Osama bin Laden Killed in Pakistan

Early today, May 2, at 2 AM, US forces attacked a huge residence housing Osama bin Laden, killing him and four others. The common wisdom in recent years has been that bin Laden was dead, but I never thought he was.

The raid took place in Abbottabad, Pakistan, which is north of Islamabad in Pakistani Kashmir. It is a resort town, beautiful, forested, surrounded by mountains. It is also a Pakistani military garrison town. There are a number of bases there, and bin Laden’s home was only 100 yards away from the Pakistani military academy.

The home was eight times larger than other homes in the area. It had a 18 foot wall in front, topped by barbed wire. The third floor had an 8 foot privacy wall. Few windows faced outside. Entrance was controlled by two stainless steel gates. A number of buildings were on the huge, multimillion dollar residence. The home had no phone lines or internet attached to it, which seemed odd for such an expensive home.

Last August, US officials became aware of the residence by tracking an Al Qaeda courier who Al Qaeda detainees had told US officials was one of the few Al Qaeda couriers that bin Laden completely trusted. They were told that bin Laden may even be living with this man. His movements were tracked. It was learned that he, along with his brother, had bought the huge mansion in Abbottabad.

Then officials began looking seriously at the estate. The security seemed to very excessive. The lack of phone and internet lines seemed strange for such a huge estate. The residents were burning their trash instead of leaving it out for pickup like everyone else did. There was another family living there, and when officials learned of their ages and gender, it seemed about who they thought would be living with bin Laden, including a son and his youngest wife.

After some time, officials finally concluded that the heavily guarded home cut off from the outside world could only be housing Osama bin Laden.

An operation was authorized by President Obama and was carried out at 2 AM. A team of 25-30 Navy SEALS and a small number of CIA operatives conducted the raid in four helicopters. One helicopter crashed during the operation. A 40 minute firefight ensued which set most of the estate on fire. Bin Laden was killed by a shot to the eye. His son was also killed, as was a woman. The two brothers were also killed.

The US has been in possession of bin Laden’s body, and they identified him by DNA. He has now been given an Islamic burial at sea. Officials feared that burying him in the ground would create a shrine for militants to pay homage to.

The Taliban, for some reason, has denied that bin Laden is dead. Hamas praised bin Laden as a holy warrior and a martyr and condemned the US for killing him. The PLO praised the US for killing him and said it boded well for peace.

It’s clear to me that bin Laden was living under the protection of the Pakistani military and the ISI, the Pakistani intelligence service. He had to be, sequestered in that garrison town like that right next to a military academy. Pakistan’s been hiding him for years now, all the while taking our “catch bin Laden” money.

Crowds of White Americans crowded the White House lawn chanting, “USA! USA!” Republicans were silent. The political implications remain to be seen. It was right to kill bin Laden, but anymore I do not like any US military victories in general, especially in the War on Terror. Any US military victory anymore just makes the US public go more and more rightwing. All it does is feed the Right.

It doesn’t seem possible anymore that the Left can gain any ground out of any US military victory anywhere. This is unlike the old days, when a leftwing president, FDR, was cheered on in WW2, the liberal Kennedy was cheered for his military adventures, and the liberal LBJ was cheered for invading Vietnam.

Since all US military victories anymore just feed the Right, why should I support the US military? I don’t support them.

What about patriotism? If jumping up and down and yelling, “USA! USA!” could feed progressive change in the US, I would do it in a NY minute. But it doesn’t. Probably 100% of those characters chanting on the lawn are voting Republican. Every time you see idiots waving flags and chanting, “Go USA!” it’s always a bunch of radical rightwing Americans.

So American patriotism or jingoism anymore is just a stupid rightwing movement. There’s nothing for us here. The more people wave flags and chant, “Go USA!” the more they vote Republican. Well screw that. If that’s the way it’s going to be, then I’m simply not an American patriot.

The US military anymore is a hard rightwing institution. Your average serviceman is a rightwing fanatic. I told this to my father, and he got furious. He fought in WW2 alongside a lot of good American FDR liberals. He was outraged that the US military should become an arm of the Republican Party. My mother corrected him and said it’s been like this for 30-40 years now.

Will this operation help Obama? I’m not sure. Let’s look at the polls. I would never change my mind and support someone just because they led some successful military operation. I vote based on more important bread and butter issues. It’s hard for me to imagine how retarded you would have to be to vote for someone merely because he led some successful military operation. How did bin Laden effect my life? Now he’s dead. How is my life going to change for the better? Bin Laden had no effect on my life in any way whatsoever.

Since all military victories anymore just feed the Right and hurt the Left, I can’t see Obama mileage out of this. When it comes to foreign wars, the Democrats can’t win for losing. No matter what they do, they always get no credit for it, because the Democrats are always the party of the anti-military French surrender monkeys. The Republicans, no matter what, always get huge boosts in the polls with everything they do militarily. They can’t go wrong.

The Republicans won’t give Obama any slack over this. I’m not so stupid as to think there is anything special about Obama getting bin Laden. Did Obama run the CIA team who figured out where bin Laden was holed up? Did Obama commandeer the operation to kill him? Bush was trying just as hard as Obama to get this guy. Bush could have easily killed him, and then his popularity would have shot to 90%. Obama just lucked out.

But Republicans are all pricks. If Bush had gotten bin Laden, we would have never heard the end of it. Bush is the greatest president ever for killing bin Laden! Now that Obama did it, Republicans will just bitch and moan and won’t give him an ounce of credit. That’s the way these weenies are.

It’s nice that he’s dead, but what’s it really going to change? Is Al Qaeda dead now? I don’t think so. Zawahiri is now in charge. Al Qaeda proper (the main organization) hasn’t been doing much harm lately anyway. Their branches in Iraq and Yemen are still quite active and deadly, and this won’t do anything to them.

I assume that even Al Qaeda proper will just carry on for years to come, but as I said, they are a small organization and haven’t done much in a long time anyway.

Now can we leave Afghanistan? Apparently not.

125 Comments

Filed under Asia, Conservatism, Democrats, Europeans, Islam, Liberalism, Obama, Pakistan, Political Science, Politics, Race/Ethnicity, Radical Islam, Regional, Religion, Republicans, South Asia, Terrorism, US Politics, US War in Afghanistan, War, Whites

125 responses to “Osama bin Laden Killed in Pakistan

  1. johnUK

    “Is Al Qaeda dead now? I don’t think so. Zawahiri is now in charge. Al Qaeda proper (the main organization) hasn’t been doing much harm lately anyway.”

    Al Qaeda is largely a myth which never consisted of more than 25-30 people which Bin Ladin would help finance different terrorist groups although and recruit militants from them.

    He was never a major financier of international terrorism and certainly did not run the camps in Afghanistan and had zero connection to the first WTC bombing.
    Only provable evidence of his terrorist attacks started in 1998 with the African embassy bombing with militants recruited from the main Chechen camp in Afghanistan.

    When US bombed Afghanistan that was the end of Bin Ladin and the fake Al Qaeda network.

    As for Zawahiri he is connected to the long established MI6 connected Muslim Brotherhood and his brother Muhammad al-Zawahiri was running the Albanian-Kosovo network which the KLA is a NATO terrorist army.

  2. Matt

    You’re saying what I’m thinking, man. Almost word for word.

  3. Pingback: President Obama executes Bin Ladin | International Times of Dominica

  4. Shawn

    The most plausable scenario was that OBL’s died in 2001 and his body was frozen at that time. An “living” OBL was a justification for the Neverendingwar. Now to score political points he was most likely unthawed and “killed.”

    • tulio

      Gimme a fucking break. If Bush had the body on ice in the midst of a tough re-election, he’d have come forward with it before the vote.

