Is HBD an Ideology of Hatred and Racism?

Hatred? Well, effectively it is, that is the thing.

Is it an ideology of racism? Almost always it is. Nonracist or even antiracist HBD’ers are hard to find. We have a few on this site, but there are not many anywhere else. This is because HBD facts tend to lend pretty regularly to quite a bit of racism and the hatred that goes along with it. And if you notice, the more hardcore the HBD’er is, the more racist they tend to sound. HBD does not inevitably lead to racism, but it tends to do so in a pretty regular way. Those HBD’ers who resist racism are sort of swimming against the tide, and they probably have to exercise quite a bit of energy and self-control to not go over to the dark side.

HBD in and of itself is not racist of course, not in any sane sense of the word.

Almost all HBD is a hate ideology in one way or another. Let’s face facts here for a minute. I have been studying this group of people for a very long time on here. The nonracist or even more uncommon antiracist HBD’ers on the Net can be counted easily, as their numbers are very low. And in a way, I hate to say it, but all HBD, at least the hard kind, is sort of racist ideology. I do not mean the people who merely believe in it but don’t really like to talk about, as it’s ugly. These are the “What the Hell you want to talk about that for?” types. Mere belief in HBD does not make you bad. Some of those are decent people.

But the ones who are very deep into it and talk about it all the time, well, it’s quite clear that they have a pretty low opinion of NAM’s. Even worse, a lot of them are just out and out racists. Some are even vicious racists. And almost all of them have the worst rightwing politics, usually Libertarian, that you could imagine.

More importantly, HBD is a profoundly pessimistic doctrine. Just to give you an idea, they hate the idea that the environment or even free will has any role to play human affairs. Look at how furious they get about the Flynn Effect. Look at all the bending over, twisting themselves into weird yoga positions, hand waving, magic wand waving, “Don’t look over there”, and  “just-so” explanations they have come up for to deny what is an obvious rise in human intelligence. The idea that the environment could actually increase intelligence fills them with rage because they are all wrapped up in this “intelligence is purely genetic” argument.

Of course, that argument is a death knell for Blacks and other NAM’s. These people have enough problems as it is, but HBD just drives a stake through their heart to make sure the Black man (or other NAM’s) never rises again. It pretty much condemns them forever as genetic inferiors in sense.

It says “niggers ain’t got no brains,” and while that may be true in a very ugly and racist sense that most us don’t want to think about, instead, the HBD’er is overjoyed at this fact. “Black people are stupid!” he hollers to the sky with joy. “And they will stay that way forever!” he yells gleefully. “Environment can’t help them. They are condemned!” At this point, he is nearly gleeful and ready to party.

These profoundly depressing facts actually fill the HBD’ers black heart with the greatest of joy. Now what sort of human rejoices at bad news? An asshole, a lousy person. And what human rejoices at the inferiority of another man or God forbid race? A lousy person, who is also a very nasty racist to boot. And that’s what hard HBD’ers are. They’re lousy people.

And most of them are racist lousy people, but they are quite smug about their racism because now their racism is given the imprimatur of science. “If science says it’s true, I can’t be racist,” he chortles.

After all, science isn’t racist. I agree, but distortion of science for racist means sure is, and delighting in the disturbing “racist truths” of science is doubly so.

Sure, gay men are at very high risk of HIV, and up to 20% are infected. That’s a fact of science. So does that make you want to get up and party for 30 days and 30 nights? I hope not, and if so, you are one ugly homophobe.

So yes, there are ugly truths, even ugly truths stamped so by science, but these are of course more tragedies to be mourned than reasons to whoop with joy.

Decent people don’t rejoice over tragic facts, racist or otherwise.

194 Comments

Filed under Assholes, Conservatism, Flynn Effect, Intelligence, Libertarianism, Political Science, Psychology, Race Realism, Race/Ethnicity, Racism, Science

194 responses to “Is HBD an Ideology of Hatred and Racism?

  1. -Brilliant analogy with HIV.
    -I agree with the main idea of this post.
    -Thank you!

  2. I’m not sure that there is a correlation between how much more genetic IQ is (as opposed to environmental) and how much you hate NAMs.

    PP has said that because of regression to racial means (when all in all their is exposure to an “average” environment), that IQs from even the smartest NAMs rapidly drop off;
    I.E. it’ll drop more if the parent-offspring IQ correlation is 0.3, than 0.7.

    Blacks with an IQ of 110 will produce a lower IQ offspring than Whites with an IQ of 90, given that the IQ correlation is 0.3
    (assuming a Black mean of 85, the kid would likely have an IQ of 93, while the White child would have an IQ of 97).

    It’s actually possible that people who deny environment has a role are less ‘anti-NAM’, that being said, yes, denying that environment has a meaningful, and not just stable/pure regression effect is more of ‘anti-NAM’ viewpoint.

  3. I’m going to predict the future an say Jason is going to have a ball with this comment section, spamming it with strawmen, pointless jokes, and emotional assertion without the faintest sense of science trying to take down the actual legitimacy HBD for three reasons.

    A. He won’t distinguish between the science itself and the people who use it the most.
    B. He will Ignore the fact that even Robert acknowledges HBD’s truths, just not a hereditarian level.
    C. Hardly once could I cite him actually arguing specific points on science as I or William has, going no further beyond seldomly making a general statement accompanied by a link to a general science article. I don’t cpunt it because it really doesn’t prove his actual comprehension.

    Back to the topic at hand, I rarely actually seen this type of behavior of HBD from books I’ve read from the past compared to now. This is because, compared to the early days of saw Darwin or Galton, more “average” people discuss science more with then translates to more racists arguing with general HBD concepts compared to more professional types. This of course refers to my point of my “Black and White” article.

    • *say, not saw.

      And by pass, I quite literally mean the 19th century.

    • At first it seemed like more and more evidence accumulating that Norms of Reaction being how genes work was a breath of fresh air, but perhaps lending credence to the ‘hate’ idea, many instantly said ‘that means Blacks do better in their own environment; Africa’ (which of course is nonsense because by their own definition, Blacks didn’t need brains in Africa); that sort of thing is basically silly lies fueled by hatred and I (formerly William😉 ) don’t like it.

      It would also be tempting to say that based on Norms of reaction IQ isn’t real, because are genes turn off/on, do better/worse in different environments, however, when it encountered with a relatively stable environment, general ability can be examined in that environment (or roughly so).

      • “At first it seemed like more and more evidence accumulating that Norms of Reaction being how genes work was a breath of fresh air, but perhaps lending credence to the ‘hate’ idea, many instantly said ‘that means Blacks do better in their own environment; Africa’ (which of course is nonsense because by their own definition, Blacks didn’t need brains in Africa); that sort of thing is basically silly lies fueled by hatred and I (formerly William😉 ) don’t like it.”

        Well, not necessarily brains, but some form of adaptability. so the idea has some merit but there is a problem, that wouldn’t apply to modern Africa in terms of Western influences in infrastructure but “past” Africa precolonial era.

        “It would also be tempting to say that based on Norms of reaction IQ isn’t real, because are genes turn off/on, do better/worse in different environments, however, when it encountered with a relatively stable environment, general ability can be examined in that environment (or roughly so).”

        Could you explain more?

        • “Could you explain more”.

          One example given, and this is popular with the HBD-rejecting WNs that Tulio was talking about below, that French Ashkenazi Jews are underrepresented among their wealthiest, whereas in the U.S. they are 18x overrepresented, saying, ‘IQ is meaningful here, but not in France, because the environments are different’ (I haven’t fact checked this, but it’s a hypothetical example, if it’s true).
          Therefore, IQ is not ‘universal’ ability, assuming all that’s true.

          Another example, is that Israel is a country that has a GDP/population ratio about as high as Spain (the “armpit of Western Europe ;)”), yet based on American Ashkenazi IQ you’d expect it to be better (this is rebutted by the presence of non-Ashkenazis representing about half of the non-Palestinian Israeli population, and IQs are depressed because the more tribalist of the Jews go there).

        • Well then I can believe it, but considering this is based off the success of a population in an environment than actually bio-analysis or metrics I wouldn’t conclude that it means genes “turn on & off”, at least with your France Example.

          It could be that it’s not necessarily IQ that doesn;t help as much, but perhaps verbal IQ.

  4. Jason Y

    As I said in comments before, a majority of HBDers, but not all, are trying to get back for childhood truama etc.. Considering the source, we can obviously see the HBD opinions are biased.

  5. Brian Damage

    For the sake of accuracy, I feel NEAM should be used instead of NAM

    • do you mean what Jason said about an NNAM (non-Northeast Asian Minority?).

      SE Asians in their native countries have lower IQs, but there countries are startlingly impoverished/ have a low GDP/populace ration, bad Gini, etc.

      When raised in the first world they are basically as smart as Europeans.

      • Jason Y

        It does seem like Filipinos etc.. value education. However, according to the racist HBD theory, all tropical oriented people have evolved a lower IQ, due to the fact there are few obstacles to living in the tropics, hence the women are not picky for mates.

        But we now it’s baloney….. There are a large amount of environmental factors going into IQ.

        Also, as another thought, perhaps people are more lazy in the tropics simply cause of the climate. Has anyone been there? You can’t really do anything for most of the day.

        • “It does seem like Filipinos etc.. value education. However, according to the racist HBD theory, all tropical oriented people have evolved a lower IQ, due to the fact there are few obstacles to living in the tropics, hence the women are not picky for mates.”

          Called it, strawman. I’ll actually correct this further down.

          “But we now it’s baloney….. There are a large amount of environmental factors going into IQ.”

          Define “large”. Of course depravity but some others aren’t proven by HBD’s standard’s. Prenatal exposures though would be another one.

          “Also, as another thought, perhaps people are more lazy in the tropics simply cause of the climate. Has anyone been there? You can’t really do anything for most of the day.”

          Try that due to a lot of vegetation and animal life, resources were abundant, thus not much of selection towards productivity. this could change of course due to geographical variance within an climate or outside influence on selection.

        • TRASH

          JASON The Philippines has one of the worst climates. It is as humid as Florida and as hot as death valley.

      • Brian Damage

        Yes NNAMs. SEAs are not as smart as Europeans when raised in the first world. You may see the visible top 20% being successful mirroring the successful 20% in their native countries.

        • yeah….
          It’s really tough to tell with immigrant populations, for there is selectivity or reverse selectivity.
          I’ll take your word for it.

