Comments on this post are now closed. Commenters are directed to the update of this post here.
Most of the red hot discussion about this case has moved over to the private password-protected threads. On this forum you can discuss people’s full names, addresses, phone numbers, you name it – you can accuse anyone of anything, and you don’t have to worry about the threat of a defamation or libel lawsuit. Furthermore, the forum is rigorously policed to keep out trolls, spies, and other disruptors. None of your comments will appear on Internet search engines – you can say anything you want under any name you want without leaving a permanent record on the Net. A vast amount of mostly unreleased photos, videos, and data is stored and discussed here. All of our material is turned over to LE, and my understanding is that LE monitors the private forum. At this moment, we have ~200 Websleuths working on the case. Instructions for joining those threads are here.
Note to commenters: Please stop referring to Unsub as a pedophile. He may well be one, but that’s something that cannot be determined from this crime, as it was not a pedophilic offense. Pedophilic crimes only refer to those against victims who are 12 years old and under.
A hebephilic crime would target a victim of 11-14 years of age. As you can see, there is some overlap around the tweens. Instead of being a pedophilic crime, this was a hebephilic offense. And while the perpetrator could certainly be seen as a hebephile, he’s not necessarily one. If you want to refer to the nature of the offense, use the word hebephilic instead of pedophilic. If you wish to refer to Unsub’s paraphilia, assuming he even has one, please refer to him as a hebephile and not a pedophile.
Pedophilia: Strong or exclusive sexual preference for girls 12-under.
Hebephilia: Strong or exclusive sexual preference for girls ~11-14.
Age of victims: 13 and 14
You do the math.
Thank you so much for this.
Note to commenters 2: I am getting tired of saying this over and over, but most of the material below is made up of rumors and my own opinions and theories. None of that is represented as fact. Furthermore, I am not using rumors as reliable sources as has been alleged. I never said they were reliable sources.
How reliable is a rumor? That’s for you to determine, but in general a rumor is not considered to be a reliable source, and they are not treated as such below. The only thing that is represented as fact are statements sourced from LE or the media. If you have issues with rumors, theories, opinions. etc., just quit reading right now and save yourself the heartache.
Sexually-motivated double homicide of two teenage girls, one 13 and the other 14. For some background on this heartbreaking case, see here.
This is a brand new update of the case as of March 29, 2017. Mostly the whole post just got a total rewrite, mostly to clean it up but also to reduce its length. I removed ~1,000 words, so it should be easier to read. The post was also cleaned up in places where additions needed to be made. There is a bit of new information below. The most important of the new information is in italics below.
How Do I Know All This Stuff?
First: How do I know all this stuff?
Question: “Robert, How Do You Know So Much about Serial Killers, Pedophiles, Hebephiles and Sexual Sadists?”
I have done a lot of research on this case including released information, rumors and statements by LE. I have also spoken to people close to the case, including those close to the search party and LE. I also spoke to other sleuthers and people interested in the case. I am getting my very best information from people who are close to the girls’ families. Of all of the rumors and information I get, these are some of the best. Other information is derived from my own theorizing about the case.
So there’s the source of all of the information.
My Musings on This Case
Rumors state that Libby was killed on 2-13, possibly pretty quickly, and Abby died or 2-14. Rumors continue to state that Abbie lived at least for some time after she was attacked. She somehow survived an incredibly vicious attack, but she died later. Conclusion: It now appears that Abbie did indeed survive the initial attack and live for some time after her body was dumped. If the rumors about her body being warm are correct, then she survived for at least 2 hours after she was dumped. Considering her major wounds, it is nothing less than amazing that she was able to survive this long. Sources: People close to LE, people close to the families.
This was not a crime of opportunity. He planned this very well. He plans his crimes with the utmost meticulousness. That is why he is armed with the gun and disguising himself. Source: My speculation based on the nature of the offense and the obvious skill involved.
Unsub is 5’10, 180 pounds with a bit of a middle aged man’s stomach paunch. Other sleuths and common citizens are offering differing views, but I take the expert for now. Source: Expert on CNN, paunch obvious in photo.
