The Aryan Migration Theory: Last Word

It has been known for 150 years now that the Indo-Aryan languages came from outside of India. The evidence is overwhelming, primarily linguistic, but there is also some archeological evidence. In scholarly circles, there is no debate on the Aryan Migration Theory (AMT) and there has been little debate for 150 years. It is only among Indian nationalists and a few hacks and kooks that it is not accepted.

1. There is a substrate of a language that looks like a Munda language in the Rig Vedas. A Munda language was probably spoken in the Punjab when the Aryans migrated there. About 4% of the words in Rig Vedas are these early Munda loans. None of these Munda loans are found outside of Indic.

They would be found all through IE if the Out of India Theory (OIT) was true. The OIT holds that Aryans inhabited North India for 8,000 years, all the while the Dravidians were in South India and Munda tongues were in East India. Obviously, the Aryans came into Punjab and there mass language shift from a Munda language to Indo-Aryan (IA). The language shift is evident in the sparse Munda loans into Vedic Sanskrit.

There are also a few place names left in North India from the original Munda language of the Greater Punjab area. There are some river names left in Eastern Punjab and Haryana where the local Indus Valley Civilization (IVC) continued for some time after the arrival of the Aryans. These names would not be there if the OIT was true.

There are a large number of IA words for local plants and animals and for agriculture that have been borrowed from the Munda language of Punjab. There would be no reason for the IA people to borrow these terms if the IA people were native to Punjab. Instead, this borrowing is precisely what we would expect to see when pastoralists from Central Asia move into the tropics, encounter new plants and animals and start farming – they borrow the terms for these new living things and technologies from the locals.

This is particularly so in the case of farming, which was left to the local people – the Sudra caste. The IA people only brought a few farming related words with them from Central Asia – the remainder were borrowed from the new locals.

40% of Hindi agricultural words still derive from an unknown pre-Munda language of the Indo-Ganges Plains. Nahali, a small language in Madhya Pradesh, at successively lower levels of its vocabulary, displays high levels of borrowing from earlier tongues. 36% of vocabulary is of Kurku (Munda) origin and 9% is Dravidian. At the oldest level, 24% have no cognates in any known language and appear to have derived from the oldest language known from India.

2. There is an old set of shared loans between proto-Indo-Aryan and proto-Iranian for a number of agricultural and other cultural items that appeared in the Bactria-Margiana (BMAC) 3700-4200 YBP. The BMAC is located more or less in present day Turkmenistan. Obviously, these shared loans were picked up by the proto-Indo-Iranian people as they moved down from the steppes of Kazakhstan and Russia into the BMAC, conquering the people who lived there.

There are references in the Rig Vedas to the conquest of the BMAC peoples by the Arya. For this sequence of events to have occurred, the Indo-Aryans would have had to have moved through the BMAC during this time period and later moved into Iran and India, not the other way around. The language of the loans is not known, but it is apparently the language of the BMAC people.

So there is a BMAC or Central Asian substrate in Indo-Iranian. A possible guess for the language of the BMAC people might be a relative of the Burushaski language of northern Pakistan.

The substrate of the Rig Vedas is a Munda language. The substrate of the earlier Proto-Indo-Iranian language is the language of the BMAC. This sequence is not possible under the OIT and is only possible under the AMT.

3. There are early Indo-Aryan loans into the Caucasian language of the Mittani, who lived in northern Iraq and Syria. These loans are dated to ~3400 YBP. These loans are from an earlier form of Indo-Aryan than is used in the Vedas. Therefore, the Vedas must have been composed 3000-3500 YBP and could not have been composed any earlier.

Also, the Mittani could not possibly have come out of India as the OIT demands, since the IA loans do not show any Indic influences. Nor could the loans have come from Iran, as there are numerous IA Gods in the Mittani texts who are marginalized or do not exist in Iran. The loans must have come from somewhere else, apparently the north.

4. We have numerous references in the Vedas to battles between the Arya with their stone forts, metals, horses and chariots against the more sedentary peoples living in South Asia at the time.

5. There are pottery shards in the BMAC that resemble that shards found in the steppe culture to the north. This indicates that there is cultural resemblance between the two cultures. The suggestion is that the shards are Indo-Aryan and appear first on the steppes and then again in the BMAC with its conquest by the Aryans.

6. The chariot appears in the Urals 4000 YBP and then spreads rapidly in many directions with the spread of IE languages, to Europe, to China via the Tocharians and of course to India and Iran via the Aryans. The horse also appears in South Asia (Pakistan) 3700 YBP in conjunction with the chariots. The modern horse is not native to South Asia, so obviously it came from outside, obviously from the Aryans. The indigenous horse of South Asia, the Siwalik horse, was long since extinct.

7. There are specific Punjabi and Uttar Pradesh loans in Vedic Indic that are not found in Iranian. Therefore, Iranian could not possibly have come from Indic as the OIT demands. The languages must have split in the BMAC, one line going to Iran and another line going to India.

8. The Soma ritual originates in the high mountains of Central Asia  – the mountains of Iran, the Himalayas and the Pamirs – with the proto-Indo-Iranian peoples. The original name for the plant is a Central Asian term amsu . This term is borrowed into Indo-Iranian and eventually becomes soma, etc. Later, it moves down into Iran and India and appears in the Vedas. Therefore, the Aryans brought the Soma ritual with them from Central Asia to Iran and India.

9. There is tremendous evidence for a common Indo-Iranian language, mythology and ritual. This shared heritage is not possible with the OIT. It is only possible if there was an Indo-Iranian people, who then split into the Iranian and Indic branches.

10. The Vedic branch of IA becomes innovated and Indianized (in particular, the retroflex consonants) after its arrival in Punjab, while the Iranian branch escapes this development because it did not enter the subcontinent then. In addition, Iranian lacks any specific Indic terms. According to the OIT, the Iranian branch must be Indianized too, or else all of the Indic terms were somehow lost in Iranian.

Since it is not, both branches came from outside India, to the northwest. Iranian languages cannot possibly have come from the Punjab. An early date for Iranian to leave India is preposterous, and Old Iranian (Avestan) is too archaic to have left India after the Vedas. All this means that Iranian and Indic must have split before the Vedas and thus, not inside India. The OIT for Iranian lies in ruins.

