Organized Versus Unorganized Violence

Bay Area Guy points out the differences between Organized and Unorganized Violence.

I think that, for the purposes of this thread, it is important to distinguish between organized violence versus unorganized/chaotic violence, since this issue tends to come up.

Many blacks and anti-racists, when presented with high black violent crime rates, will point to the millions slaughtered by Europeans during colonialism, WWI and WWII, genocides, etc.

However, just because a group is violent on a state/macro level doesn’t mean that its individual members are more violent.

A great example that I will use is Imperial Japan.

Imperial Japan slaughtered millions, forcefully “recruited”/abducted thousands of women into sex slavery, sadistically tortured many prisoners/victims, etc.

Black America, as a whole, throughout its history, has not killed anywhere near as many people as Imperial Japan did, and its body count is much lower.

But honestly, all of that considered, who would you feel safer living with? The citizens of Imperial Japan, or people in an average black neighborhood?

Organized violence is horrible, don’t get me wrong. But as far as your everyday life is concerned, you’re more worried about getting accosted, harassed, or menaced on BART by some black guy in Oakland than you are some evil war mongering white politician.

(and yes, anticipating a potential response from Tulio 😉 , I know that there are nasty football hooligans in Europe, violent skinheads in Russia, and other groups of whites who are dangerous on a micro level)

He is right, of course, and I am very tired of this argument.

If you go move into an all-White neighborhood, you are surrounded by a race that genocided the American Indians, enslaved the Blacks, killed millions in colonialism and starts and started wars all over the world. Whites have committed and commit a ton of Organized Violence.

But the crime in that all-White town is likely to be low to nil. So for you, the person living in that town, all that matters in Unorganized Violence, the kind you are likely to deal with very quickly when you leave that White town to move to the Black city across the state.

If you move to Japan or Germany, you are living among a race or ethnicity that committed one of the worst genocides in history. Yet modern day Japanese and Germans commit very little crime, especially violent crime. You quite safe living among them. Living among modern day Japs and Germans, the Rape of Nanking and the Holocaust is little more than a historical matter and of no consequence to you in the present moment at all.

I would like to point out that races and ethnic groups that commit lots of Unorganized Violence are also capable of committing tons of Organized Violence too once they get their hands on some modern weaponry.

More advanced races commit little Unorganized Violence because they create stable, low crime societies, but are capable of tons of Organized Violence due to feelings of superiority, contempt for those seen as lower than them, and the fact that the very advanced state that enables such civilized living also enables superior war-fighting capacity and weapons building.

In other words, advanced societies are advanced all around. They create more civilized living conditions, but when it comes to warfare, their advanced nature also shows through as they fight better and make better weapons than less advanced groups.

In a societal sense, Unorganized Violence is worse. Societies with high levels of Unorganized Violence are so chaotic and crazy that stable and normal civilization barely gets off the ground before it’s grounded by the chaos-causing crime wave. In short, you can’t have a decent society when you have tons of street crime.

On the other hand, more advanced groups with little Unorganized Violence that are capable of Organized Violence have long periods of stability at least on the home front. This is interspersed by warfare that kills a lot of folks, but that’s over soon enough, and things are back being nice and tidy at home once again.

But as groups that commit Unorganized Violence move into the modern era, their capability for mass murder grows. In 100 days, 1 million Tutsis were murdered in Rwanda. They were killed at a rate 2-3 times higher than Germans killed Jews in the Holocaust.


Filed under Blacks, Crime, Europeans, History, Race Relations, Race/Ethnicity, Social Problems, Sociology, War, Whites

49 responses to “Organized Versus Unorganized Violence

  1. Bay Area Guy

    Unfortunately for the U.S, it has an abundance of both organized and unorganized violence. Something it shares with Russia, I might add. Both places have always been rife with organized violence, but over the past several decades, unorganized violence has been on the rise, whether it’s ghettos/thuggery in the U.S, or violent neo-nazis beating up “blacks” in Russia.

