Updated March 14: Sexually-Motivated Double Homicide in Delphi, Indiana, February 13, 2017: Liberty German and Abigail Williams

Most of the red-hot discussion about this case has moved over to the private password-protected forum. On this forum you can discuss people’s full names, addresses, phone numbers, you name it – you can accuse anyone of anything, and you don’t have to worry about the threat of a defamation or libel lawsuit. Furthermore, the forum is rigorously policed to keep out trolls, spies, stalkers, and other disruptors. None of your comments will appear on Internet search engines – you can say anything you want under any name you want without leaving a permanent record on the Net. A vast amount of mostly unreleased photos, videos, and data is stored and discussed here. All of our material is turned over to LE, and my understanding is that LE monitor the private forum. At this moment, we have ~150 Websleuths working on the case. Instructions for joining the private forum is here.

Note to commenters 3-21-17: I will not allow the words pedophile, pedophilic or pedophilia to be used in connection with this crime because there is no pedophilia involved in this crime, and there is no evidence that the offender is a pedophile. These girls are too old for that. You may use it if you think Unsub committed other crimes with younger girls somewhere else.

The perpetrator could certainly be seen as a hebephile, although he’s not necessarily one. If you want to refer to the nature of the offense, use the word hebephilic instead of pedophilic. If you wish to refer to Unsub’s paraphilia, please refer to him as a hebephile and not a pedophile.

Note 2 to commenters: I am really getting sick and tired of saying this, but most of the material below is made up of rumors and my own opinions and theories. None of that is represented as fact. The only thing that is represented as fact as statements sourced from LE or the media.

And incidentally, the way I wrote up the case is precisely how detectives work a case. Detectives do not work cases using the scientific method. If they did, they would hardly solve one case. It’s more “We believe this for now…this is true for now…at the moment, this is what we think happened…we believe…” They are throwing out endless theories about what really happened and accepting them as (temporary) facts. They are then continuously revising and throwing out theories and creating new ones.

Being  a detective is about being wrong. Not just once, but being wrong over and over so many times your head will want to come off. If you can’t handle being wrong, then detective work is surely not for you. Finally detectives arrive at enough information to file a case against someone, but a lot of that is not factual either. They believe he did the crime. They believe that this, that, or the other happened with no way to really prove it – it’s just what they conjecture.

If he is convicted, then the theory that he did the crime is validated as fact, but I am not sure what other evidence is. And even court decisions are not scientific fact because they get overturned all the time. There are not a whole lot of 100% certain, clear scientific facts in LE work, detective work on the judicial system itself. A good portion of the decisions made turn out to be theories, temporary but unstable facts, beliefs, hunches and guesswork, all represented as fact in the court.

If you have issues with theories, opinions and what not, just quit reading and get the Hell off my site right now and never come back. I am really getting sick and tired of this BS.

New update March 23: Updated March 23: Sexually-Motivated Double Homicide in Delphi, Indiana, February 13, 2017: Liberty German and Abigail Williams

Huge update with major changes in my analysis of the case.

Sexually-motivated double homicide of two teenage girls, one 13 and the other 14. For some background on this heartbreaking case, see here.

This is an update of the case as of March 14, 2017. There’s not a lot of new information here, but there is a new photo. Also I listed sources for each bit of information because I am getting tired of idiot haters complaining about this stuff.

How Do I Know All This Stuff?

First: How do I know all this stuff?

Question: “Robert, How Do You Know So Much about Serial Killers, Pedophiles, Hebephiles and Sexual Sadists?”

I have done a lot of research on this case including released information, rumors and borderline areas such as cryptic statements by LE. I have also spoken to people close to the case, including those close to the search party and law enforcement investigation of this case. I also spoke to other sleuthers and people interested in the case. Some were associated with missing persons groups. This is the source of some of my material. Other information is derived from my own theorizing about the case. This includes offender profiling.

So there’s the source of all of the information.

My Musings on This Case

Rumors state that Libby was killed on 2-13, possibly pretty quickly, and Abby died or 2-14. Although this is still somewhat up in the air, I believe this is correct. The published obits state those dates. This has been confirmed to me by sources close to law enforcement. There is a rumor that the families chose those dates as death dates, but that would apply only to funerals, not obits. Obit info would come straight from coroner’s report. Therefore, the coroner’s report had to state different death dates. See below for more evidence that the girls died on different days. Sources: People close to LE, obituaries, and funeral notices.

This was not a crime of opportunity. He planned this very well. He plans his crimes with the utmost meticulousness. That is why he is armed with the gun and disguising himself. Source: My speculation based on the nature of the offense and the obvious skill involved.

As of yet, there is no good evidence to suggest that the girls may have been catfished from social media. Original rumor relied upon an odd statement by LE very early ion the case, “Parents need to be very careful of what their kids are doing on social media.” Adding to that were suggestive remarks from Libby’s friends about odd activities on her Instagram page. Bottom line is there is just no good evidence for this at the moment. Sources: Cryptic comments from LE, suggestive remarks from Libby’s friends about odd activity on her Instagram account.

Unsub is 5’10, 180 pounds with a bit of a middle aged man’s stomach paunch. Source: Expert on CNN, paunch obvious in photo.

Unsub’s age is ~60. At the very least, that style of pants is outdated and nowadays is only worn by men over 40 in that area. Presence of fanny pack also indicates an older man. They were popular in the late 1980’s, but I am told that hardly anyone wears them anymore except for some older guys like me. And Unsub. Well, we two have something in common anyway. Curiously, my age is almost exactly the same as his. Sources: LE stated that he had a fanny pack. My estimate on age. Info on fanny packs and jeans style by people looking at the photos.


Excellent new drawing of Unsub from an LE artist.

LE believes that Unsub came from out of state to do this crime. This is my theory also based on my POI. I believe that Unsub drove 350 miles over 5 1/2 hours to do this crime. I believe this is in part why he has not been caught yet. He doesn’t even live in the same state! Source: Recent remark by Indiana State Police quoted in media, my theory based on my favorite POI.

Clearly Unsub has a pistol, a .45 or 911. The pistol was holstered to his right side, which means he is left-handed. The outline of the pistol can clearly be seen in the photo released of the man. A photo exists showing the pistol outlined with graphic software. Assuming that is a pistol, and it is, then Unsub is left-handed. Source: Gun is obviously visible in photograph. Left-handedness concluded from the holstered gun pointing backwards on the right side.


Photo clearly shows a semiautomatic .911 or 45 mm handgun holstered on his right, which means he is lefthanded. That’s either a gun, or I’m a monkey’s uncle. I can’t believe so many people are saying that is not a gun. It’s as clear as air.

Unsub may be trying to disguise himself in the photos by using a hat and a scarf. Source: LE statement.

Unsub is wearing a hat, a jacket with a hoodie and blue jeans in the photo. In my opinion, the hat is a camouflage hunting cap with padded ear muffs. Unsub is overdressed for the weather. He seems to have layers of clothing on. He has almost his entire body covered with clothing.