11. Zero specifically Indic words are found in IE languages outside of India. For the OIT to be correct, many Indic terms should be found in all the other branches of IE. After all, the Gypsies left India 1000 years ago and took a large specifically Indic set of terms with them to Europe and beyond.

12. Retroflexion. According to the OIT, all branches of IE would have had to have lost their retroflexion after they left India. How likely is that? What we do find, though, is that those branches of Iranian which move east to abut the Indic languages do acquire retroflexion. Since retroflexion is in general not present outside Indic or languages abutting Indic, it must be a late development in IE specific to Indic and cannot have been part of the original IE language as required by the OIT.

Retroflexion only effects those moving into the Indic plain and the eastern Iranian lands, but everyone moving out of South Asia somehow loses it. This does not make sense.

13. Chariots. For the OIT to make sense, chariots must be exported from India 7,000 YBP. However, chariots only appear 4000 YBP in the Urals and NW Kazakhstan and from there spread from Ukraine to Mongolia. The western IE languages retain an IE root rotho for wheel because they had already moved away before the chariot had actually been developed in the Urals. Everyone to the east uses the IA form ratha. This could only be the case if the IA languages moved south from Urals.

Further, according to the OIT, chariots that appear in the Rig Vedas must show up in the text before they have even been invented. Linguistics shows that the word must have been innovated in proto IA at the Urals, for it is present in both branches of IA. This word, along with its invention, can be proved to have been innovated in the steppes and and then carried into India and vice versa could not possibly be the case.

14. Lack of tropical core vocabulary in IE. The core vocabulary of IE shows that the IE homeland was a temperate or even cold place. The plants and animals in the IE language include such cold weather animals, plants and weather words as the otter, beaver, wolf, bear, lynx, salmon, elk, red deer, hare, hedgehog, mouse, birch, willow, elm, fir, ash, oak, beech, juniper, poplar, apple, maple, alder, hazel, nut, linden, hornbeam, and cherry in addition to snow.

A few of these are found in South Asia, but most are not. There are no specific Indic plant and animal names found outside of India, even where these plants do occur outside of India. The OIT would assume retention of at least some of these terms, would it not? Instead, what we find is that a few core IE terms are modified inside India to apply to new plants and animals.

For instance, IE beaver bheber is adopted for the mongoose in South Asia, since beavers do not exist there. IE willow becomes reed, cane in India. So we see that IE temperate plant and animal terms are adopted for the newly encountered tropical living things in India. The flow is into India, not out of India.

For the OIT to be right, the IE languages would have had to have coined these terms after they left India. However, this is not what happened. Instead, the words were IE words from the core IE language itself, which, according to the OIT, was only spoken in India. But these plant and animal names could not possibly have been created in India because most don’t even exist there.

For the OIT to be correct, IE core vocabulary should indicate a tropical climate.

15. Early loans in very early IE. The earliest loans in IE are from Semitic languages of the Middle East. This is possible with an IE homeland in SW Russia or Anatolia, but not possible if the IE homeland is in India, as the OIT requires.

16. Typological features of IE. The typological features of IE are between Kartvelian in Georgia and Uralic in the Urals, as we would expect with an IE homeland in SW Russia, and unlikely with an IE homeland in India.

17. Skeletons. Where are the Indian bones? The OIT requires not a trickling out of India, but a massive migration out of the Punjab. Yet Indian bones look remarkably different from Middle Eastern and European bones. With the massive migration out of India required by the OIT, we should find Indian bones in all of the branches of IE. One would have to argue that the IE speakers who left India did not look like the rest of the Indian people.

18. Facial characteristics. DNA analyses of burials in the Kurgan area near the IE homeland 6000 YBP shows that 60% of the early IE people there had light hair and green or blue eyes. How many Indians, even North Indians, have light hair and light eyes? Almost none. Clearly, the Kurgan peoples were a European type of people. They moved down into Iran and India and mixed with the darker folks already there, creating the present day swarthy peoples of South and Central Asia.

19. Very early Proto IA loans in Finno-Ugric. The homeland of the Finno-Ugric people is somewhere in the Urals. The homeland of the Proto Indo-Aryan people is also somewhere in Urals, especially at the very southern end. The only way for these early PIA loans to get into Finno-Ugric is if the PIA homeland is in the Urals. It’s not possible with the OIT, which generally makes a separate Indo-Aryan branch impossible anyway.

20. Vedic is later than Hittite. For the OIT to be correct, Vedic must be the most ancient branch of IE of them all, very close to Proto IE itself. Yet Hittite, attested from 4000 YBP, is earlier than Vedic. In fact, it is later than Eastern IE, Proto IA, and even pre-Vedic, so Vedic must be a fairly late development in IE. In fact, Vedic is even later than the early forms present in Mittani 3400 YBP.

21. Sanskrit is the most ancient language in all of IE and looks a lot like the original IE language. This is the OIT claim. In fact, IE does not look much like Sanskrit at all. And Sanskrit is not even the oldest attested IA language. Vedic comes first, then Epic Sanskrit and then Classical Sanskrit, and Vedic itself cannot possibly be older than 3500 YBP. The IE language is dated to 6500-8000 YBP (I favor the earlier date). Epic Sanskrit appears only 2500 YBP and Classical Sanskrit comes even later.

22. Lack of IA archeological sites. This is a classic OIT argument. Actually, we do have quite a few site. From the original Proto-Indo-Iranian sites in Sintashta southeast of Urals to the BMAC in Turkmenistan to the Yaz Culture in northeast Iran to the Swat Culture in the Swat Valley of Pakistan to the Cemetery H Culture in Punjab to the Copper Hoard Culture to the south, to the Painted Grey Ware Culture to the south and east, we have a long stretch of cultures that have long been associated with the AMT by archeologists.

Cemetery H in particular shows a possible move away from IVC culture. While the pottery is of course the same, there is a new design on the pottery. On funeral urns we see a small picture of a man with a bird inside of him. This seems to indicate the Vedic belief that the souls of men could fly like birds. Cemetery H also shows a new burial style – cremation and deposit of remains in burial urns. These changes in culture are probably due to Aryan influence.