        • TRASH

          Ethnic Chinese business dominance reflects this. Chinese have long had an intellectual advantage and have been the worst type of opportunists in Southeast Asia.

        • Matt

          The HBD assumption about tropical life rests on a belief that tropical people can essentially wait for fruit to drop in their mouths. There is at least one thing wrong with this, including the ingenuity required to hybridize and breed fruit and other wild food stuffs so that they become pleasing to humans. Look at bananas, for example. They are one of the most extensively hybridized and unnaturally selected items known. In any case, I suspect the HBD argument in this instance is based more on ignorance than anything else.

        • Matt

          …not to mention the fact that plants and other potentially edible items are not simply waiting for humans to pop them in their mouths. Edible plants are vastly outnumbered by plants that are poisonous to one degree or another. So there is a certain amount of trial and error and educated guessing involved in finding sustenance. There are things to know, and learn, and maintain in one’s mind in these environments as elsewhere.

        • To Matt,

          “The HBD assumption about tropical life rests on a belief that tropical people can essentially wait for fruit to drop in their mouths. There is at least one thing wrong with this, including the ingenuity required to hybridize and breed fruit and other wild food stuffs so that they become pleasing to humans. Look at bananas, for example. They are one of the most extensively hybridized and unnaturally selected items known. In any case, I suspect the HBD argument in this instance is based more on ignorance than anything else.”

          See my response to Jason on this. BTW, Bananas, earliest, were domesticated in the Highlands of PNG, proving my point of geographical variance.

        • Matt,

          also your overall points doesn’t defeat the matter that, compared to other areas, basic resources were more numerous.

        • Jm8

          Many regions near the equator: much of Subsaharan Africa (the large savannah and sahel zones and savannah/forest border) the Near East, and parts South Asia also have significant dry seasons—about half the year—, when little grows and as in temperate zones relating to cold seasons, hunting must increase, and/or foods/crops must be stored (in the case of farming/non hunter-gatherer cultures). But this might not apply so much to S.E Asia, which tends (to my knowledge) to have wetter kinds of tropical climates, though it would apply to parts of the Indian subcontinent.

        • Jm8

          My last reply was to Matt:

        • Chinedu

          The HBD cold weather theory is one of their most outrageously stupid talking points. Africa had, by far, the harshest environment, requiring the most intelligence, planning and ingenuity to survive. This is probably why modern humans evolved their in the first place.

        • Jm8

          Both semi arid zones (e.g. savannah, Sahel, savannah/forrest border)—as exist in much of subsaharan, parts of S. Asia, etc.—and temperate, necessitate broadly similar types of regular preparation for survival, and/or the use of various different and innovative survival methods.

          Homo Sapiens is likely to have originated from (or been affected at an early period, possibly crucial to its formation: various times between 200-70,000 bc) by semi-arid and at times extremely dry climates (when Africa was even—much— drier than it is today; ice ages in near-polar/temperate areas tended to correspond to droughts nearer the equator).
          The traits that allowed sapiens to survive in these difficult climates (and that were developed there) likely were a contributor to the species’ success in colder (and other) ones later on.

          http://www.independent.co.uk/news/science/drought-followed-by-brain-how-climate-change-spurred-evolution-of-human-intelligence-8884863.html

          https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2007/10/071008171121.htm

        • Jm8

          Edit: “…likely were a contributor to the species’ success (incl. sometimes over other hominids) in a wide range of zones later on.”

        • To Chinedu,

          “The HBD cold weather theory is one of their most outrageously stupid talking points. Africa had, by far, the harshest environment, requiring the most intelligence, planning and ingenuity to survive. This is probably why modern humans evolved their in the first place.”

          Well number one it was EAST Africa specifically where it developed, which as second you loosely use harsh in terms to how the theory works. Not by how “harsh” the environment is but how it lends itself for the importance for problem solving skills such as in hunting.

          So in a savannah, due to open exposure by other animals to notice you, that would require strategy as well as change in seasons. However in colder and colder weather though there would be less organic resources, more reliance on meat, and group cooperation as well.

          Granted, that’s not the only factor in IQ differences but a global north to south cline in both IQ scores and historical development is worth noting.

        • Jm8

          Modern Humans (likely) developed somewhere in East Africa, but broadly similiar climates exist over large-substantial areas of other parts of SS Africa, including the West.

  6. PP has talked about the ‘hierarchy of manipulation”;

    Jews manipulate Europeans and “dark Caucasoids”, whereas Europeans abused “Hispanics” and both abused Blacks.

    To most HBDers, the Jews manipulating Europeans is terrible, and some think Jews manipulating Dark Caucasoids is bad (only because we have to deal with it), but many will justify abuse from there….

    • Tulio

      It’s interesting how white nationalist HBDers get upset when you bring up the fact that Jews have the highest IQs. Then the WNs instantly become the biggest IQ denialists on the planet and swear it’s rigged. I read that Hitler banned IQ tests because Jews performed the best.

      • Brian Damage

        WNs failed to grasp the fact that most of their members are from the left side of the Bell Curve. They essentially matched the average IQ of their hated African Americans. Their main competition are the NAMs and with affirmative action favoring NAMs, they felt left out.

        • Jason Y

          Yeah you gotta point. Somebody working fast food, Wal Mart or at IHOP is in competition with NAMS. For some reason or another, and I’m not trying to sound like a classist dickhead, they didn’t get jobs in the blue collar trades, or some job requiring advanced education.

        • Well, I think that it’s a very solid component of HBD that tribalism and low impulse control come with lower IQ.

          The extensive Kanazawa study backs this up, as do the Amygdala imaging studies, it’s just as well documented as racial IQ gaps, yet many of these guys pretend like it’s still a debate or plug their ears and scream “NO” in the face of the evidence, not unlike the HBD deniers they hate.

          They’re just morons.
          Seriously.

          I saw something on PP’s where they said ‘racists can’t be dumb because everyone used to be racist, so was everybody dum’.

          IQs have risen since the past
          The formula to find the average IQ of a racialist is -0.29* x z-score (Which is rarity of your views), and if more people are racist, the Z-score is lower (DUH!). Yet they prove the point by not understanding this!

          Found by the fact that Israeli Ashkenazi Jews average 4 points lower than other Ashkenazi Jews around the globe, and are 1/3 of the population, assuming reverse selectivity of Israeli Ashkenazis because of tribalism.

        • Gay State Girl

          Chiune Sugihara

          The 4 point gap is due to the fact that the West functions as a brain drain for Israelis who want to flee the turmoil. The IQs of Arab Americans are also a lot higher than those in the Middle East.

  7. Speaking of what “brain damage” was talking about, the average IQ of a racialist, an American “WN”, can be found quite easily;

    given the -0.29 correlation between tribalistic views and IQ, and knowing how rare WNs are;
    we see, that Trump won 45% of 23% of the population (the GOP) and it was estimated that half of those supporters were White Nationalists (not that many in the big scheme of things), so then we could see that that’s 5.175% of the U.S. population, and about 8.2% of the White one.

    So the average among them is in the 4.1st percentile for racial progressiveness, meaning they have a z-score of about +1.67 for tribalness.
    1.67(-0.29)= -0.4843,
    that times -0.4843(15)= 7.5 points dumber than your average White, which is an IQ of 95.5 on American norms (Hispanics and Blacks would average in the upper 80s on these norms)…..

    The standard deviation would be (13.5)(1-(0.29)^2), which is 12.3

    So WNs have an average IQ of 95.5 with an SD of 12.3.
    Not morons, but not the sharpest tools in the shed, either.

    • and actually the most recent “American Norms” study I can think of was Charles Murray in 1994, where Non-Hispanic Gentile Whites were 71% of the population, not 63%.
      So they’d be 7.3% of the White populace, and average 3.65th percentile in progressivism, 29x-0.29, is -8.41 points.

      103-8.41= 94.59, and the SD should be the same (based on the fact that IQs of the subgroups on the extremes for some groups will terminate earlier than that of the whole, 12.3).

      So 95 with an SD of 12?
      Blacks are 85 with an SD of 13
      Hispanics are 89 with an SD of 13.
      Sound right?

    • Brian Damage

      Given that there are no IQ score specific job restrictions and with knowledge based economy as the main driver, I think most WNs are in the same predicament as the NAMs. Trump’s popularity was not that surprising. It will most likely be worse for the WNs and NAMs in the future. I see them having similar barriers and shortcomings.

      • “with knowledge based economy as the main driver”

        We basically only have high tech industries, things that can’t be outsourced to foreign countries cheaply, as our sole driver.

        I think that some prole pain can be eased eventually if we stop monetarism (Which causes a low risk environment where the large companies don’t risk/invest in the proles), but yes, the trend has started and it’s going to be rough.

        • Brian Damage

          It was easier post WW2 since most major economies had to reset leaving the few unaffected countries such as the US, Canada, and Australia capitalizing on it. Post cold war, Europe & East Asia caught up. After China came on board, the whole game changed drastically. Today we are talking about efficiency and technology. Long gone are the days of simply showing up to work, have a house with a garage and annual vacations. It takes much more than that.

  8. The WNs are dumb all right, but not as dumb as people are tempted to think.

  9. Actually he didn’t argue that HBD itself was wrong for heretical reasons, he was talking about the behavior of many who uses race science.

    Also, where were Europeans even mentioned? Looks like you were reading something else buddy.

  10. How did this pass your view btw?

    “HBD in and of itself is not racist of course, not in any sane sense of the word.”

  11. ^^^exhibit A of ‘run of the mill’ HBDer brilliance^^^

  12. From someone who’s observed the WN movement for a decade and a half, I think this post has the cart before the horse so to speak.

    HBD existed before the term “HBD” came about. Exemplified by sites such as Gene Expression and Dienekes Pontikos’s blog. These weren’t ‘racialist’ blogs, but took a more honest look at anthropology and genetics than mainstream society.

    Important to note that they didn’t make a point of highlighting racial differences, they just didn’t Politically Correctorise their writings.

    I think the “racialists” jumped on board, and are using HBD as a cover for “Racialism”. White Nationalists use “racialism” to justify their opposition to diversity. A retarted position because I think White people should be free to preserve ourselves as a distinct identifiable group, REGARDLESS of what the science actually says about racial differences.