Part of this is no doubt to disguise himself, but another reason is so he will have few exposed areas of his body where the girls could leave scratch marks if the girls fight back hard, although they still could scratch up his face pretty well. Source: LE statements about clothing. Statement about type of cap is my conjecture from the photo. Reason for being heavily dressed is common sense for an offender preparing to commit rape and murder.

Fanny pack probably where he kept his murder kit. Sources: LE statement quoted in the media. Murder kit is my conjecture. What else is in there? A first aid kit? Come on.


GIF image of Unsub photos run together.

There has been much talk about whether or not there were two murderers or one. It is not yet proven that there were two killers, and LE is leaning towards the theory that there was one killer. However, even LE themselves described the perpetrators of this crime as “the murderers.” And from the very start, they referred to Unsub as a participant instead of a suspect. Participant is almost never used unless LE thinks there is more than one killer.

Police are now walking this back by saying that it’s standard procedure to assume maybe more than one killer, but they’re lying. It isn’t. There was some specific reason why they thought there were two killers in this case, and we do not know what that reason was. At any rate, they seem to be walking the two killers theory back too, and they are leaning towards one killer. Source: Very strange LE statements.

There are different stories about when the girls died. Libby seems to have died very quickly on the afternoon of 2-13. Abbie may have died at this time too as per a family statement. This is a weak rumor. Yet from the very start there were rumors about Abbie lingering on. The first said that Abbie was still alive when found and died on the way to the hospital. Another said that she was still alive when found and died on the scene. These two are also weak rumors.

A third and stronger rumor said that Abbie’s body was still warm when found and that the medical examiner concluded that she survived the attack but died later of hypothermia. Making this odd is new evidence that the entire crime occurred on the afternoon of 2-13 and it was all over in an hour or two. If this is true then somehow, Abbie lingered on and stayed alive for ~20 hours after a homicidal attack on her. It’s hard to believe and devastatingly sad if true that she lingered this long, but perhaps it is testimony to some special spirit the girl had to maintain life at all costs.

Who knows. If the body was warm, this means that Abbie died of hypothermia no earlier than 9:30 AM, as the bodies were discovered at 12:30 PM, and bodies only stay warm for 2-3 hours after death. This means that Abbie was certainly still alive when the search started at 9:30 AM. This third stronger rumor seems to be the best analysis right now. I know this sounds awful, but to me this is the saddest and cruelest part of this whole mad crime. That girl lingering for 20 hours. Good God.  Source: Family members, people close to LE.

There are rumors that the search party stated the bodies were moved in the course of this crime. The searchers stated that the girls had to have been moved, taken away and then returned to be dumped because the search party covered the same ground in both searches. The locale where they were found on 2-14 had previously been searched on 2-13.

The problem with this story is that it appears to be incorrect. That side of the creek was not even searched on 2-13 because they had not yet had permission from the landowner. That area was only searched the morning of 2-14. Also these poor girls were covered with leaves, which makes Abbie’s heroic quest to live an even more remarkable testament to her profound spirit.

The best analysis now seems to be that the murders and rapes happened soon after the girls were abducted, not long after Unsub ordered them “Go down the hill.” The entire south side of the creek was roped off as a crime scene, so no doubt this was where the girls were raped and murdered sometime after 3 PM 2-13. So why no noise? No one heard? How do you rape and murder two girls in broad daylight without anyone hearing?

Anyway, after the girls were raped and homicidally attacked, apparently the bodies were somehow moved across the stream, once again without anyone seeing, to the north side of the creek where the bodies were dumped. Source: People close to the search party, people close to the case. Common sense from LE talk implying that the murders occurred very soon after Unsub’s voice recording.

There is indeed a voice recording of Unsub saying, “Go down the hill.” This was recorded heroically by Libby by turning on the recorder on her phone as the girls were being abducted. The sound recording of the crime is said to be much longer than what was released. It has also been implied, terrifyingly, that the sound recording is actually the recording of the rapes and murders. That probably makes it one of the worst sound recordings made in a crime case in some time. The last one coming close to this would have to be the recordings from the Tool Box Murders in 1979. Source: People close to the case.

Anyway, I can now reveal part of what is on the unreleased portion of the tape. After Unsub says, “Go down the hill,” at some point later, the next thing we hear is both girls screaming. Good Lord. It’s no wonder LE doesn’t want to release that tape. Source: A person close to the families.

The place where the girls were found was described as pristine by members of the search party. The site of a recent homicide, especially a bloody and brutal one, never looks pristine. Just forget it. So we must conclude that the site where the girls were found was a body dump site and they were murdered on the other side of the creek. Sources: People close to the search party.

A prior theory of mine that was adopted by many others was based upon the insistence of search party members that the girls had to have been moved because the place where they were found on 2-14 was already searched on 2-13. First, even if it were true, the girls were covered with leaves so they could have easily been overlooked in the dark.

This theory was quite complex and involved the girls surviving the initial abduction despite LE statements implying that they did not.

Problem one. It also needed the girls to have been placed in a vehicle and taken somewhere to some structure where the killer(s) did their deeds. What structure? Where? How were they not seen?

Problem two. And it implied killers idiotically and implausibly returning to the scene of the abduction to dump the bodies, possibly on 2-14. And those bodies would have had to have been dumped right under the nose of Ron Logan as he resided on his property.

Problem three. Worst of all, it seemed to have needed the search area to be kept under surveillance  from 3 PM 2-13 until 2-14 2:30 AM. How did this happen? Who was the lookout?

This washed-out theory had so many bizarre problems with it that I am glad we have the new theory of the killings and dumpings both occurring on the afternoon of 2-13 soon after the abductions. This ties it all together so much better. Not to mention Occam’s Razor of course. Source: People close to the case, my own theorizing.

There is talk of a Ford Mustang that can be barely seen in  lower left of the photo of Abbie on the bridge below the bridge. It is very hard to make out, but it could well be a vehicle. How it was determined to be a Ford Mustang and a white one at that is not known. It is not yet known how this vehicle was involved in the case. The best analyses are that the girls were not placed in this car but instead that this car was either simply in the area for some innocuous reason or that the car was involved in the crime but in some other way than placement or transporting of the girls. Perhaps that is Unsub’s vehicle. Who knows?

The road that it is parked on  is a very little used road that almost no one has even heard of. It appears to have been a road used by workers to maintain  the bridge. Access to it is quite difficult and involves some convoluted twists and turns of road, not to mention that part of the access is via a private driveway. It does seem very odd to me that that car is in that location right before the girls got abducted. I am thinking that that car does not belong there at all and that it is significant to the case in some unknown way. Source: Sleuths analyzing the photo of Libby on the bridge, people close to the case.


The vehicle can barely be seen circled in blue, or maybe you can’t make it out at all. This photo has now been enhanced.


The vehicle is still hard to make out in this enhanced photo, but if you look very carefully, you might be able to see a car. Or maybe you won’t. Squint and try your luck.

Libby’s grandfather who raised her made an odd statement, “I know Libby. She put up one Hell of a fight.” The grandfather has been cleared. However, he is correct that Libby put up a strong battle. The reason that the grandfather said she put up a wild fight is probably because that is what it says in the medical report. If she fought hard, there will be talk of defensive wounds and maybe DNA under her nails.

