“The ‘Negro Problem’ Re-evaluated,” by Phil

In the New World and Pre-Colonies alike, efforts were made by Europeans to try to advance Blacks to a European level, which was to be achieved though granting new opportunities in Black  societies or instruction via missionaries. Needless to say, overall the results were very much wanting in light of the expectations of the Blacks’ patrons.

Some may claim hindsight bias or that this was to be expected, but it should be remembered this was during a time when, though on occasion challenged up to the early 20th century, racial science was fairly well accepted in regard to innate distinctions (or at least more thoroughly defended during Galton’s age). However there is a perspective that suggests that advancement is indeed possible, though it deviates from traditional projects.

Before I reveal what that might be, we must understand what went wrong with the initial civilization attempts.

Culture:

Much of the efforts put into “civilizing” Blacks by Christian missionaries were based on literary schooling and the building the consciousness of a God from afar that will punish your sins in the future. For the most part however, most of the natives weren’t very compelled to change their behavior by this fear, and even with the customs Blacks did adopt, they were not applied with the same “spirit” as Europeans did.

A very peculiar and important trait of the Negroes, heretofore entirely overlooked, but repeatedly observed by Ellis, is that they do not concern themselves about any god that is exalted to a very great distance above them. Among the Negroes of the Sudan the gods that are far off are not worshiped at all while those near at hand, and ever ready to inflict immediate punishment command the most respect and obedience. The Christian God is represented as being too far away; and since the punishment which he inflicts will not be visited upon the Negroes until after their death, they do not think much of the consequences of their conduct. They have not the necessary foresight for such remote calculations.

The native religion has the merit of furnishing deities that are believed in, understood and feared, and they act so powerfully upon the Negroes that they seldom violate their own moral code. Now, it is very evident that if faith in their native religion is destroyed and another religion substituted which they do not comprehend and which they interpret to be mere conformity to ceremony and routine, their moral character will not only fail to develop to a higher plane but sink to a much lower one. And that is precisely the result of much missionary preaching.

The Negro Races: A Sociological Study, Volume 1 p. 427-428.

At first it might seem that social diffusion would render it impossible to advance Blacks, but that’s not quite the case, as we shall see below.

The reason of the success of Mohammedanism among the blacks is that it does not effect a radical modification of native institutions. The Mussulman does not, as the Christian missionary, attempt, as the first thing to antagonize old doctrines and infuse new ones, but he begins by living among the natives working and trading among them. He is unobtrusive and tolerant and thus the natives convert themselves by imitation. Whatever other objections may be raised against Mohammedanism the truth of Sevin’s statement cannot be questioned to wit that it is certainly a step towards civilization.

The Negro Races: A Sociological Study, Volume 1, p. 452.

Now for the differences in Black behavior between the two major religions, Islam and Christianity, the evidence is bountiful, with this passage possibly being one of the earliest:

“The Negroes possess some admirable qualities. They are seldom unjust, and have a greater abhorrence of injustice than any other people. Their sultan shows no mercy to anyone who is guilty of the least act of it. There is complete security in their country. Neither traveler nor inhabitant in it has anything to fear from robbers or men of violence. They do not confiscate the property of any white man who dies in their country, even if it be uncounted wealth. On the contrary, they give it into the charge of some trustworthy person among the whites, until the rightful heir takes possession of it. They are careful to observe the hours of prayer, and assiduous in attending them in congregations, and in bringing up their children to them.

On Fridays, if a man does not go early to the mosque, he cannot find a corner to pray in, on account of the crowd. It is a custom of theirs to send each man his boy [to the mosque] with his prayer-mat; the boy spreads it out for his master in a place befitting him [and remains on it] until he comes to the mosque. Their prayer-mats are made of the leaves of a tree resembling a date-palm, but without fruit.

Another of their good qualities is their habit of wearing clean white garments on Fridays. Even if a man has nothing but an old worn shirt, he washes it and cleans it, and wears it to the Friday service. Yet another is their zeal for learning the Koran by heart. They put their children in chains if they show any backwardness in memorizing it, and they are not set free until they have it by heart. I visited the qadi in his house on the day of the festival. His children were chained up, so I said to him, ‘Will you not let them loose?’ He replied, ‘I shall not do so until they learn the Koran by heart’.”

Ibn Battuta: Travels in Asia and Africa 1325-1354.

And more:

“Judging by the conduct of those Negroes who were the most regular attendants at the Methodist chapel, I am unwillingly driven to the belief that the Methodist missions have done little for the cause of true religion, and have rather helped to foster dangerous delusion. The Methodists I fear have done harm for they have diffused a general feeling among the Negro population that abstaining from dancing, from drinking (a vice by the way which Negroes are rarely prone to), and a certain phraseology, which is mere form on their part, is Christianity.

Now it would be much better if the Negroes were taught that lying, stealing, cruelty to each other, or the brute creation, slander, and disobedience were sins in the sight of God, rather than level their anathemas against dancing-the favorite, and let me say, the innocent, recreation of the negroes; unless when it trenches as it sometimes does upon the sacredness of the Sabbath.

Domestic Manners and Social Condition of the Population of the West Indies , by Mrs. Carmichael.

However, it must be acknowledged that Islam is, well, Islam. This was noted by G. T. Basden:

….Or again compare the statements of another student many years experience in Northern Nigeria who says in his notes upon the Nupe kingdom and the effects its adoption of Islam.

Mohammedanism has introduced no new manufactures, has drenched the country with blood, has destroyed numberless towns and villages, and has as far as one can learn, distinctly lowered the morals of the people. True it has introduced a better idea of justice by creating the office judge as distinct from that of a king, and we must also place to the credit of Islam the beginnings of the idea of education.

It is also a distinct gain to the people that they have been taught the idea of a life beyond the grave, and of rewards and punishments after this life is over. On the other side must be placed the degradation of womanhood that has followed the introduction of Islam. The average pagan Negro has his own ideas as to the of women, but there is nothing to prevent woman from rising by her industry or ability to high positions. But Mohammedanism changes all this and has a distinctly lower position in a Mohammedan than she occupies among pagans.