    However, the HBDers seem to think that we have to ‘prove’ that race is real, before we can take the idea of White nations becoming racial melting pots to task. Bring in those who just want to poke at the duskier ones, and you have the current situation.

  13. We’re beginning to see that HBD or any ‘superior race’ talk must not be engaged in.
    Literally, no matter what the evidence is, ‘Hitler types’ will instantly argue that it’s their race is superior. It’s kind of humorous.

    NE Asians and Ashkenazis have the highest IQs in the world yet Europeans are the superior race.
    In other news; 2+2=5.

    I’m serious. It’s that bad.

    • Well technically that’s correct if we look at actual aptitude. This probably due to personality differences and balances between Verbal and Mathematical IQ of Whites.

      Still, there’s this.

      http://www.unz.com/gnxp/our-magnificent-bastard-race/#comment-1538013

    • I don’t think a race can be judged as superior based on IQ alone.

      NE Asians may have a high IQ, but it seems they are more prone to wanting to go to White nations than the other way around.

      High IQ correlates, but doesn’t always equate to a higher standard of living. You have to factor culture, creativity, psychology, empathy, compassion, many other traits.

      Do you want to live in a brutal neo-liberal, ultra-efficient planet destroying civilisation where humans are relegated to the role of very well cared for domestic animals producing for the sake of producing and nothing more??

      Hitler had a higher than average IQ. Look what he did with it…

  14. HBD has three components;
    1. Intellect by race/ethnicity
    2. Athletic ability/testosterone/ lung capacity by race/ethnicity.
    3. Where ideology comes from in the brain (Amygdala studies)

    many of these so-called ‘race realists’ accept the literature as God-given fact for part one, yet scream and cry and rant and rave about parts 2 and 3.

  15. phil-
    Asian verbal IQs aren’t really that much lower than Whites, and the same with Ashkenazi Spatial IQs.

    Ashkenazis are still overrepresented in the physical sciences.
    I really think this ‘goldilocks theory’ of races is just insane drivel…..accepting a really crummy explanation because it suits one’s goals, while not digging deeper.

    It’s not that it’s Wrong per se, it’s that it’s not a good explanation, yet it fits the needs of racialists so they just parrot it and don’t dig deeper, like they would if they were actually looking for the truth

    • What are the actual numbers though in the split between Math and Verbal IQ of Asians? Even if the verbal isn’t lower, there’s still possibility of a the trade off of the balance itself.

      You mention physical sciences yet they are noted to be underrepresented in Mathematics and engineering (I heard that GSG’s father was one, but that’s just an anecdote).

      Of how good it is as an explanation, well here’s how I believe they work.

      How high each one is in raw score tells us how well developed they are, but what balance tells us is the intellectual “disposition” of each. in other words, the higher a subtest is, the more likely it will be one’s immediate form of thinking.

      “IF one was to say;
      “Chinks are boring and non-creative”, and don’t have good personalities, but Whites do, surely one most realize Blacks have even more outgoing personalities, and are the most creative.”

      Well, in my observation, I would add context in regards to them being more expressive due to extroversion. The thing is though that without and more balanced Mathematical IQ, stuff like organization and planning becomes more difficult thus that’s why you don;t find alot of original forms of performace from Black Africans that’s isn;t influenced by outside sources.

      I’ve read that Black Fulani music of the muslim Pulohs was better than both Black pagans and Arabs, as well as Muslim Mandingoes and Christain Igboes doing well with English choir music. It’s just that without a higher level of verbal IQ or a better balance with a higher level, “creation” can be limited compared to utilization.

      “They’ll deny the latter but go with the former.
      These people aren’t really looking for the truth, at all. It’s all just a massive schtick.”

      I’ll say they’re very mechanically efficient, and can create sophisticated and complex art, the most creative “Asians” I know of would be Japanese but they are very Western Influenced and technically have a Australoid element via the Jomon people.

      • phil- I don’t know any actual stats, but judging based on the fact that the most pre-eminent Physical scientists of this century (Nuclear things, relativity and more), are perhaps Albert Einstein (Ashkenazi) and Niels Bohr (Scandinavian Father, Ashkenazi mother), DESPITE smaller population, I’d suspect on average Jews do better than Gentile Europeans.

        • And of course, Oppenheimer relished that he beat the Nazis.

          For he, too, was a Jew.

          Hitler’s Y-DNA was semitic…..
          maybe instead of retarded nonsense like ‘the gas chambers were for delousing’ are lovely WN friends should play the ‘Jew on Jew crime’ card.
          If they were truly clever…..

        • You have a point in regards of distinguished individuals, but i wouldn;t say that means “better” as it could be that Jews could have an advantage in terms of “caliber” in terms of overall IQ in their variation.

          There’s still the the factor of multitudes in the whites fraction of exmplifiers that possess a more balanced and versatile variety of skills.

      • Jm8

        “that’s why you don;t find alot of original forms of performace from Black Africans that’s isn;t influenced by outside sources.”

        This is not really the case. There are many quite/fairly complex styles (sometimes styles associated with traditional courts/higher culture of kings/chiefs, but also sometimes styles of the common folk, and also of less advanced groups) in Black Africa with little to no outside influence (a few of which I linked and mentioned a while back):
        e.g. the West Sahel/Savannah and W. Lake Chad regions, much of Nigeria and Ghana, parts of the greater Congo region, the East Central African Lakes, and some others)

        The Music of the Mandingo, Bamana and other Sahelians comes from a tradition that long predates Islam.

        Though, some Sahelian tribes were Islamised later and recieved some Muslim influences (classical Mandinka music is unique, quite developed/coplex—as you have said—and very different in style from Mid. Eastern, having continued to develop in its own direction after Islam—as did the music of the nearby groups), their fundamental traits (melodic styles/tunes, many stringed instruments/instrument types, and other melodic instruments—though not all) were indigenous—often influencing the music of Berber tribes immediately to the North (some of these topics are discussed by Africanist ethno-musicologists like Lucy Duran, Kofi Agawu, and Gerhard Kubik)

        • Interesting to know, thanks!

        • Jm8

          Eric Charry on the bolon (the primitive ancestor of a widespread family of W. African harp lutes, including the complex Mandinka Kora)—which evolved, as all stringed instruments ultimately do, from the paleolithic/mesolithic musical bow:

          …the bolon…has the fewest strings(three or four) among the West African harps; its neck is the most curved, resembling a hunter’s or warrior’s bow more closely than do any of the other harps; and it is played on a calabash drum, rather than tacked onto it as on most other calabash harps….If one can posit an evolution of west African harps according to the number of strings, curve of the bow, and the method of attaching the skin sound table, the bolon would be the candidate for the oldest of the calabash harps. It conveys such a striking image of a calabash drum wedded to a warrior’s of hunter’s bow that there is no need to search outside West Africa for prototypes. p.27

          “Mande Music: Traditional and Modern Music of the Maninka and Mandinka of Western Africa”
          By Eric S. Charry
          https://books.google.com/books?id=8F5r27VBBm0C&pg=PA82&dq=origin+of+simbi+and+ngoni&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwiFxJnF0tTLAhUD2B4KHTVFBu0Q6AEIKDAC#v=onepage&q=origin%20of%20simbi%20and%20ngoni&f=false

          The native peoples of Central Africa use a wide range of bowed harps, simple/archaic bow-like harps, and musical bows with transitional/proto-harp like traits such as gourd resonators(e.g.: the Rwandan Idono, W. C. African Uhadi, and others from Central and Southern Africa. The second group includes “stick zithers” like the four-stringed “Mvet” with three gourd resonators along its length, played by the bards of the Fang tribe. The mult-necked pluriarc harps of C. Africa look to have derived from the joining of many one-stringed bows.

          Lucy Duran on the Seperewa:
          “The widespread influence of these calabash harps can be seen as far south as Akan country in southern Ghana, where one of the symbols of Asante royalty is an instrument called the saprewa, with ten strings in two parallel rows on either side of a wide bride. The calabash resonator, however, has been substituted by a wooden box.”
          http://eprints.soas.ac.uk/15829/1/Toumani_Diabate_The_Kora_Tales_of_a_Frontier_Instrument.pdf

        • Thanks for this insight. What about, say, organized styles of music for example?

          I provided examples that exists in terms of regions, but what about one in particular?

        • Jm8

          Meant to include:
          “…and recieved some Muslim influences/contributions…”

          “…and other very ancient melodic instruments/instrument types like winds, the thumb piano and xylophone—the last now believed by many scholars to be native to Africa but also invented sepparately in Asia.—…)

        • Jm8

          “Thanks for this insight. What about, say, organized styles of music for example?”

          Some of these are discussed by the authors I mentioned. I’ll try to get back to you with more detail when I have more time—I am in a hurry at the moment. For now I might mention:

          The bardic and court styles of the Mandinka (which you mentioned)—the music played on the Kora and Balafon are discussed by the Authors and can be found—, as well as of the Bambara, and Wolof; the court styles of the E. central African Lakes kingdoms—Agawu talks about this, West African styles, and others) like Buganda, Burundi, Bunyoro, BuHaya; and of the Northern Semi-Bantu e.g. Tikar (some of that in Kubik, though he, like Agawu has discuses a wider range of Afrcan styles and in some detail).
          The xylophone music of the Mozabiquan Chopi tribe is notable also.

          The choral Music of some southern Bantu (e.g. Zulu, Xosa) is another one that can be somewhat sophisticated

          I talked a bit about some styles in comments here (a group of which you saw, but also in another grou of comments below it with more links/videos posted where I discuss the roots of blues)

          https://robertlindsay.wordpress.com/2016/02/13/the-ronettes-be-my-baby/

          Several W. and Central African groups used drum languages that sometimes reached a high level of complexity (I had a post about it somewhere here, but I forget where); in some cases (esp with the Ashanti) functioning almost as the aural euivalent of an alphabet, with each phoneme of the language (often tones, but sometimes vowels consonants)
          encoded for by a specific sound. Analongs of consonants were not often produced on the drums membrane, as were tones or—when present— vowels, but on a piece attatched to the drum or its edge.

