Last Word on the Aryan Migration Theory: More

I have added 12 more points to my original article. I will print them here since most will not go back and read the original article again. Some of you may find these additions interesting. As you can see, I have totally immersed myself in this debate over the past few weeks or so.

1. Archeoastronomy. OIT proponents like to push this theory. Supposedly, the positions of stars are mentioned in the Vedas. By analyzing the positions of stars in the Vedas, we can make claims about when the Vedas were written via tracking the movements of stars in ancient days.

However, archeoastronomy is a field in poor standing. All we can learn for sure from archeoastronomy is that the Vedas were written some time in the past 8,000 years. All else is up in the air.

The Indian astrophysicist Rajesh Kochhar has clearly mentioned that the astronomical data in the Vedas is not reliable.

2. The association of Andronovo culture with Indo-Iranians is controversial. So say the OIT proponents. This is not true.

Andronovo is a culture associated with the proto Indo-Iranians that stretched, in its formative location, around northern Kazakhstan and and west into Russia to near Samara, then down to the Caspian Sea, covering most of the northwest quadrant of Kazakhstan.

Later its borders enlarged.

At maximum, its northern boundary was from Samara in the Volga Basin east to Anzhero Sudzhensk northeast of Novosibersk in southern Siberia.

The eastern boundary bordered on the Afansevo Culture in eastern Kazakhstan, southern Siberia and Xinjiang. Andronovo did include part of Xinjiang in the far north where the Altai Mountains come down into China.

The eastern border then encompassed most of eastern Kazakhstran except the area east of Balquash Koli, moving down to the border with Kyrgyzstan in the south, encompassing most of Uzbekistan except the far south and the northern half of Turkmenistan all the way to the  southeastern shore of the Caspian Sea. The Aral Sea was the realm of the Andronovo People.

The relation of Andronovo to the Indo-Aryan people in particular, as opposed to Indo-Iranians in general, is more controversial, but has been suggested by some experts.

3. Chariots could not go over the Hindu Kush. Another OIT argument. But as noted above, the Aryans did not move down through the Hindu Kush; instead, they came east from the BMAC through northern Iran to Herat in west Afghanistan east to around Ghazni in east Afghanistan over to the Bannu region in the NWFP of Pakistan. That’s a much easier route than the Hindu Kush.

4. There was no invasion. The invasion scenario has been replaced in the past 40 years to a migration scenario. It seems more likely that instead of defeating the Dravidian people and pushing them to the south, or destroying the Indus Valley Civilization (IVC), instead the Aryans merely profited from the collapse of the IVC that was already underway.

5. There was no genocide of the Dravidian people; all Indians look alike genetically. No one ever said there was a genocide of the Dravidians by the Aryans. Instead, the Aryans moved in, and there was intermingling and intermarriage with the Dravidians, the combined result being the culture of the Vedas.

6. The linguistic evidence. The case for the AMT and the total non-case for the OIT is made by the linguistic evidence. Everything else is secondary. The case was clinched by Hock 1999 (see references).

7. Indians descend overwhelmingly from the Paleolithic population of India. It’s true that 80% of Indian genes go all the way back to the Paleolithic era. But 80% of European genes go all the way back to the Paleolithic too. Same in Britain. Therefore, Europe and Britain has never experienced any migrations of invasions in the past 10,000 years?

The Aryan genetic footprint on Indian genes, if it exists, is doubtless less than 10% of the total. It’s well known by now that the Aryans left language but few genes in India. Identifying genetic history with linguistic history is naive.

Keep in mind that the Aryans were probably installed as a superstrate over the existing Dravidian population. The Aryans were probably no more than 10-15% of the population genetically, and the remaining 85-90% were Dravidians.

8. How could the language of a more primitive people like the Aryans replace the language of the more civilized people, the IVC Dravidians? So ask the OIT theorists. However, let us note that Greek speakers in the Levant, Aramaic speakers in Mesopotamia, Coptic speakers in Egypt and Romans in northern Africa all got their languages replaced by the culturally inferior Bedouins of Arabia. This sort of thing happens all the time.

9. There is no solid proof an Aryan migration to India in archeological terms. This is true as far as it goes, but all it means that is that archeologists typically refuse to characterize migrations in terms of who is migrating where. While there is no archeological proof for an Aryan migration, there is also no proof for Greek, Germanic, Italic, Celtic or Armenian migrations in those branches of IE either.