In my opinion, Unsub’s age is ~60, but really who knows? LE’s latest estimate is that he is 40-50 years old, but that’s seems too young to me. At the very least, that style of pants is outdated, and nowadays is only worn by men over 40 in that area. Presence of fanny pack also indicates an older man. They were popular in the late 1980’s, but hardly anyone wears them anymore except for some middle aged men. Conclusion: At the moment, the LE estimate of 40-50 is the best guess, but that could still be off. Sources: LE, sleuths commenting on the photo.
Excellent drawing of Unsub from an LE artist.
LE believes that Unsub came from out of state to do this crime. I agree. Source: Recent remark by Indiana State Police quoted in media, my theory based on my favorite POI.
Clearly Unsub has a pistol, a .45 or 911. The pistol was holstered to his right side, which means he is left-handed. The outline of the pistol can clearly be seen in the photo released of the man. A photo exists showing the pistol outlined with graphic software. Source: Gun is obviously visible in photograph. Left-handedness concluded from the holstered gun pointing backwards on the right side.
Photo clearly shows a semiautomatic .911 or 45 mm handgun holstered on his right, which means he is left-handed. If you cannot see that obvious gun there, I do not know what to say to you.
Unsub may be trying to disguise himself in the photos by using a hat and a scarf. Source: LE.
The killer appears to be wearing a camouflage cap. He is an example of one type.
Unsub is wearing a hat, a jacket with a hoodie and blue jeans in the photo. In my opinion, the hat is a camouflage hunting cap with padded ear muffs. Unsub is overdressed for the weather. He seems to have layers of clothing on. He has almost his entire body covered with clothing. Part of this is no doubt to disguise himself, but another reason is so he will have few exposed areas of his body where the girls could leave scratch marks if the girls fight back hard, although they still could scratch up his face pretty well. Source: LE, my own theorizing and conjecture, common sense.
Another camouflage cap. I like this one a lot better, and to me it matches very well with the cap worn by Unsub in the bridge photo.
The fanny pack is probably where he kept his murder kit. Sources: My conjecture. What else could be in that pack?
GIF image of Unsub photos run together.
There has been much talk about whether or not there were two murderers or one. There was good reason to believe the two killers theory, especially as LE appeared to be endorsing it. We have not heard anything about the two killers theory for some time now, so that is becoming a weak rumor. Last I heard was that LE was leaning to one killer. Conclusion: Two killers or one? No one knows! Source: A variety of LE statements.
There have been persistent rumors since even before the case was released to the media (these early rumors coming from family members) that Abbie survived until the next day, 2-14. The were different rumors, including that she was found alive but died on the way to the hospital, that she was alive when found but died soon after, that the coroner said she survived the attack but died of hypothermia in the woods, that her body was still warm when found, etc.
These rumors started almost instantly from people close to the family. We now have some excellent information that she somehow survived the attack and tried to crawl a ways away until she died. I am still getting reports that Abbie died on 2-14, and her body was still warm when found from some of my best sources close to the families, so this version is still strong.
Conclusion: The best analysis now is that Abbie did indeed survive the initial attack and died at some point later on on 2-14. The thing we do not know is how long she survived after she was attacked. We do not know if she died soon after the attack or if she lingered for anywhere from 2-7 hours, which is my theory. Sources: Rumors, people close the family, people close to LE.
Rumors from the search party stated that the girls had to have been moved since the dump site found on 2-14 had been searched on 2-13. The searchers were adamant that they had searched the dump site thoroughly on 2-13. But the girls were covered with leaves, which would have made them hard to find at night.
On the other hand, there is now evidence stating that searchers ran a thermal imager over the area on 2-13 (perhaps with an aircraft?), and while there were plenty of living things down there, none of them were human. In other words, the only things alive in that woods when the imager was run were wild animals. One would think that if the girls had been put there by 4 PM or so on 2-13 that the bodies would have shown up on the thermal imager. Sources: People close to the search party, people close to the families, leak from LE.