      • johnUK

        @tulio

        Actually we haven’t been given any evidence yet of a video or photos of his death except this fake Bin Ladin photo.

        How convenient that he is buried at sea so there is no change in the future to determine if he really was killed and how because y’know it’s not like he was workiing for the US up to 9/11 or that the US government would lie to us.

        • tulio

          Think through the logistics such a conspiracy would take to pull off and the risks if there was even one crack in the wall of secrecy.

          You would have to have hundreds of soldiers aboard the alleged ship he was thrown of to be sworn to secrecy and you’d have to somehow ensure that NONE of them leak the truth(in an era of wikileaks). In coming days we will discover who the SEAL was that put the bullet in Osama’s head. He will have to be in on the lie and never fuck up. You have the house that Osama was living in, even though it caught fire, there is still all sorts of forensic evidence in there. It shouldn’t be hard to prove whether Osama was living there or not. We killed one of his sons in the firefight. Unless we lied about that too and he was just a stunt double.

          If one person leaks the truth, and Obama was fabricating it all, at best it would be a scandal that makes that ensures a one-term presidency, and at worse an impeachable offense.

          I can always come up with a million reason why it “might” be lie, just like a good lawyer can come up with reasons why OJ Simpson might have been innocent, but that doesn’t mean both sides have equal legitimacy.

        • johnUK

          You would have to have hundreds of soldiers aboard the alleged ship

          Only a handful of senior personal on board ship would have known about Osama’s body and sea burial.

          And this argument of too many people involved to keep a conspiracy is rather lame as far larger conspiracies like Gladio and the secret funding of Afghan Islamic militants 6 months before the Soviet invasion were kept secret for years.

    • Cyrus

      Nah, he did die now.

      If Bush could have killed him on the way out, ensuring a Republican victory and his own good name, he would have in late 2008.

      My guess, the Pakistanis, or at least large elements within their most corrupt government on the planet, had him there. Maybe the U.S knew for a while, and just waited for an importune moment to nabe him. A year, six months? How knows?

      I can tell you this, though. The Pakistanis no longer had a use for him. After all, the U.S flew helicopters in and met zero resistance from the Pakistani military. None. So, they knew the U.S was going to do this, and did not stand in the way. Did not even attempt to warn him. Give him a 30 minute heads up.

  5. Excellent article, Robert. Sums up exactly how I feel.

    All those people(white people) jumping up and down waving flags…Kind of scary.

  6. johnUK

    This is interesting the 1983 Yugoslav transcript of the trial of the future leadership of Bosnia who tried to foment an Islamic uprising in Bosnia which details there connections to Iran and promoting radical Islamic movement in Bosnia during the 80’s which senior Iranian assistance.

    http://slobodan-milosevic.org/documents/izetbegovic83.pdf

    The accused Alija Izetbegovic would give sanctuary and citizenship to Bin Ladin and the leading 9/11 conspirator and Hasan Cengic who helped fund the 9/11 attacks.

    http://www.slobodan-milosevic.org/news/ftv-da050908.htm

  7. Ken Hoop

    http://www.frumforum.com/anti-war-gop-silent-on-bin-laden-death

    Israeli loyalists like Frum have seized on the opportunity to attack Ron Paul’s lack of trigger-happy enthusiasm.

    • johnUK

      Hilarious!

      It was the Neocons policy from the 80’s onwards that helped create and establish the so called Al Qaeda network and made 9/11 happen even negating the strong possibility that they had a hand in helping carry out the 9/11 attack given all the connections to Israel and the Mossad.

  8. Ken Hoop

    BTW, VDare has unleased a feature attacking Paul’s increasing wetback jobrobbing sympathetic sellout on immigration, in case race realists are interested. Sadly, some of the Vdare-approved hardliners are also war hawks. Hard to find the proper balance.

  9. johnUK

    I heard from reliable intelligence sources this is the new leader of Al Qaeda.

  10. tulio

    If people wanted to wave flags and chant USA, so be it. Why do we have to be so cynical about EVERYTHING? If Osama had attacked any other country’s citizens the way he did on 9/11, you’d see the same reaction anywhere in the world. Nobody expects the world to change overnight because his death. But what this does do is bring some closure to a painful chapter in American history and that catharsis is why people were celebrating. If someone killed one of your loved ones and got away with it, you’d be cathartic after hearing justice was finally served.

    • Wade in MO

      ” If someone killed one of your loved ones and got away with it, you’d be cathartic after hearing justice was finally served.”

      Yes, Tulio. Many muslims were cathartic on 9/11.

      “But what this does do is bring some closure to a painful chapter in American history and that catharsis is why people were celebrating”

      Hardly. This may give a second wind to the “War on Terror” nonsense.

      “Why do we have to be so cynical about EVERYTHING?”

      We’re not cynical about everything. Just anything involving US foreign policy.

      • tulio

        “Yes, Tulio. Many muslims were cathartic on 9/11.”

        Are you insinuating that those people in the twin towers deserved to die? Or that their deaths were in some way equivalent to the death of OBL??

        “Hardly. This may give a second wind to the “War on Terror” nonsense. ”

        I assume you didn’t lose any loves on 9/11. And what exactly is nonsense about fighting terrorism?

        • Cyrus

          He is not insinuating those people in the World Trade Center deserved to die. OBL didn’t just give them a death sentence. He killed thousands of American GI’s, killed a million Iraqis and god knows how many Afghans, and allowed George W. Bush to set in motion the slow economic death of the American empire. There would never have bee a Patriot Act without his effort.

          He set in motion the means of allowing progressive thought to be totally deluded from the American society…

          As for fighting terrorism. Any idiot can see what the U.S has utilized that excuse to do. After all, are you insinuating that because a bunch of Saudis attacked us on 9/11, that 1,000,000 Iraqis had to die, and have their country smashed? Are you insinuating a bunch of poor Afghans need be readily butchered indiscriminately by American air power, because of 9/11? They deserve to die?

          Sure, Americans have the right to be happy OBL is dead. The world does. Most especially people from Muslim lands. They suffered the most, both directly and indirectly, from North Africa to the Philippines.

          Yet, when I see the jubilation of the crowds, the almost totally white crowds, I cannot help but see an anger that transcends just the actions of OBL and Al Qeada. Something I saw long before 9/11. I’ll never forget seeing people, white people, wearing tee-shirts that stated “I fly 15,000 miles to smoke a camel” way back in 1991, during the build up to the first gulf war. At that point in history, where possibly could such hate have been derived from? My guess, it is inherent.

          Somebody’s gotta be the bad guy.

          Their collective hate is just as irrational to me, as a bunch of Pakistanis burning effigies of the statue of liberty in the streets of Rawalpindi.

        • Amy

          I remember that ugliness during the Gulf War–a lot of (white) people barking “kill ’em all–let God sort ’em out!”
          Celebrating anyone’s death is ugly–from the Palestinians handing out candy in the streets to the flag-waving we’ve seen since last night.

        • Wade in MO

          “Are you insinuating that those people in the twin towers deserved to die?”

          No Tulio, I’m insinuating that muslim terrorists are not the only ones who caused the deaths of innocent people and that, while killing inoocent people is bad, the american government is not innocent either.

          “I assume you didn’t lose any loves on 9/11.”

          Big fucking deal. I assume you didn’t have any loved ones harmed by Bin Laden and friends whom the US funded a mere three decades ago. I assume you didn’t have any friends who were harmed by the KLA or NATO bombings. I assume that you have never had a friend or relative killed by american supported Israel. I can play that game too.

          “And what exactly is nonsense about fighting terrorism?”

