white by your standards.

    Berbers, As far as I can research, are primarily made up of Med. in phenotype, but Where to label “white” is Hard as I’m not clear on their relative genetic affinities.

    What I can say, Phenotype regardless, The genetic relations of Arabs seem to correspond to the migrations of Arabid populations based on my earlier link West Eurasian Genetics and the Arabid Wiki page.

    I suppose that would suggest that it isn’t in terms of pigmentation, though given how it was described as untanned on the page you may have to go by the individual.

  3. TRASH Jr.

    PHIL
    Figure 2 would seem to indicate people from the Caucuses came through Turkey to Europe directly, since the current Levantine people on average are more distantly related to Western Europeans.

    Is this possible?

    • Phil78

      I guess I need to give some disclosure on european Migrations.

      While there were likely closer relatives to modern Euros in that regions, it wasn’t exactly one stream from one place that gave tise to modern europeans but rather several.

      http://www.unz.com/gnxp/the-great-human-disruptions/

      Doing more research, the Caucasus people once again are intermediate, this time between Euros in general an Middle easterns.

      What more likely is that they have a more similar overall Composition to Europeans, or that they have a more recent common ancestry.

      • TRASH Jr.

        “What more likely is that they have a more similar overall Composition to Europeans, or that they have a more recent common ancestry.”

        Ah yes, now I remember RR talking about this. I got a ftDNA autosomal DNA test. It included for those with significant European ancestry results a test of ‘paleohistoric origins’ hunter, farmer, or Asian steppe invader. I’ll see if I can post an example.

    • Phil78

      http://www.peopleofar.com/2015/02/25/armenians-have-a-high-genetic-affinity-to-ancient-europeans/

      Knew it. I remember reading of a Neolithic association, but figured a later bronze age population around the time of ARyans was what made the association so much closer.

      Would’ve arrived to this sooner, It’s just that much of the old Indo-european languages of the region is extinct.

      “http://www.languagesoftheworld.info/russia-ukraine-and-the-caucasus/peoples-languages-genes-caucasus-introduction.html

      Although both Armenians and Azeris are linguistically related to populations outside the Caucasus (Indo-European and Turkic, respectively), genetic studies indicate that both groups are more closely related genetically to their geographic neighbors in the Caucasus than to their linguistic relatives elsewhere (e.g. Nasidze and Stoneking 2001; Nasidze et al. 2001). Like other Caucasian populations, the gene pools of both Armenians and Azeris are intermediate between those of Europeans and Near Eastern populations of the northern Fertile Crescent: the Turks and the Kurds, as well as Iraqi and North African Jews (see chart).

      Read more: http://www.languagesoftheworld.info/russia-ukraine-and-the-caucasus/peoples-languages-genes-caucasus-introduction.html#ixzz4gMPy9KwP

      And it seems that their neolithic DNA is the closests of all Near Easterners to ancient Europeans.

      http://www.nature.com/ejhg/journal/v24/n6/full/ejhg2015206a.html

      • TRASH Jr.

        PHIL
        the product I purchased lists three groups.

        “Metal age invaders” coming from the Caucus mountains over modern day Ukraine to Eastern and continental Europe.

        “Hunters” traveling from modern day North-East Africa through the levant to Europe.

        and “Farmers” traveling from modern day Syria/Iraq. They may have resided in the Fertile crescent and already had agriculture, leaving as desertification set in (hence, they arrived later).

        • Phil78

          In a nutshell yeah, that’s pretty much the ancestral groups.

          So basically Levantine people are mainly the farmers while Caucasus people are both the farmers and the metal age invaders like Europeans.

  4. Dingo

    Some Georgians look as White as anyone. Are they technically not Aryan though? Would the original Aryans looked similar? Very interesting and beautiful people regardless.

    • Phil78

      The original Aryans, from what’ve read, were more Dark compared to say Northern Europeans but still had more light features than other groups of it’s time frame.

      I believe they were long head however, people of Georgia I believe are more Shortheaded.

  5. Tulio

    I think you’re going to have a very hard time convincing most white people that Qaddafi is white. I tend to share your your lax views of what defines white and even I think Qaddafi is quite a stretch.

    On the other hand, I do so people from the MENA are who are unquestionably white. For example I’d never think of Hasan Piker as anything other than white. He’s from Turkey.

    http://scontent-sea1-1.cdninstagram.com/t51.2885-15/s480x480/e35/13388725_970648189714380_1517493065_n.jpg?ig_cache_key=MTI2Njg1MDQzNTUxOTIzNzIwMQ%3D%3D.2

    • Phil78

      From what I could tell, he seems to be partially of a northern Mediterranean strand similar to other populations of the black sea.

      Basically plenty of pale brunettes that would make up a decent chunk of Turkey could fit the bill for him. A rad robust though, either local Amernoid or central Asian ancestry, the later being said to be noticeable in his father.

    • Look you are either White or you are some other racial classification. You say that Gaddafi is not White. Ok, fine. What race or race mixture is then? To me he can only be White. He sure as Hell does not look very mulatto to me.

      • Phil78

        He seems to be most consistently seen as “Berberid” with “Arabid” features, plausible seeing how his family were Beduoins.

        Basically a combination of surviving cromagnid phenotype of a broad, robust face crossed with Early Mediterranean phenotypes from Asia and/or Western Europe (I believe the Former is more accurate) forming the Berberid, with some influenced of a more specialized eastern Med. type.

      • He looks like a quadroon in my opinion but he is still predominantly white.

  6. Magneto

    A large part of my world view is based on the Aryan (out of India) theory, that the modern day white race is the descendants of the Aryan Brahmins in ancient India.

    Think about it, you have the world’s most advanced religion and system of philosophy. Do you really think the street-shitting monkeys created that? No, the only race capable of creating such a complex religion/culture like that was whites. Just as whites are the only race capable of creating a modern organized society.

    Aryan Brahmins probably began migrating out of India as far as 3000 to 4000 years ago, spreading all the way to western europe and far east like Japan/Korea. Funny how the farther Aryans got away from central Asia, the whiter they tend to be, hence western europeans being fully white and far east Asians like Koreans being almost fully white.

    There was demi-god worship in ancient Europe that corresponds to the demi-god worship that was being done in India, and also many temples dedicated to the same Hindu gods have been discovered in the far East. There’s even been Vishnu temples discovered in Russia.

    According to the Vedas, the Kali yuga started 5000 years ago and before that, there was only one culture and religion, which was the worship of the demi-gods and supreme God. Call it “Vedic” or whatever, it’s all the same basic thing. And this was worldwide, or rather all over the massive flat earth mandala of which our present “earth” is only a small area. The Vedas have stories of Arjuna and other god like humans travelling to different divine and heavenly regions on this flat earth mandala, far beyond what we are presently aware of.

    And no I am not joking or trolling about flat earth. I too thought it was just a joke but I actually investigated some of the evidence and it makes a lot of sense. Google “The South Pole does not exist”

    • Magneto

      And the reason why there are almost no Aryan brahmins left in India is because the Muslims during their 1000 year invasion of India made it a point to kill as many brahmins as possible. You can bet your ass that tons of brahmins fled out of India during that period if they were lucky enough to escape with their lives. The Muslims enjoyed slaughtering fleeing brahmins in the area of what is present day Afghanistan.

    • Phil78

      “Aryan Brahmins probably began migrating out of India as far as 3000 to 4000 years ago, spreading all the way to western europe and far east like Japan/Korea. Funny how the farther Aryans got away from central Asia, the whiter they tend to be, hence western europeans being fully white and far east Asians like Koreans being almost fully white.”

      Well as I explained in Another comment section, the white phenotype of East Asians is a independent mutation, not due to shared ancestry with Whites.

