Why the Rig Vedas Cannot Overlap with the Indus Valley Civilization

This is one of the classic Hindutva claims of course. But it can’t possibly be true.

See new commenter Rupert from India for more:

1. The Aryan invasion (in India) also suggests that Aryans might have migrated to India from northwest.  This doesn’t mean nobody was there at the time of migration. So can be called as a invasion.

2: There is  strong evidence in the Rigveda for a migration from the northwest. The geographical information given in the Rigveda changes from the beginning of the book to the end in a sequence supporting a migration from the northwest.

3. The migration derived from the Rigveda cannot be dated back before Indus Valley civilization. Because then it should be dated before 7000 BC.  The language spoken by the present people there is a Indo-Aryan (Sanskrit) derived language. So if it is dated back before 7000 BC, the period of Sanskrit derived language speaking people would be from 7000 BC until present. But the Indus people (7000 BC- 1300 BC) spoke a language which is still hardly known.

This suggests there would not be any time overlap. Carbon dating calculations proves the Indus Valley period. So the mistake could only be about the date of the migration. It cannot be dated back before the Indus Valley civilization. From that it is confirmed that the Rigveda occurs after the Indus Valley Civilization.

4. Indus valley civilization itself encompassed the entire Bronze age (3300 – 1300 BC).  If the migration happened after the Indus valley civilization as mentioned in point 3, the Rigveda can not be dated back before 1300 BC.

5. There is some evidence which suggests the IVC period and the Rigveda cannot be overlapped.

  • There is no reference in Rigveda to the big cities or important places of the IVC.
  • There is no evidence in Rigveda about the Indus peoples’ architectural skills.
  • There is no evidence in Rigveda about the tubed drainages found in the Indus valley.
  • There is no evidence in Rigveda about water reservoirs or ponds found in Indus valley.
  • There is no evidence in Rigveda about water urn burials found in Indus valley.

6. The Rigveda people might not have even known about the IVC as the civilization was destroyed without a trace. This suggest the migration  happened long after the IVC.

7. The Rigvedic people might not have even known about cotton. This could have happened if they had an alternate source.

The “no cotton in the Rig Vedas” line is used by Hindutvas to say that the Rig Vedas must predate the IVC considerably, as we know the date cotton was introduced into the region.

The language of the IVC is generally thought to be something along the lines of proto-Dravidian, which may have a deep time depth along the lines of ~9000 years.

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299 Comments

Filed under Agricutlure, Antiquity, Asia, History, India, Indic, Indo-Iranian, Indo-Irano-Armenian, Indo-Irano-Armeno-Hellenic, Language Families, Linguistics, Literature, Regional, Sanskrit, South Asia

299 responses to “Why the Rig Vedas Cannot Overlap with the Indus Valley Civilization

  1. humayun

    Indus civilization is connected with melukkic wich is an indo-european tongue as well that did left many cultural words on the later coming aryan.
    What happens is similar to slavic replacing ilyrian in the balkans.

  2. Anthropologist

    The Aryan invasion is a myth, created by the Eurocentric-Far right. Common concensus now amongst world wide anthropolgists are that it never happened. The Indus Valley Civilization was created by brown people, by native Indians, and India was a thriving civilization until its decline in the early 1800’s and colonization.

    • That the Aryan migration occurred is supported by 100% of academics who work in that area, I can assure you. It’s not doubted by a single soul, except some anti-scientific Indians and some cranks.

      • Anthropologist

        So I was lied to by some nationalist Indian?? Lol……………..Well, so the Aryans invaded the Indus Valley Civilization, and had babies with native Indians?? Which brings us to todays Indians??

      • guest

        Actually U appear to be half learned and crank – Lindsay

      • Believe me Robert, we knows it better than European anthropologists where we come from.

        “The postulation of PIE together with a speci c homeland in Europe or Turkey does violence to facts. There is no evidence that the natives of India for the past 8,000 years or so have looked any di fferent from what they look now. The internal evidence of this literature points to events that are as early as 7000 years ago (Kramrisch, 1981) and its geography is squarely in the Indian region. If there was no single PIE, there was no single homeland either. The postulation of an \original home”, without anchoring it to a de finite time-period is to fall in the same logical trap as in the search for invasions and immigration. Tree or animal name evidence cannot fix a homeland. In a web of languages, di fferent geographical areas will indicate tree or animal names that are speci fic to these areas. When the European side of the IE languages are examined, the tree or animal names will favour those found in its climate and when the Indian side of the languages are examined, the reference now will be to its flora and fauna.”

        http://aryabhoomi.wordpress.com/2012/01/12/pieprototype-indo-european-language-reflection-of-western-desperation/

        • Look, now we know you are a Hindutvadi. The notion of an Indian homeland for PIE and the Out of India Theory for IE is almost universally rejected nearly all true linguistic scholars. The only people who believe this insanity are INDIANS and their lackeys and hangers-on. The world scholarly consensus universally rejects the Indians’ pet nutty theory. There is also no support for indigenous Aryans in India. A journal recently devoted an issue to the theory, but they had to suspend peer review in order to publish the fringe scholar who promoted it because otherwise it never would have passed peer review.

          One of my friends is a top Indo-Europeanist and China scholar. He utterly rejects the OIT, as do all true scholars.

          That the vast majority of Indian intellectuals continue to believe the most sorry, pitiful and unscientific tripe is sad, and it’s a sorrowful testimony to the utter lack of intellectual culture on the Sub-con. Next to US Blacks, India must have the most retarded intellectuals on Earth.

        • WOW !

          You really don’t agree to anything other than what you believe. Your choice. But that is not going to change the history. What happened has happened.

          Not next to US Blacks but we have the worst intellectuals. But then you never seems to appreciate anyone from any part of the world. 🙂

          Why is that you call everyone from India Hindutva-Vadi ? Do you think this should be seen as something despicable? I don’t mind that word really because its not bad at all. 🙂

          I am sure you must be meeting some really bad Hindus who made a bad impression of Hindus or Hindutva.

          We HindutvaVadi have even statute of Jesus in some of our temples. We believe in- VASUDHAIV KUTUMBAKAM means whole world is family.

        • Dota

          Believe me Robert, we knows it better than European anthropologists where we come from.

          No we don’t Mohit bhai. It was the West that gifted us our history. They were the ones that told us about Samrat Ashok by decoding the text on his pillars by identifying vowels. Our superior Brahmins ignored the pillars for 2000 years because they were too busy aligning horoscopes, burning widows, and playing middle man for god(s).

          Aakar Patel said it best: “Between 1879 and 1894, Max Muller translated the entire Upanishad, Vedas and Dhammapada. This helped Vivekanand go lecture the Americans on India’s greatness at Chicago in 1893.”

        • KAMALAKAR

          Robert, u seem to be a perfect racist on this blog spot. This is not a place for u. please leave

        • Somebody

          Are you sure ?

          In the 1990s, a new wave of scientific evidence, coming partly from satellite photos,
          geological study, archeological digs, and other anthropological finds began to seriously
          discredit the old myth.
          Archeologists at Harvard, Oxford, and other top universities
          in the US and Europe are now widely agreed that there was no invasion of India from
          outside that displaced the peoples of the Saraswati and Iudus river valleys.
          MAX MULLER (The creator of Aryan invasion Theory ) had admitted in his last book ” 60 systems of Indian philosophy” that whatever be the date of vedic hymns fifteen hundred BC or Fifteen thousand BC,they have their own Unique place in the literature of the world.

          IMPORTANT :–

          Professor Schaffer at Case Western University writes in “Migration, Philology and
          South Asian Archaeology” that there was an indigenous development of civilization in
          India going back to at least 6000 BC. He proposes that the Harappan or Indus Valley
          urban culture (2600-1900 BC) centered around the Saraswati river described in the Rig
          Veda and states that the Indus Valley culture came to an end, not because of outside
          invaders, but due to environmental changes, most important of which was the drying up
          of the Saraswati river.

          Anthropologist Brian Hemphill of Vanderbilt University has been studying the human
          remains of the northern Indian subcontinent for years. He states categorically that his
          analysis shows no indication of population replacement or large-scale migration.

          Archeological evidence simply does not support the thesis of an outside invasion.Kenoyer argues, “it’s likely that the rivers dried up and shifted their courses, altering
          trade routes and undermining the economy.” Kenoyer holds that the Indus valley script
          can be traced to at least 3,300 BC—making it as old or older than the oldest Sumerian
          written records.

          The Indus valley was destroyed due to the environmental climatic changes and not due to the invasion.

          You guys only want to take credit of everything just pathetic Thomas Edison , who took out more patents for the Phonograph that the actual number of parts it contains — out of which 6 are for — hold your breath — the wooden cabinet!!

        • Everyone you just listed no doubt agrees with the Aryan Migration theory.

    • Wade in MO

      “The Indus Valley Civilization was created by brown people, by native Indians”

      The Indus Valley Civilization predates the proposed date of Aryan Migration. Does anyone one actually say that the Harappans spoke sanskrit or any indo-aryan language? This is a useless comment.

      • R D

        Robert Lindsay… do you continue to support the ARYAN INVASION theory or you have now moved to the ARYAN MIGRATION theory? If I am not mistaken, scholars from the west first propounded the invasion theory… that apparently fell flat because they could find no evidence of invasion. As a consequence the western scholars had to readjust – didn’t they? Can you point out how long the INVASION THEORY lasted? If I am not mistaken – for a very long time. After all – it had to fit in with a western centric world view. By this time the Westerners had appropriated both the Egyptian and Sumerian civilizations for themselves. At that time, people with a contrarian view point were called loonies as well.

        People in India have known for a long time the invasion theory was wrong – in pretty much the same way the Mahabharata was handed over from generation to generation.

        I do not believe there is a cogent set of proofs for either argument to be settled comprehensively.

        To argue otherwise would be to act like a nutcase.

        • Gunzo Gunzo

          Hi Folks, the Rig Veda says a few things: I can quote the verses but I do not have time. It says that there were wars or at fights between Rig Vedic Sanskritans and the local Dasus. It also states Indira, a Sanskritan, destroyed the forts of Dasus. (This means that Dasus had forts and obviously this means cities and culture). Also Rig Veda says that the color of the opponents of Sanskritans was darker. Also it says that the Dasus “held” the water which means they lived upland and had dams and did not give water to the Sanskritans. So, we can attribute forts, dark color to the locals. We can attribute white color and horses to Aryans (Sanskritans). Hence Rig Veda unequivocally says that Sanskitans invaded the locals and defeated them. What part of this is contradicting the AIT? Why is it so painful for you to accept this? After all, the it is admitted by all that the Sanskritans were the victors! Fact is even today, Brahmins are whiter and non Brahmins are darker. And Rig Vedic and later texts in and out says that caste system was fully and brutally enforced and hence the color was reasonably maintained. Let me audaciously say that you the Sanskritan people are genetically same as the modern day Muslims whom you seem to hate and you came from Afghanistan, further up from Central Asia. There is no explanation as to why the color, the language of the Aryans is so much similar to Germans, English and the muslim invaders while the language, color are so different in South India in particular and India in general. AIT theory is correct. (Well strikingly, the Sanskritans did the same thing as the modern day muslim invaders and looted the gold of the locals, imposed their will and enslaved the masses! Only thing is the Sanskritans did this better than the Muslims! You are one and the same).

        • R D

          @Gunzo Gunzo.. the AIT theory is bogus for the simple reason there is no – absolutely no – archaeological proof that any of the cities of the IVC were invaded. IVC died out because of the lack of water that came about because of climate change. IVC as exclusive of a civilization along the Saraswati river turned out to be bogus as well. First they claimed the Saraswati is a mythical river – never existed. Then that claim turned out to be bogus as well when satellite sensing data proved it otherwise. Then archaelogical remnants along the supposedly mythical Sarasvati started coming out one after another. It is also proven that while cities perished, agricultural outposts survived and diversified out of that area. No – all this does not prove the existence of a Hindu civilization in 5000 BC. But to claim that the AIT theory propounded by western indologists has been proven so is not just a bit rich – it is thievery.

    • I can not see why anyone would connect the Aryan Invasion Theory to the ‘far right’ (by which you probably mean the radical center, since there are no influential monarchists in Europe). Yes, Europeans are related to Aryans, but only very distantly, and the fact that Europeans and Aryans are known to produce blondes is probably a general feature of central Asian PIE races.

      A European ‘rightist’ would gain no advantage by promoting an Aryan Invasion Theory, which is, at worst, a projection of known history (i.e., Huns, Mongols, Turks) into a pre-historic past. Central Asians CONSTANTLY invade the Aryan and Indic lands, why would it be any different in the past? Other than Hindu-wankers and their Creationist fairy tales.

      • R D

        @PaulusMagus – Hindu-wankers do not have “Creationist” fairy tales. That is reserved for the white Christians taking their Bible as is and accepting that as ridiculous truth. Frankly when the white people were learning to climb trees Hindus were trying to figure out the solar system. You are plain ignorant.
        A history of Western indology will let you know why white European Indologists would make that connection. Hitler – a product of the white Christian west laid European claim to the Aryan race. Before him and after and especially during the colonial times, the foundations of this spurious ideology of White superiority was based on such ridiculous claims.

  3. Anthropologist

    well I found this website-http://www.freewebs.com/a1sap/ancientancestors.htm

    Oh and it is common concensus that the Aryan invasion theory was a divide and conquer plot to divide the indian people, and was created by the West, which was at the time, indulging in racial supremacist ideas lol. And there is no proof of it and that its just a theory.

  4. ee

    the Dravidians were found at the time of the Indus civilization to areas on the southern part of the Indian sub continent. The fact is is that none really knows who the ancient Indus people were.

  5. Roxana

    Caste system in India is good evidence of invasion on Indus Valley people.

    • Aryan from Indus

      Really?? Like shudras are indus valley people anmd brahmins are aryan people. For your kind info. it was not IVC but indus-sarasvati civilization, the divine river of Rigvedas. Jaisalmer has plenty of sites belonging to IVC and also the dried up Sarasvati.

  6. Aryan of Indus basin

    really?? Like if Shudras are from IVC and Brahmins where did you get that analogy?? IVC in itself talks of priest-kings. Go and check it. The same as Vashista , Kashyapa Vishwamitra. Moreover it is also proved that it was not Indus valley Civvilization but rather Indus-Saraswati civilization. Infact there are more sites discovered near the dried up Saraswati basin, i.e the region today of Jaisalmer, the divine river of Rigvedas. IVC are Rigvedic people or the “Aryans”

    • Those are all lies, sorry. All that nonsense about the Sarasvati, bla bla. I have taken all of that apart on this site.

      • R D

        Really Robert Lindsay… have you checked last how many of the so called IVC sites were along the “supposedly” mythical Saraswati river? And then did you find out whether they have come up with proof that the Saraswati river did indeed exist?

        You have spent so much time writing your blog – but then you ought to be able to ascertain what are known facts pretty quickly.

        • This debate ended a long time ago here in the West. It is a pity that we have to waste so much time writing up papers to counter this crap argument of anti-Scientific Hindus.

          No one disputes this stuff except Hindu flat Earthers. Especially in academia, the Aryan theory is universally accepted. It is proven 100% fact on linguistic grounds.

          We are really getting tired of Hindu pseudoscience.

        • kamalkar

          it did not end pig it was supposedly made to be ended because as more and more evidences were emerging that your race emerged from us you guys were quick to debunk those theories without even proper research cos you were afraid of our brilliance and made an ass out of yourself truly.
          See this link you racist dog Robert Lindsay
          http://www.interferencetheory.com/Blog/files/2691225db60e86d49d9f7002324629e8-111.html
          Are you still going to debunk the OIT theory… Assoles like you wont believe our superiority where in you tongue your white british masters and try to please them.. This OIT theory is proven 100%%% aright and been accepted uniersally by all cholars the fact many races were from india needs to be accepted wetern racist minds do not accept and spread BS about aryan invasion migration and other BS
          Ah you talk about linguistic evidence ., even the linuistic evidence point out india was the homeland of all languages if you want the evidence please refer this link

          The white lies are over more and more people are aware of the white british and american lies of claiming all history as theirs. Accept the reality and live with it.

      • Vikram

        Yes all facts which will contradict Aryan Invasion theory will look as lie to you. But ever thought when these Aryans came from Europe to enlighten India and created and practiced purest language as Sanskrit, reached the zenith of religion, philosophy and Yoga while in India, were living naked in Europe , primarily hunters & gatherers. Or you want to say that they came and conquered india and then most intelligent Aryans moving to India left bunch of morons back in Europe.

        • They never came from Europe. They came from the northeast more or less Central Asia, Kazakhstan and neighboring areas of Russia.

          Well not really, Greece and Rome had some pretty advanced civilizations, at least as good as the Indians if not better.

          The Aryans were not very advanced people. They only had horses and good weapons. The civilization they conquered in India was superior. The Aryans developed a much better civilization in India than they had in Central Asia.

        • Vikram

          Problem is with your understanding of advanced society , specially post Industrial revolution. Aryans were not advanced and even though they came up with a language more perfect than Greek and Latin. Apart from language superiority, so called Aryans religious superiority. Most of the Greek GODs have similar counterparts in Sanatam Dharma. (We dont call it Hindu, it is for you ignorant people). While in Asian minor where Aryans had so called Homeland , no such GODs remained, how come they reached Greece and Rome?