There is a rumor about how the girls were moved to the dump site. The rumor said that searchers followed drag marks, presumably left by the girls, to the dump site. So the killer returned the girls to the forest where they were abducted somehow. But this might not be difficult if he had kept them alive in, say, an outbuilding on Ron Logan’s land in order to use the girls overnight. No searchers would have gone near Ron Logan’s outbuildings as they were located far from the search zone, so he had no fear of being caught. On the other hand, the killer may have moved the girls to some other outbuilding, possibly even aways away where he raped and killed or tried to kill them
It is not known how the killer kept the girls quiet, but perhaps he terrorized the girls with a gun or perhaps he had gagged them. They were definitely bound when they were kept in this outbuilding. It also makes sense that he would have kept them alive during this time. No doubt the killer remained with the girls the whole time they were in the outbuilding.
I believe that the homicidal attack on the girls, no doubt the throat slitting, may have been done not long before they were dumped on the hill. One more thing we need to note is that there is no way the killer dumped those bodies there on 2-13 or even up until 2:30 AM on 2-14, as there were loud and obvious searchers with their shouts and lights in the area. You don’t dump bodies right in the middle of a search party that is looking for just those bodies. No one does that.
Yet somehow he dumped those bodies there between 2:30 AM-9:30 AM on 2-14, as the second search began at 9:30 AM. The bodies would have been dumped there at night. Dawn was 7:40 AM on 2-14 so the bodies were dumped there between 2:30-7:30 AM.
There is a rumor says that the killer thrust a large pointed wooden stick into Abbie’s stomach. This brutal spearing must have occurred at the dump site, especially since even that spearing somehow did not kill Abbie! He would not have speared her before being placed at the dump site because it makes no sense to drag a girl with a spear in her down a hill. Further, Abbie survived the spearing, which means she must have been speared at the dump site.
Obviously they were dragged down the hill, placed at the dump site, and then the killer speared Abbie in the stomach as one final “F- you” to the poor girl. This final Parthian thrust shows the profound rage, hatred and contempt that this killer must have felt for his victims.
Yet how could the killer have known about a break in the searchers so he could do his early morning dumping in a ~3-4 time window? This is something I never understood. Did he have a partner or lookout on the property who notified him when the coast was clear? Makes little sense. Occam’s Razor offers us a simpler choice. Of course he knew when there was break in the searchers so he could body-dump. He knew this because he never left Logan’s property the whole time! He never left the area. He just stayed there, hiding with his victims in plain sight, so to speak. Source: Leaks from LE, people close to the families, my own theorizing.
Someone posted photos supposedly from the crime scene on a website frequented by Delphi residents. The photo was quickly taken down, but a number of people saw it anyway. The photo shows the two dead girls and the coroner. The person who posted the photo had some text saying that the bodies are positioned in an odd way. The only sense that he could make out of this odd posing of the bodies is that he thought it might have been some sort of a ritual, possibly a Satanic ritual. I believe this is called “posing” the bodies and is a favorite with serial killers. There are no details on how the girls were positioned. Source: A number of people who saw the Delphi resident’s web page.
The crime scene does not make sense in this case. The girls seem to have been attacked soon after Unsub said, “Go down the hill.” The entire south side of the creek was roped off as a crime scene. I do not feel that this is a homicide site; instead, I feel there was some sort of an altercation here as he tried to put them in a vehicle he had placed there for this purpose.
People are now saying that the whole attack was over soon after it began, and there are reports saying that the 6-minute audiotape contains the horrifying record of a homicide. This would imply that the girls were murdered very quickly. But when they were found, they were bound and had been sexually brutalized as well as being very badly beaten. One would think this would take some time to do.
Also there would be a lot of noise if they were killed right away on the south side of the creek, and someone surely would have heard. The degree of the assault indicating a significant assault over a period of time and the lack of witnesses hearing noise or screams on the south side of the creek implies to me that the attacks took place elsewhere, perhaps in some remote structure. If they were in a remote structure, he could have assaulted them a long time without being seen, and the sound of the assault and the girls’ screams could easily not have been heard, as there was no one nearby. Reports now state that LE believes that the girls were assaulted and attempts were made to kill them in some sort of a structure somewhere, perhaps on Ron Logan’s property.
Reports that the crime was over quickly after it began do not make sense for a variety of reasons. Furthermore, assuming Abbie’s body was still warm when found, if she was murdered at 4 PM on the south side, how does she linger for 17 1/2 hours until the next day? Simple, it didn’t happen. And if he killed them right away and did not dump them on the north side until early AM 2-14, this means that the killer drove around in his vehicle with two dead or near-dead girls in the car with him. And he would have had to drive with those bodies in the car for 10 1/2 hours. That didn’t happen.