          Fighting terrorism is not the nonsense I was refering to. I was talking about the claim to fight terrorism while actually persuing other motives. Maybe next we can “fight crime” by keeping blacks isolated in their own areas and not letting them out.

          Americans seemed as if they were starting to get tired of the War on Terror. I wouldn’t be surprised this is used by some people (read neocons) to try and “show” that this “War on Terror” is something good and/or winnable. The best thing is that this happed with a democrat as president. If this happened with Bush as president I don’t even want to think of what Bill Krystol and the Fox News gang would be promoting. Of course I don’t trust the democrats with this either…

        • Cyrus

          The irony Amy, is that I was thinking of the first Gulf War, back in 1991…Don’t get me started on the crap back in 2003.

          It’s all the same dynamic, from rednecks flag-wavers to Palestinians handing out candy. Something tribal in the human psyche needs it. Some cultures seem to “let it out” more than others.

          Personally, I am very happy he is dead. He allowed the hell of the last ten years to come true. He was an evil man. An asshole. I doubt though, that the majority of my flag waving Americans see it quite the same way as I do.

        • Amy

          I meant the first Gulf War….first US conflict I observed as an adult. But yeah, more of the same shade of ugly.

        • johnUK

          @Cyrus

          It’s all the same dynamic, from rednecks flag-wavers to Palestinians handing out candy. Something tribal in the human psyche needs it.

          Nope it is just that they are booth anti-Christ and follow and support an anti-Christ ideology.

        • Wade in MO

          “I doubt though, that the majority of my flag waving Americans see it quite the same way as I do.”

          Most americans think that EVERYONE in the middle east (barring Israelis) is an islamic terrorist. They really don’t give a shit about unjustified violence or brutality or any sort of law. I;ve heard this sort of thing from a lot of people across the political spectrum.

          There are people who believe that Saddam Hussain was a hardcore islamist. The only thing they know about the Ba’ath party is that arabs don’t take them. More than once I’ve had to correct one of our middle east “experts” by telling them that turks don’t speak arabic during one of their “they’re all crazy arabs” rants. I don’t expect people to know all the details of everything, but if they’re going to try and justify killing millions of people I would expect them to know at least the basics.

        • Cyrus

          @Wade:

          They genuinely have no interest. Americans have been programmed to accept what ever the government says, especially in matters such as national security, war, the economy, etc.

          I should know. I just today had a guy tell me that another fellows daughter better watch out. She is dating a “Iranian” kid, and dammit, he heard in the news last years that some guy from over “there” cut off the head of his wife an burned down the house in an honor killing.

          Of course, the story involves an Pakistani born man who killed his wife, which is a problem with Pakistani immigrants, evidently. There has not been a single “honor killing” by and Iranian-American in the United States. Not saying they don’t have their own share of violence, but it is not “Islamic induced,” i.e I am killing you because you cheated on after ten years of marriage and I can’t handle it(happens to Americans every day, last I checked), as opposed to I am killing you because it says to do so in the Koran, and you are my property.

          Of course, that would be yet another major nuance for them to comprehend.

          The guy also thinks that offering the kid pork would some how make the kid go insane… 😀

        • Amy

          Wade–re: honor killings not necessarily specific to Muslims:

          http://egyptiansdefiant.blogspot.com/2011/04/condemning-christian-terrorism.html

          http://rssmasr.com/en/salafis-in-alexandria-protest-murder-of-convert-to-islam/

          Concerning an Egyptian woman who was the victim of an “honor killing” by her three Christian brothers, because she had converted to Islam & married a Muslim.

        • Amy

          Meant to say Cyrus.

        • Cyrus

          @Amy:

          Interesting Links.

          I know. It is in the worldview though of the average American, that such seeping notions are solidified, and with the deliberate attempt of the media, U.S government, some folks in academia, etc.

          http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phyllis_Chesler

          I am not saying the treatment of women in majority Islamic nations is on average anything like it is in the west. Only that it varies greatly, and such a notion is beyond the abilities of most here in the States.

          Unfortunate, Pakistan is the very living embodiment of many of these notions, along with Saudi Arabia, so it is what they get to see on Tv.

        • Wade in MO

          “They genuinely have no interest.”

          Yeah, until it coming to saying how we should kill them. I don’t know if a lot of americans attitudes come out of hate or condescention. It’s probably a mix of both.

          ” Americans have been programmed to accept what ever the government says, especially in matters such as national security, war, the economy, etc.”

          Yeah. It’s a funny thing that we hear about the free market and freedom of speech ginving us so much freedom of information, yet few seem to take advantage of that. Everything is a sterotype. They think everyone from Morocco to Indonesia is an Islamist. Most think the Russians are still communist. I’ve even heard people (not jokingly) say that Germans were still nazis.

          the only problem I have with criticism of the US is that people pretend that these are US only problems. I believe that, for the most part, people are dipshits everywhere. That’s one of the reasons I’m not quite as enthused about democracy as so many other americans.

        • Amy

          @Cyrus:
          Not a fan of Islam. But I got to know many Iranian immigrants when I lived in the Washington DC area–lots in common in terms of shared values, sense of humor, education, perspective on the world, etc., if that makes any sense. Not people I would even remotely peg as “honor-killing,” “crazy” folks.

          Maybe I’m hopelessly naive, but I don’t get the whole knee-jerk prejudicial hatred thing. Not sure what protected me from being infected with it, though. Plenty of bigots in my own family, too–prejudices against races and against religions alike.

          Agree w/ Wade: “people are dipshits everywhere.” Not everyone, but yeah, they are everywhere.

        • tulio

          ” After all, are you insinuating that because a bunch of Saudis attacked us on 9/11, that 1,000,000 Iraqis had to die, and have their country smashed? ”

          I didn’t say we needed to go into Iraq.

          “Are you insinuating a bunch of poor Afghans need be readily butchered indiscriminately by American air power, because of 9/11? They deserve to die?”

          Are you implying that we bomb Afghans indiscriminately? I’m fucking sick of you leftists always acting as if our military intentionally targets civilians when in comparison to any other damn country or war in history we go out of our way to avoid it. Now obviously in any war civilians are going to die. But you might as well have made the same gripe about innocent Germans dying in WWII.

          “Yet, when I see the jubilation of the crowds, the almost totally white crowds, I cannot help but see an anger that transcends just the actions of OBL and Al Qeada.”

          Whatever. Ask any Arab that lives in America if his life is better off in America or in the middle east. Even after 9/11, racist attacks on Arabs were extremely rare. Americans bent over backwards to say we are not at war with Islam or Arabs but with terrorists. Sure some genuine bigots are out there, but like I said life went on Arab Americans as normal. There were no pograms in the street.

          If people want to celebrate the death of Bin Laden, good. The world is better off with that asshole at the bottom of the ocean.

        • tulio

          “No Tulio, I’m insinuating that muslim terrorists are not the only ones who caused the deaths of innocent people and that, while killing inoocent people is bad, the american government is not innocent either.”

          Well if they have a problem with the American government, let them declare war and face off on the battlefield with our Marines. Since they want to become martyrs, our military can easily assist them with that. We don’t want to fight civilians. They do. That’s the difference between us and them. We would gladly have it out with them in the middle of the desert far from any civilians, but they hide behind civilians which they hope to use as human shields and then parade the dead bodies as propaganda.

          “Big fucking deal. I assume you didn’t have any loved ones harmed by Bin Laden and friends whom the US funded a mere three decades ago. I assume you didn’t have any friends who were harmed by the KLA or NATO bombings. I assume that you have never had a friend or relative killed by american supported Israel. I can play that game too.”