          The Ashanti place a small piece of iron called akasa on the head of their male drum; this creates an additional jingling and gives rise to discordant sounds, possibly suggesting consonants.”

          https://www.google.com/#tbm=bks&q=ashanti+talking+drum

          https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talking_drum#How_they_.22talk.22

        • Jm8

          An example of traditional balafon music from the broader West Savannah tradition (Senoufo tribe—non Muslims); a distant cousin of a style present among the Mandinka (who also play it) and other Malian groups

        • Jm8

          More examples of Mandinka bardic music (by famous griots Kandia Kouyate and Sory Kandia Kouyate, and generally the pieces played on the lute-harps called tge “kora”):

          https://www.youtube.com/watchv=VrmyiREZ_iw&list=LLffKGNi9kkHT9syiVgo_bwA&index=24

          For Bambara/Bamana music also see “Bakari Jan” and “Da Monzon”—also searchable (griots Bazoumana Sissoko and Fanta Demba do good versions of traditional songs)— or in the comment to the old Ronettes link I posted)

          cont from last post : “…but also in another group of comments below it with more links/videos posted where I discuss the roots of blues—and where I link a group of soudclips of, mostly but not all, North-Central Cameroon music collected by Kubik)”

        • Jm8

          A short mini-doc. on the the Chopi tribe’s style on the Timbila from Mozambique:

        • Jm8

          Terribly sorry. I stupidly posted some’ones playlist by mistake (when I dragged the url to the comment box)
          To Robert: of course I won’t mind if you delete that last post of mine, that is, the one that begins, “I posted the second Mandinka link incorrectly. Here it is…”etc.

          The actually video (hopefully). the second Mandinka link, formerly posted incorrectly. :

        • Jm8

          Examples of Mandinka bardic music on the Kora. The second is about a rich Jula merchant called Jekere. I wrote before:
          “Jelw(casted bards/griots) were sometimes retained by the descendants of notables(like aristocrats/ the common descendants of aristocrats ( to perform praise songs dedicated to their ancestors and epics) and other notables, and were required to memorize the genealogies of prominent families(with famous ancestors), sometimes going back to the middle ages.”

        • Jm8

          Inanga (trough zither) music from Uganda—similar styles exist in Uganda, etc.— (one of many styles from the E. Central African lakes) (also see on youtube: “Rwanyonga na Rwabugiri – Inanga ya Apollinaire RWISHYURA – Rwanda”

          for an example of Xosa music, South Africa, see “Madosini – Wenu Se Goli”, youtube

          For Ashanti seperewa music, youtube “seperewa” or “Osei Korankye”
          (one example: “Osei Korankye & Seperewa Agorofoma – “Adampan Ohimnu”)

          One example of Bwiti music (shamanic/trance music from Gabon, mostly the Fang tribe) is on youtube under the name “Rite Bwiti (extrait) joué par Papé Nziengui” (and filmed in a very handsome traditional Bwiti temple)

        • Jm8

          Correction: “Inanga (trough zither) music from Rwanda (similiar styes exist in Uganda, etc)”

        • Jm8

          The inanga (a bardic instrument) is normanlly (otherwise) played by men.

        • Jm8

          Other very good (perhaps better in some ways) examples of traditional Rwandan (BaRwanda culture) music on youtube:
          “Daniel Ngarukiye – Inkuza”
          and
          Ikibungenge by Daniel Ngarukiye(www.inyaRWANDA.com)

        • To Jm8, question, where do you stand in terms of the origin of Haplogroup E?

          I’ve heard of convincing arguments for either an Asian or East African Hypothesis but I’m unsure.

        • Jm8

          The origin is not yet known, but I think the African origin is somewhat more likely.
          There are currently more known examlples or DE (the parent of D and E) Africa than Asia (though likey exaples are found in both.

          There also seems still to be evidence of Y-dna DE in Africa; Nigeria and Guinea Bissau (and in Jamaica and African Americans), in addition to the DE reported in Asia (possibly Tibet and Syria).

          http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?5790-D-M174-in-Nigeria!

          http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/ajpa.22090/abstract

          I wonder if the DE in Syria could possibly derive from the African slave trade or other contact. (Male derived admixture from Africa in the Arab world is less common generally than female, but exists in some Arab subgroups.)

          https://books.google.com/books?id=jULNCgAAQBAJ&pg=PT180&dq=male+african+slaves+in+the+arab+world&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjNquPU9bHMAhVLbT4KHfIeCK0Q6AEIKDAC#v=onepage&q=male%20african%20slaves%20in%20the%20arab%20world&f=false

          https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zanj_Rebellion#Background

          Also (as others have argued) there are no mtdna lineages in Africa that would be associated with E.

          Niger Congo speakers and Afro Asiatic speakers both are often dominated by (often very different/distant clades of) E (though many Afro Asiatic groups—often being admixed—also have some branches that immediately originate fin the Near East) and many very basal African E varieties being common in the Western Sahel (among Malians like the Dogon and their neighbors).

          E is assoiated with Afro-Asiatic languages and may derive from the earliest Afro Asiatic speakers. In Eurasia, it may have derived from N. East African AA speakers who migrated to S.W Asia (likely in the form of the Natufians/Mushabians who show some Subsaharan ancestry. The (even) earlier proto-Afro Asiatics, thier ancestors, may have originated further south somewhere near/in the inner horn (of Africa).

          Afro Asiatic may have begun as a hybrid of an indigenous Subsaharan language/family of E. Africa and the Near East, formed in the (eastern) horn (a part with more contact with Eurasians) or maybe N.E Africa.

          Afro-Asiatic may also be originally have been a (non hybrid) subsaharan family (the perhaps very basal Omotic branch is spoken by peoples with very little Eurasian dna and is different from other branches) which spread(one form of it that is) to the Near East (some of its branches—Semitic, Berber, and Egyptian—are highly divergent and likely reflect additional influence from native a S.W Eurasian/Mid Eastern language family (one related to surviving ones of the S. caucasus or to Elamite is sometimes posited) encountered by early migrant Afro-Asiatics.

          It may be that Omotic is the only (or one of the few) branch without Mid East influence.
          The predecessors of some of AA’s branches likely became hybridized with Eurasian families either when entering Eurasia, from small back migrations into the horn, or combinations of both.

          Afro Asiatic is sometimes—though debateably—classified within the controversial pan-Western Eurasian super family Nostraic, but I do not think these analysis include Omotic (they are generally biased toward Semitic/Berber ie the Northern branch, which would have recieved the most Eurasian influence.) Whether of hybrid (a sort of contact language) or African origin, the proto AA. speakers would have had subsaharan African ancestry and E may be a contribution from that ancestry.

        • Jm8

          Edits:
          “…likely became hybridized with Eurasian families, either when entering Eurasia, from small back migrations into the horn (from S.W Eurasia), or combinations of both.”

          “Whether of hybrid (a sort of contact language, evolving in N.E Africa (like Egypt), or a more coastal/Eastern Mid East-Accessable part of the horn) or wholly native to Africa at its roots to…., “

        • Jm8

          I diddn’t mean to put another “to” after “roots” above in
          “…native to Africa at its roots…., “
          (it case it makes the sentece unclear)

        • It’s interesting that you mention the Dogon, because linguistically they are said to be very diverged from other NC speakers, so they maybe some representative of the earliest NC-speakers to hold E.

          If I were to guess, though I admit that my Knowledge of this type of science is limited , My thought would be that due to the clade conundrums are the result of an extended though somewhat derived breeding ground of OOA-like people still in Africa that would mix with Paleo Africans to be modern NC speakers.

          Basically, something along the lines of Peter Frost thinking with the Solutrean Hypothesis and the relation between East Asians and Europeans http://evoandproud.blogspot.com/2012/10/a-detour-through-europe.html

        • Jm8

          Edit:
          “Also (as others have argued) there are no mtdna lineages in Africa that would be associated with E., or with DE or with CT.

        • To jm8,

          True regarding Mtdna, so with that noted it a simple migration at least doesn’t make much sense, though considering the higher E diversity it’s would be odd to claim it simply in the first place.

          What can be said though is that, due to the higher diversity in Africa, E’s life in Eurasia prior to entering Africa seems to have been short if we are to believe a Asian Origin.

        • Jm8

          “It’s interesting that you mention the Dogon, because linguistically they are said to be very diverged from other NC speakers, so they maybe some representative of the earliest NC-speakers to hold E.”

          Yes, I think so. I have though this also. It (basal clade(s)) is/are also fairly common in some Mande groups and Mande is a also a pretty divergent (and likely basal) branch of NC, but not so much so (not as basal) as likely are certain Dogon languages.

          The idea in your link does seem somewhat parallel:
          early/proto NC people and (the subsaharan ancestors of) Afro-Asiatics sharing some deep common ancestry native to SS Africa (likely a part of the central Savannah, though its exact climate would depend on the period) which is reflected in some Y lineages, just as West Eurasians and East Asians (i.e the more northernly Eurasian groups) may share a deep common Ancestry from the Eurasian steppe.

        • Jm8

          correction: “There are currently more known examples of DE (the parent…”

        • http://www.unz.com/gnxp/the-great-human-disruptions/#comment-1481520

          Here appears to be some discussion on E with African Versus Asian Origins.

          My take is that basically, you have proto-SSA population, NE African population that in terms of affinity would be closer to Non-Africans of it’s time frame due to it being a remains of OOA events, and then Non Africans proper of “basal” Eurasians.

          Razib mentioned how Eurasian E holders aren’t closer to SSA, this could be that the “Africa” population in the NE region were, as i said, closer to Eurasians.

          http://anthromadness.blogspot.com/2015/02/the-east-african-cluster.html

          So Basically My Idea is, like Steppes populations for East and West Eurasians, A similar idea could applied with AA and NC speakers due to the ancient East African component.

        • Jm8

          “…sharing some deep common ancestry native to SS Africa (likely a part of the central and/or eastern Savannah…

        • Jm8

          “So Basically My Idea is, like Steppes populations for East and West Eurasians, A similar idea could applied with AA and NC speakers due to the ancient East African component.”

          Yes this sounds very plausible, re: this east African cluster (discussed in your second link) which is native to SS Africa (likely similar to the OOA or proto-OOA group), but is present (sometimes in very low levels) even in many North Mid Easterner groups (esp Semitic speaking/Semitc descendants) like N. Levantines and Ashkenazim (who are mostly part Levantine and part S. European/S. Annatolian.)

        • So basically, with some inspiration from Razib khan’s thought, there would be link between the SSA population, East Africa, and Early Middle-eastern populations and E. That East Africa is the root in the form of DE and D with some E had split into ancient Eurasians and an East African population Into proto NC speakers through basal E.