    • royal blood

      i am royal blood, and i totally agreed with lindsay.he is cent percent correct that the ARYANS were invaders.actually the meaning of aryan is “pure or noble”. i don’t know why the scientist call them aryan , they were just invader.(because in rigved it is clarify that aryan are those who follow good path or has good image,whether they belongs to any class) SO, i don’t think that they had good image to call them ARYAN. they were invaders.they invaded IVCs because the IVCs were so advanced in their work ,whether it was construction, archetechure, dam, road .and IVCs believed in the existence of lord shiva(pashupati) and shakti.as the evidence were found from the site(linga and yoni) and they worshipped nature too. SO i think IVCs were actually the true ARYAN.and yup the main fact is that IVCs were nothing but today’s shudra class of india.And finally they invaded the IVCs and classified them as lower class.And copied all the important culture,religion and lifestyle of IVCs .AND INTRODUCED A NEW EDITION BOOK RIGVED AMONG THEMSELVES, IN WHICH (LORD SHIVA REPRESENT AS RUDRA) AND ALL THOSE NEW DEITIES SUCH AS INDRA,AGNI,VARUN,PAWAN,SURYA,UMA,LORD VISHNU,BRAHMA ETC. FROM THERE NATIVE ROMAN CULTURE.THERFORE CASTE AND DIFFERENT KIND OF GODS ARE THE SIMPLE EXAMPLE OR EVIDENCE FOR THAT THEY ARE INVADERS…

  7. even though the evidence in favour of migration is extensive, some points are really bothersome.

    most importantly there is no mention of the aryan ‘homeland’ in the vedas.the only word we find is Jambudvipa, which ofcourse means the Continent/Island of Jambu ie woodapples. The Jamun originated here.

    Indian culture is famed for passing down cultural history in great and unparalleled detail, rituals like the Ati-ratra are known even today approximately 4000 years later. It is unimaginable that the ‘aryans’ did not record this greatly significant event, even verbally.and most people suggest that the migration was relatively recent in which case this becomes all the more pressing.

    The Indo-Iranians also pose a significant question since they too mention only the Hapta-hendu as the original land. Hapta-hendu is ofcourse a mention to sapta-sindhu, the land of seven rivers. And more interesting is the fact that the name of Indus is Sindhu in Sanskrit, which is also a generic name of a river.This shows that the sindhu river had cultural value for the aryans.

    i cannot nor seek to defend the so called ‘hindutvas’, which is of course ungrammatical, hindutva refers to the ideology.I am merely seeking the resolution of my doubts, and hope you will respectfully answer.

    • Indus civilization was predominantly agrarian, there were no temples. ritualistic practices do appear on seals but that is of mother deities. it seems that it was matriarchal society.it was a urban civilization- well planned, water harvesting and drainage systems.Though
      the script which is still not deciphered fully , attempts made by Aska Parpola and other indologists made some headway to decipher it with the help of Dravidian Lagrange.

      Aryans and Sanskrit are not originated in india. More than 300 words were found in Rugveda which are borrowd from other languages. Dravidian, Mundari, Zoroshtrian , Iranian and so on which are non sanskrit.
      the hourse and chariot were the distict demarcation line between indus civilization and vedic civilization. We cannot find any proof of existance of house in south asian history before 1500 bc
      and vedas – most anciant among them rugveda is describing hourses, how to tame them chariots .. etc. In Iranian word for Chariot is Rath-o , in sanskrit it is Ratham, irani rathista and sanskrit ratheshta means the same Rath Chalak- Chariot Driver. The invention of Rathas happened some where in northern Kazakistan in Russia. around 1500 bc. So it was the timse when sanskrit irani not departed in two branches.
      Hindutv tries to prove that hindu religion is the most ancient religion and every civilization came in to existance out of it,. If aryan not came from out side they must be originated from india these two extrims are equaly resist.
      How the struggle described in vedas agaist asura, dasas and dasus can be explained?
      indra destroyed haryupiy city.. of asura situated on the velly of Iravati,.
      devas were residing on the top of meru and Asuras in the sally.
      of course this type of killings and destruction are not found. but how all these things mentioned about Aryans in the Vedas can be denied? are the vedas created by Britisher. To prove the Aryan Invasion theory?
      hi
      these are loud thinking.
      But Hindu or Muslim nationalist approaches cannot explain the secrets of Indian civilization. because then there religiosity doctrine will be failed.
      Mistakes can be omitted and read.

      • You are correct Kardam. I can’t believe an Indian is actually right about this question for once. Thx for not being a sheep.

        • You are doing great job. I don’t agree with you that an Indian cannot take right position on this question. Indian historians Romila Thaper and others took right position on this question.

          But the problem I think lies in understanding ancient civilization like Indus from the Nationalist-perspective – Hindu religious – framework . This school not only failed in explaining Indus civilization but also failed in explaining Vedic civilization… and its historicity.

          Some spelling and grammar mistakes are there in my post.
          One para. should be corrected and read as follows:
          The horse and chariot were the distinct demarcation line between indus civilization and vedic civilization. We cannot find any proof of existance of horse in entire south asian history before 1500 BC….

          Those who are interested in exposing the fallacy and distortion of Pro-Hindutv forces must and should read decade old debate appeared in front line about horse play in Indus civilization. Michael Witzel and steve farmer and Romila Thaper ruthlessly exposed the claim made by some body called Rajaram that they found that Indus script was post Vedic Sanskrit and Indus civilization was nothing else but Hindu.

          Thank you for encouraging me.

          kardam

      • Learning Indian history from Romila Thapar is like learning Christianity from Al-Qaida. It would never be more than an opposition of populist history for the sake of it.

        History is written by victors.

        • The problem is that Romila Thapar is one of the tiny few actual intellectuals in your whole pitiful country. And she is despised by the vast majority of Hindu intellectuals. One of the only scholars in the whole land, and they all hate her.

        • kardam

          History –or historicity of human existance canoot be learned with ahistorical perspective.. history doesnt respect our gods or goddeses or their desires to make VEDAS the centre of entire univers …
          belief is deferent thing you can believe…History alwas traces material evidences ….
          history can be written by victors .so what?…Again victories or difeats cannot be understood without historical perspective…
          history…is material …cannot be understood with the knoledge of relgeous scripture but if you have true materialistic historical perspective then we can understand the hisoricity of gods goddesses and historical need of established religeaon…
          no way dear no beleaver would ever understand the history..
          enough harm has been done by hindu nationalist or say indian nationalist to mislead the world by destorting history…mixing cocktail of religeon and neo-colonialism to gather….
          kardam

      • Prashant

        I am a rationalist. I am a Hindu also.
        I do not favor Hindu nationalism. I favor rationalism. In some faiths you are supposed to believe. Believe in a book and never question. I think we should have right

        to question, debate and criticize any book be it Vedas, Bhagvatgeeta, Quran, Bible and what so ever.
        I also feel that western historians many a times try to discard achievements of ancient India. And ancient India has not been given its due (irrespective of whatever mess our country is currently).
        For example origins of Bhrahmi are debatable. There are suggestions that it is of Aramic orgin introduced in India in Mauryan age But there are several strong suggestions that there may be writing system in India before Mauryas : http://musham.wordpress.com/2008/09/21/brahmi-older-than-ashoka-used-in-ceylon-from-800bc/ ]
        However western historians do not discuss this.

        Here it makes sense to mention that I admire that the scientific progress has been made almost entirely by west in modern times.

        After reading Rigveda, I feel Rigveda doesn’t have mention of many things and is mostly praise chants for their deities. Not a great source to figure out what was happening at that time.
        Also, I feel they were arrogant semi civilized and violent people when compared to IVC people, who used to think its common to kill and get killed and that they were the best and most civilized.
        However you do find verses although very few where you can see that the writer of the verse has expressed his lack of knowledge and has desired answers. There are some verses with profoundness.

        Now, when we talk about timing of Aryan Invasion, I am wondering how do we explain the mention of Saraswati river as a big river in both Rigveda and Mahabharata.
        Most of the geologists believe that Sararswati dried up completely by 1900 BC.

        Also, Mitanni nobles who ruled Part of Anatolia and Syria from 1500 BC to 1300 BC had many Indo Aryan and not Indo-Iranian (like Varun) deities. They had many specific Indo Aryan characteristics.

        I also feel that not enough archaeological surveys have been done in India except north west India which who knows may reveal some more about IVC or Aryan

        civilization. There are unanswered questions if we agree that Rigvedic culture started after IVC.

        • The Saraswati River question has already been answered and dealt with.

        • Prashant

          Please post any link where Saraswati question has been discussed.
          And, what about Mitanni nobles? If they were Indo Aryans. How did they reach and established themselves in Turkey in 15th century BC when you propose that Rigveda can not be dated back before 1300 BC.
          Here is an non-editable page in wiki which says:

          “Mitanni (Hittite cuneiform KUR URUMi-ta-an-ni, also Mittani Mi-it-ta-ni) or Hanigalbat (Assyrian Hanigalbat, Khanigalbat cuneiform Ḫa-ni-gal-bat) was an Hurrian-speaking state in northern Syria and south-east Anatolia from ca. 1500 BC–1300 BC. Founded by an Indo-Aryan ruling class governing a predominately Hurrian population”

          http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mitanni

          :

        • One branch of Indo-Aryan went to Mittani and the other branch went down to Pakistan, Afghanistan and east to Northwest India.

      • RD

        I will ignore Robert Lindsay for a moment for obvious reasons. @Kardam – it has been a couple of decades since overwhelming archaeological records have broken the Aryan Invasion theory. There is no sign of an invasion in all of IVC. No mass murders, no destruction of buildings, no signs of loot and plunder. This fact is attested to by archaeologists from both the west and the east. As a result most Indologists have come around to the conclusion that there was no Aryan Invasion. Now they postulate an Aryan Migration theory – which says that Aryans migrated gradually. There is no record of that in the IVC either. As was proven with the Aryan Invasion theory, all that we can conclude safely is that there is no scientific evidence to prove either of the theories right or wrong despite the venom Robert Lindsay uses to state otherwise. In the absence of conclusive evidence, there is folklore to fall back on for Indians and half truths to fall back on for certain scholars.

      • Horse remains in IVC

        “Surkotada site contains horse remains dated to ca. 2000 BCE, which is considered a significant observation with respect to Indus Valley Civilisation. Sándor Bökönyi (1997), on examining the bone samples found at Surkotada, opined that at least six samples probably belonged to true horse. During 1974, Archeological Survey of India undertook excavation in this site and J.P.Joshi and A.K.Sharma reported findings of horse bones at all levels (cicra 2100-1700 BCE)”

        Source:
        http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Surkotada

        Second article:

        Remains of horses have been claimed to have been found in deposits at Mahagara near Allahabad (dated to around 2265 BC to 1480 BC, described as Equus ferus caballus Linn), Hallur in Karnataka (c.1500 – 1300 BC, described as Equus ferus caballus), Mohenjo-Daro, Harappa (“small horse”), Lothal (e.g., a terracotta figurine and a molar horse tooth, dated to 2200 BC), Kalibangan, and Kuntasi (dated to 2300–1900 BC). Horse remains from the Harappan site Surkotada (dated to 2400-1700 BC) have been identified by A.K. Sharma as Equus ferus caballus.

        Further reading

        Singh, Upinder (2008). A History of Ancient and Early Medieval India : from the Stone Age to the 12th century. New Delhi: Pearson Education. p. 158. ISBN 9788131711200.
        Cf. Meadow, R. H. and Patel, 1997. Archeological Survey of India. Indian Archeology 1974-75.
        Edwin Bryant, Edwin Fransic Bryant. The Quest for Origins of Vedic Culture:The Indo Aryan Migration Debate. Oxford University Press. 2001 Page 171
        Falconer H. and Cautley, Fauna Antiqua Sivalensis, Being the Fossil Zoology of the Siwalik Highlands in the North of India, 1849, London.

      • R D

        @Kardam.. did you wake up now to this? The Invasion theory has been rejected overwhelmingly for a simple scientific fact – there is absolutely NO evidence of an invasion of the IVC in all of the archaeological digs. Robert Lindsay off course will not comment on this simple fact. The Muslims invade and take away riches to their home country. The White colonialist barbarians invade and its evidence is found in the rich cities of Europe. The supposedly Aryan invasion has no proof at all.

  8. Don’t have website.Please do the need full. Moderation in terms of spelling, grammer is requere, but not in terms of views.
    kardam

  9. waiting for your reply and suggestions.
    kardam

  10. Pingback: Veda kosovo | Kelstonmarketi

  11. Aryo

    Aryan Migration did happen, but to an earlier date, between 6000-4000 B.C.E. The carriers of the haplogroups J2 and G were those Aryans.

    • Pepperoncini

      No such thing.
      Indo-Aryan intrusion into the SubContinent was sometime around 1500 BC but maybee earlier up to 1700 or 1900 BC.
      Aryans did not exist at the dates you claim, because Linguists can roughly place when Indo-Aryan split from other Indo-Iranian languages.

      The Rig Veda describes a pastoral rural lifestyle of raiding and warfare, it does not speak of urban centers / cities, town planning, public baths , seafaring, maritime mercantilism, arts and crafts manufacturing industry etc… , all aspects of the Indus Valley Civ.

      R1a1a is generally regarded as the Indo-Aryan and Indo-Iranian marker . But carriers of other Y Hap groups would have been assimilated by the Aryans.

  12. SanWest

    First the British came with the intention of uprooting the vedic religion. Then they discovered the great meaning of the books and how it looked like it predates a lot of their historical literature and ancient science. But looking at the Indians (this is my speculation) they couldn’t agree with having them coming up with these great ancient innovations. Also it couldn’t predate the bible of course, with the little fact that the world was made 4000 BCE ago (for the so christian philanthropist this was important) . So 1. its less then 4000 for sure and 2. it can not be indigenous, as the science must have been giving through Egypt and Greece (while the reverse is far more plausible with the current date, knowing about the ancient learning places of ancient india, Nalanda and Takshashila, which predates that of Egypt and Mesopotamia).

    When studying the intriguing Sanskrit, scholars discovered a link between it and Greece and Latin. It seemed they where connected, belonging to the same languages family sort of speak. Immediately different opinions (!) were made 1. many, including Voltaire, said that Sanskrit must be the mother languages of all (European) and thus India the mother of its science (trough the Egyptians, Greece and later Arabs). The other camp, including one of the first Sanskrit scholars, Max Muller, also being German with around the time that nationalism got hold of Europa (not long before the first WW), said that the people of the Veda’s who calls themself ‘Arya’ must be Europeans who went east as an nomadic tribe and took the Vedas with them as they took home to many eastern countries including India. Note that later the theory changed to not Europa specifically but western/central Asia.

    The story continues.

    Almost a hundred years later through excavation monuments (whole cities) have been found that ,to some, was the hidden key to the antiquity of the, till today, mysterious and mostly unknown vedic civilization (which came in to india, not belonging to it, according to the mainstream scholars). Finally some proof could be there that linked the rig veda to India, as before there was no proof towards both theories.

    Too bad for those people, established ideas where kept by the (conservative) scholars of Europe (who where dominant in the scholar area), because it interferes too much with the established (and still present) theories and ideas of the ancient past of human civilization. That the symbol use where common in vedic times and thus relates to IVC is not seen. That taking a bath as a religious practice each morning in vedic times actually related to the pools and such, is also not mentioned. Many more similarities can be made if one seeks it. Yet ,many dissimilarities can also be made if one seeks it.

    So after years of internet research and through the help of my history teacher i have come to the conclusion that the way we are now handling this situation, we will NEVER know the true history of the Indo-Europe people and languages. The western side will never give in to the ‘ out of india theory’ simple because it would mean that a lot of their indigenous inventions (of Greece, Roman and even Egypt) wouldn’t be theirs anymore and history actually had to be rewritten. So instead of actually be open towards it, most scholars rather fight the idea, cunningly coming up with (small) holes in any alternative theories. On the other hand, Indian nationalist tend to go overboard as they stick to (miss)interpretations of very old and ancient books. The west still uses logic to fit the holes and don’t go mythical like alot of hindu extremist go with (with dates like 100.000 BCE, which would make any present logical person shudder). For me the Western version has some ground but is also flawed because of its biased past and the fact that it actually has zero material proof (meaning they still can not say where these so called Aryan’s have come from almost 150 years after the theory has been made, while the out of India theory have thousands of ancient cities to back it up). Still history have left a lot of holes that both sides can’t fill.

    Conclusion: The grand line of both theories are actually collective opinions where the individuals seek theoretical proof to show that their theory is right and the other is wrong. Instead of learning we have debating, running around in circles. Which saddens me as individual, for true knowledge of the past still is eluded.

  13. the reality is that IVC actually were the original native of the india and they were wrote the vedas first, because they were not only the best architecture ,peasant,engineers,potter ,smiths but also were briliant philospher or writer,(it is proved by the evidence observed from the IVC site) as the physical feature of india has boon given of the mighty god that it attracts the people from long time.all over the world.the same condition related with aryans,..they came to india and invaded the IVCs….and started to live around the sapt sindhu area…aryans had the opposite living of standard as copmare to IVCs ,,,as they liked to lived in gram or kunba type system and there were not any planning in their cities or town……. but as the time passed , some of the community(kshatriyas) influenced and attracted to toward the living standard of IVCs…..they snatched all the rights and property of IVCs,,,,,as the result IVCs got poor and poorer day by day…some of the community(brahmin) of aryan influenced by their scholar ‘s work or thoughts of the IVCs(logical thoughts),,,,in which they altered it and made a new converted rig vedas in sanskrit language(as it has proved that rig vedas was wrote before the arrival of aryans in india)………..and as the mass of IVCs were much more as compare to aryans…………….so the brahmin implemented the changed varna system to bide the IVCs people…..as the aryans were invaders so, they gave the IVCs to lowest sect to bide them and made it hierarichly ……and as the time passed away the history of the IVCs get buried deep and deeper….presently IVCs are nothing but shudras achhott(INCLUDING OBCs (sachhoot)) of todays time……..as the time passed the economically,financially,physically and mentally get poor and poorers………this is the true fact (hidden histroy) of india……….and these all thing concluded from all around world’s valuable books….