10. The Rig Veda says that the Sarasvati River flows to the sea. According to OIT folks, since the river dried up 3900 YBP, if the Vedas discuss it flowing the sea, they must have been written before 4000 YBP. However, this statement is only in one sentence of the Vedas, and the word “sea” in question is actually samuda, which Sanskrit experts say can mean lots of things, but in this case means an inland sea or lake as formed by a river emptying into a desert. Which is what the Sarasvati did. The Sarasvati never emptied into the sea at any time.

11. Horses. OIT proponents keep claiming that they have found horse bones or evidence of horses on seals or objects at some early date. None of this has been confirmed, and some cases have involved overt fraud by Indian nationalist “scholars.” The earliest confirmed horse in the region is at Pirak 3800 YBP. Many horse remains have been found after that, but none earlier.

12. The AMT was invented by Max Muller in 1848. Muller was a British spy – agent – whatever who was sent by the British to falsify the history of India so the Indians would lose their national pride. Hence, the AMT is a British conspiracy. Yes, OIT supporters actually say this. The long version is that he was hired by the British East India Company as part of a nefarious plot to denigrate Hinduism.

First of all, the theory was not invented in 1848 nor was it invented by Muller, as it substantially predates 1848, and Muller was not the first to come up with it.

There is no evidence at all that the AMT was hatched as a British conspiracy (other popular theories say that the entire linguistic community was in on this conspiracy), nor has anyone offered any reason how the British could profit by making up the theory of a Bronze Age culture in India. Or why the British, who supposedly hated Indians and thought they were inferior, would invent a theory that said that Indians were in part related to the great British people.

References

Hock, Hans H. 1999. Out of India? The Linguistic Evidence. In: J. Bronkhorst & M. Deshpande, Aryan and Non-Aryan in South Asia: Evidence, Interpretation and Ideology, 1-18. Harvard Oriental Series. Opera Minora, Vol. 3. Cambridge, MA. 

Kochhar, Rajesh. 2000. The Vedic People: Their History and Geography. New Delhi: Sangam Books. 2000.

36 Comments

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36 responses to “Last Word on the Aryan Migration Theory: More

  1. Wade in MO

    So these are additions to your last word?

    It’s like the movie Final Destination 2.

  2. Vinny

    ” Or why the British, who supposedly hated Indians and thought they were inferior, would invent a theory that said that Indians were in part related to the great British people”
    Err because it was easier then to “morally” justify the British invasion of India.

    Point 4 “There was no invasion” is only a recent moderation of the earlier claims that there was an invasion. A lot if Islamic and Christian “Scholars” use that point to somehow justify the atrocities on the native “Hindu” population by missionaries and jihadists.

    Overall, I think that while there were migrations back and forth (India was a land of opportunity back in those days), there never was a genocide in a large scale. Of course, there were wars in the good old days where the losers were killed en masse. So the whole “Aryan” “INVASION” theory was quite premature. You cannot theorize an invasion purely on linguistic basis. Migrations yes. Invasions no.

    All the other points involving chariots, hindu kush, Horses etc in your post is pure crap.

    • All right elephant jockey, you’re banned.

      Bye. HAND.

      • gaurav

        Thanks for banning me. From your “about” page…
        “I have a very high IQ, and I’m told that a lot of high-IQ folks are like this”
        You’re having a laugh :))). Another dumb ass who has got a chickenshit journalism degree topped with (lol) a linguistics !! degree. Sure that is high IQ stuff. And that explains why you support theories based on linguistic interpretations (unadulterated bullshit for me).

        19th century: Aryans invaded India. Linguistics confirms that.
        21st century: Aryans may not have “invaded” but could have been migrations. Linguistics confirms that.

        Lol!!!!!

        Don’t fall for the hype dude.

        • Later elephant jockey. Have fun back in Bharat. Don’t step on any turds on the sidewalk!

        • Wade in MO

          I wouldn;t pay this moron any mind Robert. People don’t seem to understand that theories are modified to expalian information all the time. For example, our understanding of evolution now is different than it was when Darwin published The Origin of Species and even more drastically different that the theories of Lamarck.

          “And that explains why you support theories based on linguistic interpretations (unadulterated bullshit for me).”

          Yeah, lets just call say everything that we don’t like bullshit. Next: archaelogy is bullshit. Then: genetics is bullshit. etc. I don’t like not being able to float so…..gravity is bullshit.