The condition of her body at the funeral adds weight to the notion that she fought back very hard and sustained many defensive wounds because she had many small wounds on her body and face. In that case, Unsub may have scratch marks. Source: Media reports and statements from people at the funeral. Common sense that the only way the grandfather would known that she fought hard was if he saw the coroners’ report.

I believe the gun obviously holstered on the right under the jacket of Unsub was probably used to control the girls. He also got them to keep quiet, probably with the gun. However, I do not believe the gun was used to kill the girls. It would have made too much noise. Rumors that this was not a gun crime are correct. Source: Common sense that the gun would be the best way to control the girls and common sense that a gun crime would have involved audible gunshots. No gunshots were heard, so doubtless there was no gun fired in this crime.

There is a rumor that both girls had their throats slit. This is a strong rumor. Funerals were open casket, and both girls had scarves covering their necks, more to cover something up than as clothing. This adds weight to the theory that their throats were slit. There are two rumors about the knife attack on one of the girls. A weak rumor says she was decapitated. The strong rumor says she was nearly decapitated. A decapitation would have been hard for a funeral director to hide and both girls had their heads on at the funeral. Of the two rumors, the strong one looks better, but we don’t even know if the girl’s wound was that grievous.

The girl who suffered this grievous wound must have been poor Libby because Abbie’s wound was apparently mild enough to survive for 20 hours after the attack. No one can survive a near-decapitation. Even the incredibly determined Abbie, who I am starting to think is Supergirl, could not have survived that. Sources: Rumors, very first reports of the crime from family members. Later confirmation from people close to LE. Statements by people at the funeral.

And now I have some even worse news to report. A new rumor says that both girls were beaten so badly in their faces that they were nearly unrecognizable. This rumor may well be true, but at least Abbie was fixed up pretty good in her face for the funeral, so one wonders how a funeral director could have covered up such devastating wounds. Source: An apparently knowledgeable and trustworthy female commenter from Delphi on a website.

This offense was clearly sexually motivated and it seems quite clear that sexual assault occurred in the course of the crime. About this, there are two rumors. A weak rumor said that Libby was found clothed and Abbie was nude. This rumor has logical problems as it is generally assumed that both girls were raped. So Unsub raped her, killed her, and then thoughtfully put her clothes back on? Come on. The second rumor that both girls were found nude and raped is stronger and seems to be better.  Sources: Very first reports of the crime from family members and later confirmation from people close to LE, general rumors.

The girls’ clothing was found in the creek. This was no doubt an attempt by Unsub to destroy any DNA evidence. Source: Statements from reporter at the scene. Common sense indicates that this was an attempt to destroy DNA in the case.

Ron Logan, the property owner where the girls were found, was in Lafayette, Indiana on 2-13, and Unsub may have known he would not be there, but there is no proof of this. How he may have known this, I have no idea. Source: Media.

There is now a lot of talk that Ron Logan or perhaps his son were involved in this crime. This always struck me as unlikely, and Logan was quickly cleared. Now sometimes cleared suspects are later re-evaluated, accused of being culpable and arrested. But that’s pretty rare. And some of the people who cleared him were the FBI, making a false clearance even less likely.

Ron Logan was detained last weekend on a probation violation stemming from a drunk driving arrest earlier. The 77 year old Logan reportedly has a drinking problem. This arrest has sparked wild rumors that Logan was the killer of those girls. He never struck me as the type and he’s a bit old for a murdering rapist. Logan’s son is also being accused, but I am not impressed by the  weak evidence against him. Neither man strikes me as a likely POI. Source: Rumors, sleuths, media interviews, news reports, my own analytical skills.

There has been much talk of Jimmy Duvall possibly being Unsub. Duvall committed a serious crime against an 11 year old girl quite some time ago when he was 23. A month before, he had committed a similar offense. The judge said he had a “character disorder.” This typically means a personality disorder and used in a case like this, it surely means that has Antisocial Personality Disorder. In other words, Duvall is a sociopath or a psychopath. He served a good ~25 years for this crime and was released ~8 years ago.

He has apparently not offended since he has been released. Mr. Duvall was taken in for questioning early in this case and was asked to give a DNA sample. He then returned to his job at the auto plant. Rumors say that Duvall took 2-13 off as the first day off work in years and has since disappeared.

Neither rumor is correct. Yes, Duvall took 2-13. After all, it was his day off, why wouldn’t he? And he has not actually disappeared. My understanding is that he is at home taking a sick leave.

His creepy Facebook page was the subject of much discussion. It portrayed a man obsessed with evil, death, the Devil, murder and other pleasant themes. He also seemed to be a man struggling very had against his antisocial urges. No doubt he has a paraphilia, and of course he is sociopathic. But the best analysis is that LE has cleared Duvall of participation in this crime.  Sources: Rumors, court cases, sex offender files, Facebook pages.

Three other posts in this series:

Updated March 9: Profile of the Evansdale-Delphi Serial Killer

The Case for Unsub Involvement in Both the Delphi and Evansdale Double Murders

The Case for Linking the Delphi Murders with the Evansdale Murders

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Filed under Crime, Criminology, Iowa, Law enforcement, Mental Illness, Midwest, Pedophilia, Personality Disorders, Psychology, Psychopathology, Regional, Serial Killers, Sex, Sociology, Sociopathy, USA

65 responses to “Updated March 14: Sexually-Motivated Double Homicide in Delphi, Indiana, February 13, 2017: Liberty German and Abigail Williams

  1. Rich_M

    I agree with many of your assertions but others not so much.
    One, why would he move the bodies across the creek only to move them back again? The South side of the creek has a much more wooded area. It would become exceeding difficult to move Libby across the creek if stories that she weighed 200# are true. It would seem that he would leave the bodies at the kill site and get away…staying there and moving bodies across the creek only serves to add to the likelihood that he would be captured.

    • Forget it. Dump site was pristine and I believe it was across the creek from the kill site. Kill was on south side of the creek.

    • Kelly Hawkins

      If she lived 1/8 of a mile it was someone that was watching. % of the time it’s always someone they know or a friend of a family. I mean who knew they were going to be there? Oddly, a sick asshole just waiting on the hike trail? Someone knew those girls were going hiking and knew the time n place to look for them upon crossing that bridge. I say question who was to pick them up n question all family friends.

  2. Rich_M

    There is nothing to be gained by moving them to the other side and everything to lose. Its as if he made it easier for them to be found.

    • The roped off yellow tape area is on the south side. Obviously this is the kill site. The bodies were found across the creek on the north side at a pristine dump site with no signs of being the site of a homicide. I mean that’s what happened. They were not killed on the north side. They were killed on the south side.

  3. Rich_M

    I understand Robert as I have been following the case as well. My question is why kill them on the south side (which I agree he did) and move them to the north side onto someone’s private property? That is the part that makes no sense.

    He could have simply moved them deeper in to the woods on the south side and walked the long way around to his vehicle, which I believe was parked in the back of the cemetery so as not to draw attention to it.

    I do appreciate your commentary as it provides a good sounding board for my own train of though on the case. Keep up the good work!