          At the same time though, while I’m unsure of the Likelihood, it could be seen as an ancient asian population forming the AA speakers associated with E stemming from Levantine DE which also produced D in Eurasia. Though in theory that would mean E would’ve had limited success in Eurasia or it could’ve hidden by multiple migrations in Eurasia thus why DE is lower in Levant than in West Africa.

          Question, can you link any info of how basal the DE and E in eurasia is compared to that of West Africa?

        • Jm8

          “At the same time though, while I’m unsure of the Likelihood, it could be seen as an ancient asian population forming the AA speakers associated with E stemming from Levantine DE which also produced D in Eurasia. Though in theory that would mean E would’ve had limited success in Eurasia or it could’ve hidden by multiple migrations in Eurasia thus why DE is lower in Levant than in West Africa.”

          I don’t think this is particularly likely (partly for some the reasons given above; no mtdna lineages associated with them, the part African nature of the early AAs in Asia). Also, multible migrations would have affected the prevalence of DE in Africa also. there is a diversity of E there and there have been many migration of different NC groups within West Africa.

          E is fairly common in (at least parts of) the Mid-East as in Africa (and is significantly more common in Mid East AA, that is Semitic, speakers than other Near Easterners—Annatolians Persians, etc—though present at some levels in some of them and in some S. Europeans), but seems to be overall less diverse there than in Africa.

          “Question, can you link any info of how basal the DE and E in eurasia is compared to that of West Africa?”

          I think some of this is discussed in my earlier two links (about DE in African and Asian groups):

          http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?5790-D-M174-in-Nigeria!

          http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/ajpa.22090/abstract

          regarding E-M123 (one basal E lineage), also known as E1 and E1a (the one common is Mali):

          https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_E-M132#Distribution

          and another, also common in SS Africa, E-M75 also known as E2 and E2a

          https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_E-M75#Distribution

          I will try to find more soon.

        • Jm8

          Edit:
          …(the one common in Mali):…”

        • To Jm8,

          While NC migrations did occur, if the Dogon mean anything it would leave that E was rather prevalent in early NC history, so if migration did occur it would be less with the frequency if E itself but what variant of E.

          Though you make a good point about the Mtdna but this brings up another a possible comparison, how common are AA mtdna types in the R1b chain into Central Africa?

          Technically speaking, in a standard migration from the levant into Africa, the mtdna presence would look something like that. This should give us an Idea.

        • Jm8

          While NC migrations did occur, if the Dogon mean anything it would leave that E was rather prevalent in early NC history, so if migration did occur it would be less with the frequency if E itself but what variant of E.

          “Though you make a good point about the Mtdna but this brings up another a possible comparison, how common are AA mtdna types in the R1b chain into Central Africa?”

          They are not common(y lindeages ten to travel farther than female, fouder effect and all that, though there is usually at least trace—or more—‚of the female lineages of the migrating population (an autosomal dna) in places closer to where the migration began), but I wasn’t just speaking of Mtdna assoiated with E in West Africa but in Africa in general including East. Although there are some old Eurasian Mtdna lineages in parts of East Africa (the horn), they are not though to/are not likely associated with E.

          E within Africa is thought to be associated with mtdna L3 (or at least certain branches of it), which is native to Africa (and widespread among some African groups, many of them being E bearers), as well as associated with pre-OOA populations (it is the precourser to Eurasian N and M). Ouside Afrca, E is thought by some to be linked to certain L3 clades and other very old (bu rare in Eurasia) L subsaharan lineages (of whic I will try to find more

        • Jm8

          “While NC migrations did occur, if the Dogon mean anything it would leave that E was rather prevalent in early NC history, so if migration did occur it would be less with the frequency if E itself but what variant of E.”

          That variant of E (and the other I linked) is a very basal on (more so than many other common ones in W. Africa (outside the general Mali region) let alone the Mid East. Migrations, involved /could involve multiple SS African variants of E. (but I’ll try to look into the history of clades in those region in more detail)

        • Jm8

          R1b in Central Africa is extremely rare and only present in a tiny group of Chadic speaking tribes in the Mandara mountain region of Cameroon (not other Cameroonians), (in W, Africa , also to lesser extent, in the Speaking Hausa.

          One very common/successful clade of E In West Africa with many branches with complex histories of interaction/migration (which is fairly distant from E1/Ea, the former being basal, hence the diversity) is E1b1a

          https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_E-V38#Distribution

        • Jm8

          edit: “(…in W, Africa , also to lesser extent, in the Hausa.”

        • Jm8

          “…how common are AA mtdna types in the R1b chain into Central Africa?”

          Also, R1b woul not have been ariginally associated wit AA, but likely with another group (originally of Eurasian origin), that was at some point “Afro-Asiaticized” (as non-R1a Western Europeans were eventually Indo-Europeanized), and which later absorbed peoples of SSA origin—a mix of originally NC and NiloSaharan groups in the Chad basin Area, some of whise languages still survive (the majority of the ancestors of Hausas and Mandara peoples.).

          But although the (autosomal) ancestry of most Chadic speakers—Hausas and Mandara tribes) is overwhelmingly SS African, I believe there may be low levels of (other kinds of ) Eurasian mtdna lineages in some of them (possibly related to those present in many Berber groups. Berbers are the mixed partly AA/Afro-Asiaticized descendants of a pre-existing group of Eurasian origin that predated AAs in the Northern Sahara—whose original language is now lost—, and also sometimes carry significant R1b as well as E—usually E1b1b, which is the clade most common in Berbers and Middle Easterners.

        • Jm8

          Edit/Cont:
          “(Western Europeans were eventually Indo-Europeanized, West Europeans being strongly-mostly R1b, while the original IEs were likely mostly R1a like many Eastern Europeans)”

        • Jm8

          “…and NiloSaharan groups in the Chad basin Area, some of whose languages still survive in that Area…”

        • To Jm8,

          I see your point. http://racialreality.blogspot.com/2013/10/haplogroups-l3-and-e-asian-not-african.html

          Looking at the quoted articles of this post supporting an asian origin for these Haplogroups, they could also be scene as Ancient E african Haplogroups.

          Concerning L3 it was timed during the OOA split, so technically considering how the East African cluster is really just a remaining OOA cluster it;s possible the the L3 seen is some SSA are remains some East Africans expanding West. Then again, it could’ve been a back migration as said in the article though perhaps the population in the early middle east still keep link with other populations in NE Africa. The former and possibly the latter is supported by the high L3 in NE africa.

          As from E, the article seems to be in agreement that DE is African and was the base for E and D, but disagrees somewhat in the terminology respect geographical origin.

          https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_DE

          DE was found in Asia, which supports the idea that D evolved in Asia from DE. As for E, considering the range in both West Eurasia and Africa, my thoughts are that it;s possible for a NE route because that would explain the more versatile range compared to D.

          Plus, as you mentioned, the E present In some Malians for example is very basal, the most basal being founded in the precise location I thought of.

          http://dienekes.blogspot.com/2006/07/new-paper-on-haplogroup-e-m78.html

          So what I’m thinking is that DE left Africa, splitting into D which traveled with some DE into East Asia and E stayed and expanded outside of Africa through connection between connections with SW asia.

          But I have a question, aren’t both DE supposed to split and exist at the same time? If so, Modern D distributions may be different from past ones.

          Honestly either origins seems fuzzy.

        • Jm8

          This idea of L3 as Asian is generally not supported/opposed and is even weaker than the Asian E theory (will look for cites).

          “So what I’m thinking is that DE left Africa, splitting into D which traveled with some DE into East Asia and E stayed and expanded outside of Africa through connection between connections with SW asia.”

          I think I would agree (E staying and then expanding from Africa to W. Asia, with some derived/later E lineages—like E1b1b—back migrating to—namely North—Africa.).

          “If so, Modern D distributions may be different from past ones.”

          They may be. Dna studies of ancient remains will help clarify things

          “Honestly either origins seems fuzzy.”

          True. It does at the moment (though one hypothesis seems—to me—somewhat more likely than the other, much about ancient population history is still uncertain.)

        • Jm8

          “…would agree (E staying in Africa and then expanding from Africa to W. Asia, with…..”

        • Jm8

          “…would agree (E diverging in Africa, staying there, and then expanding from Africa to W. Asia, with…..”

        • Jm8

          “it;s possible the the L3 seen is some SSA are remains some East Africans expanding West.”

          Yes probably, also since many W, African groups, esp. in the Savannah have very ancient (non-Eurasian admixed) East African/E. African-like ancestry (the aforementioned East African cluster), possiple reflecting the Easternly origin of NC and its distant/deep relationship to Nilo-Saharan as well as the native African sources of early AA peoples.

        • Jm8

          re: L3

          https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_L3_(mtDNA)#Origin

          L3 also has more diversity and is more basal in Africa.

        • Jm8

          The only issue with the above is that the possible origin of L3 may have been pushed back in time somewhat in recent estimates (there is some uncertainty over the precise date)

        • Jm8

          Correction: Nevermind, I believe the range of possible times is mentioned in the article .

        • http://www.forumbiodiversity.com/archive/index.php/t-34840.html

          BTW Jm8, I wanted to bring this up.

          I’ve never connected the dots before, an noting the pseudo-Asian eyes, the short round heads, and lighter skin of Guinesids like Igboes makes me think about that HG component detected in them from the genome project on SSA populations.

          John Baker’s “Race” even mentions how it was hypothesized that people in that region had an element of capoid admixture due to their overlap.

          Your thoughts?

        • Jm8

          Ancestry from “Capoids”, or from an ancient indigenous (to the region) race with some traits shared with Capoids due to distant common ancestry; something along those lines is quite possible.

        • Jm8

          Cont.: …as well as local adaptation as a factor

      • Jm8

        “I would add context in regards to them being more expressive…”

        This also varies by region. Many W. Sahel/Savannah peoples (e.g. the Wolofs, the Fulanis, the Hausa)—as well as some E. African groups—are often said to be stoic, and more reserved and taciturn—at least to outsiders, while other groups, like S. Nigerians (and maybe S. Ghanains to a somewhat lesser extent), for instance the Yoruba, are stereotyped as more, flamboyant dramatic and flashy—a bit like like the stereotypes of Meditterranean people.

        • That seems to make sense.