          Ah, the game of moral equivocation. Everybody is equally wrong, everyone is equally reasonable…Look, while Israels policies may be up for debate as well as the strength of their retaliations, it cannot be claimed that Israel initiates strikes without provocation. Put it this way, if Israel declared it would cease-fire, it would not stop Palestinian bombings, in all likelihood it would intensify. If Palestinians declared cease-fire, they’d never have to worry about an Israeli bullet again. Can you deny that?

          “Americans seemed as if they were starting to get tired of the War on Terror. I wouldn’t be surprised this is used by some people (read neocons) to try and “show” that this “War on Terror” is something good and/or winnable.”

          To me the War on Terror means being proactive against terrorist threats and making no distinction between terrorists that attack us and governments that openly harbor them such as Afghanistan. It also means surveillance and international cooperation of intelligence to monitor threats. If in the end it means I have to get patted down the 2 fucking times a year I go through an airport in order to stop some nut from walking on a plane with C4 down his shorts, then so be it. That’s the thing with cynics, if the government scans people and pats them down, it’s an intrusion of our liberties and it’s intolerable. Then if a Richard Reid takes down an aircraft the same folks with be saying, “all the taxes we pay and government can’t even stop a guy from walking onto a plane with explosives!” I’ve come to realize that no solution is ever good enough for cynical crowd.

          The best thing is that this happed with a democrat as president. If this happened with Bush as president I don’t even want to think of what Bill Krystol and the Fox News gang would be promoting. Of course I don’t trust the democrats with this either…

        • Wade in MO

          “Well if they have a problem with the American government, let them declare war and face off on the battlefield with our Marines. Since they want to become martyrs, our military can easily assist them with that. We don’t want to fight civilians. They do. That’s the difference between us and them. We would gladly have it out with them in the middle of the desert far from any civilians, but they hide behind civilians which they hope to use as human shields and then parade the dead bodies as propaganda.”

          How brave that americans with a massive military budget, the most up-to-date technology, and much larger forces to want to meet people on open terrain. Instead of bombing or hijackings the americans do ultra-brave things like drop laser guided bombs on people from tens of thousands of feet in the air. The fact is is that feignting and dodging and other sorts of tricks are what weaker opponents have used against much stronger ones throughout history because meeting a larger and more advnaced army on the battle field is suicide unless a major blunder is made. Maybe the best strategy for the US is just to stay out of other countries.

          “Ah, the game of moral equivocation. Everybody is equally wrong, everyone is equally reasonable…”

          Well, if there is someone more wrong here, then it is you and the US. The US had been fucking up the Middle East a long time before Bin Laden attacked. To my knowledge, the serbs had never done anything bad to the US, and in fact sided with us in two world wars. And the fact is that the US still funded Bin Laden and the Taliban to attack others (as well as Saddam).

          ” Put it this way, if Israel declared it would cease-fire, it would not stop Palestinian bombings, in all likelihood it would intensify.”

          There were peace accords that were agreed to in the 1990s but insane orthodox jews couldn’t handle that and decided to murder the prime minister.

          “If Palestinians declared cease-fire, they’d never have to worry about an Israeli bullet again. Can you deny that? ”

          I don’t know. Let me ask the local American Indian tribe.

          “To me the War on Terror means being proactive against terrorist threats ”
          “I didn’t say we needed to go into Iraq”

          So you support the Bush Doctrine but are against it’s implications?

        • Bay Area Guy

          @ Tulio

          Look, while Israels policies may be up for debate as well as the strength of their retaliations, it cannot be claimed that Israel initiates strikes without provocation. Put it this way, if Israel declared it would cease-fire, it would not stop Palestinian bombings, in all likelihood it would intensify. If Palestinians declared cease-fire, they’d never have to worry about an Israeli bullet again. Can you deny that?

          I definitely disagree with the far leftist interpretation of the Israel/Palestine conflict as “Jews bad, Arabs good.” The conflict has its fair share of Arab assholes and terrorists. Nobody is a saint or angel here.

          However, as someone who has studied the Israel/Palestine conflict, I don’t agree with your view that Israel would somehow be non-violent towards Palestinians if Hamas ceased to exist.

          Much of Israel’s views towards the Palestinians and Arabs in general comes from Ze’ev Jabotinsky’s (leader of right wing Zionist revisionists) “The Iron Wall.” In a nutshell, Jabotinsky argued (realistically, in contrast to the hypocritical, contradictory, and pious arguments of left wing labor Zionists), that Arabs would never willingly accept a Jewish state, and that the only way to create a secure Jewish state would be through constant vigilance, military strength, and demonstrations of prowess. By constantly putting your boot on their necks, you would eventually demoralize them and cause them to give up. Only AFTER they accepted a Jewish state would the pressure end.

          The idea of ethnic cleansing, or “transfer” was implicit in Zionism. After all, how can you create a majority Jewish and Democratic state UNLESS you find a way to get rid of the Arabs? Granted, this often didn’t involve mass murder or extermination. A lot of times, as in the case of Plan Dalet, it involved sending soldiers to surround Arab villagers, shoot in the air as a display of strength, in order to scare them away.

          Note, this “iron wall” way of thinking would come to be adopted by the GENERAL Israeli establishment, including left wing labor Zionists, not just the right wing revisionists and Likudniks.

          Following the 1948 war, Ben-Gurion frequently provoked incidents and used superior Israeli strength as a way to press his advantage, and in order to see what he could get away with.

          Also, you say that Palestinians frequently provoke attacks, and that Israel responds, and in many ways that is true. But you have to keep in mind that Israel isn’t exactly giving the Pali’s many options.

          They build Jewish only settlements, surrounded by walls and Jewish only roads in the West Bank, force them to endure checkpoints, and basically occupy them.

          In Gaza, for a long time, Jewish settlers, while comprising a small percentage of the population, possessed most of the fertile land. The settlements were withdrawn around 2005, but Israel followed that up with a severe embargo, basically turning Gaza into an open air prison. The severe poverty and unemployment, particularly among the young, gives people there few options.

          (now, I’m not completely sure as to whether or not Gaza would have been embargoed had it not been for the election of Hamas, and it was definitely a depressed area when it was controlled by Egypt, but that’s another topic)

          Let me put it in a way you can better understand it, Tulio. Let’s say that in apartheid South Africa, impoverished blacks living in overcrowded and filthy bantustans, with few options and a generally hopeless existence, decided to launch rockets at wealthy white communities, and the apartheid government then proceeded to launch retaliatory raids into black neighborhoods, killing thousands. Nobody would think to say that “if blacks just accepted a white state and stopped being aggressive, they wouldn’t bear the brunt of white aggression again,” in light of the fact that the only reason for the aggression in the first place was the brutal conditions they were placed in.

          Yes, I recognize that many “pass raids” in bantustans and other manifestations of apartheid were unprovoked, and that apartheid South Africa and Israel are different countries with different circumstances. You could also say that black leaders like Nelson Mandela and other black leaders more constructively responded by using relatively non-violent resistance, while Arab radicals like Hamas launch rockets.

          But many serious scholars and analysts of the conflict, as well as Desmond Tutu, somebody who would know about apartheid, have described the situation as one of apartheid. If you think about it, Pass Laws are not that radically different from permits required for checkpoints, and the Group Areas Act isn’t that different from Jewish only settlements.

          All I’m saying is that I don’t think the conflict would be resolved by Palestinians laying down their arms, especially in light of the increasing fanaticism of Israeli Likudnik politics (think Avigdor Lieberman). Israeli politicians and public figures can get away with a racial nationalism, patriotism, and xenophobia, that white Americans and Europeans would be slammed for if they ever tried to pull off something equivalent.