Among the Ibos of Nigeria by George Thomas Basden

Genetics:

Something that I think will challenge many peoples’ views of Blacks is the idea that Blacks are not monolithic in behavior. Indeed, with actual slaves who were imported to the West, different tribes were noted to have different attributes.

Of character among the Negro tribes.

The Eboe is crafty artful disputative driving a bargain and suspicious of over reached by those with whom he deals, but withal patient industrious saving tractable. The Coromantee is on the fierce violent and revengeful injury and provocation but hardy laborious and manageable under mild and just treatment. This tribe has generally been at head of all insurrections and was the parent stock of the Maroons. The Congo, Papaw, Chamba, Mandingo &c are of more mild and peaceable disposition than Coromantee, but less industrious and than the Eboe.

The Literary Gazette and Journal of Belles Lettres, Arts, Sciences p. 551

But we still have to deal with the problem of the consistency of some of these descriptions, in part due to regions being confused with or substituted for tribal names. Thus “Eboe” can refer to either Biafran slaves, people from anywhere in SE Nigeria, or a tribe of slaves from the Bight of Benin. Another factor in this confusion was variation within tribes, even with the Mandingo, which was a more consistent tribal name.

As for the rest, virtues vary according to the districts occupy. In Bambuk they are warlike, the Upper Senegal they are more peaceful, but deceiving and thievish, on the Manza and Gambia they are swaggering foul.

The Standard Natural History, Volume 6 edited by John Sterling Kingsley and Elliott Coues p.329

In order, these would correspond to East Senegal/ Mali, North Senegal, and the coastal regions/ Gambia. This makes sense because the desert is harsh and would support violent nomadic lifestyles. This shows that how interior of Senegal, being a more even woodland/ savannah area, and the Gambia being part savannah and swamp-like, would affect natural selection in these groups.

A second factor could be Eurasian ancestry, but that’s most relevant to pastoralists – Chadic expansionists like the Fulani, who average 8-15% Eurasian (varies by region). The Wolof and similar tribes have been found to have only 2-3%  Eurasian admixture, possibly derived from the Bafour people, who were described as “Fulani-like.” Razib Khan found that in the Mandinka, the Eurasian intervals were between 0-5%.

Other genetic sources in US Blacks could be from Southeast Bantu, Cushitic, Semitic, and South Asian components, and though each varies by tribe, none of these groups are very significant in African-Americans as a whole. One exception was the Mota Study, but its results were dubious due to errors in calculating the spread.

This post addresses the study’s inconsistencies as well as other admixture results.

Now, it does beg the question of why aren’t the personality disparities as evident as they were in the past? Well, one factor could be that even in the Carolinas and Georgia where Senegambian slaves were preferred, the highest single ethnicity by DNA is West Central Nigerian, at least maternally. And overall, West Central DNA also dominates.

That’s not automatically bad in terms of genetic attributes, though this means that the best groups work with would be the Mandingos of the Upper Senegal or the Kru of Coastal Liberia, though inland they were more disposed to violence, hence the recent coup de etat).

Application:

One notion we should dismiss would be Blacks becoming in any sense “White” outside of contributions due to White admixture. This wouldn’t be likely even with the best “stock” such as the Krus. Regarding the Krus, you can look them up in any book, and they were held among most industrious, intelligent, and moral Blacks, who also lacked any significant non-Black admixture, if their features are to speak for them.

The flat nose, the high cheekbones, the yellow eyes, the chalky teeth pointed like the shark’s, the Erotruded like that of a dog monkey combine to form an unusual amount of ugliness.

Their features are distinctly African without a mixture of Arab; the conjunctiva is brown yellow or tarnished a Hamitic peculiarity, and some paint white goggle-like ovals round the orbits, producing the effect of a loop. This is sometimes done for sickness, and individuals are rubbed over with various light and dark colored powders. The skin is very dark, often lamp black others are of a deep rich brown or bronze tint, but a light complexioned man is generally called Tom Coffee.

The back of the cranium is often remarkably flat, and I have seen many heads of the pyramidal shape rising narrow and ported high to the apex.

The Uncivilized Races of Men in All Countries of the World, Volume 1, p. 545

In other words, a flat nose, prognathism, and dark skin. However, what should be noted here is that their heads were flatter than the average as opposed to the more typical elongation of the skull. Brachycephalic heads are indicative of Guineanid Blacks, better known as “Paleo-Negroids”.

But back to the tribe. They’ve been noted to succeed fairly well in adopting European customs, that is until they rejoined others from their homeland.

Very interesting is the fact that these Kroo negroes who, at a distance from their home, seem fully capable of civilization, sink back into their former barbarism on their return to their native land. While they readily acquire foreign languages, and at times give proof of a real attachment and devotion to Europeans in foreign countries on returning home. They take the greatest pains to forget their acquirements as soon as possible, and woe to the European that ventures into their country. However well they may have been treated, they nearly always, after a few years, quit the service of the whites in order to return to their barbarous condition in their native place. So little attraction has our much vaunted civilization for these children of nature!

Africa by Keith Johnston p. 131

With that said though, as a culture, the Krus were comparatively advanced among SSA populations. They partook in some savage practices related to paganism, though they weren’t the typical image of crude savagery, hence the term barbarism. In a true anthropological sense, it’s used to describe societies that bear semblance to fully developed civilization but have the cruder or more primitives aspects accentuated.

What I’m getting at is that, unless in the unlikely event that Whites want groups of Black living next to them so the Whites can influence them, preparations should be made by blacks to generate an culture of reasonably adaptable standards that will at the same time gradually select for preferred skills to improve the society.

Education, for example, should at least partially focus on life skills in morale similar to the religious teachings of Malian Blacks described by Battuta.

From what my father told me, Black education prior to the scholastic focus of integrated schools taught “life” to Black students. Cultural norms and trades were focused on more than actual “book learning”.

In addition, policies that enforce “compulsion” should be laid out. Commenter Sam describes how crucial this is here.

In order to get Blacks to improve their station in life, a focus should be on active practitioners of Christianity, as they already lead a lifestyle that has led to positive results.