          Also Robert, I beleive I know who this moron is. I think he is sometime AMREN poster Gaurav Ahuja. I’ve seen his comments for years and they’re pure garbage. I also remember reading something he wrote as a guest on a blog, Jewamongyou’s blog I think, where he said he wanted to eliminate the darker dravidians people from the south of India through eugenics and slaughter. I can’t find it now, but I remeber that it was pretty disgusting. For obvious reasons he doesn’t want dravidian to be seen as the native language of the region.

      • sumeet

        first there was Invasion ..then migration…next will be tourism i guess..haha!

    • Wade in MO

      “Err because it was easier then to “morally” justify the British invasion of India”

      How exactly?

    • Wade in MO

      “Point 4 “There was no invasion” is only a recent moderation of the earlier claims that there was an invasion.”

      Holy Shit really? Jeez, I never thought that theories could be modified to adjust for new evidence and arguments. That almost sounds scientific!

      “A lot if Islamic and Christian “Scholars” use that point to somehow justify the atrocities on the native “Hindu” population by missionaries and jihadists.”

      How exactly did they do this? Have any examples? I would be interested to know how the muslims use it considering the theory wasn’t proposed until long after the muslim invasions and modern day indian muslims (even the jihadists you speak of) are in large part Indo-aryan speakers themselves.

      Does the nonsense never end?

      • Vinny

        “Holy Shit really? Jeez, I never thought that theories could be modified to adjust for new evidence and arguments. That almost sounds scientific!”

        Right….so the great souls like Max Mueller started with an “Invasion” theory without any sound basis (and as I mentioned before, theorizing an invasion on a purely linguistic basis does not cut it..its pure horseshit), then “intellectuals” publish the crap out of it all these decades while morons like you lap it up like you lapped your mother’s breast milk. And now you ask “hey its new evidence what about science”? Well I’ve got news for you moron: next time you suck up a new version of some theory that suits your mental state, you better have some perspective.

        http://www.paklinks.com/gs/culture-literature-and-linguistics/157038-what-if-india-hadnt-been-partitioned-2.html

        Pay attention to the column by Ayaz Amir

        “For eight centuries Muslim warriors – lured by tales of India’s wealth and, I daresay, the beauty of its women, and crossing the same Hindukush passes through which, centuries before, Aryan hordes had marched – invaded, conquered and ruled India, putting the impress of their culture and thought upon the land they colonized and receiving something from that land in return. ”

        Unfortunately, Dawn no longer has the article….but you get the point.

        The reasoning then for modern jihadists and britishers is simple: our invasion is justified because you were invaders too.

        And morons like you can never put things in perspective. There is a word for people like you: Chootiya. Read it up.

        • Wade in MO

          Yeah, I think I’ll stick with actual linguists and scientists not morons like you or your favortie psuedo-intellectuals.

          “Right….so the great souls like Max Mueller started with an “Invasion” theory without any sound basis (and as I mentioned before, theorizing an invasion on a purely linguistic basis does not cut it..its pure horseshit), ”

          Oh yes, using linguistics to theorize on the spread of a language is just plain crazy. The reality is that you have not shown any evidence for you claim. All you’ve done is say that this or that is crap and the followed it with a “u iz rayciss”.

          Also, even if we accepted you nonsense about the british or whoever creating the theory to suit their purposes, that doesn’t make it untrue. If a mexican said that whites immigrated to the US from Europe solely because he felt it would justify mexicans immigrating to the US, that would not make it any less true. What you’re doing is just a form of ad hominem attack.

  3. who+dares+wings

    I once sent a letter of support to a jailed in Belgium nationalist and Holocaust skeptic who turned out to be a nice young guy with a family who’d gotten caught up in a police sting operation involving some Belgian soldiers who were stockpiling proscribed automatic weapons. After his release I had to go to the Netherlands on business and decided to let my pen pal know to I’d be in the Low Countries. He invited me to come visit him in his home and picked me up at a train station outside Antwerp. The only other Belgian I knew was Koenraad Elst and I didn’t really know him, I’d only heard about him from old hippies in Benares and I’d read his two volume book The Saffron Swastika. Out of the blue, I asked my host if he’d ever heard of Elst and he replied, “Why, he’s my neighbor and the Godfather of our daughter.” I had my friend ring him up and invite him over for dinner because Elst had always loomed large in my life as an early pilgrim from the West who’d gone to India
    and become a respected scholar there, sort of like a Hundutva George Harrison. Well, due to his parole regulations my host was obliged to attend a class the evening of my dinner with Koenraad Elst. His wife prepared and served the meal while Elst and I chatted in English about what all good Nazis everywhere love to discuss, the differences between the music of the Jefferson Airplane and The Grateful Dead. Our dinner palaver mostly favored The Grateful Dead because it turns out Elst is a committed Deadhead. I, on the other hand, have always preferred The Jefferson Airplane because a cousin was in that band. So, back and forth we went until Elst noticed the hour was getting late. Finally, he pushed his chair back from the table and stood up. He dismissed The Airplane out of hand as Jewish. He excused himself, thanked us profusely for the meal and trundled home. Although hard to accept, in retrospect I think he was right about the Jefferson Airplane, but my verdict on his position in the Aryan Invasion debate remains out.