The ideal Aryan archeological site, however, has typically not yet been found. The ideal site would have the remains of horses and their furnishings, chariots, A Vedic ritual site with three fireplaces west of a river, a flimsy and primitive building pattern of bamboo huts, tools made of stone, copper and bronze, gold and silver ornaments, food consisting of barley, milk products and the meat of cows, sheep and goats. However, the pottery style would remain local, as the Aryans did not innovate pottery.

Such a site has continued to elude searchers, but one has been found in Swat. Swat is mentioned in the Vedas as Aryan territory – suvastu.

23. No Aryan bones. Another OIT argument. It’s quite common for migrations to not be represented by skeletal remains. The remains of the Huns, a large force of proven invaders who conquered Hungary have only just been found in the past 20 years. The most recent research indicates that the Aryans left language, but few genes, in India.

This is reasonable and is often the case with many migrations and invasions. The Huns left as little genetic imprint on the Hungarians as the IA people did on Indians. The Magyars also left their language in the Danube, as the IA people left their IA language in India.

24. European appearance of Indo-Iranian peoples. There is no getting around it. The speakers of Indo-Iranian (II)languages often look strikingly European. This is particularly the case of Iranians, who consider themselves White, or Europeans outside of Europe. The speakers of II languages in Afghanistan often look very European. People in northern Pakistan are some of the most European looking people in the region. Punjabis often look very European, and they look much different from the South Indians to the south.

For the OIT to be correct, this should not be the case. All across the region, all II speakers should look like South Indians, and so should the Punjabis of North India. That II speakers look so European is evidence that they are partly descended from the very European looking peoples of the Kurgan culture of southern Russia. They moved south and east into Central and South Asia, bred in with darker locals, but still retain a strong resemblance to their European roots.

25. LANDSTAT photos indicate the drying up of the Sarasvati River 3900 YBP. A stable of the OIT argument. Since the Sarasvati is mentioned as “the great river” in the Vedas, this proves that the Vedas are much older than 4000 YBP, despite the copious linguistic evidence. The problem is that LANDSTAT photos cannot indicate geographic times.

Further, the Sarasvati River situation is very tricky. The situation as represented in the Vedas is the same situation as exists today. The upper Sarasvati is a significant river, and this is where the settlements were. The lower Sarasvati had already begun to dry up, and by the time of the Vedas it emptied into an inland lake. In a few places, the lower river goes underground in the alluvial Punjabi plains and disappears.

Archeological investigation indicates that settlements along the lower river were abandoned as the river dried up around this time. As you can see, the “Sarasvati River dried up” meme is a huge red herring.

26. No memories of an Aryan migration. Another OIT line. First of all, it is quite typical of most people to have no memories or false memories of wherever they came from. The Romans said they came from Greece. The Gypsies say they came from Egypt.

However, the Vedas do contain vague references to former habitations, such as what appears to be the BMAC and there are references to journeys over mountains and mountain passes. Many place names in Afghanistan are from proto-II words from Central Asia and often lead back to ancient Central Asian enemies of the Arya referred to in the Vedas. One of these is the Parni, associated with the BMAC and later with a northern Iranian group. They had stone forts and well-built cow stables in northern Iran that look a lot like earlier BMAC structures.

The route of migration did not take place over the high passes of the Himalayas and the Pamirs. Few groups have migrated over these treacherous mountains in the last 2000 years. Instead, the migration went from the BMAC down through northern Iran to Herat in West Afghanistan to the Gomal River in near Ghazni in East Afghanistan to the Swat Valley.

There are frequent references in the Vedas to southward and eastward movements of various groups of Arya. There are no references to westward groups as would be required by the OIT. Some of these movements to the south and east are described in military terms as victorious conquests. There are also references in the late Vedas of movements of the Arya east from the Afghan/Pakistan border to Haryana, Uttar Pradesh and all the way to Bihar.

27. Archeoastronomy. OIT proponents like to push this theory. Supposedly, the positions of stars are mentioned in the Vedas. By analyzing the positions of stars in the Vedas, we can make claims about when the Vedas were written via tracking the movements of stars in ancient days.

However, archeoastronomy is a field in poor standing. All we can learn for sure from archeoastronomy is that the Vedas were written some time in the past 8,000 years. All else is up in the air.

The Indian Astrophysicist Rajesh Kochhar has clearly mentioned that the astronomical data in the Vedas is not reliable.

28. The association of Andronovo culture with Indo-Iranians is controversial. So say the OIT proponents. This is not true.

Andronovo is a culture associated with the proto Indo-Iranians that stretched, in its formative location, around northern Kazakhstan and and west into Russia to near Samara, then down to the Caspian Sea, covering most of the northwest quadrant of Kazakhstan.

Later its borders enlarged. At maximum, its northern boundary was from Samara in the Volga Basin east to Anzhero Sudzhensk northeast of Novosibersk in southern Siberia.

The eastern boundary bordered on the Afansevo Culture in eastern Kazakhstan, southern Siberia and Xinjiang. Andronovo did include part of Xinjiang in the far north where the Altai Mountains come down.

The eastern border then encompassed most of eastern Kazakhstran except the area east of Balquash Koli, moving down to the border with Kyrgyzstan in the south, encompassing most of Uzbekistan except the far south, the northern half of Turkmenistan all the way to the the southeastern shore of the Caspian Sea. The Aral Sea was the realm of the Andronovo People.

The relation of Andronovo to the Indo-Aryan people in particular, as opposed to Indo-Iranians in general, is more controversial, but has been suggested by some experts.

29. Chariots could not go over the Hindu Kush. Another OIT argument. But as noted above, the Aryans did not move down through the Hindu Kush; instead, they came east from the BMAC through northern Iran to Herat in west Afghanistan east to around Ghazni over to the Bannu region in the NWFP of Pakistan. That’s a much easier route than the Hindu Kush.

30. There was no invasion. The invasion scenario has been replaced in the past 40 years to a migration scenario. It seems more likely that instead of defeating the Dravidian people and pushing them to the south, or destroying the IVC, instead the Aryans merely profited from the collapse of the IVC that was already underway.