Regionally speaking, Blacks in the South seem to have less animosity and to be more developed in a positive sense. That’s not saying that Black pathology doesn’t exist there, but rather that the South has a stronger Black Christian culture than other regions, which is aided by the less crowded rural setting. The murder and incarceration rates in the South as compared to other areas seem to reflect this improved culture. What is interesting about this is that relative to the rest of the country, not only does the region contain more Blacks, but also the Blacks there are significantly blacker than elsewhere as well.

So if such a a better Black culture and social organization could be developed, it along with a selection against individuals less prone to compulsion may improve the standard of Black living by tackling the roots of Black pathologies from a sociological perspective.

91 Comments

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91 responses to ““The ‘Negro Problem’ Re-evaluated,” by Phil

  1. I apologize for the quality of this piece and it’s tardiness. This was meant to be posted in september, but much editing was required since it was rushed.

    While much better it still contains flaws so ask me anything if a concept seems unclear.

    One thing to note was that I meant to say in the first observation that they didn’t have the same spirit as Europeans when adopting their customs.

  2. James Schipper

    Dear Robert

    If black behavior were determined solely by their genes, they wouldn’t be part of the human species. All humans are cultural beings in the sense that they create a set of beliefs, customs and values, which then shape their conduct to some extent. In Latin America, evangelical churches often succeed in reducing crime, drunkenness, adultery and domestic violence among their members, including blacks.

    Also, as with everybody else, black behavior is to some extent influenced by the set of awards and punishments that they face. It is just hopelessly simplistic to say that blacks will just be blacks.

    Regards. James

    • “If black behavior were determined solely by their genes, they wouldn’t be part of the human species. All humans are cultural beings in the sense that they create a set of beliefs, customs and values, which then shape their conduct to some extent.”

      Yet that is based on selection of genes based on the pressures exterted by their landscape.

      “In Latin America, evangelical churches often succeed in reducing crime, drunkenness, adultery and domestic violence among their members, including blacks.”

      Hence a different pressure landscape.

    • JAMES Why did Catholicism fail and evangelical sects succeed in Latin America?

      • James Schipper

        Dear TRASH

        The Catholic Church is a very clergy-centered institution. If it is to have a significant impact in society, it should have a high ratio of priests to population. In Latin America, it doesn’t and it never did. For instance, when Brazil had 180 million inhabitants, its clergy had only 16,000 members, not even 1 priest per 10,000 people. When the communists took over Cuba, there were only 600 priests for a population of 6 million. Even Argentina has no more than 5,000 priests for a population of 40 million.

        Of course, the next question should be: Why don’t more Latin American men want to become priests? The answer can only be that the overall level of piety is not very high in Latin American countries. We have a vicious circle here. A low-level piety leads to a small clergy, and a small clergy will insure that piety will remain low.

        The evangelicals have plenty of pastors, and their pastors are assisted by lay pastors. In Latin America, an evangelical can much more easily count on pastoral care than a Catholic. Moreover, evangelical churches are much more democratic. They often resemble mutual-support groups. Together and with the help of hands-on pastors, it is easier for evangelicals to stay on the path of virtue.

        It can’t be denied that many evangelical leaders are like rapacious entrepreneurs. For instance, Edir Macedo the head of Igreja Universal do Reino de Deus, is one of the richest men in Brazil. He owns a private jet and lives in a sumptuous palace. However, if you divide the high income of the church leaders by the number of their followers, the quantity isn’t that high.

        I can foresee that most Latin American countries will have an evangelical majority some time in this century. In Brazil, the evangelical share of the population grew from 15% to 22% in only one decade.

        Regards. James

  3. Jason Y

    Again,2 to 3 percent of black males in prison out of a population of 18 million and 27 percent of all black Americans living in poverty, not sure how that translates to crime numbers though (I mean crime that doesn’t lead one to prison.)

    In the New World and Pre-Colonies alike, efforts were by Europeans to try to advance Blacks to a European level, which was to be achieved though offering new granting new opportunities in Black societies or instruction via missionaries. Needless to say, overall the results were very much wanting in light of the expectations of the Blacks’ patrons.

    And also, and especially after the invention of the cotton gin, this so called helpful bondage (helpful to the blacks) was also even more helpful to rich plantation owners.

    In order to get Blacks typically to improve their station in life, focus should be placed on active practitioners of Christianity, as they already lead lifestyle that has positive results.

    You mean the ones who were already genetically programmed to become Christians anyway? You know trying to convert low IQ blacks is a waste of time.

    But regionally speaking, Blacks in the South seem to have less animosity and to be more developed in a positive sense. That’s not saying that Black pathology doesn’t exist, but rather there is a stronger black Christian culture there than in other regions, which is aided by the less crowded rural setting.

    The murder and incarceration rates in the South as compared to other areas seem to reflect this improved culture.

    Really? (sarcasm) Now how many of these blacks were pre-programmed by genetics to be Christians, and how many are just run of the mill “good for nothing” negroes who gave their soul to Jesus?

    Again, we see a massive environmental influence (Christian culture) which in comments on other posts, you deny.

    • Jason Y

      The next thing coming is some statement saying some sort of evolutionary upward trend is going on among black southern Christians, when it sure as hell is not.😆

      Again, you got genetics, and then you got the environment which molds it. That’s how it really works.

    • JASON Y

      North of Dixie blacks are surrounded by strange and unsympathetic/disinterested Europeans who share no cultural similarities.

    • JASON Y Once you are in a Northern city with no industrial base and no money to look elsewhere for work or job training regardless of your religiosity.

    • “You mean the ones who were already genetically programmed to become Christians anyway? You know trying to convert low IQ blacks is a waste of time.”

      Yes, I meant those who would be ideal in being dominant in selective pressures of a genetic landscape.

      “Really? (sarcasm) Now how many of these blacks were pre-programmed by genetics to be Christians, and how many are just run of the mill “good for nothing” negroes who gave their soul to Jesus?

      Again, we see a massive environmental influence (Christian culture) which in comments on other posts, you deny.”

