Updated March 29: Sexually-Motivated Double Homicide in Delphi, Indiana, February 13-14, 2017: Liberty German and Abigail Williams

Comments on this post are now closed. Commenters are directed to the update of this post here

Most of the red hot discussion about this case has moved over to the private password-protected threads. On this forum you can discuss people’s full names, addresses, phone numbers, you name it – you can accuse anyone of anything, and you don’t have to worry about the threat of a defamation or libel lawsuit. Furthermore, the forum is rigorously policed to keep out trolls, spies, and other disruptors. None of your comments will appear on Internet search engines – you can say anything you want under any name you want without leaving a permanent record on the Net. A vast amount of mostly unreleased photos, videos, and data is stored and discussed here. All of our material is turned over to LE, and my understanding is that LE monitors the private forum. At this moment, we have ~200 Websleuths working on the case. Instructions for joining those threads are here.

Note to commenters: Please stop referring to Unsub as a pedophile. He may well be one, but that’s something that cannot be determined from this crime, as it was not a pedophilic offense. Pedophilic crimes only refer to those against victims who are 12 years old and under.

A hebephilic crime would target a victim of 11-14 years of age. As you can see, there is some overlap around the tweens. Instead of being a pedophilic crime, this was a hebephilic offense. And while the perpetrator could certainly be seen as a hebephile, he’s not necessarily one. If you want to refer to the nature of the offense, use the word hebephilic instead of pedophilic. If you wish to refer to Unsub’s paraphilia, assuming  he even has one, please refer to him as a hebephile and not a pedophile.

Pedophilia: Strong or exclusive sexual preference for girls 12-under.

Hebephilia: Strong or exclusive sexual preference for girls ~11-14.

Age of victims: 13 and 14

You do the math.

Thank you so much for this. 

Note to commenters 2: I am getting tired of saying this over and over, but most of the material below is made up of rumors and my own opinions and theories. None of that is represented as fact. Furthermore, I am not using rumors as reliable sources as has been alleged. I never said they were reliable sources.

How reliable is a rumor? That’s for you to determine, but in general a rumor is not considered to be a reliable source, and they are not treated as such below. The only thing that is represented as fact are statements sourced from LE or the media. If you have issues with rumors, theories, opinions. etc., just quit reading right now and save yourself the heartache. 

Sexually-motivated double homicide of two teenage girls, one 13 and the other 14. For some background on this heartbreaking case, see here.

This is a brand new update of the case as of March 29, 2017. Mostly the whole post just got a total rewrite, mostly to clean it up but also to reduce its length. I removed ~1,000 words, so it should be easier to read. The post was also cleaned up in places where additions needed to be made. There is a bit of new information below. The most important of the new information is in italics below.

How Do I Know All This Stuff?

First: How do I know all this stuff?

Question: “Robert, How Do You Know So Much about Serial Killers, Pedophiles, Hebephiles and Sexual Sadists?”

I have done a lot of research on this case including released information, rumors and statements by LE. I have also spoken to people close to the case, including those close to the search party and LE. I also spoke to other sleuthers and people interested in the case. I am getting my very best information from people who are close to the girls’ families. Of all of the rumors and information I get, these are some of the best. Other information is derived from my own theorizing about the case.

So there’s the source of all of the information.

My Musings on This Case

Rumors state that Libby was killed on 2-13, possibly pretty quickly, and Abby died or 2-14. Rumors continue to state that Abbie lived at least for some time after she was attacked. She somehow survived an incredibly vicious attack, but she died later. Conclusion: It now appears that Abbie did indeed survive the initial attack and live for some time after her body was dumped. If the rumors about her body being warm are correct, then she survived for at least 2 hours after she was dumped. Considering her major wounds, it is nothing less than amazing that she was able to survive this long. Sources: People close to LE, people close to the families.

This was not a crime of opportunity. He planned this very well. He plans his crimes with the utmost meticulousness. That is why he is armed with the gun and disguising himself. Source: My speculation based on the nature of the offense and the obvious skill involved.

Unsub is 5’10, 180 pounds with a bit of a middle aged man’s stomach paunch. Other sleuths and common citizens are offering differing views, but I take the expert for now. Source: Expert on CNN, paunch obvious in photo.

In my opinion, Unsub’s age is ~60, but really who knows? LE’s latest estimate is that he is 40-50 years old, but that’s seems too young to me. At the very least, that style of pants is outdated, and nowadays is only worn by men over 40 in that area. Presence of fanny pack also indicates an older man. They were popular in the late 1980’s, but hardly anyone wears them anymore except for some middle aged men. Conclusion: At the moment, the LE estimate of 40-50 is the best guess, but that could still be off. Sources: LE, sleuths commenting on the photo.


Excellent drawing of Unsub from an LE artist.

LE believes that Unsub came from out of state to do this crime. I agree. Source: Recent remark by Indiana State Police quoted in media, my theory based on my favorite POI.

Clearly Unsub has a pistol, a .45 or 911. The pistol was holstered to his right side, which means he is left-handed. The outline of the pistol can clearly be seen in the photo released of the man. A photo exists showing the pistol outlined with graphic software. Source: Gun is obviously visible in photograph. Left-handedness concluded from the holstered gun pointing backwards on the right side.


Photo clearly shows a semiautomatic .911 or 45 mm handgun holstered on his right, which means he is left-handed. If you cannot see that obvious gun there, I do not know what to say to you.

Unsub may be trying to disguise himself in the photos by using a hat and a scarf. Source: LE.


The killer appears to be wearing a camouflage cap. He is an example of one type.

Unsub is wearing a hat, a jacket with a hoodie and blue jeans in the photo. In my opinion, the hat is a camouflage hunting cap with padded ear muffs. Unsub is overdressed for the weather. He seems to have layers of clothing on. He has almost his entire body covered with clothing. Part of this is no doubt to disguise himself, but another reason is so he will have few exposed areas of his body where the girls could leave scratch marks if the girls fight back hard, although they still could scratch up his face pretty well. Source: LE, my own theorizing and conjecture, common sense.


Another camouflage cap. I like this one a lot better, and to me it matches very well with the cap worn by Unsub in the bridge photo.

The fanny pack is probably where he kept his murder kit. Sources: My conjecture. What else could be in that pack?


GIF image of Unsub photos run together.

There has been much talk about whether or not there were two murderers or one. There was good reason to believe the two killers theory, especially as LE appeared to be endorsing it. We have not heard anything about the two killers theory for some time now, so that is becoming a weak rumor. Last I heard was that LE was leaning to one killer.  Conclusion: Two killers or one? No one knows! Source: A variety of LE statements.

There have been persistent rumors since even before the case was released to the media (these early rumors coming from family members) that Abbie survived until the next day, 2-14. The were different rumors, including that she was found alive but died on the way to the hospital, that she was alive when found but died soon after, that the coroner said she survived the attack but died of hypothermia in the woods, that her body was still warm when found, etc.

These rumors started almost instantly from people close to the family. We now have some excellent information that she somehow survived the attack and tried to crawl a ways away until she died. I am still getting reports that Abbie died on 2-14, and her body was still warm when found from some of my best sources close to the families, so this version is still strong.

Conclusion: The best analysis now is that Abbie did indeed survive the initial attack and died at some point later on on 2-14. The thing we do not know is how long she survived after she was attacked. We do not know if she died soon after the attack or if she lingered for anywhere from 2-7 hours, which is my theory. Sources: Rumors, people close the family, people close to LE.

Rumors from the search party stated that the girls had to have been moved since the dump site found on 2-14 had been searched on 2-13. The searchers were adamant that they had searched the dump site thoroughly on 2-13. But the girls were covered with leaves, which would have made them hard to find at night.

On the other hand, there is now evidence stating that searchers ran a thermal imager over the area on 2-13 (perhaps with an aircraft?), and while there were plenty of living things down there, none of them were human. In other words, the only things alive in that woods when the imager was run were wild animals. One would think that if the girls had been put there by 4 PM or so on 2-13 that the bodies would have shown up on the thermal imager. Sources: People close to the search party, people close to the families, leak from LE.

There is a rumor about how the girls were moved to the dump site. The rumor said that searchers followed drag marks, presumably left by the girls, to the dump site. So the killer returned the girls to the forest where they were abducted somehow. But this might not be difficult if he had kept them alive in, say, an outbuilding on Ron Logan’s land in order to use the girls overnight. No searchers would have gone near Ron Logan’s outbuildings as they were located far from the search zone, so he had no fear of being caught. On the other hand, the killer may have moved the girls to some other outbuilding, possibly even aways away where he raped and killed or tried to kill them

It is not known how the killer kept the girls quiet, but perhaps he terrorized the girls with a gun or perhaps he had gagged them. They were definitely bound when they were kept in this outbuilding. It also makes sense that he would have kept them alive during this time. No doubt the killer remained with the girls the whole time they were in the outbuilding.

I believe that the homicidal attack on the girls, no doubt the throat slitting, may have been done not long before they were dumped on the hill. One more thing we need to note is that there is no way the killer dumped those bodies there on 2-13 or even up until 2:30 AM on 2-14, as there were loud and obvious searchers with their shouts and lights in the area. You don’t dump bodies right in the middle of a search party that is looking for just those bodies. No one does that.

Yet somehow he dumped those bodies there between 2:30 AM-9:30 AM on 2-14, as the second search began at 9:30 AM. The bodies would have been dumped there at night. Dawn was 7:40 AM on 2-14 so the bodies were dumped there between 2:30-7:30 AM.

There is a rumor says that the killer thrust a large pointed wooden stick into Abbie’s stomach. This brutal spearing must have occurred at the dump site, especially since even that spearing somehow did not kill Abbie! He would not have speared her before being placed at the dump site because it makes no sense to drag a girl with a spear in her down a hill. Further, Abbie survived the spearing, which means she must have been speared at the dump site.

Obviously they were dragged down the hill, placed at the dump site, and then the killer speared Abbie in the stomach as one final “F- you” to the poor girl. This final Parthian thrust shows the profound rage, hatred and contempt that this killer must have felt for his victims.

Yet how could the killer have known about a break in the searchers so he could do his early morning dumping in a ~3-4 time window? This is something I never understood. Did he have a partner or lookout on the property who notified him when the coast was clear? Makes little sense. Occam’s Razor offers us a simpler choice. Of course he knew when there was break in the searchers so he could body-dump. He knew this because he never left Logan’s property the whole time! He never left the area. He just stayed there, hiding with his victims in plain sight, so to speak. Source: Leaks from LE, people close to the families, my own theorizing.

Someone posted photos supposedly from the crime scene on a website frequented by Delphi residents. The photo was quickly taken down, but a number of people saw it anyway. The photo shows the two dead girls and the coroner. The person who posted the photo had some text saying that the bodies are positioned in an odd way. The only sense that he could make out of this odd posing of the bodies is that he thought it might have been some sort of a ritual, possibly a Satanic ritual. I believe this is called “posing” the bodies and is a favorite with serial killers. There are no details on how the girls were positioned. Source: A number of people who saw the Delphi resident’s web page.

The crime scene does not make sense in this case. The girls seem to have been attacked soon after Unsub said, “Go down the hill.” The entire south side of the creek was roped off as a crime scene. I do not feel that this is a homicide site; instead, I feel there was some sort of an altercation here as he tried to put them in a vehicle he had placed there for this purpose.

People are now saying that the whole attack was over soon after it began, and there are reports saying that the 6-minute audiotape contains the horrifying record of a homicide. This would imply that the girls were murdered very quickly. But when they were found, they were bound and had been sexually brutalized as well as being very badly beaten. One would think this would take some time to do.

Also there would be a lot of noise if they were killed right away on the south side of the creek, and someone surely would have heard. The degree of the assault indicating a significant assault over a period of time and the lack of witnesses hearing noise or screams on the south side of the creek implies to me that the attacks took place elsewhere, perhaps in some remote structure. If they were in a remote structure, he could have assaulted them a long time without being seen, and the sound of the assault and the girls’ screams could easily not have been heard, as there was no one nearby. Reports now state that LE believes that the girls were assaulted and attempts were made to kill them in some sort of a structure somewhere, perhaps on Ron Logan’s property.

Reports that the crime was over quickly after it began do not make sense for a variety of reasons. Furthermore, assuming Abbie’s body was still warm when found, if she was murdered at 4 PM on the south side, how does she linger for 17 1/2 hours until the next day? Simple, it didn’t happen. And if he killed them right away and did not dump them on the north side until early AM 2-14, this means that the killer drove around in his vehicle with two dead or near-dead girls in the car with him. And he would have had to drive with those bodies in the car for 10 1/2 hours. That didn’t happen.

However, there is some brutal audio and perhaps video that Liberty recorded on her phone. Some of the audio was recorded right before the abduction, and there is 40 minutes after that. The audio right after the recording of the man saying, “Down the hill,” records the girls screaming.

Does that imply that the girls were attacked soon after being told to go down the hill? Yes.

There are serious problems with the matter of Libbie’s phone. However, whatever was recorded on the phone was surely recorded before 5:30 PM 2-13. After that time and for several hours, Liberty’s phone was pinging all over town which means it was not in Liberty’s possession and was probably lying somewhere in the forest where she discarded it.

The assumption then is that Liberty discarded the phone in the woods before 5:30 PM, and then the phone pinged all over town looking for a signal for several hours before dying. The problem with this theory is that if she threw the phone in the woods, it should have been found by now. And the latest rumor is that Liberty’s phone was not found by LE. The audio and video were obtained from the Cloud, as video and audio from smartphones are saved very quickly after being recorded. So LE didn’t even need the phone because all the relevant information was on the Cloud.