          Could you imagine David Duke or even Jared Taylor becoming a Deputy Prime Minister (not that this country has such a position), much less president? Hell no.

          But that’s what you have in Israel with the Likudniks.

          Anyway, that’s my two cents. I’m not trying to be self-righteous, Tulio. It’s just that having studied the conflict, I don’t think highly of Israel’s supposed “peacefulness.”

        • tulio

          “All I’m saying is that I don’t think the conflict would be resolved by Palestinians laying down their arms, especially in light of the increasing fanaticism of Israeli Likudnik politics (think Avigdor Lieberman).”

          I never said anything about the conflict being *resolved* by Palestinians laying down arms. The violence is only one aspect of the conflict. What I’m saying is that Israeli incursion is reactive. There would be no more armed conflict in Israel and the OTs if the Palestinian terrorists called a cease fire.

          I find it interesting you bring up S. Africa. You don’t need to go that far. Just look at your own country a generation ago. Where would we be right now if instead of a non-violent movement, the black panthers modeled themselves after Hamas and set off car bombs at malls in white neighborhoods?

      • Cyrus

        I think Al Qeada is a dying cause, and has been for sometime. They will find little support outside of Saudi Arabia and Pakistan….Namely Pakistan, at this point.

        As for Muslims be cathartic…Guess it depends on which ones. You had animals celebrating in joy in Pakistan, and people in the streets holding candlelight vigils for the dead in Tehran.

    • Cyrus

      Sure, why not.

      Of course then, when Afghans are Iraqis riot and protest against Americans, you would say the same? That they have a right to be angry? That they lost and are losing “loved ones” by people who are getting away with it?

      • tulio

        If they want to celebrate the death of George W. Bush, that’s their right to do so. But once again, I don’t come from the premise of equivocation because I’d have to believe that Bush’s aim was to kill Iraqi and Afghan civilians.

  11. “Bin Laden had no effect on my life in any way whatsoever”
    I’d argue that he’s responsible for the Government’s post 9/11 attack on American’s civil liberties. But if it wasn’t him, no doubt someone else would’ve conveniently played the part of the next Hitler?

    • nikita this is off topic so forgive me but I saw on your profile that you’re from Australia.

      You have a name that is common amongst African-American women. I’ve come across a number of Australian women with the name “Keisha” as well which is another popular African-American name.

      Why is the name Keisha popular in Australia or New Zealand?

      • Wade in MO

        “You have a name that is common amongst African-American women”

        Blacks have taken many names from people they have considered friendly to them in the past. Most of these seem to be french, russian, or arabic. Of course, they get many Anglos-Saxon and Celtic names from their white “neighbors”. Biblical names seem common too. (Which is also true of anglos and celts.)

        For example:
        Tatiana – russian
        monique, marcel – french
        jamal – arabic
        tyrone – celtic (Tyrone is celtic…LOL!!!)

        I waiting to hear about someday about Sven Washington.

      • “You have a name that is common amongst African-American women. I’ve come across a number of Australian women with the name “Keisha” as well which is another popular African-American name”
        I’ve never really thought about it actually, but like most things in Australia, it probably derives from Britain or the USA. Nobody wants to give their kids traditional names anymore (with the exception of Greeks and Italians), no John or George, instead we have alot more Ambers and Bambis……sigh….

        • Wade in MO

          “instead we have alot more Ambers and Bambis……sigh….”

          Amber and Bambi (along with Crystal) are names that white people who live in traler parks give their kids. Amber is the white equivalent of LaShonda.

          Then there are the “den” names popular among more suburban/yuppie types: Aiden, Braden, Jaden, etc. I don’t know if they have black equivalents. I would guess that slightly less ghetto black names would suffice.

        • Yea I’ve come across a few Austrillian models with the name “Bambi”. People are funny you know.

    • You’re right, but is this going to end it? Hell, now they will probably double down and pass and Patriot Act on Steroids. That’s the way US militarists are their yahoo goon supporters. Nothing ever stops them. Victories simply embolden them for more. Actually, one thing stops them. Defeats. As in Vietnam.

  12. on topic: I wonder if Osama bin Laden was a real person or a shadow used to hide some shady bussiness.

    • Cyrs

      Probably both. A mix of the two, at different times. One way or another, it was both an asset and a liability to different governments at different times.

    • Wade in MO

      Couldn’t he be both?

    • johnUK

      @chic noir

      The entire concept of Bin Ladin and Al Qaeda is completely fake.
      They are essentially a US mercenary force with most terrorist’s links to private US and British security firms like MPRI.

      Mohammed Atta contacts while in the US included US military base and private defence establishment firms.

      Just look at where jihadists and “Al Qaeda” have been most active in oil and energy rich resource areas that benefit the US lead NWO.

      There was a Newsweek article a couple of years ago that admitted the Al Qaeda was just a handful of people about 25-30 at most and amongst them only Bin Ladin Zawahiri and a few others agreed on a new strategy in 98 to directly attack the US.

      You could stop international terrorism in about 3 months by just shutting down the long established NGO’s, banks and front charities that finance it most of whom are still based and operating in the US, Mid East and Europe.

  13. nazbol

    Can you imagine how better off the world would be had that cunt Gorbachev never assumed power and some hard-ass Russian nationalist took over the USSR and kept it alive after 1991?

  14. Dota

    @ Tulio

    “That’s the difference between us and them. We would gladly have it out with them in the middle of the desert far from any civilians, but they hide behind civilians which they hope to use as human shields and then parade the dead bodies as propaganda.”

    Complete rubbish. The talibs have been known to ambush US army supply lines and co-ordinate their attacks through tunnels, away from civilian settlements. Hizbollah does the same as their families reside in south lebanon and they don’t want to put them at risk. The Talibs have also attacked US army bases which is remarkable given how weak they are in comparison to the US army (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/asia/afghanistan/8130902/Afghanistan-Taliban-attack-Jalalabad-air-base.html)

    “”If Palestinians declared cease-fire, they’d never have to worry about an Israeli bullet again. Can you deny that? “””

    I can actually. The first intifada in the 80s was met with severe violence from the Israelis. There were no suicide bombings back then. And besides, the Israelis use several methods to provoke the palestinians. They kidnap children and torture them, this is documented. They humiliate and physically abuse Arabs at checkpoints. They harvest organs of the Palestinians whom they kill, this was extensively documented on Proffessor Prytulak’s website (Ukranian Archive) before the Canadian Jewish Congress had the Canadian govt shut the website down (freedom of speech my ass). These things never make it into your media.

    • tulio

      “Complete rubbish. The talibs have been known to ambush US army supply lines and co-ordinate their attacks through tunnels, away from civilian settlements. Hizbollah does the same as their families reside in south lebanon and they don’t want to put them at risk. The Talibs have also attacked US army bases which is remarkable given how weak they are in comparison to the US army”

      Hey, I can respect that. Whenever there is a war, I would rather it be militant versus militant fighting outside of the cities and away from civilians.

  15. Dota

    And to add insult to injury, look at what they have done to the website: http://www.ukar.org/

    • Wade in MO

      Thanks for telling us about him Dota. I saw his site. What they did was disgusting. However, the honorable doctor;s work has not dissapeated totally. This site also has documentation of organ harvesting:

      http://www.voicesofpalestine.org/outrageous/organtraffic.asp

      • Amy

        Re: the organ traffic website.
        Christ on a bike! I had no idea. This bit is particularly disturbing:
        “Many non-Haredi rabbis allow an organ of a non-Jew to be transplanted into a body of a Jew in order to save the life of the Jew. They, however, oppose the transplant of an organ from a Jew into the body of a non-Jew….’If every single cell in a Jewish body entails divinity, and is thus part of God, then every strand of DNA is a part of God. Therefore, something is special about Jewish DNA.’ Rabbi Ginsburgh drew two conclusions from this statement: ‘If a Jew needs a liver, can he take the liver of an innocent non-Jew to save him? The Torah would probably permit that. Jewish life has an infinite value. There is something more holy and unique about Jewish life than about non-Jewish life.'”
        I even found a similar opinion expressed on this website:
        http://www.mail-archive.com/daf-discuss@shemayisrael.co.il/msg01860.html

        • LOL, well, as far as religions go, Judaism definitely sucks all right. It’s one of the worst ones out there. But most Jews don’t think like this. Where you get a lot of Jews thinking like this is with the Orthodox and in places like Israel, which has been a petri dish for this type thinking from Day One.

