Updated March 23: Sexually-Motivated Double Homicide in Delphi, Indiana, February 13, 2017: Liberty German and Abigail Williams

Most of the red-hot discussion about this case has moved over to the private password-protected forum. On this forum you can discuss people’s full names, addresses, phone numbers, you name it – you can accuse anyone of anything, and you don’t have to worry about the threat of a defamation or libel lawsuit. Furthermore, the forum is rigorously policed to keep out trolls, spies, stalkers, and other disruptors. None of your comments will appear on Internet search engines – you can say anything you want under any name you want without leaving a permanent record on the Net. A vast amount of mostly unreleased photos, videos, and data is stored and discussed here. All of our material is turned over to LE, and my understanding is that LE monitor the private forum. At this moment, we have ~150 Websleuths working on the case. Instructions for joining the private forum is here.

Note to commenters: Please stop referring to Unsub as a pedophile. He may well be one, but that’s something that can be determined from this crime, as it was not a pedophilic offense. Pedophilic crimes only refer to those against victims who are 12 years old and under. A hebephilic crime would target a victim of 11-14 years of age. As you can see, there is some overlap around the tweens. Instead of being a pedophilic crime, this was a hebephilic offense. And while the perpetrator could certainly be seen as a hebephile, he’s not necessarily one. If you want to refer to the nature of the offense, use the word hebephilic instead of pedophilic. If you wish to refer to Unsub’s paraphilia, please refer to him as a hebephile and not a pedophile.

Pedophilia: Strong sexual preference for girls 12-under.

Hebephilia: Strong sexual preference for girls ~11-14.

Age of victims: 13 and 14

You do the math.

I work in mental health, and I can’t stand people using psychiatric terms incorrectly. This is a scientific blog, and words must be used properly, even by commenters. Thank you so much for this. 

Note to commenters 2: Do you have any idea how much hate mail I get from these posts? I am really getting sick and tired of saying this over and over, but most of the material below is made up of rumors and my own opinions and theories. None of that is represented as fact. The only thing that is represented as fact as statements sourced from LE or the media. If you have issues with theories, opinions and what not, just quit reading right now and save yourself the heartache. 

And incidentally, the way I wrote up the case is precisely how detectives work a case. Detectives do not work cases using the scientific method. If they did, they would hardly solve one case. It’s more “We believe this for now…this is true for now…at the moment, this is what we think happened…we believe…” In the course of their work on any  case, detectives are putting forth endless theories about what really happened and accepting them as (temporary) facts. They are then continuously revising and throwing out a lot of these theories and creating new ones.

Being a detective is about being wrong. Not just once, but being wrong over and over so many times your head will want to come off. If you can’t handle being wrong, then detective work is surely not for you. If they finally think they got their man, detectives arrive at enough conclusions for the DA to file a case against someone, but a lot of that is not factual either. They believe he did the crime. They believe that this, that, or the other happened with no way to really prove it – it’s just what they conjecture.

If the person is convicted, then the theory that they did the crime is validated as fact, but I am not sure what other evidence is. And even court decisions are not scientific fact because they get overturned all the time. Instead we could call them temporary facts (which actually defines most theory in science). There are not a whole lot of 100% certain, clear scientific facts in LE work, detective work or the judicial system itself. A good portion of the decisions made by these entities turn out to be theories, temporary but unstable facts, beliefs, hunches and guesswork, all represented as fact in the court.

Sexually-motivated double homicide of two teenage girls, one 13 and the other 14. For some background on this heartbreaking case, see here.

This is a brand new update of the case as of March 23, 2017. It includes lots of new information, some new theories about the crime and the discarding of some previous theories. All in a day’s sleuthing work.

How Do I Know All This Stuff?

First: How do I know all this stuff?

Question: “Robert, How Do You Know So Much about Serial Killers, Pedophiles, Hebephiles and Sexual Sadists?”

I have done a lot of research on this case including released information, rumors and borderline areas such as cryptic statements by LE. I have also spoken to people close to the case, including those close to the search party and law enforcement investigation of this case. I also spoke to other sleuthers and people interested in the case. Some were associated with missing persons groups. I have pretty good sleuthing skills involving research. This includes digging through background information databases online and other sorts of web research. However, I will say that I am getting my very best information from people who are close to the girls’ families. Of all of the rumors and information I get, this is some of the best.

This is the source of some of my material.

Other information is derived from my own theorizing about the case. This includes offender profiling.

So there’s the source of all of the information.

I am pessimistic once again about this case. It seems that are so many fantastic suspects and POI’s that I can’t even keep track of them. That’s a bad sign right there.

My Musings on This Case

Rumors state that Libby was killed on 2-13, possibly pretty quickly, and Abby died or 2-14. Rumors continue to state that Abbie lived at least for some time after she was attacked. She somehow survived an incredibly vicious attack, but she died later. Conclusion: Nobody knows. Libby died in 2-13 and Abbie may have too, or perhaps she died on 2-14. People close to the case are giving both scenarios as absolute proven fact,  and they can’t both be true. This is still completely up in the air as far as I can tell. Sources: People close to LE, complaints from haters.

This was not a crime of opportunity. He planned this very well. He plans his crimes with the utmost meticulousness. That is why he is armed with the gun and disguising himself. Source: My speculation based on the nature of the offense and the obvious skill involved.

Although catfishing rumors were prominent early on for some very good reasons, these rumors have died down and are now weak. At the moment, catfishing appears unlikely. If you do not know what catfishing is, look it up. Sources: Rumors.

Unsub is 5’10, 180 pounds with a bit of a middle aged man’s stomach paunch.  Other sleuths and common citizens are offering differing views, but I take the expert for now. Source: Expert on CNN, paunch obvious in photo.

In my opinion, Unsub’s age is ~60, but really who knows. LE’s latest estimate is that he is 40-50 years old, but that’s seems too young to me. At the very least, that style of pants is outdated and nowadays is only worn by men over 40 in that area. Presence of fanny pack also indicates an older man. They were popular in the late 1980’s, but hardly anyone wears them anymore except for some older guys. Conclusion: At the moment, the LE estimate of 40-50 is the best guess, but that could still be off. Sources: LE stated that he had a fanny pack. LE estimate on age. Info on fanny packs and jeans style by people looking at the photos.


Excellent new drawing of Unsub from an LE artist.

LE believes that Unsub came from out of state to do this crime. Source: Recent remark by Indiana State Police quoted in media, my theory based on my favorite POI.

Clearly Unsub has a pistol, a .45 or 911. The pistol was holstered to his right side, which means he is left-handed. The outline of the pistol can clearly be seen in the photo released of the man. A photo exists showing the pistol outlined with graphic software. Assuming that is a pistol, and it is, then Unsub is left-handed. Source: Gun is obviously visible in photograph. Left-handedness concluded from the holstered gun pointing backwards on the right side.


Photo clearly shows a semiautomatic .911 or 45 mm handgun holstered on his right, which means he is lefthanded. Incredibly, about 85% of the people who see this photo insists that’s not a gun, or that it can’t be a gun until God or the cops or Mom or whoever tells us what we are seeing with our own two eyes. I don’t know about the rest of you, but I have two eyeballs. When my eyes tell me I am seeing something, I take it as proven fact. Apparently we humans are not supposed to believe very our own eyes!

Unsub may be trying to disguise himself in the photos by using a hat and a scarf. Source: LE statement.

Unsub is wearing a hat, a jacket with a hoodie and blue jeans in the photo. In my opinion, the hat is a camouflage hunting cap with padded ear muffs. Unsub is overdressed for the weather. He seems to have layers of clothing on. He has almost his entire body covered with clothing. Part of this is no doubt to disguise himself, but another reason is so he will have few exposed areas of his body where the girls could leave scratch marks if the girls fight back hard, although they still could scratch up his face pretty well. Source: LE statements about clothing. Statement about type of cap is my conjecture from the photo. Reason for being heavily dressed is common sense for an offender preparing to commit rape and murder.

Fanny pack is probably where he kept his murder kit. Sources: Murder kit is my conjecture. What else is in there? A first aid kit?


GIF image of Unsub photos run together.

There has been much talk about whether or not there were two murderers or one. It is not yet proven that there were two killers, and LE is now leaning towards the theory that there was one killer. However, even LE themselves described who did of this crime as “the murderers.” And from the very start, they referred to Unsub as a participant instead of a suspect. Participant is almost never used unless LE thinks there is more than one killer.

Police are now walking this back by saying that it’s standard procedure to assume maybe more than one killer in a homicide case, but that’s not even true so they must think we are stupid. It isn’t. There was some specific reason why they thought there were two killers in this case, and we do not know what that reason was. At any rate, they seem to be walking the two killers theory back too, and they are leaning towards one killer. Conclusion: Two killers or one? Take your pick. No one knows! Source: Very strange LE statements.