          I believe this goes into differences of selection breeding regarding introversion and extroversion. While both likely practice monogamy, the nature of the former’s monogamy was less like K selection and more like R selection regarding group cooperation and investment based on what I’ve read on Madinkas.

          Granted I have read of similar developing cases of such a nature in S. Nigeria, but not as strict as with what I’ve read with Muslims.

        • Jm8

          This may not be the main reason, though it could be among the factors. South Nigerians have have a fairly high level of culture also (though there is, as you know, ethnic and sub-ethnic group cultural variation….)

          “Granted I have read of similar developing cases of such a nature in S. Nigeria,…”

          Yes, I would agree there were.

          “…but not as strict as with what I’ve read with Muslims.”

          This may be somewhat true, but it really would depend of the group, and Islam in the Savannah may have not that much to do with it—at least often not (not that you were necessarily saying it did). Many in the Savannah region are not Muslim or have not been for long (like Wolofs who islamised recently, some Fulani and Hausa groups, the Bambara, and many more).

          As mentioned, Mediterranean and some Mid. Eastern people are often stereotyped somewhat similarly (including Ashkenazim whose culture has Meditteranean roots)—and also as pushy (as are S. Nigerians).

        • Jm8

          “…including Ashkenazim to some extent…”

        • Reagrding Islam I didn’t mean it as the sole reason behind the differences, but rather it provided additional structure to pre-existing forms of polgamy.

    • TRASH

      Truthfully both Asians and Jews are at least as smart as White Christians and possibly smarter in addiction to having a cultural emphasis on education, family, frugality, worship of money.

      Generally, though not always, their families are not broken. Socially and culturally they have many assets.

      White Anglo Christian society is collapsing into teen pregnancy, single parenthood, drugs and so on.

      Are NAMS even less successful. Much. They’ll barely even function without heaps of subsidization as a society.

  16. IF one was to say;
    “Chinks are boring and non-creative”, and don’t have good personalities, but Whites do, surely one most realize Blacks have even more outgoing personalities, and are the most creative.

    They’ll deny the latter but go with the former.
    These people aren’t really looking for the truth, at all. It’s all just a massive schtick.

    • Jason Y

      I’m not sure if blacks are more creative or equally creative with whites. As we have seen, the blues and jazz, both improvisational generes were founded by blacks, and most of the performers have been black, but whites have also done well in that stuff.

  17. I’m off the HBD plantation……

    a proud ‘trans-Chink’

  18. Jason Y

    Sometimes alpha male behavior could be mistaken for dumb in WNs or in other cases they are really are dumb.😆

  19. TRASH

    Most guys that live on the muscle are dumb and this is why they end up being the ones stuck in some city in economic decline unable to leave when it is clear the jobs are not coming back.

    Take them out of their element and most of them are scared, too.

  20. TJF

    To Rob:

    HBD in and of itself is not racist of course, not in any sane sense of the word.

    If we stick with the dictionary version of the word racism it would appear that aspects of HBD meet the definition: believing that genetic differences exist among races and some of those differences give advantage of one race over another:

    http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/racism

    “a belief that race is the primary determinant of human traits and capacities and that racial differences produce an inherent superiority of a particular race”

    One can certainly have a belief in HBD but not display racial animus towards those who belong to a race that generally under performs but per the definition above major components of HBD could be construed as racist. As you noted in the post you linked, the words racism and racist are tossed around so frequently over minor issues that they are starting to lose meaning. I looked at a 1973 version of Merriam Webster’s dictionary which classified racism as fear and hatred towards others races or racial prejudice not inherit racial differences. American sociologists claim that non-whites can’t be racist since racism = prejudice plus power, since in their minds only whites have power in the US, ludicrous but that is what is being sold, so I guess that lets Jayman, Razib Khan, Stephen Hsu, and our Phil off the hook.

    Almost all HBD is a hate ideology in one way or another.

    HBD certainly attracts hateful people .. at least those who publicly state it has merit.. in my circles if one were to publicly or even privately advocate that racial differences in intelligence, behavior, or athleticism are based upon genetics they would get shunned quickly. It’s become a taboo discussion. I have an aunt by marriage, a psychiatrist who’s quite left (and Jewish FWIW) and was anti-racist when it was dangerous (early 60s, member of SNCC). She was talking about how smart her other nephew is (who’s Jewish). Through a series of direct and indirect questions that I asked over a period of 30 minutes, I got her basically to admit that she thought he was very smart because of his Jewish genetic background. She sort of got pissed at me when she realized what I had done but understood I wasn’t going to out her.

    • aunt “by marriage”…..

      Whatever you say…….

      • TJF

        To Chiune Sugihara:

        aunt “by marriage”…..
        Whatever you say…….

        Yeah she’s married to mother’s brother who’s full on goy. Are channeling SamJ? Those crypto Jews are everywhere even working in the local Dairy Queen….

        • my aunt by marriage has a Jewish stepmother….
          but I’m not sure.

          My dad’s second Cousin has a Jewish ex-Wife and half-Jewish daughter.

          My Paternal Grandfather/my real surname is linked to Sephardim, although I only know of Catholics on that side of the family.

        • Trump and Clinton have a ton of Jewish family members, of course.

          Romney and Obama both didn’t, although Joe Biden’s Son married a Jewess.

          McCain’s son has a Black wife, and he got in some spats with alt-reich trolls over it. (((Jake Tapper))) defended McCain Jr., of course.

      • Robert Lindstein’s prolific commentators;

        Jewson Yiddish (Jason Y)
        Jewlio (Tulio)
        Total Jew face (TJF)
        Rat faced k!ke (Matt)
        Jew Man 8 (JM8)
        Philosemite (Phil)

  21. I’m not really Asian in many senses.

    I have a pretty bad serotonin imbalance, something that apparently is really not common in Asians.
    But I am pretty ‘k selective’ of a personality, although I do enjoy humor like what’s on this blog from time to time.

  22. I swear Melania Trump is an Asian pretending to be White.
    Maybe just for Trump’s candidacy.

    I mean, look at her;

    pretty Asiatic looking around the eyes.
    Maybe it’s just plastic surgery. Idk.

    • in all seriousness, she’s Eastern European, which has a few percentage points on average of Asian DNA. Maybe she ranks high for the EEs in this regard and is like 10% or something.

      • TRASH

        You marry a woman whose grandmother was Japanese and met her American husband in the military when he was stationed in Japan.

        You have a child with her and that child is 12% Asian. This is essentially what an Eastern European is.

        Asians have been invading Europe since Rome.

      • Jm8

        A few Asian traits seem to persist rather strongly for a while in some cases. Or rather at least one, the epcanthic fold, seems to be that way in many. Some half-Asians do not have it (though many, seemingly most, seem to—and quite few of those less than half Asian),. But I (and many on my family on the mostly non-Caucasian side) have it, despite my being only maybe 8-12 or so% (likely near the low end) Amerindian. (Amerindians sometimes have it, more in some subgroups.)

        I sometimes, also having beige skin, loosely wavy black hair and somewhat high cheekbones, (though the last is also common in Africans and some caucasoid subgroups), am mistaken for more strongly mongoloid. I have occasionally been taken for Mexican (though more often for Puerto Rican or Middle Eastern/Meditteranean), and even on a few occaisions for Asian (I’m pretty racially ambiguous. When I darken in the sun I also can look vaguely like an Indian/S. Asian or Whiter horn African.)

    • TRASH

      She is Asian to a degree as are many Eastern Europeans. Ghengis Khan has something like a million descendants personally in Southern Europe.

      Eastern Europeans are as Mongolian as Mexicans are European. Which is to say a 10% admixture.

    • TRASH

      Tartar or Mongol. Both tribes arrived from China and just raped the hell out of Caucasian women in the 13th century or so in Slovenia, Hungary, Bulgaria, Lithuania.

      • Jm8

        Certain features (vaguely similiar looks): squarish faces, short/lowbridged noses, high cheekbones (to some extent), which are found found in Asians, are also native(and somewhat common, though less than in Asia) to parts of Northern/EasternCentral Europe, and are likely associated with the ancestry of the native hunter gatherer peoples of those places, and are traits shared by the common ancestors of them and Asians (and the common ancestors of modern humans to some degree at least, since vagueky similiar traits occur at least moderately often in some African and other groups also).

        So admixture is not necessariy the only reason for a vaguely Asian-like appearance, though it is certainly a factor in some, as specially in the farther East of Euroope

        Althouh there were Tatars in the Baltic incl. Lithuania, and in Crimea (and other parts of E. Europe, their descendants now are fairly mixed— and there were never that many there I don’t think—, and the general population (at least in the Baltic,) has very little to no Asian Ancestry(as the map in my link shows.

        • Jm8

          “…farther East of Europe”

          i.e. some of the more Eastern part of Eastern Europe

        • TRASH

          Charles Bronson, Leonard Nimoy and Steven Seagal are the kids of Eastern Europeans who have frequently played Asians or Native Americans for a reason.

          They look it.

        • Jm8

          Seagal had a Mongolian grandfather. He did look vaguely Asian/Amerindian.

          https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steven_Seagal

          Leonard Nemoy did not really look Asian (the Vulcan wig and makeup might have made him look a bit pseudo-Asian). And he was of Jewish decent, and Jews from central and Eastern Europe generally do not have much native E. European ancestry. They came to E. Europe through Germany, and before that from the Mediterranean and Middle East (many of their ancestors into Europe through Italy). They are mostly a Levantive/S. Europe mix, with very minor E. and Central European). They tend to look Mediterranean rather than E. Euro or Asian, though there are exceptions.

        • Jm8

          Charles Bronson might be a good example. But the other factor (features derived from native hunter gatherers and groups evolutionariy intermediate between W. and East Eurasians) may be at play also.

        • Jm8

          Edit: “…shared features derived from native hunter gatherers…”

  23. TRASH

    Seagal is a Russian-Jewish American (His father was an immigrant mathematics prof) and has told so many stories about his life that being Mongolian sounds like one of them, but Mongolia has a few Jews.

    Nimoy looks like a Khazar for my money as oppose to Sephardic like Seinfeld (They look quite Hispanic) as he is a Ukrainian Jew whose family was probably Russian but again we are moving into the grey area of debate.

    Bronson’s father was registered as”Lipkin-Tartar” with the Lithuanian government (Mongolians who had settled in Lithuania and spoke a different language). Mongolians in the Baltic often remained as distinct communities as have the Huns in Hungary but we must also assume that a great deal of admixture occurred.

