Discussion: Are the Riots Helping or Hurting Our Cause?

Discuss.

Ryan England: The antics of antifa and the black-bloc are a concern of mine. My issue with them isn’t so much their ideology – the endgame for the kind of society and world I’d like to see looks very much like something out of anarchist and communist theory. This has been the case for me for decades now. But going out and smashing windows and lighting trashcans on fire isn’t going to result in the democratization of capital or even garner popular support for anti-capitalist ideals.

Leftwing politics have been struggling with a serious image problem for years now. We need to think in terms of how the moderates see us. We have to stop LARPing and beware the tendency to descend into an ideological purity spiral. This has been a concern of mine going back to the 1990’s, and with the rise of the Social Justice Warrior as the Internet’s favorite punching bag, it’s only gotten worse. Shit, the annoyance they’ve caused for so many people recently is a contributing factor to Trump getting in the White House.

The Left fails because it’s an insular little clique with its own lingo and its own little subcultures, and the bulk of the population – the people who most need to know what we have to say – are put off by it. On top of that, people get expelled from Leftist circles for the most frivolous and stupid of deviations from the ideological line – the big Alt-Left groups on Facebook are constantly getting posts from newbies talking about the stupid shit they get banned from anarchist and communist groups for.

We can’t riot. We can’t smash windows. We can’t shut down campus speakers we don’t like. That’s what Milo Yiannopoulos and his ilk want us to do. Did you all know that sales of his books SKYROCKETED since the Berkeley riots? He’s laughing all the way to the bank because of what happened, and many thousands – hundreds of thousands – more people who otherwise wouldn’t have otherwise have become interested in and even sympathetic with Milo’s thought. Goading dumb Leftists into doing dumb stuff is Milo’s whole business model. Why would we want to feed it?

We can’t sucker punch Nazis – not unless it’s clear that they’re out to cause trouble, and they were at one time. I remember Nazi skinhead gangs. They were bad news. You need antifa to deal with that. But socking a goofy civvy in the face, even one who has Nazi views, might make us feel good but also makes us look bad. Maybe not bad in our own books, but bad to the Average Joe whose long-term decision on whether to go Right or Left may ultimately hinge on which faction abstains from needless violence. Notice that the rightwingers stand off or even retreat when the shit hits the fan now and let the Left make asses of themselves? They’ve learned their lessons and are playing a long game here.

If Leftists keep rioting, we’ll burn not just our colleges and neighborhoods to the ground. We’ll burn our futures to the ground as well. We have to stop it. We have to stop LARPing, we have to present ourselves in a calm and rational manner so that our critiques of Trump and the deeper historical materialist ideas that our critiques are rooted in get taken seriously.

I am unsure.  The peaceful protests and even the property-destroying riots and Trumpster-assaulting riots are not increasing Trump’s popularity or decreasing the popularity of our side.

Yes, there are posts on Trump groups by people saying, “I am on your side now!” but most of them we don’t want on our side anyway. I am inclined to say, “Go vote for the Right!” for these people. A lot of these people call themselves moderates, but in the US, that means, “Trump and the Republicans are right 50% of the time.” That’s not moderate.

Since January 26, support for our side has gone up 3 points and support for Trump has fallen by 7 points. So even the violent riots are not hurting us yet. As long as they are not hurting us, I’m not inclined to support the argument that we need to stop this stuff because we are turning people off. In fact, we may even be converting some people. Antifas went to the Women’s March and tries to explain why they were rioting in DC on Jan. 20 (mostly property damage) and they said some of the liberal women were saying, “Well, maybe so. Maybe it needs to come to that.”

A lot of others on the Left, not just Leftists but often regular liberals, are acting nuts now too.

Sarah Silverman called for a military coup to oust Trump.

Kaine just told Americans to “take it to the streets.” This is being framed by the Opposition as a call for street violence.

Police refused to make even one arrest for the Berkeley riots. The mayor apparently gave them a stand-down order. There are photos of hundreds of police standing around doing nothing on the second floor of the Student Union while the Opposition is getting pummeled outside. They let the vandalism go on and not one person was arrested for a lot of serious assaults on Trumpsters. It sure looks like the police are implicitly saying they will not interfere when people smash stuff and beat up the Opposition. Few if any prominent liberals have even criticized the Berkeley riots, and the media is pretty much blacking them out, which is tacit acceptance at least for media cover-up.