OK, so why was Liberty’s phone pinging all over town for several hours during the search? This would make sense if the phone was in the woods, but it appears now that the phone was not in the woods. So why did it ping all over town? Perhaps it was discarded in some other remote part of the town area.

The killer had the two girls in his remote structure soon after they were abducted. If the structure was not far from the dump site, the phone could have been on Liberty’s body while she was in the structure as Logan’s property is near the forest where they were taken. Perhaps in the process of disrobing her, the killer found Liberty’s cellphone. Perhaps it was dead by this point.

Under this scenario, Unsub either disposed of or destroyed the phone after it died, and this is why it has never been found. Perhaps he smashed it to bits. Perhaps he discarded it in the garbage somewhere. Of course, all of this makes sense if the latest rumors about LE not finding the phone are correct.

This is the first rumor that says anything about whether the phone was found or not. Up to now, we had no word from LE or rumors about the disposition of the phone. Conclusion: We don’t even know if the phone was found by LE or not. Rumors are now saying that the phone was not recovered. If it was not, there are all sorts of problems dealing with the phone. Nothing about this phone makes much sense, and we will just have to leave it at that. Source: People close to the search party, people close to the case.

There is a theory from people close to the family saying that the actual killings took place on the north side of the creek, However, it was the south side that was roped off as a crime scene, not the north side. Yes, the tape was removed two days later, but so what? This is standard procedure in a park. But if the south side was not a homicide scene but instead some other sort of scene such as an abduction scene, it could have been gone over quickly, and there would be no reason to keep it roped off.

The girls were not attacked much at the dump site, as the dump site was described as pristine. Conclusion: The best theory right now is that the south side was the scene of some scuffle probably as he was trying to tie them up or get them in his vehicle. The best evidence now suggests that the girls were killed somewhere else, apparently in some structure. But no one knows where this structure might be. Sources: LE, media reports, sleuths.

The FBI interviewed a man who had property on the south side of the creek. They asked about his gun(s), his vehicle(s) and whether there were any outbuildings. From this we can conclude that the FBI believes that a gun, a vehicle and an outbuilding were used in this crime. The major searches of Ron Logan’s land, the structures there, etc. imply to me that the girls were murdered somewhere on Logan’s land, probably in some structure on his land. But then why is nothing roped off on Logan’s land? At any rate, the repeated searches of Logan’s property do not imply that Logan is guilty so much as that he is the owner of property where a serious crime occurred.

In addition, the notion of a structure fits well into the very earliest statements from family members 1.5 hours before the media even reported the crime saying that the girls were found raped and killed in a cabin. Since the girls were found dumped in the forest, the rumor about being found in a cabin made no sense.

But now there is a way that we tie this all together. Sure, the cabin or structure played a serious role in the crime, but not as a dump site. Instead, the cabin was the place where they were abused, raped and killed! Then they were dumped a short ways away. So the Cabin Theory makes a new appearance, this time making a lot more sense. Sources: Family members, people close to the family, leaks from LE.

Just in, there is a new rumor stating that LE says that Liberty could have escaped several times, but she chose to stay by her best friend’s side to the end. In real life, they were inseparable. That means that Libby is truly a hero for giving her life in order not to abandon her friend. And it makes this crime even more sad. Source: Person close to the family.

There is indeed a voice recording of Unsub saying, “Go down the hill.” The next thing you hear on the tape is the girls screaming. This is part of an audiotape heroically recorded by Libby by turning on the recorder on her phone as the girls were being abducted. It has also been implied, terrifyingly, that the audio is actually a recording of the rapes and murders. Source: People close to the family.

There is a new rumor just in that says that there is not 6 minutes of video/audio but instead there is 40 minutes of video/audio! Someone posted this on a site that the families frequent, and no family members asked to take it down for being inaccurate, so there is something to it. I believe there is little more video, and most of that 40 minutes is audio. And I have heard that it’s ugly and nasty stuff, so terrifying that LE does not want to release it. Strong rumor. Source: Posting on a website frequented by the families of the girls.

There is talk of a white Ford Mustang that can be barely seen in the lower left of the photo of Abbie on the bridge below the bridge. No one even knows if that is a car or not in that photo. Many people say they cannot make out a vehicle in the photo.

However, new information says that that only vehicle that could have been in the location of the “Mustang” would have been an SUV because it is so hard to get to that area by vehicle. That road is a very little-used road that almost no one has even heard of. It appears to have been a road used by workers to maintain the bridge. A new rumor says that LE believes that the killer’s vehicle was parked at a trail head on the south side. Source: Sleuths analyzing the photo of Libby on the bridge, people close to the family.


A possible vehicle can barely be seen circled in blue.


The “vehicle” is very hard to make out in this photo, but I do see what appears to be a vehicle in that photo. At any rate, no one even knows if there is a vehicle in that photo or not.

Libby’s grandfather who raised her said, “I know Libby. She put up one Hell of a fight.” He is correct that Libby put up a strong battle. The reason that the grandfather said she put up a wild fight is probably because that is what it says in the medical report. If she fought hard, there will be talk of defensive wounds and maybe DNA under her nails. The condition of her body at the funeral adds weight to the notion that she fought back very hard and sustained many defensive wounds because she had many small wounds on her body and face. In that case, Unsub may have scratch marks. Source: Media reports, people at the funeral, common sense.

I believe the gun obviously holstered on the right under the jacket of Unsub was probably used to control the girls. He also got them to keep quiet with the gun. However, I do not believe the gun was used to kill the girls. It would have made too much noise. Furthermore, no gunshots were reported in the area around the time of the abduction. Source: Common sense, witness reports.

There is a rumor that both girls had their throats slit. This is a strong rumor. Funerals were open casket, and both girls had scarves covering their necks, more to cover something up than as clothing. This adds weight to the theory that their throats were slit.

There is a rumor about the knife attack on one of the girls, surely Liberty, saying she was nearly decapitated. This is a strong rumor. Since Abbie survived the assault for at least some time afterwards, it was surely Liberty who was nearly decapitated. It would have been almost impossible for Abbie to survive a near-decapitation. No one can survive that.

In fact, it appears that the the wound to Abbie’s throat was not a particularly grievous wound. In other words, if he was trying to kill her, he did a poor job of it. Although the rumor that their throats were slit is only a rumor, it is interesting that there have been no counter-rumors saying this method of attack is not true. One would think that if there were any doubt about this sort of attack, we would have heard at least one counter-rumor by now. Sources: Family members, people close to LE,  people at the funeral.

There is a rumor saying that both girls were beaten so badly in their faces that they were nearly unrecognizable. This rumor may well be true, but at least Abbie was fixed up pretty good in her face for the funeral, so one wonders how a funeral director could have covered up such devastating wounds. Source: Source close to the family.

This offense was clearly sexually motivated, and it seems quite clear that sexual assault occurred in the course of the crime. The very first rumors from the family members said both girls had been raped. There is a rumor that says that while both girls were raped, Libby was sexually assaulted worse than Abby was, but I am not sure what that implies. With this rumor, it seems quite clear that both girls were raped. Sources: Family members, people close to LE, general rumors, sources close to family.

There is uncertain information about the state of the bodies when found. All rumors indicate that Abbie was nude. There are differing reports about Liberty, some saying she was clothed and some saying she was also nude. Considering that clothing was found in the creek in an attempt to eliminate DNA evidence, it does not make sense that the killer would leave probable DNA-contaminate clothing on Liberty’s body. Abbie’s clothes were surely found in the water, and common sense would indicate that Liberty’s were too. Conclusion: The theory that best explains the facts is that both girls were found nude. Sources: Rumors, sources close to the family.

We still have no idea if DNA of Unsub was collected from the scene. LE is being very tight-lipped about this. Source: A good source in Delphi, LE, media reports.

There is a rumor that boot prints were found at the scene. These boots are thought to have been worn by Unsub. This would make sense, as LE had some boots in an evidence bag a few days after the killings. They innocuously said that the boots had nothing to do with the crime, but they were probably lying. They probably did not recover Unsub’s actual boots themselves. Why would Unsub discard his boots at the crime scene and walk away shoeless? Makes no sense. It is more likely that LE matched the boot prints to that type and size of boot, indicating that Unsub was wearing boots of that make and size at the time of the crime. Sources: LE, source in Delphi.

The girls’ clothing was found in the creek. This was no doubt an attempt by Unsub to destroy any DNA evidence. Source: Statements from reporter at the scene, common sense.

There is an incredible rumor that victim Abigail Williams, age 13, was pregnant at the time of the attack. It is now known that she definitely had a boyfriend, who was 16 years old. He has been located, and we know his name. At the moment this is a weak rumor, but it does explain some other things such as the spearing attack. Source: A sleuth.

There is very gruesome rumor saying that Abbie’s body was found with a pointed branch driven into her stomach. In other words, Unsub stood over Abbie and plunged the stick into her belly, pinioning her like a shishkebab. If this is true, it is even more incredible for her to survive the attack and even to crawl around with a stick in her body. Source: A source close to the family.

Tying together both of the shocking rumors is the suggestion that Unsub knew that Abbie was pregnant, and the stick attack was an attempt to kill the fetus too. Although this makes sense, one wonders how he could have possibly known that she was pregnant given that she was not very far along. Look at Abbie in the bridge photo. Does she look pregnant in that photo? So how would Unsub discover that she was pregnant? When people are under the control of a potentially murderous person who is assaulting them with what looks like homicidal intent, a lot of victims make various pleas to their attacker(s) to please spare their lives.

These take the form of appeals such as, “Please, no, I have a wife and three kids!…No, spare me, I am the sole breadwinner for my family of five!,” etc. I am sure there are many more. Victims make all sorts of pleas and engage in various manipulations of the person assaulting them in an attempt to stay alive. Most people do not want to die and will try all sorts of desperate measures in an attempt to not be murdered.

Sometimes they work, the attacker has a change of heart and decides to spare one or more victims. If Abbie pleaded with Unsub that he would be killing not just her but another potential life, then Unsub would have learned of her pregnancy. Source: Speculation by me and a fellow sleuth.

There is now a lot of talk that Ron Logan or perhaps his son were involved in this crime. Logan was arrested recently on a probation violation for a drunk driving case. This set the rumor mill wild as there was much talk that Logan was involved in the murders. He was jailed for a week or so and a secondary search of his land was conducted. Many took this to mean that Logan was the killer. Logan was released after his probation violation hearing, which means that LE does not consider him a suspect in the murders. Furthermore, Logan always seemed an unlikely suspect for me for many reasons. Source: News reports.

There is a rumor out saying that the case against Ron Logan is completely corrupt and is being led by a man who could care less if Logan did these crimes or not. All this man wants is to see Logan destroyed. This man is another local with whom Logan had a falling out. The man has money and has long wanted to buy Logan’s 40 acres, however, Logan was never willing to sell. Logan’s property is said to be choice land with waterfalls, etc.

This man figures if he can get Logan prosecuted for murder or at least have his life ruined by these allegations, then at some point, Logan will sell his land, possibly to pay his legal bills. This man figures that ruining Ron Logan will allow this man to somehow acquire Logan’s property. Source: Source close to the families.

Three other posts in this series:

Updated March 9: Profile of the Evansdale-Delphi Serial Killer

The Case for Unsub Involvement in Both the Delphi and Evansdale Double Murders

The Case for Linking the Delphi Murders with the Evansdale Murders

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Filed under Crime, Criminology, Law enforcement, Midwest, Regional, Serial Killers, Sociology, USA

242 responses to “Updated March 29: Sexually-Motivated Double Homicide in Delphi, Indiana, February 13-14, 2017: Liberty German and Abigail Williams

  1. websloths

    Thanks for the update, Robert! Don’t let the haters drag you down!

    This guy is either good or lucky or both. I wouldn’t be surprised when they find him, it’s announced that he could be tied into many, many similar crimes all over the country where living victims are too scared to speak or bodies either have not been found, or were in poor condition and COD was impossible to tell.

    This old saying rings true:

    A criminal needs to be lucky every single time, the authorities, they just need one stroke of luck.

  2. Bo

    I didn’t know Libby or Abby personally but I feel like this case consumes me. I wake up thinking about them and I go to bed thinking about them. The things that they must have endured flashes through my mind many times throughout the day. I appreciate your “sleuthing” and trying to piece this all together. Those precious girls deserve justice. Their families deserve justice.

  3. Mer

    I think this is a case without any evidence. It’s hard for me to call this thing a master criminal, because he might think it a compliment. The only way they will get a conviction in this case is if he talks……


    • These guys are damn good. That is why they are so damn hard to catch. This guy did two girls at once! Took them away for a while, abused and tried to murder them, and then brought them back to the abduction site and dumped them, all more or less without being seen by a soul. The lack of evidence is by design. These guys are so damn good they know how to destroy evidence or not leave it in the first place.

      This guy is either a serial already or he’s going to be one. If this was his first, he will DEFINITELY do more crimes like this in the future. If he’s already done this, then he’s a serial with this crime at least.

      There is no way on Earth that some amateur like Ron Logan, who has never done a thing like this in his life, pulls this off at age 77. Just forget it. This guy knows what he is doing. He probably does many practice runs before he goes for a kill. He plans the whole thing out down to T perfectly. There’s no point underestimating him. It’s a bad idea to underestimate your enemy.

      Also this guy is one sick fuck. I do not buy that someone who has been hiding in plain sight being a good citizen all these years snaps and does a crime like this. This guy’s a sicko and that’s rather hard to hide. I bet people who know him well say he’s mean and they are afraid of him. There may be speculations of psychopathy or sexual weirdness. He’s not right in the head and these guys don’t exactly blend in. With the Green River Killer, his coworkers used to joke that he was the killer because the truck painter was so damn creepy. It’s not unusual for these guys to seem creepy or scary in regular life.

