Race in Vietnamese Antiquity

Vietnam writes:

That’s wrong. Viets already looked very mongoloid (flat-faced) before the Chinese invaded their country ~ 2200 years ago. Anthropologists Mongoloid-looking people already appeared in Vietnam ~3800 years ago. After Viets broke free from China, they took Champa and Cambodia and absorded those peoples (less mongoloid-looking peoples).

Viets became much more diverse that you can see today. If you keep tracing back then every country in Asia was not mongoloid looking. Japan only started to looked mongoloid ~2500 whereas. Ainu people were roaming in northern Asia very early…Oldest mongoloid skull found in Asia is only about 7000 years old.

I do not agree with this in whole, but I do agree with it in part.

The Dabut Culture began ca. 8,000 YBP but developed from 5,000-6,500 YBP. This culture was found in the northern part of Middle Vietnam (provinces Nghe An and Ha Tinh). Radiocarbon dating for this culture gives dates from ~3,500-5,000 YBP.
Anthropological studies show that Australoid elements dominate in the skulls of Da But, Con Co Ngua, Quynh Van and Bau Du. They belong to Mongoloid-Australoid or Melanesian race.

Skulls of the Peinan culture on the southeast coast of Taiwan look very much like this and may be related. The Man Bac people were Austronesians. Man Bac skulls are classed as the Ancient SE Asians – the Indonesian race. Recently, a very important burial field of those people was excavated at the Ninh Binh (Northern Vietnam) site of Man Bac. A 14C-dating for this site is 3,530 YBP.

But the first human occupation here could have been as early as 4,000 YBP. It was the age of many late Neolithic, early metal age cultures such as Phung Nguyen, Hoa Loc, Ha Long and Go Ma Vuong. These people were living in real villages. Some of them had already developed an agricultural society as in the case of Phung Nguyen culture. A great deal of rice and rice artifacts were found in the late phase of this culture. They cultivated Oriza Sativa, a large developed type of this grain.

Growing rice established new cultural developments with lots of settlements with rich potsherd layers, many domestic animal bones and rice remains. The non-food productions of pottery, stone tools, and especially jade ornament artifacts showed that a surplus economy in food production had developed. For the Pre-Ðôngsonian culture (2,800-3,500 YBP), many big burial fields in the Delta of Ma River have been excavated.

Pre-Ðôngsonian skulls have strong elements of Australoid, but elements of Mongoloid are clearly increasing – Austronesians. The Quy Chu and Nui Nap people are identified with the Southeast Asian or Indonesian race. Ðôngsonian – or Ðông Son – Culture in Vietnam was regarded as the most developed culture in late prehistory of Vietnam. It began 2,700-2,800 YBP, and ended with the complete occupation by the Han Dynasty in 2,200 YBP.

The Ðông Son culture belonged to the Iron Age and is found mainly in North Vietnam, southward only to Da Nang (18N latitude) and northward to southern Kwangzi and Kwangtung of China. The Ðông Son are Tai. Anthropological research confirms increasing Mongoloid elements in the Ðông Son skulls. However, the Ðông Son peoples belonged to the Indonesian or Ancient Southeast Asian group – a Southern Mongoloid with strong Australoid elements (Cuong, 1996).

In summary, in response to the poster’s comment, I do not agree with him that Vietnamese were full Neomongoloids 3,800 YBP. This is just not correct.

3,800 YBP Vietnamese were part of the Dabut Culture. Dabut people were Mongoloid-Australoid transitionals or Paleomongoloids. Skulls from Man Bac 3,500 YBP show that the Man Bac people were ancient Austronesians possibly from the Peinan Culture in Southeastern Taiwan. These people are classed as the Ancient Southeast Asian Race which is today the Indonesian Race. So 3,500 YBP, Vietnamese looked like Indonesians. This race is a Southeast Mongoloid Race with strong Australoid elements.

From 2,800-3,500 YBP, the Pre-Ðôngsonian Culture existed in Vietnam. These would also be classified as the Indonesian Race, but Mongoloid elements are now increasing over the Australoid. These people were also classed as Austronesians, possibly once again from Taiwan. These would be Taiwanese aborigines.

By 2,200 YBP, there was a huge invasion of Vietnam by the Southern Chinese Han who conquered the entire nation. At this point the transition to modern Vietnamese began. Modern Vietnamese are best seen as a Southeast Mongoloid Race with some Australoid elements. They are probably best seen as Neomongoloids as opposed to Paleomongoloids.


Cuong, N.L. 1996. Anthropological Research on Ðôngsonian Skeletons (in Vietnamese). Hanoi.


Filed under Agricutlure, Anthropology, Asia, Asian, Asians, China, Chinese (Ethnic), Cultural, History, Indonesians, Melanesians, Oceanians, Physical, Race/Ethnicity, Regional, SE Asia, SE Asian, SE Asians, Taiwan, Taiwanese Aborigines, Vietnam, Vietnamese

12 responses to “Race in Vietnamese Antiquity

  1. It is certainly interesting that you see massive amounts of this ancestry in Malaysia, and Indonesia, barely south of ‘Nam, and in East India of course, but I honestly can’t recall that I’ve seen many australoidic looking Vietnamese.

    • Are those people Viets?

      Thing is, unless they are Blasian or Amerasian Viets, the “Negroid” and “Caucasoid” phenotypes seen in both of these Viets could indeed be due to Australoid elements. And when you mix an Australoid with a Mongoloid, you can end up with a “Caucasoid” phenotype. They’re not real Caucasoids of course. They are pseudo-Caucasoids. The Viet man above would be a pseudo-Negroid.