        • Amy

          Didn’t mean to imply that I believe most Jews think like this.
          I know/have known Reform & Conservative Jews. Never have gotten to know any Orthodox Jews–they don’t seem to get out much!

        • LaFleur

          Wow. Good find.

          All agree that a gentile idol-worshipper who denies the existence of Hashem has a far paler color in his blood. His life is not viewed with great enthusiasm.

          However, the blood of a Nochri who keeps the seven Noahide Mitzvos is of a far more ruddy hue. According to the Meiri, his blood is as red as that of any observant Jew. Rashi and the Rambam however appear to consider the Chibas Nafsho Shel Yisrael to infuse an additional degree of redness to the hue of the
          blood. (It is understandable that the blood of the chosen nation who have suffered so many trials and tribulations should gain some deeper redness l’Ma’an Nikmas Dam Avadecha ha’Shafuch!)

          I think they just put something extra in the Kosher Slurpee machines.

        • Amy

          The funny thing is, I was looking for the opposite sort of quote. I think there’s a verse from the Talmud or Commentaries or something (I’m not Jewish, but I am a big nerd), or maybe an old traditional Jewish saying, about how one man’s blood is as red as another’s; something like that, that implies that all people are of equal worth. I never found the original quote–I was a bit flummoxed when I tried to Google it and stumbled on this thing!

  16. Aaron

    Tulio is right. Bin Laden killed 3,000 of our countrymen, so let’s celebrate his death. There’s plenty of time to go back to being our usual cynical asshole selves afterwards. There’s nothing necessarily ugly about celebrating the death of an enemy. That doesn’t mean I’m endorsing the particular aesthetic choices of many of our demonstrators, but going out on the streets to party – go for it! I think it would have been a nice gesture if they’d celebrated by handing out sweets instead of chanting sports cheers, but their intentions are right and I’m with them.

    If you’re a Christian, fine, I can understand why you believe it’s wrong to celebrate any death, and I respect it. But there are few if any Christians around here, so y’all have got no excuse for not finding flags to wrap yourselves in and shouting “USA! USA!”. Bin Laden has been killed, couldn’t have happened to a nicer guy.

    • Wade in MO

      “There’s nothing necessarily ugly about celebrating the death of an enemy. ”

      The Holocaust always gives me giggles. Some call it the LOLocaust.

      • Aaron

        Same here. For some reason, goyim seem to believe that Jews don’t joke about the Holocaust. I guess that’s the impression you’d get from professional Jews like Abraham Foxman and Alan Dershowitz. Some Jews don’t, but generally speaking no one enjoys a good Holocaust joke as much as a Jew. And that’s Jews joking about their own deaths. You can imagine how it would be over the death of their enemy.

        Osama bin Laden is dead. Celebrate!

    • Why should I celebrate. Sure, the guy deserved to be killed, but what good is going to come of this? It’s just going to invigorate the US rightwing, right? It’s only going to invigorate US militarism, right? It’s only going to feed and perpetuate the War on Terror BS, right?

      Give me a reason to celebrate.

      • tulio

        What good does executing a serial killer do? For starters it brings closure to the families of those he killed. Not sure if you believe in capital punishment, but I do.

        • Matt

          I think capital punishment needs to be available. Somehow Europe and the rest of the developed world gets by without it, but we sure as hell ain’t Europe.

      • Aaron

        You should celebrate because (1) this guy killed 3,000 of our countrymen and (2) because your fears of those bad results are unfounded. This isn’t going to have much effect on the “war on terror” one way or the other. That’s one thing people on both sides seem to agree on. It will be forgotten in a few weeks.

        If anything, it will help the “left” (i.e., the Democrats) because it will show that they’re “tough on terrorism” or whatever. That will give them more flexibility to withdraw from Iraq and Afghanistan, which I still think is what most of them want and is also what’s good for America. But really, even that’s negligible. The war will mostly go on as before, no better, no worse. So, you can celebrate the killing of this gentlemen with a clear conscience.

        • johnUK

          @Aaron

          Americans are to stupid and chicken shit to challenge US authority and admit that the US government killed 3,000 of its own citizens on 9/11.

          The official 9/11 fable is an absolute joke on virtually every level.

    • johnUK

      @Aaron

      Tulio is right. Bin Laden killed 3,000 of our countrymen, so let’s celebrate his death.

      Really then maybe you should tell the FBI the evidence you have then because they do not charge him with the 9/11 attacks just the African embassy bombings.

      9/11 was clearly a false flag terrorist attack conducted by elements inside the US government and aided by at least one foreign intelligence agency.

      Israels hands are all over 9/11 and the only one to really benefit from it.

  17. Wade in MO

    “Hey, Wad, is it ok for me to bring up the Jews yet?”

    Well, nothing can bring up the jews, but you can mention them now.

  18. I agree with Wade. This is only going to give the War on Terror idiots a shot in the arm .Hilary just said that the wars will go on, and probably be ramped up now. Americans are sick people. They don’t know when to quit. Victories like this just give US militarism as shot in the arm and make them want to attack more places, fight more wars, waste more on defense, etc.

    • Wade in MO

      Robert, what do you think of this:

      • tulio

        I find his claim that “American Imperialism” has killed 27 million to be highly dubious.

        2 wars, 10 years and 1.1 trillion was not about killing one person. Nobody is naive enough to think that the final objective of these wars were to get Bin Laden. It was an aim, but it was bigger than Bin Laden.

        • What *was* the final objective of these wars, tulio? While we are at it.

        • tulio

          Well, first off, I’m not defending our going into Iraq as it had nothing to with 9/11. As for Afghanistan, the goal was to destroy Al Queda bases, kill the heads of Al Queda, and oust the Taliban from power.

      • tulio

        I’ve also never heard that the Taliban warned us that Bin Laden was about to strike. I’d like to see a citation.

        • johnUK

          @tulio

          I forgot about the Taliban working with Us against Bin Ladin prior to 9/11 it was one of the main news topics for a when it was revealed either in 2009/10 which RT covered.

          If I find the video I will post it.

        • tulio

          Please do. I searched for more info last night and couldn’t find it. I can’t imagine why the Taliban would warn us about Bin Laden since the Taliban were close allies of Bin Laden and anti-American. Why would they want to help us with anything?

        • johnUK

          @tulio

          Found the video Tulio.

          “Evidence now available from various sources, including recently declassified US State Department documents, shows that the Taliban regime led by Mullah Mohammad Omar imposed strict isolation on Osama bin Laden after 1998 to prevent him from carrying out any plots against the United States. It also bolsters the credibility of Taliban statements in recent months asserting that it has no interest in Al Qaeda’s global jihadist aims.”

          Here is another video in February of 2001 of a reporter at the Whitehouse briefing asking about an offer made to extradite Bin Ladin to Saudi Arabia.

          It is important to point out that it was not the US and western intelligence that supported and helped create the anti-Taliban Northern Alliance by Russia because the Taliban puppet regime was running Chechen terrorists camps as was the only state to recognise Chechnya as an independent country.