31. There was no genocide of the Dravidian people, all Indians look alike genetically. No one ever said there was a genocide of the Dravidians by the Aryans. Instead, the Aryans moved in, and there was intermingling and intermarriage with the Dravidians, the combined result being the culture of the Vedas.

32. The linguistic evidence. The case for the AMT and the total non-case for the OIT is made by the linguistic evidence. Everything else is secondary. The case was clinched by Hock 1999 (see references).

33. Indians descend overwhelmingly from the Paleolithic population of India. It’s true that 80% of Indian genes go all the way back to the Paleolithic era. But 80% of European genes go all the way back to the Paleolithic too. Same in Britain. Therefore, Europe and Britain has never experienced any migrations of invasions in the past 10,000 years. The Aryan genetic footprint on Indian genes, if it exists, is doubtless less than 10% of the total. It’s well known by now that the Aryans left language, but few genes, in India. Identifying genetic history with linguistic history is naive.

Keep in mind that the Aryans were probably installed a superstrate over the existing Dravidian population. The Aryans were probably no more than 10-15% of the population genetically, and the remaining 85-90% were Dravidians.

34. How could a more primitive people like the Aryans replace the language of the more civilized people, the IVC Dravidians? So ask the OIT theorists. However, let us note that Greek speakers in the Levant, Aramaic speakers in Mesopotamia, Coptic speakers in Egypt and Romans in northern Africa all got their languages replaced by the culturally inferior Bedouins of Arabia. This sort of thing happens all the time.

35. There is no solid proof an Aryan migration to India in archeological terms. This is true as far as it goes, but all it means that is that archeologists typically refuse to characterize migrations in terms of who is migrating where. While there is no archeological proof for an Aryan migration, there is also no proof for Greek, Germanic, Italic, Celtic or Armenian migrations in those branches of IE either.

36. The Rig Veda says that the Sarasvati River flows to the sea. According to OIT folks, since the river dried up 3900 YBP, if the Vedas discuss it flowing the sea, they must have been written before 4000 YBP. However, this statement is only in one sentence of the Vedas, and the word “sea” in question is actually samuda, which Sanskrit experts say can mean lots of thing, but in this case means and inland sea or lake as formed by a river emptying into a desert. Which is what the Sarasvati did. The Sarasvati never emptied into the sea at any time.

37. Horses. OIT proponents keep claiming that they have found horse bones or evidence of horses on seals or objects at some early date. None of this has been confirmed, and some cases have involved overt fraud by Indian nationalist “scholars.” The earliest confirmed horse in the region is at Pirak 3800 YBP. Many horse remains have been found after that, but none earlier.

38. The AMT was invented by Max Muller in 1848. Muller as a British spy – agent – whatever who was sent by the British to falsify the history of India so the Indians would lose their national pride. Hence, the AMT is a British conspiracy. Yes, OIT supporters actually say this. The long version is that he was hired by the British East India Company as part of a nefarious plot to denigrate Hinduism.

First of all, the theory was not invented in 1848 nor was it invented by Muller, as it substantially predates 1848 and Muller was not the first to come up with it.

There is no evidence at all that the AMT was hatched as a British conspiracy (other popular theories say that the entire linguistic community was in on this conspiracy), nor has anyone offered any reason how or why the British could profit by making up the theory of a Bronze Age culture in India. Or why the British, who supposedly hated Indians and thought they were inferior, would invent a theory that said that Indians were in part related to the great British people.

References

Hock, Hans H. 1999. Out of India? The Linguistic Evidence. In: J. Bronkhorst & M. Deshpande, Aryan and Non-Aryan in South Asia: Evidence, Interpretation and Ideology, 1-18. Harvard Oriental Series. Opera Minora, Vol. 3. Cambridge, MA. 

Kochhar, Rajesh. 2000. The Vedic People: Their History and Geography. New Delhi: Sangam Books. 2000.

225 Comments

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225 responses to “The Aryan Migration Theory: Last Word

  1. lafayette sennacherib

    very interesting

  2. Wade in MO

    WTF!?!?!?!?!!?!?

    http://www.bvashram.org/articles/105/1/Mahabharata-The-Great-War-and-World-History/Page1.html

    “What was the role of non-vedic kings in the Mahabharata war?

    In the Mahabharat there is mention of kings who were outside the levels of “civilization” who took part in the Great War. They would belong to the 10th, 11th, and 12th varnas. Vedic civilization is based on four varnas (divisions of society), but there are people who do not fit within these four. They can not measure up to this high standard. The scriptures list a total of twelve designations, the four vedic varnas, and eight additional non-vedic varnas. In the battle of Kurukshetra, Duryodhana took all of the lower fighters onto his side. It is stated that none of them fought on the side of the Pandavas.

    Their warfare was throwing rocks and other very primitive actions. Among all of the great maha-rathas, the astra fighters, these others were completely primitive. For example, they would go into the elephant division of an army and make the elephants sick. They were humans, but in comparison to the maha-rathas they were like insects. Duryodhana sent many such people to disturb Bhima’s movements. Bhima was such a high-class physical fighter that when he saw these groups of people walking with rocks, trying to hit him, he would become very much agitated. It would make him do things which were completely inordinate. Because he was physically too powerful, he would get upset and throw everything everywhere. Just to disorganize him Dhuryodhana was using them.

    They would go and bite the elephant’s legs, and because their teeth were poisonous, the elephant would faint. This was their fighting. They wouldn’t go in front of the elephants like Bhima and hold them by the trunk to throw them. They would walk under the elephants, and do all kinds of annoying things like putting needles in the elephant’s tail. In contrast to the great heros fighting in the war, like Drona and Kripa, who used their powerful astras, these others were exactly like insects.”

    How do they come up with this shit?

    • A lot of it is just a bunch of whack bullshit LOL.

      • Xera

        We are supposed to respect and tolerate this whacked idiotic religion and belief, that produces the world’s ugliest people, and think it’s somehow morally superior to the greatest churchmen of Western civilization, that’s frightening.