However, there is some brutal audio and perhaps video that Liberty recorded on her phone. Some of the audio was recorded right before the abduction, and there is 40 minutes after that. The audio right after the recording of the man saying, “Down the hill,” records the girls screaming.
Does that imply that the girls were attacked soon after being told to go down the hill? Yes.
There are serious problems with the matter of Libbie’s phone. However, whatever was recorded on the phone was surely recorded before 5:30 PM 2-13. After that time and for several hours, Liberty’s phone was pinging all over town which means it was not in Liberty’s possession and was probably lying somewhere in the forest where she discarded it.
The assumption then is that Liberty discarded the phone in the woods before 5:30 PM, and then the phone pinged all over town looking for a signal for several hours before dying. The problem with this theory is that if she threw the phone in the woods, it should have been found by now. And the latest rumor is that Liberty’s phone was not found by LE. The audio and video were obtained from the Cloud, as video and audio from smartphones are saved very quickly after being recorded. So LE didn’t even need the phone because all the relevant information was on the Cloud.
OK, so why was Liberty’s phone pinging all over town for several hours during the search? This would make sense if the phone was in the woods, but it appears now that the phone was not in the woods. So why did it ping all over town? Perhaps it was discarded in some other remote part of the town area.
The killer had the two girls in his remote structure soon after they were abducted. If the structure was not far from the dump site, the phone could have been on Liberty’s body while she was in the structure as Logan’s property is near the forest where they were taken. Perhaps in the process of disrobing her, the killer found Liberty’s cellphone. Perhaps it was dead by this point.
Under this scenario, Unsub either disposed of or destroyed the phone after it died, and this is why it has never been found. Perhaps he smashed it to bits. Perhaps he discarded it in the garbage somewhere. Of course, all of this makes sense if the latest rumors about LE not finding the phone are correct.
This is the first rumor that says anything about whether the phone was found or not. Up to now, we had no word from LE or rumors about the disposition of the phone. Conclusion: We don’t even know if the phone was found by LE or not. Rumors are now saying that the phone was not recovered. If it was not, there are all sorts of problems dealing with the phone. Nothing about this phone makes much sense, and we will just have to leave it at that. Source: People close to the search party, people close to the case.
There is a theory from people close to the family saying that the actual killings took place on the north side of the creek, However, it was the south side that was roped off as a crime scene, not the north side. Yes, the tape was removed two days later, but so what? This is standard procedure in a park. But if the south side was not a homicide scene but instead some other sort of scene such as an abduction scene, it could have been gone over quickly, and there would be no reason to keep it roped off.
The girls were not attacked much at the dump site, as the dump site was described as pristine. Conclusion: The best theory right now is that the south side was the scene of some scuffle probably as he was trying to tie them up or get them in his vehicle. The best evidence now suggests that the girls were killed somewhere else, apparently in some structure. But no one knows where this structure might be. Sources: LE, media reports, sleuths.
The FBI interviewed a man who had property on the south side of the creek. They asked about his gun(s), his vehicle(s) and whether there were any outbuildings. From this we can conclude that the FBI believes that a gun, a vehicle and an outbuilding were used in this crime. The major searches of Ron Logan’s land, the structures there, etc. imply to me that the girls were murdered somewhere on Logan’s land, probably in some structure on his land. But then why is nothing roped off on Logan’s land? At any rate, the repeated searches of Logan’s property do not imply that Logan is guilty so much as that he is the owner of property where a serious crime occurred.
In addition, the notion of a structure fits well into the very earliest statements from family members 1.5 hours before the media even reported the crime saying that the girls were found raped and killed in a cabin. Since the girls were found dumped in the forest, the rumor about being found in a cabin made no sense.
But now there is a way that we tie this all together. Sure, the cabin or structure played a serious role in the crime, but not as a dump site. Instead, the cabin was the place where they were abused, raped and killed! Then they were dumped a short ways away. So the Cabin Theory makes a new appearance, this time making a lot more sense. Sources: Family members, people close to the family, leaks from LE.