      Yet I pointed out in my article how just “teaching them” Christianity doesn’t work, when introduced in a way that could actually alter their genetic landscape it does over time with selection. I win.

      “The next thing coming is some statement saying some sort of evolutionary upward trend is going on among black southern Christians, when it sure as hell is not.😆”

      Except that I noted in my article that such a conclusion would be hasty, learn to read Jason.

      “Again, you got genetics, and then you got the environment which molds it. That’s how it really work.”

      Except I show it’s not that simple.

      “Phil has to now prove that the black southern Christians have an overall IQ that is greater than the ones who choose to drink the gin and juice. OK, let’s see the numbers.”

      Except I didn’t say it was IQ they had an advantage in, it was overall sociological behavior based on their genetic landscape.

      If I said IQ, I would’ve said it.

      “However, even if the Christians have higher IQs, it might just prove that an improved environment (a Christian one) actually moves the IQ up, not selective breeding.”

      That would be more generally a result of selective pressures, not simply breeding.

      BTW, they seem to be indeed higher in IQ at least with Unitarians.

      https://notpoliticallycorrect.me/2015/11/28/response-to-daily-stormer-article-black-africans-are-genetically-closer-to-bonobos-than-to-white-humans/#comment-12

      • Jason Y

        Yet I pointed out in my article how just “teaching them” Christianity doesn’t work, when introduced in a way that could actually alter their genetic landscape it does over time with selection. I win.

        How much is really a genetic landscape, and how much is just old fashioned rebellion? In my family, one brother is a CEO of a company, but his sister (who has struggled with drugs from hanging with bad crowds) has nothing except backpay from social security disability.

        • “How much is really a genetic landscape, and how much is just old fashioned rebellion? In my family, one brother is a CEO of a company, but his sister (who has struggled with drugs from hanging with bad crowds) has nothing except backpay from social security disability.”

          If it’s rebellion, why did they do the nominal practices when taught but none of the desired effect you ramble on about?

          Second, how does non-monozygotic siblings prove anything?

          “Breeding has nearly zero to do with anything.” Oh…so you were kidding when you talked about inbreeding a year back?

          “I still say most people are bad due to the environment, not genetics. Note, the 80 to 90 IQ range of blacks doesn’t always translate to evil when Christianity is present.”

          Likely due to behavioral variance in traits if any deviation exist.

          “Also, the Christian blacks have not risen thier IQ above the black norm. Do you have any links to prove otherwise?”

          I did with Unitarians, but not trying to say Christianity magically raises IQ, but the pressures it creates selects for it. Even then I was not talking specifically about IQ, but overall behavior which does include other traits.

          Also When I said Christians, I meant actual active pracitioners that have truly embraced the morals and not just the practices.

          “OK, so what is the average IQ of black Christians? Is it higher than the average IQ of so called “heathen blacks”? ”

          How about you actually read my article again? My point was not just looking at IQ, but overall sociological development in terms of deviating from crime for instance which I DID give numbers for, which is aided by a rural setting,

          “Do rebellious people with average IQs, not low ones, become Christian and suddenly behave better?”

          If you mean by suppressing urges possibly as IQ does aid in that, but with a separate tendency they may either slip up in secrecy or go into sublimation.

          “Do people with low IQs become Christian and behave better and improve academically, or perhaps even raise thier IQs without breeding it out?”

          As the ethnography I quoted in my article shows, no.

        • Jason Y

          The IQs of black Americans are nearly all the same. The ones who are bad and the ones who are good generally have the same ones. Go ahead and see what the IQ of black Christians are, compared to the rowdy mean ones and see what I mean..

      • “The IQs of black Americans are nearly all the same. ”

        You gave no analysis to prove it.

        “The ones who are bad and the ones who are good generally have the same ones. Go ahead and see what the IQ of black Christians are, compared to the rowdy mean ones and see what I mean..”

        Okay, well we know a standard chronic criminal adult averagse 85 http://criminal-justice.iresearchnet.com/crime/intelligence-and-crime/3/

        That also being black average such too but likely with more variation in IQ and traits such as behavior so the means aren’t that comparable. The more violent ones are likelier of the lower IQ of such range of more or less around 80.

        Unitarians as I proved are 98.

        But why guessimate?

        https://notpoliticallycorrect.me/2016/02/28/is-there-bias-in-mental-testing/

        When controlled for IQ, the crime differences decreases by Three quarters.

  4. iffen

    The “problem” is not that American blacks cannot/will not conform to the norms of white America, it is that the % of blacks that cannot/will not is higher within the black population that it is within the white population. White trash cannot conform either, but the % of white trash in the total white population is a smaller % of the white population than the “white trash-like” black % of the black population.

    • Jason Y

      They won’t conform because of the lousy environment. But we see that Christianity can help some blacks and also some whites.

      The “problem” is not that American blacks cannot/will not conform to the norms of white America,

      Some of them won’t, but as Phil pointed out, the ones that have become Christian have actually obtained a sort of civilization.

      • iffen

        “They won’t conform because of the lousy environment.”
        I haven’t seen any definitive answers on whether it is environment or genes in a particular case. It is an eternal question. How much of me is me and how much of me is my group?

        • Jason Y

          I haven’t seen any definitive answers on whether it is environment or genes in a particular case. It is an eternal question. How much of me is me and how much of me is my group?

          Phil claims he has an answer to that question, but I think he is still off the mark.

        • To Jason, well I’m glad to argue otherwise.

      • “They won’t conform because of the lousy environment. But we see that Christianity can help some blacks and also some whites.”

        I’ve pretty much proved in my first half simply giving them “Christ” doesn’t work.

        “Some of them won’t, but as Phil pointed out, the ones that have become Christian have actually obtained a sort of civilization.”

        When the selective landscape in form as it did with Islam.

        • Jason Y

          Breeding has nearly zero to do with anything. I still say most people are bad due to the environment, not genetics. Note, the 80 to 90 IQ range of blacks doesn’t always translate to evil when Christianity is present. Also, the Christian blacks have not risen thier IQ above the black norm. Do you have any links to prove otherwise?