        • Manny

          ” greatest churchmen “?>

          Who the fk is the greatest Churchman> Jesus fking christ? LOL 😛

        • Manny

          Jesus is a fking douche bag who deserted all the bating the arsehole got.. I watched the movie “The Passion” and enjoyed it.. I loved the snuff film and how the arsehole got beaten.. he deserved more beating for introducing the concept of a jealous god in this world that brought to this world the christian horrors…from ethnic cleansing of native Indians to enslaving Africans to lynching them to today’s genocide in Rwanda/Darfur.

        • Manny

          The ugliest people we have ever come to know were the “pretty white christians” of Germany who drank Champagne cocktail listening to Wagner when they had 6 million dead bodies in their closet.

          All the “ugly” people of the “third world” like India and Africa cannot compete with that shit..EVER!

        • Manny

          Jesus deserved more than all the blood letting “documented” by that white trash christian Mel Gibson in the movie “The Passion”. for all this shit

          This is a reIigion that never helped its adherents to be m0ral. No wonder they have done these.

          – Inquisiti0n in Spain and Goa
          – C_rusades
          – Ethn!c cIeansing of American Indians
          – SIavery
          – Iynchings
          – The Ant! Chinese league of the Americas
          – Jim Cr0we
          – The HoI0caust. Read the ant!semit!Ic rantings of Martin Iuther the founder of the Protestant movement that was the impetus for the HoIocaust.
          – Separate churches for bIacks and whites in the bible belt.
          – BI00d Iibel. Read in Wikipedia about this.. OMG! What eviI!
          – Rwwanda ethn!c CIeansing
          – Ant! G _ay kiIIings in African countries like Uganda on the instigation of the Southern Bapt!st EvangeIicals
          – Doctrine of Discovery

        • Sphinx

          Jesus is a fking douche bag who deserted all the bating the arsehole got.. I watched the movie “The Passion” and enjoyed it.. I loved the snuff film and how the arsehole got beaten..

          This vile, sadistic creature “Manny” is a very typical product of the Hindutva movement of India which is akin to the Wahhabi movement that arose in Arabia which is terrorizing the world right now. This is the true evil face of brahminism/hinduism the longest running religious fraud in history.

          These enemies of truth and goodness saw the non-violent buddhist monks the same way they see Jesus, and cruelly wiped almost all of them out. Their muslim conquerors finished the buddhists off. These hindutvadis also killed Gandhi, who was deeply inspired by the Gospel of Jesus.

          I personally believe, and many scholars agree, that Jesus must have been influenced by Buddha. They have a lot in common.

    • Manny

      At least the Hindus used their imagination but were honest… they unlike the fking arshole christians who lied that Jesus made wine from water and came from the dead as HISTORY!

      Come on, you got to give it to the honest folks over lying fktard christians?

      🙂

      • Julian Lee

        Oy vey. “The universe revolves around Jews.” You’re forgetting what you people did to the Russians, the Palestinians, and a great many Biblical peoples. Certainly most of our Churchmen were better men than most of your rabbis.

  3. Nadir

    Indo-Aryan language most likely originated in the Eurasian steppes around the Caspian basin and then their living descendant Sanskrit evolved and advanced in Pakistan by the works of Pinani.

    What I was unaware of Sanskrit has a strong affinity towards Balto-Slavic languages and many cognates it carries are more common to Slavic than it’s own descendants the modern Indo-Aryan languages.

    Dwa is two in modern Sanskrit and Slavic languages wheras most modern Indo-Aryan languages use Doe like Romanian and Farsi. I’m not sure of Baltic languages in this case. The Slavic language closest to Sanskrit today is said to be Slovenian.

  4. Shawn

    Robert, what do you think of the armies of sexbots that are gathering far off on the horizon? If engineers are able to make decent sexbots, the whole dating landscape will change dramatically. Streaming internet porn is a step towards dramatically throwing off the dating market. I, for one, would rather watch good streaming porn versus have sex with a fat chick; on the other hand, if streaming porn did not exist I would be more attracted to mud turtles, up until release; as it is now porn is so much more rewarding.

    Watch this — both funny & on-point: http://www.hulu.com/watch/4510/futurama-anti-robot-propaganda

  5. Sojournertroof

    Robert, leave it alone, you have acknowledged that the so called Aryans did not invade but rather migrated into India over a long period having originated from Anatolia now Turkey, or Iran, ‘the true land of the Aryans’ or from India itself, but certainly not from Northern European countries as was once posited. So a bunch of towel and dot heads want to lay claim to the glories of the Aryan culture and language, the point is neither you nor Wade nor other white supremacists have a dog in this hunt, so leave these wogs alone to slug it out among themselves, Nkay? Buh Bye.

    • Look, man, I’m banning you. You don’t get to call me a White Supremacist. You’ve already been banned before, apparently more than once. You don’t get anymore chances. Bye.

    • Wade in MO

      “but certainly not from Northern European countries as was once posited.”

      When exactly was this posted? Just more “u beez uh rayciss” shit from this moron.

    • Juven Bachan

      Hey Sojournertroof, In the Vedas the Iranians were the original Aryas invaders and when they separated one part went into India as Indo-Aryans and became known as what is today’s Indians. There were no Indians before. Fact two , as you and your kind don’t want to believe, is that Sanskrit is the basis of the European languages and now known as IE languages. You and your kind don’t want to face these facts. But I guess that you are not part of that language family.Maybe you belong to the Nostratic family. Fact three, The Swastika is the oldest symbol even older than the Egyptians Ankh and is evidence that only IE people used this extensively in their culture and religion. You and your kind are leery of the Swastika and most Indians revere it. It is over ten thousand years old and came from Southern Russia in what is now known as the Ukraine, it was found carved on a mammoth tusk in Samarra and was brought by the Aryan tribes of Iran and was the basic symbol of the IE religion in the worship of the sun. The custom and culture of your kind has been cemetery burial for thousands of years whilst the IE people has been cremating their dead which is a major difference between your custom and culture and the Aryas of the east. You attempt to belittle the people of Aryan culture is showing the slip of your ignorance. The WhiteTocharian people found in Turkestan used the tika on their forehead and worshipped the Swastika in their culture and they were an IE people speaking a Sanskrit based language. Read more to clear the fog of ancient history and Western propaganda from your flat head brain.