    • Bro, the more I learn about this case, the less I know about it and so many things about this case didn’t make sense in the past and still don’t make sense, but most nasty homicide cases are like that. The accusations against the various suspects are like that too. Go read about all the suspects of the Zodiac killings. Detectives have an impossible job. I have no idea how they even do this.

      This case has me so confused.

      • Shawn Poindexter

        I thought he walked them down the hill and across the creek. Wouldn’t the kill site be on the north side if they were across the creek. Providing the down the hill was from the south end of the bridge?

  4. Well, coming from a chemistry lab background I can tell you that wherever the killing took place would have been taped off as a crime scene area with NO ENTRY. Samples need to be occasionally retaken, sometimes a more experienced team comes in and requests additional work or samples or access to scour for any missed clues and they can’t have it tracked up and ruined by Joe Public. Since Julie Melvin was able to go “down the hill” and all the way to the creek on the first couple of Monon videos she put on youtube tracing the girls steps (meaning not roped off by LE), that means they were killed on the other side of the creek where they were found unless LE did not notice it their first day on scene and that is not possible. They take photos and look at how the blood flowed, etc to see if it happened there or elsewhere. They knew right away.

  5. So I am saying the bodies were not moved across the creek after being killed. Otherwise both sides would have been roped off.

  6. Rich_M

    I never saw Julie’s videos. If she was able to walk through the disposal site thats bad. That means that probably dozens if not hundreds trampled everything under foot..destroying any evidence in the process. The first thing the first cop on the scene should do is secure the scene…but the small town cops rarely get these types of cases and haven’t a clue how to proceed.

  7. Curious Reader

    Having followed the case, I agree with many of your theories, but you don’t post any sources when making assertions about them wearing scarves for the funeral, being badly bruised, the bodies being moved, Libby surviving for 20 hours, etc. etc. which are gigantic claims.

    Half of your sources are “people close to the investigation.”

    Who? Citation?

    • Having followed the case, I agree with many of your theories, but you don’t post any sources when making assertions about them wearing scarves for the funeral, being badly bruised, the bodies being moved, Libby surviving for 20 hours, etc. etc. which are gigantic claims.

      All of these are from people who live in Delphi. They are mostly rumors anyway, so it’s beyond me why rumors have to be sourced too. The scarves claim came from enough people who stated that they were at funeral that it seems like fact.

      Scarves at the funeral: Quite a few statements by Delphi residents who attended the funerals.

      Bodies being moved: Statements from the search party. But it does not look like they were moved anyway.

      Abbie surviving for 20 hours: Attack took place around 3:30 PM 2-13 and she was discovered on 2-14. That’s 21 hours. There have been all sorts of statements from Delphi people close to the families of the girls and Delphi people close to LE that her body was still warm when found, that she was near death when found, that she died on the way to the hospital, etc. And the coroner apparently listed the cause of death as hypothermia because incredibly she survived the attack. But we are not sure if this rumor is true. The warm body rumor seems to be a strong rumor though. The others are weaker.

      Being badly bruised:
      A Delphi woman close to one of the girls’ families. Pretty strong rumor.

      Half of your sources are “people close to the investigation.”

      Who? Citation?

      Sorry, but I cannot tell you that. I will tell you though that the sources are from Delphi residents close to LE. I spoke with LE several times, but LE hasn’t told me a damn thing. I think if I asked them if my name is Robert Lindsay they would say, “I am sorry, but I cannot reveal anything about an ongoing investigation.” Broken record with those guys.

  8. Garry Palin

    Very interesting work you’ve done on this case Robert to try and get the truth of what really happened to the girls. It’s very hard to do, as rumors start to make things inconsistent, but I’ve always found that if enough credible people are talking – there will be no doubt a lot of truth to them.

    I think firstly we have to assume this crime was “sexual” in nature, so the killer was both a pedophile and a killer. He likely also was a “sadist” and got a sexual thrill out of physically harming someone – that turns him on.

    This killer is a sociopath or psychopath – really both one in the same. A sociopath doesn’t really feel any emotions – does not feel sadness or happiness, as he stays the same all the time. I’m sure in your practice you must deal with these type of people and may agree with me. I’ll give you my take on this killer(s). As you say there may be 2, or maybe only 1.

    One thing I found very interesting and I read this today on a Sleuth forum, is that Abby only lived 1/8 of a mile from the bridge. That’s only about 6-7 city blocks – “that’s very close.” I’m sure some man could have seen her around and was watching her habits. Also Abby and her mom only moved to this area from Michigan about 1.5 years ago.

    Also Abby liked to camp and I have a picture of her fishing, and it could be from the creek or river, as the bridge is in the background. If indeed she does live that close, I’m sure men like Ron Logan – “property owner” may have seen her around. I think her living so close by is “very significant”- my source – “Websleuths,” and this poster also posted the picture of Abby fishing. Apparently she and Libby frequented this area quite often??? I don’t know.

    1) from looking at this “suspect’s” picture – walking on the bridge, I’d put his age at about 38 to 42 years old. You have him at 60, but his face actually looks a lot younger. You can tell by skin texture, and I’m good at sizing up age. I will add, the photo is a little blurry though – so hard to get a real good look at his face. I’ll refer to suspect as BG – “bridge guy.” I think BG’s height is around 5′ 9 to 5′ 10 inches tall, with a heavy-set build, his weight is around 190 to 210 lbs., and he looks very strong.

    One thing I noted – he walks with a “duck walk” – if you notice his “right foot” plant in one of the pictures, his toes are pointed outside on about a 45 degree angle. Most people walk with their toes pointed straight ahead. I would say only about 4% of the population walks like that. With the picture being so blurry of his face, they should look at “body language” and study his gait and how he walks. I’m sure he has a “duck walk.”

    Suspect’s (BG) Education- I’d say he’s likely has a Grade 11 or 12 education and maybe also a tradesman (electrician, plumber, etc.) I also think it’s quite likely he’s a truck driver or a delivery man, makes trips to the Delphi area quite often and knows people there cause of work.

    I also think he’s not that smart!!! To leave something like a cell phone on the body of the person you just killed is pretty stupid. A smart person would know that young girls love their phones and love taking pictures. It’s also possible that Libby chucked it in the bush to not let him find it??? Be interesting to know where the phone was found???

    There is a good chance this Killer is from out of state, as it would be far to risky in a small town to do something like this where everyone knows you.

    Other things about BG – he looks like he’s disguising himself, walking with a mission, and has a deadly look in his eyes. This tells me he’s come prepared and knew the girls would be there. I think someone in the area told him this, or he obtained this thru social media and planned a meeting with the girls (I think social media – “good bet”).

    General Personality – looks very meticulous – plans everything ahead of time, as this wasn’t done at the spur of the moment. His jeans look washed and pressed, and his dress looks “all in order.” If he’s a trades guy, I would bet all his tools are “clean” and organized. I don’t think he’s ever been married but may at one time and quite likely still does live with a parent, like a mother who washes his clothes etc. – “very possible.”