There have been persistent rumors since even before the case was released to the media (these early rumors coming from family members) that Abbie survived til the next day, 2-14. The rumors were that she was found alive but died on the way to the hospital, that she was alive when found but died soon after, that the coroner said she survived the attack but died of hypothermia the next day, that her body was still warm when found, etc. These rumors started almost instantly from people close to the family. We now have some excellent information that she somehow survived the attack and tried to crawl a ways away until she died. I am still getting reports that Abbie died on 2-14, and her body was still warm when found from some of my best sources close to the families, so this version is still strong.

Now there is aggressive criticism of this theory from people who insist that both girls died on 2-13. Which begs the question again of how and why all the survival stories even got started in the first place. Conclusion: The best analysis now is that Abbie did indeed survive the initial attack and died at some point later on. The thing we do not know is how long she survived after she was attacked. We do not know if she died soon after the attack or if she lingered for anywhere from 7-10 hours, which is my theory. Sources: Rumors, people close the family, people close to LE.

Rumors from the search party stated that the girls had to have been moved since the dump site found on 2-14 had been searched on 2-13. The searchers were adamant that they had searched the dump site thoroughly on 2-13. But the girls were covered with leaves, which would have made them hard to find at night.

On the other hand, new evidence states that searchers ran a thermal imager over the area (perhaps with an aircraft?), and while there were plenty of living things down there, none of them were human. In other words, the only things alive in that woods when the imager was run were wild animals. One would think that if the girls had been put there by 4 PM or so on 2-13 that the bodies would have shown up on the thermal imager. Sources: People close to the search party, people close to the families, leak from LE.

In my previous post, I had heard that searchers had followed the girls’ train down a rather steep slope to the dump site. I assumed that that was a foot trail, and I decided that the girls were marched alive down to their deaths. Indeed, that is what my source told me. So much of that did not ring true, for one thing, the dump site is quite pristine so obviously the girls were not killed there and they would have to have been killed there to make that theory make sense.

However, I heard a new rumor now which made so much more sense. The new rumor said that yes the searchers followed the girls’ trail to the dump site, but the trail that the followed was made up of drag marks, not footsteps. So the killer returned the girls to the forest where they were abducted somehow. But this might not be difficult if he had kept them alive in, say, an outbuilding on Ron Logan’s land to have his fun with them overnight. No searchers would go near those outbuildings as they were located far from the search zone, so he had no fear of being caught.

Perhaps he terrorized the girls with a gun or perhaps he had gagged them. They were definitely bound when they were kept in this outbuilding. It also makes sense that he would have kept them alive during this time. It’s hard to imagine the killer killing or trying to kill the girls and then leaving them presumably dead in the outbuilding. He certainly would not have stayed there with two dead bodies and as Abbie was alive the whole time she was in the outbuilding, he would have been able to tell that she survived his brutalizations and he would logically attack her again and finish her off once and for all.

I believe that the homicidal attack on the girls, no doubt the throat slitting, may have been done not long before they were dumped on the hill. It makes more sense than the guy hanging out in a shed with two dead girls for hours or leaving two dead girls in the outbuilding to come back later and dump them.

One more thing we need to note is that there is no way the killer dumped those bodies there on 2-13 or even up until 2:30 AM on 2-14 as there were loud and obvious searchers with their shouts and lights in the area. You don’t dump bodies right in the middle of a search party that is looking for just those bodies. No one does that.

Yet somehow he dumped those bodies there between 2:30 AM on 2-13 and 9:30 AM on 2-14 when the next search started. Logically there is no way that he would have dumped those bodies in that dump site in daylight. That’s just stupid. So depending on whenever dawn was that day in Delphi, the bodies were dumped in the pitch dark early morning hours of 2-14 between 2:30 AM and ~5-6 AM.

It seems as though the brutal spearing of one of the girls (see below) must have occurred at the dump site, especially since even that spearing somehow did not kill Abbie! To say she was speared at the outbuilding or before being dragged down the hill to the dump site makes little sense. How do you drag a body down a dark slope at night with a spear in its stomach? It will make the dragging very hard and the stick may well become dislodged. Further, how does Abbie possibly survive being speared and then drug down the hill with a stick speared into her chest. No way. Abbie may well be Super Girl with more lives than a cat, but she could not have survived that.

Obviously they were dragged down the hill, placed at the dump site and then the killer speared Abbie in the stomach as one final “F- you” to the poor girl. This final attack, probably a Parthian thrust no doubt, shows the profound and hatred and contempt that this killer must have felt for his victims.

Yet how could the killer have known about a break in the searchers so he could do his early morning dumping in a ~3-4 time window. This is something I never understood. Did he have a partner or lookout on the property who notified him when the coast was clear? Makes little sense. Occam’s Razor offers us a simpler choice. Of course he knew when there was break in the searchers so he could body-dump. He knew this because he never left Logan’s property the whole time! He never even left the area. He just stayed there, hiding with his victims in plain sight, so to speak. Makes sense, right?  Source: Leak from LE.

The crime scene does not make a lot of sense in this case. The girls seem to have been attacked soon after Unsub said, “Go down the hill.” The entire south side of the creek was roped off as a crime scene. I do not feel that this is a homicide site; instead, I feel there was some sort of an altercation here as he tried to put them in a vehicle, perhaps a Ford Mustang, that he had parked there for this purpose.

People are now saying that the whole attack was over soon after it began, and there are reports saying that the 6-minute audiotape contains the horrifying record of a homicide. This would imply that the girls were murdered very quickly. But when they were found, they were bound and had been sexually brutalized as well as being very badly beaten. One would think this would take some time to do.

Also there would be a lot of noise if they were killed right away on the south side of the creek, and someone surely would have heard. The degree of the assault indicating a significant assault over a period of time and the lack witnesses hearing noise or screams on the south side of the creek implies to me that the attacks took place elsewhere, perhaps in some remote structure. If they were in a remote structure, he could have assaulted them a long time without being seen, and the sound of the assault and the girls’ could easily not have been heard as there was no one nearby. New reports state that LE believes that the girls were assaulted and attempts were made to kill them in some sort of a structure somewhere, perhaps on Ron Logan’s property.

Reports that the crime was over quickly after it began do not make sense for a variety of reasons. However, there is some brutal audio and perhaps video that Liberty recorded on her phone. Some of the audio was recorded right before the abduction, and there is six minutes after that. The audio right after the recording of the man saying, “Down the hill,” records the girls screaming.

Does that imply that the girls were attacked soon after being told to go down the hill? Not necessarily. Perhaps Liberty was very smart, and she was turning the recorder on and off throughout the abduction, only turning it on when things got scary or brutal.

However, whatever was recorded on the phone was surely recorded before 5:30 PM 2-13. After that time and for several hours, Liberty’s phone was pinging all over town which means it was not in Liberty’s possession, or perhaps it was on her body but not accessible as she was tied up. But in that case, the killer would have had to discover the phone in her clothing and discarded it. He got close and personal with these girls and was familiar with their clothing as both may been disrobed. At the point of disrobing, he could have found Liberty’s phone on her.

The assumption has been that Liberty discarded the phone in the woods before 5:30 PM, and then the phone pinged all over town looking for a signal for several hours before dying. The problem with this theory is that if she threw the phone in the woods, it should have been found by now. And the latest rumor is that Liberty’s phone was not found by LE. The audio and video was obtained from the Cloud as video and audio from smartphones is saved very quickly after it is recorded. So LE didn’t even need the phone because all the relevant information was on the Cloud.

OK, so why was Liberty’s phone pinging all over town for several hours during the search? This would make sense if the phone was in the woods, but it appears now that the phone was not in the woods. So why did it ping all over town? Perhaps it was discarded in some other remote part of the town area.

Or perhaps the killer left the two girls bound in some structure somewhere while the search went on, while he himself took off in a vehicle and drove aimlessly all around town for a few hours during the search. But Unsub would have had to be a moron to keep a pinging phone with him. But if Unsub saw it, he could have grabbed the phone so LE would not find it as evidence. So why not turn it off? Why leave it on as you drive all over town?

At any rate under this scenario, Unsub either disposed of or destroyed the phone after it died, and this is why it has never been found. Perhaps he smashed it to bits. Perhaps he discarded it in the garbage somewhere. Of course, all of this makes sense if the latest rumors about LE not finding the phone are correct.

This is the first rumor that says anything about whether the phone was found or not. Up to now, we had no word from LE or rumors about the disposition of the phone. Conclusion: There are various theories floating around concerning Liberty’s phone, but they only make sense if LE found the phone. If LE did not retain the phone, the rest of the evidence around the phone doesn’t make a lot of sense. Bottom line is we don’t know anything about this phone or whether it was even found by LE or not. Source: People close to the search party, people close to the case.

There is a theory from people close to the family saying that the actual killings took place on the north side of the creek, However, it was the south side that was roped off as a crime scene, not the north side. Yes, the tape was removed two days later, but so what? This is standard procedure in a park. But if the south side was not a homicide scene but instead some other sort of scene such as an abduction scene, it could have been gone over quickly and there would be no reason to keep it roped off.