  6. Pingback: Last Word on the Aryan Migration Theory: More | Robert Lindsay

  7. NotAlbino

    Why cant white people take joy in their own history?
    Oh yeah.
    Middle east origin of their religion. Need to latch into something older before coming to the conclusion that they worship an Arab. And that is hard, hard fact.

    They Love their God so much that the people most likely related to him needed to be gassed and now bombed in case they have wmd’s in their bread and water. Love, Love, love.

    Keep shouting from the roof tops of the glorious Blue eyed, blond haired vikings that were the mighty Arya. India has been free for sixty odd years, there is plenty of time to write Vedic history by their actual descendants.
    Its not up for some kind of debate. Think what ever you want. Wear Dot Head culture proudly, wear the swastika and disregard the very symbols your actual ancestors held dear. Nothing more is expected of you.

    Let me ask you something neighbour, nowhere outside of Iran, basically the home of a cut off branch of Vedic culture– Zoroastrian, does the term Arya present itself.

    Why is the term preserved in India when it has died in Iran and never existed anywhere else? Why are Indian gods being worshiped by the Mittani at a time when supposedly the vedic culture was starting by the “migration of Albino Arabs” into Darkest Punjab?

    “Invasion”

    “migration”

    “casual chat..er”

    “a message in a bottle by sea on a swiming donkey, extinct now as are all the glorious animals of mighty, mighty Europe”

    • Julian Lee

      You are lost. A great many of the statements of Jesus Christ only make any sense or have any meaning by referring to Hinduism and texts like the Yoga-Sutras. He was obviously a saddhu in the Hindu mold. Ancient Yoga is the true religion of the Europeans. Christianity is an efflorescence out of European yogic sensibilities, basically an elaborate form of bhakti-yoga. http://www.YogaSutras.com

  8. Neil

    What have you written is absolute crap. There was no Aryan invasion/migration. No archaeological/literary/genetic proofs exist, and still some ignorant folks like you go on repeating the lies!! what a shame
    http://varnam.nationalinterest.in/2012/01/3271/

  9. Thanks for the post.. I was in doubt “am I Wrong?”.. Most funny part is They accused me a Christian.. and this theory is a Christian Propaganda… Most Hindus believe Atheist/Agnostic as Christians.. and they don’t know Carvakas (Ancient Indian Atheists) existed… and they criticized Vedas…
    Hindus even believe Hinduism a Peaceful Religion (Even Christians and Muslims believe the same).. and Hindus never persecuted Buddhists… It’s simply an Islamic Propaganda..

    • Jaipal

      @Ruru Koshy Varghese,

      Yes, Hinduism is largely a religion of peace! Hinduism does not have such a
      violent history the way Islam and Christianity do! Don’t forget that Hindus
      allowed persecuted Jews and Christians refuge in Kerala in ancient times!

      Since you are from Kerala, just as I am, you should have the least doubt about
      Hinduism being violent and persecutionist.

      • Pepperoncini

        Hindus per se did not protect Jews and Christians, it was South Indian rulers in Kerala that protected Jews and Christians.
        It is soo typical of these Hindu supremacists to claim everyone and everything as Hindu.

        • This is absolutely correct. It was Dravidian rulers that protected the Jews. Hindu Nationalists are North Indians, not Dravidians. They are NOT our people. They cannot take credit for calculus either because that was developed in Kerala and Europe. Kerala is not a part of India.

  10. @Jaipal… I suppose Crime is a Crime… and you don’t need to look for the Count… that Who did more.. All committed Crime… If you think Hinduism is a Religion of Peace.. Dig history and see the Persecution of Buddhists.. Look around the Present days of Terrorist Activities… You protected Jews and Christians it doesn’t mean that you haven’t persecuted Buddhists…

    • Manny

      Hey KMalyalee,

      Tell me when and how did this happen EVER? “Dig history and see the Persecution of Buddhists.”?

      Stop making shit up Malyalee!

      • Manny

        I mean “Malyallee christians”!

      • Manny

        Hey Malayalee christian Vargese…what do you think of this?

        • oo… boo… Ho… I’m So offended… Get a Life you Jerk…Just ’cause I got a Christian Name… You think I’m a Christian… Great….and Keep it up…

          Let me provide you some little insight….

          1) “Then King Pushyamitra equipped a fourfold army and intending to destroy Buddhist Religion, He went to Kukkutarama. Pushyamitra therefore destroyed the sangharama, killed the Monks there and departed. After Sometime, he arrived in Sakala and Proclaimed that he would give a 100 Dinara reward to whoever brought him the head of a Buddhist monk” Ashokavadana, 133, trans. John Strong. Ashokavadana quoted Pushyamitra Sunga (180 BCE) as an enemy Buddhism…

          2) Pushyamitra Sunga is known for his Hostility and persecution towards Buddhist Faith. He is recorded having “destroyed Monasteries and killed Monks”: 84,000 Buddhist Stupas which had been built by Monk (Divyavadana P429-434) (Romila Thaper) (Indian Historical Quarterly Vol. XXII, P – 81 ff Cited in Hars. 407). A Large Number of Buddhist Monasteries, Viharas were converted to Hindu Temples in such place as Nalanda, Bodhgaya, Sarnath, Madhura…

          3) The Greek Expansion into Indian Territory may have been intended to protect Greek Populations in India (Obviously, for the Greeks who survived in India and Suffered from the Oppression of the Sunga (for who they were Aliens and Heretics), Demetrios must have appeared as a Savior ” Mario Bussagli, P – 101) and to protect Buddhist Faith from the Religious Persecutions of the Sungas (“We can now I think, see what the Greek Conquest meant and how the Greeks were able to traverse such extraordinary distances. To parts of India, Perhaps to large parts they came, not as Conquerors but as Friends or Saviors; to the Buddhist World in particular they appeared to be Champions” (Tarn, P.180)