      This is evident by a lack of such in East Asians aside from Turkic people that expanded there.

      Speaking of discontinuity, North Indians Without South Indian Admixture is closer to ME and Europeans than to South Indians themselves. With this being the case, how did OOI allows for such discontinuity in relation?

      “There was demi-god worship in ancient Europe that corresponds to the demi-god worship that was being done in India, and also many temples dedicated to the same Hindu gods have been discovered in the far East. There’s even been Vishnu temples discovered in Russia.”

      That would still be consistent with a “Aryan” shared heritage outside of OOI theory.

      “According to the Vedas, the Kali yuga started 5000 years ago and before that, there was only one culture and religion, which was the worship of the demi-gods and supreme God. Call it “Vedic” or whatever, it’s all the same basic thing. And this was worldwide, or rather all over the massive flat earth mandala of which our present “earth” is only a small area. The Vedas have stories of Arjuna and other god like humans travelling to different divine and heavenly regions on this flat earth mandala, far beyond what we are presently aware of.”

      Well then this would put assumptions on what ancient people “methods” in verification in their myths could compare to later observations.

      “And no I am not joking or trolling about flat earth. I too thought it was just a joke but I actually investigated some of the evidence and it makes a lot of sense. Google “The South Pole does not exist”.”

      Due to my limited knowledge of physics, I would have to respond to the contention of flights being “not allowed” there and how it would be even less plausible assuming a flat Earth.

      https://www.metabunk.org/debunked-the-flat-earth-theory-14-ways-the-flat-earth-theory-is-false.t7148/

    • Beauregard

      uhh……the “drop off” (as you would believe) is the horizon, caused by the spherical shape of the earth. The “drop off” moves as you move, meaning it could not be an absolute end like in a flat earth.

      Climatological patterns are also surely consistent with a spherical or nearly spherical shape.

      • Beauregard

        Warmer temperature in Africa, South America and South/Southeast Asia near the equator, colder to the North and South of them, etc.

      • Phil78

        I’m not even sure what the overall advantage of a “Flat Earth” is supposed to be from the perspective of religion or government control.

        The idea of a Flat earth was mainly non-abrahamic in origins, like being encompassed in Early Christian culture in Europe due to the many pagan influences it had.

        https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flat_Earth#Historical_development_for_the_flat_Earth_theory

        In comparison, a spherical earth among pagans was less widespread through local ideas….but was certainly grounded by the investigation by easily the most influential of the lot to modern science, the Greeks.

        https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spherical_Earth#Antiquity

        • Jm8

          I believe the flat earth idea was fairly common among early cultures with little (by modern standards) knowledge of astronomy, including in some Abrahamic religions.

          The Bible (or parts of it — not sure about the Koran) strongly implies says that the earth is flat and that the sky is a vault or bowl-shaped firmament into which heavenly bodies are fixed (and made for the benefit if man) — this likely being related to the literalist idea of the earth as specially created by God and at the center of the the universe/creation – and was held by certain cultures primitive in the realm of astronomy. Though not all of them believed this; an understanding of the Earth’s spherical shape existed in some, and among the Greeks goes back, as you mention/cite in the link, at least to Aristotle.

          Most flat earth claims historically — and into recent times — seem to have been religiously based and often made by clergymen (some of which are also mentioned in the Wikipedia article).

        • Phil78

          Probably was in early Abrahamic ones, but given the nature of Monotheism mainly focusing on ethics over understanding nature it either wasn’t much attention or some texts contradict each other depending on the interpretation as I’ve read of some that support a spherical earth.

          Case in point, it was more consistent in mainstream pagan thought via local beliefs compared to Early Judaism, thus the prominence in early christian era likely stems from old pagan views given the new academic centralization that took place in that era and assimilation/diffusion of some thoughts.

        • Phil78

          Jm8,

          Acknowledging your comment, it still seems odd from a motivational point of view in terms of undermining religion. Basically the belief of a round earth doesn’t exactly attack the ethics of Christianity compared to evolution.

        • Jm8

          “Basically the belief of a round earth doesn’t exactly attack the ethics of Christianity compared to evolution.”

          True. It doesn’t.

          But I was going add that many of the major purveyors of Flat Eartherism, along with those of the bizarre belief held by a perhaps separate but overlapping group that dinosaurs never existed, even today appear to be Christian fundamentalists/literalists, though not all advertise it.

          The round earth doesn’t really attack (or seem to) the ethics of Christianity in the same direct way (nor is it necessarily a threat to it or to religion in general), but it is at odds with Biblical Literalism and other forms of primitive Geo-/Anthropo- centrism.

          Also, I suspect that the increasing distrust of the government and establishment generally in raising the appeal of conspiracy theories, some of which are much more plausible than others — from the quite reasonable to the completely preposterous, may be somewhat contributing.

        • Phil78

          Figured that this would apply to literalists of christian thought.

          The idea, however, off giving certain old ideas from older anthropology would be defendable…it really only applies plausibly to understanding of cultures/history rather than natural laws.

      • Phil78

        I believe on of the greek philosophers in my links demonstrated that the earth is just near spherical, not a perfect one.

    • High civilization existed in South Asian Indus Valley long before the Arya people rode in on their chariots & horses & instituted the oldest longest lasting form if apartheid in recorded history.
      “Before the time of the Aryan migration into the Indian subcontinent, there was a highly developed civilization in ancient India known as the Indus Valley Civilization,”

      The Arya peoples were nomads
      http://www.ancient.eu/Aryan/
      when those “monkeys” were building cities the larger than New York (sqr miles wise not sky scrap…well i think you get what im saying)

      It seems you are conflating a religious texts quasi-history with academic history or you are superseding whats been proven by archeology & genetics with it.

      Do you feel the archeological records is bogus in this matter?

      https://www.britannica.com/topic/Indus-civilization

  7. Lin

    That’s odd. Recently whenever I met an African person – provided they were not of the ghetto type- – I would stress Africans are brothers to Chinese who had the dark skin bleached some 12,000 years ago during the last Ice Age.

  8. Lin

    How come there’s no Pan Black Melaninism except those pushed by some blacks who tried to compose Black ethnic pride fiction?

    • Phil78

      That’s because within Africa most of their nations, relative to the size of the overall population of the SSA, were small and thus didn’t really reach the level of semi-continental companionship you see somewhat in Europe or perhaps Asia.

      Hell, it’s currently still a struggle having basic nationalism in modern borders as they don’t correspond with precolonial cultural/political spheres of influence.

      Europe, being much smaller, was able to achieve it must faster through cultural diffusion among other factors.

  9. Frito Pendejo

    I suppose it could be politically possible to have a white nationalism based upon unity based upon the unity of the Caucasoid sub-species of the human race. But it would have to as much based upon in opposition against another racial,clad,sub-species human group or whatever, as historically, only Nordic/Germanic & Western Europeans peoples were considered white, as even Irish people were seen as a bit negroid, as some the Irish Gene pool seems to come from the Trans-Mediterranean region as well. & just as well, the Caucasoid races or just to divided by cultural, more especially by the divide of Christianity/Islam, while belonging to the broader Abrahamic religion traditions,can’t seem to fully reconcile with each other, especially with Islam as being as much as a political force as it is a religion as anything else. Adding to the fact is Caucasoids, especially ones from the Aryan/Europoid clade most of all, are by nature individualistic, as opposed to the broader Mongoloid race, especially the East Asian sub-race, have a hard time uniting with each other, certainly not for that long @ any rate.

  10. Santoculto

    You can”extract” whiteness or whitening even from a aboriginal people. Disturbfront typos ignore that they can select the best of, for example, Mena people, even reproducing desired northwest European phenotypes but they are so rigid to their little world that they can’t see a horizon of possibilities forward. Instead try to reorganize, dialogue and foment bridges of understanding with other groups they just adhere spontaneously to the divisionism agenda (((elite$))) is promoting. Exactly what (((they))) expect for them.