    • IFFEN It is doubtful that you could conform to BLACK NORMS:

      Having a baby when you are 17.

      Not care if you do 30 years in a tiny cell smelling a roommates shit because you killed somebody for looking at you a way you do not like.

      Have the sex drive to father children with/satisfy 4 different women.

      Enjoy “Soul Food” such as Chitlans.

      Dance like they do.

      Possess a 10 – 12 inch penis.

      • iffen

        You are not very well informed.

        Most of the items that you mention are not “black norms.” Some are characteristics of the present day lower class black sub-culture in the US. These behaviors were not prevalent in the past in the black community and are becoming more prevalent today in the white lower class. Since in recent history such behavior was not predominate in the black sub-culture and since the white underclass is rapidly approaching some sort of “equality” in said behaviors it is not possible for it to be inherent within the black race and excluded from the white one.

        You also throw in a couple of racial stereotype myths.

        I have enjoyed, and do enjoy, so-called “Soul Food,” and resent like hell the cultural appropriation of “my” food. (However, pig ear sandwiches taste like crap.)

        • Tulio

          A lot of what we call bad black behavior among black Americans has its origins in traditional Scots-Irish culture, even down to grammar patterns.

        • “A lot of what we call bad black behavior among black Americans has its origins in traditional Scots-Irish culture, even down to grammar patterns.”

          I’m somewhat afraid you’re referring to the theory proposed by Thomas Sowell. While the groups likely exchanged customs, I’m pretty sure the global trend of “bad black behavior” can’t be contributed to that.

          Though if you mean actually expression of it and not causative factors, then that’s quite possible.

        • Jason Y

          Some of the Scotch-Irish are indeed, in your face, rowdy people. Again, we see another massive environmental factor, a culture picked up by the black Americans at some point.

        • Jason Y

          For one proof look at Sam J. on here.😆

      • Jason Y

        Trash is bringing up BLACK NORMS. Again, and we see Phil isn’t the only one in the dark on here, someone is claiming ALL blacks are bad when statistically only 2 to 3 percent of black males are behind bars, and only 27 percent of all blacks are even below the poverty line.

        Note, I didn’t say Phil said ALL blacks were bad, but Phil is misinformed on some thngs, like Trash is, who though comical, is often dead wrong.

        • Trash is bringing up BLACK NORMS. Again, and we see Phil isn’t the only one in the dark on here, someone is claiming ALL blacks are bad when statistically only 2 to 3 percent of black males are behind bars, and only 27 percent of all blacks are even below the poverty line.”

          Except that 2 to 3 percent doesn’t tell us the actual population that perform such deeds, just the ones caught.

          “Note, I didn’t say Phil said ALL blacks were bad, but Phil is misinformed on some thngs, like Trash is, who though comical, is often dead wrong.”

          You sure as hell failed to point that out.

        • Jason Y

          Except that 2 to 3 percent doesn’t tell us the actual population that perform such deeds, just the ones caught.

          “Note, I didn’t say Phil said ALL blacks were bad, but Phil is misinformed on some thngs, like Trash is, who though comical, is often dead wrong.”

          You sure as hell failed to point that out.

          Just the ones caught ??? What’s that supposed to mean? It seems like your in denial about facts this time, not me.

        • “Just the ones caught ??? What’s that supposed to mean? It seems like your in denial about facts this time, not me.”

          No, it’s your lack of understanding how to interpret data (knowing you though, it;s expected you would be put of practice).

          Tell me Jason, you literally said 2-3% bars…that only tells you how many are incarcerated for crimes, not how much actually do it.

          And again, disproportionate crime rates paints the picture of the stereotype.

          http://www.dailywire.com/news/7441/7-statistics-you-need-know-about-black-black-crime-aaron-bandler#modal

        • Jason Y

          The cops are quite good at catching criminals. 2 to 3 percent could approach the real numbers of actual criminals. ALSO NOTE, blacks, due to lower IQ, are MORE LIKELY TO GET CAUGHT. Not my words, but taken from the mouth of HBD people.

        • “The cops are quite good at catching criminals. 2 to 3 percent could approach the real numbers of actual criminals. ALSO NOTE, blacks, due to lower IQ, are MORE LIKELY TO GET CAUGHT. Not my words, but taken from the mouth of HBD people.”

          But you’re forgetting something Jason, what about urreported crimes?

          http://www.citypaper.com/news/mobtownbeat/bcpnews-why-are-black-women-less-likely-to-report-rape-20150609-story.html

          https://www.bjs.gov/content/pub/pdf/vnrp0610.pdf page 16, blacks are nearly twice as likely not to report a crime than whites and twice as likely not to due to reprisal of the criminal.

          Again, you don’t understand data nor do you understand disproportion.

          “Of course, black nationalists are loony wackos. Phil is right about that. Note they are just like thier white nationalist counterparts. It’s all mostly a political agenda

          Since these groups don’t follow real Christianity but rather none, or some shallow fake nationalist form, they don’t believe in Original Sin<./b> in it’s harshest form For instance, do you see Catholics wailing on and on about HBD? They don’t care about it, and they’re actually a pretty un-PC group.”

          Irrelevant.

          “Phil brings up some points and research. I think though the real struggle though is to show that these facts and figures are not biased by politics.”

          You have failed to prove it.

          “Politics which is racially vain and pumps up each respective group to god-like status. In other words, saying the black culture of old was innocent and superior, or saying white men decended from Zeus😆 and savage blacks should sucking their aibino cocks for all eternity in gratitude.”

          Good luck in your vain efforts of pretending as if you were actually trying to be insightful.

    • “The “problem” is not that American blacks cannot/will not conform to the norms of white America, it is that the % of blacks that cannot/will not is higher within the black population that it is within the white population. White trash cannot conform either, but the % of white trash in the total white population is a smaller % of the white population than the “white trash-like” black % of the black population.”

      While that’s correct, when you say “white norms” I think it’s better to use an actual non relative threshold.

      I mean, for example, a northeast Asian of a representative sample in his native country would conform different from a higher class immigrant in regards to culture.

      So rather than conform I think it’s better to say “elevate”.