The girls were clearly not attacked or not attacked much at the dump site as the dump site was described as pristine. How does a murder site look pristine? It doesn’t. Conclusion: The best theory right now is that the south side was the scene of some scuffle probably as he was trying to tie them up or get them in his vehicle. The best evidence now suggests that the girls were killed somewhere else, apparently in some structure. But no one knows where this structure might be.

The FBI interviewed a man who had property on the south side of the creek about structures on his land, so it appears that the FBI thinks that the structure could have been on the south side of the creek. The major searches of Ron Logan’s land, the structures there, etc. imply to me that the girls were murdered somewhere on Logan’s land, probably in some  structure on his land. So the repeated searches of Logan’s property do not imply that Logan is guilty so much as that he is the owner of property where a serious crime occurred!

In addition, the notion of a structure fits well into the very earliest statements about the murders from family members released 1.5 hours before the media even recovered the crime. These statements said that both girls were found raped and murdered in a cabin. People went with that for a while until it was shown to be untrue by credible folks. But now we can tie it all together! Sure, the cabin or structure played a serious role in the crime, but not as a dump site. Instead, the cabin was the place where they were abused, raped and killed! Then they were dumped a short ways away. So the Cabin Theory makes a new appearance, this time making a lot more sense. Sources:        Family members, people close to the family, rumors, leaks from LE.

There is indeed a voice recording of Unsub saying, “Go down the hill.” This was recorded heroically by Libby by turning on the recorder on her phone as the girls were being abducted. The sound recording of the crime is said to be much longer than what was released. It has also been implied, terrifyingly, that the sound recording is actually the recording of the rapes and murders. That probably makes it one of the worst sound recordings made in a crime case in some time, going back to the Toolbox Murders in 1979

What is on the unreleased portion of the tape? After Unsub says, “Go down the hill,” at some point not long after that, you hear both girls screaming. Source: People close to the family.

There is talk of a Ford Mustang that can be barely seen in the lower left of the photo of Abbie on the bridge below the bridge. It is very hard to make out, but it could well be a vehicle. How it was determined to be a Ford Mustang and a white one at that is not known. It is not yet known how this purported vehicle was involved in the case. I would think that this vehicle was used by Unsub to travel to the crime scene and then it was used again to abduct and transport the girls, apparently to some structure somewhere.

The road that it is parked on is a very little used road that almost no one has even heard of. It appears to have been a road used by workers to maintain  the bridge. Access to it is quite difficult and involves some convoluted twists and turns of road, not to mention that part of the access is via a private driveway. It does seem very odd to me that that purported vehicle is in that location right before the girls got abducted. If that is a car, I am thinking that that car does not belong there at all and that it is significant to the case in some unknown way. Source: Sleuths analyzing the photo of Libby on the bridge, people close to the family

Libby’s grandfather who raised her said, “I know Libby. She put up one Hell of a fight.” He is correct that Libby put up a strong battle. The reason that the grandfather said she put up a wild fight is probably because that is what it says in the medical report. If she fought hard, there will be talk of defensive wounds and maybe DNA under her nails. The condition of her body at the funeral adds weight to the notion that she fought back very hard and sustained many defensive wounds because she had many small wounds on her body and face. In that case, Unsub may have scratch marks. Source: Media reports and statements from people at the funeral. Common sense that the only way the grandfather would known that she fought hard was if he saw the coroners’ report.

I believe the gun obviously holstered on the right under the jacket of Unsub was probably used to control the girls. He also got them to keep quiet with the gun. However, I do not believe the gun was used to kill the girls. It would have made too much noise. Rumors that this was not a gun crime are correct. Source: Common sense that the gun would be the best way to control the girls and common sense that a gun crime would have involved audible gunshots. No gunshots were heard, so doubtless there was no gun fired in this crime.

There is a rumor that both girls had their throats slit. This is a strong rumor. Funerals were open casket, and both girls had scarves covering their necks, more to cover something up than as clothing. There is a counter-rumor to this one saying that some people at the funeral said they saw no scarves on the girls, but this is a weak rumor. The rumor about the presence of scarves is a much stronger rumor. This adds weight to the theory that their throats were slit.

There are two rumors about the knife attack on one of the girls, probably Liberty. A weak rumor says she was decapitated. The strong rumor says she was nearly decapitated. A decapitation would have been hard for a funeral director to hide, and both girls had their heads on at the funeral. Of the two rumors, the strong one looks better. Since Abbie survived the assault for at least some time afterwards, it was surely Liberty who was nearly decapitated. It would have been almost impossible for Abbie to survive a near-decapitation. No one can survive that.

In fact, it appears that the the wound to Abbie’s throat was not a particularly grievous wound. In other words, if he was trying to kill her, he did a poor job of it. Although the rumor that their throats were slit is only a rumor, it is interesting that there have been no counter-rumors saying this method of attack is not true. One would think that if there were any doubt about this sort of attack, we would have heard at least one counter-rumor by now. Sources: Rumors including the very first reports of the crime from family members. Later confirmation from people close to LE. Statements by people at the funeral.

A new rumor says that both girls were beaten so badly in their faces that they were nearly unrecognizable. This rumor may well be true, but at least Abbie was fixed up pretty good in her face for the funeral, so one wonders how a funeral director could have covered up such devastating wounds. Source: Source close to the family.

This offense was clearly sexually motivated, and it seems quite clear that sexual assault occurred in the course of the crime. The very first rumors from the family members said both girls had been raped. This was later amended to at least one of the girls. The notion that only one girl was raped would not seem logical. This fellow had a lot of time to carry out his assaults and rapists don’t usually only rape one victim and leave the other one alone.

There is a new report that says that while both girls were raped, Libby was sexually assaulted worse than Abby was, but I am not sure what that implies. With this new rumor that Libby received a more brutal sexual assault than Abby did, it seems quite clear that both girls were raped. Sources: Very first reports of the crime from family members and later confirmation from people close to LE, general rumors, sources close to family.

There is uncertain information about the state of the bodies when found. All rumors indicate that Abbie was nude. There are differing reports about Liberty, some saying she was clothed and some saying she was also nude. Considering that clothing was found in the creek in an attempt to eliminate DNA evidence, it does not make sense that the killer would leave probable DNA-contaminate clothing on Liberty’s body. Abbie’s clothes were surely found in the water and common sense would indicate that Liberty’s were too. Conclusion: The theory that best explains the facts is that both girls were found nude. Sources: Rumors, sources close to the family.

There is a new rumor from a very good source stating that DNA, apparently of Unsub, was in fact recovered from the crime scene. However, LE has not been able to match up the DNA with any known collected samples from felons or former felons. Source: A good source in Delphi.

From the same source, there is a new rumor that bootprints were found at the scene, apparently of boots worn by Unsub. This would make sense as LE had some boots in an evidence bag a few days after the killings. They innocuously said that the boots had nothing to do with the crime, but they were probably lying. They probably did not recover Unsub’s actual boots themselves. Why would Unsub discard his boots at the crime scene and walk away shoeless? Makes no sense. It is more likely that LE matched the bootprints to that type and size of boot, implying that Unsub was wearing boots of that make and size at the time of the crime. Sources: LE, source in Delphi.

The girls’ clothing was found in the creek. This was no doubt an attempt by Unsub to destroy any DNA evidence. Source: Statements from reporter at the scene. Common sense indicates that this was an attempt to destroy DNA in the case.

There is an incredible new rumor that victim Abigail Williams, age 13, was pregnant at the time of the attack. It is now known that she definitely had a boyfriend, who was 16 years old. He has been located, and we know his name. No one knows if there is anything to this rumor or not, as it just broke today. Source: A sleuth.

There is now a very gruesome rumor about the attack. The rumor says that Abbie’s body was found with a wooden stick, stake or pointed branch driven into her stomach. In other words, Unsub would have stood over Abbie and plunged the stick into her belly, pinioning her like a shishkebab. If this is true, that it is even more incredible for her to survive the attack and even to crawl around with a stick in her body. Source: A source close to the family.

Tying together both of the shocking new rumors is the suggestion that Unsub knew that Abbie was pregnant, and the stick attack was an attempt to kill the fetus too. One last, “Go to Hell,” and show of contempt for his victim by Unsub before he walked away. Although this makes sense, one wonders how he could have possibly known that she was pregnant given that she  was not very far along. Look at Abbie in the bridge photo. Does she look pregnant in that photo? Don’t think so. So how would Unsub discover that she was pregnant. When people are under the control of a potentially murderous person who is assaulting them with what looks like homicidal intent, a lot of victims make various pleas to their attacker(s) to please spare their lives.

These take the form of appeals such as, “Please, no, I have a wife and three kids!…No, spare me, I am the sole breadwinner for my family of five!,” etc. I am sure there are many more. Victims make all sorts of pleas and engage in various manipulations of the person assaulting them in an attempt to stay alive. Most people do not want to die and will try all sorts of desperate measures in an attempt to not be murdered.