          4) Indianized Huns or White Huns were the Worshipers of Sun God and Shiva (History of Civilizations of Central Asia, Volume 3 by Boris Abramovich Litvinovskii, Page 173).. In 515, The White Hun King Mihirkula, instituted a brief, but devastating persecution of Buddhism. His troops are purported to have destroyed 1400 Monasteries. The worst damage was in Gandhari Plains, Kashmir and North Western India, the centers of Power. Mihirkula did not implement his policy in the more remote areas of his Empire. such as Swat. However it undoubtedly affected some of them to a certain degree. The Monastery of Samarkhand, for example is not destroyed, but were completely emptied of Monks. (White Hun Rule and it’s Aftermath in Sogdia) (The Historical Interaction between Buddhist and Islamic Culture before the Mongol Empire by Alexander Berzin, 1996, Lightly Revised, January 2003, December 2006)…

          5) Though there was no persecution of Buddhists by the Ruling Families of Andhradesa, at-least two Pallava Rulers, Simhavarma and Trilochana were zealous in destroying the monasteries at Sriparvata and Dhanyakataka. Radical Saivite sects like Kalamukhis initially and later, Veerashaivas conducted an aggressive campaign condemning Buddhists as Atheists. Occupying Buddhists places, Shiva and Vishnu temples were built over the Buddhist Shrines. The aggressive and often violent campaign is exemplified by the conduct of the Veera Saiva Proponent, Mallikarjuna Panditaradhya, who after losing a debate to Buddhist Monk in the court of chandole conspired and got them killed and destroyed their places of worship. Panditaradhya’s aggressive campaign almost wiped out Buddhism, in the Andhra Country (Buddhism in Andhra Pradesh by Ven. Bhikku Vinayarakkhita)

          6) The Stupas, which were attended, reverenced and patronized by the people were exchanged for Siva and Vishnu. But for the Popular and Royal regard for the Religion, thousands of Monks and Nuns could not have flourished. Besides the loss of Patronage – we do not meet with Buddhist grants after the 3rd Century AD. generally – there must have been persecution and destruction of Buddhist Buildings and Libraries to Some Extent.. Otherwise we cannot explain the entire absence of Buddhist Literature in Andhra Buddhist Remains in Andhra and the History of Andhra Between 225 & 660 A.D. by K. R. Subramnian…

          7-a) Monasteries of Kukkutarama, Sanghrama destroyed by Pushyamitra Sunga (Ashokavadana)
          b) Sanchi destroyed by Pushyamitra but rebuilt by his Son Agnimitra “who was responsible for the wanton destruction of the Original Brick Stupa of Ashoka and when precisely the great work of reconstruction was carried out is not known, but it seems probable that the Author of the Former was Pushyamitra, the first of the Sunga Kings (184 – 148 BCE), who was the notorious for his hostility to Buddhism and that the restoration was affected by Agnimitra or his immediate successor.” in John Marshall, A Guide to Sanchi, P. 38. Calcutta: Superintendent, Government Printing (1918).. etc..

          8-a) Kerala, Many Hindu Temples were once Buddhist Shrines, including Vadakkunathan Temple of Thrissur, Kurumba Bhagawathi Temple of Kannur, The Durga Temple at Paruvasseri near Thrissur, Nilaperur Pally Temple, Converted into Hindu Temple after Pallybana Perumal. Kiliroor Temple of Kottayam, Karumadikuttan near Ambalapuzha, etc.. Jainism, Buddhism were present even before Hinduism.. (Buddhism in Kerala). After Shankara’s definitive reestablishment of Hinduism all over India, all the Buddhist Shrines in Kerala were cleverly repainted to become Hindu Shrines. Legends and Mythology were carefully intermigled, to minimize Buddhist memories in Kerala. Keralolpathi has no mention about Buddhism and Jainism…

          9) If a Person touches a Buddhist or a flower of Pachupat, Lokayata, Nastika and Mahapataki, he shall purify himself by a bath”. – Manusmirti. The same doctrines were preached in Aparka’s Smriti and Vradha Harit, and even Dramas and Puranas written by Brahmins contained Anti-Buddhists should be a Principal Sin. Udayanacarva, the Tatrika in Bauddhadhikaram criticized Buddhism for its denial of Isvara, the Creator of the Universe (Ambedkar), Kumarila the Mimamsaka in his Tarkapadam attacked Buddhism for it’s refusal to accept Vedic Rituals (Daniel H. H. Ingalls, Samkara’s Arguments against the Buddhist, Philosophy East and West, V. 3:4, pp. 291-306, University of Hawaii Press, 1954, The History of Persecution of Buddhist Faith, Korean Minjok Leadership Academy)…

          I suppose there are much more than this.. The complete disappearance of the Religion of the Buddha from the Land of it’s birth is one of the greatest puzzles of history. Disappearance of Buddhism from a Country once it was the Primary Religion in a Short span of Time.. If Christianity Suppressed the Truth in the West, Hinduism Suppressed the Truth in South Asia…

        • Sphinx

          Yes Ruru you are absolutely right. A good way to silence the deceivers is with evidence well presented, which you did. I would emphasize the role that Adi Shankara, the great hero of brahminism, played in wiping out buddhism from the land of its birth. Brahmins openly boast how he defeated the non-vedic religion of Buddha. That was a victory of the inferior over the superior, and India has paid a heavy price for it.

          It should also be mentioned that the muslim conquerors of India finished off the job of annihilating buddhism that hindu fanatics had started.

  11. Hello Sir,

    I am a Vedic Aryan Brahmin from West Bengal, India (and a proud Aryan, as I call myself). I entirely support your idea and am a sincere admirer of the proofs and evidences you have collected in support of my beloved theory, the Aryan Migration/Invasion.

    As you have said, there is no doubt regarding it in the scholastic sphere, and I support that view. In fact, a book titled ‘Prachin Bharater Itihaas’ (a Bengali history textbook for the history honours level) exactly supports this idea. But I am really pained to see that the fools, I mean, the supporters of Hindutva, who are mostly illiterates and idiots to be honest, always think the other way.

    I have been criticized harshly by those fellows, who would not tolerate anything against the flawed concept of ‘Indigenous Aryan theory’. I mean, these people can’t even accept that Aryans are related to the Europeans and there are piles of evidences for that.