    • Phil78

      That’s not a bad idea, focusing on the best of a lot (at least the most compatible) and making them grow in numbers to decrease tribalism.

  11. Complete tom foolery. Either a ploy to muddle up any unity accross non-White, non-Europid peoples or a plea to shore up the numbers of a group increasingly besieged(and for good reason) Im sure the so called “pure” Germanic type would set at top of the ruling body of this “Pan-Aryan” movement. I dont think the majority of uncolonized minds in North Africa,Arabia & the Middle East will be attracted to that.

    • Phil78

      *and for good reason…

      What good reason is there to be besieged? Also you seem to be rather familiar with this site and Robert’s content so I see no reason why you would assume that Robert’s intentions is to construct a hierachy within the “pan-aryan” circle.

      Being not the first time he brought it up, He thinks it isn’t an rarity to see non-europeans who resemble conventional “Whites”.

  12. The besieged group or groups im referring to are the creators of the idea of Pan-Aryanism ue: White nationalist,White racist,quasi-racist,etc & who buys into any philosophy using “Aryan” in its modern sence. The word drips with racism. Now if one is speaking on recognizing groups of people throughout the world sharing the “White” phenotype then Pan Eurasian would be a less polorizing term. The thing is Pan-Aryanist aren’t in de-polorizing anything

    Robert did not invent the idea of “Pan Aryanism” so im not assuming he desires to create any hierarchy.
    What im infering is the tendency for people who push these types of philosophy to place lighter skinned Europoids into positions of power. This was the way Nazi Aryanist envisioned the ancient world. They believed in every civilization be it in Africa, Asia or the Americas the Germanic Aryan sat at the helm or where the founders. People think like this still. The “only Whites have & can create something great” world view is prevalent amongst Europeans. This being the case any Pan Aryan circle would have to deal with this issue. The fact there is no consensus as to who even gets to sit in this circle is proof of a hierachy in the existence in the minds of those contemplating Pan-Arayanism.
    Once you get to sit at the table the question where you get to sit comes into play.
    If your skin tone & or how “mulattocized” your are was the rod used to judge your entry then when power is assigned,grabbed for & taken the same measuring stick will be used. Anything based on race is inherently racist. Be this to a lesser or greater or even to say a right(er) or wrong (er) degree(please no grammar nazi’s😂)

    • Phil78

      “The besieged group or groups im referring to are the creators of the idea of Pan-Aryanism ue: White nationalist,White racist,quasi-racist,etc & who buys into any philosophy using “Aryan” in its modern sence. The word drips with racism. Now if one is speaking on recognizing groups of people throughout the world sharing the “White” phenotype then Pan Eurasian would be a less polorizing term. The thing is Pan-Aryanist aren’t in de-polorizing anything”

      Ah, I understand now. Technically Aryans can work in a scientific sense as the heritage of the Bronze age people themselves, such not as a blonde Haired ancient ubermenschen.

      “Robert did not invent the idea of “Pan Aryanism” so im not assuming he desires to create any hierarchy.
      What im infering is the tendency for people who push these types of philosophy to place lighter skinned Europoids into positions of power. This was the way Nazi Aryanist envisioned the ancient world. They believed in every civilization be it in Africa, Asia or the Americas the Germanic Aryan sat at the helm or where the founders.”

      I know what you are talking about, and trust me I’ve gotten quite annoyed by it myself.

      https://vnnforum.com/showthread.php?t=296048

      I’ve down my own analysis how each point he makes is either dishonest or shallow assumptions, but the basic facts are that the R1b is closer to that of Levantine people rather than Western Euros and that the Fulani only came over during the Middle Ages via the Hausa Kanem Bornu Empire.

      Further, notice how he lacks the typical arbitrary art that supposed to prove an aryan presence, and for good reason.

      http://www.ancient-origins.net/ancient-places-africa/lost-mists-time-ancient-sao-civilization-central-africa-003978

      “People think like this still. The “only Whites have & can create something great” world view is prevalent amongst Europeans. This being the case any Pan Aryan circle would have to deal with this issue. The fact there is no consensus as to who even gets to sit in this circle is proof of a hierachy in the existence in the minds of those contemplating Pan-Arayanism.”

      I sympathize completely.

      “Once you get to sit at the table the question where you get to sit comes into play.
      If your skin tone & or how “mulattocized” your are was the rod used to judge your entry then when power is assigned,grabbed for & taken the same measuring stick will be used. Anything based on race is inherently racist. Be this to a lesser or greater or even to say a right(er) or wrong (er) degree(please no grammar nazi’s😂)”

      By the definition of the word “racist” then I agree, but in practical use it’s used to define an ethical bias or arbitrarity.

      In other words I believe races and “sub races” exist in the sense of phenotype adaptation, and I do believe that comes with differences through either a biological or a circumstantial route with evidence but to organize society by a hierarchy with those means and form them as destiny for a group I’m against.

      • Yes i agree in regards to race existing in regards to phenotypical adaptations but im gravitating towards using the term “ethnic group” in place of race.
        Im reading your link discussing ydna haplo group R1b. Its funny how when you find a sub clad of R in Africa its from White people but when you find a sub clad of E in Europe….its from White people. I do recognize looking at the spread of technology by following genetic trails is a smart idea but I chuckle at how often the people doing this fail to follow all the way through with that smart idea. For example yes R1b is found in Africa & yes it originated in Eurasia. Does this mean Eurasians migrated & or invaded these parts of Africa? Yes, but now you have to look at the time line & you’ll see R1b is a sub clad of R that broke off about 7k to 10k yrs ago. Not that long in genetic terms but older than the 1st evidence of iron smelting in Africa. If newcomers carrying R ydna spread the technology of smelting iron into Africa they waited a few thousand years before sharing it. You have ancient iron smelting sites all over Africa like in Tanzania http://www.academia.edu/29684517/Complex_Iron_Smelting_and_Prehistoric_Culture_in_Tanzania
        Tanzania is in central East Africa. Not alot of R ydna down there. …but anyway
        I’ll end in saying I for obvious reasons do not believe in creating or supporting a hierachy based on race. This is how empires fall. You award the right to rule based merely on genetic heritage. The human race as a whole looses when it doesn’t tap into all of its peoples potential. Women in large were kept from becoming educated & persuing careers. For millennia mankind had not been taping into at least 50% of its ingenuity,creativity & drive. Now less than a century of acknowledging a women capability & mankind has benifited from countless innovations & ideas sprung forth from our better halfs
        https://www.buzzfeed.com/hannahjewell/inventions-by-women-that-changed-the-world?utm_term=.xugVjebQY#.tlA9dE2qm

        This the way I look at race & mankind. If you provide the opportunity for all we all benifit. I understand groups fear being dominated by another and fear retribution for past domineering & this will always be a sticking point when giving up & sharing power is concerned. The thing is we are on the road towards becoming better & more enlightened beings & cooperating with one another is essential to the spiritual growth of mankind

        • Phil78

          “Yes i agree in regards to race existing in regards to phenotypical adaptations but im gravitating towards using the term “ethnic group” in place of race.”

          That might be sticky seeing how that’s usually used for culture. Science currently uses the term “populations” along with region attachments.

          ” I’m reading your link discussing ydna haplo group R1b. Its funny how when you find a sub clad of R in Africa its from White people but when you find a sub clad of E in Europe….its from White people.”

          Technically E comes from ancients East Africans rather than Modern SSA populations, but I see your point.