Sometimes they work, the attacker has a change of heart and decides to spare one or more victims. If Abbie pleaded with Unsub that he would be killing not just her but another potential life, then Unsub would have learned of her pregnancy then. Source: Speculation by me and a fellow sleuth attempting to make sense of the stick attack by tying it to the pregnancy theory.

There is now a lot of talk that Ron Logan or perhaps his son were involved in this crime. Logan was arrested recently on a probation violation for a drunk driving case. This set the rumor mill wild as there was much talk that Logan was involved in the murders. He was jailed for a week or so and a secondary search of his land was conducted. Many took this to mean that Logan was the killer. Logan was released after his probation violation hearing, which means that LE does not consider him a suspect in the murders. Furthermore, Logan always seemed an unlikely suspect for me for many reasons. Source: News reports.

There is a new rumor out saying that the case against Ron Logan is completely corrupt and is being led by a man who could care less if Logan did these crimes or not. All this man wants is to see Logan destroyed. This man is another local with whom Logan had a falling out. The man has money and has long wanted to buy Logan’s 40 acres, however, Logan was never willing to sell. Logan’s property is said to be choice land with waterfalls, etc. This man figures if he can get Logan prosecuted for murder or at least have his life ruined by these allegations, then at some point, Logan will sell his land, possibly to pay his legal bills. Anyway, this man figures that ruining Ron Logan will allow this man to somehow acquire Logan’s property. Pretty corrupt. Source: A person close to the families of the victims.

Three other posts in this series:

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Filed under Crime, Criminology, Law enforcement, Midwest, Regional, Serial Killers, Sociology, USA

108 responses to “Updated March 23: Sexually-Motivated Double Homicide in Delphi, Indiana, February 13, 2017: Liberty German and Abigail Williams

  1. Garry Palin

    Have an important Question here Ron- under the section- “The crime scene does not make a lot of sense”- in paragraph 6, on the last line you say – “upon disrobing the girls he could have found Libby’s gun on her”-WOW- so you are saying Libby “had a gun” ? and you’d have to speculate that if she had a gun, she likely had bullets for it as well ? You would think if Libby had a gun, and she could see things getting scary, like on the South Side of the bridge, and they were trying to force the girls into a car, you would think she would have tried to use the gun and kill the men.
    This makes sense she would carry a gun to a secluded area, but why didn’t she use it ? Maybe this is a “typo” on your part- I don’t know ? can u verify?

    Also what I learned is that they have a DNA sample but “no match” and I guess we have to assume it was the killer(s) DNA- but we don’t know for sure? and maybe LE doesn’t either. Depends where it came from. If it came from inside one of the girl’s bodies, or better yet on them, then it’s likely the Killer’s DNA. I say this because if Abby was pregnant as rumors say, that means she was sexually active, and that DNA could have come from a sexual encounter-“likely her boyfriend”.( the night before or morning) I’ve seen this happen on another case as well, where the murdered girl had sex with 2 guys in 1 night. This really threw off investigators.

    On the DNA subject, you say they have a DNA sample, and that is good, but what I question is why don’t they have 2 DNA samples ? as it’s speculated there were ( 2) killers. It could well be that there’s ( 1) killer ? You would think they would have Abby’s boyfriend submit a DNA sample to clear him off this case. Is it possible that if Abby was pregnant, that her boyfriend, or his family didn’t want this baby, or association with Abby, and that it may tarnish their reputation. Could it be they were involved ? or hired someone to kill the girls. It does not seem right that the Killer would shove a wooden stick in her belly- but maybe that was to send a message that the “unborn” was not wanted. A bit of a mystery ???

    On Ron Logan- if he has been released like you say, then it seems like LE does not believe he’s the killer. I do think he could still be involved, and if so-only in an “indirect way.” Because he had a 40 acre farm, he probably had guys work for him etc. to help him keep up the farm. These workers may have asked-“who are those 2 girls on your property” ? and then Logan would tell them. Either that or Logan may have brought it up. Remember here that Abby only lived 6 city blocks away. ( 1/8 of a mile) You really can’t keep Logan in jail for “maybe being involved.” ( indirectly) time will tell !!!

    Regarding the motive or target- I also think it was Abby, she looked more girl like, and innocent, just the kind of girl that would attract a Hebephile psycho killer. Abby looked very little girl like to me, and I think that’s what caused so much public outrage. Libby to me looked more like a rugged “Tomboy” type girl that looked very strong and athletic ( played baseball) I think Libby gave this killer(s) more than he could handle, and that’s why he really slashed her throat good-“make sure she was dead-out of the way” so he could then have his fun with Abby. I still do not understand why Libby would not have shot these guys ??? You say she had a “gun”- she knew these guys looked menacing. Are you sure Libby had a gun ???- very hard to believe- but I guess possible ???

    My Summary thus far- it appears like this is going to be a waiting game, until they get a match from DNA recovered from the murder site/dump. You did not say in your post if LE found any building structure where the girls were actually killed in. You would think if they were indeed killed in some kind of structure somewhere- that means the killer(s) knew that particular place was vacant, and therefore the killer(s) is likely local, or got information about activity or circumstances of that area. I guess we’ll have to wait now- I’d sure like to see these gutless cowards caught soon- before they take another innocent life. ( good post Ron)

    • My name is Rob, not Ron. Thanks though.

      If you like the site, maybe think about making a donation? The site runs on donations and I have a low income.


    • I cannot think of any other reason to impale her in the stomach than to kill that fetus. I mean, he’s a sick fuck, but that is a weird thing to do.

      This guy is a sick fuck, a serial type. A sociopath and no doubt a sexual sadist. He’s a bad person. He looks normal, but people who know him well like family may not like him one bit. And there may be some child molesting in the background.

      Although the crime is not pedophilic, it could have been committed by a fixated pedophile, as having an upper age range of 13-14 is fairly common among pedophiles. Much past that and a teenage girl looks too much like a woman, and that turns off the pedophiles. Pedophiles refer to 16 year old girls are “grandmas.” LOL. But 13 and 14 year old girls still retain enough childlike features to attract the pedophile (and are starting to get enough womanlike features to attract normal men).

      We need to stop looking at normal people like Mr. Logan. This guy’s weird, and at his age, he’s been acting bad for a while, and some people have caught on to his criminal behavior. He may well have been getting away with his crimes so far though. BTK Killer had no criminal record.

    • Hit men do not rape and do not torture and torment their victims, nor do they assault them in sick, fucked up ways like this guy did.

      A hit man would have just killed both girls with a shot to the head and then he would be gone. But I believe even most hit men will not kill minors, especially young teenage girls.

    • Gun is a typo. I meant to write phone.

      Also it was meant to say that Abbie bore the worst of the sexual attacks, which once again implies to me that Abbie was the target. I also have some unreleased info that suggests that Abbie was the target. People have been assuming that she was the target for some time.

      But I also think this guy wanted to do two girls. I am told that there are pedophile networks and some men in these networks like the thrill of having sex with two girls at once and then killing them. It’s like the ultimate sick fuck high.

      Abbie did indeed look like a little girl. I have seen another photo of her where she is very beautiful and it shows that the woman has come out to play, which is obvious if she was pregnant. Shows her very made-up, hair fixed up very nice, and a seductive look about her. Totally different from the girly pics. This one is more womanish.

      13 year old girls still have what a friend calls “those little girl faces.” That turns off a a lot of normal guys like me because I like “womanness ” in a female like any normal guy. The more it looks like a woman, the more I like it. The more it looks like a girl or a kid, ugh. Starting to be a turnoff. I believe the little girl faces are because 13 year old girls may retain baby fat in their cheeks.

      But those little girl faces and other things are what keeps 13 year old girls in the upper age range of many pedophiles. They like “childness.” Guys like you and me like “womanness.”

  2. Mer

    Thank you for the update and all the effort in gathering information. These are my thoughts. The girls were abducted from the SE end of the bridge, placing them south of Deer Creek. I have looked at a satellite map of the area. The SE end of the bridge is not close to the creek, but the photo of Abby on the bridge that shows the car on a dirt road is near the creek. The satellite map I looked at shows a road that runs north from county road 625W and runs north and then east ending in a circular turn around. The car must be on an unmarked road and about a quarter mile from the SE end of the bridge. The only way out of there is south to 625W. This leads to Indiana Packers Corporation, a hog slaughterhouse. There are also a few other areas south of the creek that look like industrial sites and there is a machine shop on a road that travels east west. I don’t think it is very likely that he went onto a stranger’s farm and used an outbuilding. Outbuildings tend to be near a farmhouse, and anyone driving onto someones property would be noticed. I was specifically looking for an area on the satellite map that showed a secluded road leading into a wooded area, or a deserted property, or some other place that would be concealed.
    To get to the dump site, he must have either traveled through town or through a county road that has a bridge across Deer Creek. Not all county roads would cross the creek. I think he wanted to return the girls near the site of abduction to cover his tracks, but was not willing to go to the site south of the creek because of the presence of police. So, he made his way to the north side of Deer Creek, behind a cemetery, to dump the girls. Apparently they were still alive at this point based on the info you provided.
    It’s likely that some nearby location south of Deer Creek was used.