Just in, there is a new rumor stating that LE says that Liberty could have escaped several times, but she chose to stay by her best friend’s side to the end. In real life, they were inseparable. That means that Libby is truly a hero for giving her life in order not to abandon her friend. And it makes this crime even more sad. Source: Person close to the family.
There is indeed a voice recording of Unsub saying, “Go down the hill.” The next thing you hear on the tape is the girls screaming. This is part of an audiotape heroically recorded by Libby by turning on the recorder on her phone as the girls were being abducted. It has also been implied, terrifyingly, that the audio is actually a recording of the rapes and murders. Source: People close to the family.
There is a new rumor just in that says that there is not 6 minutes of video/audio but instead there is 40 minutes of video/audio! Someone posted this on a site that the families frequent, and no family members asked to take it down for being inaccurate, so there is something to it. I believe there is little more video, and most of that 40 minutes is audio. And I have heard that it’s ugly and nasty stuff, so terrifying that LE does not want to release it. Strong rumor. Source: Posting on a website frequented by the families of the girls.
There is talk of a white Ford Mustang that can be barely seen in the lower left of the photo of Abbie on the bridge below the bridge. No one even knows if that is a car or not in that photo. Many people say they cannot make out a vehicle in the photo.
However, new information says that that only vehicle that could have been in the location of the “Mustang” would have been an SUV because it is so hard to get to that area by vehicle. That road is a very little-used road that almost no one has even heard of. It appears to have been a road used by workers to maintain the bridge. A new rumor says that LE believes that the killer’s vehicle was parked at a trail head on the south side. Source: Sleuths analyzing the photo of Libby on the bridge, people close to the family.
A possible vehicle can barely be seen circled in blue.
The “vehicle” is very hard to make out in this photo, but I do see what appears to be a vehicle in that photo. At any rate, no one even knows if there is a vehicle in that photo or not.
Libby’s grandfather who raised her said, “I know Libby. She put up one Hell of a fight.” He is correct that Libby put up a strong battle. The reason that the grandfather said she put up a wild fight is probably because that is what it says in the medical report. If she fought hard, there will be talk of defensive wounds and maybe DNA under her nails. The condition of her body at the funeral adds weight to the notion that she fought back very hard and sustained many defensive wounds because she had many small wounds on her body and face. In that case, Unsub may have scratch marks. Source: Media reports, people at the funeral, common sense.
I believe the gun obviously holstered on the right under the jacket of Unsub was probably used to control the girls. He also got them to keep quiet with the gun. However, I do not believe the gun was used to kill the girls. It would have made too much noise. Furthermore, no gunshots were reported in the area around the time of the abduction. Source: Common sense, witness reports.
There is a rumor that both girls had their throats slit. This is a strong rumor. Funerals were open casket, and both girls had scarves covering their necks, more to cover something up than as clothing. This adds weight to the theory that their throats were slit.
There is a rumor about the knife attack on one of the girls, surely Liberty, saying she was nearly decapitated. This is a strong rumor. Since Abbie survived the assault for at least some time afterwards, it was surely Liberty who was nearly decapitated. It would have been almost impossible for Abbie to survive a near-decapitation. No one can survive that.
In fact, it appears that the the wound to Abbie’s throat was not a particularly grievous wound. In other words, if he was trying to kill her, he did a poor job of it. Although the rumor that their throats were slit is only a rumor, it is interesting that there have been no counter-rumors saying this method of attack is not true. One would think that if there were any doubt about this sort of attack, we would have heard at least one counter-rumor by now. Sources: Family members, people close to LE, people at the funeral.
There is a rumor saying that both girls were beaten so badly in their faces that they were nearly unrecognizable. This rumor may well be true, but at least Abbie was fixed up pretty good in her face for the funeral, so one wonders how a funeral director could have covered up such devastating wounds. Source: Source close to the family.
This offense was clearly sexually motivated, and it seems quite clear that sexual assault occurred in the course of the crime. The very first rumors from the family members said both girls had been raped. There is a rumor that says that while both girls were raped, Libby was sexually assaulted worse than Abby was, but I am not sure what that implies. With this rumor, it seems quite clear that both girls were raped. Sources: Family members, people close to LE, general rumors, sources close to family.