      Even BTK Killer looked mean as a snake. I don’t believe he was a model citizen. Look how mean he looks. And I heard that he was tyrant with his family.

      A master criminal is still a criminal. An evil genius is still a genius. You have to respect your adversary in a sense. A famous general in WW2 kept a photo of the general of the unit he was fighting on his desk so he could look at it all the time.

      • Speaking of that ‘Mustang’. It is nearer the top of the bridge than what most people assume. It actually stares you in the face. Looks to be the rear end of the car backed up the hill, statiuned for a fast exit.

        Find the RR tie with the nail/screw protruding, about the 4th tie out and look to the immediate left. Walla, the car is right there.

        I am sure LE was able to get a full or at least partial license plate from this photo.

        The taillights might be three lens alternating turn signal types that were popular on ‘Stanges’.

    • Kimby

      Au contraire, although it’s unclear whether there is DNA evidence, thanks to Libby’s foresight in a time of extreme danger there are photos and a voice recording.

      That may have to be enough. She paid an extreme price to provide that evidence.

  4. Dlux

    Here’s a thought, after listening to the released audio, has anyone interpretted as “Go down there”. Perhaps, unsub has a speech impediment. This would further explain his psychee and background, as well as narrow in the suspects even tighter. That said, we can probably come to the conclusion that LE has heard more samples of unsub speaking and ruled out the possibility of a speech impediment.

    One more question/thought. With the vehicle parked on the access road on the south side of the creek (yes, it is clear a vehicle is parked there in the enhanced image) has anyone considered unsub climbed one the access ladders for the repair platforms on the bridge? It really hasn’t been discussed where he started on the bridge and I think most assume he came from the north entrance meaning he would have had to cross the creek by foot prior to the crime.

    This also opens the possibility of a second suspect. Drop unsub off at trail head, drive suv to access road, wait for girls. Would love to hear your thoughts.

    • I have long thought there were two suspects in this case. LE even said so once at a press conference. Yes, two killers would make this whole thing so much easier.

    • Mer

      I agree this would make sense. If Unsub worked alone, he would have left his car on private property. He might just be met by the landowner or the Sheriff when he arrived back to his car.

      • Isn’t the SUV on private property also? Any access to the SE of the bridge is private property, right? So if there are person(s) in that SUV, then they are on private property also, no?

        How bout this? SUV drops off Unsub. Unsub walks from south to north end of the bridge and waits under the fallen tree and hides until he can strike. He’s probably in contact with the SUV guys somehow. He makes his move and contacts SUV guys. SUV guys go to the SE end of the bridge and wait. Unsub travels north to south on the bridge behind the girls and sneaks up on them. He abducts them and quickly takes them down to the hill to the SUV which has not been waiting there very long.

        Make sense?

        • Dlux

          Yes, this is a very likely scenario. It would make more sense to drop unsub off at south end on access road rather than north end as you would be much more out of sight. Really makes for a quick getaway and throws everyone off the investigative trail.

          Additionally, there were several ppl on or near the bridge minutes after the abductions and had no clue anything had happened. If theories of dragging girls across creek are true (which I obviously don’t agree with), he would have had to get across with both girls silently in just a few minutes. Seems highly unlikely. Also, other than snapping the pic of the SUV by Libby (accidentally?), I am not sure this is on LE’s radar.

        • Mer

          If there are 2 guys, then he didn’t need to walk SE to NW across the bridge.

          They arrive early and check out the trails. They walk around and act like they don’t know each other. They get a feel for the human traffic on the trail system. They already know how to access the SE end of the bridge from the private road. Their plans are fluid. If they could abduct a target from another part of the trail, they would have, but they see these girls and see them start across the bridge. When they see that, subject 2 begins to drive to the area on the SE end of the bridge. Unsub follows the girls across. As he takes them ‘down the hill’ they may even see the car and think it’s someone who can help them.

          The drive from the trail to the private road is less than 10 minutes, about the same time it takes to cross the bridge. The bridge is 850 feet long and is 501 railroad ties.

          Subject 2 may be the man in black.

  5. Joyce

    I was just reading in fb page that they had DNA not on file , they have not found the weapon. just waiting i guess to get him on some offense to get DNAi also the whole thing is on the tape

  6. Mer

    The more I look at this, the more confused I become. Do they have Unsub’s DNA or not? Do they have video? And is it a little or a lot? If you go to the crime scene area, you get a feeling that the information we know doesn’t entirely make sense. I think LE has done a good job of keeping any evidence unknown to us. We just don’t know what LE knows. Hopefully that will be the key to finding this guy

    • Dlux

      To me these are the 3 main keys in the entire case:
      1. The SUV parked on the access road, which would almost confirm multiple killers
      2. The secondary crime scene – where the girls were held during the search
      3. The A/V evidence from Libby’s phone
      4. A fourth that could throw a wrench in everything would be if the rumor of pregnancy by Abbie was confirmed. This would add a much much longer list of suspects, motives, etc.

      While DNA evidence is nice, I feel it should be used as more of a confirmation that Unsub(s) was indeed in contact with both girls. In cases where someone is killed by a friend or loved one and DNA places them at the scene, I feel less than compelled to find them guilty if no other evidence is present. DNA is left behind everywhere.

      • Mer

        I hope they have DNA. Tell me about the SUV

      • What SUV parked on the access road. You mean the access road on the south side? Do we know there was an SUV parked there? How do we know this?

        • Dlux

          It’s the pic of Abbie with the alleged white Mustang. I am 100% positive the vehicle circled in the pic isn’t a white Mustang, but can say with some certainty it is a dark colored, late model SUV.

        • Mer

          What vehicles were rumored to be in the area, and what is the type of source was it?

      • Not sure, I am still trying to figure out what vehicles were in the area at the time.

        • Shane D. Carender

          No disrespect meant to anyone working to solve this, but from what I have read, the highest point on the bridge is ~70′, so any vehicle under the bridge would appear fairly clearly in a photo, and would not seem small like a hotwheels car or toy. The average home is around 50 to 80′ in width, so think of like a car parked at one side of your house while you stand on the other.

      • Mer

        i don’t see an SUV in the enlargement of the photo. I do think I see a car and a man.
        Look at the enlarged photo of the area south of the bridge–the enlargement under the screenshot of Abby on the bridge.

        Look at the exact center of the photo. That is a trunk or hood of a light colored car. I think the trunk. Look below that point and you see a tire and a light artifact of a wheel.

        Now, look above the trunk. That is a man in dark clothing and a dark hat. His face is a white blob. His clothing appears darker than the background. I think he may even have his left hand up to his left ear. The diet background appears magenta, but his torso appears black.

        If you look at the left half of the photo, you can see a straight horizontal line. This is the top of the door. Above that you can see the roof of the car, and I believe the seat and headrest.

        What do you think?

  7. Dlux

    Mer, I could get on board with your man in black –
    driver theory, however if he waited to drive to access road until they saw the girls, why did we see the SUV parked in the pic of Abbie on the bridge? The girls must have taken their sweet time to get halfway across and unsub had to wait to enters bridge until girls were almost across the bridge altogether, as we don’t see him on the bridge in the first pic. Secondly, how did the driver and unsub know they were going to stop and take pics that would buy each suspect some much needed time. I am not saying your theory isn’t right, it just seems this guy or guys hit every single break perfectly. Of course, my opinion is this was not the first time unsub has committed a heinous act. I believe this was very calculated and these girls were targeted, rather than random.

    • Mer

      We don’t see an SUV in the photo. That is not even the private road anyway. I think he was very lucky. For instance, the prevailing opinion is that he brought the girls bodies back in the middle of the night and dragged them hundreds of yards thru difficult terrain–impossible terrain–and returned their bodies to a spot 100 yards from the abduction site..
      He was probably completely unaware that a search was in progress. He just happened to bring them back after the search had ended for the night.

      I’m starting to think they weren’t taken from the woods, and just overlooked in the search

      • Dlux

        Possibly – but I think he knew exactly what he was doing here. Also, should we assume he drug the bodies and didn’t walk the bodies, I. E. They weren’t killed until the middle of the night at the site they were found. From everything I have heard, he really did some unspeakable things. I just find it hard to think this was done in a few short minutes after dragging them across the creek.

        Also, I definitely see a vehicle that resembles an SUV in the pic. Maybe I can draw an outline of what I see and everyone can comment and see if they agree/disagree.

        As far as the service road goes, in relation to the circled pic, where would it be from there? I am not familiar with the site. I was going to pop over there today, but couldn’t make it.

        Thanks for sharing your thoughts, I love to hear others opinions as we are just trying to finish this puzzle together.

        • Mer

          I said in an earlier post that if the Abby photo shows a car to the south of the bridge, that it must be on a secondary road–a dirt road that runs along the creek. The photo shows the ‘car’ beside the river. I have no idea if there is a road there or not.

        • Dlux

          It appears based on some drone footage I watched online, there is an access road right beside the creek on the south side. Folks are claiming this was a service road for railroad maintenance crews and would be hard to navigate without a 4×4. Seems like this could the parking spot. However, it also appears to be pretty wide open in regards to being able to see the vehicle clearly parked there when looking down from the north side. It’s hard to think multiple people weren’t involved with this if the SUV theory proves to be true.

          I would expect this case to go cold rather quickly.

        • Mer

          I can’t find any drone footage. Is it on youtube?

        • Is an SUV the equivalent of a 4 X 4?

      • He raped them and killed them right there in those woods in broad daylight will all those people around? And nobody hearing one peep? Hard to believe. Also they ran a thermal imager over that whole area that night, and they found only animals.

        And why is the FBI asking landowners questions about an outbuilding?

        • Lotus

          How do you know a thermal imager was used?

          And was it used on the private land on which the bodies were found?

        • Hi, from one of my best sources, a woman who is close to the families. I believe it was used over the whole area. We were discussing whether the bodies could have been there since the afternoon of 2-13, and she gave some arguments against that including that an imager was used over the whole area and found only wild animals.

        • Lotus

          A thermal imager only sees live people, not dead people. For obvious reasons. So, a thermal imager not seeing the bodies does not mean the bodies were not there, because a thermal imager does not see dead bodies.

        • Yes but we have a barrage of statements along the lines that Abbie was barely alive, alive, or only recently dead (within last 3 hours) when found at 12 PM 2-14. For this to be true, she must have been alive if she was killed in the woods on afternoon of 2-13. And the searchers were adamant that they searched that area. Permission to search it was granted by Logan on 2-13 at 6:30 PM so a lot of the search after that may well have been on his land.

    • Mer

      Dlux, the screenshot of Abby on the bridge is taken about 220 feet from the NW end of the bridge–about a fourth of the way across. I think the girls were slowly walking across the bridge. A determined person could cross the bridge in under 10 minutes/

  8. Steve Mathis

    Robert, Here’s another crazy theory on this. I know you think the Evansdale and these murders are linked. Have you ever considered the Amber Hagerman case could be also linked? Two strange coincidences, she was abducted on January 13, 1996. There’s that 13 again. Other similarity, her throat was cut. This guy could have been operating for years. Note the Amber Hagerman case is the case that inspired the “Amber Alert” law.

    • Dlux

      Wow, very similar set of circumstances. Robert, can you tell us anything about Mr. X, your POI for delphi and evansdale, did he have ties to or ever live in Dallas?

    • The 13th again. Wow. And throat-cutting again. Wow.

      Was there a witness in the case? Did anyone who abducted Amber?

      • Dlux

        One man who called the cops was the only earthly witness. This case is cold.

        Tell us more about the bloody initials left at the crime scene. This is news to me. Plus, do they have a sense of where the outbuilding may be?

        Lastly, I believe you can see unsub in the woods to the right of the trailhead in abbies pic on bridge. Saw this circled on another site and followed up on it. Seems to be legit. When should we expect another update to this article?

        • There needs to be an update. But I have terrible allergies such that I cannot even work at a regular job and have to survive off a small trust fund. And I am just nuked 24-7 these days. But I need to write that up anyway.

        • I assume that the initials all over the crime scene means the scene was an outbuilding somewhere. And I assume if they found this crime scene outbuilding, they must no where it is. But it seems like they are not telling us where this crime scene is. They sure are tight-lipped about this case.

        • Mer


          I can’t make out the image of a man in the woods to the right of the trailhead. Could you describe where you think he is?

          I’ve been to the trail. There is a fallen tree trunk near the NW end that would be the perfect, easiest spot for a man to sit and wait–concealed.

          One thing the photo does show is the trail from that end of the bridge to the cemetery and Logan’s property. It appears as 2 trails behind Abby which go to her right arm–closer to her shoulder than her elbow. Then 1 trail continues in that direction, extending from her lower chest.

          The trails are discontinuous, faint dirt lines in the photo, but if you know they are there, they can be seen. I assume they would lead to the site where the bodies were found.

          Unsub would have been on these trails to plan the crime. From this trail he would have seen the access to the drop site and he would have seen the barn that I suggest was involved.

          It would be unlikely for Unsub to use this trail to dispose of his victims. He would have been parked directly across from a beautiful, old home to access the trail at this spot, and he would have been in the very center of the search that had just occurred.

      • Did the man see anything in the Amber case?

        Mr. X never lived in Texas. He has lived in Ohio, Tennessee, Kentucky and Iowa.

        I do not know if they were bloody. But that latest leak is direct from LE, and I can prove it. He said that an initial was written all over the crime scene. He didn’t say if it was in blood. The dump spot was pristine and the abduction spot has been opened up and people have walked over every inch of that land since then. If he killed them in the forest, did he write initials all over the trees? That’s weird. Someone would have seen that by now.