          Regardless, when indicating admixture it’s better to use autosomal DNA.

          http://www.eupedia.com/europe/Haplogroup_E1b1b_Y-DNA.shtml#M81

          I distinguish the two as such allusions force arguments that blacks are an “older race” and are thus “less evolved”.

          https://pumpkinperson.com/2017/04/05/even-more-evidence-that-the-black-race-is-extremely-old/

          Basically E in Modern Eurasians, though rare, is indicative of a common ancestry in East Africa with modern SSA populations rather than a result of admixture.

          ” I do recognize looking at the spread of technology by following genetic trails is a smart idea but I chuckle at how often the people doing this fail to follow all the way through with that smart idea. For example yes R1b is found in Africa & yes it originated in Eurasia. Does this mean Eurasians migrated & or invaded these parts of Africa? Yes, but now you have to look at the time line & you’ll see R1b is a sub clad of R that broke off about 7k to 10k yrs ago. Not that long in genetic terms but older than the 1st evidence of iron smelting in Africa. If newcomers carrying R ydna spread the technology of smelting iron into Africa they waited a few thousand years before sharing it. You have ancient iron smelting sites all over Africa like in Tanzania http://www.academia.edu/29684517/Complex_Iron_Smelting_and_Prehistoric_Culture_in_Tanzania
          Tanzania is in central East Africa. Not alot of R ydna down there.”

          Precisely, the argument was lazy to begin with by oversimplication and lack of comprehensive knowledge of history and genetics.

          ” …but anyway
          I’ll end in saying I for obvious reasons do not believe in creating or supporting a hierachy based on race. This is how empires fall. You award the right to rule based merely on genetic heritage. The human race as a whole looses when it doesn’t tap into all of its peoples potential. Women in large were kept from becoming educated & persuing careers. For millennia mankind had not been taping into at least 50% of its ingenuity,creativity & drive. Now less than a century of acknowledging a women capability & mankind has benifited from countless innovations & ideas sprung forth from our better halfs
          https://www.buzzfeed.com/hannahjewell/inventions-by-women-that-changed-the-world?utm_term=.xugVjebQY#.tlA9dE2qm

          I simply viewed it on ethical levels, I haven’t really seen the practical benefits. Thanks for sharing.

          “This the way I look at race & mankind. If you provide the opportunity for all we all benifit. I understand groups fear being dominated by another and fear retribution for past domineering & this will always be a sticking point when giving up & sharing power is concerned. The thing is we are on the road towards becoming better & more enlightened beings & cooperating with one another is essential to the spiritual growth of mankind.”

          Many try, but with WNs and modern exploitation it’s a long road.

        • Jm8

          To HughCipher:

          “If newcomers carrying R ydna spread the technology of smelting iron into Africa they waited a few thousand years before sharing it. ”

          There is no evidence that R-carriers spread iron into Africa or were the initial creators of it. The oldest iron metallurgy and smelting dates are from places with few to no R carriers, in which the local peoples speak Niger-Congo languages (or occaisonally Nilo-Saharan), rather than Chadic languages (Chadic in Africa having been associated with R/R1b) . The most recent evidence suggests an indigenous invention somewhere in West Africa.

          The oldest dates is from South East Nigeria at a Nsukka in Igboland finds ca. 2000 BC.

          http://www.academia.edu/4103707/Iron_and_its_influence_on_the_prehistoric_site_of_Lejja

          The researchers studying the the Central Nigerian Nok culture (in recent years), Peter Breunig and his German research team or archaeologists (Nicole Rupp etc.), believe its iron metallurgy to be part of an independant local tradition and its oldest confirmed iron dates are about 600-700 bc. The culture itself goes back to about 1500-1200 bc and older iron dates (by a few centuries in that part of Nigeria) are suspected by Breunig based on indirect evidence, but have not yet been confirmed.

          https://books.google.com/books?id=BBn1BQAAQBAJ&printsec=frontcover&dq=Nok+culture+context&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjr84mK4vbNAhVFpB4KHe2qB1cQ6AEIHDAA#v=onepage&q=Nok%20culture%20context&f=false

          Dates from some Central African sites (the Gabon arrea and possibly arround Uganda, which both have little R1b dna and are mostly Bantu speaking) begin by about 800 bc (the Gabon and the Uganda regions I think), but those last dates may be still somewhat inconclusive.

          “you’ll see R1b is a sub clad of R that broke off about 7k to 10k yrs ago”

          R1b broke off from R in Europe (or somewhere in Eurasia) long before that (and is common in parts of Western Eurasia especially Western Europe).
          The specific subclade of R1b found in Africa broke off arround 10-7k ago. But that R1b clade only (having arrived first in East Africa) only becan to move west around 5k ago, and is believed to have entered West Africa (the lake Chad region) I believe about 4 or 5 to 3k ago, long after Nilo Saharans and Niger Congo-peoples . The likely Chadic speaking R1b carriers would have been indeed mostlyAfrican genetically by then (maybe overwhelmingly so, as Chadic speaking tribes are today).

        • Yes thank you. I meant the African sub clad of R1b. Before looking into this whole R dna thing I’d long assumed the R ydna present in the region of Chad worked its way down from the Visigothic invasions of North Africa . Now im seeing the timelines are far to old to coincide with this. Im interested in what group of peoples carried R into Africa. I mean can this R dna be connected with any known group of migrants or invaders? Also looking at the time lines it probable these R carries brought domesticable crops & animals into Africa or at least were one group that aided in this transfer of resources.

        • Jm8

          Continued:

          Iron smelting (of course independantly from the aforementioned invention in S.E. Nigeria) was also invented in Turkey around 1,000 bc./3k ago.

        • Jm8

          To HuCipher/Phil

          So yeah, the argument making the African Aryan colony claim is a pretty inept one for manhy reasons (R1a is more associated with Aryans/Indo-Europeans anyway).

        • Jm8

          …that is, that R1a (rather than R1b) is the one more associated with the proto Aryans (from their likely original Indo-European homeland in the Ukraine area) and still most common in Eastern Europe.

        • Jm8

          HughCipher

          “Also looking at the time lines it probable these R carries brought domesticable crops & animals into Africa or at least were one group that aided in this transfer of resources.”

          Most crops and animals are not associated with R1b carriers either. There were several likely independant domestications in Africa. One in the West African savannah region of native African rice/oryza glaberrima, sorghum, and millet (and other secondary crops like black eyed peas/cowpeas, sesame, and I believe the locust bean), arround Mali and Senegal and some perhaps toward the central Sahel (and the south east part of Mauritania near Mali).

          These are attributed to Niger-Congo speaking peoples as well; most likely those speaking languages if the Mande branch of Niger-Congo (ancestral to Mandinka, Soninke, Bambara, etc) some also with people speaking early languages of the West Atlantic branch (ancestral to Serer, Wolof, Fulani, Tuculor) and possibly in some places involving more westernly Nilo Saharans (ancestral to tribes like the Kanuri or Songhai) of the Central Sahel in parts of Mali, Chad and Niger.

          The ancestors of these peoples in the neolithic lived in a range including the sahel, parts of the savannah (as they do today), and parts of the southern sahara, at bit further north than they do today.

          The forrest crops (the indigenous African yam and oil palm) are likely part of a sepparate domestication (maybe somewhere arround Nigeria or Cameroon), by peoples of a very different branch of the Niger-Congo family than those then in the savannah.

          Cattle are believed (I think though tehre may be some dispute about this) to have been domesticated bith in Eurasia and East Africa. In the latter case NiloSaharan peoples (in the early neolithic, ca 9,000 bc or so) in South Egypt/North Sudan (before any Eurasian peoples had migrated there) are suspected at sites like Nabta Playa (if those cattle were in fact domestic), but Cushitic and Chadic peoples have been suggested as well.