  14. this is cent per cent correct that aryans were from the north -west……and they were the invaders….they invaded the IVCs….and ruled over sapt sindhu..because there is not described about the vindhychal range or any other special except the “sapt sindu” in vedas. if they were native of the india country then they should had a knowledge of features of india….as it was written by the aryans(brahmin)…..

    • Sidhardh

      Aryan Invasion is a Myth. It was scientifically disproven. You can search more and more videos and concepts on this in youtube (ofcourse you need to know, how to search at first place).

      Dota, it is really shame that you believe, we owe west for gifting us “our” history. Sure, they did, only after destroying the original history and rewriting their own. Say thanks to Mr Max Muller for that.

      Mr Lindsay, I tell you what. This is not the first time, a Robert Lindsay came out yelling that, some invasion took place, Aryans, non Aryans, blah blah blah. Since the early western man came to India, he has been trying to do this. He has been trying to malign the history. But never succeeded and nobody does. These kind of blogs or some other pro aryan theories may just flood the internet and they just vanish.

    • Sidhardh

      Royal blood,

      I could say nothing more than, I pity you at your pathetic situation or lack of knowledge on Indian civilization. You should get your facts straighten out. How much study did you do regarding vedas and other stuff. Agastiar was known to have crossed Vidhya ranges to enter Southern India and Agastiar is pre Aryan person.. It is just an example. If I had to quote, I can quote several. Southern Indian kingdoms, tribes, people were mentioned in Mahabharata,( read the original versions, not the reinvented one by some stupid authors, who added their own versions).

  15. Sidhardh

    Does the so called pro Aryan theologists know the meaning of Arya? Its not a race , you stupid people. Certainly not the one the Nazis claim for ? And they certainly not whites. Rama was not white, Krishna was not white. Wait a minute, now you say Rama was a myth, Krishna was a myth… really… go and check out the excavations of Dwaraka. …. Rama and Krishna are true, just like Jesus and Bible.

  16. Aravind

    Intersting topic . It is difficult to prove or disprove anything with absolutely certainty but applying a logical view point it is hard to see Vedic Sanskrit being indigenous to India for numerous reasons

    1. Vedic Sanskrit is extremely similar to avestan (old Persian ) it is almost possible to read avestan text if you can read sanskrit with just a few transliterations – s to h etc ie soma becomes hoama etc . However Vedic Sanskrit contains retroflex consonants and Dravidian loan words not present in avestan becoming more prominent in the latter stages implying that the Vedic peoples were in contact with a Dravidian or another language group in India .

    2. The avestan and rig Vedic and pantheon shows many similarities as with all indo European groups implying they were in all likelyhood a single group at one stage . Ahura Mazda of the old Iranians is in all likelyhood Varuna of the Vedas and there are numerous cultural and linguistic similarities thus the parent group of avestan and Vedic Sanskrit likely have the same language and religion . In India Varuna worship declined and was supplanted by Indra ( who was demonised by the avestan ) but in the rig Veda the original lofty position of Varuna can still be seen.

    4. The presence of Dravidian languages in the south also implies a migration of people to the north. Compare with English .. English is not native to Britain the migration occurred in 500AD from denmark/germany pushing the native celts to scotland and Wales . Similarly the presence of Elamites in Iran brahui in Pakistan and Dravidian in the south implies that another group has scattered these related groups . Sanskrit and Tamil show little connection at a basic level for commonly spoken words unlike Sanskrit and Latin . At a higher level there are a lot of loan words in written texts between Tamil and sanskrit .

    In all this points to the origin of Sanskrit outside India .. Classical Sanskrit however was made in India as codified by pannini . I doubt there was an invasion but in all likelihood a migration of indo aryans from the north west to the Indus area towards the decline of that civilisation . They preserved a lot of their original stories and also modified them to fit in with their new environment .

  17. seeker

    The theory of Aryan invasion is completely true….its just that some of the Hindu nationalists want to prove otherwise to show that the ‘Hindu-Aryan’ culture is the epicenter of all other ancient civilizations. This neo-aryanist theory is completely based on the premise that India was the homeland of Aryans which is absolutely baseless.

    To begin with all Hindu nationalist intellectuals have claimed Sanskrit being as old as or even part of Indo-harappan civilization. If that was true then there would be some evidence of similarities between the language used by harappans and Sanskrit. But evidences shows other wise. Infact the period after the decline of harappans shows a complete discontinuity of language,art,literature,architecture….etc and a sudden emergence of Aryan language and culture. This becomes even more significant when we look at the fact that Sanskrit and Indo-Iranian language shows great similarity….how is it possible then that Sanskrit influenced Iranian language and not the harappans….even though Iranians were seperatrd by thousands of miles….the only possibility is that the Aryan tribe bifurcated at an earlier period in central Asia and one branch came to India while the other ended up in Iran. The Dravidian loan words in Sanskrit which is not found in Indo-Iranian language is an added evidence.

    Am an Indian and extremely proud of hqrappan civilization…but history is history…though it may have several interpretations it should not be twisted and distorted for political gains. For me harappan civilization is special but I accept the fact that other cibilizations have achieved much more than what harappans did in the field of architecture,science…etc. Yet in many other fields harappan’s inventions and proficiency remains unmatched.

    The evidence I have discussedis just one of the many which proves Aryan invasion to be true….

    Good work Robert Lindsey…..

    • Thank you very much my friend!

    • Vikram

      Yes that is why 400 years of Muslim oppression and subsequent 300 years of Gospel spreading Europeans tried all dirty tricks in their mind to convert Hindu India. But look it still stands tall and this is big slap to childish religions founded and spread after 1AD in India. The way you believe Hindu want to show epicenter of world as India, Christians /Europeans have lived daydreaming for 2000 years now.

    • O my god is it really true, because the last time I checked its civilization, not CIBILIZATION. The triple horned god found at Harappa representing Apam Napat as well as cart and chariot figurines all indicate Aryan presence as well as fire altars. There is no discontinuity, but rather an evidenced continuum from Mehrgarh through the late Harappa and even some Painted Grey Ware. If anything at least spell the self delusional buffoon Robert Lindsay’s name right. As far as Iranian languages go they have roots in the Yaz culture that derived from BMAC influences

    • RD

      @Seeker – your evidence points to the similarities between Old Iranian and Sanskrit. It could as much have traveled from India to Iran. Nothing you have presented says otherwise. The earlier theory of Aryan invasion is NOT supported by evidence from IVC. There is no proof of mass murder, destroyed buildings, loot and plunder in all of the excavations. The western historians propounding that theory are a discredited lot. The alternative view point given is there was no Invasion but there was Migration. We have not decoded the IVC and their language enough to know what were common and what was not. The script certainly was not common – that we know. Please know both theories have loopholes – including the theory of language migration. The western historians do not have conclusive evidence to fall back on (it never existed) and the Indians (Hindutvavadis as Robert Lindsay would like to propound) have mythology to fall back on. Neither have evidence to prove their theory conclusively. If it was the early 1400s (only 600 years back is what I mean) the Europeans would state with a lot of indignation that the the earth was flat and expect people to accept that as the holy truth.

  18. sumontro

    Hi Robert,

    It seems you feel yourself as a subject matter expert. I will be glad to believe it but i have some doubt and would like those to be cleared by you, without banning me.
    In the 1990s, a new wave of scientific evidence, coming partly from satellite photos, geological study, archeological digs, and other anthropological finds began to seriously discredit the old myth. Once the rubble of false assumptions was cleared away, a far more simple scientific picture of the origins of ancient north Indian civilization began to emerge.
    Professor Colin Renfrew, professor of archeology at Cambridge University, in his
    Archeology and Language: The Puzzle of Indo-European Origins, (1988) gives evidence for Indo-Europeans in India as early as 6,000 BC. He comments: As far as I can see there is nothing in the Hymns of the Rigveda which demonstrates that the Vedic-speaking population were intrusive to the area: this comes rather 6 Origins of Vedic Civilization from a historical assumption about the ‘coming’ of the Indo-Europeans.3
    Professor Schaffer at Case Western University writes in “Migration, Philology and
    South Asian Archaeology” that there was an indigenous development of civilization in India going back to at least 6000 BC. He proposes that the Harappan or Indus Valley urban culture (2600-1900 BC) centered around the Saraswati river described in the Rig Veda and states that the Indus Valley culture came to an end, not because of outside invaders, but due to environmental changes, most important of which was the drying up of the Saraswati river.
    Schaffer holds that the movement of populations away from the Saraswati to the Ganges after the Saraswati dried up in about 1900 BC, is reflected in the change from the Saraswati-based literature of the Rig Veda to the Ganges-based literature of the Itihasa and Puranic texts. He also states that the Aryan invasion theory reflects a
    colonial and Eurocentric perspective that is quite out of date.
    He concludes: We reject most strongly the simplistic historical interpretations…that continue to be imposed on south Asian culture history…Surely, as south Asian studies approach the twenty-first century, it is time to describe emerging data objectively rather than perpetuate interpretations without regard to the data archaeologists have worked so hard to reveal.4 Anthropologist Brian Hemophilia of Vanderbilt University has been studying the human remains of the northern Indian subcontinent for years. He states categorically that his analysis shows no indication of population replacement or large-scale migration.5
    Archaeologist Mark Kenoyer, associate professor of anthropology at the University of Wisconsin at Madison, and co-director of the Harappa Archeological Research project, holds that the invasion theory is completely unsupported by archeological, linguistic, or literary evidence. He writes in an article on the Indus valley civilization:3 Colin Renfrew, Professor of Archeology at Cambridge University, in his famous work, Archeology and Language: The Puzzle of Indo-European Origins, (Cambridge: Cambridge Univ. Press, 1988) Renfrew also sees evidence that the Indo-Europeans were in Greece as early as 6,000 BC. 4 in Aryan and Non-Aryan in South Asia: Evidence, Interpretation and History, ed. by Bronkhorst and Deshpande, University of Michigan Press.5
    See Jonnathan Mark Kenoyer, “Birth of a Civilization.” Archeology, January/February 1998, 54-61, p. 61. 7 Origins of Vedic Civilization If previous scholars were wrong about the origin of the Indus people, they also missed the boat when it came to explaining their downfall, which they attributed to an invasion by Indo-Aryan speaking Vedic tribes from the northwest.6
    Archeological evidence simply does not support the thesis of an outside invasion.
    Kenoyer argues, “it’s likely that the rivers dried up and shifted their courses, altering trade routes and undermining the economy.” Kenoyer holds that the Indus valley script can be traced to at least 3,300 BC—making it as old or older than the oldest Sumerian written records.
    Archaeologist Kenneth Kennedy writes that no Aryan skeletons have been found in the Indus valley that differ from the skeletons of indigenous ethnic groups. All prehistoric human remains recovered from the Indian subcontinent are phenotypically identifiable as south Asians. Furthermore their biological continuity with living peoples of India, Pakistan, Sri Lanka and the border regions is well established across time and space.7
    Scientific archeology, it is now safe to say, no longer gives the invasion theory a grain of credibility. It has lost its supporters among serious scientists. Also, as professor Renfrew argues, there is no internal evidence from the ancient Vedic literature that Vedic civilization originated outside India. The verses of the Rig
    Veda, the most ancient songs of Vedic tradition, detail many aspects of daily life of the people.
    There is no hint in this vast literature of a migration or of a history that lies in a homeland beyond the mountains of northern India. All evidence from archeology, anthropology, and Vedic literature indicate that Vedic civilization was indigenous to northern India. Geological data now explains the demise of the Indus and Saraswati valley civilizations in terms of climactic change, bringing an end to the outside invasion theory.

    • Liberal

      Where can you find the falacy? This is such an awsome composition

    • Shazam

      “Also, as professor Renfrew argues, there is no internal evidence from the ancient Vedic literature that Vedic civilization originated outside India.”

      Actually there is. The earliest Vedas, the perverted Rig Veda, includes the Horse Sacrifice in which the queen has sex with the dead horse. There is no evidence of horses in the Indus Valley Civilization.

      • narut00

        vedic sanskrit is almost an art in my opinion,its grammatically complicated poetic beauty however, sadly often allows for misinterpretations and false translations
        Ashva= HORSE or NATION
        Medha= SACRIFICE, TAX, or DISCERNING WISDOM
        Yajna= ACT WITH ABSOLUTELY NO VIOLENCE, FOR THE GOOD OF ALL or sangratikaran ASSEMBLE/TO COLLECT
        thus, it must be impossible to poetically or literally translate “Ashva megha yagna” as horse killing sacrifice (as killing is contradictory to an act of yajna)
        a proper, more logical interpretation/ translation would likely be: TO ASSEMBLE THE NATION’S WISEST (for some righteous purpose…the good of all) (nation+wisdom+assemble)

        • Shazam

          You are running around in circles and making no sense whatsoever. The description of the horse sacrifice in the Vedas and the perverted sex it includes is lengthy and detailed. You can dance around it and imagine alternative meanings for every word but all you will achieve is tie yourself in meaningless knots.

          It is really stupid and hypocritical to on the one hand claim that the Vedas is eternal truth and on the other that it is subject to later, conflicting, interpretations. The Horse Sacrifice was literally conducted in post-Vedic scriptures as well, including the Ramayana. Clearly the incarnation of the Hindu God did read the Vedas as literal truth. So why are you ashamed of it?

        • narut00

          heh!
          other religions do the same!
          jesus in the bible literally says that= “If your right eye causes you to sin, tear it out and throw it away! It is better to lose one of your members than to have your whole body thrown into hell. 30 If your right hand causes you to sin, cut it off and throw it away! It is better to lose one of your members than to have your whole body go into hell”
          since the first time i read it i was shocked,and my first impression of it is the literal meaning!
          however when i want to church some time,the church there rejected that jesus says that is better to mutilate yourself than being a sinner,because they says jesus was talking about our “spiritual” hands,eyes or something like that
          -another example is= “he [Jesus] hungered. And seeing a fig tree afar off having leaves, he came, if perhaps he might find anything thereon: and when he came to it, he found nothing but leaves; for it was not the season of figs. And he answered and said unto it, ‘No man [will] eat fruit from you from now on — for ever.’ And his disciples heard it . . .And as they passed by in the morning, they saw the fig tree withered away from the roots. And Peter calling to remembrance said unto him, ‘Rabbi, behold, the fig tree that you cursed is withered away’”
          my first impression is that jesus was hungry and he killed a fig tree because he was dissapointed when the fig tree even didn’t did that on purpose! a little ilogical
          however the church i went “explained” that the tree symbolizes a person,the figs his “spiritual” fruits (like success evangelizing people,etc) and that if you don’t produce “spiritual” fruits you will be cursed a.k.a go to hell
          -and my third example here,but there are more,is the bible affirm snakes eat dusttt!
          however again the church interpret it in a spiritual way,saying that the snake represent the devil and eating dust is eating our sins!
          so hindus have the right to interpret spiritually and not literally the controversial parts of their texts too 😉
          PS i personally dismiss the ramayana since is non revealed text (a smriti) i think true hinduism is shruti texts like VEDAS and UPANISHADS so i don’t care 2 dimes what the ramayana says,another proof that is false,since the vedas meant it in a spiritual context and the writers of the ramatana took it in a physical context,perverted low moral smriti texts

      • Dan

        There isn’t, because the famous horse expert Bokyoni has scientifically identified horse bones in the India subcontinent using tooth analysis

      • RD

        See his supposition. To belabor the point, He says nothing in the Vedas (Rig Veda if you will) mentions the vedic civilization as outside of India. Having sex with a dead horse and no evidence of horses in IVC proves the civilization is outside of India? Is there proof there were no horses in India at that time?

      • R D

        @Shazam.. you are not just ignorant.. you do not even have the intellectual honesty to do a simple google search about what the Ashva Medha sacrifice. Have you read the Rig Veda? Do you know Sanskrit? Did you ask a 10 year old in today’s India about the Ashwamedha sacrifice. Don’t know where you are from – but you are an abomination on the face of earth.

  19. Raju

    Ok if the aryans were indigenous to India why do the Avestan scriptural sources claim that the original homeland of the aryans is in the area of modern day Uzbekistan , Turkmenistan and northern Afghanistan! The Avestan people also call themselves Aryans have a very similar culture and religious practice to the Vedic Indians and they acknowledge that Iran wasn’t their first homeland but they migrated from those places mentioned above! They then mention the 16 aryan nation states at the time of Zararutha ( long after the demise of the harapan civilisation) which includes Iran and also the Indus ( north west India ) but not any other part of India ….

    If India was there original Aryan homeland then surely they would have kept that in their scriptural record

  20. I am surprised no one is speaking of Genetics and the genetic evidence of migration of people from Africa does not seem to indicate that India was only a recent home to people. At best there could have been trickle of population from outside India hardly an evidence that an existing culture could be overthrown from West to East, North to South. It should have been no less spectacular than a European colonization and that seems so very unlikely as the so-called “Aryan culture” which remains in India does not survive much outside India or during 1500 BC.

    We are yet to see scientific evidences in favor of Aryan migration theory. But out of India theory seems quite consistent with genetic studies. It is fairly clear from these genetic studies that most population outside Africa owe their origin to India. It is not only true with regard to the west , it is true even with regard to east.