        It’s a safe bet they were not killed in the forest. If there is an initial written all over the crime scene, I gather the crime scene is the interior of some structure somewhere.

        They thought they initial was his calling card of mark or whatever. Sort of like he was marking his kills.

        • Mer

          I have not seen a posting here about the crime scene being found.
          You say the scene was marked with an initial…

        • Jenny Brown

          Amber Hagerman’s body was also found in a creek and police believe she was kept alive at least 2 days before she was murdered. I don’t know if there was a bridge nearby or not. The witness said the guy he saw was at least 25, which if he is Bridge Guy would make him at least 45 now which seems in line with Bridge Guy’s age. He was also said to be either “Hispanic or white” and driving a blue truck. There was only 1 victim in this case but maybe he was working alone then? If mr. X didn’t ever live in Texas, is it possible he could have had a delivery route there, like he did in Delphi? The similarities do seem to be worth looking into.

        • He was living in Tennessee at the time I believe. That’s pretty far from Texas.

        • Steve Mathis

          In the Amber Case, and old man witnessed a white or maybe Hispanic guy get out of a “Dark” colored truck and grabbed Amber off her bike. She was riding around her house. Amber screamed and kicked but was abducted, they found her body 5 days later in a drainage ditch. No one has ever been found. Cause of death was throat was cut. I’snt the bike riding abduction similar to the Evansdale case.

        • Yes the bikeriding abduction would be exactly the same as the Evansdale case.

          The Evansdale girls may have been kept alive for some time too. Mr. X vanished the night the girls were taken in his motorhome. He was not seen for three weeks. His ex-wife thinks he took the motorhome off into some remote area somewhere and lived out there for a bit. She also thinks the girls were raped and killed in that motorhome. Sometime after the night he disappeared and when he appeared back in town three weeks later, the girls were dumped dead at the wildlife area 25 miles away. So that means he kept them alive for anywhere from 1-21 days. So he could have kept them alive for some time.

          It the Delphi case, it appears they were removed from the scene and taken to a structure somewhere and kept there for ~11 hours at least before being returned presumably dead to the site to be dumped. So they were kept alive a while too.

          Mysopeds or sadistic pedophiles and sadistic rapists often take their victims somewhere remote, often to a structure, where they keep them alive, sometimes for a while, so they can torment and torture them. They actually like to keep them alive so they can torment them awhile as this is what they get off on. I have seen cases where teenage boys were kept in closets for up to 10 days for instance.

          Amber’s killer and the Delphi killer both kept the girls alive for 12 hours – 2 days. The Evansdale killer may have kept the girls alive for up to three weeks.

          The fact that he lives to keep them alive for some time to mess with them is one more thing that may tie the cases together.

        • Mr. X had long blond hair and was 39 years old at time of Amber’s case. He’s of Norwegian descent and looks it. This suspect was at least 25 and could have been Hispanic. Hard to see how a blond-haired guy could be seen as Hispanic.

        • Mer

          So, are they any closer to nailing this guy?

      • See if you can upload that photo of him hiding in the woods as she is walking down the bridge. I would love to see that.

        • Shane D. Carender

          I would like to read your report on Mr. X, and will affirm in this message not to disclose, as you say you have already sent a copy to the authorities. I do not see your email listed on here, so am requesting the profile in this manner. If you could also send me a mailing address, I would be glad to send you a donation via M.O. Thanks.

        • Email is on the Contact page. And a donation would be sorely appreciated. Looks like this is going to be another bad month, though I did pay my bills last month thanks to you folks.

      • Bo

        Three days after she was snatched off her bicycle (in broad daylight) and thrown into a black pickup truck, she was found lying naked in a creek behind an apartment complex. Her throat had been cut. Very similar circumstances to this case, if you ask me.

        • Yes, snatches a young girl (8-10) off a bike in broad daylight, puts her in a vehicle, takes her somewhere and keeps her alive for some time, slits her throat, body dumps near water, and crimes occur on the 13th day of the month.

          Lots of commonalities there.

  9. Shannon sproson

    Was just reading up on this case and remembered that I heard that this case had similarities to another case in lowa the too little
    Cousins so I had a look and a read and in an artical it mentions something about a white
    SUV a little weird how it’s also “seen” in this photo and also maybe should look at the similarities in the kathlynn Shepard murder too in lowa luckily her friend escaped these girls need justice but some times people outside of the box see more things than the police do

  10. Dlux

    Here is a thought – has anyone ever considered Unsub was on the south end of the bridge when the girls were walking and actually passed them near the end of the bridge on the south end heading north only to turn around and start following them in a stalking manner which prompted Libby to take the video. I say this because the girls were so far ahead of Unsub if he started on the north end like them and this timing was always hard for me to comprehend. Had he started towards them trailing by some ~800 ft. they would have pretty much had to just hangout on the south end while Unsub took his time walking to them. Let me know what you think as this has been sticking with me for some time.

    • Lotus

      It looks like they were hanging out on the bridge, taking pictures and texting their friend. They might also have been afraid to get off the bridge and into the woods.

    • Mer

      That is possible, Dlux. Libby did send a text to a friend saying a man was following them. It’s likely he walked across the bridge in pursuit.

      • Kathy

        I have always thought that there was only one man. LE will know for sure from the tape, footprints or DNA.

      • Dlux

        After thinking more on this and aligning my theories with LE, I do think he probably started his trek across the bridge almost immediately after the pic of Abbie was taken. It was opportunistic as he probably knew the pic would take a while and let’s be honest, who knows a female that has only taken one pic and then published it and not 500 of them and then picked the best one?

        Also, my sources have said they believe more than one person was involved.

        Also, hearing that DNA results will be available this week. This could be a big week if all aligns the way they think it will.

        Has anyone else heard anything? Robert? Mer?

        • Mer

          I was at the barn and the cemetery this afternoon. Someone has left a wreath in the barn. I spoke to a Mears family member at the barn. He pulled up to see what I was doing there. Twice I mentioned that I thought the murders occurred there. Neither he nor his wife denied that.

        • Mer

          The Ron Logan farm has become a crime tourism destination. As I was leaving the barnyard to drive the 200 yards to the cemetery, I saw 2 cars that had stopped to take photos of the area.

        • Kathy

          I wasn’t sure where to post this guys, but has either of you seen a pic of the cemetery caretaker?? I didn’t think I should put his name on here.

        • Your sources who say that more than one man was involved, are these LE sources?

          Yes I have heard some more stuff, but wait a bit on that.

          Inside of barn.

          inside of barn.

          Side view of barn.

          Side view of barn.

          Flowers inside barn.

          Flowers inside barn.

          Barn from a distance. You can easily drive a car in there.

          Barn from a distance. You can easily drive a car in there.

          Inside of barn.

          Inside of barn.

          Hay bales inside barn.

          Hay bales inside barn.

        • Kathy

          Do your sources tell you that they do have a suspect in their sights?

        • Kathy

          Does anyone’s source say that if the DNA results are back this week that LE is ready to make an arrest?

      • Ricita

        Oh, my. Libby sent a text to her friend saying they were being followed?! How did you find this out? This is the first time I have heard of a specific text message. So, now we know, unequivocally, that Libby took that picture of him on purpose. And the recording….this keeps getting worse. What a smart girl.

        • Kim

          Article cited from another site about RSO’s and the meat-packing plant. May not be relevant to crime but paints a grittier picture of the Delphi area…

          Originally Posted by blighted star

          No, you read right the first time. The 54 are all linked to Delphi. Check the other “known addresses” on most of them & you’ll see “Indiana Packers Co-op” (or something like it) on over 40 out of the 54 – because the abattoir up the road from the high bridge seems to have a hiring program for RSO’s. They’ve got men designated “sexually violent offenders” working on their kill floor & it doesn’t seem to occur to them that in that particular field of employment, it’s not necessarily a good thing to hire people who might be enjoying their work. Holy crap!

          This excerpt is taken from:

          Killing for a Living: Psychological and Physiological Effects of Alienation of Food Production on Slaughterhouse Workers

          By Anna Dorovskikh University of Colorado at Boulder


          In Perpetration-Induced Traumatic Stress: The Psychological Consequences of Killing, the study by Rachel M. MacNair describes Perpetration-Induced Traumatic Stress as a from of post-traumatic stress disorder with symptoms of drug and alcohol abuse, panic, depression, paranoia, dissociation, anxiety, and depression stemming from the act of killing.

          One study found that slaughterhouse workers, especially those responsible for the direct delivery of the act of killing and participating in the process of slaughter on a daily basis, may be susceptible to PITS as form of PTSD (Dillard, 2008).

          One of the symptoms of PITS is having recurring dreams of violent acts, and there are several reports of workers being taken to the mental hospital for treatment of severe cases (Dillard, 2008). Certain jobs like having the responsibility to be the first to kill the animal may have stronger effects on the worker than other jobs. Oftentimes substance abuse of drugs such as methamphetamine (Schlosser, 2002) and alcohol is very common amongst slaughter employees as a coping mechanisms of the emotional toll (Dillard, 2008).

          A former hog-sticker (worker who stabs hogs to bleed to death) said, “A lot of the slaughterhouse hog killers have problems with alcohol. They have to drink, they have no other way of dealing with killing live, kicking animals all day long. If you stop and think about it, you’re killing several thousand beings a day” (Dillard, p. 397, 2008).

          Another employee explains that slaughter workers can’t care about animals they’re killing.

          “The worst thing, even worse than the physical danger, is the emotional toll of the job. If you work in that stick pit for any period of time, you develop an attitude that lets you kill things but doesn’t let you care. You may look a hog in the eye that’s walking around down in the blood pit with you, and think, God, that really isn’t a bad-looking animal. You may want to pet it. Pigs down on the kill floor have come up and nuzzled me like a puppy. Two minutes later I had to kill them by beating beat them to death with a pipe.

          Use of a pipe to kill hogs came up quite a few times reading through literature and general websites. Another employee interviewed said: “It’s called `piping.’ All the drivers use pipes to kill hogs that can’t go through the chutes. Or if you get a hog that refuses to go in the chutes and is stopping production, you beat him to death. Then push him off to the side and hang him up later” (Eisnitz, p. 53, 2009).

          Some employees even report killing animals for fun without feeling any remorse, suggesting that they are suffering psychological damage to the point of developing abnormal cruelty. Mental changes of this sort would generate concern amongst the general population (Dillard, 2008).

          Several studies on empathy amongst farmers in animal agriculture show that slaughterhouse workers and farmers exhibit lower levels of empathy towards animals than the general population. Desensitization was not an uncommon factor amongst the employees of this sector (Dillard, 2008).

          A study done on butchers working in the slaughterhouse and retail meatpacking business revealed that as butchers work in a negative environment almost every single day, they displayed the highest levels of somatization and anger hostility among the general occupation of butchery. Once factors like age and education were accounted for, this study of 82 male butchers found higher rates of work accidents, injuries, physical disorders, use of alcohol and drugs, as well as a higher employee turnover (Emhan et al. 2012).

          Usually fully aware of the kills that go on every single day, the workers either become very distressed and leave the job or they become numb and begin to display signs of apathy. Some even begin to enjoy the infliction of pain (Helle 2012). Some become less empathetic under conditions of stress as well. See this example:

          “This is kind of hard to talk about. You’re under all this stress, all this pressure. And it really sounds mean, but I’ve taken prods and stuck them in their (hogs’) eyes and held them there.” (Eisnitz, p. 53, 2009).

          Lower empathy in slaughterhouse workers may be responsible for higher crime rates in neighborhoods where such facilities are located including homicides carried out in a manner of animal slaughtering practices (Dillard, 2008). Amy Fitzgerald, a sociologist investigating the effects of slaughterhouses on communities tested a “Sinclair effect,” a theory Upton Sinclair proposed more than 100 years ago, noting that slaughterhouses had negative effects on workers and communities through increases in crime and unemployment rates.

      • Kathy

        I don’t really want to put a name out there, but has anyone here seen a pic of the cemetery caretaker??? I just did and wow!

        • Kim

          OMG… creepy guy/similarities. Thx for sharing the vid. If correct, it certainly qualifies as ‘in plain sight’.

          Seems LE should be able to figure this out. I just hope they do it soon…. these girls families likely had a very sad Easter.

        • Ricita

          I just watched the video. The resemblance between the cemetery caretaker and bridge guy is eerie. This throws me for a loop. I don’t know what to think anymore. What are everyone else’s thoughts on this video?

        • Sunflower

          Do you have a picture of the cemetery caretaker? I tried to locate this person on the Carroll County Indiana.org website but there is no such information under the Locate tab.

        • Sunflower

          Kathy, are you able to name the website that you found the cemetery caretaker’s name? I tried to locate this information under the Locate tab on the Carroll County government website. I looked up the location of the Mason Cemetery at Deer Creek, but can’t find any other information on this cemetery.

        • Dlux

          Does this peson have a murderous, sadistic, pedophilic background? The picture is vague and grainy at best and I have seen several people that could pass for Unsub. I thought he was cleared early on from LE? He was also part of the search team I believe.

        • Everybody, this man participated in the search. He was searched and questioned by LE very soon after the murders. He was even quoted in the papers saying that police had talked to him and taken his phone. They also asked for a DNA sample. He lives in some apartment complex in town because someone who knew him talked to him after he spoke to the police.

          Who says that he is the caretaker of the cemetery? I say prove it.

          This man is one of the 23 Registered Sex Offenders in Delphi, but he was questioned very early on.