          Early Nilo Saharans in the Mesolithic Central Sudan (at the very farthest south of modern Nubia near Khartoum or just south of Nubia) and/or early (possibly proto Mande) people in Central Mali (ca. 10,000 bc) are also associated with one of the earliest independant inventions of pottery (two others being in East Asia and the Middle East), before domestic animals or crops.

          http://anthromadness.blogspot.com/2016/05/modelling-diffusion-of-pottery.html

          Goats and sheep, however, were introduced to Africa (ultimately) from Eurasia (originally being from the middle east) in the later neolithic, and likely by peoples such as Cushitic tribes (in east Africa), and possibly Berbers or Chadics in different parts of the West), but these animals were, in most-many places in subsaharan Africa, added to pre-existing native domesticates (sometimes coming shortly after).

        • Jm8

          Edit: “…and possibly Berbers or Chadics in different parts of the West), but these animals were, in most-many places in subsaharan (and near-saharan Africa) where they came, added to pre-existing native domesticates (though, in some places, perhaps coming not too long after the native ones had been domesticated/established).”

  13. You would probably have to include south indians for not being white but they are caucasoid just like HOA.

  14. Jason Y

    White is mostly a matter of culture where I’m at. A bunch of guys who aren’t exactly swedes would be seen as white as long as they listened to country music.

  15. Ok it seems R is ruled out in both cases of smelting & crop introduction.
    As for indigenous crops & animals I think the African fowl & African cattle are the only domesticable animals native to Africa & of the two only the fowl is native in Sub Saharan Africa. I admit when I say domesticable crops Im thinking of the introduction of higher yeilding crops such as wheat into Africa(& not nesseccarily the skill of farming it self) Today I dont think many SSA countries grow these higher yeilding crops. In ancient times growing these crops in Africa out side the nile valley may have been difficult so as you point out the more robust but lower yeilding crops such as millet & yams are found to be staples in SSA.
    For some reason you have more animal & plant species that lend themselves to domestication in Eurasia. The zebra would have been tamed & ridden long ago if not for its inherent wild streak. In regards of animals I believe I have a clue. Id say its due to the higher number of predators in Africa that the need to maintain a powerful fight or flight response is more crucial. As for plants perhaps the Eurasian clime aided in wild grasses evolving into the strain humans would later cultivate into the wheat we eat today.

    I say this because we know there was Eurasian back migration into Africa & I’d assume they brought crops like wheat into East Africa along with themselves.
    Either this or some interprsing guy skipped accross the Sinai & came back yelling out “hey look what I found over there”

    • Jm8

      HughCipher

      Yes I think you are right. I had written a comment mentioning that wheat never spread to most of Africa but I now see that you already did (mention that).

  16. SHI

    By appearance alone, some of the ethnic groups of Northern and Western India could be Whiter than your average Turk and North African. Surprisingly, this holds true more in the case of females than males.

    These ethnic groups include:

    Sindhis – For some reason, a vast majority of Sindhi females are of White appearance, except the blue/green eyes part.
    Kashmiris – Kashmiris (both males and females) are similar in appearance to the Iranians. It’s common to run into blue/green eyes and most peoples are of White appearance.
    Punjabis – Some Punjabi males (as well as females) are of pukka White appearance. Hrithik Roshan is a 100% full-blooded Punjabi male. But, he could as easily pass for a White-looking Arab.

    All the remaining “White-looking Indians” can’t really pass for White. Yes, some have blue/green eyes like Aishwarya Rai but the other Indian features are so prominent that you cannot argue against it.

  17. SHI

    Zaid Hamid, an India-bashing Pakistani poster looks stunningly White. That’s what a lot of Sindhis actually look like. However, something about him still doesn’t really feel White. I can’t really tell what it is.

    Even if he wore a disguise, I could tell him apart in a roomful of Spaniards and Meds. Maybe not in a roomful of Arabs/Persians. .

    His Twitter comments are full of bile and hatred towards Israel, India and America. A lot of Indian posters troll him on a daily basis. It’s fun to read up those comments.

    • Phil78

      What might be off putting is how the eyes are shaped.

      • Jm8

        I think it might be something about the shape of the nose that seems a little (suggestively) Indian subcontinental, Indid or almost quasi-Veddoid; the bridge is high but the tip somewhat angles down flattening a bit and widening only toward the bottom, and also something subtle about the nostrils too.

        One can see something similiar even in the lighest (unusually light) skinned Roma Gypsies, Romanies being of Indian origin, (they usually are sigificantly darker on average of course than neighboring European groups) who sometimes also still have features that are somewhat Indian-like and make them seem vaguely exotic (among Europeans) despite their coloring.

        • Phil78

          You know what, you are right. It’s the odd combo of a flat tip, high ridge, and prominent nostrils that give off a non-european “aesthetic”.

          Granted, the traits on their own wouldn’t be so out of place when you consider extremes like Alpine people or Dinarics, though I’m not sure about a flat tip for Alpines.

        • Jm8

          Some European types (like some Alpines) can have flat (or relatively wide) nose (and Dinarics and Eastern Mediterraneans usually have narrow high bridged aquiline of bent noses, sometimes—no allways—with one or another type of minor nostril flair, and often a narrower or more pointed/projecting nose tip than his), but it’s the particular combination of elements (as it usually is in making an ethnic/racial look) that gives the subtly Indid effect.

          Human nasal genetics are extremely complex and polygenic (many genes contribute to nostril shape alone) and they can combine in almost infinite ways. Ethnic groups seem to each have several nasal looks especially (and facial in general) that seem most characteristic of them, that do not allways resemble each other, and nasal morphology, being so subtle and extremely varried, can be one of the major ethnic/racial (or even familial) markers (though usually combined with other things) that can help give one’s ancestry away so to speak (there are of course many more racially ambiguous nose types out there too that more or less appear all over the world).

        • SHI

          Hooray…I’ve got the perfect straight Aryan nose. It is very similar in appearance to Donald Trump’s two sons: Uday and Qusay.

          Must be all that R1a1 working out nicely.

        • Phil78

          Speaking of which, are you familiar with such categories applying to Africans, particularly of the Guinea/Savannah area?

          On my own analysis, due to some rather odd proposition made by John Baker in his book “Race”, I looked at the ife heads and they appear to be of a “Sudanid” tupe for the MOST part but what odd is the prevalence of moderately raised nasal bridges with prominent tips and some even being hooked.

          Looking at them many times they seem to possibly be of fulani descent, but keep in mind this mainly goes for a few of the busts. Bronze pieces that have the figure dressed in obvious local regalia had more typical noses of the Mesorrhine type.

          I’ve read from a Linguist named Bowen that there was a tribe of Fulani unconnected to the larger empire that may’ve mixed with some of the natives but not as conquers as the latter would.

          It was also noted by a early observer that many of the “hamitic” looking ones were to be specifically of the latter Fulani Dynasty due to lacking the “ichi” marks (which Baker rejected, though for honestly poor reason due to lack of understanding of Ife Aesthetics for realism compared to Roman art for example that Coon studied) though a later book on the topic called “Art and Risk” noted specimens that didn’t apply.

          My thoughts are that a non-conquering tribe of Fulani known to the Yoruba, as Bowen stated, may’ve been partially mixed with them giving some such traits but many depicted were still “foreigners” and lack the marks.

        • Jm8

          Edit: “…but it’s the particular combination of morphological elements not often found in quite the same way in other subtypes…” “…that gives…”

          “…(many genes contribute to nostril shape alone, and there ar emany kinds of nostril flair, or of wide nose, etc. )…”

          After a while one can get a sense of what kinds of noses (and overall facial looks/combinations of features ) seem charactoristically Jewish/Levantine, Japanese, Polynesian, Italian, South Chinese and various South East Asian, Balkan, South East Ghanaian (I feel that there’s at least one characteristic Ewe nose and look), or whatever it might be, etc.