    Well I am an Indian but the Genetic research on origin of people is not owned by any Indians or controlled by Indians. Neither is this site owned by Indians.
    http://www.bradshawfoundation.com/journey/

    Bye folks enjoy and waste your time arguing about outdated theories. Dont care much , as people who head these departments in different universities will need to start packing up their bags, as recession is sweeping away the western economies and emptying their coffers – so much for useless research on Aryan migration theory or whatever…. blah blah blah

    Bye………………

    • Raju

      What does genetic studies prove ? The population is genetically the same does mean they spoke the same language or had the same religion ??

      Look at what the Spanish did to the incas a few Spanish people converted the native population to speaking Spanish and being catholic !

      There are many African countries speaking Portuguese or French even though genetically the populations are the same!

      Genetics and culture don’t always go hand in hand

    • Subbu, You are wrong. It is in plain sight. Leave South India out of the picture. Take any north Indian place and compare the color of the skin of the lower castes and upper castes. You will see that the upper castes have paler skins. The fact that even after 4 or 5 millennium latter we can observe this, imagine what it should have been. How did two different colors came to be side by side? Obviously one of these is a foreigner.

      Secondly, the language Sanskrit is similar to Latin, Greek, German etc.That is, either Sanskrit went from India to all these places or it came from some of these places into India. Now, we know very well that the South Indian languages are not Sanskrit based. So, please tell me how Sanskrit went from Northern India to Germany but could not penetrate into Southern India?

      Thirdly, please tell me why Sanskrittan literature only talks about rivers in Punjab and North India? It does not mention Kaveri or Krishna. Why? This is because these were foreign to them. Infact, the Rig Vedians knew only Punjab because that is the first place where they settled.

      There are evidences relating to Horses, Horse sacrifices, Soma Drinks which link the Aryans to outside India.

      Hindu religion is peculiar. It stratifies people into castes. Lower castes are darker and upper castes are paler. We know that caste boundaries are very hard to cross even today. Imagine what it would have been 2000 years ago when Manu Smirti was punishing inter caste children. Why did this happen? It could not have happened in a homogeneous population. In America, it is now 150 years since slaves have been freed. But inter racial children are not a very high percentage. It may take another 2000 years or even more to have even a semblance of a mixed population.

      It is an undeniable thing that linguistically, ethnically, culturally India is made up of different peoples and Aryans came from outside but Dravidians and Mund people were here much much earlier. Sanskrit and Aryans are outsiders and surprisingly, these people are the same as the Afghanis, Poshthuns and such people of modern day age!

      It is laughable to say Sanskritan people moved out of Northern India to Euorope! Why did they go there? What route did they take? Why would they go to places like that through difficult terrains and through narrow passes? You mean that they were hunting for ice? At that time, South India was a rich country with a lot of water resources and forestry and great climate and high culture. Northern India itself was a rich place. There is simply no rhyme or reason for people to leave India and then go to Germany!

      The fact that in Germany they count the numbers same way as Sanskrit, proves people came from there. If Sanskritan people were natives of India, I bet you, South Indian peoples will not be counting the numbers as onnu, rendu, moonu today but they will be doing it the same way as Germans do.

      Gunzo

      • DraviidanaryanScythian

        “Take any north Indian place and compare the color of the skin of the lower castes and upper castes”
        Emm not really.. most north Indians from U.P&Bihar states look just as dark as south indians i don’t know anyone’s caste to be honest… it is only the few punjabis,NW&NN Indians who have notably fairer skin other are mostly the same.

        and please don’t tell me you’re still on that “Manusmṛti is evil” thing it is not any more evil than Deuteronomy.

        “Obviously one of these is a foreigner”
        PLOT TWIST:Dravidians invaded light skinned indus valley inhabitants 😄

        “Sanskrit and Aryans are outsiders”
        How are they outsiders if they have been here for like thousands of years and share their DNA,culture&religion with us? can you even separate South Indian culture from Hindu culture?

        “Hindu religion is peculiar. It stratifies people into castes.”
        So did all the ancient feudal societies actually.. Social equality is a modern phenomenon.

        “Aryans came from outside”
        By the same logic Dravidians are also outsiders because they obviously came somewhere from central ASIA just because dravidian language family isn’t as widespread as indo-European language doesn’t mean that they are automatically native to India.

      • raj sher

        Onnu is same as one. South indian onnu did go to england. Either south indians went to england or english came to south india. In basque half means erdha. Ardha is sanskrit. Both south indian and north indian went to europe.

      • “Hindu religion is peculiar. It stratifies people into castes.”
        And who is responsible for caste system in Eqyptian, Mesopotamians, Chinsese, Mayan etc civilizations. You are definitely confused between Hindu as a religion vs Hindus as Civilization.

  21. The Rig Veda is not that precise on an Aryan homeland but judging by the amount of words in common with other IE languages, Greek, even Hittite, it does seem Aryans originated out of India, sites like Arkaim in Russian
    central Asia and allied sites should by now put an end to all this out of India nonsense. I do seem to recall reading something about the land around Meru being the homeland, bu the Rig Veda does not elaborate any further

    if the Hindu nationalists are so worried about their nation’s pride, they should for a change, get their nation out of the gutter and raise it to the level it once was, in the time of Asoka, then they can talk about the power of Indian culture and nationhood.

    • Aryan invasion theory and Hindu nationalists’ claim to be true and pure Aryan are two sides of the same coin. history does not deny the emergence of Aryan identity and its migration not one but series of migrations and their changing identities.but one has to grasp that how these identities had change in historical processes.
      Hindu nationalist are imposing even Hinduism on poor nomadic Aryans.
      Nation state is a modern phenomenon and religion cannot serve as ideological basis of such nation state. no chance even by shifting to Ashoka the great or to Buddhism.
      kardam

  22. James

    wow… what an argument indeed. See form what I have read on Indian history I believe that their was no such thing as an invasion by indo aryans, but their definatly was a migration of peoples. The most likely thing that happened is during the early 2nd mellenium B.C. basically as we know now the Indus valley civilization did not get invaded it has been proven. Given that nearly all reputed scholars declare that the indus valley declined due to climate change, drought, and loss of trade with Egypt and Mesopotamia by around 1800b.c.. In reality the so called Aryans or should I say a branch of the indo european group were migratory who did migrate to india but soon adopted the local culture and customs and eventually became a part of late harrapan society. Therefore you can see how their are genetic differences and similarities between this migration and harrapans in the latter period. Now the rig veda is a text that is huge and yes it may have been compiled and written in book form in 1500-1600 b.c but the oldest writings in it have been dated back to at least 2000 b.c well during the time of the harrappan. Plus for much of its history the rig veda was oral tradition and given how huge it is, thier is no way all of it could be written in such a small time frame. Also the current rig veda we have is of only one school. A lot more vedic texts were around but they have been lost to history. Inf act the rig vedic texts max mueller found were only from one school for the rigveda and in fact thier were many other scriptures that unfortunatly burnt down. Therefore I posit that it was first created in around 2100-2000 b.c and finally compiled and written by 1700-1500 b.c. Therefore both the Out of india theory and the aryan invasion theory are wrong. What is more likely is that indo europeans did exist but given the vast amount of space they lived in their were bound to be differences among them. Remember indo european is linguistic not racial. Therefore the most likely event as that sometime during harrapan civilization around 2100-20000 b.c maybe a bit late or earlier their were people who migrated and soon coexcisted with the harrapans and soon a cultural and societal transfer took place. Thus the vedas are indeed not as old as 3000 b.c but can be considered to have been orally known during as far back as 2500 b.c( a rough guess) but once they came in contact with the agrarian harrapan their culture was incorporated and so you have a combination of the two beliefs which was then finally after many centuries compiled in the form of the rig veda as a combination of the two societies beliefs. What do you all think. Also about indian historians quite frankly no side is secular. in fact those decrying the hindutva movement are themsleves biased just as the hindutvas are biased themselves. True pluralism is when one is accepting of all beliefs and holds the to be equally valid. Therefore by decrying the hindutva for their beliefs you are no longer secular but have gotten into the religious field and this is not what is supposed to happen in History. History is about objectivity and viewing things form an outside lens. If one shows bias then his work should be taken with a pinch of salt. Therefore both sides need to learn tog row up and accept that both have heir differences but the so called secular people claim that other religions had a lot to do with india, yes they did but they all developed afterward in response to the practices of vedic india or came through invasions and etc into india. Therefore the hindutva are wrong in saying that they are the ones who all are descended form or that they live in a homogenous society just as anti hindutvas say that hindutvas are fascist(yeah right, true fascism is nothing like what the hindutvas are) themselves losing sight of secularism and objectivity. It seriously is terrible that the mess Indian history has gotten itself and is a pity. So much could be learned through cooperation agreement and understanding, yet bickering leads to no one being successful. Remember the key in history is objectivity and cooperation with others to learn about a societies social, cultural, political, and economic past through cooperation and joint work as well as collaborations. Not infighting.

  23. PACHARAIYA

    the first thing u all shuld understand that the word ‘arya’ is not a race for indian it’s a compliment for the learned and diciplant peoples,
    a little knowlage is more dangerous then nathing.
    at early days sanskrit for english people is like an alian language the jus understand its physic not its soul.
    then what about the indian civilization?
    i wanna tell u that if u take a deep study on it u will find a step by step devlopment in it by the awakness and intillectualty of these people. thanks and study more

  24. Dear Mr Lindsay, Seeing through your myopic lenses with a white supremacist attitude you can come to any conclusion. The fact never changes that it were the whites which invaded dravid/druid lands of europe and killed natives. The same thing repeats in Americas and Australia &NewZealand. Now apologists like you run to sneek through other civilisations to justify your henious crimes. You cant even explain how a Harappan Pasupati Shiva is engraved on Guendestrop cauldron of Norway. Who were the druids and who killed them in the name of Jesus. Your viewpoint is lousy and idiotic to say the least. Read Jain history and you will know that the Ikshvaku , Ram’s ancestor was the inventor of sugar , the same sugar that was found in Mohen jo daro. My advise to you is to read before jumping to conclusions

      • Somebody

        Let forgot about this theory for a second.

        When India was ruled by the Christian white man, for 400 years , all our ancient inventions were stolen and patented .
        Ancient books did NOT have any author’s names -as knowledge was FREE, like air and water.
        Today we pay more for bottled Evian water than for beer.

        JUST GOOGLE- MACAULAY LETTER INDIA.
        Macaulay destroyed ancient system with the english education system.
        The Education you are studying seems to be boring because it is invented by your own people who destroyed Gurukuls and replaced practical system with exam system.
        Gurukuls don’t have exams.They apply knowledge to practical world.

        BECAUSE OF YOU BRITISHERS, STUDENTS FROM THE WHOLE WORLD ARE SACRIFICING.

      • Vikram

        He has no guts to take Hindu on religious and intellectual ground. Well one can understand the difference between 2000 year old religion and 6000 years old religion. They will not exist after another 1000 years, mark my word.

  25. jayjay

    Annukki from outer space came and butt F**cked Cro magnon man who became Aryan and technologically advanced. Just use Occam’s Razor, slash through to the truth.

  26. James

    Oh robert Im sorry but I would like to clarify my views. What I said above are not hat accurate. In reality this is what I believe happened after doing intense research on the subject.

    Basically this is what happeened. CLimate change and other disasters caused the collapse of the harrapa who soon moved in the direction of the ganges.
    When Indo aryans split from indo iranians circa 2000 b.c.e the first group that left was the varuna cult. This cult believed in the supremacy of Varuna as the head of the pantheona nd soon settled beetween 1900-1700 b.c.e alongside the BMAC and late Harrap areas. However starting from 1700 b.c.e a new cult would emerge known as the soma indra cult. THis cult wwould give birth to the rig vea and given the differences the two greoups shared war broke out from 1700 b.c.e with intermediate fighting lasting until the final defeat of the varuna cult with the battle of the ten kings.

    Basically the dasas refer to the older Varuna cult which opposed the Indra cult and so were naturally viewed as non arya because they didnt believe indra was superior. In this bloody feud the native populations became dragged into it. The native trials were forced to take sides and many chose to take the side of the varuna cult. Because they sided with the sworn enemies of the indra cult they too began to be called dasas by the rigvedic people because they supported its rival Varuna cult. At the same time the three cults that would later create the trimurti started to gain prominence during this feuding. The brhmanaspati cult, the prajapathi cult, and the rudra cult. These cults also split apart the vedic indo aryans. Think of the battles between the varuna and indra cults as akin to the arguments and differences beetween modern day saivates and vaishnaivates or Catholics and protestants except their was more violence and less peacefulness.

    This is what happened if we go by the rig veda. In effect the rig veda is the text that recalls the indra cults triumphant victory over their enemies the varuna cult and later came to include rival cults such as prajapathi and so forth. Therefore dasa doesn’t refer to in the rig veda anyway to dark skinned people or natives. It refers to the followers of the varuna cult and those who were allied with them. The tribal groups though few in number who did ally with the indra cult were not considered as dasas.

    However all of this occurred in the panjab valley and afghanistan. Therefore the aryans actually after uniting migrated into india proper. It was different from the previous battles fought in the panjab and afghanistani areas for supremacy. However with the collapse of the indra cults power-base in the northwest the cult lost its prominence and given the varuna cult was already beatean the new cults of rudra, praja[pati, and brahmanaspati came into prominence. The rudra cult especially merged over time with the native linga worshipers in the east to create shiva from whence the shaivaites arose.

    Likewise the prajapathi cult influenced other native groups in india from which the vaishnavite cult arose. The brhmanaspati cult and rta would go on to lay the foundations for the belief in Brahman and later on the creator deity brahma and karma.

    In fact the vedic notion of death was this. When people die they are judged for their sins and those deemed not worthy go into the realm of yama. Basically souls compete among each other to reach dyulok or the highest abode the home of dyaus pitar where they achieve eternal liberation and moksha. Warriors were given a very special place because they would when dying go directly to the hall of heroes in indras court akin to valhalla of the germanic belief where they would have enjoyments and so forth.

    This is what happened. So it was a migration that started as a war between two groups fighting for supremacy after one group migrated before the other and the other group arrived at a later time, that shook the region and later once the wars were ended a peaceful migration occurred into the indian subcontinent proper(past the sindhi area).

    Also dravidians are not the natives of the subcontinent. The tribal groups are thiose descended from austoasiatic I believe. The dravidians like the vedic people were also migrators or invaders except they arrived much earlier.

    Also the caste system has not been in the rig veda whose society was akin to its indo european and iranian counterparts built around the 4 job types. In fact in the rigveda one poet is said that he was a bard, his father a physician, and so forth. In fact in the rig veda it was encouraged to marry those furthest away from you. It was only later on with the development of the guild system and so forth that the caste system as we know it arose. Also the purusha suktam itself is considered a much later addition and in the original rigveda text their were three not four sins. There was no sin that said one couldn’t kill brahmins. There were only three.

  27. Robert Lindsay

    Hey Idiot Lindsay get your data right..
    You cannot isolate certain verses out of context and support your idiocy.
    Just like the terrorists understanding of the Holy Qur`an, they apply them out of context.
    Read David Frawley`s and Michel Danino`s evidences against the invasion theory. Google it and you`ll find heck a lot of em..
    For example:
    http://www.archaeologyonline.net/artifacts/horse-debate.html

    Grow up man..

    • There was so an Aryan movement into India, you anti-scientific Hindu.

      PS you are banned.

      • Somebody

        If he supports Aryan Invasion Theory then HE is Right and when he supports true theory he is wrong.

        You ignorance is clearly reflected on your comment.

        Please for god’s sake don’t talk about this people who come to India and develop ISKCON temples and earning huge profits and making India poor and making their nation full of wealth.

        LOOK AT US .
        WE DON,T TALK ABOUT OUR OWN HISTORIANS BUT ALSO MANY OTHER FOREIGN HISTORIANS.
        UNLIKE YOU WHO USE THEIR OWN KEY TO LOCK OTHERS DOOR.

      • Somebody

        ” There was so an Aryan movement into India “- you don’t defend me ,you simply reject me.

        GIve me the proof how can you say this just like other lindsay who gave evidence.

      • Vikram

        Did your forefathers knew the word ”ARYA” before Max-Mullar? If you are so much interested in history, you should know. There is no reference to Aryan word in Greek/Latin or any other language. In Sanskrit Arya is Noble and been used in Indian for at least 5000 years. So for heaven’s sake stop calling Aryan name to your theories. Come up with some other word. No such tribe like Aryan existed. Your forefathers dreamed about that and gave a theory to erase your shameful or not so glorious past.

  28. KIck the Robert's Ass

    Guys it is foolish to speak any thing about our own history, cuz this swine Robert Lindsay will make his own grunt.
    We can meet some more Roberts atound the world. Half knowledge is bad thing you damn foolish White pig.

      • narut00

        robert that man doesn’t deserve the name hindu,such low morals,hindutvas aren’t hindus,they are indian nationalists,each one deserve the name of indian nationalist instead of hindu
        india is one of the few countries in the world who have such an original religion,because that circumstances many indian nationalists mix heavily the secular pride for their country with the hindu religion,because hinduism to them is just a symbol of cultural indian heritage,they don’t take pride on hinduism for the spirituality,is because its indianness,so that dismis them as hindus
        other nationalists without an orignal religion take pride in others aspects of their culture
        i firmly believe hinduism in its core is good,even the “horse sacrifice” wasn’t that horrific,the necrophilia part wasn’t for the necrophilia perse,it wasn’t to add a new level of perversion,it was for the protection of the queen since an alive horse could have attacked her
        a true hindu,even an ignorant one,would carefully control their speech according to the principles of being a good person in the upanishad,in order to reach brahman
        they should be aware that if they don’t do it,they will reborn again and suffer (but not to a certain caste according to the upanishads,just reborn here again)

        • Shazam

          “i firmly believe hinduism in its core is good,even the “horse sacrifice” wasn’t that horrific,the necrophilia part wasn’t for the necrophilia perse,it wasn’t to add a new level of perversion,it was for the protection of the queen since an alive horse could have attacked her”

          You, narutoo, are part of the problem, for defending such perverse bullshit. Having sex with a dead horse is bestial necrophilia. There is nothing good or spiritual about it. The Sruti or Vedas which you deem to be holy and eternal is full of such wicked nonsense. There is nothing divine or eternally true about ritual sacrifices to fictitious gods.