I have not seen the Left so activated since the 1970’s. The anarchists themselves say that anarchism has never been so popular.

There are regular calls to assassinate Trump. Madonna practically threatened to blow up the White House. A BLM speaker the other day advocating “Killing people…killing the White House.”#killtrump tags have appeared in the 10,000’s on Twitter. There are so many that I am certain that the SS is hardly investigating them. There are SS agents themselves saying they will not protect him from assassin.

And Trump’s actions by themselves are quite violent. So we are comparing the structural violence of Trump with the street violence of antifa. I must say Trump’s violence is worse. Until it can be shown that these riots are objectively hurting us, I won’t agree with an argument that they are bad tactics due to decreasing our support and driving support to the Opposition.

22 Comments

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22 responses to “Discussion: Are the Riots Helping or Hurting Our Cause?

  1. Enjoy your civil war. The USA will be a third world country by the end.

    I really don’t think anyone can win now, the social fabric has been rotten for too long.

    On a side note, which interrelates to this, I notice in online discussions just how easy it is for someone to attack someone else from the same nation, the same community, even for protecting their mutual interests? It’s always been there, but its escalated over the last 10 years. Not just with big arguments, even little ones. I argue against foreign residential investment because of the difficulty this creates for people here, and AUSTRALIANs argue against me? They gain nothing from this investment (except being outcompeted by grey money), but because of some moral belief, they think I’m some horrid statist, or commie, or nazi, or racist

    I can’t help but think this is indicative of a deeper social issue, namely that there is no real sense of cohesion or unified direction. There is a pervasive scepticism which pretty much prevents people from recognising that there are common interests to work towards. Any proclamation of interest in an issue is automatically seen as an aggressive statement. Even if that is objectively and empirically for the countries benefit (and may only cost some foreign millionaires overseas a lost opportunity to hide money), the mere statement is seen as a call to arms.

    This just didn’t seem to happen as much decades ago. Sure, there have always been people who have been against the establishment, against a system, but I don’t think its ever been this better.

    You want to protect the environment, so future generations can thrive? Commie! You’re not happy with Capitalists exploiting labour by shifting it en masse here, or shifting jobs there? Protectionist! Nazi! Commie! Support welfare so people don’t starve? Statist! Commie! There are AnCaps who would consider you immoral for suggesting that parents have a legal obligation to look after their children. Think that vaccines to prevent mass childhood death are good? Well, you’re in on the government conspiracy. You think that perhaps its not such a good idea to let in 1 million people pouring in from the Middle East, because of the attacks you’ve noted? Think that some control is necessary to protect your fellow woman? There is someone who will literally bash your skull in about that.

    So what I see occurring, is a result of this, not Trump or SJWs or Fascism. I don’t think Trump is Hitler, nor a Fascist (yet, though fascism is a response to these social conditions), but hes triggered something in a broken society. This is symptomatic of a declining, dying empire. I don’t give it too much longer

    • ASSEMBLY LINE Chinese are not the only wrench in the Australia machine. Vietnamese have brought heroin, human trafficking, extortion and of course bought businesses.

      Turks and Lebanese and Balkans Europeans have also made a mixed impact.

      Chinese are not the ONLY one element.

  2. R.L.

    definitely hurting the cause. These rioters have the culture on their side and police protection to boot. If either of those are lifted those vegans are going to have a devil of a time trying to survive.

  3. Jason Y

    The extreme cultural right agenda of Trump along with his vulgar, crude personality that makes Joe Pesci seem decent are enough to push the left over the edge.

    Note, Pence, his VP, would make the left angry but he lacks the vulgarity of Trump being a real deal boy scout type.

  4. Jason Y

    They very well may get their coup. There is a 50 percent chance or more of Trump not making it thru the term. You have allegations of crime, Russian hacking of the election, and some have noted his eating habits are unhealthy.

    However, Pence could be far more dangerous cause his right-wing Christian stuff is genuine and under its cover, he would push the same stuff Trump is, but with an angelic face.

  5. Jason Y

    One wild scenario could involve the right doing him in, due to the fact that a death is more heroic than a resignation. Next, Pence would step in, Mr. Holy Warrior, and while hated by the left, would have massive respect, and not phony respect like Trump, from the right.