          My perception was that he was cleared but apparently LE is stating that this man is a POI in the case.

          One extremely serious problem is that there is no way that that is his voice on the “down the hill” audio. But this problem is solved if Bridge Guy is Unsub A and Down the Hill Man is Unsub B, that is, if there were 2 men involved in this case.

          I know his name but I will not give it out. I will if you email mane promise me in the mail that you will not go public with it.

          I am starting to definitely think there was more than one killer. There were two at least I would say.

        • Ricita

          The video is very well done and very chilling but I understand what Dlux and Robert are saying, although it seems as though there are conflicting statements coming from LE in regards to this man. Also, let me predicate this by saying, I am not looking for an easy target for a murder suspect. For instance, I am not one of those internet sleuths that thought that RL or any of his family had anything to do with this horrible crime. Here’s my but…. So, this man led a search party? We all know how much Ed Kemper loved to hang out with the cops and I know there were other serial killers that did as well. Didn’t David Berkowitz like to stand around and watch the cops work or is that just folklore? And, more recently I read about a serial killer who liked to assist in the searches for his victims but for the life of me I can’t remember who it is right now. Stranger things have happened.

        • This man did not lead the search. He participated in it. Apparently he was cleared very early on, but it looks like they went back and changed their minds, and they recently said he is a POI in the case.

        • Dlux

          Folks seem to be jumping on this guy as the suspect, however I heard today that he had to leave town because he was being harassed non stop from locals, the media, and other visitors to delphi bc of this crime. Apparently he has been 100 percent cleared by LE.

          Another suspect that everyone seems to be pointing the fingers at would be the volunteer who discovered the bodies. I know nothing about this person and the source I spoke with today didn’t disclose name. Anyone know who this could be?

  11. Steve Mathis

    Robert, On the Amber Hagerman murder. There was a suspect named Bill N Fry. He would be 66 now. The guy took off work early that day and lived in Arlington near the crime and had a Black Truck. The guy moved to Arizona after the murder. In my research there was a flaky freelance reporter Joey Daubens who was all over him. Not sure if true but he reported that relatives said they saw bloody from underwear from a young girl in the the guys car, and the guy ended up burning them. Relatives said Fry also was continually vacuuming and washing his Black GMC truck. He was also questioned for a murder in Arizona later on. Some weird twists also to the story. Fry’s stepson got busted for running a child porn ring in AZ. Also the reporter Daubens got busted for statutorily raping a 14 year old boy at a church camp. He did some time for it. Don’t see any links of Fry to Iowa or Indiana, but some crazy stuff. Anything related to Mr X here.

    • Mr. X can now be placed in Texas during that time! He was married in Texas in 1986 and lived there until his divorce in 1997. So Mr. X was in Texas at the time of the Amber Hagerman killing! I can’t believe we can place him there.

      • Dlux

        What a monster. What an absolute monster. He can be placed in Dallas, Evansdale, and Delphi. Too coincidental. I hope technology and some quick thinking by Liberty does him in.

        • Well he can be placed in Texas in 1996, let’s put it that way. He married in El Paso in 1986 and divorced in Pfulgerville near Austin in 1997.

          How far is Austin from Dallas?

  12. Garry Palin

    What we know so far in the Delphi murder case:

    1) We know there were ( 2) killers- one Indiana trooper said we will hunt “them” down- he did not say “him” but rather “them”.

    2) an FBI spokesman said the picture of guy walking on the bridge
    “participated” in the killings. In order to “participate” you have to do that
    with someone else, in order to “participate.”

    I would think LE and the search party also found (2) sets of male footprints and are very certain there are 2 killers. There was a man all dressed in black seen in the area, and he’s likely the second man. If you think about it, this makes a lot of sense because there are (2) girls, and if they both ran in separate directions, one could easily escape. I don’t think these well prepared killers would allow for that risk. I think also there were 2 killers.

    IMPORTANT- Because it’s unanimously agreed upon that the killer(s) planned for this down to the last detail and were fully equipped with their killing kits- “they had to have known the girls would be there “for sure”

    I think the FBI really have to work this angle, and find out how the killers knew “for sure” the girls would be on that bridge at that time. The answer will lie in the girl’s social media accounts and tracking the IP addresses of people that sent them messages. Step 1- I’m sure there doing this, and it may take a long time. The killer could have “phony accounts” in girls names

    The only other way the killers would know the girls were going to be there, was they were tipped from someone the girls knew very well that live in the area, and what they were doing that day. There are lots of people that likely knew this. These people need to be checked, or the FBI need a really hot tip, on these killers.

    Another possible factor- was Abby pregnant ?? if she was, is it possible that someone didn’t want her having that baby–makes me wonder ???

    I’m also becoming a believer in Robert’s theory that the Evansdale, Iowa case and the Delphi case are done by the same killer(s) there are a lot of similarities.

    1) 2 girls at one time
    2) killings done in an isolated park-rural
    3) both dump sites had creeks or water
    4) both places had railway bridges
    5) both girls were very young ( not teen or adult )

    These killer(s) are rural type guys, and probably hunters who are very comfortable in the wilderness. They probably both ( or one) has a job like a truck driver and makes deliveries to small towns like Delphi, and probably have decent social skills to befriend and get the confidence of their customers who tell them of activities going on in the town.

    Because I believe the FBI have taken over this case, and have had something like 13,000 leads, I’m quite sure the killers are somewhere in all of those leads. I also believe they have DNA- as the bodies were also dragged thru thick bush, leaving hairs, scratches blood, etc. Based on this, I don’t believe the killer(s) DNA is on file, or they would have them, but I’m pretty sure they have a couple of really good suspects-” it’s now a waiting game” but they will eventually get these guys. Also, as I write this they could be watching several guys collecting DNA samples- cigarette buts etc.

    • Mer

      I think the police know if it was one guy or two–especially if there is 40 minutes of audio.

      I think the guy who said ‘participated’ in these killings was ISP or local LE early in a news conference.

      I don’t think the girls were specifically targeted. They were just in the wrong place.

      • Kathy

        Do you think that LE has been too quiet lately? Like maybe they know who it is? Just gathering evidence? I have not seen an update from them for some time. It just seems if they had no leads, we would be hearing more from them.

        • Good guess hun.

          See my latest post, Kathy.

          LE apparently has a pretty good idea of who it is. Right now they are just trying to prove it. They are trying to gather enough evidence against them to justify an arrest.

      • Garry Palin

        Mer- if it is (1) man, he sure is taking chances, and playing with fire !!!

      • See my latest post, Mer. LE thinks they know who did it. They are just trying to prove it now buy gathering enough evidence to justify an arrest. That was the reason for the large scaling back of the investigation.

        • Mer

          Do you think they suspect your POI? I talked to the Chief of Police about him for about 45 minutes.

        • Oh I have no idea. They don’t tell me anything. LE did tell me that he was a suspect though. Last I heard they wanted to talk to him. But I guess suspect just means anyone they go and talk to.

          I have no idea what has happened regarding the investigation of Mr. X. Sometimes when they clear people they tell me though. But I have not talked to them in a while. It is not that easy for me to talk to LE.

          What did the police chief say about Mr. X?

    • See my latest post.

      LE apparently have a pretty good idea of who did this, and they are just trying to build enough evidence against them to prove it.

      • Mer

        I’m encouraged by the news that they think they know who did it, and I think LE is handling this investigation right. I talked to the police chief for about 45 minutes. The supportive information I had, and the reason I went to LE is that shortly after the crime, a woman on FB said she recognized the guy and thought his name was _____. Your POI’s first name. I wanted to make sure they had your profile of the guy, and the info that he has potentially been identified by 2 different people as Unsub.

        The Chief said he was not aware your profile on your POI. He studied the guy’s photo from a link you sent me and compared it to Unsub. I forwarded your 16 page report to him,and went over some of the details linking him to the Evansdale crime and to the Delphi area.

        I also want to say that it very clearly says in your update that LE believes the SE end of the bridge was accessed from a trailhead that leads to a little known trail or dirt road along the south bank of Deer Creek. I have missed that info in your updates. I have always assumed that he or they accessed the bridge from the private drive. That is not correct.

        • Kathy

          I have never believed that RL had anything to do with these murders. But do you or Robert believe that LE thinks that RL knows something (he might not even realize what he knows) or knows who might have been involved? Also I heard and I don’t remember where that the killer(s) left some writing on walls for the police?

        • Mer

          Robert heard a rumor that LE has found the crime scene and there was an initial written there.

        • The murder scene may be on his property. Also he lied to police and said he was in Logansport buying tropical fish when instead he was at the dump. LE is not real happy that he lied to them.

        • The rumor I heard was directly from LE, and I can prove it. This LE guy said that a single initial was written all over the murder scene. They thought that might be his calling card or some sort of way or marking the scene and saying it’s him.

        • It’s a good rumor. It’s from LE, and I have the screenshot to prove it actually.

        • Mer

          Ron Logan was at the dump in Carroll County at 11:38 am. I assume there is evidence of a transaction at that time.

          He stated that he was in Lafayette buying tropical fish and got home around 6:30. He gave permission for a search behind his property. He likely would have checked on his horses that evening.

          I’ve been to his farm and knocked on the front and back doors. He has 4 outbuildings. He has a detached 2 car garage. He has a chicken coup about 50 feet from the corner of his house. I should have grabbed some eggs. He has a white medium sized barn that his horses would have access to. It is also about 50 feet from his house. That barn is old, but in good shape. Across the road is a weathered barn, a little larger than the one behind his house. This barn seems to contain the junk that tends to collect on a farm over 100 years. It looked like it was full of old farm equipment and other junk. I could only see the opening to the barn, and the opening was about the size of a 2 car garage door opening.

          I don’t think Ron Logan was the man photographed by Libby. It’s not him. The man in the photo is around 35 to 50 and about 180 pounds. Ron Logan is 77 and looks like he weighs over 225. My guess is that Logan was at a tavern in Lafayette that afternoon. If he has lied to LE it was to avoid telling them that he was drinking.

          I don’t know how many places have been searched by LE. It could be a lot, but they have searched his place at least twice.

          LE says that the girls were found by Deer Creek. I assumed that they were taken to the cemetery and dragged down a ravine to that spot. I tried walking that ravine and I couldn’t. There was deadfall in the ravine at a few places. I don’t think it would be possible to drag 2 girls through this ravine. I assumed that there must be a trail down to the riverbank from Ron Logan’s property. I couldn’t see any definite trail from RL’s backyard.

          The other possibility is that the investigation has not told us the correct location of the bodies.

        • Mer

          There is a trail leading from Ron Logan’s farm to the site where the girls’ bodies were left. I have just seen a photo of RL showing someone the site.

        • Ahhhh! He dragged them down the trail! We solved the mystery of how the bodies got to where they were! Thanks so much Detective Merrill. Beyond Highbrow is on the ground! With investigators right at the scene running down leads!


        • Lotus

          Mer, are you the one that made those Youtube videos snooping around the bridge and grounds?

        • Mer

          No. I’ve never posted anything on youtube. I do have some video of deer creek from the bridge. There is a lot of good stuff on youtube about the crime. And some real crap, too.

          They were abducted the afternoon from the SE end of the bridge. There may be a car and human seen near the creek in the screenshot of Abigail on the bridge. That would be the second suspect.

          They were subdued and put in a vehicle–I think the trunk of the car in the photo.

          They were taken to an old barn across the road from Ron Logan’s house.

          The killers drove their bodies to the nearby cemetery. It has a gate leading to RL’s horse pasture. They drove along the treeline to a trail that leads down behind Logan’s pasture to Deer Creek. They placed the bodies close to the creek, and only 100 yards from where they were abducted.

        • Lotus

          Is there a factual basis forwhat you have written? If so, what is it?

        • Mer

          No, but I think it is an accurate account of what happened.

        • Lotus

          I find it interesting and appreciate reading your ideas. My thoughts are different. I think there was one killer and that no vehicle was used. I also don’t think the girls were taken into any building. I also don’t think the girls were moved around or taken and replaced. I think they were taken to the edge, killed, and left. The killer then left the area, while it was still early afternoon, I think.
          I never saw where anyone said the area where the bodies were found was searched the night before. I saw where people said they had to wait for the owner’s permission to search his land and by then, it was dark out.

          There was talk about “initials.” To me, that sounds like tagging, and my guess is it could have been on rocks or other surfaces, likely done by teens who used the area to hang out. My guess is initials are unrelated to the killing.

          Of course, I could be wrong on all this. I tend to go with the most likely, simplest scenario.

        • Mer


          How did they get across the creek?

        • Kathy

          Is it possible that LE really believes it was RL? It appears either they have someone in custody or surveillance because they don’t seem to be worried about a killer or killers on the loose? And they have searched his property and know he’s in jail?

        • Lotus

          Kathy, I think it is not possible the police think RL is the killer. They have said he is not. They have also gone into court with evidence he went to the dump that morning and then went out elsewhere and did not return till around 6:30 pm. He has been sentenced to 2 years in prison because of this probation violation because he was not supposed to be driving. To me, this seems like way too much and as if he is bearing the brunt of this murder taking place on his property.

        • Lotus

          Mer asked:
          “How did they get across the creek?”
          I think they walked where the killer directed them to walk, either willingly or unwillingly. I think the killer is a serial killer who takes pride in being able to trick his victims and order his victims about. That would be half the “fun” for him. I do not for a second believe this is not a well-established serial killer.