    Oh how the two superpowers have fallen since the 1960s…

    • Tulio

      “…but over the past several decades, unorganized violence has been on the rise…”

      That’s not true. America is a fairly safe country. Even large cities like NYC and L.A. are pretty safe these days. Crime has been dropping steadily since its peak in the late 80s-early 90s. We have certain hot spots like the projects that are easily avoided. But we aren’t Mexico either where the cops are in fear of the drug cartels.

      • Bay Area Guy

        Well, I guess I should have clarified.

        Safe relative to the 80s and 90s, when violent crime was especially bad. But certainly not safe relative to the early 60s and before.

        Also, while correlation doesn’t equal causation, an unfortunate fact is that the reduction of the crime rate has coincided with mass incarceration, which brings many problems of its own.

        And yes, we are certainly not like Mexico, for which I am eternally grateful. But if our open borders friends had their way, we soon would be…

        • Tulio

          I don’t think the complete answer is higher incarceration. That’s part of it certainly, but sociologists and criminologists have been debating this topic for awhile and there’s no clear consensus as to why crime has been falling. It’s especially a conundrum given that it’s been happening during a bad economy.

  2. Pepperoncini

    I would also include White collar crime into the mix. I heard the following comment years ago and completely agree with it ” You can steal more money with a briefcase than with a gun” .

    White collar criminals steal far more money than a Mestizo or Black burglar but the White collar criminals does it subtely and is schwred enough to utilize the system.

    Also, one can call the US government organised crime because the government uses the military and diplomatic muscle to instal and or support dictators in foreign lands so that Americans or their allies can secure and control resources. Iran during the reign of the Shah is a perfect example.

    • Dota

      “”” You can steal more money with a briefcase than with a gun”

      A lawyer can steal more with a briefcase than with a gun. Don Corleone reacting to Tom Hagen’s decision to go to law school from Puzo’s Godfather. I know that book inside out 😀

  3. I have no conclusive studies to support that, but I think violent behaviour is a function of intelligence and necessity. People of high intellectual acumen are able to achieve their agenda with far less violence than people of low intellect, under equal circumstances. It is a lot like cursing. A witless person uses a lot of swearwords when he means to insult someone while a person of wit insults in a very ubiquitious and artistic way, with far greater effect on his ‘victim’.
    @ Bay Area Guy
    North America is actually a couple of centuries ahead of Russia, as far as rule of the law and street violence is considered. Russia is a law enforcement nightmare, even for Slavic people. As my former English Captain used to say, “Russia is an Uganda with rockets”.

    • Pepperoncini

      On a group dynamic basis, the people who don’t need to resort to street level violent behaviour are standing on the shoulders of people who resorted to violent behaviour.

    • Steve

      Crime in all white towns in England is not low to nil. Some places are like that but there are white housing estates I wouldn’t like to walk through on my own in England. There are some pretty rough white places where teenagers are getting guns. In Stuttgart, Germany, though, I was assured by a local that I could walk through the big park in the centre of town at 4am on my own with all my luggage.

      Also, they used machetes in the Rwanda genocide, and they must have had sharp pointy things in pre-colonial Africa.

    • Bay Area Guy

      While on the one hand, you have to admire the grit, toughness, and resolve of ethnic Russians (they were a superpower and empire not too long ago), I would hate to live in Russia.

      Well, except with regards to the women/romance situation, since Russia is the opposite of China, where there’s a large surplus of women.

    • Steve

      It is estimated that in the year 2000, 50% of Russia’s economy was linked to organised crime. lol impressive!

  4. Alpha Unit

    Blacks and anti-racists understand very well the difference between organized and unorganized violence. What many of us object to are two implications or ideas: that the only violence that really counts is Black violence, and that the only real explanation for Black violence is being Black.

    • Steve

      One can see from a closer consideration of homicide statistics that there are huge differences in homicide rates in different black countries. This immediately tells you of the importance of circumstances.