  6. Wild scenario indeed. Never happen. Pence has his eye on 2020 or 2024.

    He is somewhat more moderate than Trump and just wants to bide his time.

    • Pool Boy

      He won’t win in 2024.

      As we saw before a party ‘mandate’ basically has to end at 8 or at most 12 years.
      Trump will be succeeded by a democratic dark horse in 2024 if not 2020. Or Liz Warren may beat him, but personality/charisma wise she may be Hillary 2.0

    • Jason Y

      I don’t think he’s more moderate at all. He’s a real deal altar-boy, SS officer etc.. On the other hand, Trump is more of a slimy coward. Note that Trump wussed out of Vietnam. He switches sides on positions and generally his whole life and campaign has been corrupt and full of crime.

      • Jason Y

        Generally, Trump is a rich playboy. Obviously he’s not like Pence and of course, unlike with Pence, it’s difficult to sell him to the general public and especially right-wing types looking for a King Arthur type.

  7. Pool Boy

    TRASH you predicted how Trump would win; by ironically driving up his share of NAMs just cuz he’s big and bold.

    So do you think Elizabeth Warren is electable?

    • POOL BOY

      I left the United States in the late 1990’s when Clinton was President and it would seem to me that everything is sort of a result of Gore not getting elected in 2000.

      One unavoidable fact is that Red and Blue States no longer share any cultural values. This was not quite as extreme in the 1990’s.

      Another is that in the 1990’s Leftists were not identified so much as gays, minorities, feminist extremists, anarchists. They were white working-class people left nibbling at the garbage of trickle-down economics in the Reagan Era who identified with Arkansas Clinton a poor white trash motherf*cker by birth.

      Obama was elected because Bush and the GOP were seen as having plunged the U.S. into war, deficit, recessions and divide. Clinton benefitted from a prosperous post Cold War decade but the reality is that Obama was a reaction to Bush.

      My feeling is that some Democrat will rise in reaction to Trump and the next 8 years of marginalization.

      • Yee

        Don’t worry, Steve Bannon said USA would go to war with China in the next few years.

        If we no longer exist on the face of the earth, all your problems will disappear. Maybe I should start making plans to move to Yunnan province where missiles can’t reach.

        • YEE

          Do you really believe that white Americans who have two children families or Chinese families with one child want to die over the worthless drug-addled fatherless-child spewing lying stealing Malays of Philippines or Taiwan hills who lie around in drunken stupor all day?

          Are their wretched countries worth anything to anyone?

          Run economically by Chinese-born nationals anyhow?

          This is all for peasants to get nationalistic in order to avoid facing the reality of their existence.

          “To big to fail” are the American companies in China and American peasants cannot afford to pay more for Wal-Mart. They do not want to do without so that they can buy less that is made in America.

          All rubbish for public consumption while Chinese businessmen gamble in Trump Casinos.

        • Yee

          A religion fanatic can’t be analyzed rationally.

          Steve Bannon sounds very much like a religion fanatic. Is he an Anglo-Saxon?

  8. YEE

    Filipinos detest the United States anyhow. Every American knows this. The President calls our leaders sons of prostitutes and wants nothing to do with the U.S.

    Everybody in the U.S. knows this.

    America could not even beat Iraq. Chinese troops and weapons defeated Americans in Vietnam.

    Can he convince 100,000 normal rational human beings to die for him?

    Probably for no purpose or gain.

    • Yee

      Not necessary for the Philippines. War is the most effective way to restore industry. Anti-China is always a favorite of everyone. There’re always ways to sell a war. General public is easy to manipulated.

      Perhaps I should start counting ships for logistic and munitions manufacturing capacity to estimate how long the war can last.

    • Jason Y

      I’ve not seen that they ALL detest the US, but I cannot say the same for South Korea. There are some anti-American Filipinos, but even those people don’t bother a person much unless you make them angry, say you don’t pay the tour guide anything or enough.

  9. YEE

    America ended up trillions of dollars in debt from Iraq. Trillions. No oil and Iran seems to have taken the country over anyhow.

    Pray tell how a long war in the Philippines for natives who really have no love for white people and are in fact more or less economically ruled by Chinese anyhow is going to benefit the United States.

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