        • Dlux

          My sources have confirmed several things and the following are a few we have been debating:
          1. The girls were removed from the park
          2. There was an outbuilding used to torture/kill
          3. LE is certain who killed these girls, currently building the case against them
          4. There were markings at the crime scene, they appeared to be initials
          5. Ron Logan is not a suspect and was never considered a suspect. In fact, IMO the media and every junior sleuth jumped on RL as a suspect. Everyone was positive it was him. For example, Ron Logan wore blue jeans in an interview, so did Unsub in the photo. Ron Logan had horses, the killers voice was hoarse on the recording. It was painfully obvious he had nothing to do with these crimes other than unfortunately having the bodies ‘dumped’ on his land. Think about this, the person who did this commited a cold, calculated, heinous crime and did it leaving very little evidence behind with no witnesses in broad daylight – why would he then dump the bodies on his own land, which was being heavily searched?There is no explanation to this whatsoever, it was just the easiest path to solving a heartbreaking case.

        • Lotus

          DLux, Well of course the girls were “removed” from the park. They were in the park and they were found on adjacent private property. There is no debate about that.

        • Dlux

          Lotus, I should have phrased point 1 differently. The girls were abducted from the park, taken to a kill site (outbuilding/barn), and dumped on RL’s ground. Thanks for catching.

        • Told you they were removed from the abduction site, Lotus and not moved to the dump site. Abducted at bridge, taken a structure, rape/murder/attempted murder there, and then taken back to the dump site and dumped there. And I know what that structure is too. I can tell you about it and I can even show you a photo of it.

        • Diux, one killer or two from your source?

        • Dlux

          1 killer and 1 handler/driver. Almost like a teacher and a student.

          Robert, can you share the pic of the kill building?

        • Mer

          They could not have walked or waded across the creek. Take the time to look at some of the interviews RL did after the crime. In one of them he is talking to a reporter at the site the girls’ bodies were placed. The creek can be seen. It’s 30 feet across and deep. It has a strong current. Why would he bother to move them if he was going to kill them quickly?

          These girls went through hell. They were taken to an old barn across the road from RL’s property.

        • Dlux

          Agreed and confirmed by LE.

          Mer, can you confirm the barn across from RL’s was the kill site?

        • Mer


          I can’t confirm anything.

          I know the barn has been searched at least twice. The second(?) time they used dogs.

          The barn is conveniently located to the site where Abby and Libby’s bodies were found. It’s about a 5 mile drive from the abduction by county roads.

          The barn looks deserted. The farm house is gone–it probably burned down years ago.

        • Dlux

          Thanks Robert. Ok, so your sources have confirmed this is the property? That being said, it wouldn’t have to be the barn as there is a silo and a chicken house on the property too (or what seems to be a chicken house, dairy barn, hog barn, etc). But, I think that is irrelevant.

          Mer, I agree the proximity to the cemetery is very convenient and I would imagine most of the search party probably parked across the street, making it easy for the killers to see when they finished up for the night.

          Robert, have you been privy to any additional info lately? It’s been awhile since the latest update.

        • No it has not been confirmed that the barn is the crime scene. Merrill and I are just guessing at that.

          Not much new info that you have not heard before. Just laziness about new updates. I need to update my POI report for LE too, but I have been too lazy for that too.

        • Dlux

          Robert, can you tell us about your updates re: Mr. X. Other than his ties to TX – anything else new?

        • Sure, ex wife says he is really mean.

          Worked for a company in Iowa that delivered items by truck to Indiana regularly. This was his latest job. He was in the Delphi area a lot but he did not deliver there. But a furniture store is the closest business nearby and that is what he delivered. He did deliver to Logansport and the hotel guy thought he remembered him as the truckers stay at their hotel.

          Had the day off work on 2-13, but had to be back at some certain time on 2-14 for a pool tournament in the town in Iowa where he lives. He plays pool. We did not know when the tournament started though. If a Mustang is involved in the crime, he may own a Mustang.

          Likes teenage girls in addition to little girls 6-10. He is registered on some Teen Chat sites.

          In Evansdale, he abducted two girls at once in broad daylight in a popular park with people around on a weekday on the 13th. He took the girls to a structure and kept them there for an unknown length of time where he raped, tortured and murdered them. He then returned at some time after the crime and dumped the bodies near rivers with bridges around.

          So abducting them and then taking them to some isolated structure where he uses them and kills them and takes them away from there to body dump elsewhere is exactly his MO in Evansdale as well as Delpi.

        • Robert, can you tell us about your updates re: Mr. X. Other than his ties to TX – anything else new?

          Well I now believe that the “fanny pack” is not a fanny pack at all as LE stated. In fact, it is “deer kit” which looks remarkably similar but different in a few small ways. The pack is too flat to be a fanny pack, so it must be a deer kit. So now I believe Mr. X is a hunter. A deer kit is for skinning your deer and cutting it up after you kill it. It has knives, scissors, etc. Think about that and how it makes this case even more creepy and awful.

          I now believe that Mr. X is the killer of Amber Hagerman in Dallas, Texas in 1996. I can’t quite prove it yet, but I still think he is. There are some other things I need to confirm to make a more firm case because as of now, the case against him is rather weak regardless of my own views, which are simply my opinion as an intuitive hunch sort of thing.

        • Dlux

          So we need to do a hunting license lookup in the the state of Iowa for Mr. X.

          Good info Robert. Thank you.

    • Kim

      Seems incredible that the perps, girls, vehicle could have been in RLs outbuilding after 6:30 with RL home and searchers around property calling out? But not having seen the site as you folks I defer to your observations. Good cases made for 2 perps and they had to know the area well.

      If LE has an inkling who these animals were it sure would great if they were locked up right now. It’s additionally tragic they are roaming free while the Delphi victim’s families mourn and have a crushing holiday weekend….

      • Mer

        I don’t know if the barn was involved. Only LE knows that.

        I will be so happy when they arrest and convict this garbage.

        • Kim

          Oh, I see, it’s not RL’s barn. Certainly possible then,

        • Dlux

          I know they searched that barn and a few others multiple times. Consequently, I have head from sources that this barn is now sealed up, which leads me to believe this could be the site.

        • Mer

          I believe RL owns the barn, Kim.

        • Mer

          I just looked at satellite imagery of the barn area. I recommend going to trulia and selecting a house for sale nearby. Then look at a satellite map of the house and move the map to the Logan place.

          The barn is about 60×60 feet. I’ve seen it from the road and guess it was built before 1900. Behind it there is a silo and a smaller rectangular structure that I would guess was a small dairy building. Between the main barn and the rectangular structure is an area about 10 feet wide.

          Someone could pull a car in between the barn and the silo/dairy building and be invisible to anyone driving by.

        • Kim

          Ok, this smells like a current or recently local perp(s) who either lived in or closely to that park.After watching the video of crossing that bridge I cannot imagine anyone doing that in a pursuit who hadn’t either done it a few times before or closely observed others crossing. Also, the perp(s) clearly had great familiarity with the park and may have checked the local online school schedule and noted it as a day young people might be on the trails.

          Now I completely understand Abby’s mother’s statement that the community must stick together and why she may never be able to speak of this. I’ve always found Hoosiers to be among the kindest people in the country so this is especially heartbreaking. I will keep reading on this but won’t comment as much as I have little to add except that I will be praying for strength for LE in making arrests and bringing these monster(s) to justice.

          I think the conversation on this is important because for most of us, there can be no peace without justice. Peace to you all trying to help …..

        • Dlux

          The barn is not owned by RL – it is owned by mears holding company. Which owns several plots of land around the crime area.

          I would suggest everyone use the Carroll County gis map. Google “Beacon Schneider Carroll County”. Search for Ronald Logan, click on any of his 4 properties and then go to the map view. You can get a great sense of the area from this tool.

        • Kim

          From Reddit today – listener to a live RSS feed on night of crime:

          “I stumbled across this live feed after the girls were found but not identified yet. It was a person saying they were there when the girls were attacked. He said he didn’t do anything to stop it because he was a kid too and was afraid the same thing would happen to him. He was not from Delphi, the killer had picked him up and they drove at least an hour before arriving at a huge farm. He did not know where he was but said he needed to get out of there because the bodies were found and the place was going to be crawling with cops. He said the person who did this would never be caught because no one would think he was capable but HE IS, said the guy would be hiding in plain sight. I have not been able to find the thread again, it has been deleted. I contacted the investigators and FBI early on and told them what I found, no one has contacted me or ever brought it up again. What do you think? Hoax? Maybe the kid ended up missing too? Any one else heard anything like this?”

        • Mer


          Thank you for the correct info..
          Your posts are fascinating. You must have a good resource in LE.
          The nonresident ownership makes it even likelier that the barn was used.

          Go back to the site you directed us to, and you can see how convenient the barn is to the cemetery. I think the killers used a gate in the SE corner of the cemetery to access the dump site

        • Harper

          Mears Holding Company: Trustee Melinda Mears:

          Former owner of property appears to be Shelly Mears (a man) who died in 2016:

          John Mears, son of Shelly, owns an insurance Co in Delphi,

        • Lotus

          Kim, holey moley. Reddit gets a lot of jokers, but this may be real.

        • Kim

          Rest of the ‘In Plain Sight’ comment from person on Reddit overhearing discussion on RSS feed. If true, and LE located this boy it would crack the case:

          “It was about the same time they had found the bodies but hadn’t identified them yet. I live in Las Vegas and didn’t know much about the case so when I stumbled across this feed, I didn’t really know what I was looking at. My original search was for Liberty Tax service. The person had been talking to a woman and a man in this feed. He was talking about the girls and how the guy had attacked them. Someone asked him,”why didn’t you do something?” He said,”because I’m just a kid too, I was afraid the same thing would happen to me.” Then it was mentioned that the bodies were found and the kid says,”I gotta get out of here, this place is going to be crawling with cops.” One of the others asked where he was and he didn’t know. He said he had just met the guy and they drove for about an hour before they arrived at his location, which was some kind of farm. He wouldn’t give info on the guys name or his own. Honestly, he seemed like he was impressed by the way the guy controlled the two girls. Like he said something like, that guy was awesome. I wish I had paid more attention but like I said, I was unaware of it’s importance until later and when I tried to find the feed, it was gone. The only other thing the kid said that stands out clearly is that he hadn’t been home in a couple of days and wondered if anyone was looking for him. He figured the guy had used him to gain the girls trust(because he is a kid) and he said,”they’re never going to catch this guy, no one would even think he was capable/able to do what he did, but HE IS. He will be hiding in plain site.”
          I did talk to the FBI and reported it early on. within two weeks of the murder. It took me a minute to decide if it was worth reporting, like you, I don’t know if this was a hoax. I gave them the info and figure they would decide.”

        • Lotus

          I think the police and courts did a terrible disservice to the Delphi case when they prosecuted RL so heavily for such minor offenses. I think this will cause others who may be tangentially involved from speaking up or getting involved. In the words of this boy or girl who supposedly posted on an RSS feed, this young person was more afraid of getting in trouble with the police than with anything. The police foster that fear. The boy/girl is right. If he/she came forth, the police would be looking to charge him/her with murder or accessory. They proved their efforts are tainted with vindictiveness when they went after RL, who has now been sentenced to 2 years in prison. That’s a sad mess and one caused by law enforcement and their lack of putting things in perspective for the greater good.

        • Dlux

          I agree RL got the short end of the stick, however I think the biggest problem was the local/national media and the internet frenzy his arrest created. Remember, everyone was 100% positive RL was the man and he did it and no one else could have…blah, blah, blah. In fact, after his trial the headlines read, “Delphi Property Owner admits to visiting dump on day of murders”. Ok, is this misleading? He did go to the dump – at 11:00 am – hours before the abductions. And guess what, if he did go to the dump, who cares, the girls and their clothes were found with the bodies. Anyway, I think this severely hurt him.

          As far as local LE is concerned, yeah, he definitely probably got more than he earned, but he did lie to the police upon first questioning as he knew he was in violation of his probation. Had he been up front, the punishment would have been much less harsh. Small, local police and sheriff’s departments are generally not considered corrupt or coercive in their ways. This falls on the shoulders of large, poorly ran cities (i.e. Chicago) and Federal LE, in my opinion. Remember, local LE never stated RL as a suspect, this was placed upon him by every other source.

          Overall, I kinda feel sorry for RL as his life is effectively ruined as some less informed, less critical thinking people will never really believe he is innocent because they believe everything they read and hear from the media to be truth.

  13. Garry Palin

    Also the police will know “for sure” if 1 or 2 men- just by footprints, so they know the score.

    • Kim

      Mer, Robert, & Lotus (above) great job sleuthing this out. Especially the on-site efforts! I just made donation as thank-you :-).

      Not sure I’m convinced yet it’s 2 people, seems police requests have been to identify the single suspect. Like so many others, I remain very troubled that LE hasn’t made an arrest yet. But thanks for presenting the clearest picture yet of what likely happened to these brave girls. Best, 🙂

  14. Steve Mathis

    Robert, does Mr X have a link to Ft Wayne, IN. Maybe he was driving his truck there in his early forming days of being a serial killer. Check out the April Tinsley case in 1988. Killed a 9 year old. But this guy is a sicko. He went back and left notes 4 times. 3 times he put a note in a back with a condom with his semen in it to prove it was him. MO is different, he did sexually assault the girl but he suffocated her. Here’s the possible relation, when he left the notes he left them on little girls bikes and said he’s going to kill again. Unfortunately, I don’t see a 13th link, but the girls bike thing could be a link.
    Heres a composite of the guy. He looks like a young Norwegian in 1988.


    • He left Texas in 1997. After that he probably went to Iowa or Tennessee. He served in the Gulf War in 2001 and was injured during the war and discharged out. And he is of Norwegian descent, correct. His hair is white now, but it was blond when he was younger. Rather handsome and charming looking fellow with a devilish way about him. He has a lot comments from adoring females, attractive young women, on his Facebook photos.