        • narut00

          even that fact is not that bad
          once the horse died,the sexual act took place immediately,so he was still warm
          however why to worry about it? in most countries kings and queens don’t exist anymore
          there is no way a normal hindu would practice it anyway
          you need to open your mind,the problem is the people with muslim background are so close minded about sexuality
          bestial necrophilia? leave the bestial part,which by itself is not immoral
          however i agree necrophilia is disgusting,but since the animal was recently dead,he didn’t stink or he wasn’t full of bacterias

        • Rahul

          as much as it is Quran or whatever you towelhead Shazam

  29. none

    The indus civilization was in clear decline before the aryans arrived. There is considerable evidence for drought in the southern indus region, on the coast where the most important areas where, which could have caused massive warfare and/or other problems. The aryans, i don’t know how large their population was, but they may of finished them off or came across the few remnants of the indus people

  30. Somebody

    I bet you ROBERT.

    If you are true man then give me some scientific evidence.
    I know you will not get because scientific knowledge don’t support any of this theory.

    No doubt that even the rigveda itself made it clear that that the wars between Aryans and Dasyus, were battles between powers of light and darkness, that the word “Arya” was plainly used in the Veda to describe not a racial group, but a quality of being and a culture, a dedication to the truth and readiness to fight for it – all this was simply brushed aside, and whole edifice was promptly erected on these non-existent foundations.

  31. Somebody

    Max Muller try to push the dates back and claim the dates of veda as ” Imaginary ” in his several books.

    There is no doubt that poor Max Muller could not understand the dates.

    Therefore,He push the dates back of many things.

    For example:-
    Aryabhatta was born on 2700 BCE and 476 AD.

    GO HERE FOR THE PROOF:-
    http://bouddhiksampada.org/downloads/Actual%20Date%20of%20Aryabhatta%20BBS%20(new).pdf

    Thus, in this sentence of 3-10 loka of ryabha yam, it is proved absolutely that
    a bhi is the correct word and not a i , grammatically and syntactically. Thus, 2764 B.C.E.
    is the date of a ryabha t, as per grammatical and syntactical analysis of the tenth s loka of
    Ka lakriy ap adha (3rdAdhy ya ) of a ryabha ttiyam.

  32. Somebody

    Just google it or you will not find that link of ARyabhatta’s true date because of error.

  33. Mohit

    ///////////////you are an asshole, robert!

  34. I am a hindu

    Let’s have a good discussion about this Aryan invasion theory OK Robert, or is that too much to ask of you?
    please answer me these questions-
    1.The highly developed architecture of IVC proves that its inhabitants were civilized, because they made sewage system that would be the envy of 17th century Europe. so how such a civilized people don’t have any literary works?
    2. The Vedas are vast and one of the best literary works of ancient works so how come they don’t have any architecture associated with them? If they had then why isn’t it given in the Vedas? (if it’s given please quote the exact verse of Rig Vedas which says so)
    3. If India was a new land to them then why the rivers native to india sacred to the aryans?

    • Sorry guy, I am done debating this stuff with you folks. This theory is accepted by all sane and educated people everywhere on Earth. The only people who don’t accept it are Hindu morons from India. The debate was settled a long time ago. Now we are just decorating around the edges.

      • I am a hindu

        If the theory is accepted worldwide and is a fact now why can’t you answer these simple questions? If you can’t answer them just tell it directly.

        • I have already answered all of these endless and insipid questions that the retarded Hindus keep coming up with. Hindus are truly pitiful human beings. When all human beings on Earth live in the world of science, retarded Hindus still live in the world of the flat Earth. Hindus are simply one of the most viciously and ferociously anti-scientific people on Earth.

        • Vikram

          This shows your knowledge. People were hanged to death till 13th century if they spoke against Christianity. Hindu were leaders of science till 8th-9th century. Have you every heard of Golden age (Gupta period). Or your knowledge is limited to Aryan invasion theory which makes you feel proud and center of the whole world and covers your shameful & barbaric past.

  35. Dhanush

    Robert, you r slug head, typical European. who have ancestors who have done nothing else but robbery. First know about your history, number/names of your fathers then comment. n moreover u r not eligible for talking about us. We are noble people. Not u. look at ur history. SOB

  36. LOL

    Hey Robert! After reading your awesomely written article but do you know that in Lothal sacrifice centers have been found which corresponds to the vedic yajnas? Wow really surprising isn’t it!
    The great bath of mohenjodaro also makes sense because it was a center of ritualistic bathing which also makes sense because later hindus also do that.
    The battle of ten kings mention a dynasty of the oldest Aryan people called turvashas who lived south east of the saraswati culture which place is now bihar Bengal and orrisa.
    I can provide much more evidence so support my claim that ancient India was vedic before the so called “Aryan invasion” but seeing your replies to other comments I can see that your scientific attitude is worse than that of those “Hindus” whom are you often calling dogs.
    Peace.

    • Yeah sure thing, anti-scientific Hindu, whatever. Carry on then over there in your glorious Bharat.

      • LOL

        I think I have made it clear then, logic wins, your mindless blabbering and loathsome replies and insults make it clear then that you are not a real scholar at all, we generally find a lot of you people in this world. If you have time to maintain such a big blog I think you have time to reply me with scholarly evidence not just stupid ignorant racist comment.
        By the way the battle of ten kings was a major event mentioned in the rigveda so I cannot digest how you can call it unscientific.

  37. Vin Chauhun

    Well I’m sure this link would get folks all heated and excited…lol http://www.archaeologyonline.net/artifacts/scientific-verif-vedas.html

  38. Aryans did not invade Indus Valley rather they migrated as presently, people migrate to developed country for better life. And Sanskrit was developed by Dravidian and Aryan together. Only overseas trade with Mesopotamia, Egypt, Persia brought slave or untouchable culture. Sudra was economic performing division as Brahmin and kshatriya

  39. Joe Wang

    Look there are absolutely no evidence whatsoever to support the Aryan Invasion theory. Why are you wasting so much time for this ridiculous nonsense. And about the caste system, genetic evidence do not support that the Aryans have introduced it. A sudra from Himachal Pradesh is less indigenous than a Brahmin from Tamil Nadu. Anyways, I am amazed to see that people somehow tries so hard to find reference of this Aryan nonsense in the Rig Veda. There are far more evidence of the Indus valley civilization being referred by the Rig Veda. Even the Shiva Lingam is in the common house of these ancient people. I don’t know about you, but don’t you think that the pashupati seal of a man in meditating beside a cow and a tiger, suggesting it might be Shiva himself? I have a lot of Indian friends, and frankly they might not be that religious, but they are proud about their heritage. So is that your problem? If so, are they some sort of Hindutava ratbags? I don’t think so.

      • Manny

        Assuming its true..the Aryan Europeans ought to follow Sanatna Dharma instead of the shit middle eastern religion of christianity.

        😛

        • Shui Man

          Ask INDIAN how SANSKRIT got into INDIA if Aryan Invasion is false? Sanskrit is EUROPEAN language family, so how did INDIAN speak it hmmmmmmmmm? Aryan Invasion is TRUE.

        • Manny

          You mean like how the Japanese language and script went from Japan to China?

        • Shui Man

          Actually Japanese language is similar to Korean verbally and also has some influence from the Jomon period. The Japanese language is unique in many ways in comparison to other Asiatic languages. The Aryan Invasion theory is mainstream, but Hindu like you will try to refute it because you desperately want to have a history of your own.

        • Priyamvada Jain

          “Assuming its true..the Aryan Europeans ought to follow Sanatna Dharma instead of the shit middle eastern religion of christianity.”

          Most of the Europeans I know ARE following SD, no thanks to you. What are you doing to preach SD in Pardesh, Manny? When was the last time you held a sat-sanga in your home and invited non-desis?

      • WRONG Lindsay, its a periodic migration that lasted for Millenia, beginning in the Neolithic when the Proto Indo Europeans were first migrating out of Anatolia into the Bactria/Mehrgarh region. Invasion means a conquest. At any rate there was a migration but that started before the Bronze Age which means that the Aryan Invasion Theory does not place the migrations in the proper time frame. If it were true there would be Kurgans and Andronovan timber frame burials in India, which there are not. Aryan fire altars and the triple horned god Apam Napat have been found in the Mature Harappan period. Chariot miniatures have come up as well

      • Venkat

        The recent discovery of the dried-up Saraswati River further negates the Aryan invasion theory. Satellite photography from outer space shows the existence of a dried-up river bed in Northern India. The archeological evidence indicates that the river dried up completely about 1900 B.C., much before 1,500 B.C., the date ascribed to Aryan invasions. Saraswati is mentioned numerous times in the Vedic scriptures of the Aryans, indicating that these people lived in India during very ancient times.

        Recent DNA evidence further negates the Aryan invasion theory. Advances in genetics make it possible to show ancient migrations. It is generally accepted that modern man arose in East Africa about 200,000 years ago. From there, they spread to India about 90,000 years ago taking the southern route to Yemen, Sindh and the Indus region. In India they multiplied and spread to other parts of Asia and Europe.

        Vedic and late Vedic texts also contain interesting astronomical lore. The Vedic calendar was based upon astronomical sightings of the equinoxes and solstices. Such texts as ‘Vedanga Jyotish’ speak of a time when the vernal equinox was in the middle of the Nakshtra Aslesha (or about 23 degrees 20 minutes Cancer). This gives a date of 1300 BC. The ‘Yajur Veda’ and ‘Atharva Veda’ speak of the vernal equinox in the Krittikas (Pleiades; early Taurus) and the summer solstice (ayana) in Magha (early Leo). This gives a date about 2400 BC.

        Yet earlier eras are mentioned, but these two have numerous references to substantiate them. They prove that the Vedic culture existed at these periods and already had a sophisticated system of astronomy. Such references were merely ignored or pronounced unintelligible by Western scholars because they yielded too early a date for the ‘Vedas’ than what they presumed, not because such references did not exist.

        India and Vedas get credit for most of the following :

        Articles on Indian Mathematics :

        http://www-history.mcs.st-and.ac.uk/Indexes/Indians.html

        Google Vedas and planets, Google Contribution of Vedas to science…Indian Discoveries…and you will see who was saying earth is flat.

  40. Manny

    The Rig Veda in its antiquity is so sophisticated in its honesty and intellectualism . Compared with this, the Abrahamic theology of christianity and Islam is pure shit.

    Not sure whey Euopeans converted the shit religion of christianity.

    I mean look at this…WOW! Amazing! What a super duper sophisticated people these Brahmins are..eh! 😛

    GENESIS of the RIG VEDA.

    HYMN CXXIX. Creation.

    1. THEN was not non-existent nor existent: there was no realm of air, no sky beyond it. What covered in, and where? and what gave shelter? Was water there, unfathomed depth of water?
    2 Death was not then, nor was there aught immortal: no sign was there, the day’s and night’s divider. That One Thing, breathless, breathed by its own nature: apart from it was nothing whatsoever.
    3 Darkness there was: at first concealed in darkness this All was indiscriminated chaos. All that existed then was void and form less: by the great power of Warmth was born that Unit.
    4 Thereafter rose Desire in the beginning, Desire, the primal seed and germ of Spirit. Sages who searched with their heart’s thought discovered the existent’s kinship in the non-existent.
    5 Transversely was their severing line extended: what was above it then, and what below it? There were begetters, there were mighty forces, free action here and energy up yonder
    6 Who verily knows and who can here declare it, whence it was born and whence comes this creation?
    The Gods are later than this world’s production. Who knows then whence it first came into being?
    7 He, the first origin of this creation, whether he formed it all or did not form it, Whose eye controls this world in highest heaven, he verily knows it, or perhaps he knows not.

    • Manny

      No wonder they are called Upper Castes! and no wonder they look down on white people as untouchables.

      I can totally relate! Yeah who can blame them. 😛

    • The Genesis account gave rise to the protestant work ethic which emphasizes man’s devotion to labour imitating God’s labour in creating the universe. This work ethic is what makes the US and Canada great nations.

      What did the Hymn of creation give rise to? Prove to us once and for all that your superiority is based on something other than hot air.

      • Manny

        1) Things like god and the question of why we are here are dealt with honesty and skepticism …almost 5000 years ago by the Hindus, mean honesty is the first important virtue and the Hindu civilization valued such things.

        2) while the goat herding culture from the gutters of middle east started their musings on god with dishonesty and lies… and childish things like Sacrifice to end all sacrifice and what not crap. So christian civilization and its jealous god are born with character flaw.

        Even Islam do not have the kind of eviI trail like the christians..particularly the protestant christians culture.. is an abomination and a viIe sin against humanity/

        And the US is a great nation.. I agree but .. Canada is a shit nation. too many liberal leftists and racist nation. I have not experienced racism in the US, in my two short visits I have experienced racism in Canada.. And if you go Toronto the people live in different racial and nationality ghettos. But the biggest lie a shameless Chanuk would spout is how Canadians are liberals and what not.. They are just frauds.

        • Monkey D. Luffy

          Caste was the reason Hinduism was about to fail in India and Guyana, Anti caste Hindu groups saved Hinduism, there is a natural tendency to reject caste, in India The Bhakti movement disregarded the rigidities of the caste system ,The popularity of the movement increased during the 15th and 16th centuries because of the people’s dissatisfaction of their old religion, the caste system and the superiority of the Brahmins. The people wanted a religion which could satisfy both their reason and emotions, thanks to caste Islam conquered the heart and mind of Pakistan, it would have happened in all India, if not for the anti caste Bhakti movement.
          In Guyana ,During the indenture period, the Indian caste system broke down. Hinduism was redefined, and caste-distinguishing practices were eliminated. Christian missionaries attempted to convert Indians during the indenture period, beginning in 1852, but met with little success. The missionaries blamed the Brahmins for their failure: the Brahmins began administering spiritual rites to all Hindus regardless of caste once the Christian missionaries started proselytizing in the villages, hastening the breakdown of the caste system. After the 1930s, Hindu conversions to Christianity slowed because the status of Hinduism improved and the discrimination against Hindus diminished.

        • Manny

          What you’ve described up there is pop Hindu spirituality that is packaged for mass consumption. It is the Hinduism where (to quote Ralph Dumain) the “original mythic, superstitious, and social content [is]conveniently downplayed or metaphoricized into oblivion…”

          And besides, Christianity’s contributions to human civilization have abstract applications and are therefore accessible to even non Christians. For example, one doesn’t have to be Christian to internalize the positive attitude towards labour and work (although it helps). So even non white/Christian immigrants to North America can pursue employment and remain employed because contributing to society via labour is intrinsically good.

          So again I ask you (again): What did the creation Hymn above contribute to world civilization? Did it articulate a work ethic? Did it articulate a philosophy predicated on factual beliefs that are universally accessible to even non Hindus and non Indians? And if so, can you show me the application of said philosophy amidst the filth and chaos of India?

          PS
          in my two short visits I have experienced racism in Canada..

          Details please? Did the Canucks rudely reject your narrative of the Hindus who invented the internet in 4000BC? (as cataloged by the Hindutva Journal for Hindutva studies, peer reviewed by…other Hindutvadis I guess)

        • Manny

          Canada.. When I visited the Foreign students office at York University for my MBA, he was so racist towards me,, I wish I had a video camera.. I could have recorded the conversation and put it on you tube.

        • I graduated from York University. I had no problems there. And if you hate whites and Christianity so much, why don’t you go back to India?

        • Manny

          I am here to help the heathens and save them from christ and the evil Babel shit.

          Its my Hindu manifest destiny… its proally somewhere in the smrithi I am sure.. And as a Hindu I HAVE to follow the smrithi to be a good Hindu.. so I am afraid you can’t blame me for what I do… I am just following my holy scriptures just like all the Islamists and evangelical aholes have to follow their god.

        • Priyamvada Jain

          Manny, “I am here to help the heathens and save them from christ and the evil Babel shit. Its my Hindu manifest destiny”

          Do you help them? Or are you just being facetious. I’ve heard several Indians say this but the same ones who have said it don’t even mix with non-Indians here, and when they do, the dealings are short and usually about something practical like money.

          I’ve yet to see an Indian who is claiming that he is here to “help” actually help anyone at all. I don’t see them holding sat-sangas in their homes and inviting non-Hindus. I don’t see them inviting non-Hindus to mandirs for utsavs like Shri Krishna Janmashtami (which by the way, is tomorrow!). I don’t see them doing any outreach whatsoever.

          Yes, there are Indians who DO do that, such as myself. But we usually don’t go around saying we are here to “help”.

          HAPPY SHRI KRISHNA JANMASHTAMI EVERYONE!!!!!

      • Manny

        And you know why the Chanuks are such liberals and peaceniks? Cause they have the US to cover their arse and they don’t have China or Al Queda Islam in their neighborhood so they spout idiotic nonsense to countries like India about they going nuclear.

        There is something evil about these Chanuks… must be the shit proterstant christian cultural influence

      • Manny

        Here is the ethics of the christian god Ha Ha

        • Manny

          In Hinduism

          TRUTH = God. Valuing truth is the equivalent of homage to God

          In christianity its

          god = Truth. Superstition nonsense become truth. that’s why even today the protestant ethics is about corrupting science and discovery with their creationism and other pollution in society. An immoral society to keep lying and lying and spreading more lies… a people of a no good race.