      • iffen

        Yes. I should have said something like American norms, but since they have been overwhelming set by white Americans, I am not far off the mark.
        If we make the assumption that higher class translates to higher IQ then everything else being equal, I agree.

        • “Yes. I should have said something like American norms, but since they have been overwhelming set by white Americans, I am not far off the mark.”

          Overall quite right. Basically I wanted to distinguish the two because the form gave the idea of an “exact” development when in reality they would be more along the lines of compatibility.

          “If we make the assumption that higher class translates to higher IQ then everything else being equal, I agree.”

          Overall yes.

    • Tulio

      I agree with this, iffen. Well put.

      • iffen

        “A lot of what we call bad black behavior among black Americans has its origins in traditional Scots-Irish culture, even down to grammar patterns.”

        This limited reply system sucks.

        Yes, scholarly types have pointed this out. Whether it is the culture or the genes or a combination or whether you think it is all the same thing, there are distinct and real commonalities between blacks and southern white Scotch-Irish. Anecdotally, I see it all the time, it is real.

  5. Jason Y

    Phil has to now prove that the black southern Christians have an overall IQ that is greater than the ones who choose to drink the gin and juice. OK, let’s see the numbers.

    However, even if the Christians have higher IQs, it might just prove that an improved environment (a Christian one) actually moves the IQ up, not selective breeding.

  6. Jason Y

    OK, so what is the average IQ of black Christians? Is it higher than the average IQ of so called “heathen blacks”? Do rebellious people with average IQs, not low ones, become Christian and suddenly behave better? Do people with low IQs become Christian and behave better and improve academically, or perhaps even raise thier IQs without breeding it out?

  7. Jason Y

    Of course, black nationalists are loony wackos. Phil is right about that. Note they are just like thier white nationalist counterparts. It’s all mostly a political agenda

    Since these groups don’t follow real Christianity but rather none, or some shallow fake nationalist form, they don’t believe in Original Sin<./b> in it’s harshest form For instance, do you see Catholics wailing on and on about HBD? They don’t care about it, and they’re actually a pretty un-PC group.

    Phil brings up some points and research. I think though the real struggle though is to show that these facts and figures are not biased by politics

    Politics which is racially vain and pumps up each respective group to god-like status. In other words, saying the black culture of old was innocent and superior, or saying white men decended from Zeus😆 and savage blacks should sucking their aibino cocks for all eternity in gratitude.

    • iffen

      Your comments are not very sensible.

      • Jason Y

        So Phil is a hateful man. With so much anger, he is also closed to the truth, as much as he claims I am.

        HBD research isn’t set in stone. It’s up to debate like any other social science.

        • “So Phil is a hateful man. With so much anger, he is also closed to the truth, as much as he claims I am.”

          What truth? That HBD can be debated? Then actually present evidence to debate rather than hypothetical BS.

          “HBD research isn’t set in stone. It’s up to debate like any other social science.”

          See above.

          “You don’t believe that various groups pump up thier own race’s image to make them seem more superior than they actually are? Wouldn’t these same narcissists want to pull facts out of HBD to promote an agenda?”

          You are not debating HBD, you are debating WNs and nationalists. Do that all you want, but that doesn’t change the facts that crime is disproportionate between races, genetic studies found correlates such as IQ, and IQ is important for human development.

      • Jason Y

        You don’t believe that various groups pump up thier own race’s image to make them seem more superior than they actually are? Wouldn’t these same narcissists want to pull facts out of HBD to promote an agenda?

    • Barack Thatcher

      The “facts and figures” ARE the facts.
      This is not up for debate.

      How, the facts and figures are interpreted is where politics come into play.
      For instance,’ Asians are very smart, but because they have a slightly lower verbal IQ, there un-creative and useless compared to Whites.’

      This line of thought is largely unsubstantiated, yet it accepted as fact in much of the HBD-sphere.

      There’s a reason Rhazib Khan says most “race realists” are “race mythicists”

      • Jason Y

        OK Phil, looks like you have an opponent here. He’s just saying what my perhaps autistic, idiot, blabbering mouth is trying to say, but cannot.

        So Barack Thatcher an idiot? A poor debater? Let’s see you guys hit it off.

        • Barack Thatcher

          Jason- HBD obviously is politically oriented, yes.

          But the raw data IS the raw data, and there are safeguards in academia to prevent ‘forgery’ of that data.

          Kind of reminds me of Trump supporters saying “the polls are rigged”. The pollsters may want him to lose but if you look at the raw data, it’s rock solid….just like HBD.

        • “OK Phil, looks like you have an opponent here. He’s just saying what my perhaps autistic, idiot, blabbering mouth is trying to say, but cannot.

          So Barack Thatcher an idiot? A poor debater? Let’s see you guys hit it off.”

          You are in no position to compare your idiotic, inconsistent, dishonest behavior to Barrack’s integrity.

          He has respected, engaged into my ideas, asked for clarification, informed me, among many things.

          I don;t care if he’s a closet environmentalist, he has gained my trust in terms of his intentions and character.

          I’ve said it a year ago and I’ll say it agaib, your problem isn’t your position, it’s your debate skills.

          You have verified zilch, you have disprove squat, you have accomplished nothing beyond losing more and more credibility by the day when talking to you.

        • Barack Thatcher

          Thanks Phil. I appreciate it.

          I am not an environmentalist per se, I just think there are some inconsistencies in HBD.

          For instance, somehow Native Americans/Hispanics survived in the Ice Cold New World with a low genetic IQ? Doesn’t that contradict everything about the Cold Winter selection theory? Or does it just work for Europeans and not Native Americans? It’s inconsistent, I spy political motivations to say ‘no beaners here’.

          I also am skeptical of why Europeans could be physical stronger if brute strength was selected for in Africa, over intelligence.

        • “Jason- HBD obviously is politically oriented, yes.

          But the raw data IS the raw data, and there are safeguards in academia to prevent ‘forgery’ of that data.

          Kind of reminds me of Trump supporters saying “the polls are rigged”. The pollsters may want him to lose but if you look at the raw data, it’s rock solid….just like HBD.”