    • This really seems like the wrong MO.

      Was Amber Hagerman raped or molested? Does anyone know?

      • Ricita

        Given Amber’s parents’ dedication to keeping sexual predators off the street, it appears as though she was.

      • Stevr Mathis

        From what i researched, they think the killer kept her (Amber)alive for two days and molested her multiple times. They found her in a drainage ditch 5 days after abduction, but could tell she was dead for 3 days

  15. Ferbie

    Amber Hagerman was abducted on January 13, 1996. Was held for some days and sexually assaulted. She was kidnapped on a Saturday of a holiday Martin Luther King.

  16. Ferbie

    Forget to add, but everyone probably knows. Amber was riding her bike and her throat was cut.

  17. Lotus

    Here is that whole Reddit thread:

    • Mer

      This is interesting, Lotus. Could Robert’s POI have picked up a kid along the way to assist him? If he did it was prearranged and the kid had some idea what he was getting in to.

      Why move the girls to the creekside? Does a serial killer have a compulsion to stage a crime like his others? Why not leave them in the structure?

      I have always assumed that the killer(s) would have attempted to clean the crime scene, but it was probably so bloody…..

      • Lotus

        The implication we see in the retelling of what was said in the RSS thread — if it was even real and not a hoax by a Redditor, is that the “kid” (I assume it was a boy, but could be a girl) did not know that man that picked him up and drove him an hour to the girls.

        Under what circumstances might an adult male pick up a kid he does not know? If the kid was hitchhiking or waiting for a bus and the man offered a ride. If the kid was offering himself as a prostitute. If the kid was offering himself as a worker, such as is done outside Home Depot. If the kid was supposed to be in school and the man posed himself as a police officer.

        AND Maybe there is some place in Indiana where farmers pick up day workers and take them to do a day job — just the same way workers outside Home Depot will climb into a vehicle with a stranger on the promise of doing day work and being paid. According to the second (or third) hand account, the kid said he was taken to a large farm. Since there would be no crops in February, maybe he was told he would be clearing brush or helping with some other chores.

        Reasons he might not go to police include if he is an illegal immigrant or if his parents are, if he was truant from school, if he was prostituting himself, if he used drugs, if he assisted in killing the girls, even if against his will, if he fears being killed himself, if he was paid, if he was threatened. Or all of the above.

        We don’t even know for sure if this kid exists.

        We in the public do not know where these girls were killed, the method of killing them, or if they were moved after they were killed. Very most likely, the police know all this. The girls could have been killed where they were found and their killing could have involved no bloodletting.

        If the girls were killed in a barn or building, one big reason for moving them is if the killer is associated with the barn or building. Then dumping the bodies in the neighbor’s yard casts the blame onto the neighbor, which worked.

        • Mer

          The ‘large farm’ description fits the deserted barn owned by Mears Holding.
          It’s a large barn with hundreds of acres behind it. There is an agriculture business called The Anderson’s behind it as well. That business has huge grain storage and barn like structures. Looking at it, one would think they are on a huge farm.

  18. Steve Mathis

    Robert, Im still going with the serial killer with abductions occurring on the 13th of the month theory. I have another potential crime that somewhat fits our pattern. This one is more of a reach and Ill explain, but please cross reference with what you know about MR X on this case.

    The case is the Jillian Dee Cutshall abduction the occurred on February 13, 1987 in Norfolk, NE. She was a 9 year old that was abducted walking to her babysitter early in the morning. She was never found. Her clothes were found 3 months later at a Wildlife Refuge with water. Body was not found, so we don’t know source of death.

    So similarities are age of girl, abduction on the 13th, and lets assume her body probably was dumped in the water and never found, as her clothes were found at a bird sanctuary with water. Note the clothes thing sounds similar to our Delphi case. Note Norfolk, NE is close to Iowa where Mr X has connections. This could have been one of his earlier homicides. Maybe even fits the 5 year pattern Robert mentioned.

    Here’s where my case falls apart as they do have a strong suspect for the killer, but he’s never been convicted of the murder. But he is doing time in a Nebraska penitentiary for kidnapping the girl. Here’s the weird twist. A guy named David C Phelps, who admitted to molesting children was in some weird way was coerced by a private investigator into admitting that he and another guy kidnapped the girl. He late totally recanted this story and said he was illegally coerced by the PI. In his confession, he said he left the girl with the other guy “a convicted pedophile named “Kermit Baumgardner” and never saw the girl again. Baumgardner said Phelps was lying and had an alibi. Police never found anything forensically linking Phelps to the crime, but a jury convicted him to a life sentence in 92 for the kidnapping. So Phelps could not have killed the Evansdale girls or the Delphi girls. Note Phelps moved to Perry, IA right after the abduction. Iowa connection here.

    Maybe they got the wrong guy, and this could be our bad guy. Just Sleuthing and throwing ideas out there.

    • Lotus

      Years ago, I read a study that said there are about 125 serial killers active in the U.S. at any given time. A more recent study that is only puts that number at 25-50. The same study attributes about 150 killings per year in the U.S. to serial killers. If those 150 killings are occurring evenly over the days of the month, and if we say there are 30 days in a months, then there would be 5 serial killings per year that take place on the 13th of the month. 1987 is 30 years ago, so theoretically, there would have been 150 serial murders taking place on the 13th in that time frame.

      • Lotus

        error – where I wrote “only” I meant “online.” Sorry.

      • Steve Mathis

        I agree that this is a reach on the Jillian Cutsall case. You make a logical point on the statistical probability that there potentially have been 150 killings occurring on the 13th of any month in the last 30 years. Lets look a the demographic of the cases i’m comparing. The consistency is that they are young girls from age of 8 to 14. The demographic most selected by serial killers would be older woman and profession is most likely prosititute. Also note that serial killers attack a lot of men. Attacking young girls would be a much lower percentage of these killings. So Im going to estimate 5% of these serial killer victms are in are age demographic of 8 to 14 years old. So lets multiply 5% by your 150 estimated killings that happened on the 13th. So then your looking at 8 victims. Im just approaching this with an investigative perspective developing some hypothesis. Most hypothesis are wrong, but investigators still look at these ideas.

    • Mr. X was residing in Texas at the time or at least I think so. He married in Texas in 1986.

      How far is Norfolk, Nebraska from Austin, Texas?

  19. Steve Mathis

    Also, another hypotheses is that they might have gotten the wrong guy in Phelps in the Cutshall case. A private investigator coerced the confession after firing a gun in the air. Phelps never confessed to the police and never had any forensic evidence linked to him.

    • They have the wrong guy.

      Confession illegally coerced to a private party.

      Never confessed to LE.

      Subsequently recants

      Fingers another man who has an airtight alibi that day.

      No physical evidence connecting him to the case.

      Recanting is quite uncommon and often associated with innocence. Guilty people usually do not confess and recant. They never confess in the first place.

      Screw this.

  20. Pauly James

    Does anyone know more about the double homicide in Delphi that happened in early/mid 1990’s? I am curious to learn more about this event but am unable to yield any results from a Google search; I keep getting hits for Abby & Libby instead of the case from the 1990’s. Does anyone know how to dig into this?

  21. Cathy gartner

    Robert. I looked at the picture of Abby on the bridge, and I enlarged the picture and saw a man in a blue jacket standing by a tree behind her on her left side. He was watching her, and he has his hands in his pockets. He has a hat on, and you can see can see him watching her from behind the tree.

    • Kim

      Cathy G., that was actually the first apparition noticed when I studied that pic, however, without a any data on the geometry of the landmarks at that site (I.e. the diameter of the tree he seems to be leaning on etc) I am not willing to say that I can make out any of the items others also see (car(s) etc.).

      However, I am certain that the FBI possessed the best technology to triangulate and size the objects in the various fields of the picture. That is part of what is so frustrating about this case; they are mum, yet no arrest has been made. Kudos to Mer, Dlux, Robert & Lotus for putting in the ground work to present a very plausible (and most likely) picture of what happened to those brave girls. I just wish LE would make the arrest soon…

  22. CONNIE

    Do you think the hitchhiker was the original target, but the suspect saw the girls get dropped off on the way to the farm. The suspect had a backpack, deer kit, and a large plastic bag hanging off his backside. Why didn’t the stuff in the bag fit into the backpack? What items do you think he took from the victims? Do you have any thoughts? Did he suffocate them too.
    I have read several sites. Have you read ITC SPIRIT COMMUNICATION DREAMS and PARANORMAL on the Delphi murders.

    • How do we know that Bridge Guy has a backpack and a plastic bag?

      I have some very bad theories about what he took from them. I think maybe he took parts of their bodies! I got that idea from some of my fellow sleuths, but I suspect they might be right.

  23. Sunflower

    Not sure if the video posted for Delphi, IN is the suspect. At the 22-25 second mark on the video, there is a brown sack or pouch on the washing machine, similar to what the man on the bridge is wearing. He wears a more military-based style haircut. The later photos appear to have been taken in a spacious SUV style vehicle. He looks menacing like most serial killers. He drinks tons of beer.

  24. Ang

    Poor Libby and Abby. I hope people will keep them in their thoughts. It’s just horrible they died no matter how it happened. I hope it was over quickly and that their last moments of suffering weren’t long.

    Look at photos of our Milky Way galaxy and expand out from there . How can a killer take their lives?We are so lucky to get here and life is amazing. I hope this person will have some remorse and give himself up.

    • Kim

      Agree with you Ang but sadly some as long as there are folks who are willing to kill young people’s dreams we won’t make it far into that expanse. Once there is justice on this (small in the scope of universe but huge in relation to these girls families) matter we can once again look outward and strive for peace.

  25. Cathie

    Robert, please have a look at 2 u tubes by ” Eugene Delphi”, there is part 1 and part 2. T!A.

    • Kim

      Here’s the link to the YouTube part 2. Also, check the comments by Eugene who posted the vid, they are quite compelling.

    • Kim

      Mer…. you live around Delphi. Do you know the man pictured in Eugene’s video??
      He’s apparently the searcher who found the bodies. He later (~3/14) changed his story stating he touched the bodies (previously stated he didn’t) after reported positive match on his DNA. The video voice and pic matches are compelling. After he was ID’d Eugene says the FBI packed it up and left.

      Maybe FBI was so disgusted that the local LE wouldn’t pick up/arrest this guy and get this guy to talk?

      • Mer

        I don’t live around Delphi. I live over 2 hours south in Terre Haute. I grew up in Logansport, about 20 miles from Delphi. I don’t think I know anyone who lives in Delphi. Delphi is a nice, historic town. It has lots of victorian homes, has remnants of the Wabash-Erie Canal, is near the site of the Battle of Tippecanoe. It’s a very peasant little town. I don’t recognize this guy, but I agree he resembles the man in the photo.

        • Mer

          Whoever did this would not have been in the search the night of the abduction. He could have been in the search the next day..

          I meant to say pleasant, not peasant

        • Kim

          Oh, thx, most of the news stories on the day bodies found do indicate a lone individual found them. Using words like “one of hundreds of volunteers” and an individual searching independently…. The comments by the YouTube poster Eugene L certainly seem convincing on the DNA evidence. Lets hope that fellow is correct and an arrest is made soon!

  26. Mer

    The search for the girls began on 2-13 around 5pm and lasted until 2:30am on 2-14. I believe that because Libby had posted photos and video on snapchat, LE knew it was more than just a missing person. I believe they identified a crime scene south of the creek very quickly.

    The search of Ron Logan’s woods began after 6:30pm on 2-13. The searchers are described as neighbors who asked his permission. His woods are about 10 acres, behind his horse pasture. The woods contain trails which are connected to the NW end of the bridge. I think 2 or 3 people could search those 10 acres of woods thoroughly in about an hour.

    The girls bodies were found the next morning by a single individual who was searching the area. He notified LE.

  27. Kim

    Thanks Mer, I wish this was over so we could all stop thinking about this…The YouTube I shared with the almost perfect voice match (in my opinion) features a person who apparently owns 2acres (greenhouse and perhaps other property) very close by. His name is on the YouTube page, initials IB.

    • Mer

      Kim, I think the youtube video is astounding. Many people seem to think it is a fake.

    • Is this the guy who discovered the bodies?

    • Ivan Brumbaugh. Do you have an age for him? Some are saying mid-70’s.

      • Kim

        ~63yo, divorced with young girlfriend.
        A Delphi resident posting on another site about him, states he is LE’s prime suspect and they are waiting on final DNA:

        “Yes, he had 2 charges against him and if memory serves me correctly it was in 1989. i keep getting the date wrong ,but some can correct me if i am wrong.. there were 2 child molestation charges, he does not have to register, because it was before it became law so he is a SO. Yes he was in the search party that found the girls.. something else of interest i came across was Missing: Lauren Stratton Dec 14, 2016… and Emily Stratton Dec 14, 2016 from Atlanta, Indiana. i do not think they have been found yet i can’t find much info about them”

      • Dlux

        This gentleman is in his late 70’s and I find it hard to believe he could pull this off physically. He is also a community leader without a prior record. I visited delphi this week and made some eye opening discoveries regarding the trail. I think seeing the area in person really ties all of this together, at least it did for me. Mer, would you agree?

        I am trying to formulate my thoughts on my theories without being slanderous to anyone. More to come later…

      • Mer

        I know Ivan Brumbaugh. I’ve been to his restaurant many times. To me he seemed cloying and effeminate. However, he was, I think, fascinated by my girlfriend who was 25 and beautiful. He seemed very friendly, but not entirely genuine. I would guess him to be around 70, but can believe Kim’s 63.