    • Jm8

      “Seagal is Russian-Jewish American.”
      Seagal is only one quarter Jewish, half (non-Jewish) west European (his mother was Dutch, English, and German) , and (possibly) one quarter Mongolian (his Mongolian grandfather—if he had one—would of course, not have been Jewish).

      Nimoy is Ashkenazic, as he and his family sploke Yiddish, and Ashkenazim generally have little to no Khazar ancestry—he could have a little, or more than average I guess, and be an anomaly, but who knows. A better candidate for Khazar descendants might be the Krymchak Jews)— (Ashkenazim are mostly Eastern Meditteranean—S. Europe + Mid Eastern—, with ony a little Eastern/Central European, as explained above, and are genetically close the the Sephardim and old Italian Jews or Italkim).

      Seinfeld is not Sephardic. He is half Ashkenazic and Half Syrian Jewish (hence his name). Syrian Jews and Ashkenazim are pretty close in ancestry too (His parrecnts look rather alike). Sephardim (Jews who came from Spain and Portugal) still have alot of Levantine (Syreo/Palestinian) ancestey—as do Ashkenazim—but they (Sephardim) have some native Spanish/Iberian admixture as well.

      If Bronson was part Tatar, that might help explain his ambiguous/vaguely mongoloid appearance.

      There is no distinct comminity of Huns in Hungary. Huns were absorbed culturally and genetically long ago in Central Europe in late antiquity/early Medieval times (but they were likley Altaic speaking, like the Mongols and Tatars, and thus the relatives of both). Tatars are indeed a distinct community in those places.

      • Jm8

        “Tatars are indeed a distinct community in those places (parts of the Baltic).”

      • Jm8

        Edit: “…and are genetically close to the Sephardim and old Italian Jews or Italkim).”…

      • TRASH

        Sure, Asiatics have been absorbed into the gene pool of Slavs but the point is that it is possible to see say that Eurasians in places like Hungary or Bulgaria are not a recent phenomenon.

        Asians would like to portray Europeans as the invaders and colonizers but medieval history was full Chinese tribes (Mongols, Huns, Tartars) raping and pillaging Europe.

        I’m not exactly sure why the Asians mastered the art of horse-riding so early in history.

  24. Chinedu

    HBDers are generally not very bright, which is a delicious irony. Nobody that presents arguments that any 8 year old could deconstruct could ever be described as intelligent. Most of them suffer from deep pangs of inferiority, which they hope to assuage by clinging to this junk. No happy, successful, rational and well-adjusted individual is going to devote his or her life to “proving” that black people are inferior. For some of them it literally is their life’s work and a full-time, all-consuming profession.

    Then you have to so-called black or other minority HBDers who are little more than modern day uncle toms. They’re obviously just as dumb and just as delusional as their white colleagues, with the added dimension that they are sniveling, boot licking, self-hating clowns.

  25. Chinedu does have somewhat of a point that the Cold Weather Theory is weak; Africa has a harsh environment.

    If not why did the first leap from Animal to Human (for intelligence) happen, if not that it was not ‘easy to survive’ as monkeys.

    • “Chinedu does have somewhat of a point that the Cold Weather Theory is weak; Africa has a harsh environment.”

      Define weak and define harsh. You need to understand that Africa (the tropical regions) have more resources compared to Eurasia, Eurasia’s pressures are better set for K selection. Even then, these variables are only partially responsible.

      plus, and I’m sorry, bur IQ graphs show a pretty clear cline N-S with IQ magnitude. I’m not seeing how it’s weak.

      • Phil- Yes, the N-S theory is very strong in terms of test results.
        But I’m saying it might not be because of genetic selection per se.

        The first leaps from Animals to humans (Selection for intelligence), and perhaps the greatest EVER in our history, occurred in Africa.
        That would indicate the “easy to survive” thing is sketchy.

        It could be that various regions of Africa and various regions weren’t. I’d like to see test Country by country to show how well various Black ethnicities do; Blacks are most diverse as you know, anyway.

        • various regions in Africa were easy to survive, and some weren’t.

          I’d suspect some Black ethnicities are quite bright, and had selection for intelligence (as first occured when we came from apes at the dawn of our history) and some haven’t

      • you might not understand my word salad.

        Afrosapiens could explain it better, he’s made this same point before.

    • Chinedu

      It’s a stupid theory, Phil. Give it a rest. Number one, Africa consisted of dense, forbidding jungles in addition to Savannah areas. Secondly, what the fuck makes you think a Savannah somehow required less intelligence to survive? Show me a credible scientist who would make that silly statement. Have you ever heard of water? We need water more than food. Cold? We can protect ourselves from cold but we’re helpless against heat.

      I see you haven’t stopped your practice of presenting bullshit HBD theories as facts.

      Fact: White people couldn’t even go into the African interior until modern medicines came online in the late 19th century. Conversely, Africans didn’t need medicine to go into Eurasia. So whose environment better prepared them?

      Fact: Strong powerful animals today die of thirst and hunger in Africa. Conversely, no animal dies of cold in Eurasia.

    • Chinedu

      “You need to understand that Africa (the tropical regions) have more resources compared to Eurasia, Eurasia’s pressures are better set for K selection. Even then, these variables are only partially responsible.”

      This is unadulterated bullshit. You are an uneducated simpleton of the highest order.

      Forget about oil and mineral deposits. Those aren’t resources. In terms of survival resources Eurasia was a fucking paradise compared to Africa.

      Here’s what Chris Peers, an imminent scholar and historian says on the subject:

      “No other inhabited continent appears so hostile to human life. Most of the interior is a vast, elevated plateau cut off from the narrow coastal plain by mountains and escarpments. To the north, access from Europe is cut off by the Sahara Desert, an obstacle as formidable as any ocean. South of the Sahara the coast has few useful harbours, and formidable rapids make most of the rivers unnavigable. Deserts and jungles cover huge areas, while elsewhere the soil is often too poor to support a dense agricultural population, or alternating droughts and floods make farming a precarious business. Malaria and a host of other endemic diseases affect people and their livestock, and in places make life impossible for newcomers without the benefit of natural immunity or modern medicines.”

      From: The African Wars

      This is a real authority, not some junior Internet troll who’s been wasting his life surfing nonsensical HBD blogs.

      Eurasia’s pressure’s are better set for K selection you say? Yet they popped out babies like rabbits, much more than Africans. You’re another ideologue who saw some fancy terms online and embraced it without ever making an effort to understand it.

    • “It’s a stupid theory, Phil. Give it a rest. Number one, Africa consisted of dense, forbidding jungles in addition to Savannah areas. Secondly, what the fuck makes you think a Savannah somehow required less intelligence to survive?”

      Actually if you see my response to you that would be incorrect.

      “Show me a credible scientist who would make that silly statement. Have you ever heard of water? We need water more than food. Cold? We can protect ourselves from cold but we’re helpless against heat.”

      You no what decreases in intense the cold? Vegatation…and heat to keep you alive.

      “I see you haven’t stopped your practice of presenting bullshit HBD theories as facts.”

      And I see you don;t know how to argue as always.

      “Fact: White people couldn’t even go into the African interior until modern medicines came online in the late 19th century. Conversely, Africans didn’t need medicine to go into Eurasia. So whose environment better prepared them?”

      You seem misunderstand “harsh” versus “intelligence selection”. The reason why was that Africa had diseases that they didn’t adapted to genetically, that didn’t require evolutionary brainpower. Also you seem to ignore how Europeans managed to invent medicine to go into there.

      Prior colonies with europeans were near coast and explorations were done by aid of native, so it;s not like they didn’t circumvent the issue prior to that medicine.

      “Fact: Strong powerful animals today die of thirst and hunger in Africa. Conversely, no animal dies of cold in Eurasia.”

      …….you idiot. One, you are being incredible vague. If you mean by droughts in the DESERT then true, but Africa is not just ONE type of warm climate. You also have tropic RICH with life and resources.

      Also, NO animal dies in the cold? http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2300291/Think-YOU-feel-chilly-Britains-animals-freezing-death.html

      • Chinedu

        “You no what decreases in intense the cold? Vegatation…and heat to keep you alive.”

        Only near the poles or on top of high mountains. There was no intense cold that killed off vegetation in Eurasia. What kills vegetation is drought conditions and poor soil, not cold. People don’t stop farming up north because it gets cold.

        “You seem misunderstand “harsh” versus “intelligence selection”. The reason why was that Africa had diseases that they didn’t adapted to genetically, that didn’t require evolutionary brainpower. Also you seem to ignore how Europeans managed to invent medicine to go into there.”

        And who are you to suggest which environment enhanced “intelligence selection?” Particularly when you’ve presented no evidence whatsoever to support it.

        “The reason why was that Africa had diseases that they didn’t adapted to genetically, that didn’t require evolutionary brainpower.”

        Haha. Laughable. The African environment primed Homo sapiens for survival. Those that remained in Africa retained that evolutionary advantage while the bottlenecked and inbred non-Africans lost it over time.

        “Also you seem to ignore how Europeans managed to invent medicine to go into there.”

        And you seem to ignore that many European medicines are based on African pharmaceuticals,

        WESTERN BIOPIRACY OF AFRICAN MEDICINES:

        http://www.thepatriot.co.zw/old_posts/western-biopiracy-of-african-medicines-part-one/

        “you idiot. One, you are being incredible vague. If you mean by droughts in the DESERT then true, but Africa is not just ONE type of warm climate. You also have tropic RICH with life and resources.”

        Every dry season in vast swaths of Africa tens of thousands of animals die, including elephants and lions. They die from drought, from lack of vegetation, from lack of prey animals etc. This is every year, not some once in a blue moon occurrence like the article you posted describes.

      • “Only near the poles or on top of high mountains. There was no intense cold that killed off vegetation in Eurasia. What kills vegetation is drought conditions and poor soil, not cold. People don’t stop farming up north because it gets cold.”

        Due to modern technology yes, but in the past with Winters it was harder to survive, plus the winters themselves were tougher.

        Also you don’t need to go to the poles if you read my links.

        Chinedu, are you saying plants can’t freeze to death? ever heard of crops dying in the winter?

        “And who are you to suggest which environment enhanced “intelligence selection?” Particularly when you’ve presented no evidence whatsoever to support it.”