      For example,

      Cote d’Ivoire 56.9

      Sierra Leone 14.9

      Senegal 8.7

      Aguilla 6.8 (13,000 population with 1 recorded murder in the whole country in 2008)

      Sao Tome and Principe 1.9 (3 murders in a country of 163,000 people in a year).

      Obviously blacks are not compelled by their genetics to be violent in all circumstances!

      People will counter argue that blacks are stupid and cannot generally create developed societies where there is a low murder rate, except on small tropical islands that have a lot of tourism. As far as I have been able to work out, there are very good reasons to doubt that.

    • Aaron

      Male violence isn’t the only violence that counts, but given the disparities, people reasonably tend to focus on it. Similarly with black violence.

      Only a fool would say that the only explanation for male violence is being male, but only a fool would deny that maleness had something to do with it. Similarly with black violence.

      • Alpha Unit

        The imputed disparities are what’s at issue, as far as Blacks and anti-racists are concerned.

      • Steve

        its not quite as obvious as you are making out with black violence. When there are a few white countries with murder rates twice as high as several black countries and 7 times higher than one black country, its really not blatantly obvious that racial disparities in violence are strongly genetic. Not to me anyway. Maybe I am a fool.

        • Steve

          and consider that if you get stabbed or shot in Russia or Estonia, you have a much better chance of surviving than you do in most African countries because of superior medical treatment. If Russia had the medical care of an African country, its murder rate could be quite a bit higher.

        • Steve

          …its an open question and an environmental and cultural explanation cannot be ruled out at this time.

  5. Steve

    This is an interesting distinction. I’ve got a question: is gang violence organised? The Yakuza? The Italian American Mafia? Black drug gangs?

    Drug gangs can be remarkably well organised. Some of them are modeled on corporations, with a well defined hierarchy and wage structure, and a board at the top. Some have even been known to book keep. A lot of the murders that happened in the 80’s in ghettos, during the height of the crack boom, were connected to drug selling activities. Different gangs were at war with each other. The lower ranks were killing each other in remarkable numbers.

    Is this organised violence? Its not totally arbitrary. Its not two random people getting into an argument and one pulling a gun. Or a random mugger. That’s another thing: also think of all the street crime that happened because people were desperate for drug money at that time, apart form the gang violence.

  6. John R.

    Robert, you are on the cusp of something that I feel is essential when it comes to meaningfully distinguishing the behavior of various races. And that is the inevitable truth that the West and the East are militarized, culturally speaking. And this militarization is not the product of biology so much, though there are no doubt biological feedbacks, as it is the product of cultural selection and propagation. Thomas Sowell (Uncle Thomas to many of you) advances a very compelling argument in “Race and Culture” that Western Civ was the product of long cultural accretion and competition within the context of the easy communication of the Eurasian plain and its associated waterways. The Chinese, Koreans, Mongols, and Japanese, half a world a way, are an example of an eastern theater of this dynamic, but — it is important to keep this in mind — one that was neither completely discontinuous, nor out of reach in terms of cultural transmission back and forth.

    Even confining ourselves to the mere implements of warfare rather than the surrounding cultural norms that allow the most warfighting cohesion and power, you can see that gunpowder was invented in China and perfected in Europe, then reintroduced to the east. This kind of cross and re-cross pollination allowed the most militarily effective cultural practices to both triumph outright and perhaps more importantly be emulated by others that encountered them. For is it ever not the case that a large number of groups that are sorting through equivalent problems while sharing ideas with one another will not come up with better overall solutions and approaches to the problem than a single isolated group? So, without digging into particular sociocultural practices and their selection, is it a coincidence that the most traditionally formidable military powers are also the most socially cohesive? Cohesion is the essence of an army.

    Where was sub-Saharan Africa in all of this? Sowell makes the telling argument that it was a cultural backwater, cut off by the Sahara, divided by unnavigable rivers and broken and rugged terrain. Quite clearly the military process that began in the Near East could never take root there, because the early stages of agglomeration could not survive the terrain. This is why, for instance, there are 510 living languages in Nigeria. As any linguist will tell you, this many living languages gives evidence of the kind of geographic isolation and cultural discontinuity that most westerners cannot even imagine.