There is uncertain information about the state of the bodies when found. All rumors indicate that Abbie was nude. There are differing reports about Liberty, some saying she was clothed and some saying she was also nude. Considering that clothing was found in the creek in an attempt to eliminate DNA evidence, it does not make sense that the killer would leave probable DNA-contaminate clothing on Liberty’s body. Abbie’s clothes were surely found in the water, and common sense would indicate that Liberty’s were too. Conclusion: The theory that best explains the facts is that both girls were found nude. Sources: Rumors, sources close to the family.
We still have no idea if DNA of Unsub was collected from the scene. LE is being very tight-lipped about this. Source: A good source in Delphi, LE, media reports.
There is a rumor that boot prints were found at the scene. These boots are thought to have been worn by Unsub. This would make sense, as LE had some boots in an evidence bag a few days after the killings. They innocuously said that the boots had nothing to do with the crime, but they were probably lying. They probably did not recover Unsub’s actual boots themselves. Why would Unsub discard his boots at the crime scene and walk away shoeless? Makes no sense. It is more likely that LE matched the boot prints to that type and size of boot, indicating that Unsub was wearing boots of that make and size at the time of the crime. Sources: LE, source in Delphi.
The girls’ clothing was found in the creek. This was no doubt an attempt by Unsub to destroy any DNA evidence. Source: Statements from reporter at the scene, common sense.
There is an incredible rumor that victim Abigail Williams, age 13, was pregnant at the time of the attack. It is now known that she definitely had a boyfriend, who was 16 years old. He has been located, and we know his name. At the moment this is a weak rumor, but it does explain some other things such as the spearing attack. Source: A sleuth.
There is very gruesome rumor saying that Abbie’s body was found with a pointed branch driven into her stomach. In other words, Unsub stood over Abbie and plunged the stick into her belly, pinioning her like a shishkebab. If this is true, it is even more incredible for her to survive the attack and even to crawl around with a stick in her body. Source: A source close to the family.
Tying together both of the shocking rumors is the suggestion that Unsub knew that Abbie was pregnant, and the stick attack was an attempt to kill the fetus too. Although this makes sense, one wonders how he could have possibly known that she was pregnant given that she was not very far along. Look at Abbie in the bridge photo. Does she look pregnant in that photo? So how would Unsub discover that she was pregnant? When people are under the control of a potentially murderous person who is assaulting them with what looks like homicidal intent, a lot of victims make various pleas to their attacker(s) to please spare their lives.
These take the form of appeals such as, “Please, no, I have a wife and three kids!…No, spare me, I am the sole breadwinner for my family of five!,” etc. I am sure there are many more. Victims make all sorts of pleas and engage in various manipulations of the person assaulting them in an attempt to stay alive. Most people do not want to die and will try all sorts of desperate measures in an attempt to not be murdered.
Sometimes they work, the attacker has a change of heart and decides to spare one or more victims. If Abbie pleaded with Unsub that he would be killing not just her but another potential life, then Unsub would have learned of her pregnancy. Source: Speculation by me and a fellow sleuth.
There is now a lot of talk that Ron Logan or perhaps his son were involved in this crime. Logan was arrested recently on a probation violation for a drunk driving case. This set the rumor mill wild as there was much talk that Logan was involved in the murders. He was jailed for a week or so and a secondary search of his land was conducted. Many took this to mean that Logan was the killer. Logan was released after his probation violation hearing, which means that LE does not consider him a suspect in the murders. Furthermore, Logan always seemed an unlikely suspect for me for many reasons. Source: News reports.
There is a rumor out saying that the case against Ron Logan is completely corrupt and is being led by a man who could care less if Logan did these crimes or not. All this man wants is to see Logan destroyed. This man is another local with whom Logan had a falling out. The man has money and has long wanted to buy Logan’s 40 acres, however, Logan was never willing to sell. Logan’s property is said to be choice land with waterfalls, etc.
This man figures if he can get Logan prosecuted for murder or at least have his life ruined by these allegations, then at some point, Logan will sell his land, possibly to pay his legal bills. This man figures that ruining Ron Logan will allow this man to somehow acquire Logan’s property. Source: Source close to the families.
Three other posts in this series:
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