          I think I’ve gotten kind of good at “those classify this person” challenge threads they do on forumbiodiversity and similiar sites.

        • Phil78

          *update
          by “more typical”, I meant in regards to traits like tip protrusion and flatness, not necessarily the index itself.

          Some examples.

          This one however near matches with a Berom individual, making me think many could exolsined as a type of subtype originally in Northern Nigeria, Share among different tribes, prior to Hausa invasion/ Assimilation.

          http://assets3.bigthink.com/system/idea_thumbnails/20315/size_1024/06-Head_called_Lajuwa_compressed.jpg?1275110214

          Also, my assessment was based on facial length, Cheekbones, and jaw width for a “Sudanid predominance” as several can be seen in each photo John baker uses compare to the one or two “eurpoid” forms he proses approaching “Armenoid”.

        • Jm8

          To Phil: There are many Ife heads and most (many of which are not as often shown or reproduced in pictures) do not really have this tendency. Its not really a prominant tendency overall. The higher bridges from what I’ve seem are not very strong (a mild tendency in most of thos that have it, and are more or less within the phenotypical range of the natives of the north of Yoruba land and the Benue valley region/Central Nigeria (the Igala, etc) and I would guess of the sudanid subtype that includes them, and people of tha region.

          It seems that the classification of Subsaharan subtypes was unfortunately not typically done in as much detail as of those Eurasian ones (especially European) by the early physical anthropologists (sometimes Black/negroid and other subsaharan subtypes are discussed, with varying degrees of accuracy,—though sometimes they seem to do fairly well—,on anthropology forums like forumbiodiversity).

          I suspect (believe) there are also many subtle variations and subgroups within the main variants of subsaharan peoples (such as Sudanids, “Palenegrids”/”forrest negroes”, Nilotes, Pygmies, etc. and others, some related to the afore-mentioned but not often in the past treated in detail).

          I have not heard of any linguistic evidence of Fulani influence in Yoruba land (before 19th century), but some interactions on the margins of hear or there with some Fulani subgroup here or there is not impossible, but I doubt it was important or very significant.

          I had not heard of Bowen’s theory (It is current? Because that is somewhat important with linguistics especially which can be updated very frequently, and the Bowen I’m finding seems to be from the mid-late 1800s—also earlier researchers could be strongly biased—at the expense of accuracy—by the hamitic hypothesis to, though this varied quite a bit in severity/degree and thier works can of course still be ways quite useful and interesting.), but I will look into it.

        • Jm8

          To Phil:

          Yes the sculpture you showed do approach the Berom person in some ways (some Yoruba also have a similar nose, Yoruba noses vary), which can vary by region as Youbaland is fairly big and includes a variety of subgroups as well as subcultures—of the Yoruba culture. High cheekbones (common in Ife art) are common in many sudanid types, and relatively flat faces (along with more prognatous faces) are also not uncommon in certain sudanid subgroups and can be seen in some people for instance among the Yoruba, much of Ghana, Mali and Senegal.

          Some idea of the range of Ife head types can perhaps be had from these google image results:

          https://www.google.com/search?q=ife+art&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwiH9ISghuTTAhUqqFQKHVDuC0kQ_AUIBigB&biw=1047&bih=821

        • Jm8

          To Phil

          I meant (in my last response) that some Yoruba have a nose similiar to that of the second image you posted, but many have a nose like that of the third one as well (the link, whose face is like that of the, western Sudan/southern sahel/savannah looking, Berom man you showed).

          Somewhat square/broader faces seem to be more common im much of the savannah/sahel (though this varries and some groups there have a fairly common more tapering faced type among them).

          More tapering faces (with narrower of more pointed lower faces), sometimes with less prominant cheekbones seem to appear a bit more in some forrest West African subgroups south of the savannah, though there are broad faced forrest types—its all very subtle, nuanced and complicated. I suspect, though it is hard to say, that the first and second of your images (and at least some people with faces like them) could possibly show some influence from such a type since Yorubaland is between the forrest and savannah

        • Jm8

          To Phil:
          “I looked at the ife heads and they appear to be of a “Sudanid” tupe for the MOST part…”

          (to ammend my first response to your regarding Ife and African types:)
          Sorry I must not have noticed (in my last resopnses) the above where you had already mentioned that most of them do not have the tendency. Though I, as mentioned, believe that it, for the most part in that region at anyway , is still likely part of sudanid/West African variation (with similar noses existing in some north and central Yorubas, and Igalas, Idomas etc.).

        • Jm8

          “making me think many could exolsined as a type of subtype originally in Northern Nigeria, Share among different tribes, prior to Hausa invasion/ Assimilation.”

          I think that is pretty much correct.

        • Jm8

          Edit:

          “I meant (in my last response) that some Yoruba have a nose similiar to that of the second image you posted, but many have a nose like that of the third one as well (the link, whose face is like that of the, western Sudan/southern sahel/savannah looking, Berom man you showed) and like the first one (as well as like some of the more high-bridge nosed ones).”

        • Phil78

          “The higher bridges from what I’ve seem are not very strong (a mild tendency in most of thos that have it, and are more or less within the phenotypical range of the natives of the north of Yoruba land and the Benue valley region/Central Nigeria (the Igala, etc) and I would guess of the sudanid subtype that includes them, and people of tha region.”

          Yes, the region you described is precisely where I estimated it to be. It is consistent with Yoruba myths saying they branched from Nyffe in the east (modern Nupe people) and how that group and the Igala were said to possess “fulani-like features”.

          My previous article “High and Dry” goes further in this process.

          It seems that the classification of Subsaharan subtypes was unfortunately not typically done in as much detail as of those Eurasian ones (especially European) by the early physical anthropologists (sometimes Black/negroid and other subsaharan subtypes are discussed, with varying degrees of accuracy,—though sometimes they seem to do fairly well—,on anthropology forums like forumbiodiversity).

          I actually found a one where these traits were noticed, called “sub-typical negro”. It was described as retreating from “typical traits” and associated with higher elevation including similar groups we’ve already discussed (Nyffe, Yoruba, and Fulani).

          https://books.google.com/books?id=mhZBQ7vgZ-YC&pg=PA482&lpg=PA482&dq=subtypical+negroes&source=bl&ots=L_dtD9MBRI&sig=4XCfHPDHmw8RNAdcxu1cMxn2lZI&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjAvpKPk6jRAhXIx4MKHU5bCVgQ6AEIGjAA#v=onepage&q=subtypical%20negroes&f=false

          As for Bowen, his theory is based on actual observations of such a tribe and interaction with local Nigerian cultures. It seems to be sound as the word he records the locals (the Ilorin Yoruba) using when addressing such people is “alabawo”, a known word for Fulani in yoruba from what I could find.

          Also consistent with “subtypical negroes” is his description of what he calls “pure negroes” as well formed.

          Regarding face tapering, I’ve seen the two specimens I’ve used for “typical types” both seem fair broad though the second one is tad narrow but easily in sudanid variation as it also has slight maxillary projection when viewed from the sides or in good lighting.

          Your region correlations for broad faces seem odd. From what I’ve read, in terms of average width, I would suspect it increase southwards.

          However, if you mean variation or you perhap mean a less angular cut then you mean accurate as Palaenegrids are described as less specialized than Sudanids and also that the guinea portion of the group was more mixed in features with sudanids compared to the Congo.

        • Jm8

          To Phil:

          “…many could exolsined as a type of subtype originally in Northern Nigeria, Share among different tribes, prior to Hausa invasion/ Assimilation.”

          Also, the type (of the Berom man, and similar types/variations of it) is also common in the sahel/savannah in general (and somewhat in the savannah/forrest transition zone like where many Yoruba live).