  7. Aaron

    J. P. Rushton discussed the distinction between organized and unorganized violence in Race, Evolution, and Behavior.

  8. Tulio

    Scotland is pretty ghetto. And it’s 98% white. Probably worse than Russia.

    • Tulio

      Now everyone who thinks white are inherently less violent and can’t act like “niggers” needs to watch that video above. Whites when put in the same situations as blacks will behave no different than your urban black thugs in America.

    • Steve

      nah its not worse than Russia. There are really bad areas, but overall its nowhere near Russia.

      In 2008-2009 there were 99 homicides, in a population of 5 million. There are 50 100,000’s in 5 million, so divide 99 (say 100) by 50 and you get 2 murders per 100,000 in 2008. That’s low by world standards and less than a fifth the Russian rate.

      Ten years ago, Russia had one of the highest homicide rates in the world but its back down to quite moderate levels now.

      • Steve

        Obviously there are other kinds of violence but I assume that homicide rates are a good measure of how violent a society is. The again, I think there is quite a lot of violent crime in Britain but not a very high murder rate, so maybe it is time for me to look at other forms of violent crime.

        • Tulio

          In Scotland, knives and machetes are the weapons of choice. They don’t have the access to guns that we have in the U.S. Otherwise the murder rate would be a lot higher. I’d love to see what the attempted murder rate(which would take into account all stabbings) of Scotland is versus the actual murder rate.

      • Steve

        The murder rate of Glasgow was over 5 per 100,000 (2008 or 2009). In 2009 it was the most violent city in western Europe. Glasgow is pretty ghetto. But it still hasn’t got much on the worst American cities.

        • Pepperoncini

          But how much of that is Old Firm rivalry.

        • Steve

          Good question Pepperonicini. I don’t know.

        • Tulio

          It’s also important to note the circumstances that are causing these problems in Glasgow. You have disenfranchised young men with high unemployment and inferior education living in concentrated poverty(their equivalent of U.S. housing projects). Throw in a dash of machismo culture and you there you go. The black violence in the U.S. is caused by the same factors. I’d be interested in knowing what the out of wedlock birthrate is for the Scotland ghettos.

  9. Hacienda

    Consider the possibility that it is impossible for a black man or woman in the USA to commit a crime.

  10. Good point. Organized violence often achieves results. Disorganized violence is like having the flu; it just drags everything down to a lower level.

  11. Steve

    Yeah, since a lot of unorganized violence is actually quite organised, I think the distinction should be between political violence (of all kinds) and violent crime. Its a great distinction though, and I knew exactly what you meant, or what BAG meant.

    • Steve

      and of course Europeans have proven themselves about as capable of political violence as you can imagine. And for all the virtues and safety of NE Asian societies, they have also had a great tendency to political violence and proven themselves capable of extreme political violence.

      And Robert is right that there has been a lot of political violence in Africa, as well as violent crime. The continent has been ravaged by civil wars, with some genocides. In fact,civil war is one of the significant factors in Africa’s underdevelopment.

  12. James Schipper

    Dear BAG

    Instead of organized violence versus unorganized violence, it would have been more accurate to speak of collective violence directed against outsiders versus individual violence directed against insiders.

    As to a surplus of Russian women, that only exist for the age of 45 and up. On average, Russian men die much younger than women. The difference between male and female life expectancy in Russia is about 12 years, the highest in the world.

    In most countries, there is a slight surplus of males till about the age of 45 because more male babies are born. After 45, females start to outnumber men. Needless to say, this doesn’t apply to countries like India and China, where there is selective abortion of female fetuses.

    Regards. James

  13. Any Given Hot Chick

    I think Robert Lindsay is real sexy. I want to sleep with him so bad.

  14. Organized or not, Violence is destructive.

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