    • Garry Palin

      Mer- how would returning the girls to the abduction site ” cover his tracks” all it would do is increase his chances of getting caught, as he would not know if any family members stayed behind to search, and could still be there in the middle of the night, and see his car “headlights” as he was returning to dump the bodies.

      I think if he would have wanted to cover his tracks, he would have brought the bodies like 15-20 miles away, and dumped them in some bush somewhere off some isolated road. They would have not been found for a long time, and evidence DNA etc, would be zero, as rain and weather would wash away evidence, not to mention wild animals. Maybe he really wanted to make a “statement” by returning them to the abduction or kill site ??? That’s my take on this.

      • Mer

        I agree with you. But he did return them. The question is why. It would have made so much more sense to take them somewhere like Battle Ground and throw them in the Wabash. I think the fact that he returned them means he was never far away from the site of abduction and that he may have committed the assaults at his own property.

        • Mer

          Returning the girls would obscure the fact that they were taken from the site

        • Garry Palin

          I agree, that because he returned them, he would have been very close bye. I don’t agree that it would obscure the fact they were taken from site. LE is not dumb, and would know they were abducted likely on the South Side, and dumped on the North Side.

          The only way he could have “obscured” the fact they were taken from the site, would have been to dump them on the “South Side”, where the struggle took place. Why dump them on the North Side-making 2 locations of activity ??? Answer is North Side was a lot easier for him to access, but this doesn’t suggest then that they were not taken from site.

          Of course because the South Side was taped off-it’s still possible he killed them out there as well. LE would know that, as there would be blood and stuff everywhere. This does not make sense, as Abby’s body was still warm when found, so likely she was killed on Feb 14, 2017-shortly before 9AM.

        • Mer

          I think I heard the word mutilated very early on, and my best guess is that it came LE, and it would have been a video from WLFI. It was probably a remark based on Abby being impaled. I may have just assumed it was sexual based on the comment which I think was from the Sheriff.

        • Thanks Mer.

          The more I hear about this case, the more I am starting to see this as DOWNRIGHT SICKENING.

          He’s a sick fuck, he not only rapes and kills and he also mutilates and perhaps tortures. That’s off in Bundy/Jack the Ripper/Randy Kraft territory. When looking for POI’s, we need to start thinking of real psychos like those guys. Ordinary Joes are just not capable of this sick shit.

        • Mer

          I want to revisit the dumping of the girls bodies. Apparently the killer returned to bodies to a nearby site — across the creek. His motivation to do that is important. Somewhere around Delphi or not too far away is a crime scene that has not been discovered. It’s the site where this monster tortured and raped and killed these girls.

          The significance of returning the girls is important. He didn’t kill them south of the creek. He would have left them there and escaped. He didn’t want to kill them there because he would leave evidence behind. He got the girls under control south of the creek and got them in a vehicle. He took them to an unknown location. That is where all the evidence is. He returned the girls so LE would think they never left the park.

          He is somehow tied to the spot he took them to. It’s either his property or the property of his elderly mother or aunt or something like that. There is some connection that he has to the site. He needed a secure location to commit his crimes and returned the girls to keep the investigation contained. He had to be highly motivated to do this because there was a lot of risk involved. That makes me think his connection to wherever he took them is strong.

        • This is it. This is exactly what is going on. And the last leak I got, supposedly directly from LE, said that this is exactly the theory that LE is working on right now.

      • Mer

        It would increase his chance of being caught. It sounds like he did return, and the girls were alive, and he marched them down behind the cemetery and killed them. I think he wanted to create the impression that they had never left the immediate area, but I think he did take them some distance away.

        • I no longer believe that they were marched to their deaths. The were dragged down that hill to the dump site. They did not walk there. I doubt if he dragged two live girls down that hill. Surely he was dragging what he thought were two dead girls. He gets to the place where he dumps them, gives Abbie a final coup de gras, and covers both of them with leaves.

        • Mer

          Early in the investigative phase of this crime I read a report that the girls had been sexually mutilated, perhaps with a knife. It reminded me of a scene from the movie Monster. The movie was about a prostitute serial killer in Florida who killed 5 or 6 guys and was put to death. There is a scene where a man rapes her with a wooden stake that he carved from a limb. Maybe Unsub used the stake he drove through Abby to sexually mutilate these children

        • One of the very first rumors that I heard from someone connected with the family was that they were found in a cabin raped and mutilated, as he put it. Recently someone else used the word mutilated also. I’ve only heard that rumor two times, but now with the stake story, it is starting to look like there might be something to it. No one has used the phrase sexually mutilated yet, but possibly that was the nature of the mutilation.

          This guy is one sick fuck. Think of Bundy or Jack the Ripper or Tony Perkins in Psycho. He’s really out there.

          We need to stop looking at ordinary people like Ron Logan and start digging deeper at some freaks. This guy may appear quite normal to most people, but I believe that people who know him very well say he is very much not ok. A lot of people who know him are also terrified of him. He does not have a reputation of being 100% normal like Logan.

        • Nicky Pemberton

          George Webb believes there are 4 people involved in these murders. Also, the police initially said “murderers”. The handling of the case shows the police are trying to cover up who all was involved so they can pin it on one person.

  3. Magneto

    I just found a picture of a “son motorboating mom while sister rides her”:

  4. Mer

    What kind of man could do these things? I think he would live an isolated life. Has a dwelling nearby, within 30 miles. Lives alone. Maybe not well known by his neighbors, they may view him as hostile or odd. Has a bad or obscure history of relationships with women.

    • Magneto

      What kind of man would motorboat his mom while his sister rides her?

    • I would agree with this. I believe he lives alone, but he may have been married or even married with kids in the past. But any marriage may have had a lot of issues, probably due to his sociopathy and sexual weirdness. Some people who know him well think he is messed up and dangerous. I think people may be frightened of him. He could be a scary dude.

      I think people may have wanted to turn him in over this as a suspect due to his sociopathy and sexual oddities. But he has so many people terrified of him that they are afraid to get involved. They think if they get involved, LE will clear him somehow and he will find out they turned him in and come after him to kill him. He’s a scary guy and a lot of people don’t want to make him mad.

      • Mer

        Hey Robert

        Just made a contribution to your site. I am only a Delphi Murder contributor, but I value your site for all the theory you have put out and how you have brought together all the rumors and statements from LE, etc.

        The only other sites I have gotten info from have been the WLFI webpage and a FB about the crime. The FB site is mostly consumed with the existence of Ron Logan and other weak opinions. The WLFI site had a lot of LE video early in the investigation but seems played out now.

  5. Garry Palin

    Mer- you are definitely right-“what kind of man would do this” ? good question, but definitely some “psychopathic nutcase” like Ted Bundy. I cannot see him transporting the girls more than 5 miles-“tops” unless he had a covered van. Would you drive 30 miles with the girls alive in your car
    and drive them back 30 miles when their dead-“no way”- he took them somewhere closeby I think. Police could have had roadblocks etc set up, and he would be aware of that. He wouldn’t want to be stopped with 2 dead girls in his car. I’m quite sure he killed them closeby, in some structure.

    This guy probably lives alone or with an older parent, and he definitely may have a problem with females. On the other hand BTK- Dennis Rader viciously killed women, and had a family and kids, and attended church, and he was also a psychopathic killer-so you never know.

    • Steve Mathis

      This man is obviously psychopathic. I agree with Robert’s conclusions on the man being very organized and well prepared for this. Like he said it was a high degree of difficulty and he knew what he was doing. You can see he hasn’t been caught, so he knew how to cover up his tracks. I see experience and that he has done this before. His biggest mistake was getting filmed and recorded. But he didn’t account for LE taking this stuff off the cloud. That’s a strong rumor on they got it. Maybe messy crime scene would contradict my statement on experience.

      • Hell yeah he’s a sociopath. Only a sociopath could do such a thing. The rest of us “don’t have it in us” to do something like this. For instance God forbid a guy like Gary or I got wrapped up in some horrible crime like this, we might even take out the weapon, but personally I would just drop and say, “Fuck it. I can’t do this, man.” I have tried to envision myself doing such a crime as part of the profiling process and also to test my morals. Even if I could tie the girls up and abduct them, when I got them to the place where I was going to do my deeds, I would just look at them, drop the knife, say, “Screw it, I can’t do this man.” Then I would probably untie the girls and tell them I just could not kill them. I guess you could threaten them not to talk.