          So is he hateful, calling poor latin Americans Drunks with a Political agenda Jason?

        • Barack Thatcher

          The problem with the sexual selection/ 10k year explosion theory is that if one admits ‘mutations sweeping through Eurasia’ is the cause of high IQ, it would sort of imply that change occurred from the Ice Age, for it took 35k years from ‘out of Africa’ to happen; implying sudden environmental change………just as people were crossing the Bering strait. The Native Americans were by no means ‘highly distantly isolated’ from such mutations. People would by definition, poor over until the ice age ended, and take the mutations with them.

          Native American IQ is a conundrum, yet because of “no beaners here”, it is completely ignored as a debate by HBD.

          Natives were NOT isolated during the ice age, for that’s what enabled them to come across. The mutations would have spread with people continually coming across and mating with those already here.

        • “Thanks Phil. I appreciate it.

          I am not an environmentalist per se, I just think there are some inconsistencies in HBD.

          For instance, somehow Native Americans/Hispanics survived in the Ice Cold New World with a low genetic IQ? Doesn’t that contradict everything about the Cold Winter selection theory? Or does it just work for Europeans and not Native Americans? It’s inconsistent, I spy political motivations to say ‘no beaners here’.”

          Well that like because the Cold Winters Theory just aids in the overall correlation, aided by K selection. Other factors can decrease the correlation, like occupation and spread of social landscapes such as mating techniques and forms of ogranization.

          N. Americans were described to be mostly nomadic HG, yet they still had higher IQ than those lower in the tropics. Hispanics Technically were heat adapted too after migrating from the North.

          “I also am skeptical of why Europeans could be physical stronger if brute strength was selected for in Africa, over intelligence.”

          Well…that tells you that;s and oversimplication. Exerting alot of force fast like Africans was selected but endurance and more aerobic efficient muscle fibers were selected for based on Fiber type

          RR already covered it. Actually, his notes on how it correlates to mortality, like IQ and K selection.

        • Barack Thatcher

          Okay, the K-selection is an interesting point, but that being said, the other Asians allegedly got a full does of the ‘helpful’ mutations, and they’re pretty K-selective.

          I suppose it’s possible the mutations weren’t selected for as much, because some natives were already creeping South, BUT obviously it should’ve occurred at some level, almost 100%.

          What were the mutations anyhow? Metabolism?

          Because if it’s brain size, then obviously it’s all nonsense, Native Americans have large brain size, at least far North and South.

      • “Okay, the K-selection is an interesting point, but that being said, the other Asians allegedly got a full does of the ‘helpful’ mutations, and they’re pretty K-selective.”

        I’m not sure I’m clear on what your saying, like some sort of K selection outlier of some sort?

        “I suppose it’s possible the mutations weren’t selected for as much, because some natives were already creeping South, BUT obviously it should’ve occurred at some level, almost 100%.

        What were the mutations anyhow? Metabolism?”

        Brain functions, such as brain complexity like in abstract thinking in the “higher” brain (cerebral cortex).

        “Because if it’s brain size, then obviously it’s all nonsense, Native Americans have large brain size, at least far North and South.”

        Brain size helps, but it more like “brain wiring” that makes a huge differences though the two are usually correlated.

  8. Jason Y

    Phil is just displaying the same condescending baloney that the third world elites throw at the poor in Latin America:

    “OH, I told you so MONKEY. You shouldn’t have wasted all your money on booze, so now your poor.” 😆

    Note that Robert doesn’t buy this condescending parental right wing attitude, despite any science they might use to back it up.

    Likewise, I don’t really buy Phil’s insistence that he is wise and all knowing, and that HBD is set in stone like The Ten Commandments.

    This social science is NOT set in stone. It’s just made to seem that way by some “know it alls” who want to appear smart, to put people down.

    • Barack Thatcher

      Phil- with all due respect HBD does inherently relate to a political agenda.

      It attempts to explain why some groups and people don’t generally fare well as being a function, not of oppression, but of IQ.

      Does that not strike you as political?

      • Jason Y

        My guess would be that it is a function somewhat, but also that oppression plays a major role. I have yet to prove it, but I’d say the oppression is way more powerful than the function part.

        • “My guess would be that it is a function somewhat, but also that oppression plays a major role. I have yet to prove it, but I’d say the oppression is way more powerful than the function part.”

          Quite bold considering what IQ has shown to overall relate to in behavior, country development, etc.

        • Jason Y

          OK, well note that in the nations studied where IQ is horrible, one also sees a lot of oppression

          ????

        • “OK, well note that in the nations studied where IQ is horrible, one also sees a lot of oppression

          ????”

          Because the population are easily manipulated due to IQ, remember Rob’s article on Good governments, Bad people

          https://robertlindsay.wordpress.com/2011/03/02/are-some-nations-simply-too-dumb-to-create-a-decent-society/

          http://www.prisonoffenders.com/prison_gangs.html

          “Many gang followers have low IQ’s and are easily manipulated.”

        • Jason Y

          We are running into “Which came first the chicken or the egg?” or something like that. In other words, “Who caused who?”. “Who started the chain reaction of stuff going back and forth?”. “Who threw the first rock in Gaza, the Jews or Palestinians?”

          To say the simple minded population is easily manipulated sounds like some made up crap, even coming from a well read person like yourself.

        • “We are running into “Which came first the chicken or the egg?” or something like that. In other words, “Who caused who?”. “Who started the chain reaction of stuff going back and forth?”. “Who threw the first rock in Gaza, the Jews or Palestinians?”

          No…no it isn’t. As a matter of fact science was create to avoid such paradoxes.

          BTW, in real life the egg, because before that it was just a bird very closer to being a chicken that eventually spawned one.

          “To say the simple minded population is easily manipulated sounds like some made up crap, even coming from a well read person like yourself.”

          Except I gave examples and evidence from nations to prisons.

          And jason think about it, are you saying it;s made up that a SIMPLE MINDED population can be easily manipulated? You didn’t even phrased it as IQ, you just said simple minded.

          That makes perfect sense.