      The Australoid race is sort of the great masker. I think it must have a lot of variation in it because Australoids can seem to mimic quite a few other phenotypes.

      • No the woman is Malaysian the man is Indonesian.
        I was saying this wasn’t typical of Viets for whatever reason.

        Australoids broke off from Blacks early on, so they are an old race; it would make sense that they have more biodiversity.

        P.S. Cavilli- Sforza says that Europeans are a newer group than NE Asians (although Mongoloids are newer than Europeans), and IQ typically increases with the ‘newness’ of a race. NE Asians are of higher IQ than Whites.
        Could this mean that macro-race determines IQ more than Ethnicity?

        I always thought it was the WNs hijaking HBD that made it so these minute ethnic differences had some massive significance. It’s just not borne out by what the DNA testing companies can do (they have a rough time distinguishing a whole lot other than macro-racial level, accurately, at least the scientific ones do).

      • remove makeup ….if that girl is caucasoid, then i’am unicorn.
        FYI, All muslim mongoloid nations like malayasia,indonesia etc already having arab/caucasoid mixture(came with islamization). Same can be said for north-african muslim negros that show fake-caucsoid features.

  2. Vietman

    Robertlindsay… I think you need to read that Man Bac archaeological site study (~3800 years ago). It’s the quite up-to-date. Those old studies you have read are not up to date, it’s been a long time. The anthropologists classified most of the Man Bac skulls as East Asian (Yayoi type skull) but they appeared earlier in VN than Japan. The face is very flat from side view, flat gabella, round eye sockets, sinodont teeth, higher face…

    BTW, the Japanese man who participated in this study died in a road traffic accident when he was working in VN a few years ago.

  3. Actually Pretty Funny

    You don’t know this, Bob, but the problem is that the North Vietnamese are Asian supremacists, which means that they don’t accept that our ancestors had moved South in Antiquity. They, like the Chinese, want the country to have “thousands of years of history”, but at the same time, they don’t want anything to do with our “Southern Chinese roots.” In other words, they think they are “pure blood” Austronesians. They also prevent people from diggin deeper underneath history, and sytematically suppress/ delete any discussions involving skull evidences. For example, they will ask for “sources”, reliable “sources” by the Government regarding you post.
    As far as the 80s, they still erased evidence from temples/ pagodas involving “the Chinese root.” So there are Souther Chinese gods who were revered 50 years ago, now have became “enemy/ Chinese gods.”
    They are like the Japanese, and Koreans, and Chinese in this regard. The Japanese always deny any connections with the Koreans, although the very Japanese Imperial family is of Korean origins from a long time ago. They can single out people of Korean descent in Japan by “the way they act”, and treat them like “gaijins”(outsiders); those gaijins have been living in Japan since WW2 at the least.
    The Koreans are the same. North Koreans can single out South Koreans easily, and vice versa, even though the accent is right.
    That’s why it’s extremely hard for anything alien to penetrate such insular societies. Which in turn explains alot about America’s failure in the Vietnam War.
    Needless to say, North Vietnamese people can single out “South Vietnamese” by “the way they act.” South Vietnamese “talk a lot,” so they say. And price for outsiders is different, as an example. Even Northern Vietnamese with some “Southern influence” in their accent got to pay the higher price for the same goods.
    But unlike South Koreans and Japanese, since everything is falling apart under Communism and everyone quite poor, the “Supremacism” is disminishing recently. Northern people are somewhat humbler by now.
    And people are quite weird too: If you somehow sucessfully force them to accept that their ancestore were Chinese, they would act accordingly. I mean they would agree that exploiting people to the bones, like the Chinese are doing, is fine because “we are Chinese afterall.”

    • Vietman

      The homeland of the Chinese (Han) was somewhere above the Yangtze river… It was very small compared to the China you know today (A mistake some people make is they think China was already this big thousands of years ago)… So the Chinese (Han) were surrounded by many other countries and they viewed them as foreigners… In the south (below the Yangtze river), there existed many Yue countries (before the Han began to invade and took over about 2300 years ago)…. Viet Nam / An Nam / Giao Chi was one of them. The peoples of these states were called Bai Yue and they were already very Mongoloid-looking (flat-faced) or East-Asian looking. And, they were never considered Chinese by the Chinese (Han people) themselves.

      You shouldn’t apply modern thinking to the past.

  4. Actually Pretty Funny

    Btw, the first time I knew about the skull shape is from your blog, two years ago.

    Needless to say, after the war, they treated Eurasian of GIs like pariahs of society, a shame that the people of South Vietnam had to bear because they ain’t “pure” anymore. There is even a term for such children, the “Dust of Life”.
    But after immigration act for Eurasian children, those “Dust of Life” suddenly became highly prized by people who wanted to migrate to America. They were their tickets. Their price increased accordingly. It’s also a way for the Communists to “purify” Society.
    Previously, those kids had been seen as “normal”, no problem, like in the Philippines. Of course kids like that proned more to crime than usual.

    North Vietnamese have that weird tendency to “shut off” from things uncomfortable to them. They mostly avoid talkking about such “shames.”

  5. Mongoloids are a separate macro-racial group. They just assimilated caucasoid & Australoid genes, which sometimes creates caucasoid illusion.If you want to see pure mongolids, head over to North-Korea & Guangdong China.

    The same way, Northafrican berbers show caucasoid features due to ancient arab/semitic+medeterrian mixture. We all know that those regions were ruled by non-negroids from very ancient times.

  6. TRASH

    Manchuria, not Gunagdong China.

  7. jw

    Hi Mr lindsay where did the south chinese come from. are indo chinese same as south chinese

  8. Malays are thought to have originated in Taiwan and spread Southward and then Westward back up into Southeast Asia.

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