          Tulio have you seen the BBC documentary The Power of Nightmares part 3 which explains and debunks the Bin Ladin myth?

        • tulio

          The first video was interesting, but only suggested that the Taliban was not as close to OBL as we may have thought. I don’t see anything he said that demonstrates that the Taliban warned us about 9/11.

          I do know that when the U.S. demanded they hand him over, they said that OBL is their “guest”.

          As for the second video, The Taliban said they would hand him over to Saudi Arabia instead of us because their term was that he be tried under Sharia law. There is no way in hell that any sitting US president is going to allow Saudi Arabia to decide in an Islamic court at that, OBL’s guilt or innocence. And suppose some mullah judge decided he’s innocent. Then what? He gets to walk scott free?

        • johnUK

          @tulio

          They didn’t warn the US about 9/11 probably because they did not know about it being a suicide attack but a traditional airline hijacking and landing of airplanes not targeted at the US but Russia, a staged political stunt, but it does show they were opposed to Bin Ladins aims and were actively working against his terrorist aims targeted towards the US.

          http://www.historycommons.org/context.jsp?item=a00chechenosama#a00chechenosama

          Up until about August of 2000 the Taliban regime was negotiating an oil pipeline deal between the US, Pakistan, Saudi Arabia and Turkmenistan to create an oil pipeline that travels from Turkmenistan through Afghanistan.

          The second video said nothing about a sharia court just that he would be extradited to Saudi Arabia due to the fact he is a Saudi national which Saudi Arabia is a long standing intermediary between the CIA, Islamic militant groups and Pakistan which the Taliban are a creation of.

          Watch this it explains the creation of the Bin Ladin myth.

  19. Movenon

    So some people are claiming that it was a body double who got killed and not the real bin Laden… is there any way to know?

    http://www.independent.co.uk/opinion/commentators/fisk/robert-fisk-was-he-betrayed-of-course-pakistan-knew-bin-ladens-hiding-place-all-along-2278028.html

      • johnUK

        Yes, we tested DNA.

        Says the US the constant liar dumped the body in the ocean so we can’t confirm an independent DNA test.

        The US has cried wolf to many times to believe on face value what they tell us.

        It was bad enough when they showed us the Jewish Kid Adam Gadahn as Al Qaeda spokesman who his grandfather who he lived with was a board member of the ADL a notorious Israel intelligence connected organization now this.

  20. Cyrus

    Tulio Wrote:

    Are you implying that we bomb Afghans indiscriminately? I’m fucking sick of you leftists always acting as if our military intentionally targets civilians when in comparison to any other damn country or war in history we go out of our way to avoid it.

    Wow, didn’t realize Tulio was a right-wing asshole! Why do all these freaks insist on posting on leftist blogs and news sources? Shouldn’t he be over at Free Republic, cruising for child-porn or something?

    • Wade in MO

      “Wow, didn’t realize Tulio was a right-wing asshole!”

      Tulio = Alan Keyes

      More likely, Tulio is defending “a brutha”. I knew that all these blacks who bitched about Bush would have loved him if he were black. Now Bushi is black and they love him. Many blacks probably think Obama tracked down and shot Bin Laden himself.

      • Bay Area Guy

        More likely, Tulio is defending “a brutha”. I knew that all these blacks who bitched about Bush would have loved him if he were black.

        I don’t want to make a personal attack on Tulio’s character.

        But I do agree with the second part of that statement. Contrary to Tim Wise’s assertion that blacks opposed the second war in Iraq out of greater morality or lack of “privilege,” it was more of an anti-dubya war than anything else.

        Now that a brutha is leading the wars, it seems that most blacks couldn’t care less. As certain black analysts have pointed out, and as Stephen Sniegoski has pointed out, it seems that the anti-war movement has died down ever since Obama came into office.

        As a cynical article in counterpunch noted, perhaps getting a Republican elected would be a good thing, if for no other reason than to get liberals to actually be opposed to American wars of aggression again.

        Tulio seems to be representative of many urban liberals (regardless of race) in general. They don’t lose much sleep over U.S. wars or neoliberal economic policies, but say something offensive about blacks or gay people, and they’re ready for war.

        • Bay Area Guy

          Now, in fairness to Tulio, I don’t think that he necessarily advocates aggressive U.S. policies.

          I think he (my interpretation of his perspective) gets annoyed with the tendency of certain leftists to act as if the U.S. is some uniquely immoral entity, or the tendency of certain people to assign heavy moral blame to U.S. war actions, when the U.S. is just doing what every other country does.

          I don’t believe that Wade and Cyrus are doing that, or that they see the U.S. as uniquely evil (Not that Wade is a “leftist” anyway. Well, at least not in cultural terms, which is how most people in the left are today. Wade is certainly progressive economically).

          You should see what they have to say about Arabs, Turks, or others.

        • Bay Area Guy

          Tulio = Alan Keyes

          I don’t know about that.

          He reminds me a lot of Harry Alford, the black Republican head of the National Black Chamber of Commerce. He’s either neoliberal or borderline conservative on many issues (although, to my approval, he’s anti illegal immigration), but when it comes to black people, he’s a feisty racial leftist, just like Alford is.

          In fairness, Tulio is pretty reasonable for your average black racial leftist, and I agree with some of his views.

          But I can’t help but see the resemblance.

        • Tulio is not even a liberal. I think he’s one of those Centrist things.

        • They don’t lose much sleep over U.S. wars or neoliberal economic policies, but say something offensive about blacks or gay people, and they’re ready for war.

          This much is about right. As I understand, Tulio has money. I’m not sure if he’s upper middle class, but he’s basically a Black buppie. I don’t know anyone who travels overseas twice a year. Hell, I don’t know anyone who travels overseas period! A relative did at one time, but he’s upper middle class. He was. Now he’s broke. tulio is what a lot of younger Blacks nowadays turn into once they get some cash. I’ve seen a lot of it.

        • tulio

          “Now, in fairness to Tulio, I don’t think that he necessarily advocates aggressive U.S. policies.

          I think he (my interpretation of his perspective) gets annoyed with the tendency of certain leftists to act as if the U.S. is some uniquely immoral entity, or the tendency of certain people to assign heavy moral blame to U.S. war actions, when the U.S. is just doing what every other country does. ”

          ^^^This.

        • tulio

          @Robert

          No, I don’t travel twice a year! I wish! Not abroad anyway. I usually go visit my parents during the holidays down south, but I don’t really consider spending the holidays with my family to be “traveling” but just family obligation. I haven’t left the country in 2 years. I’ve done some traveling, more than the average American, but probably not as much as you think.

        • tulio

          “Now, in fairness to Tulio, I don’t think that he necessarily advocates aggressive U.S. policies.

          I think he (my interpretation of his perspective) gets annoyed with the tendency of certain leftists to act as if the U.S. is some uniquely immoral entity, or the tendency of certain people to assign heavy moral blame to U.S. war actions, when the U.S. is just doing what every other country does. ”

          Also, to add…I get sick of the left making it a thing of shame to be American. It’s similar to how you got tired of the left associating whiteness with all things bad in the world, so you now feel better just openly embracing it and giving the finger to those that tell you otherwise. I guess that’s sort of the way I feel about America. I don’t claim we are perfect, but I don’t think we are uniquely bad and we’ve also done a lot of good and have many things to be proud of. Yet any form of American patriotism is shot down as self-indulgent fascism, while Mexicans can wave flags on Cinco de Mayo and revel in Mexican nationalism and that’s just wonderful and nobody ridicules them for being flag-waving Mexican nationalists. Yes, I have left wing buddies that foam at the mouth when they see Americans waving flags, but think Mexicans waving flags is diversity that should be embraced. And this guy is white, btw in case you’re wondering.