    Pedophiles are not interested in adult women at all – they “like girls” – not women and get quite excited when around young kids. I know 2 pedos thru my work and got to know them and found out a little about their backgrounds. Both of these guys came from an “unstable or weird” family upbringing, and both didn’t like one of the parents at all. I did not know they were pedos when I met them.

    This guy is definitely not a homeless guy – “forget it” – he works and is probably quite a good reliable worker. He could be liked or at least get along with his fellow workers. He looks and dresses like a truck driver, and most of these guys that sit behind a wheel all day “have quite a gut” – so I would say he’s about 30 lbs overweight – around 190 to 200 lbs and strong.

    He’d have to be very strong if Robert is right about moving the girls across the creek – right??? Robert thinks the suspect is 60 yrs old??? How many 60 year old’s could lift and carry a 170 to 180 lb Libby thru water and over rough terrain? Most guys I know that age are looking to get hip or knee replacements, and some I know walk with a cane.

    If there were 2 guys, I could see them moving Libby – just 1 – 60 years old??? I have my doubts. I do think there are some 50-60 year old men who keep in great shape who would have the kind of strength required to move the girls (very few, and ones that I know work out with weights and are very strong).

    Moving Abbie – “not that hard” as she would weigh from 100 to 120 lbs judging by her photo. So, was there one killer or 2??? Judging from police reports and what Robert has said, there may have been 2 men (one was spotted – “all in black”) by trail hikers and probably worked in unison with BG (bridge suspect).

    If there was only (1) killer, he definitely “was not very bright.” Can you imagine a guy wading thru a creek carrying a lifeless limp body over his shoulder?? You’d have to be crazy to put yourself at that kind of risk of someone seeing you. Also to do this crime in the middle of the day on a popular hiking trail makes me wonder how bright these guy(s) are – “not to bright” – IMO

    Suspects – and things that bother me:

    1) Jimmy Duvall – according to a person on Reddit that seems very genuine, he has not missed (1) day at work in 3 years at the Chrysler Auto plant where he works. Apparently he phoned in sick and was away from February 12 to Feb 15-th, and this poster says he’s not come back yet. He was taken right from work to give a DNA sample and then took off.

    Robert says he’s at home??? But is he really??? How does anyone know for sure unless you work with law enforcement (you don’t). Just like Robert said awhile ago – one girl was found nude and the other clothed – so he is getting “false information” as well. This Duvall could be at home and could be innocent though.

    Hopefully FBI have DNA – and they tested him, but it would take 2-3 weeks to get those results back. I’d say he’s still in the mix. This guy is a pedophile and a violent one as his past “convictions” prove.

    2) Ron Logan – although he’s 75 yrs old and was the property owner where the girls were found – there is something very troubling about him in my mind. I don’t think he directly killed the girls. Could he have given information to someone who frequents his property. Remember Abby only lives 1/8 mile away (6 blocks) and may have played on Logan’s property.

    I read the state order – he was arrested for violating probation and with “no bail option” – I find this very odd and perplexing??? You would think FBI, police, etc. would not all of a sudden call Ron Logan on this at the time of one of the nation’s biggest murders. This would scar him for life.

    Why didn’t they arrest him a long time ago when he violated probation, or why not wait till the dust settles down in this case? He wasn’t going to go anywhere. I believe they will keep him detained, and I believe he may know something very important, so that’s why they’re keeping him in jail with “no bail” rights.

    If he has been released (which I doubt), then I guess police are satisfied he’s totally innocent – “and he could be.”

    Other Possible – Justin Wildey – 40 yrs. old – he’s wanted right now for child molestation – saw his poster. He’s from Indiana – weighs 220 lbs and is 6’3, so he’s mighty big and strong and would be capable of carrying the girls, and he’s also a pedophile. He works as a mover and may have been with the company that moved Abby’s family from Michigan to Delphi, Indiana. Some sleuther posters say this is very possible.

    In Summary – I’m sure the FBI and police have a lot more suspects than what I have listed, and I believe their expertise is second to none, and they are going to give themselves the greatest opportunity to catch this monster or 2 killers that are on the loose.

    Forensics has come a long long way in the last 30 years or so, and even a little fabric, or hair, shoe print, anything, can be identified, and I’m sure they are going all-out and exhausting every possible lead they get. It’s my hope that these cruel, cowardly monsters that pick on little girls are caught before they take another life.

    I thank Robert for his insight into this case and also for his great site.

    For some reason this case “really grabbed me,” and I want the guy(s)caught soon as possible, and who knows – they may be tracking him down right now. Not many cases where they have voice and a picture.

    It’s only a matter of time on this case!!!

  9. Mer

    I don’t think anyone has been cleared.

  10. Mer

    This update adds a new perspective on how brutal these crimes were, and how the girls must have suffered. He or they will be beaten repeatedly in prison, by the inmates, and eventually be killed

  11. Steve Mathis

    Robert, Are you seeing a possible link to Tad Cummins. He abducted the girl on March 13th. Again the #13. He was suspended on February 6. Maybe a trigger would have set him off to act. He wasn’t working on this day and could have driven up from Columbia, Tennessee. He knew how to court, groom young teenagers. He is active in social media, and could of catfished one of the girls. He has two guns, which matches your profile. Even though teacher, he dresses very similar. See the Jacket. He also appears to be a meticulous planner as you can see by his kidnapping ploy and by pictures of him buying womens hair dye. I would consider a POI>

    • Um can you give me a link to this guy?

      On another note, how can you possibly “groom” a teenage girl? You can only groom children, and teenage girls are not children. It’s not a girl and it’s not a woman. It’s not a child, and it’s not an adult. It’s in between. It’s like a girl-woman, some in between thing. For one thing, teenage girls have a sex drive as strong as an adult woman, and little girls do not have any drive at all.

      Just pointing out some important differences.

      Anyway, most men having sex with teenage girls are doing it because the girls seduced them. Also in almost all cases it is consensual, that is, the girl likes it. Almost everything you hear about teenage girls and men is wrong.

      Although I do admit that 13 yr old girls do not go after men that often. I know they try to and do seduce men sometimes, but I think they do it a lot less than other jailbaits because they are so young. For instance, I had a 13 yr old try to seduce me once as a teacher. She openly said in the middle of class that she wanted me to have sex with her and to meet her in the park after school to do it.

      I was 27. Of course I did not do it thank God. I don’t mess with teenage girls. Haven’t touched one since I was 21.


      • “On another note, how can you possibly “groom” a teenage girl? You can only groom children, and teenage girls are not children.”

        Children, teenage girls, and grown women can ALL be “groomed.” Grooming occurs when a power figure (teacher, parent, dominant partner in the relationship) deliberately establishes an emotional connection and relationship with another person in order to exhibit control and to lower their inhibitions, usually for the purpose of exploitation or abuse.

        Little by little, a seemingly healthy relationship becomes darker as the person is isolated from their family and friends, suffers mental and physical abuse-and sometimes sexual, becomes mentally and physically dependent upon the other person, and begins suffering from self-esteem issues and other behavioral and mental health problems. Battered women are “groomed” every day.