  4. Lounda

    “Oh yes, using linguistics to theorize on the spread of a language is just plain crazy”

    Sure…using the words “Invasion”, “Genocide” etc to theorize on the spread of language is commonplace. Also, if you had a brain, you would know that the “Aryan Invasion” theory was based on linguistic similarities between Sanskrit and European languages. So my dear son with high IQ (Oh I forgot its the other guy Lol!)..logic 101 for you
    The original theory in one statement….
    Language similarities =====> Aryan “Invasion”
    According to you….
    Language similarities =====> Aryan “Invasion” Using Linguistics to theorize on the spread of language.

    So its like me saying now….hey you were born because your father raped your mother….

    Then 50 years later…

    Hey no it was consentual.

    While at the same time maintaining that the whole issue is not the theory of your birth but to study “Linguistic Similarities” or whatever.

    Makes sense? Let me know if you need more logic lessons.

    Oh by the way….look up this..”Nee Oru Thevadaya Khudhi”. I hate “Dravidian” languages LOL!!!

    • Wade in MO

      “Sure…using the words “Invasion”, “Genocide” etc to theorize on the spread of language is commonplace”

      Thanks for proving you’re a moron.

      Now, using similarities between branches of different languages and differences with branches within the same language along with other methods like etymology can tell quite a lot about the history and spread of language. Obviously when we are talking about language, the study of language can be quite helpful. Similarly, when a biological group spreads, the best way to research the movement is using genetics, although if we’re talking about humans we may use some archaeology to map the movement too.

      The rest of your is pretty nonsensical as well. Not much really worth arguing about.

  5. Dano

    Thanks for the anecdote wade.

    I never forgave the airplane for putting out “we built this city”.

    • Wade in MO

      “I never forgave the airplane for putting out “we built this city”.”

      The Hindutva movement is now making a song called “We Built this City” about Harappa. I’m betting it will be of the same quality.

  6. Yes, I know that Guarav has said that the Dravidians should all be killed, but I am not sure if this is the same Guarav that we are thinking of here.

    • Dota-Player

      Thats a pretty extreme position. Usually the Northies consider the southies to be inferior, like the Shiv sena’s mad racism against Malyalis in the 80s. But genocide? You get a lot of fruit cakes on your blog don’t ya rob? lol

  7. Dota-Player

    “”””All the other points involving chariots, hindu kush, Horses etc in your post is pure crap.””””””

    Fail. Horses are NOT indigenous to India and the central Asian nomadic tribes (Aryans being one of them) introduced them to India and Europe whereupon the terrified Europeans could not tell man apart from horse hence giving rise to the legend of the centaur as Bronowski points out in the Ascent of man.

    /face palm

    • vinny

      “introduced them to India and Europe whereupon the terrified Europeans could not tell man apart from horse ”
      Were the “Dravidians” terrified of those too? Surely they had to be huh…..
      Let me get this straight….somebody possibly introduced Horses to India and Europe , the Europeans were scared and that is one of the reasons why there was a big “Aryan” “Invasion” in India. Oh wait it is not an “Invasion” nowadays, it is a “Migration”.

      • Dota-Player

        Guess your right. There were no Aryans. The horses migrated to India because they were attracted to the booming economy of the Harrapans.

        • Wade in MO

          “The horses migrated to India because they were attracted to the booming economy of the Harrapans.”

          LOL Comment of the month!!!