        Every time I try to visualize doing this crime, it always ends up with me dropping the knife, saying, “Screw it, I can’t do this,” and then untying the girls and letting them go while apologizing. This stuff is not a fantasy of mine anyway. I’m not into rape fantasies and definitely not into murder fantasies. Doesn’t get me off.

      • Oh he’s good all right. Damn good. One of the best. He is very good at what he does, an expert. Even a serial. This guy is skilled enough to be a serial. That’s one reason he hasn’t been caught yet. He’s too damn good. He’s a master criminal, an evil genius.

    • He is absolutely a Bundy or Rader type, but those guys also flew under the radar for some time.

      I think he lives alone. And for sure he’s got some issues with women or females in general. Or he’s just a sexual sadist who does this to get off. Also girl or child killers are motivated by a power trip. There is a huge power differential between a child killer and his victim and this is part of what drives him.

      Those girls were probably not taken far. He could have done that if he had a camper, say, where he could keep the girls secluded in the back. No way he drove 30 miles away with two live girls in a small car and then brought two dead girls back 30 miles with searchers swarming all over. It’s preposterous. He may be a sick fuck, but he’s not an idiot.

      These guys do not tend to drive around with dead bodies in their cars. Even if they dump, the victims are often alive when taken to the dump site and probably killed upon arrival and then dumped. Sure they’re sick fucks, but most are not necros who like to drive around with dead bodies in the back seat.

      • Mer

        I agree it would be difficult to use a mustang and transport the girls. If they were in the backseat and conscious they would be kicking and thrashing around. If he did use a mustang, he may have modified it so it had a larger trunk, maybe tearing out the backseat and constructing a box connected to the trunk.

        • Can you get me a sunrise time for 2-14-17 if it can be found. Might be nice to know or at least a roundabout time anyway. The last searchers left at 2:30 AM, so he has from then until dawn to return the bodies, maybe just a few hours.

    • Mer

      The girls disappeared around 3:00 pm or a little before. They were returned 12 to 15 hours later. I doubt if he returned them after sunrise. If he had a secure way to transport them, the crime scene could be some distance away.

      • Mer

        The sun set at 6:20 pm on feb 13 and the sun rose at 7:12 on feb 14

        • Mer

          He would have avoided driving through Delphi at 4:00 am with 2 dead girls. He may have driven from the north on IN 25–the old road, not the 4 lane 25. That way he could turn on to the road to the dump site without going through town. The crime scene could be anywhere in northern Indiana.

        • How much time before 7:12 AM is it becoming somewhat light? At what time before 7:12 AM is it still dead dark?

          Wow this means Abbie lived for over 2 hours after she got dumped. With a stake in her belly! Jesus man, if that is due to sheer will to live, she deserves a medal for that right there.

        • He killed them or tried to kill them at the structure, correct? So he was driving around with what he thought were two dead girls in his car then.

        • Mer

          I drove through Delphi today. I hadn’t been there for a few years and want to correct something. The roads have changed a little with the new highway. He could have accessed the road to the cemetery from either direction on the new highway without going through town.

          The cemetery is fenced except at its SW corner. He would have had to drag the girls’ bodies less than 10 feet to get them to the ravine. That spot is common dump site. There was a couch, 2 bikes, a TV, several old tires and other stuff that people had illegally dumped there. You could literally back up to the edge of the ravine.

          The abduction site is marked private property – no trespassing. One of the roads has a locked gate; the other is just marked private road. I didn’t want to push my luck, so I didn’t try to drive thru. There is a cabinet business very close to the access into the area around the SE end of the bridge.

          The trails were hard for me to find. I had Nav and still had to ask 2 people for directions. I walked the trail to the NW end of the bridge. There is a spot nearby where a large tree has fallen. It’s just off the trail and would have been a perfect hiding spot. Unsub could have sat there against the tree and waited for his opportunity.

          The bridge itself is terrifying. I walked about 30 feet onto it and had to stop. The footing is very, very difficult. The type of thing only a teen would do and no exercise walker would attempt. It’s a quarter mile long at least. The spacing and erosion of the ties makes it very tricky.

          Assuming he had a car parked on the south side, he had to walk across the bridge to the North of Deer Creek, and hide behind that fallen tree. From there he is 40 feet from the bridge and can see back down the trail a good ways. I’m guessing once they were half way across he began following them. This would be after Libby took Abigail’s photo for Snapchat.

          My take away is that he knew the area well. First he could find his way to the bridge south of DC. He has definitely been there before. Second, he knew about the dump site at the cemetery and understood its proximity to the bridge. He planned this very well.

        • Mer

          7:12 am is the start of twilight. The sunrise was 7:40.

        • Wow! Mr. X worked for a cabinet company in Iowa and he made regularly deliveries to Delphi! He could have delivered cabinets right to that cabinet business! As he was regularly going to exactly that business, he could have familiarized himself greatly with the area. Anyway, Mr. X can be placed right in the area of the crime on a regular basis for months before the murders!

        • They were abducted on the south side, correct? He was hiding at the north side and he followed them down the bridge as they were walking north. They figured out someone was following behind them and they turned around with alarm, and Liberty took the photo. He abducted them on the bridge and took them to the south side, right? Where there’s obviously a vehicle. The cemetery’s on the north side, right?

        • The girls were walking from north to south, right. He parked his car on the south, walked to the north end of the bridge and hid. The girls walked past him going from north to south on the bridge. When they were maybe halfway across, he started following them north to south. The girls abruptly turn around and take his photo, as they are alarmed.

          He abducts them and marches them to the south end of the bridge and “down the hill” to where he has a vehicle parked somewhere on the south side. Then he takes them off somewhere to some structure where he has his fun with them for some time. The girls are raped here and he either kills or tries to kill them. He puts what he thinks are two dead girls in his car and drives back to the north side near the cemetery to dump them.

          Is this how it goes?

        • Is it somewhat light for any period of time before 7:40 AM? I do not understand dawn very well. I’m usually not up at that hour.

        • Mer

          I think that is how it happened, Robert. The girls took a photo of him on the bridge. The sun is coming from his right side, so he is walking east. Southeast across the bridge. The walk across the bridge is so intense that they may not have noticed him until he was well on his way. The SE end of the bridge is not a place that would have any vehicle or walker traffic. You have to drive onto private property to get there. If someone spotted a white mustang it would have been an adult who walked across the bridge or someone who lives in a house on that private road and saw the car drive past. I would have driven the private road, but there was a guy on a tractor working on the road. The road is gravel. I believe it loops around and passes under the bridge, however, it is not near the creek at that point, based on the satellite map I saw. It doesn’t appear to be the road that the car is parked on. There must be a secondary road that goes along the creek on the south side. The NW side of the bridge would get a lot of hikers. They would hike to the bridge and turn around. The SE end of the bridge would get no traffic, unless someone had the balls to cross the bridge.
          The police did have a crime scene on the south side. I believe this is where he got control of the girls. Got them on the ground and restrained them.
          The cemetery is on the north side. The SW corner is unfenced, and there is a steep ravine behind it. You couldn’t walk down the ravine at most places. If he did drag them a ways into the ravine, he would have dumped them over the side of the ravine, then accessed the area at the one spot that has a more gentle slope and dragged the bodies. The flat area had lots of flowers that had been placed there. It’s 10 feet from the cemetery.
          Access to the area is from county road 625W. To get there from town, you would drive east on county road 200N, the north on 625W. The cabinet business is just a few hundred yards south of 200N on highway 421, in Delphi. The only way out of the abduction site is 625W. As you head south on 625W, you come to the crossroad with 200N. Turn right(west) and you go into Delphi. He probably either turned left there, or continued on 625W to the south.
          Indiana is in the eastern time zone. If he dumped the bodies around 4am, then that would be 3am central time.
          The cemetery is secluded. You can see RLs property, but his house is several hundred yards away. It’s the only house you can see from the cemetery.

        • Mer

          If unsub did make deliveries to Delphi, he may have asked someone where he made deliveries about access to the area of abduction. It’s not a large business, so I assume he did not drive a large truck, probably a smaller box truck. Would Mr. X still have access to a box truck from his delivery job?

        • I doubt if he had personal use of that box truck. I bet he had some time off as it is 5 1/2 hour drive from Iowa to Delphi. If he is being paid by the mile, he could have layover time, or if it is by the hour, he could have a good hour lunch or dinner break in there. So he could have easily taken an hour off work every time he went into Delphi to scout around.

          My source thought that possibly Mr. X was still working for that company! She said he was definitely working for them a while ago.

          Could the bodies be seen from the general area of the cemetery or do you have to go to the edge of the ravine to see them or are they not even visible from the edge of the ravine?

        • Hello Mer my good friend. Could you please put one space between each paragraph for me. I am trying to have some site-wide formatting rules.

        • Mer

          You would need to walk to the edge to see them. Just driving through the cemetery would not allow you to see this area

        • So they were down the slope into the ravine, then?