        He is not physically imposing at all.

        About 5 years ago, his restaurant, Main Street Wine and Cheese, was temporarily closed for not paying city taxes. It’s in Lafayette, IN, on Main St. My GF and I were worried it would not reopen. It is a tapas style place.
        It wasn’t our favorite place to go, by any measure, but we would go there every few months for a change.

        He always struck me as a strange character.

        • Mer

          I remember he had saved a bottle of wine for my GF, and I thought he was giving it to her as a present, but charged me $40 on the bill.

        • Dlux

          He is dainty, not very manly. Doesn’t seem to fit the mold. I heard he has a very good alibi.

  28. Kim

    If it’s really the subjects voice it’s a ringer. It’s extremely difficult to mimic or change the vibrational frequency and cadence of one’s voice. Was listening a PBS show awhile back with individuals discussing getting their vocal cords shaved etc. as the only way to effectively change one’s voice/pitch. And the cadence (drawl we hear) is controlled by breath/oral musculature. It’s all hard to change/fake.

    I had classical voice and lots of instrumental training and used to have a pretty good ear; I’d put some money on that being the same voice, whosever’s it is. (it also sounded like a smoker to me when I first heard recording wks ago). I’m skeptical someone would put up a hoax like that but understand some folks may feel so. People in town must certainly know if it’s his voice.

    After seeing your and the Bridgewimp video of that bridge I am certain the perp grew up around that bridge (seems that proposed subject did).

    No one who had not crossed that bridge many times would have the nerve to chase two girls across it.

    I can’t figure it out. Either the fellow who turned him in is wrong or, if he’s correct, the individual has an alibi that LE hasn’t been able to shake yet.

    Remember the police did recently say they were trying to recheck /break down alibis? I hope this gets solved soon so kids will be safe in Delphi….

    • You are stuck in the spam filter, Kim, and I cannot figure out how to get you out of it. Keep posting away. They will show up at some point. So you know you are not banned.

    • Mer

      I agree, it sounds like him and looks like him.

    • Mer

      I’ve spoken to Ivan at least 10 times, and the voice on the video sounds like his

      • Jenny

        Ivan’s girlfriend has 2 young daughters that look to be under the age of 10. If he’s the bridge guy that makes this even more disturbing.

      • Kim

        Interesting personal review Mer. What I noticed from his fb pages (he has 2) is that he looks to be a good cook, meticulous & perfectionist, (beyond what seemed quite normal to me), unusually good maintenance of physique (very similar to BG in my view) for a ~60 yo chef and obviously proud of his looks (again seems a bit unusual for a guy his age in a small Midwestern town like Delphi where he has apparently lived last 4 yrs since the biz failed).

        No mention of his family on either FB page – seems he’s divorced now with a ‘girlfriend’, and finally, and probably most important, his businesses (and marriage?) collapsed ~4y ago due to up unpaid taxes/lack of business leaving him bitter. He states ‘he gave his body, heart and soul to his biz but it wasn’t enough’ (paraphrase).

        Although he was apparently raised in Delphi, his statements on his FB page are in broken English (maybe parents were German immigrants?). Honestly, I don’t know what to make of the guy except he seems atypical for the area. Off, like what Mer had apparently noted. On the surface he seems a guy (Teutonic perfectionist?) who may feel trapped/frustrated/out of place in Delphi.

        He also has some extreme family tragedy in his past (all in public records), his past wife and daughter seem estranged (based on published info), and other commenters from Delphi on other forums indicate troubling family violence (a child death) and molestation in his background.

        While I do have a lot of sympathy for the external character that I see, I simply cannot know if there were reasons for him to crack violently or anything about the real man. If nothing else, BTK taught us that even leaders who seem simply dedicated to improving Cub Scouts knot-tying skills at their church cannot be above suspect.

        So really, this all hinges on the facts… presence in search party day after, contact DNA, alibi, voice/build match, etc.

        If all the things that Eugene L is saying is true, and his current girlfriend is providing an alibi (or is an accomplice) than all I can say is thank God that I am not a person living in that town. I seriously wouldn’t know what to make of LE’s actions with him, although one commentator said he’s been in custody last month but hard to tell what’s true.

        Mer, Thx for the personal review, ‘ladies man’ fits what I saw on FB.

        • Dlux


          Where are the comments you refer to? I would love to read them.

        • Kim

          Dlux, these comments were from a Topix forum where the poster revealed his name.

          “Yes, he had 2 charges against him, and if memory serves me correctly it was in 1989. I keep getting the date wrong, but some can correct me if I am wrong.. there were 2 child molestation charges, he does not have to register, because it was before it became law, so he is a SO. Yes, he was in the search party that found the girls.. something else of interest I came across was Missing: Lauren Stratton Dec 14, 2016… and Emily Stratton Dec 14, 2016 from Atlanta, Indiana. I do not think they have been found yet, and I can’t find much info about them”

          The death of a family member (child) is simply from public records Googling his name.

          I have no idea who committed the murder of the 2 girls; that is up to the local prosecutor and LE to determine. I’m finished sleuthing on this, as it does seem to be someone local, therefore I think local folks such as yourself can likely contribute more to this. Best, 🙂

        • Mer

          He speaks in a broken English…..and believe me I have heard him speak extensively. When my GF and I went in for lunch we would generally be his only customers. He would usually be the only person working. We often had the feeling they were closed. He would come out of the kitchen and take our orders. He always talked to us for several minutes, made our food, then would come back when we were nearly finished and talk some more. He had a ‘Felix Unger’ air about him. He had a clipped style of speaking–like he was slightly struggling to put the sentences together. He had a formal presence. We generally had the tomato soup and grilled cheese sandwiches…….

          He generally was telling us about the specials for the evening, and he often had a good crowd for dinner. He could prepare OK food, but not great food. His evening tapas was often a disappointment.

          Who knows what this guy is actually like? I sure don’t.

          I think he was in good shape, not great shape physically. He is about 5-9 and weighed around 180. He did have muscular arms, but he was mildly obese.

  29. Lotus

    As to voice similarity, I think many men in that area have similar voices. I’ve heard several of them now that have rather close voice match to the “Down the hill” man. The sheriff working the case has a voice that is a close match.

    The actress, Erin Moran, died the other day. I saw a 2012 photo of her and her husband, Steve Fleischmann. I thought he looks like the Bridge Guy. It turns out they were living in a trailer park in Indiana and recently became homeless.
    The picture: http://ll-media.tmz.com/2017/04/22/0422-erin-moran-splash-2015.jpg

    My point here is that a lot of men in that area seem to have a certain look and style (or anti-style) and also similar voices.

    The story of the man (IB) finding the girls while searching alone seems fishy. Search teams are taught to always work in teams or at least in pairs.

    • Dlux

      The girl from Happy Days… Too bad. Anyway, I totally agree with Lotus, if you live in IN (which I do) there are two accents:
      1. Unsub – which is neutral and sounds like most men in the state.
      2. A SISA – pronounced See-suh, which is a Self Imposed Southern Accent. This sounds sad, pathetic, and forced and least of all, not southern.

      Point being, the voice isn’t necessarily going to rule in or out most folks.

      • Mer

        I’m not talking about his accent. I’m talking about his voice. That is IB’s voice on the YouTube video, and I think it matches the ‘down the hill’ voice.

        The photo does look like him.

        He lives 3 or 4 miles away from the bridge.

        He found the bodies.

        His alibi may be BS

        • Dlux

          I am talking voice too. I just think it is too small of a sample size to make any assumptions.

        • Mer

          IB has an unusual voice. It’s a little nasal and his speech is clipped. I agree Dlux that he is dainty. I always thought he was gay. He has a slightly gravelly voice, maybe like a smoker.

        • Lotus

          Mer, you can rest assured knowing the police are checking him out thoroughly.

          Would a killer show up to “find” the bodies? Maybe yes, maybe no.

        • Dlux

          I hear the alibi is bulletproof. Of course, it’s hearsay. But that is the rumor.

          Robert, can you confirm that there have been a few serial killers that have helped search for and subsequently found the bodies?

        • Sunflower

          You can learn about the inside mind of serial killers by reading the books of a prominent FBI profiler, John Douglas. He invented a profiling method of behavioral patterns typical of serial killers, rapists, etc by studying and following their murderous paths. Also, Roy Hazelwood and Stephen Michaud, both FBI profilers also have written books that detail serial killer behaviors. It is quite common for serial killers to participate in the search for the missing bodies and visit the gravestones or cemeteries of their victims, usually at night. They often interject themselves into the investigations with emails, phone calls, etc. Look the authors books up in the local library. Very interesting read!

        • Yes the famous Lewiston Serial Killer from the 1970’s. The main suspect, who is named and well known, did indeed lead a number of the searches and in one case, he was the one who found the bodies. And he was the last person seen with 3-4 people who disappeared. His name is Lance Jeffrey Voss, and I believe he is the main suspect in the disappearances and presumed murders of 5-6 people in that city when he lived there.

          They just never had enough on him to even take him to court. A sheriff wanted to have him prosecuted, but the DA would not take the case. He lives in North Carolina now with his wife and works as a postman. He may very well still be killing people. He may also have killed more in Idaho. I saw a recent photo of his and he noticed his photo was being taken. He doesn’t look 1% sorry.

        • If he has a rock-solid airtight alibi, just forget it.

          Here we go again. Shall we have a look at Mr. X once again.

          I never did think Ivan Brumbaugh was a good suspect. It was just so bizarre to think the might do such a thing.

        • I believe Edmund Kemper was a police buff who injected himself into the investigations of some of his very own homicides!

          Actually in these really nasty rape-murder killings like this, detectives typically go to the funerals and look around very carefully because these guys have a tendency to go to the funerals of their own victims!

      • Mer

        We Hoosiers can have interesting accents, Dlux.

        Up north, they sound like a Michigan accent–halting, with more precise and correct pronunciation.

        As you go south, we lose short vowel sounds and replace them with long vowel sounds. I often pronounce the word hill as heel. I have cousins who pronounce the word dog as if the “o” is from omen, not rob. And, of course we can pronounce the words more correctly, but we often don’t.

        I lived in London for a year, and the English were fascinated by my mispronunciation of the occasional word.

  30. Sunflower

    The Evil That Men Do: FBI Profiler Roy Hazelwood’s Journey into the Minds of Sexual Predators

    This book would detail what has happened to Abby and Libby.

  31. Lotus

    Something about this story about the former restaurateur does not ring true. It is this: If this man found the bodies, then police would have seen him and spoken with him. Then a few days later, when the photo was extracted from the video on the girl’s phone, the police would have said, “That is the man who found the bodies.” They likely even know him since he is from nearby.

    Instead, what happened was the police put the photo of the man on the bridge out to the public, asking people to identify. They did that because they did not recognize the man in the bridge photo. If the man who found the bodies looked like the man in the bridge photo, the police would have recognized him. They would have saved the photo and kept it as internal evidence. Instead, they spread the photo to the world asking for anyone to provide a match.

    As to the restaurateur’s voice sounding like the voice of the bridge man, where we have 3 words spoken by him, there are many men in that area whose voices sound similar. It might be possible to rule someone out based on that tiny voice sample, where the voice could not possibly match. You could rule someone in as a possibility, but not as a definite match.

    • Mer


      Let’s assume IB had something to do with this. He placed the girls’ remains near the creek at night. He may have felt compelled to return to the scene. Maybe he was worried he had left evidence behind. The fact that he found them also means he can later explain away any touch DNA by saying he had touched the girls. He wanted control of the scene.

      Maybe LE has shown us the best images of Unsub. They are not good enough to convict anyone. They do look like IB. They look like JM. Some people think they look like JL….The photos could be a lot of people.

      There is not a lot of good evidence in this case. I think even without a strong alibi, they would not have enough to convict IB.

      • Kim

        That’s another thing that bothers me about this case. My first (and last) jury duty was a double homicide (3rd victim attempted manslaughter with closed head injury, unable to witness).

        Although there was no DNA, no fingerprints, literally Nothing except a motive, the company had fired him and no alibi produced almost ALL the jury had him guilty except a few of us. That was on MUCH Less evidence than Abby & Liberty left!!

        Since that trial I have been a conscientious objector on jury trials, but I might make an exception for this case.

  32. Catherine

    The reference to the “Eugene Delphi” YouTubes have disappeared, which I I posted this Blog April 18, 2017. Also please note that reporter “Emily Longnecker” WHRT news segment March 17th, which featured the 2nd search of Logan’s Property, the segment of the “Searcher” who found the Bodies has been deleted???

  33. Kim

    I’m a biochemist and have worked with DNA, although not going to claim I’m a forensic chemist. Putting myself in the mind of the perp (ugh), my greatest concern (aside from witnesses) would be leaving trace DNA. A hair or eyelash follicle, shed skin cells, scab etc. notice that Bridge Guy wasn’t dressed with a lot of skin or hair exposed. I would be quite worried…

    If I knew that I could line up an alibi for my previous day/night, I might actually feel very compelled to make a plausible excuse to get my hands on the victims/their clothes etc to leave “excused” DNA.

    I admit it is a brave move but if I could produce an alibi I’d probably feel pretty safe. I admit a lone searcher finding bodies should be an obvious breach of protocol, but remember these were all community volunteers and it had to have been a VERY chaotic time and LE may not have scrutinized the finder too carefully at the time.

    Hopefully the detectives and DA have got this all under control. 🙂

    • Ivan Brumbaugh, the person who discovered the bodies, was detained for questioning earlier in the investigation. They may have kept him in jail for a few days.

      This is from a rumor though.

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