  8. G. C. Carmichael

    “The linguistic evidence”

    Yeah, definitely. If the OIT was true then why do linguists have identify proto-indo-iranian words in Finno-ugric languages of north-eastern Europe like Finnish (apparently even words derived from “Arya” are found)?

    http://pastmists.wordpress.com/2010/06/21/south-asia-india-and-pakistan/

    Besides, the archaeological, linguistic and genetic data really do seem to support the Kurgan theory :

    http://pastmists.wordpress.com/2010/06/21/central-asia/

    http://pastmists.wordpress.com/2010/05/12/xinjiang/

  9. Pingback: Dravidian history no one talks about … « 2ndlook – View From A Square Prism

  10. Sanuj

    Do you have examples of a small minority imposing its language on a large majority ONLY by peaceful migration ?

    “10. The Rig Veda says that the Sarasvati River flows to the sea.”
    Rig veda not only says this, it is full of praise for this river which is mentioned as mighty. If it supposedly dried up by 1900 BC, you can do the math when the prose may have been written.

    All else is irrelevant to this fact that Rig veda was composed earlier than 3000 BC. Build your theories of migration around this, you might even succeed, else just keep dipping yourself in linguistic theories upto your mouth till you vomit !

  11. As i said in another post, there has been an invasion for sure, and a catastrophic one, but it was first preceded by a long, protracted form of immigration called for by an oligarchy considering more and more her own people as their priority enemy. Without a treasonous oligarchy, so well functioning and technically advanced an empire cannot fall to such a gang of marauder however big it is. Intellectual classes and intellectually overpowering groups when given absolute and unquestioned pre-eminence always resent intelligence outside their ranks, always love to control more and more barbaric people like robots, but the day comes when due to some bug or virus in the program the brutes, without conceiving of a revolt for any superior justice or order of their own, just escape all mind control, all calming drugs, and go amok. The initial phase of Glorious Vedic India was Zimbabwe and Rwanda on steroids (colours reversed) and without end but just a long tapering off of the destruction process by sheer lassitude into a everlasting complacent hymn of praise to the elders for having caused so much havoc.

    Harappa was not a purely Dravidian city, it was multi-racial and practically of the same multi-racial mean composure as many towns of India are today : actually all the most ancient civilisations we know of were multiracial at their very origin with one master racially-typed caste, generally not the clearest but the one to be the most perfect by completion of the qualities of all others, imparting each other one their role, they were never purely White things at their origin.

    The Aryans, though, were homogeneously Caucasian, though they did not look like at all the Aryan type as fancied by the German Nazis : the hair they considered most beautiful was jet-black, never blond or red (that was seen as a sickness), and flowing curly, not flat, they also fancied their ideal skin colour as golden-rosy, not silver-white, today’s Anglo-Saxons would’t acknowledge these types as really White. This Aryan type was also conceived of as the most dangerously sexually alluring type of all for both sexes, with very marked secondary sexual characters such as buttocks and beard, quite in the way we now fancy Brazilian Latinos, not Wasps or Germans. This is something essential to consider if you want to understand Indian sculpture. They were ideally very brachycephalic, not dolichocephalic. As warriors, they were more threatening like Italian Mafia Strongmen, not like German athletes. They despised purely factual knowledge as below themselves and good only for mental slaves, they strove for purely magical occult powers. In terms of contemporary values, these Whites were as regressive to civilization as we now imagine rather many Africans who would also have the cunning of desert Arabs : they were muscular, they were seducing, they were rowdy, they were destructive, they were unpredictable, they were insensitive, they preferred myth over fact, magic over reason, fight over work. It is clear that they were takers and destroyers by any account, not makers and builders. The Nazi narrative about Whites as civilization builders doesn’t hold in view of that personality type described as the ideal Aryan in the sacred texts : Vedic Talibans far more eager to burn heretical books than to write their own ones (this may explain why the very regions whence these Aryans emigrated are still now dreaming of doing the same, using Islam this time). Their main and most beloved deity was Indra (now practically forgotten in modern Hindu religion), whose chief attribute was to destroy cities through the agency of long-prayed for natural calamities they were about to help with their own looting : not a spiritual big deal for civilization-building.

    This said, studying hinduism is an adventure in the exploration of human faculty of deceitfulness and self-deceitfulness. To state it plainly, it is a universe where truth as we love just need not apply, and where your love to tell it classify you into the lowest orders of society. The acceptance of lies as the very fabric of all things is the very definition of elementary Indian wisdom. Truth-teller, together with do-gooder, are probably the nastiest insults in that culture.

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