        • Jm8

          It seems to be sound as the word he records the locals (the Ilorin Yoruba) using when addressing such people is “alabawo”, a known word for Fulani in yoruba from what I could find.

          It could be that, as a factor at least, the word

          “Regarding face tapering, I’ve seen the two specimens I’ve used for “typical types” both seem fair broad though the second one is tad narrow but easily in sudanid variation as it also has slight maxillary projection when viewed from the sides or in good lighting.”

          True. It could easily be within sudanid variation. My guess was very tentative.

          “Your region correlations for broad faces seem odd. From what I’ve read, in terms of average width, I would suspect it increase southwards.”

          Perhaps. I was thinking, regarding at least some forest types, of lower rather than mid face narrowing (you don’t see so many people with both mid and lower faces in the forrest region, like you sometimes do in the Sahel and parts of the savannah—or the eastern Mediterranean or the horn of Africa, to give an unrelated example)

          However, if you mean variation or you perhap mean a less angular cut then you mean accurate as Palaenegrids are described as less specialized than Sudanids and also that the guinea portion of the group was more mixed in features with sudanids compared to the Congo.”

          Yes, the paleonegrid type tends less angular (and when broad is rounder) and the broader sudanid types often more squarish (and sometimes with higher cheekbones, a bit reminiscient of some nilotic types, and even vaguely like some mongoloid types; square face, high cheekbones some with a flatish nose.

          But there are of course some narrower-faced types in the sahel/savanah also (I’ve seen them for example among some of the Mande peoples, Bambara, Mandinka, Soninke, as well as the Fulani and Tuculor). I always though Arsenio Hall looked bit like a narrower faced sahelian/savannah type (and of course he could be one, or at least strongly influenced by that kind of ancestry).

        • Jm8

          Cont:

          “It seems to be sound as the word he records the locals (the Ilorin Yoruba) using when addressing such people is “alabawo”, a known word for Fulani in yoruba from what I could find.”

          Perhaps, though one interpretation might be (not knowing much about the source) that this term’s usage could have been influenced by the presence of Fulanis in parts of Yorubaland at or arround the time (they had begun to raid, especially North, Yorubaland in the early 19th century or so, but as far as we know, had not had much of a history there before) and that the word for them became associated with a type with tendencies they seemed to have a lot of—when those features and Fulani ancestry were not necessarily connected, though perhaps in some cases they might be.

          Or it could be the reverse; where a word previously describing certain tendences in some individuals became associated with a group (that had recently come into or become more familiar in the area) that had them to a greater extent.

        • Jm8

          Correction:
          * “…early 19th century or so, but as far as we know, for certain anyway, had not had much of a history there before”

        • Jm8

          To Phil:

          Edit/Correction:

          “…(you don’t see so many people with both mid AND lower faces that are narrower in the forrest region, like you sometimes do in the Sahel and parts of the savannah—or often in the eastern Mediterranean or horn of Africa, to give an unrelated example)”

        • Jm8

          “It was described as retreating from “typical traits” and associated with higher elevation including similar groups we’ve already discussed (Nyffe, Yoruba, and Fulani).”

          I agree. It could certainly be associated with a drier and/or more elevated land adapted subtype (or subtypes), as you previously discussed.

        • Phil78

          To Jm8,

          I misspoke with my use of “such people” as in merely referring to the people who were narrow looking, I meant that was the word for the Nomad Tribe itself.

          “Yes, the paleonegrid type tends less angular (and when broad is rounder) and the broader sudanid types often more squarish (and sometimes with higher cheekbones, a bit reminiscient of some nilotic types, and even vaguely like some mongoloid types; square face, high cheekbones some with a flatish nose.”

          Funny you mention this, as the Euro/Anthro forum site “TheApricity” did a classification thread for the Ife heads, many having difficulty and said how one looked like a dinka (likely a Sudanid variant as you allude to yourself) and how another looked like a “Sinid” (narrow featured NE asian type).

          The thing about the later observation is notebale like obvious in ones like these.

          https://www.kimbellart.org/sites/default/files/styles/large_800/public/tms/AP1994_04_MAIN.jpg?itok=_IKrPmOW

          Each of these are likely Palaenegrid types due to the smaller, more button nose Guinea types often have as well as the cheekbone formation.

          The things is both this type and sudanids have prominent cheekbones, but it seems to be less prevalent in the Congo/guinea as well as their cheekbones project forward while sudanids project outwards (noted for have a “rhombic” shape).

          Very good real lief example to compare these statues would be the dahomey amazons, particularly the third one due to the cheekbones.

          This brings up another trend I noticed with the artwork, with the realistic busts they usually have better continuity with females of the region rather than the males which may be due to the lack of photo documentation of clear Sudanid leaning types in the Guinea which the males tend to align to more (possibly a reflection of regional migration?).

          To prove that point, that this photo of one of my above pictures from a three quarter angle.

          And compare it to the woman on the far right in terms of face contours.

          https://www.google.com/search?q=ife+heads&safe=strict&rlz=1CAACAJ_enUS665US665&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjR2Jeq4uXTAhVllFQKHd_ZBBAQ_AUICigB&biw=1366&bih=630#safe=strict&tbm=isch&q=yoruba+women+ere+ibeji&imgrc=9MssC_OTylrgCM:

          And another comparison.

          https://www.google.com/search?q=ife+heads&safe=strict&rlz=1CAACAJ_enUS665US665&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjR2Jeq4uXTAhVllFQKHd_ZBBAQ_AUICigB&biw=1366&bih=630#safe=strict&tbm=isch&q=ife+heads+ita+yemoo&imgrc=UQhXqwKKuH69VM:

          This one being somewhat close for a sudanid woman, one stylistic and another realistic but less resembling.

          https://www.google.com/search?q=ife+heads&safe=strict&rlz=1CAACAJ_enUS665US665&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjR2Jeq4uXTAhVllFQKHd_ZBBAQ_AUICigB&biw=1366&bih=630#safe=strict&tbm=isch&q=yoruba+woman&imgrc=D4piNdFhaKTVeM:

          https://www.google.com/search?q=ife+heads&safe=strict&rlz=1CAACAJ_enUS665US665&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjR2Jeq4uXTAhVllFQKHd_ZBBAQ_AUICigB&biw=1366&bih=630#q=ife+terracotta+queen&safe=strict&tbm=isch&tbs=rimg:CWnmd8E34tX9IjgZKQstHAe6cbzP7spPHDgF1Jf0eVlvigLX0b1EIvdZInRinfx8jOp0ahR1q31qmYuv7_1_19XciWuioSCRkpCy0cB7pxEXhWG1Fucor-KhIJvM_1uyk8cOAURuV8dL4bYPYUqEgnUl_1R5WW-KAhFTKHSrPiJUwyoSCdfRvUQi91kiEffV9MTdzBkLKhIJdGKd_1HyM6nQRplLKRQLR-voqEglqFHWrfWqZixH8enSTSYl7RyoSCa_1v_1_11dyJa6ETLte8a72AvE&imgrc=aeZ3wTfi1f39OM:

          https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/d/dd/Bust_of_a_king_or_dignitary%2C_Nigeria%2C_Ife%2C_12th-15th_century_AD%2C_terracotta_-Ethnological_Museum%2C_BerlinDSC02183.JPG/200px-Bust_of_a_king_or_dignitary%2C_Nigeria%2C_Ife%2C_12th-15th_century_AD%2C_terracottaEthnological_Museum%2C_Berlin-_DSC02183.JPG

        • Jm8

          “The thing about the later observation is notebale like obvious in ones like these.

          https://www.kimbellart.org/sites/default/files/styles/large_800/public/tms/AP1994_04_MAIN.jpg?itok=_IKrPmOW

          The slanted eyes could be to some extent an artistic stylization, but vaguely slanted seeming eyes can occaisonally be found in some nilotids (and related types) and a few sudanids.