        Just ask the formerly confident, attractive, independent woman who, after years of mental and physical abuse, finds herself cow-towing to their partner’s every wish and demand, losing her autonomy, and finding herself mentally unable to leave the relationship.

        Women and teenagers are groomed in a different way. They’re taught to sit quietly without asking questions, to immediately respond to any text or phone call, to put their own needs and desires aside to focus on what their partner wants, to dress and behave in public the way the other person wants, to give in to sexual desires that make make them uncomfortable, to respond to things in a manner in which they are uncomfortable. They’re groomed to do these things in the beginning by being rewarded, just like a dog is rewarded for treats. And later, when they’re not complacent, they’re punished.

        Certain women are targeted. Perhaps they appear vulnerable or weak. Or maybe they’re just young. They learn to gain the other person’s trust. They find their needs being met. Then the relationship becomes sexualized. From there, control is maintained. At that point, they’re often so entangled within the relationship that it’s difficult to get out.

        If you’d like, I can provide data, research, case studies, and messageboards where you can read many experiences from women and teenagers who have been “groomed.” From women and teenagers who have escaped abusive relationships and even sex trafficking situations.

        “She probably seduced him. That’s how this stuff usually goes.”

        I would like to see citations for peer-reviewed studies that show that the “most men having sex with teenage girls are doing it because the girls seduced them” and that “Also in almost all cases it is consensual”. Because I can tell you, as a woman and former teenage girl, that’s not been MY experience. As a family therapist, that certainly goes against the studies I’ve seen and read-not to mention the experience I’ve had with dozens of my young clients.

        Regardless, a 13-year-old is a child. No matter how “mature” they appear, no matter if they’ve started menses or not, no matter if they have the body and vocabulary of a 20-year-old-they’re are NOT a woman. Either legally or emotionally.

        Do you have a daughter? I do.

        • How bout this? She’s not a child, and she’s not an adult. She’s not a girl, and she’s not a woman. She’s a child-adult or girl-woman.

          I assume you oppose all of the Romeo and Juliet exemptions, right?

        • If you’d like, I can provide data, research, case studies, and messageboards where you can read many experiences from women and teenagers who have been “groomed.”

          Please direct me to these sites, messageboards and whatnot where these teenage girls talk about how they got “harmed” when they probably seduced the guy in the first place and when it was consensual and when she was probably opposed to his prosecution.

        • Tamara Dungan

          Thank you for this! I was enjoying the thread up to this entire comment about teenage girls. Most teenage girls are insecure both mentally and physically. Some are having sex and some are not. If they are having sex, it’s not because they have such a strong sex drive…it’s to gain some form of approval or comfort or because they feel pressured into it either by the male or by peers. I’m a former teenage girl myself and now a mother to teenage girls and I can promise you that neither I, nor my daughter’s, nor my daughter’s friends, nor my friends daughters, or any other teenage girls I know spend their days seducing grown men to fulfill their “rampant sex drives”.

    • Permission granted for the first request.

      The second request is a lot harder because this is a Game/PUA blog for men and we talk about how to get women all the time. It just so happened that we went off on a tangent with this crime story.

    • Jordy Wright

      Steve, yes I see what you’re saying and I agree it should be at least ruled out (or in). The circumstances and timeframe of Cummins job suspension are of interest at the least. The stature of Cummins and his apparel is also quite similar to the image of the man on the bridge. Cummins still has active accounts on Twitter and Instagram, probably other social media sites as well. I wouldn’t think he had planned with the girls to meet with him but rather he got some sort of indication (via social media somehow) where they were planning to go on the day they were murdered. It is only a 6 hour drive. The audio released where the man is heard saying, “down the hill” could be part of a conversation that went something like this, “hey I need help with something (insert many possibilities here, a pet, a stuck vehicle, etc etc..) and it’s just down the hill could you help me out?” Tad Cummins does have a You Tube channel. On that channel, are videos from his classroom. The CPR one in particular has him speaking so it’s possible to analyze his voice with the right equipment quite easily. His channel is called “Tad Cummins” the video is titled “Tad Teaching CPR”. It’s worth looking into.

  12. Summer

    If we want to be technical when a death is suspicious the Medical Examiner not a coroner do the autopsy!!! Therefore, the Medical Examiner would’ve determined the dates of their deaths !!!

  13. Gina

    Thank you for taking ur time to keep us updated. This is very horrific murders on 2 innocent young girls. My prayers go out to the friends and families of these 2 young girls. May God Wrap his arms around all and help them get through this horrific time… May God also help catch this murderer or murderers…. Please also help catch whomever took the young girl missing in Kokomo that lived with her grandma, that no one is searching for like they have for Libbey and Abbie…. I dont understand y people like to spread rumors that has to b even harder for the families.. people are such a disgrace when they spread rumors…..Please keep up the great dedicated work u do….
    Thank you

  14. Ryan

    Just wanted to point out that many people (myself included) who are right handed carry a gun on their right hip. Depends on the holster and how you like to have the gun positioned (i can draw it quicker that way). Now, some folks carry on the side of their opposite hand (ie right handed but carry on left hip) but that’s if you prefer to “cross draw” where your arm crosses your body to draw your gun. Basically, whether he had a holster on his right or left hip doesn’t matter.

    • Mer

      I think the gun is not in a holster. It is in his right side jacket pocket and placed butt first. You can see stress lines in his jacket from the weight of the gun.

  15. Kristin

    So everyones aware there is a dirt road that leads to homes after bridge ends?

  16. Carrie Stewart

    Is the picture of suspect with a hat on? I can tell one is, hat and hoodie but I cannot tell in the other picture?
    If no hat in other picture then suspect very strongly resembles somebody I know.

    • Kay

      if you even “think” the picture looks like someone you know, report it! Let the police decide. Any little bit of information can be vital in catching the killer. Please report your thoughts to the police.

    • Mer

      The photos released appear to be taken less than a second apart. He does appear to be wearing a billed cap.

  17. There was a sketch of a suspect early on that I only saw once with railroad picture – never saw it again – do you know why?

    I am glad that someone finally posted an approximate age – height and weight – think that might have saved some tips to the FBI if they had that info (assuming what you posted is correct).

    I actually called FBI with a tip regarding a “Most Wanted” guy arrested several days later in another Indiana County. Must not have been him but my gut told me to call as he had a stalky build look.

    I do not live in that area anymore – grew up in White County in the 50-60’s and was very familiar with Delphi. Appreciate all the time invested in trying to solve this crime by everyone involved!

  18. Dirk Alan Schrontz

    I’m confused or maybe you are??? Who is Jim Logan? You go from one sentence to another two different times saying Ron Logan then Mr. Logan then Jim Logan. All are the same, correct – being Ron??? By chance what is his son’s name?

    Is it the guy that has a serial sex offender conviction of the 4th degree with multiple variables out of Jackson, Michigan? He was convicted on 03/13/1995 and now resides here just 20 minutes away from Delphi? Don’t know if it’s his son though? 38 yrs old. If it is boy maybe dad is acting weird cause he is covering for his son. Who knows those woods better than a son that grew up living in those woods?