  6. AB

    I have always wondered about the possibility of it being a truck driver or someone who delivers things to the town or nearby plants that is familiar with the town yet goes unnoticed. I don’t know, but it’s just a thought that has been on my mind since early in the investigation.

    Also, I’m assuming they’ve looked into other male relatives of Ron Logan. I noticed there was a Logan on the sex registry in Indianapolis who looks VERY similar to the picture of the guy on the bridge. But nephews, cousins, etc could have grown up playing and exploring and hunting on his grounds and would know the area VERY well and also would know Ron’s whereabouts or if he was going to be home.

    • Mr. X., my POI, lives 5.5 hours away in another state but recently had a truck driving job where he made very regular deliveries to Delphi.

      And he’s one sick fuck, too. I believe we have to quit looking at normal people like Mr. Logan. This guy is a sociopath, but he blends in. Most people who know him think he’s all right. But wives or ex-wives, children or stepchildren and some people who know him very well have come to know him well enough to see through his mask of sanity. Some of these people think he is a sick fuck. They probably think he is a sociopath, and they suspect him of having some sexual oddities too.

  7. Neferbunny

    They should release more of the tape. It seems incredible that this guy hasn’t been identified and arrested. Or maybe he has been identified and they are watching him, waiting for a reason to bring him in so they can build a strong case. Could they make a case on voice recognition alone?

    When you say that Abby was the target, do you think he had been stalking her for awhile online and somehow knew she would be there that day?

    • Garry Palin

      I firmly believe they have talked to this guy, and are watching him. Very few of these guys get away over the long run. Only guy that did get away was (1) guy, and that’s the Zodiac killer. Zodiac probably died, or they would have caught him as well, and there was no DNA at that time.

      This guy could be a BTK type guy-“no record”- has a wife and family, blends into the community and looks normal-just like Dennis Rader. If that’s the case here, his DNA won’t be on file and it’s a waiting game, or wait for him to make a mistake. He’s already made (3) and that’s they have a rough picture, know his height ( 5’10) know how he walks, his shoe size, and “his voice”. This guy has to be shaking in his boots now. Not to bright a guy really-especially dumping the bodies at night- the FBI could have had “snipers” in the dark waiting for him- “no flashlights”

      It really bugs me to hear people say he’s so smart, and how he masterminded this crime. He’s a dummy, and already fucked up a lot, and left valuable clues, whereas a bright man would not have done this in broad daylight, let his photograph be taken with the video, and then take them back at night. He has “more balls than brains”. In my mind he’s a dummy, and he’ll be caught in short order. If his DNA was in Codis, we wouldn’t be writing about this-“he’ d be behind bars.” This was a cowardly gutless act, and it offends me greatly, when young girls cannot grow up and be innocent young girls, and build their imagination, and have some fun. Our world has, and is becoming a different place, and this pathetic loser totally disgusts me, He should pay with his life- just like Bundy, in the electric chair. The long arm of the law “always wins” and he’ll be caught !!! – “mark my words.”

      • Many serial killers have gotten away with their crimes. A recent one went to his grave before five of his murders were solved. They were not solved until 14 years after his death. Go down the list of unsolved crimes in any state and you will see many psycho rape murders of women type crimes than have not been solved.

        And there are quite a few serials who have yet to be caught. The Hitchhiker Killer in Santa Cruz is one. There are lots of others. It is not so easy to solve psycho killer rape murders. The killer does not know the victim, often travels a long way to commit the crime and often there are few to no witnesses.

        This guy’s already damn good simply because he’s gotten away with it this long. If he were an idiot or a fool, he would have been caught quite quickly. A lot of rape murders are solved very quickly. Those are the idiots. If you get away with it for any length of time at all, you are damn good. And if he’s a serial, he’s damn good too. All serial killers are master criminals and evil geniuses.

        Just because someone is smart or good at accomplishing some task does not mean that they are not evil. Evil geniuses are still evil.

      • Bryan king22

        I think he had a cellphone signal jammer which would explain his confidence despite the fact ther was two of them with a phone likely on both girls

        The girl could have tried to call 911 noticed the call wasn’t going through so she did the next best thing which was to use an app or whatever she used to record audio/video (which wouldn’t have been affected by the jammer) he might have deleted the video/picture/audio and could maybe explain why the video is such a low resolution because maybe it was slightly corrupted and of an inferior quality once forensic recovered the deleted data from the phone

        Not sure if the data was deleted or not but right from the start I had this strange feeling that he took his time and we confident they couldn’t call for help

        These days you can get a signal jammer online (illegally but still obtainable) from China that’s the size of a pack of cigarettes but one with a pretty decent range would likely be 8 inches high, 4 inches wide, and 2-3 inches thick

        • Lotus

          I have read online that Liberty texted one of her friends while they on the trail, telling the friend they were being followed by a man. If texts went through, a call would also go through, as far as I know. That is, unless she had only data service on her plan, rather than a plan with calls. Some teens get plans that do not include calls since teens tend to prefer texting and taking pictures. However, I have not read anywhere that explained what sort of plan Liberty had on her phone.

        • Kim

          I have kids, and I have wondered the same thing. it’s sad but I think some in that age group are much more adept at snapping pics and texting than calling police. I think it’s familiarity, their first instinct is to tell a friend; it makes them feel safe.

          9-1-1 may have been an afterthought or not on speed dial/familiar on their keyboard. Just another (very sad) thought.

        • Lotus

          I think you are right, Kim. Even now with people giving tips, police are having to tell people to deliver their tips to the police, not to social media.

    • I don’t know about voice recognition. Several people have already said that they know for sure the person who has that voice. It’s an ex husband, or ex boyfriend or a guy who lives nearby, or whatever.

      Obviously all 4-5 of those people could not have been the man whose voice we hear on the tape. Voice recognition evidence is not a whole lot better than eyewitness evidence.

      On the second question, no idea whether he stalked her beforehand or not.

      • Garry Palin

        I see your points Robert, and your way more knowledgeable about these types of Psychotic Sociopaths than I am. When I saw the picture of Libby in the hat, and how young and innocent she looked, this crime really struck a chord with me. When I was younger growing up in the 70’s this was relatively “uncommon” but there were some. (Charles Manson etc) Also there were very few homosexuals, at least out in the open, and there were no transgender people.( not that I have disdain for them) This goes for I grew up, but maybe in Liberal California it was different for you.

        I just wonder if this escalating type violent crimes against women, has anything to do with “feminism” and men feeling slighted, and emasculated and this is their way of rebelling against women. I think there may be a lot of truth to this.

        I would bet in the 1950’s where divorce was uncommon, and families were mostly all the patriarchal type, when men were the head of the household, I think people and families were a lot happier than in today’s world, even though they didn’t have as much material wealth. Maybe you should do a blog on that subject, as your truly a student of human nature.

        And yes – this Delphi murder really pissed me off !!! even though I’ve heard of lot’s of others, this one really grabbed me. I do think they will get this guy, but it may take a long time. He won’t be able to stop !!!

      • Lotus

        Robert, what your observation about the voice says to me is that the suspect is someone from that area. It is a very distinct type of speech that is from that locale. When I first heard the recording, I noticed it sounds exactly like the sheriff who is investigating the case. It is a tone and manner of speaking very common to that exact area.

        • Kim

          Agree with your assessment of the voice. I think the voice is most chilling. Tense and clipped. In a hurry but authoritative with the girls. It sounds ready to spring into action. Being a Local fits as only a local would know schools were out that Monday, hence better chance to find younger victim on the trails.

          But if he’s local, someone Must recognize the voice. Someone serves/sees him in a diner, store, truck stop etc. I’m assuming this hunter is a loner, lives alone and hates women (certainly true based on his monstrous act), but, still someone had to recognize the pic, gait, voice. Releasing height/weight data (can calculate ~height relative to bridge width) would have helped; not sure why LE didn’t? Even though OJ wasn’t convicted based on a glove seems the pic/voice data is excellent evidence here.

        • Expert said 5’10, 180.

  8. Magneto

    “Finally detectives arrive at enough information to file a case against someone, but a lot of that is not factual either. They believe he did the crime. They believe that this, that, or the other happened with no way to really prove it”

    I read that 80 percent of convictions are due to the person confessing. That means that if the person wouldn’t confess, there is no way the cops could ever prove he committed the crime. That’s why cops do that whole beat down shit and lock you in a room and interogate you and try to scare the shit out of you, to get you to confess.

    If you simply keep your mouth shut and DO NOT SAY ANYTHING, then they cannot do jack shit to you.

    I knew one guy who had been a hitman for some mafia family and the FBI was interrogating him and trying to get him to confess but he remained ice cool and just said he didn’t know anything. Eventually they let him walk out.

    The police are nothing but a bunch of terrorists who will try to terrorize you into confessing. Even if you’re innocent, they will still try to get you to confess. Cops are fucking pigs and they don’t give a shit if you did it or not. They just want as many convictions as possible to make themselves look good on record.