          “Very good real lief example to compare these statues would be the dahomey amazons, particularly the third one due to the cheekbones.”

          I also find many of them to be pretty good examples.

          And I also also say I pretty much agree with your image compairisons.

        • Phil78

          “The slanted eyes could be to some extent an artistic stylization, but vaguely slanted seeming eyes can occaisonally be found in some nilotids (and related types) and a few sudanids.”

          Actually an older anthropologist named Egon von Eickstedt said about how such a fold was very common in the Guinea in particular. Baker, again, refuses this with admittedly weaker evidence using data that was supposed to apply to blacks in a general sense.

          However I also agree with what you say as well regarding it’s prevalence in other black populations, just that I could honestly see such eyes being legit traits as even the current Ife Ooni have such but are slight more “clove” shape, though such still exist among the statues.

        • Jm8

          Some examples of Nupe and Igala people that, in my opinion, are quite like some Ife faces:

          The woman on the far left below kind of resembles the women in the sculpture in the second link down (both are conform to a fairly common Sahelian/savannah type)

          https://www.google.com/search?q=Igala+tribe&tbm=isch&source=lnms&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjksa3Q0ubTAhVn4YMKHdEmBGIQ_AUIBygC&biw=901&bih=833#imgrc=G-7WNngh0AFk-M:

          https://www.google.com/search?tbm=isch&q=ife+terracotta+queen&ei=Cr0TWYKBKcnN0wLpurmgAg&emsg=NCSR&noj=1#imgrc=ioTlVeANwQJP3M:

          https://www.google.com/search?q=Igala+tribe&tbm=isch&source=lnms&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjksa3Q0ubTAhVn4YMKHdEmBGIQ_AUIBygC&biw=901&bih=833#imgrc=phrpxR6mAENQOM:

          https://www.google.com/search?q=Igala+tribe&tbm=isch&source=lnms&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjksa3Q0ubTAhVn4YMKHdEmBGIQ_AUIBygC&biw=901&bih=833#tbm=isch&q=Igala+people&imgrc=ExHDJ-Yyh9Cw1M:

          https://www.google.com/search?q=Igala+tribe&tbm=isch&source=lnms&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjksa3Q0ubTAhVn4YMKHdEmBGIQ_AUIBygC&biw=901&bih=833#tbm=isch&q=Igala+people&imgrc=zOqRqdB5gRYNLM:

          Scarification marks (lines radiating from the corners of the mouth) somewhat like the man’s below are seen in a few Ife scrulptures (second from below):

          https://www.google.com/search?q=Igala+tribe&tbm=isch&source=lnms&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjksa3Q0ubTAhVn4YMKHdEmBGIQ_AUIBygC&biw=901&bih=833#tbm=isch&q=Igala+people&imgrc=1cndkoj0dHv11M:

          https://www.google.com/search?q=Igala+tribe&tbm=isch&source=lnms&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjksa3Q0ubTAhVn4YMKHdEmBGIQ_AUIBygC&biw=901&bih=833#tbm=isch&q=ife+terracotta+heads&imgrc=ljefCtssEo3BnM:

        • Jm8

          Edit: “…that are quite like a few/certain Ife faces, seemingly showing living examples of some of the anomalous thinner or more pointed tipped nose types seen in a few of the sculptures (as an occaisonally occuring native form in some Central Nigerian subgroups):”

        • Phil78

          jm8, I see the semblance with the lips and nose type, both being indicators of a phenotype, the head seems a tad short compared to the statue but the girls in general seem somewhat variable in mid face length so the statue wouldn’t look out of place.

          Do you have any examples of males that could correspond? I have a few in my own collection, but they were harder to find than females.

          http://www.jms.ndmctsgh.edu.tw/article.asp?issn=1011-4564;year=2016;volume=36;issue=2;spage=39;epage=45;aulast=Akinlolu

          http://www.cjhr.org/article.asp?issn=2348-3334;year=2016;volume=3;issue=2;spage=112;epage=118;aulast=Adelaja;type=3

          What have conviently enough are studies on yoruba college students in Ilorin that have features (narrow face and nose) that corresponds to what is seen in the Ife statues.

          This seems to contrast with what is seen with those from Oyo.

          https://www.researchgate.net/publication/235005716_Cephalofacial_Indices_of_the_Ibo_and_Yoruba_Ethnic_groups_in_Southern_Nigeria

          Then again, that statues themselves where more middle faced and seem more mesocepahlic, possibly a mixed of Palaenegrid and sudanid?

          I suspected this from that start, given how many have brow overhangs characteristic of stoutier palaenegrids despite longer faces.

          For example,

          Three Palaenegrid types (ignore the smoother ridged female one)

          https://www.google.com/search?q=ife+heads&rlz=1CAACAJ_enUS665US665&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjmxITC3-bTAhUBF2MKHTFcCc0Q_AUICigB&biw=1366&bih=630#imgrc=NtcbDSXIZFZtRM:

          possible Mixed types

          Purer sudanids

        • Jm8

          “From what I’ve read, in terms of average width, I would suspect it increase southwards.”

          I think you are probably right there. I was looking again at some pictures of Central African types (Fangs, Bamilekes, Bakongos) versus Sudanids (Wolofs, Mandinkas) and the former do seem to have an overall shorter and wider face.

          What you said about Sudands tending to have more outward projecting cheekbones (and paleonegrids more forward projecting) also seems to be true.

      • Phil78

        To jm8,

        sorry, when talking about the Berom individual I meant to typed (can be explained as)

  18. Old Iranian look 100% Aryan. Some younger ones may look a little more like Indians.

    • SHI

      That Iranian dude up there wouldn’t be out of place in Gujarat. A lot of Jain Gujaratis, but even the ones among the lowest caste look exactly like him. In fact, I know of a fella who looks exactly like him.

    • Jason Y

      That person could fit in some small town around Knoxville. Nobody would think nothing of it. Also, he could even be a mildly brown. Cause it’s all cultural, the way you dress and talk mostly, not the skin.

      The whole WN obsession with blonde hair and blue eyes doesn’t mean diddly beans around real small town US proles. Also, their whole agenda is generally seen as insane and dumb. More than likely, your typical prole is likely to vote Republican, be a Christian, be a little annoyed with blacks showing off their trailer park white girlfriends, and annoyed wth Mexicans whom he thinks are getting free welfare etc, ..

      • SHI

        The whole WN obsession with blonde hair and blue eyes doesn’t mean diddly beans around real small town US proles.

        I have met these types. From places like Georgia and Texas. They were very nice and friendly to me. I really got the feeling that I was awesomely welcome in their company, and that they wouldn’t mind me fornicating with their daughters. That was in Europe though which means my ideas of “Southern Hospitality” could be misplaced. After all, these good ol’ boys like to carry guns and like to spew Christo-Nazi nonsense about stuff like the Curse of Canaan.

        But, I have to confess. I did have a great time with the Southern Redneck types. One of them was an oil engineer with previous work experience in Dubai. He took me for a Middle-Eastern. I said, “Why not?”

        I told you once about this movie called “Masterminds” where we have stars like Zach Galifianakis, Owen Wilson, Jason Sudeikis and Kate McKinnon playing criminal, lowlife rednecks. It was fun definitely.

    • Jason Y

      The annoyance with blacks would not be because of the mulatto kids, mostly – but because the small town prole country type doesn’t like black males – associating them with prison, rap which the prole hates, saggy pants, the domination of pro-sports by blacks etc..

  19. siberiancat

    Most of the Kazan Tartars are white Caucasians.

    Here’s a picture of a popular Russian actor who’s a pure blood Kazan Tartar (or a Bulgar):

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