  19. TamekaHughes

    Did u hear that one of the girls had a pole/stick pushed through the vagina into stomach? And wats this about sexual relationship with unrelated uncle?

    • Wait a minute. She was speared in the vagina and then up into her stomach from there? Or he stood over her and plunged a stick into her stomach from above, going directly into the stomach? Which did you hear?

    • This is correct. Libby had an ongoing sexual relationship with Cody P., her unrelated uncle.

      • Sunflower

        Why is this man not being apprehended by child and protective services? I think a lot of people in Delphi have something to hide so they are keeping quiet.

        • Lotus

          The police say they are down to their last 500 tips. Maybe the answer is in those last 500.

        • You want to hear something even more blockbuster than that? How bout this?

          Mike P., the guardian of Libby, knew that his son, Cody P., was dating his own daughter, apparently approved of it and allowed it to go on. I assume Cody P. did not live with his father. I have information that says Cody P. would come over to Libby’s to take Libby out for the night. Mike P. said nothing of his son doing except, “Have her home by 10.” Cody P. would indeed bring her home by 10, but he would have sex with her before then. So Mike P. was allowing his son, a 28 year old man, to date his granddaughter, a 14 year old girl.

          I have to say that I do not think that is very good parenting on Mike P.’s part. Any thoughts?

          It also appears that Libby may have been in love with Cody P., her own unrelated uncle. There is a photograph on the web of Libby and Cody P. together with a heart over it and it says something like “Love forever.”

          Furious Delphi residents are writing me telling me that I will be sued for libel for suggesting that Cody P. had an ongoing sexual relationship with Libby. Well I say go for it. Because I have a screenshot of a conversation between Cody P. and Libby’s own biological father, now a policeman, in which Cody P. admits to having sex with her, to which Libby’s own father only says, “Dude, she’s only 14!” So Libby’s father and her grandfather both seem to have known that she was having sex with a 28 year old man.

          Cody P., like Ron Logan, is a habitual drunk driver. At age 28, he has already wracked up ~four drink driving convictions. He has enough to where they are being prosecuted as felonies. They have been coming at ~two year intervals since age ~20. So Cody P. has obviously been in jail before. He’s also no doubt had his license suspended.

          I must say that Cody P. is not exactly a fine upstanding young man.

          As far as personality, Cody P. is a “bad boy.” He’s also what I would call an “Alpha male.” I can see how females are attracted to him. He’s also a bit of an a bastard, as most such player/womanizer types are.

          Also my Delphi sources think Cody P. had some involvement in this crime, but I have not been able to uncover any evidence at all linking him to these murders, other than possible motive, but that’s not worth much of anything.

          I also have some interesting evidence, albeit maybe circumstantial, against Mike P. I will discuss it if you email me. I do not want to talk about it here right now.

        • Sun

          Robert this indeed is some incredible new information. The information about Liberty’s biological father is a bit confusing to me. He is a police officer? I read that he was sentenced to 800 days in 2015 for methamphetamine dealing. Maybe that’s a different person with the same name? Or maybe the name I searched is not her biological father? I went off the name listed as her father in her obituary.

        • Maybe he is a stepfather then. Becky Patty has been married a few times I would say.

          I will see if I can get this man’s name for you. This man’s name is Mike Bevard. He is a police officer and apparently used to be married to Becky Patty. Someone needs to figure out who this Mike Bevard fellow is.

        • Dirk Alan Schrontz

          Derrick German is Libby’s biological father. Mike Patty is step grandfather.

      • Lotus

        I doubt this. It looks like Cody P is in a relationship with a nice looking, adult woman named Brittany K.

        The photo with the heart on it is a memorial to Libby, which was made as part of the Wepay site to raise funds for the memorial softball field, which was started by Cody P and on which he featured a photo of himself and Liberty on a carnival ride together. The heart pic was used by some as a link to the Wepay. It looks like a little girl put the “Heart” and “Love” on the picture of Cody and Libby as a way of showing her love for Libby.

        It looks like Cody P was in jail or prison until about a year ago. Maybe it was for drunk driving, not sure. When he got out, he was living with someone named Burt. No sorry, Burt does not look like the BG.

        By the way, if Cody is Mike’s son, that makes him Libby’s cousin, not her uncle. But since Libby appears to have been de facto adopted by Mike, that makes Cody more like her brother.

        If family members go out for a fun time (rides at a carnival), that does not mean they are having sex or in a sexual relationship. Let’s say, even if there was some attraction between them, that still does not mean they were in a sexual relationship.

        It seems like the Delphi Town Gossips have gotten hold of your common sense.

        Think about this. In the scenario being proposed, Cody took Libby out and Mike said “Have her home by 10.” It is normal for cousins to go out and normal for the younger one to have a curfew time. But think about this? WHO would have been there to hear Mike say this? No one who is gossiping to you, that is for sure.

        The bottom line is that cousins going out together to a carnival or party or restaurant does not mean they are in a sexual relationship.

        • Look Lotus, I am banning your ass, ok?

          You have been engaging in thinly veiled hostility towards me for a very long time now. I have put up with it for a long time, but now you crossed the line. Read the rules.

          Violation of Comments Rules: Hostile tone.

          I am pretty much done with you. Just go somewhere else and be annoying over there.


        • I will now respond to Lotus’ snarky comment, disagreeing with me, as she disagrees with everything I say.

          It’s so much worse than that. If they are cousins, they are not related. Mike P. is not related to Libby.

          I have screenshots of Cody P. openly confessing to having sex with Libby. And on the night in question, when Mike P. said, “Have her home by 10,” Cody P. is on record as saying that he had sex with her, and then he had her home by 10.

          Screenshots of Cody P. confessing to this are available to any readers who want to see them via email request. I am not going to post them on the site.

  20. Scout

    My thoughts are if this is true, then he would be considered a predator, Libby was another one of victims of sexual conquest, and to suggest anything else is similar to blaming the victim.
    Btw, Robert, do you mind sharing in which DSM. Disorder you specialize? Thank you.

    • OCD.

      And I am very good at it, better than most clinicians. I get misdiagnosed people coming to me all the time, usually dx’d psychotic or “anxiety.” OCD’ers get misdiagnosed psychotic all the time because when it is really bad, they appear psychotic. But I can pretty much tell the difference, although there are a few cases that even have me going round and round.

      Furthermore, there is schizo-obsessive disorder, which is really just schizophrenia and OCD in the same person. I have had two of those, and one was a classic case. He was a diagnostic nightmare, and not only that, but he was hiding symptoms from me. He definitely had OCD, but he also had an active psychotic process going on.

      I work with clients all over the world who have this, mostly in Canada, Australia, and Western Europe.

      I do not even deal with any other mental illnesses. I just tell them that I don’t have expertise in that, and they can stay with me, but I am not guaranteeing anything, and it might not be better than talking to relatives or friends.

      I do work with problems in living, deep stuff (exploring your inner psyche), and growth stuff (growing as a person).

      One thing that I have had a very difficult time fixing is longterm low self-esteem. It seems that it gets hammered into the brain somehow, and in most cases, I have not been able to fix it. It’s almost like it is a treatment-resistant disorder.