          All good people of this world need to rise up to destroy the evil protestant chrstiainity from the face of this earth. 🙂

      • Manny

        The greatest contribution Hinduism has done is make Hindus a moral people..They do not have this kind of laundry list of eviI. In its 5000 years history Hindus did not kill one another over difference of culture or faith.

        Its only when the Persian aholes landed in India they brought their murderous culture and Islamic iconoclasm of destroying other peoples place of worship.

        – Inquisiti0n in Spain and Goa
        – C_rusades
        – Ethn!c cIeansing of American Indians
        – SIavery
        – Iynchings
        – The Ant! Chinese league of the Americas
        – Jim Cr0we
        – The HoI0caust. Read the ant!semit!Ic rantings of Martin Iuther the founder of the Protestant movement that was the impetus for the HoIocaust.
        – Separate churches for bIacks and whites in the bible belt.
        – BI00d Iibel. Read in Wikipedia about this.. OMG! What eviI!
        – Rwwanda ethn!c CIeansing
        – Ant! G _ay kiIIings in African countries like Uganda on the instigation of the Southern Bapt!st EvangeIicals
        – Doctrine of Discovery. Can’t make this shit up. I mean seriously

  41. Priyamvada Jain

    Robert, there are no “rig vedas” (plural). The Rig Veda is one veda (singular). There are 4 vedas.

    1. Atharva
    2. Sama
    3. Yajur
    4. Rig

  42. Shui Man

    Indians and Chinese do not get along, I am Chinese and we worship white ppl and we hate Japanese and Taiwanese and escepcially black sub saharan and indians. To us blacks and indians are NIGGERS, we hate them like the Abos on Australia. Indians have even smaller size penis than the Chinese, and we may have small penis as Chinese but we have 5,000 years of civilization Shang Zhou Qin Han Song Yuan Manchu Dynasties, but India has shitty IVC and Hinduism with Rig Vedas! Do you know than Hindu God Brahma fuck his daughter without her consent, and his twin brother sons fuck each other gay sex. Brahma also said that a virgin can lose virginity and then regain virginity by having sex with a Brahmin and drinking his juices. Hinduism is truly disgusting, and Hindus in Punjabi towns exploit Punjabi microcephalic children to have them force begging and earn money off of it while watching TV on their fat lazy asses. Hindus are truly disgusting, and Rig Vedas are psuedoscience bullshit. I as a Chinese deeply hate Indians and Hindus and the Romani Gypsies who come from Hindus. They are NIGGERS to me. Blacks are also disgusting. The greatest peoples on earth are white people, then chinese is second, and japanese korean and arab is third. Indian and black is last.

    • Manny

      Shui Man

      You will fit within the Indian “sicular” Hindu liberl left crowd…if you continue speaking like tha,t you could get elected as India’s Prime Minister… or at least as chief minister for Kerala or West Bengal.

      Are you sure you are not a Malayali or a Bengali pretending to be Chinese?

    • Manny

      Shui Man,

      Instead of eating dogs, y’all need to learn from them

      • Richie

        don’t feed the troll Manny.

        • Shui Man

          Yes, my people eat dogs, so that is a problem for us. The Chinese are not superior to whites, whites are superior to Chinese. And eating dogs is bad. But Hindus kill dogs, abuse them, torture them, worse than eating a dog, dont you think Manny?

    • Monkey D. Luffy

      I do feel this is a troll ,but anyways i want to reply, dude, Brahma is not a god in Hinduism, he is a Deva, a celestial being, in fact they are more like angels, and even in Christianity angels can make mistakes ( the devil used to be an angel in fact) ,the true God of the Hindus is Brahman (or Vishnu or Shiva or Shakti depending in the Hindu sect )

      • Shui Man

        Monkey, the truth is HINDUISM is NOT a religion, it is a coglomeration of multiple tribal and clannic religions, and practices. The British unified all these isolate Indian religion and dubbed it HINDUISM. There is a great YouTube commenter named Sirf Punjabi Jatt that exposes Hinduism and Indians. It is regardless who Brahma is, or Shiva, Krishna, Vishnu, etc. The point is that Hinduism was never a religion, and also it is not an Indian religion, but the product of British colonialism.

        • Monkey D. Luffy

          Hinduism wasn’t born as an organized religion, because the Vedas says that god is called by different people different names, that means Hindus always believed the god of other people was the same as their god, their Brahman was the same as Jesus, so it wasn’t necessary to be called Hinduism or Hindu, isn’t it? Hinduism in theory can absorb and accept every minor god because the core of the religion, the Vedas, says it, Hindus always believed in Karma or Dharma ,core beliefs.

        • Shui Man

          Monkey, are you high caste? You are a Brahmin, aren’t you. That is why you are supporting Hinduism. Imagine how miserable you and your fellow Brahmins make life for the untouchables, you guys defend this lifestyle?

          The point I was trying to make previously is that Hinduism was NEVER a religion to begin with, so it can’t ABSORB smaller religions. Hinduism is like the NATO alliance; an illusion and very fragile at that. Hindu Indians have no morals or value of human life, they are survivalistic and materialistic. 21st Century caveman mentality, a type of evil Neanderthalism. Unlike black Africans, who are aggressive and impulsive, Hindus are evil at the core of their nature.

        • Shui Man

          Also, you must watch One Piece. Japanese animation is one of the few aspects of Japanese culture that I like. I love One Piece, I watched all 609 episodes of it. By the way Monkey, have you ever heard of a anime called Shingeki No Kyojin(attack on titan)?

        • JuvenBachan

          Shui Man , You are the evil and degraded one. Not the Hindus. Your Mao killed 60 millions people recently. And your Japs were the first to taste atomic power. So who is more evil.

    • bochukumar

      Chinese is surely the last even after the nigger. Yellow monkeys are the scum of the earth

    • neo@neo.com

      chinese is second, and japanese korean

      can you really tell the difference? all look the same

    • Vikram

      Boss with great respect to you..no one in the world will believe that Chinese have bigger Penis than Indians. Please give me a break.

    • Vikram

      Your categorization of White as supreme, followed by Chinese… proves that you are just other scumbag white supremacist. This proves how your forefathers divided Asia and looted. If anything, they were clever like Fox..but not anywhere near to Great Asian civilizations. Because of their loot, you today think that white is good. Before them, they were worse than niggers. Dirty looking, hunting and bunch of uncivilized lots, all over the europe. Indian kings used to enslave white uncivilized Europeans at one point of time. Indian textbooks dont even mention once about any cultural activity in Europe.

    • Rahul

      hahahah shuiman creature chinese dont even have properly formed face they gook nerdy faces and we dont even touch them we look down on them,, blacks are wayyyyyyyyyyyy better than snake, cockroach, lizard, dog eating chinese.. you will always be looked down

  43. Priyamvada Jain

    We Indians do not even read the Rig Veda so its irrelevant from whence it came.
    We read, or hear the oral traditions of, the Puranas, Itihasas, Agamas and Upanishads as well as other literature or oral traditions that are germane to whatever sect or tradition we may belong to.
    We take inspiration from the living sadhus in our very own cities, towns, villages, and even in our very own families, that we can access in the here and now, moreso than any ancient or medieval sadhu and certainly more so than any Vedic rishi or reciter.

    There is an extremely small minority of people who continue the tradition of Rig Veda recitation. I suppose some of them know the meanings of what they are reciting and some of them don’t.

    For the rest of us, the Rig Veda has no significance at all.

    • Shui Man

      Caste is wrong. I am a racist and even I believe caste is wrong. I even oppose slavery, yet I am racist. Indians are sick ppl.

      • Manny

        I doubt you are Chinese.. you sound more like a sickular Hindu jerk.

        I am a Hindu and since my holy scripture The smrithies that I have to follow or my jealous God would smite me and send me to hell for ever. So I am afraid I cannot not follow my jealous God/

        So I HAVE to believe in the Caste system.

        Don’t blame me I am not responsible since I have a right to follow my religion. Mmmmmkkkk

        Also I the smrithies says I have to go and kill non Hindu infidels.

        Don’t blame me if I go nuts with that one too..

        Where are the liberals when I need them…

        • Priyamvada Jain

          ” in 50 yrs or so Hindus will be dead by their own practices you know like filth, famine, disease, female infanticide, stupidity. Too bad they’re too dumb to figure it out. I’m sure Nirvana will be a blast!”

          In India filth, disease, infanticide, crime, sexism and certainly not rape or sexual harrasement are limited to Hindus. Also just FYI, Hindus generally don’t speak of “nirvana” as such.

          India has problems. Religion of any sort, Hindu or non-Hindu, won’t solve them.

        • Manny

          “Naw, it definitely says to let Hindu children starve & live in their own filth.’

          BeattleJuice, you sure the Smrithies doesn’t say that Hindus should go and kill infidels?

          To be honest I have never read the smrithies but I have heard a lot about what the Smrithie says from chrsitians, Islamist, lefties and you know . from .the general anti Hindu Hindus.. I have to take you’lls word on what it says… and if it says “we have to starve our children” then I guess to be a good Hindu I would have to follow that the tee…after all the Smrithies are the literal word of our Lord and Savior who sent his only begotten son Krishna for our sins.

          I mean your babel condoned slavery and y’all enslaved and lynched black people. So we Hindus are entitled to follow the inerrant word of our God.

        • Sendil

          Ya beatrix bitch whats that got to do with your beloved islam? you dont ever open your fucking mouth about how islam treats women…

      • Vikram

        LOL! You oppose Salvery! After sucking blood of millions of Slave for over 200 years which brought wealth to you and today enjoying luxury of west?
        No Cast is not wrong and not same as slavery. It originated as very healthy practise in early vedic period. It was called Varan (Means choose) system. Every individual was free to choose their occupation and hence caste. However as corruption is human nature it was restricted to within family and became more rigid. There were revolts against Caste system within Hindu society (Notably Buddha , Mahavir Jain etc)
        Later more than religious demarkation it became social divide.
        But some people like you conveniently blame Hindu religon for Caste system, but will be afraid to blame Christianity for Slavery, when hundreds of thousands of Slaves were forcibly converted and subsequently treated even by church (leaving white social structure) as third grade members.
        I doubt what are your views on Church and Christian involvement in Slavery.

  44. mixedraced

    Where is Shui Man posting from.

    • Sanju

      the fool is probably an fucked up anti-india chinese embracing northeast indian

    • Sujoy

      This shuiman is probably from one of his ra-ra benighted land of crooks china

    • Manny

      He must be posting from Kerala or Calcutta or JNU N.Delhi

      He sounds more like a lefi cognress or a Dravidian desi ahole

    • Monkey D. Luffy

      I also wanted to know where Shui Man was posting from, is weird we weren’t informed this time, when normally we are when someone asks it.

        • Manny

          Interesting..I had my doubts if he was even Chinese.

          Proally a Nazi Kraut! 😛

        • Manny

          ” I am Chinese and we worship white ppl ”

          That should have been a give away/ . I am not sure if any Chinese would even say that.. Ha Ha! 😛

        • Manny

          Could I now go back and delete all the shit I said about the poor Chinese? 😛

        • Monkey D. Luffy

          Wow, though i hope is accurate : S ,not sure, i remenber when former commenter Jaipal ,was located first in Uzbekistan and later in Canada, 2 different continents.

        • neo@neo.com

          Robert Lindsay
          can you use your knowledge of linguistics to determine whether Shui Man
          is a german national pretending to be chinese or a chinese living in Southern German, Bavaria like he claims to be?

          i say “linguistics” b/c there’s obvious differences in spoken language and accent between germans indians and chinese who speak english as a second language

        • sree

          Shui man must typically be a Dalit national who like commenter India land of rapes must have a deep hatred for India and Hinduism as a whole. When you read his posts its typical of loads of bull shit that used where to swear brahmans. I wouldn’t buy too much about his location at Bavaria as it is very easy to pretend to be anyone from anywhere these days. Also his love for whites is a ploy to mask his identity and just spam around. he aint a white supremacist. hes a lowlife

  45. Sanjay

    shuiman You chinese bastards are always inferior to us lizard eater. you fucking snake eater are always looked down by us you dont ytalk about our rih culture and traditions assole. Here we indians look down on you , you dont look down on u . Your language is a shit and you are full of shit. when you eat raw lizards snakes, cockraoches, earthworms, rats you dont comment that we are inferior you crack head. You guys and women got a freaking aboriginal faces with small penis and we loo down on you as lowlives. You produce all fake items with zero creativity and have a body shop for workers treating them like dogs . Even stray pigs look nicer than your fuckin faces. None of your fucking movies or television programs have any followers as it has aboriginal fucking creatures in it.

  46. mixedraced

    How could a nomadic people have written language. Was their writing system developed after they first settled the Indus valley or after. If the latter, how long did the transition to wide-scale use of a written language take.

  47. mixedraced

    “or before” not:- or after

  48. mixedraced

    “if the former” not:- if the latter

  49. Mr Lindsay, what degree qualifications do you have? Did you even graduate high school? Mr Lindsay the Rig Veda is a single Veda, not Vedas. Second of all the Mittani treaty of 1400 BC clearly and SOUNDLY establishes the prominence of Indo Aryan deities of the Rig Veda before 1300 BC. Not to mention the strong associations of the BMAC and the double headed eagle deity(also in Mittani on a relief) with the Aryan civilization and Arkaim from 4000 BC, yeah that’s right I said 4000BC, NOT 1700 BC like you unmanly, beardless, yeah I know you have no beard, effeminate European eunuchs try to claim. Why don’t you Europeans stop producing so much estrogen and start producing some testosterone like real men. It’s making you crazy. The truth is that you don’t understand the truly old Aryan establishment in Asia. Cities like Lothal and Kalibangan have yielded fire altars and other Indus Valley sites have yielded horse bones as old as 2450 BC. This is genetically proven so do not give me your wild donkey or onager theories which are not founded. Second of all, how does an unscientific person like you assert the Dravidian nature of the Indus Valley civilization when the only EVIDENCE TO BACK THAT UP IS THE BRAHUI LANGUAGE in Balochistan and even that is not good science because the language came there as a result of a migration after 100.

    • WRONG. I am banning you. Go back to your glorious Bharat.

    • Vikram

      People like Lindsay get their version of knowledge at street talks of white supremacists over beer. You can compare them with village folks in Hindu India. Even village folks are smarter than him in India. Despite all modern world’s scientific inventions happening in west, socially & spiritually they are retarded lot.

    • I came across a blog, can’t remember where, but it says the Indo Iranians were in India much earlier, and that the so-called Aryan branch was just a section of the population that moved out to the adjoining sapta-sindu—kinda like what the Hebrews did when they broke away from their Canaanite kin.

  50. ITS WHITE PEOPLE AND THEY ARE TRYING TO TAKE CREDIT FOR ARYAN CIVILIZATION ONCE AGAIN. ARKAIM IS ARYAN NOT WHITE. IT IS OLDER THAN THE INDUS VALLEY CIVILIZATION

    • Exactly Danny Danielson. People, and sub human yellow monkeys like Feng Shui Man have the mistaken believe the Aryans were white.

      • guerrer0

        You sure are dumb, the whole world is crazy about the yellow color, most men prefer blonde women ( blonde is yellow color ) me too, and by the way I also like blonde men, because that color looks very good, likewise in Asia the light skin is view as attractive, but they like the yellow type of skin, not excessively pale like White, in fact many Whites tan their skin to have an olive color that is closer to yellow, and White color in hair is a sign of being old, so you lost.

  51. Rig Veda says that the Earth is a sphere

  52. James, TAKE BACK WHAT YOU SAID, YOU DISGRACEFUL LIAR. THE ARYANs worshipped Varuna and Indra is Varuna’s peon and servant. Indra even uses a bolt that is the child of Mitra. Take alook at the hymns in the Rig Veda because Indra is an extremely weak god who got his jaws smashed to pieces by a Dasa called Vyamsa

  53. VARUNA IS A PERFECTLY INVINCIBLE, INFALLIBLE, AND ALL-RULING SUPREME IMPERIAL SOVEREIGN ALONG WITH HIS BROTHER MITRA. HE IS BEYOND ALL PETTY THINGS LIKE JEHOVAH, THE DEVIL, ALLAH, YAHWEH, and even the great VISHNU follows his command to the tee

    • Dave Mowers

      Varuna is Uranus of the Greeks and they represent the whole of the known universe, cosmogony, all levels between and including heaven and earth. That is why Uranus is known as, “The Man of the Heavens” because he, like Varuna and Phanes (‘Ph’ being cognate to ‘V’) are depicted or described as a male god of everything or formed of everything. Vishnu is simply the mind of god when dreaming.

      In Scandinavia he is Van.

    • Yeah, seems like you are in the right track–I came across commentaries that say Varun was the All-God 🙂

  54. Hey Shui Man, you worship white people. Well, the Aryans had a name for white people: DASYU. The Aryans smashed the Dasyus and called them mrdhavacah. I am sorry that my ancestors bitchsmacked your feeble, mortal gods.

  55. Priyamvada Jain

    The first shloka of Rg Veda reads;

    “Ana al haqq”.