          I’ve listened to Chomsky and Zinn, I’m not oblivious to geo-politics or selfish American interventions abroad and encourage Americans to listen to different perspectives and be aware of global opinions. I also think America deserves to be celebrated as any other country does. We shouldn’t steep ourselves in self-hate and perpetual guilt. We have corruption, but we’re far from Nigeria. We have inequality, but more social mobility than most places. We have racism, but we ain’t no Russia. For an “empire” we’re probably about the most benign empire that has ever existed. I’m neither an American sycophant or iconoclast, I try to steer between extremes and take a larger perspective.

        • Bay Area Guy

          Also, to add…I get sick of the left making it a thing of shame to be American. It’s similar to how you got tired of the left associating whiteness with all things bad in the world, so you now feel better just openly embracing it and giving the finger to those that tell you otherwise. I guess that’s sort of the way I feel about America. I don’t claim we are perfect, but I don’t think we are uniquely bad and we’ve also done a lot of good and have many things to be proud of. Yet any form of American patriotism is shot down as self-indulgent fascism, while Mexicans can wave flags on Cinco de Mayo and revel in Mexican nationalism and that’s just wonderful and nobody ridicules them for being flag-waving Mexican nationalists. Yes, I have left wing buddies that foam at the mouth when they see Americans waving flags, but think Mexicans waving flags is diversity that should be embraced. And this guy is white, btw in case you’re wondering.

          Yeah, that basically sums up the left when it comes to American patriotism.

          They act as if there’s something disgusting or backward about American flags. This incessant drive to pathologize U.S. patriotism drives lots of people (mainly white people) away from the left.

          I can’t think of any non-Western country that pathologizes its own patriotism and questions its own legitimacy as much as the U.S. left does.

        • johnUK

          @Bay Area Guy

          The left is more fascist than the right wing supporting US foreign wars under Soros direction just under the bogus pretext of “humanitarian intervention” and US backed Islamic separatist/terrorist regimes.

        • FG

          Unfortunately the US has become so huge, diverse, unequal, and disconnected from its historical roots that I can see little basis for patriotic fervor.

      • Uncle Milton

        To Wade:
        More likely, Tulio is defending “a brutha”. I knew that all these blacks who bitched about Bush would have loved him if he were black

        I get the sense that Tulio or several of his family members were in the military more than he is defending a “brutha” as you say.

      • tulio

        Can we leave my skin color the fuck out of this discussion? We spend plenty of time discussing race on this blog. In this thread however, it’s rather unnecessary. Thank you.

    • Dota

      I don’t mind right wingers posting here. I’d be bored posting in a blog where evrybody agreed with me. Besides, in a fair fight its rather easy pwning right wingers.

  21. Wade in MO

    Great video of veteran journalist Robert Fisk on Bin Laden:

  22. nazbol

    @BAG
    American and Western “liberals” suck major ass. Comrade Stalin would be pretty disgusted to see what’s considered “left-wing” nowadays.

  23. Uncle Milton

    To Rob:

    . I don’t know anyone who travels overseas twice a year. Hell, I don’t know anyone who travels overseas period!

    Throughout much of the 90s when the dollar was strong and multiple places had really weak currencies it was possible to travel and have lodging for less than $10 a day. I spent two months in Thailand and two months in Europe (crashed with friends..) when I was employed as a bike messenger. Compare that to horrible vacations at Disney World, Disney Land, or Las Vegas.

    All sorts of people I knew were getting gigs teaching English etc in Asia at that time. Their incomes and economic backgrounds for the most part were relatively modest.

    Looking at my parents my dad was a college prof and was out of the country often for months almost every year from 1958 to just a few years. In the late 70s and early 80s after my mother (a single mother then..) landed a job at the post office (and became a union steward..) she would take a two week vacation every year and most of the time it was overseas albeit to cheaper countries. Mexico, Guatemala…. in Europe Greece, Portugal, and Spain before they joined the EU. (and became much more expensive..) The tradeoffs were modest houses and used (but functional and reliable) cars, selective food purchases, rarely updated her wardrobe or spending tons on money at the hairdresser.

    That said as the US dollar weakens and the rest of world’s income rises those situations are not nearly so easy as they once were. (especially not for Europe..) I am glad I traveled when I could.

  24. What I’m saying is that Israeli incursion is reactive. There would be no more armed conflict in Israel and the OTs if the Palestinian terrorists called a cease fire.

    Not really, the Israelis have a huge list a mile long of all of the “terrorists” that they need to arrest. Supposedly some of them have committed crimes, like attacks on Israelis. Others are simply members of armed groups. Apparently it’s illegal to be a member of an armed group. Even when Pallies call a cease-fire, these raids continue anyway. Further, Israel keeps stealing Pallie land and building settlements! Fuck that. That’s aggression right there, to the max. Pallies have a right to respond to Israel continuing to steal their land and build settlements with armed force = guns and bombs.

  25. Where would we be right now if instead of a non-violent movement, the black panthers modeled themselves after Hamas and set off car bombs at malls in white neighborhoods?

    When was the last time that Hamas set off a bomb inside Israel? Hardly ever happens anymore. Were White Americans stealing Black land, forcing Blacks onto bantustans, and building Whites only settlements on their land? No. The US is not the proper analogy. The proper analogy to Palestine is South Africa. And in South Africa, the Blacks responded with guns and bombs, properly so.

  26. tulio

    I was amused to get called a right wing asshole in this thread. I decided to take my political compass score and this is the result:

    http://www.politicalcompass.org/printablegraph?ec=-3.38&soc=-2.15

  27. johnUK

    Bin Ladin wasn’t killed in Pakistan he is working as a Columbian security guard.

  28. Arif

    If president of Pakistan have said that he is died i never would have believed, but now obama is saying so, it must be 100% truth :))) so osama is dead and world should be happy now.

  29. Amy

    http://wakidsulaimansh.blogspot.com/
    “Murder in Pakistan”
    An essay by a blogger in Indonesia who leans toward seeing Osama bin Laden’s killing as a murder (but is reserving judgement until the helmet-cam recordings can be seen).
    He does raise some good points.

    Also enjoyed this tidbit:
    “But the sort of grotesque gloating that was shown on American television reminded me of the ‘Ding Dong the Witch is Dead’ scene in The Wizard of Oz.”

  30. should bring its troops home from Iraq and Afghanistan now that Osama bin Laden has been killed. Paul a long-time skeptic of American interventionism said that like all other Americans Im glad hes gone but raised multiple questions about the costs associated with the 10-year manhunt for the al Qaeda leader behind the 9 11 attacks. ……………………….. ……………….. If we got him I guess its time to come home as far as Im concerned he said during an interview with Fox Business network.Unlike other GOP presidential hopefuls Paul waited until Tuesday to offer his official response to bin Ladens slaying which took place on Sunday.

  31. I cannot comprehend that persons in The eu, the hurting of bin Laden thought of as critical. There is criticism that bin Laden received no trial and that the USA invaded a foreign destination. I’m sure the U.S. had every right to perform this procedure. Who, if not the U.S.? I’m from Germany I’m so content as the Americans about this campaign. Well done!

Leave a Reply

Fill in your details below or click an icon to log in:

WordPress.com Logo

You are commenting using your WordPress.com account. Log Out / Change )

Twitter picture

You are commenting using your Twitter account. Log Out / Change )

Facebook photo

You are commenting using your Facebook account. Log Out / Change )

Google+ photo

You are commenting using your Google+ account. Log Out / Change )

Connecting to %s