      If you want to know why I talk about sexual stuff like teenage sex, hebephilia, pedophilia, etc., it is because I am constantly dealing with OCD’ers with the “pedophilia” theme. That is, they worry that they are pedophiles, but of course they are not. So I hear about pedophilia all day long.

      In the course of this, of course I have to do differential diagnosis on everyone to make sure they are just OCD’ers and not true pedophiles.

      Almost everyone who comes to me is an OCD’er, but I did have two pedophiles come to me. I had to tell both of them that they were pedophiles. And they both presented in exactly the same way, which was completely different from how the OCD’ers present. They were both good men, and neither was offending. I believe neither had offended.

      One guy was in such utter despair that the therapy of him was to get him to accept and be happy with the fact that he was a pedophile. What else is he supposed to do? It’s incurable, he’s never hurt anybody, and his orientation is not going away. I’d rather have him a happy non-offending pedophile than a suicidal wreck. These people need to accept their orientation and be happy about it and then get with a therapist on a long-term basis to keep them from offending. Actually they can go long periods without offending. One cohort was followed for 25 years, and after 25 years, 50% had not offended.

      I also deal with people dealing with the Harm theme of OCD, which is a person who has homicidal thoughts and worries that they are a psychopath or potential killer. Of course they are not; they just think they are. So I get to hear about serial killers and murder all day long. I have to do differential diagnosis with all of these too to make sure it is OCD and not something more serious. I did have one client who was not OCD and instead had a lot of symptoms of sociopathy, and I had to tell them so.

      I have dealt with a few people with the gay theme of OCD where they worry that they are gay. Of course they are not. But I have to do an orientation check to make sure. In one case of a teenage boy, he presented as a possible Gay OCD case, but I quickly determined that he was just gay.

      In the course of this sex talk, I get to hear about all of the wildest, craziest, weirdest and most perverted sexual stuff which people share with me in confidence. I have concluded that human beings are a Hell of a lot more perverted and kinky that anyone thinks. They just hide it under a facade of normalcy.

      Also in the course of my practice, I often have to do a sexual history, often including masturbation habits, fantasies, onset of sex drive, etc. If people are wondering why I was researching onset of the female sex drive, it was in part for that reason.

      I also have to do a sexual orientation check. I have had a couple of gay clients who simply could not accept that they were gay, and the therapy was just to hammer it into their heads that they were gay, and they had to be happy about this. I think most clinicians are pretty lousy at determining sexual orientation. They just don’t get it, and the avalanche of Gay Propaganda has not helped matters.

      I call myself Peer Counselor and it’s all straight up legal.

      • PaulC

        Fascinating, I am a recovering pure OCD person. The things you fear the most are the things you think about the most. For me it was killing a loved one. Followed by being gay, killing pets, killing anyone, sexual abuse, and suicide. It is horrible. I remember the moment it started, I was holding my infant son and the thought crossed my mind, what if I went crazy, in 2 seconds I could do the most horrible thing one can imagine, kill your own child. In the moment I went from the happiest loving dad to someone who was afraid to be alone with my child. It just got worse from there.

      • Scout

        Thank you. That does shed some insight into your theoretical orientation. I currently supervise a graduate-working-on-licensure counselor whom just finished ATSA approved certification for youthful offenders of sexual abuse. This sex stuff is deeply entrenched. I do not always consider every offender a hopeless case, nor do I automatically assume every allegation is truthful. But for every offender/ predator there are multiple victims for the same person. We hear a lot of graphic details, don’t we? That is for informing.

        • Scout

          Sorry. The above responses were meant for Robert.

        • I suppose I am like you. Almost all of my clients are very nice people because OCD’ers are known to be the nicest people around. It would be hard for me to work with what I consider to be bad people. I mostly just don’t end up working with such folks.

          However, I did work with a minor who showed signs of sociopathy.

          We can’t diagnose psychopathy or sociopathy until adulthood because a lot of minors go into a sociopathic phase and then grow out of it. I was actually able to get somewhere with this person, but minors are probably easier to work with as the disorder has not set in hard yet.

          My orientation for working with a sociopathic person would be to convince them that their criminal behavior is stupid. You can’t tell them it’s morally wrong because they do not believe in right and wrong and good and bad. They think those are just made-up meaningless terms. My approach was to convince them that serious criminality, especially serious violence, would be the just about the stupidest thing they could possibly do.

          Sociopaths hate stupidity more than anything else. They think the rest of us are idiots, which is why the prey on us. To tell a sociopath that they are stupid is the worst insult.

          So you convince them that serious violence would be a profoundly stupid way of living their lives and getting what they want, and I think you could get through to them. They are still going to be lousy people and they will use and con others throughout life. But if you can take a potentially homicidal sociopath and get to agree with you that homicidal violence would be the dumbest approach they could possibly take, I think you can get through with some of them. There is a woman taking this approach right now with some success.

          Really with these people we are talking about damage control. They are going to do lots of damage to others and society in their lives. That’s just a given. Our task is simply to try to lessen the damage they do to the outside world.

        • We hear a lot of graphic details, don’t we?

          I can’t believe the stuff people tell me. I suppose when you practice strict confidentiality, people will just dump the whole dump truck on you. Not that I mind. We all have dump trucks in our heads and you have to take out the trash once in a while.

          You name it, I’ve heard it. At this point, I am almost unshockable. I’ve heard it all.

  21. Nietsnie

    The FBI would have certainly combed over all of this by now.

    • Nietsnie

      Traffic cams have the timeline pinpointed on the comings and goings, not to mention satellite monitoring.

  22. Doe Doe

    Cody P wrote a story while attending Delphi High about how he becomes a murderous monster:

  23. Kelly Hawkins

    You think these cases may be involved with a 20 yr old here in Thornton, Colorado? The young 10 yr old looks similar to Libby and was also found near a creek in woods 2 miles away from home. I’m just reading up on the news on FB that happened couple days ago when she went missing.

  24. Curiouser

    I just looked at Cody P’s FB. There are comments from a girl whose last name is German (same as Liberty’s) who is dating someone whose last name is Duvall Same as Jimmy’s). They are seem very friendly, but then one comment shows the German woman posting simply “Liberty German”. Just interesting, that’s all.

  25. racheal peace

    Man 55 plus. retired military.killed cleanly.used wire or other military instrument to strangle.didnt force girls down hill. Lied about finding something there. Small penis. Staked area beforehand.drove smaller vehicle on previous visits.

  26. Renee Watkins

    The killer could’ve even been somebody that friended her on snap chat. Cause Libby was adding pictures to her story so that person could’ve seen the photos and drove there. Also the photo of. Abbie on the bridge if u look at the other side of the bridge is a person figure, so then in the car could’ve been another person.

  27. Found this blog and several other forums after watching the Dr. Phil episode that was aired about the case. Interestingly enough, according to a forum I found talking about Jimmy Duvall, Duvall was charged with attempted rape, and his victim survived cuts to the throat and other body parts. Seems consistent with the theory that German and Williams had their throats slit.

    Source: http://forum.casebook.org/showthread.php?p=410011

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