        • Jason Y

          No offense but Phil, despite being well read, is just spouting a lot of typical excuses that elites (to give one example) always say to justify their rule. Saying the population are simple minded (aka. little peasants).

          “Oh those childish dumb peasants with their silly superstition and whatnot. It’s such a good thing they have the royals and knights to care for them, so they don’t destroy themselves due to their little brains😆 “

        • “No offense but Phil, despite being well read, is just spouting a lot of typical excuses that elites (to give one example) always say to justify their rule. Saying the population are simple minded (aka. little peasants).”

          No, you phrased it as simple minded. I said low IQ. You then talked about paradoxes as if investigative science doesn’t exist. I gave evidence to justify my case on the FACTS, not actions.

          “Oh those childish dumb peasants with their silly superstition and whatnot. It’s such a good thing they have the royals and knights to care for them, so they don’t destroy themselves due to their little brains😆 “

          Except that’s not what I said at all. All I did say is with a mass of low IQ people, they can be manipulated more as I have gave evidence.

    • “Phil is just displaying the same condescending baloney that the third world elites throw at the poor in Latin America:

      “OH, I told you so MONKEY. You shouldn’t have wasted all your money on booze, so now your poor.” 😆

      Note that Robert doesn’t buy this condescending parental right wing attitude, despite any science they might use to back it up.”

      When have I ever acted like that aside from actually confirming facts? When did I ever insult other because of that. If anything, that kind of behavior I hate.

      “Likewise, I don’t really buy Phil’s insistence that he is wise and all knowing, and that HBD is set in stone like The Ten Commandments.”

      Then disprove me that HBD concept are wrong, you tried already and have yet to show any improvement.

      “This social science is NOT set in stone. It’s just made to seem that way by some “know it alls” who want to appear smart, to put people down.”

      Prove it from the actual researchers, NOT the nationalistic bloggers.

      • Jason Y

        As Barack said, we can look at actual research, but more important, “How is it interpreted?”. Also actual research, itself, is often not set in stone.

        • Jason Y

          OK so Phil has done some research, but it can be torn down easily by someone smart. Now, we see Barack is tearing holes in his reasoning.

          I commend Phil for trying and I admit I’m lazy, but I am trying to raise some doubt using common sense tactics. For instance, saying, “Well, isn’t it just common sense that a political agenda is being pushed by interpreters of HBD, and maybe the researchers themselves?”

        • “OK so Phil has done some research, but it can be torn down easily by someone smart. Now, we see Barack is tearing holes in his reasoning.”

          And I have responded to him about that.

          “I commend Phil for trying and I admit I’m lazy, but I am trying to raise some doubt using common sense tactics. For instance, saying, “Well, isn’t it just common sense that a political agenda is being pushed by interpreters of HBD, and maybe the researchers themselves?””

          Except that’s all you ever do and hardly ever verify, which is what’s important. We can all be here twiddling thumbs guessing but that’s getting us nowhere.

      • Jason Y

        Latin American goons have plenty of “facts”, believe me. They are hardcore HBD. Yet Robert doesn’t care and keeps on with his hard left (though not necessarily cultural left) socialist agenda.

        • Jason Y

          Latin American goons can easily prove HBD facts, much as Phil does.

        • Barack Thatcher

          Those Latin Americans are pretty nutty.
          A lot don’t even delve into HBD, there’s some mystical, almost spiritual greatness to them being White, in fact they detest HBD.
          It’s really quite odd…..just look at Santoculto or a ‘run of the mill’ Guisano.

        • Wow…what was that about political bias? You talk alot more about nationalists and elites more than science.

          Would it be unfair to claim bias on your part?

        • Barack Thatcher

          Speaking of Latin America…..
          I got my autosomal DNA test results on Monday;

          94% European (plurality Southern European)
          02% Middle East
          02% East African
          02% NE Asian

  9. Barack Thatcher

    (((Jason)))- assuming you believe in additive heredity, there have been some tests to control for environment.
    The Minnesota adoption study is one….

    • Additive heredity though, from what I’ve read from Jayman, is just biological stuff that appears such as crossing over.

      “Phil- with all due respect HBD does inherently relate to a political agenda.

      It attempts to explain why some groups and people don’t generally fare well as being a function, not of oppression, but of IQ.

      Does that not strike you as political?”

      Yes, but it’s inevitably political as it IS talking about very relevant factors of society. But I see your point how regardless neutrality should be used, but Jason hasn’t proved it as much as he has suggested it.

      And so far no one has presented inconsistency in the prevalent concepts.

  10. iffen

    No one knows why the mean IQ is different for different groups. Evolution and selection being what it is, everyone looks for different environments as the explanation.

    • Which makes sense and you even find sequences for such factors under selective sweep for example.

      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Microcephalin#Evolution

      • Optimus Prime

        Phil, you are the best thing that has happened to this blog in years. Though most of ur stuffs are way beyond my comprehension capacity. I am still shocked at the level of knowledge and wisdom you have you possess. You’re awful smart for a black teenager. I wish I was a quarter smart when I was in my teens. Keep going Phil, u are destined for greatness

        • First I want to thank you for your kind words. They made me stop and think how much I’ve learned over the past nearly 2 years on this blog since my initial article.

          I’m no authority in Psychometrics, genetics, or history yet I cite as many as I can as learn more about the subject. To my credit I suppose my perspective is worthy to be distinguished but I hesitate to compare myself to other HBD bloggers.

          The funny thing is I don’t really possess much of a sense of superiority in regards to overall character despite what some of my assertion may lead one to believe, rather my way of dealing with irrationality has grown to be more aggressive over the years.

        • Have you donated before, Optimus? Most regular commenters donate now and again, some once a year.

        • Jason Y

          I don’t necessarily hate Phil. He should go into Psychology. However, he still wrong about certain things. So is Phil planning on going to university?>

        • “I don’t necessarily hate Phil. He should go into Psychology. However, he still wrong about certain things. So is Phil planning on going to university?>”

          Jason, if you can’t prove it, don’t say “I’m wrong”. You are certainly at liberty to say “I disagree”.

        • Jason Y

          Ok I disagree with a lot of what you say.

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