    THE POLICE ARE NOT YOUR FUCKING FRIENDS. Should you ever get arrested or accused of something? Refuse to say a single goddamn word except “I request my lawyer”.

    Another interesting fact- a large number of murders in America are linked to satanic cults. That means that the police are also most likely involved since a lot of them are Freemasons and therefore they will try to pin the murder on some innocent person.

    The police are truly the worst terrorists on earth. The police murder more people than every single terrorist organization combined.

  9. Lela

    Robert, I love reading your updates!

    Do you think its possible that there is an underground shelter on the property or somewhere near the property? It had to be someone who knew the land well. He had a plan from the beginning…a well thought out plan.

    If they have DNA, why can’t they produce an image like they did for the April Tinsley case? Parabon Snapshot created a software program that created a face of April Tinsley’s killer. I wonder if they can do the same for this monster.

    • I sort of doubt that there is an underground shelter on the property, but anything is possible.

      About the DNA image, I am not so sure about that. They are ambivalent about even whether or not they have DNA.

    • Great! If you love the updates, why don’t you donate? The site runs on donations and I am low income, so I definitely need the money.


    • Mer

      LE said in the first week that they had sent in DNA samples, but that doesn’t mean they found anyone’s DNA but the girls. It would be standard procedure to obtain samples from the girl’s bodies and to scour the crime scene for anything that might contain DNA. I think they don’t have DNA from Unsub, but want potential suspects to think they may have DNA. They are obtaining DNA from suspects. LE does not want us to know whether they have DNA or not. Which means they don’t.

  10. Lela

    PLEASE Delete this comment about previous owners.

  11. Garry Palin

    If the FBI had the killer(s) DNA, I would think they wouldn’t tell anyone. If I was running the investigation, I’d rather the suspects ” did not know” LE had the DNA needed to convict.

    If the killers knew that their DNA was on file, they or he, just might want to take off to Mexico, or some South American country. I’d want the killer to feel safe, and comfortable that he’s gotten away with a crime. Therefore he would stay around and be easy to find. I would want a lot of time to watch their movements, and collect DNA from their coffee cups and drinks, cigarette butts,and they would have no idea, they were being watched.

    Ig the killers knew for sure LE had the DNA- I think they may just want to visit another country-“for good” With that being said, what advantage does it give LE to tell the media they have DNA ??? none really- so keep it quiet and you have time to hunt them down.

    • Mer

      You may be right. I hope you are

    • Cops cannot force you to give DNA. They can ask you, but they have the right to turn down the request. And you can’t get a search warrant to search inside someone’s body, which you are doing when you get DNA.

      Here in California, they do not take DNA if you are arrested, if you are convicted of a misdemeanor, or if you are acquitted of misdemeanor or felony. They only take DNA from convicted felons here, which is as it should be.

      • Lotus

        Investigators follow potential suspects around all the time waiting for the person to toss a drink cup or cigarette butt. DNA can be extracted from saliva, sweat, skin, etc. If the amount of the sample is very small, the DNA can be amplified.

  12. Pabba

    You can apply to the court to get a buccal swab if a suspect does not consent in NJ. Simple cotton swab from inside cheek is not invasive.

    If perp previously convicted of indictable crime, DNA profile already in Codis national data bank. However it is clear that any DNA recovered from girls does not match anyone in Codis, or it does not generate full profile. So any registered sex offender is not a suspect if police have a full DNA profile. Minor offenses do not require suspect to provide DNA. If there are mixed samples from girls, it is difficult to identify unknown suspect.

    I am hoping and praying for justice for these girls.

  13. Stephanie Figuerado

    Robert..why is nobody talking about the puppy in the carrier peeking out of suspects jacket? Very obvious if you look closely.

      • Dlux

        A lot of folks have jumped on board with a puppy in his jacket theory. 2 thoughts I have:

        If he does have a puppy, who cares? I don’t think this would be relevant at all.
        It would appear what everyone thinks is a puppy is in fact his scarf or hat flap.

        With someone so cold and calculated, why would he carry a puppy that would only act as a nuisance and get in the way. Of course my detractors will say it was used to luer the two young girls. I don’t know, just doesn’t seem to fit here.

        • Lotus

          There is no puppy in the photo. Period. If there were a puppy in the photo, the police would have said so, because that would give a huge clue to the man’s identity. But there is no puppy in the photo.

  14. Linda

    Did you see the video published of the news team talking to Ron Logan? Check out his clothing..

    • Dlux

      Linda, why would someone go to all the trouble of disguising themselves and covering all of their tracks just to dump the bodies on their own property? Ron Logan as a suspect never seemed more than just a media driven scapegoat.

    • Mer

      I have seen the videos. He did a few interviews with news people. I don’t think it is the same clothing.

      I think the searches of Ron Logan’s property are a sign that LE has no good lead or idea where the girls were taken.

      • Oh no, there is definitely a bloody crime scene. I can tell you that much. And it does appear to be some sort of a structure because they say he wrote an initial all over the scene. If there was some initial letter written all over the scene, it must be a structure of some sort. They thought he was marking it as his own in some way.

        • Tina

          Who All knew the girls were there? Who dropped them off in such a place ?

        • Mer

          I don’t know how i missed this posting–and it’s from April 4.

        • Kellie

          How do you know about the bloody crime scene with his mark on it? And I’m wondering did libby get away and come back for her friend.?

        • The initial written all over the crime scene? Source was LE.

          No but they said she had 4-5 opportunities to escape but she decided to stay by the side of her friend to the end.

          Damn that’s sad, man.

  15. Bryan king22

    My personal theory although I admit I am by far less familiarized with this case than you clearly appear to be but I still have this feeling that one of the girls had a family member that molested one or both of them growing up and maybe for some reason the man started to worry that one of the girls would speak up so either that family member who did the molesting or possibly a close friend of that man (who could have possibly been involved to some extent with molesting) was asked to close up loose ends

    A friend on the family or family member would have known where the girls were and could have used this info to provide to a third party to murder girls

    Someone’s child molesters will get jealous when the victim gets pregnant by their boyfriend/husband etc* and have been known to snap by murdering unborn child/future mother so when I read she could be pregnant I thought that could fit

    I also thought it was interesting that one of the girls had enough insight to take pictures/videos/recording of the suspect but didn’t bother to call 911

    The reason I found that interesting was because of the bulge in the pocket although that could very well be a trick on the eyes due to the resolution, lighting/shadows, and the overall photo quality but the bulge reminded me of a device that interrupts cellular devices by jamming their signal and they can get a pretty good range on them even when they’re a portable type

    That would also explain why she resorted to taking video/audio recordings instead of calling 911 which would not have worked if she tried with a signal jammer in the vicinity

    I’m going to read your page in it’s entirety because I just skimmed it and sorry I’m advance if anyone thinks my post comes off as insensitive because it’s just personal speculation based on nothing really

    • Bryan king22

      Oh yeah and if it’s not the family the other thing I was thinking was maybe there is a truck stop somewhere close by (not sure about the area/town) and this guy could have possibly added these girls on social media and saw them post pictures of where they were and popped in idk but part of me thinks the suspect could have had a fake social media account and targeted them when he recognized the secluded place they were in

  16. Kellie

    I have an idea of how they were left so clean.. and to me there are so many places that could accomodate this style of killing.. very interesting and good for me because a few of the visions I had received were basically confirmed by your blog..

  17. concentrate on this down the hill guy

    the thing is the girls were dearly loved by their families and anyone would be proud to have these girls as daughters. law enforcement has a lot of evidence and they are going to get the killer. the killer will try and always blame the victim just the way the perps always do. these girls just shined with living life to the fullest. just looking at them and you see hope and everything good. when truth comes to light all the rumors fade and we see how easy it is to get carried away and get bogged down. we just have to give the law in all its forms and even when it seems theres nothing but blocks give them the space and time to get it right. they want to make sure this guy conviction is full truth and theres no way he can weasel out of his crime. concentrate on the killer some one has to know this guy.

  18. Have you researched the murder of elyse pahler,interesting.

  19. Chris

    I don’t know if you’re still keeping up with this but what are your thoughts on Danial Nations involvement. I know you said you felt the person was in his 60s based on what he was wearing but I think the clothing could also indicate income status—perhaps he could only afford what was given to him or what he could find at the thrift store which typically carries outdated clothing. The fanny Pack is definitely 80s but I’ve found myself carrying one when I go to Amusement parks and they’ve regained popularity so I’m thinking it was an item of convenience as opposed to something he was used to from his era. When I read about Mr. Nations background he seemed generally angry at everyone with no age or gender discrimination. He seems equally violent and sexually motivated.

  20. spacewalk


    Have you compared the Seymour Indiana case involving 44 year old Tim Woodard shooting his neighbor’s dog 60 times, 2 months after Abby & Libby were murdered?

    Please look at the mug shot of Woodard and compare to those 2 police composites.

    Startling resemblance, physically and psychically.

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