    • Listen Jain. Puranic Hinduism is at its core disrespectful and evil just like Zarathustra. Don’t comment on the Rig Veda because your people don’t respect what i means

  56. whishma

    See idiot ., this is what Frawley had to say about the british and you british asskissing american’s mythological blunderous lie aryan invasion. We are native indians period you shitty pig.

    http://www.hindunet.org/hindu_history/ancient/aryan/aryan_frawley.html

  57. Anjan Mitra

    This is debate is best conducted without dragging in racist or nationalist perspectives; remember how Hitler twisted the facts to support his theory of an Aryan master race and murdered millions?
    We have historians drawing different conclusions from the same data; the conclusions are often conflicting and the debate about the Aryan ‘invasion” or ‘migration’ is far from settled. As more data emerges, we might get a clearer picture.
    What remains as a clear fact is that the Indus-Saraswati civilisation was very developed in terms of social structure and urban planning. It was an orderly society that does not seem to have been held together by military coercion, and the sheer number of settlements along the banks of both rivers indicates a frame work for mutual co-operation.
    As regards Roman civilisation, took almost another 2000 years to reach the same level of technology as regards drainage and sanitation; however, it must be said that it was only the Roman elite that enjoyed the benefit of this. The civic facilities in the Indus-Saraswati cities were not meant for a ruling class, but were available to all citizens. All the cities were planned and built on new sites or by razing earlier sites. Contrast this with ancient accounts of the unplanned urban sprawl of Rome, sewage running in the streets, garbage being dumped on passerbys……… here cannot have been any civic facilities in Europe comparable to the Indus Valley cities until the 20th century !! And to put matters in perspective, most Indian cities today would fall short.

    • There is NOT ONE SINGLE legitimate historian who is promoting the Out of India theory for Indo-European. Not even one. The only people promoting this theory are nationalists, nuts, cranks and overwhelmingly Hindus. Not one single legitimate historian doubts the Aryan Invasion theory.

      • Dave Mowers

        I question what you mean by “India?” That included Afghanistan and Pakistan prior to the British Empire. If you are saying “Aryans” did not come from the Indus Valley I agree but they did come from an area due north that stretched from the Euxine Sea (Black Sea) across the Caspian as far east as the Aral sea in what was once the southern Soviet Union.

        Caucasians are spoken of in this area as Sacae in what was once known as Scythia. The Sacae split in all four directions going into Europe, Asia Minor, Persia and Afghanistan where they were known later as Kushites. This region of the world is inhospitable to agriculture so either early Caucasians were nomadic hunters who roamed a large expanse of land or they held settlements around that area which seems to fit the later cultures we know of which arise in a ring around Mesopotamia.

        I question the root of the word “India” having any relationship to “Indra” because the Sumerian equivalent could easily be “Etin, Eden” which was in the Indus Valley and not Sumer. India could be the Sanskrit misreading of Sumerian cuneiform because ancient Sumerians wrote any direction they wanted and it is horribly confusing.

        • Huh?? The Scythians came much, much later onto the world scene…..Sumerian could have been an off-shoot of pre-Aryan cultures but that is pure guess work on my part 🙂

    • When I joined this blog I had no intention of being or saying racist things, but when a yellow dog shit like Shui Man insults Indians, I have to respond. As for Robert, well…lol….I just can’t take his racist attacks seriously–I just burst out laughing.

      I don’t get why Indians get their knickers tangled in bunch about who the Aryans were. We gave the world glorious civilizations, including the Mauryan empires, science, astronomy, etc–also the bad stuff caste, sati. But the excesses of Rome were no different.

      Besides when the Mandarin population stops increasing, the Indian population will still be increasing. By then we may resume our conquering warlike ways of the past.

  58. Chris

    this is nothing more than anti indian anti hindu nonsense there might be Aryan invasion but most of your claims are all wrong

  59. JuvenBachan

    The IE people who invaded India did come from Southern Russia bringing the horse, the chariot, the Sanskrit language, the IE religion and Gods and also the swastika symbol, the oldest symbol in the world. The Indian revisionists are trying to change all this by trying to make the Indus Civilization part of the Aryans, people who called themselves noble. One deep and telling difference between the two is that the Indus Civilization, brilliant as it was, is covered in cemeteries, whereas the IE peoples cremated their dead.

    Also, one other factor is that the Indus Script is not a language or it would have been the national language of India. The introduction of Sanskrit by the IE people overwhelmed India with its different dialects. The problem facing the Indian revisionists is that IVC being in existence for over 5000 years had enough time to make their language the national language of India but it did not happen.

    Natural earthshaking events, decline of its civilization and the spread of Sanskrit evolving into Hinduism sounded its death knell. Apparently, the Vedas does not describe the civilization for its a fact that when the IE tribes appeared in India, the IVC had vanished. One other outside factor , is that the mythological pantheon of the IVC does not have the horse or chariot. The Aryas or noble ones did.

    • Chris

      no they might have tried but indus valley didn’t influence whole of india and they did not come from Russia and indus valley civilisation were aryas there is no difference between Aryas and so called Dravidian except language and vedas is not history book but you can see knowledge and influence of indus valley civilisation but many have even said vedas may date before indus valley civilisation

  60. This for the dog eating, chopstick playing, slanty eyed Yellow monkey Shui Man. You don’t know that Aryan has got nothing to do skin color. If it is was not for the Aryans, you bow-legged midgets would not have the chariot, and you would have not learnt how to make war. We Aryans taught you about government. We gave rise to your legends. And we fucked your women to improve your gene pool.

    Hinduism may be screwed up, but we Indians certainly had a more mighty and glorious civilizations than your monotonous so called glorious grey and dull culture.

    Aryan culture recorded the war exploits and daily life of each successive generation, from India to the Europe. I hope you understood that part Mr moo-shoo pork.

    Whether it was on the Siberian steppes or Indus River, Aryan culture added to other civilizations it came into contact with, and in India’s case earlier civilizations goes back to minimum 5000bc in Meragarh, much earlier than the earliest of you monkey brain eaters.

    To me its irrelevant whether the Aryans came to India, but what give me immense pride is that my people, the Indo -Europeans taught you Sino- Tibetan baboons civilization.

    Indo-european culture is basically Aryan in nature, you can use it interchangeably. I hope you get that thru your thick monkey brain of yours.

    • guerrer0

      Why racists like you think highly of the Yellow color in the hair of White skinned people ( cough cough blonde ) but not in the skin of Asians? … they look like they are made of gold, I think it looks kind of cool, like the sun which gives us energy.

    • DMC

      BAHAHA Hey brown shite, are you depressed because an Asian man took your job? No wonder why Indians are treated badly in the Far East. This smelly curry shiteskin is talking back to his superiors and should be put where he belongs, shite and corpse filled unholy river Gay-ges! Look in the Middle East, you Indians are slaves towards rich Arabs by doing all the hard work while Arabs take the money.
      In history, there is no greater empire than the Mongol Empire and Japan was the only non-white colonial power in the world. Today Asian companies include Samsung, Sony, Lexus, etc. What famous Indian company is there? Tata? You mean that crap company that builds the world’s cheapest car? HAHAHA
      Name one thing you Indians are better than us Asians except beating up women and having sex with cows. No street in the Far East Asia has shite all over the place.

      • Valmik

        but then you take over eating weird insects, worms, bacterias, snakes, reptiles, squirrel and every single crawling creature aren’t you east man

  61. random guy who came around

    Lol,I was happy that the article cleared my confusion but then I see the comments.Stupid people coming here getting humiliated and getting bashed by rascist people for their stupidity. Like giving them a chance to rape you again and again. -______- seriously y’ll should never use internet for your stupidity and ruining the name of the religion and the country.

  62. There has been a great misinformation or misunderstanding in the past that Vedic people attacked the Indus Valley Civilisation (IVC) and destroyed it. A direct proof of this is that Rigveda only talks about destruction of stone homes whereas the IVC was a brick civilisation. This is rather logical. My translation of a few hymns of the Rigveda goes further and provides a surprising piece of information that has remained hidden till date.

    This is inherent in hymns 1.133 and 1.138 of the Rigveda. The enemies in this verse clearly lived in pit dwellings.
    So we now know that the Vedic people lived not only close to people who lived in stone homes, but also near other people who lived in sunken homes. Neither type is found at IVC.

    For complete details please read “A Horse Amongst Donkeys” ebook available at flipkart/Amazon/ibooks etc.

    • K

      So bricks and stone homes cant exist in a civilisation. Bricks were a luxury back then, so not everybody could have been able to afford brick homes. There are a lot of civilisations where diff materials were used in constructing houses.

  63. All right I am banning you.

    HAND!

  64. ColorMeSurprised

    “Everyone you just listed no doubt agrees with the Aryan Migration theory, you slimy Hindu worm.”

    Wow. Just wow. Try being a little more hateful towards the very subject you’re studying. Maybe you’ll get more publicity

  65. K

    Rig veda is a book of ‘hymns’ why the hell would it have architectural details?

  66. K

    Rig veda talks about the river sarasvati more than 70 times, and sarasvati is believed to have dried up before the so called aryans came.

  67. K

    And it talked about sarasvati as hymns were conducted on its banks.

  68. Hindu

    Still jealous of Our culture ?
    Well you can fabricate any other theory too. Btw you should also talk on if christ really existed?

  69. I have a simple theory.

    Vedic civilization didn’t even exist at the time of indus valley and indus valley doesn’t have anything to do with India or vedic civilization as Dravidian culture and languages have no relation with indus valley.

    Now where vedic civilization came from or where it developed is anyone’s guess.

    • Amul Arya(Abu Masood)

      the Indus valley civilisation is part of Vedic civilisation

      • FLYING MONKEY MAN

        Archaeology has proves Indus Valley Civilization but No Archaeology has proved of a Vedic Civilization. Its a Myth

        • Pranav

          Exactly, Vedic Civilizations and other epics are a big FAT lie..These are just feel good stories for the depraved created by the depraved. Indus Valley is 100 % true, however I doubt it was exclusively a Indian one, If those noble men were our progenitors, India wouldn’t be in this Shape.

        • Amul Arya(Abu Masood)

          indus valley is part of india it is what india become because of natural disasters,invasion india slowly became bad

        • Amul Arya(Abu Masood)

          many traces have showed influences of vedic civilisation

  70. Dharmendra

    Mr. Robert. You are very bookish. You hardly understand history. If you think Vedas were written, then Vedas long before predicted about Adam and Eve as out-caste and barbaric human you belong to.
    You hardly understand the timeline of language development Sanskrit and Prakrit were developed long before Hebrew and Greek. Its know fact and also verified by your dubious european researchers and anthropologists. Matching the timeline will verify that whether Carbon-dating is wrong or Invasion is wrong.
    The Naga stone found in India which was written in language close to prakrit says “We need to follow our 10000 years old custom of Naag Panchami Festival accordingly – By King”. Where carbon dating of Naga Stone reveals it was 3000 years old.
    You Max Muller could temper with history, but he was not as intelligent as even today’s Indians.
    Sorry to say You people are outlaw/lowly-placed according to Vedas. But, we are so generous that we still keep you by our side. Because we are taught to follow Dharma. If your ancestor did something bad by following non-Dharma, we don’t blame to their decedents (YOU).

  71. Pingback: Quora

  72. juven Bachan

    I wonder if anyone spouting the false doctrine here can tell me what was the name of India under the IVC

  73. WoW Lindsay, you are one racist bigot! I qoute:
    ‘Next to US Blacks, India must have the most retarded intellectuals on Earth.’

    You must be a real scholar (from the 19th centuary that is).

    If you knew just 10% of India’s history, the many philosophical schools it had, the first proto university (or ‘learning place’) it had, how EVERY scholar in ancient times went to India’s learning place (from Greece to China!), how Persia imitated it (which in turn later the Arabs did), you would NEVER have made that statement.

    May i also contribute by saying that the culture of the IVC still lives today in India? Seen from the jewelry style that dates back to IVC culture STILL being used/weared today (by Indian females). My i also say, India was the first with denistry, (plastic) chirgury, philosophy (yes before the Greeks dare i say it), healthcare/medical treatment (WHO declared Ayurveda the oldest medicinal system) and i can go on.

    Have respect for what the country has done for the whole world.

    Also many elements of the vedic culture has been found in the IVC, like the way the houses were built (according to vedic architecture ). There NEVER was an invasion and NO most scholars don’t say INVASION, they now say it was a peaceful transmigration. The Aryans were LESS educated/cultured and when they came to India, they adopted their ways and created a new civilization. At least, that is the current stand of view.

    Another thing, the only reason why the Aryan invasion (funny, Aryan is a sancrit word) was invented was two things:
    1. It was calculated through biblical time (not really scientific), so it could’ve never been before the great flood
    2. back then there was no archeological evidence of the vedic civilization found in India that predated CE…untill the IVC was found. That shaked things up and let scholars remodel their theories.

    Ow and ALL places mentioned in the Vedas are found in India. Even the INDUS RIVER was mentioned many times. To say there is no connection is keeping a blind eye (being biased, as they say) for what you don’t like and only accepting things that works in your point of view.

    For now, it is UNDECIDED what the homeland of PIE was and that probably will stay so. It is all THEORIES so no one is right or wrong here, just some speculations are NOW (with the current evidence) more plausible then the other.

    SO please stop the hate machine and be reasonable. More then that, see what India has produced in ancient times, from IVC culture to Vedic culture. See how in history India was always sought after for its wealth, both material and knowlegde (from the persians, Arabs to Columbus and U.K.)

    • ALL respectable linguists say that wherever the IE Homeland was, it was not in India. ALL of them also say that IE languages are not indigenous to India but instead came from the outside. And there is excellent evidence for an invasion.

      And also you are banned. Yes, your intellectuals are the stupidest on Earth, except for the Blacks of course.

      • First off, props for the lightning fast reply. Second of, why call me a jerk? My post is mainly objective as i tried to save my own opinion about it.

        Also did you read what i said? Invasion is the wrong word, mainly because it is know that the IVC culture never died out but became the Gangar culture (red and grey culture or something in that direction). I never disasproved (nor aproved) of the theory that people from outside of India came in to India and collided with the excisting culture (thus creating the culture we know as the vedic culture from were the current culture is derived from).

        And ban me? So you just ban people who disagree with you? Why even have the comment section then if you are afraid to debate beyond your own point of view (that, i thought, was the sole object of debating).

        I don’t get you Lindsay, i really don’t. You act like your scientific but your true nature is the oposite: close minded. You are actually more alike the hindu nationalist then you think you are.

      • pepperroncini

        These upper caste Hindu activists aren’t intellectuals , they are liars trying to ripoff another peoples’ heritage and claim it as their own. Like some White Nationalists who claim Sumeria and Ancient Egypt were White .

  74. Soham

    Wow, did you even read what i said? And banning people because they don’t link to your point of view? You are more related to the hindu nationalist then you think you are (close minded that is).

    I NEVER disproved (nor aproved) that PIE homeland wasn’t India. I said – it is a THEORY, and the current view (Black sea theory) is AT THE MOMENT (with the current evidence) the most PLAUSIBLE one. YET, theories are NOT right or wrong, they are THEORIES and NOT facts.

    So you truly are fighting only with yourself when you try to force your opinion on others. No party is right at the moment my dear Robert. And to be honest, i myself couldn’t care less. What i want, is more knowlegde about the IVC, NOT what the homeland of PIE is. It is known the vedic civ. had similarities with the IVC (which are typical Vedic and not related to PIE and its culture), meaning they adopted some of their ways, which also means it wasn’t an invasion but a transmigration (a fusion of culture you can say). This does NOT belittle the accomplishment ancient India made in many sectors (see my last post), nor does it belittle the idea that parts of the vedic culture came outside of India.

    I do think its hard to disprove that vedic sanskrit (and the vedas with that as we know them now) was created in ancient India, since the geographical locations talked about in the Vedas all lies in ancient India (as i said, Indus river, Saraswati river and later the Ganga river). The fact that sanskrit had loan words of (proto) Tamil in it, is enough of a fact that it was created in India. Proto sanskrit/vedic culture MAY be from outside of India. In fact, the current evidence do point to that direction yes ( i can’t deny that, being reasonable).

    My question to you is: How can what i have written not be seen logical to you from a scientific point of view? I never disagreed with what you said (besides that the vedas do have connection with the IVC, which means it wasn’t an invasion but transmigration) and i stay neutral/reasonable. When i look at your post, i can see that you are intelectual, yet that is clouded by your bias and that bias is decaying your intelect. It blocks you from opening new doors, new ways to view the world which is nothing more then a waste. So my advice is, open your thoughts to new ideas, which is the definition of science.

    • Your ideas about theories are just wrong. The current theory is generally accepted as fact by almost all linguists.

      Everything you say here is correct. Indeed Sanskrit developed in India.

  75. I think history is more complex than simple black and white aryan or dravidian myths pedalled by people. Firstly it is a historic proven fact accepted even by Romila Thapar and archaeologists that aryans did not invade India or destroy IVC. There is absolutely no evidence to suggest burnt cities or destroyed homes except for few isolated skeletons. Moreover given the setting of Rig Veda and its focus on horse sacrifice and iron littugurcical objects its most likely that IVC was already dead by the time aryans arrived thanks to climactic factors. It is most likely that most IVC people had migrated to more fertile and water rich ganges belt and farther to South India (where they created a similar civilization in form of Dravidian civilization) by the time aryans fully settled in. And once they settled in india proper, its almost proven looking at latter texts like puranas that they had more or less adopted indian cultural mores and practices (which were mostly hindu). The most compelling evidence is the rise of vaishnavite and shaivite cults which were absent in early vedic texts and downgrading of indra and varuna as mere devas. So what happened was most likely the indianization or hinduization of aryans rather than the other way around. This implies unequivocally that people in earliest IVC were following a form of Proto Hindu religion which evolved over time taking into account shifting locations and migrations. This also implies that aryan and dravidian are pure linguistic classifications of the same hindu civilization.Off course that hinduism (like other religions) relies extensively on myths and mythology means that Rama and krishna were mere minor historical figures elevated to Godhood and nothing more.