        Strategies to survive in the harsh winters and colder environments of the past.

        “Haha. Laughable. The African environment primed Homo sapiens for survival. Those that remained in Africa retained that evolutionary advantage while the bottlenecked and inbred non-Africans lost it over time.”

        East African environment for one, significantly different from West African Tropics.

        “And you seem to ignore that many European medicines are based on African pharmaceuticals,”

        That link has nothing to do with the medicine from the 19th century.

        “Every dry season in vast swaths of Africa tens of thousands of animals die, including elephants and lions. They die from drought, from lack of vegetation, from lack of prey animals etc. This is every year, not some once in a blue moon occurrence like the article you posted describes.”

        https://www.rt.com/news/321757-winter-russia-tigers-starve/ Progressively worst winters in Siberia.

        https://books.google.com/books?id=yvGkDWBoXHsC&pg=PA37&lpg=PA37&dq=Taiga+animal+starvation&source=bl&ots=7hVxe-G1It&sig=PyP2ViQ1O2RfrHa9Vd-Sdmkv4TE&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwj4i4LWna7PAhXDZiYKHVHnCTIQ6AEIKzAC#v=onepage&q=Taiga%20animal%20starvation&f=false

        • Chinedu

          Nobody lived with the kind of cold you are describing. Even Russia has sweltering summers. I know. I was there during one such summer.

          Yes, crops can die in the cold. But in drought conditions or with naturally poor soil (as exists in much of Africa), you can’t plant at all.

          “Strategies to survive in the harsh winters and colder environments of the past.”

          You mean like apelike Neanderthals or even Homo Erectus before them?

          Let’s see:
          Wear animal fur
          Go into caves
          Build a fire.
          Scavenge dead animals that were preserved where they fell.
          Use the permafrost for refrigeration.
          Turn caves into giant refrigerators so you can sit on your ass and not have to plan for the future or hunt regularly.

          Yeah, genius stuff I must say.

          I notice you’re reduce to citing places like Siberia, when in fact few Europeans have ever lived there. Very funny.

      • Chinedu

        Deer no longer have any natural predators, dummy. So of course some of them are going to starve.

        The tundra you are referring too exists in places near the North and South Poles where there is very little human habitation. So it’s a moot point. Sure, those are harsh areas to live in but people don’t live there.

        • “Deer no longer have any natural predators, dummy. So of course some of them are going to starve.”

          The Vaption under the picture plainly said.

          “While hunting this weekend, Dan Schmidt found this deer frozen to death in its bed. The deer had no visible signs of injury, but it is unlikely that it died from starvation. (photo copyright Daniel E. Schmidt)”

          “The tundra you are referring too exists in places near the North and South Poles where there is very little human habitation. So it’s a moot point. Sure, those are harsh areas to live in but people don’t live there.”

          People live in tundras and in slightly warmer Taiga regions.

          https://www.reference.com/world-view/people-live-tundra-37641768bae9829a

          Also, consider past winters.

          http://historybuff.com/how-did-people-survive-winter-in-the-middle-ages-this-history-buff-decided-to-find-out-first-hand-Y2ayd3eMDvNg

        • Chinedu

          How do you know what the deer died of? Did they conduct an autopsy? Do you think animals live forever? Do we live forever? Just because they found a carcass covered in snow doesn’t mean it died of exposure. Deer have lived in that environment for millions of years.

          “The Tundra is located all over the world. Located in Alaska, Northern Canada, edges of Greenland, Northern Scandinavia, northern Siberia, and Russia. ”

          http://www.ri.net/schools/West_Warwick/manateeproject/Tundra/Land.htm

          Yes, a smattering of people live in the tundra. People also live in the Sahara and Kalahari deserts, which are even harsher than the tundra. But it would be disingenuous of me to cite those deserts as examples of a typical African environment. But being a lying HBD clown you have no such scruples.

        • I’m not claiming how the deer died, I gave you a quote from the article’s caption saying it was unlikely.

          If you read the article it explains how you can determined how it died.

          “Yes, a smattering of people live in the tundra. People also live in the Sahara and Kalahari deserts, which are even harsher than the tundra. But it would be disingenuous of me to cite those deserts as examples of a typical African environment. But being a lying HBD clown you have no such scruples.”

          Well one you were the one talking about how the could was easy to live in, so I gave information showing the opposite, then you said it wasn’t as applicable to to humans, then I gave evidence of how humans do live in those areas and explained how winters were worst in the past due to weather differences and less standard technology.

    • “This is unadulterated bullshit. You are an uneducated simpleton of the highest order.

      Forget about oil and mineral deposits. Those aren’t resources. In terms of survival resources Eurasia was a fucking paradise compared to Africa.”

      https://www.google.com/search?q=arable+land&rlz=1CAACAJ_enUS665US665&oq=arable+land&aqs=chrome..69i57.2603j0j9&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8#q=arable+land+in+africa

      As for the mentions of Africa’s soil being to poor, that’s because of overfarming.

      http://www.economist.com/blogs/baobab/2013/09/farming-africa

      “Eurasia’s pressure’s are better set for K selection you say? Yet they popped out babies like rabbits, much more than Africans. You’re another ideologue who saw some fancy terms online and embraced it without ever making an effort to understand it.”

      Actually no, you are describing r-selection not K. As for “europeans popping babies”.

      https://www.google.com/search?q=r%2Fk+selection&rlz=1CAACAJ_enUS665US665&oq=r%2Fk+selection&aqs=chrome..69i57j69i58j69i60.7283j0j9&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8#q=what+continent+has+the+highest+birth+rate

      • Chinedu

        I wasn’t talking about present day African birth rates, dummy. As you are ascribing every human trait and attribute to genetics we are obliged to go back in time to pre-modern era. In those times it was the Africans that were K selected, not the Europeans and Asians. China alone had 3 or 4 times the population of Africa for hundreds of years. And Europeans used to pop out as many babies as possible, hoping that at least a few would survive. They did volume breeding because life in Europe was so precarious and untenable due to disease, starvation, murder, you name it. Consequently Europe was grossly overpopulated which was one of the main drivers of European expansion overseas.

      • Jm8

        I’ don’t know about Europe having higher birthrates than Africa in the past (that’s very questionable, but this would vary by region/ethnicity—but overall seems unlikely), but it did have high birth rates in the past (they began to decrase during the indistrial revolution, and less than a century ago, many European ethnic groups/nations had quite high birth rates (data to compare with Africa and other non-western places might be hard to find, as it was not kept as precisely then, if at all)

        Until recently (ca. 1950s-80s) much of Asia(incl. India, China, and Central Asia) had high birthrates in the subsaharan range (they are still very high, as in high by subsaharan standards, in Afghanistan today) as well as the heavily mongoloid (specifically Amerindian) populations of Central America and the Andes.

        https://www.google.com/search?q=birth+rates+by+country&biw=1265&bih=800&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&sqi=2&ved=0ahUKEwjG9YPKv6_NAhWDFR4KHRkiD7AQ_AUIBygC#imgrc=kYCQtRilBUkd2M%3A

        https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Total_fertility_rate

      • “I wasn’t talking about present day African birth rates, dummy. As you are ascribing every human trait and attribute to genetics we are obliged to go back in time to pre-modern era.”

        One I never said that every human traits is contributed to genetics, at least some aspect are partially controlled by environmental factors such as resource depravity.

        “In those times it was the Africans that were K selected, not the Europeans and Asians.” Proof?

        “China alone had 3 or 4 times the population of Africa for hundreds of years.” Proof?

        “And Europeans used to pop out as many babies as possible, hoping that at least a few would survive. They did volume breeding because life in Europe was so precarious and untenable due to disease, starvation, murder, you name it. Consequently Europe was grossly overpopulated which was one of the main drivers of European expansion overseas.”

        Again, proof?

        Even if this were all true, it’s possible for population genetics even within that span of time to change.

        Not only that, but you no proof to compare it with SSA.

  26. Pingback: Is HBD an Ideology of Hatred and Racism?: A Reply to Robert Lindsay « NotPoliticallyCorrect

  27. Pingback: NotPoliticallyCorrect’s Rejoinder to My Piece on HBD and Racism | Beyond Highbrow - Robert Lindsay

  28. Chinedu you were born and raised as a child in Nigeria?

    iirc you said something about how the “diversity is our strength” quote is also used a lot in Nigeria?
    Does this relate to Yorubas and Igboes getting along?

    • Chinedu

      Chiune,

      I was born and partly raised in Nigeria. I arrived in the U.S. at the age of 8.

      To answer your question, accept in the areas run by racist white minority regimes, black Africans never really had a consciousnesses of being black. Rather there was/is a tribal consciousness. So with hundreds of tribes in Nigeria, with different languages, cultures, diets and ways of life, Nigeria is an extremely diverse country. It isn’t just a Yoruba/Igbo dynamic.Even closely related tribes, in close proximity, will have varying degrees of conflict. But the most glaring dissimilarity was/is with the Hausas in the North. The Igbos and Hausas were the principal antagonists in the Biafra war.

      Tribalism is antithetical to the formation of a modern nation state. The Asians and Europeans had it, but they were coerced and beaten down over time into more unitary national and political entities. This hasn’t happened yet in Africa. So a lot of the problems in Africa HBD racists ascribe to inherent lack of smarts are really borne of tribalism.

      By the way, Chiune sounds like and Igbo name.

      • “This hasn’t happened yet in Africa. So a lot of the problems in Africa HBD racists ascribe to inherent lack of smarts are really borne of tribalism.”

        This I must objectively agree with. Blacks in modern african countries lack the nationalism, making me hesitant to honestly say that they’re “nations” due to the lack of sincerity on their behalf of such a perception. And from what I’ve read, it was sort of designed in colonial times so revolts would back fire.

        Overall Chinedu does have a good grasp on this if anything.

      • I firmly reject the notion of “White genocide”.

        Arabs and Hispanics are mostly White by DNA, yet are somehow killing off Whites?
        It’s illogical. It’s just inter-race tribalism, like what we see in Africa.

        Tribalism is the antithesis of modern societies, for tribalism does not allow groups to adapt and work around their own flaws, it’s a mantra of ‘we’re always right’; it’s inherently right wing.

        The famous Chiune Sugihara was Japanese of course, but it is interesting that it sounds like/is an Igbo name.

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