    • No one aside from morons believe in Aryan invasion.. if Invasion theory was actually true then we would see it being documented in the Sanskrit literature just like how Bible documents the destruction of Pagans.

      But it is definitely true that IVC was likely already gone by the time Aryans arrived so that’s why there’s no record of IVC..

      “what happened was most likely the indianization or hinduization of aryans rather than the other way around”
      That’s only partly true.. the Aryan culture changed the modern Dravidian culture for most part., for ex:dravidians no longer bury their dead like they used to in IVC instead they burn them like aryans.

      While Dravidian language family&culture survives to some extent it is highly aryanized, even Tamil the language with least Sanskrit influence still has very noticeable Sanskrit influence especially cultural.

  76. Udaya

    Why don’t your reconstruct skeletons and do genetic studies on human bones.Studies on dentition also can be of use

  77. James

    There had not been any change in the genetic pool of the area of spread of Indus Valley civilization for the past 50,000 years

  78. Sadly for AMT supporters, Genetics shatter any possibility of Aryan migration into India. Refer this article by Michel Danino http://archaeologyonline.net/artifacts/genetics-aryan-debate

    • Genetics has not proven AMT wrong at all, sorry.

      • Naveen Emmanuel

        Hello,

        I came upon your article while indulging my curiosity of how people perceive IVC. Your’s is an interesting article :).

        I agree with you that Aryan Migration theory has not been proven wrong. But Aryan Invasion theory has been conclusively proven wrong.

        Reason: There ain’t any archaeological evidence of war and deaths of hordes of people. Early claims on the same had been proved wrong. Historians world wide now consider environmental factors (like drying up and shifting of river- which some calls Saraswati, though I am skeptical) for the decline of IVC. There is a BBC documentary on the same which you can access by simple Googling.

        I must also add that the issue (of IVC decline) is yet to reach its logical conclusion. We, relatively laymen, is quick to depend on theories. But science demands those theories to be conclusively proven with complete factual data. The same is yet to happen for the demise and even period of IVC. (Recent archaeological evidences take IVC period even further).

        • pepperroncini

          The only change to AIT is that there wasn’t a blitzkreig like invasion. This does not mean there wasn’t an invasion but one that was gradual colonization , like how Europeans colonized the America.

  79. Hello Robert, can we have a healthy debate?

    Someone here said Veda mentions migration of Aryans. For god’s sake please post the verses :). Because I’ve personally read Veda and I have’t found such migration in Veda. May be I missed something.

    Let’s go with scriptures, Veda, where Arya word is used. The Rig-Veda describes the horse as having 34 ribs; so does a passage in the Shatapatha Brahmana. However, the true horse generally has two pairs of 18 ribs, i.e. 36 and not 34.

    In RV 1.162.18, the sacrificial horse is described as having 34 (2×17) ribs:

    The four-and-thirty ribs of the Swift Charger, kin to the Gods, the slayer’s hatchet pierces.
    Cut ye with skill, so that the parts be flawless, and piece by piece declaring them dissect them. (trans. Griffith)

    While the central Asian or your supposed horse of non-Indian region have 36 ribs (18 pairs). This is enough to prove Horse was not brought here by so called Aryan-s and it indicates that the Horse mentioned in Rig Veda could be native to India such as the smaller and stockier Siwalik or Przewalski horses, which often (not always) had 34 ribs.

    But most importantly, archaeological studies indicates that Rig Vedic sacrificial horse is the native Indian breed with 34 ribs. Fossil remains of ‘Equus sivalensis’ (Siwalik horse) show that 34 ribbed horse has been known in India going back tens of thousands of years. Equus sivalensis – Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia Remains date to 2.6 million years ago, and it is assumed that it was extinct during the last Ice Age, between 75,000 and 10,000 years ago, as part of the late Pleistocene megafaunal extinction. Remains have been found in middle to late Pleistocene locations in the Siwaliks and in Tamil Nadu.

    “Equus sivalensis is the oldest true horse known, it has more highly specialised teeth than the Oreston and Newstead ponies. After Lydekker. Palaeontologia Indica, Ser. x. vol. ii.” (Ewart 1911: 366)

    Ewart (1911) presented a good discussion on the Indian Equus sivalensis and found that this particular wild horse has made a large contribution to modern “true horse” or caballus population of the world

    Another evidence in support of indigenous nature of Aryans in India, a Vedic scripture Manusmriti.

    Manu Smriti 2.21 “The tract which lies between the Himalaya and Vindhya mountains to the east of Prayaga and to the west of Vinasana (place where the river Saraswati disappears) is called ‘Madhyadesha’ ”

    Manu Smriti 2.22 ” But the region located between the eastern sea to the western sea, in the same manner (including) the tract between the Himalaya and the Vindhya mountain ranges, the wise call it Aryavarta.”

    Manu Smriti 2.23 ” That land where black antelope naturally roams, one must know it to be fit for the performance for Vedic Yagya sacrifices, the all tract different from that is the country of Mlechhas (non-aryans or barbarians).

    Note: Black antelope is native to Indian subcontinent only and it is found in Dravidian regions also.

    If Indian Aryans themselves mention that Aryans live in Indian subcontinent and people from other parts of the world are Mlechhas, there is hardly any chance for Migration theory being true (That’s a different thing that it is even disproved by genetics and Archaeology)..Interestingly all supposed Aryans of different cultures said they came from other region but only Indian Aryans are saying they are indigenous to India. Isn’t this possible that they are referring to India and out of India theory holds a weight?

    Give me some thoughts over this. Thank You.

  80. I could argue with you for hours on the above as an archeologist but Ill leave you with just this: The Saraswati river as mentioned in the Rig veda, a serious spanner into the cogs.

  81. Ritesh

    Hi RL,

    As a recently initiated person to this whole debate, I must say that the arguments to prove the AIT was post IVC are not as convincing as it is made out to be:

    Introduction of new language Sanskrit post IVC : Since many many people for 5-6 decades have tried to decipher IVC seals assuming it to be a Dravidian script and have failed, isn’t it time to reconsider the notion and start with the assumption that the language may have been Proto Indo-European?

    Existence of a separate language: Is it entirely impossible that the Proto/Indo European language existed side by side along with the IVC cultures? It does exist even now in India. Saying that there is no evidence of cities in Rig Veda is like saying there is is no mention of bananas in the Bible so bananas didn’t exist during that time or toothache for that matter. Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.

    Saying Saraswati river didn’t exist or the argument is null and void isn’t enough. If there are evidences in the contrary it must be shown.

    Mentioning that all the academics believe in the AIT again is not reason enough. All academics also believed that earth was flat. Many such delusions have been proven to be wrong after one evidence on the contrary. How can everyone be CERTAIN that AIT happened?

    There is no STRONG evidence of movement from central Asia to India. The evidence is mentioned as each scholar interprets the sequence of the chapters. When the sequence is seen based on linguistics, and when the sequence is seen based on authors, the results are dramatically different. Hence the evidence is at best, weak.

    By the way, I am not a Hinduvta activist or have any remote connection with any such groups. The interest in this topic is purely personal and education has given me enough scientific spirit which I find lacking in many comments above.

    Regards

    • “isn’t it time to reconsider the notion and start with the assumption that the language may have been Proto Indo-European?”
      No, cus we know where Prodo-indo european originates from and its not India and if it was indeed “proto indo-european” then we should see evidence of a cultural&historical continuity from IVC to Vedic period.

      “5-6 decades have tried to decipher IVC seals assuming it to be a Dravidian script and have failed”
      For starters we don’t know much about the Dravidian language family to begin with, unlike Sanskrit we can’t cross-reference it with other outside languages to trace its origin to reconstruct a “proto-dravidian” language and its recorded pre-vedic history is at best blurry.

      ” Is it entirely impossible that the Proto/Indo European language existed side by side along with the IVC cultures”
      YES! cus if that was true then we would see evidence of that, wouldn’t we!?

      “Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.”
      Eh, yes it totally is considering you’re CLAIMING that they were indo-Europeans but fail to actually prove it with evidence.

      “There is no STRONG evidence of movement from central Asia to India”
      Sanskrit an indo-european language which comes from somewhere around ancient persia.. yeah that’s a STRONG evidence if i’ve seen any bro!

      “By the way, I am not a Hinduvta activist”
      Though, you sound like a Hindi Activist! trying to assert that Sanskrit is native to India and that it existed in the IVC period… yeah you’re just trying to stamp out any possibility that you’re not all that “native” to India.

  82. Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.
    2.”Blaming Hindutva” seems to be an important pillar of this argument.
    Eliminate these two strawmen and you find that there are numerous references to a Saraswati river in the Rig Veda. The geographic location is mentioned in post Vedic texts where the river was west of the Prayag (modern day Allahabad), north of the Vindhya (mountains), South of the Himalayas. This area was later called “vinasana” where the Saraswati dried up. These facts were recorded by Macdonell and Keith in 1912 in “Vedic Names and texts” and not by Hindutva people

    In other words the Saraswati gets mentioned in the Vedas but has dried up in post Vedic texts

    Oldham and Oldham – two British archaeologists found hundreds of Harappan settlements and evidence of a broad dried up river bed in exactly the locations described by Macdonell and Keith. they also recorded local legends of an ancient fast flowing river. They believed this to be the remains of the old Saraswati river. Again, they were not Hindutva revisionists. There is plenty of material in Harappan remains that is in perfect consonance with the Vedas. The Vedas themselves do not claim to be chronicles of history so the lack of mention of something does not imply its absence. There is no mention of people making love or defecating in the Vedas.

    if the “internal evidence” of the Vedas suggests the presence of Horses which have been found only in small numbers in Harappan settlements it would only be fair to consider other internal evidence in the Vedic texts – mainly astronomical observations. Herman Jacobi in 1909 noted a reference to an astronomical event in Vedic texts dating back to 4500 BC. Herman Jacobi was not a Hindu revisionist.

    One could always choose to believe or disbelieve something, but there are astronomical references to events going back to 6000 BC (David Frawley – whom people will call a Hindu revisionist). Calling people names is a weak excuse to use as “evidence” for or against something.

  83. Raman Sehgal

    IVC was completely vedic – problem is that in case the proof is given in support of Vedic IVC – that person is labelled hinduvadi – without bothering to go into the details of the arguments :

    for those interested – read the interview of BB Lal – ex-head of ASI :

    http://www.newsgram.com/no-evidence-for-warfare-or-invasion-aryan-migration-too-is-a-myth-b-b-lal/

    for further read :

    http://www.newsgram.com/indo-european-history-result-of-interaction-of-purus-with-western-anus-druhyus-3-of-5-rigvedic-tribes-talageri/

    or watch video :

    there has not been a rebutal to Talageri’s book on this issue for more than 5 years.

    • pepperroncini

      You are Another Hindutvadi.

      IVC was not Vedic. The Vedic Aryans were barbarians, they were pastoral warlike nomads who did not build any lasting civilizations at that time. They were like Turkic and Mongol hordes. The Rig Veda describes a pastoral rural society not a urban and seafaring civilization like the IVC.

      No one needs to refute Talageri , though Western indologists do. Talageri has not proven anything, he is just the typical upper caste liar trying to ripoff the IVC and claim it for Aryans, like how White Nationalists try to claim Ancient Egypt was White or that Whites were first in the Americas.

  84. S.D.

    Kerela folks are pure Dravidian and Kashmiri folks who run carpet stores down in Cochin stand out like a cockroach on a wedding cake. I am not so sure that they share all of the same DNA (Though perhaps some).

    Brahmans are chilly and distant like Scandinavians or Russians and though they are the shade of an Iranian they do not have those Persian features or Mongol Pashtun ones either. There IS SOMETHING DISTANTLY EUROPEAN about their manner and bone structure.

    Persians have been wandering down to India in waves for thousands of years, undeniably.

  85. S.D.

    Who said cow-herding Caucasians INVADED from the Volga River or Belarus or wherever to fight pitched battles with Dravidian folks.

    They simply showed up with some religion that allowed some degree of ethnocentric emphasis and handed some women over to the Dravidian people and intermarried with others.

    Brahmins do not hop up and down on stages claiming that they are pure Aryans even if they look Tamil Nadu. They are chilly, distant and reserved like a Swede or Eastern European. Their bone structure is curiously European and they do not look Persian either.

    Some guy who claims English created the Aryan Invasion Theory to divide North and South Indians is usually a lower-middle caste person.

    Brahmans do not care to deny it or care if Indian is united or not.

    They are just as happy to live in a condominium in Dubai or own a house in California and be surrounded by whites as to be surrounded by Dravidian folks in Cochin.

    • pepperroncini

      From thew Rig Veda we can see the Aryans were constantly fighting amongst themselves and raiding for cattle. They are also fighting other people; the identity of these other peoples is somewhat in dispute. Do you think the Aryans would fight amongst themselves but not fight Dravidians and other indegenous people. It’s like saying European colonists in America only fought amongst themselves and did not fight the Natives. Aryans like other Indo-European speakers were warlike.

      In the Rig Veda the Aryans also describe the natives of the Indus Valley as dark skinned , short and snub nosed. The Aryans also state these natives worshipped the Lingam.

  86. Ajay Joshi

    I am writing from India. I am 60 years old. I seriously feel that the “hinduttva” oriented people who are writing here are a discredit to Indian intelligence. Let us try and put logic and evidence instead of just quoting from the vedas.

    Also, let us not discredit western scholarship. Someone has made a very beautiful point. Vivekananda used Max Muellers translations to deliver the Lecture in Chicago/ Ashokan edicts were discovered by western scholars because the Brahmins had been too busy making horoscopes for 2000 years. Sadly that’s the level of the “nationalist” scholarship in India even today. Can we learn to keep aside nationalism when we are trying to do establish facts?

    Here are 2 question to whoever can answer it.

    A. What was the script (not the language) in which the vedas were composed. ? The traditional answer is oral composition, but it looks a little implausible given the size of the vedas. Its like saying that an entire encyclopedia can be composed orally, and that too in a language as complex as vedic Sanskrit. So there has to be a script..perhaps the missing link between Indus Valley and Prakrit.

    B. Second question. First let us assume as my “nationalist” fellow Indians think , that the Vedas overlapped / are older than Indus valley.. Therefore we have to also assume that the Indus valley people were indeed also the same Vedic people who composed the Vedas. . Now here is the question. If the Indus valley people were also Vedic and if the vedas were composed prior to 4000 BC, how is it that the longest seal we find in IVC is only 40 characters long ? If the guys were in possession of the Vedic composition and given the humongous importance attached to the Vedas surely they would have left at least one lousy seal with something of the Vedas on it ?

    Answers anyone ?

    • Vibhas Punekar

      Unfortunately, the traditional answer of oral transmission down the generations is the only answer available, as the Sanskrit language did not have a written script until the Devanagari script was developed, which is definitely much recent than the Vedas.

      About the second question, Vedas were not instruments of recording history, they were just sacred mantras to be memorized and used to pray the different gods in the form of forces of nature. So do not find any mention about the civilization or the building of cities and drainage system, nor did IVC need to make any seals based on the Vedas. It is possible that the people following the Vedas were living in jungles away from the cities and the civilization on the river bank at the same time or before and did not interfere in each others lives.

    • TRASH

      GORA WHO LIVED IN INDIA

      Whoever said that Dravidian Culture was inferior to that of Aryans? For all we know they were merely Arab cow herding Bedouin. Though if that is all they were, they had an enormous impact on Dravidian culture above the Hindi line.

      South India is cleaner than North India today and safer, from the perspective of a Gora.

  87. donald fernandes

    The question as to whether the Indus culture vanished before the appearance of the Aryan people or after their arrival is a simple issue but it has some interesting twists and traps.But all said and done it may be a Pandora’s box with inestimable scope for public unrest and harm, which must be avoided.
    Coming to the main point – one must ask where are the Aryans today? Today they are represented by the Hindu society which has preserved its holy books – the Vedas and allied sacred texts and continue to preserve their customs and rituals as practiced by their ancestors. In other words they have lived in the Indian sub-continent from time immemorial. They are best placed to explain about the Indus culture which was spread across present day Pakistan and India – from the borders of southern Afghanistan to the Godavari basin(proved by excavations). Indian history which had its tentative beginings around c. 1500 BC does not speak of the existence of the Indus culture until September 1924 – announcement of the discovery of the UNKNOWN Indus civilization. Even today no archaeologist in the world has identiied the Indus culture. It is unknown. Making claims to unknown and unrelated knowledge is simply bad practice.
    If the Indus Valley people vanished long before the coming of the Aryans, then the Aryans are not to be blamed on any count, because they had no clue about the existence of the Indus people. There is no further scope for arguement.
    However, if the Indus and the Vedic people were contemporaries or bad neighbours( as suggested by many verses in the Vedas) then the experts on the Vedic writings should make it clear and explain as to who were the Indus people and why and where have they gone. There is nothing more to it.

  88. Clearly the author haven’t read the Rig Veda. Also he as assumed that the origins of Rig Veda can be much before the Indus Valley Civilization before the zenith of Indus Valley . Whether it is Vedic or Indus Valley , both developed in India and clearly there is a connection between the two as structures on Dwarka is found dating as old as 7000 BC and another new site is excavated in Tamil Nadu that is found even older with artifacts dating upto 35000 BC .

  89. Lalit Misgra

    Dear countrymen, friends

    In a new book of mine, I am going to correct all distortions made by RS Sharma and Romila Thapar and establish truth of iVC and Harappan culture with the help of Rigvedic hymns. Entire false buildup of theirs is going to get dismantled.

  90. Pingback: Indus Valley Civilization | paarsurrey

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