    Anyway, you have done a great job, and as a member of the few real Indo-Aryans (as I like to call them, who are at the very least literate and bold enough to accept the truth and not blindly the ugly denial of truth), I sincerely thank you for your great effort in putting forward truth.

    btw I am not blindly against the whites, because I am pretty sure we all are related, through the Indo-European family tree.

    An excellent piece of evidence from the National Geographic:
    http://www.rediff.com/news/2002/nov/27inter.htm

    It clearly says:
    “The Aryans came from outside India. We actually have genetic evidence for that. Very clear genetic evidence from a marker that arose on the southern steppes of Russia and the Ukraine around 5,000 to 10,000 years ago. And it subsequently spread to the east and south through Central Asia reaching India. It is on the higher frequency in the Indo-European speakers, the people who claim they are descendants of the Aryans, the Hindi speakers, the Bengalis, the other groups. Then it is at a lower frequency in the Dravidians. But there is clear evidence that there was a heavy migration from the steppes down towards India.”

    • Thank you for your scientific mindset.

      • Robert, let me tell you that this is not scientific bend of mind but the Inferiority complex of some Indians which make them happy because they are supposed to be related to Europeans.

        It would be something odd for you but as an Indian I know this.

    • Jake

      The Bengali’s don’t seem to resemble Aryans at all, didn’t the Punjabis and the British genocide them because they were deemed racially inferior?

      • Bhabhiji

        Some Bengali men are really hot. Not a lot, but damn, when they are, they really are. Too bad they too live with their moms their whole lives. South Asia needs to answer for that.

      • Know what you’re saying, you fool. First of all, you yourself are most certainly a non-Aryan, and thus you are someone the Rigveda would consider inferior. And anyway, we highest Brahmins are NOT actual Bengalis. Our ancestors came here in order to civilize the land and bring order here. Learn something about the history of the ‘Panch Ratna’ and then say.
        And about skin colour? Is your biology so weak? Skin colour is NOT a determining factor of a race. Stay in Africa for 10 generations and see how your descendants look like. Learn about melanin and then come talking.

  12. Both AIT and OIT don’t have irrefutable linguistic, genetic evidences or circumstantial evidences. Both theories thrives on assumption. “It should have happened”, “I would have happened”. And various logical discussions. But no theory can with confidence say that “This happened”..

    The whole premise of AIT or OIT are based on linguistics. From what I have realized Indian languages had a development routine which was not serial but parallel. Hindi have so many dialects. So proabably nobody can trace the migration of various people with in the hindi belt from language study.

    Human migration is definitely complex than a theory based of “loan-words” and “root” in various languages.

    Almost all studies on AIT are done by Europeans, so we rarely get any different opinions or findings. Actually it really doesn’t matter if Aryans(btw who they are), came from outside or were native to India. It doesn’t really matters.

    Anyway all Humans came from Africa. That is something I agree. Africa Rocks!

    • Bhabhiji

      “Almost all studies on AIT are done by Europeans, so we rarely get any different opinions or findings. ”

      Different opinions are out there. Read John Henrick Clarke and others. Heck, one of the guys I’m dating tells me that Krishna and Buddha were both from Africa and there’s an “afro-dalit” genetic and cultural alliance, and that Brahmins are descended from ancient Khemetic scribes.

      Bring it all on!

      • “Heck, one of the guys I’m dating tells me that Krishna and Buddha were both from Africa and there’s an “afro-dalit” genetic and cultural alliance, and that Brahmins are descended from ancient Khemetic scribes.”

        One of the ? How many guys are you dating?

        I have known many Muslims who believe that Muhammed is that 10th reincarnation of Vishnu which is talked about in Hindu Mythology. His name is Kalki.

        Many of the Muslims I know are devotee of Shiva.

        World is always interesting !!!

    • I am personal friends with some of the biggest linguists in the whole world, and they have come here to read my stuff on AIT. The theory is now accepted everywhere in the world except for India. There is no longer any debate about it, and no sane person thinks that IE came out of India. The whole theory is just Indian whack nonsense. There is also some cultural, religious, literature and archeological evidence for the AIT, and there is even some genetic evidence for it. As I said, the argument is over.

      The reason everyone proposing AIT is European is because Europeans are the only ones interested. But AIT is accepted by Arab, African, Latin American, NE Asian, SE Asian and Iranian anthropologists also. It’s also generally accepted in Afghanistan and Pakistan. The only resistance is in India, and these people are not intellectuals, they are just hacks. One of them tried to get his looney OIT stuff published in a major linguistics journal, and he could not do it, because it would never get through peer review. So peer review was outrageously suspended so this anti-scientific bullshit could be published as an entire issue. I spent many months researching this, and the evidence is overwhelming.

      Linguistics is an excellent science. In this case, there is a ton of evidence that IE came to India late, and zero evidence that IE came out of India. Zero, zero, zero, zero.

      In fact, I have a Masters Degree in Linguistics, so I know what I am talking about.

      It is really painful and embarrassing and shameful that so many Indian intellectuals are so retarded that they believe such outrageously anti-scientific crap. It speaks volumes about your culture, which is emotional, extremely irrational and passionately anti-scientific.

      BTW, India’s top archeologist, Romila Tharpar, supports this theory, as do all competent scholars.

      • Bhabhiji

        Bobby, Romila changed her mind about it.

        • What??!!! She now says there was no Aryan migration???!! I saw a video of her recently on Youtube saying it was true….

        • You are WRONG. She did not change her mind at all.

          Here. Typical Indian emotional reaction and lack of good analytical skills on your part. Indians all over have been misinterpreting her remarks as saying that she is rejecting the theory, but that’s not so. It’s either typical lying on the part of the Hindutvadis, or else a typical Indian emotional and non-objective analysis.

      • I second that. As one of the very few Indians who are eager to accept scientific facts rather than bogus self-proclaimed superiority complex, I agree with your writing and welcome it whole-heartedly.

        The entire matter about OIT is that, the Hindu nationalists wanted to declare India as the sole cradle of civilization, and that civilization was ‘exported’ out of India to the whole world.

        • sumeet

          a recent study dont by harvard university indicates tht thr was no follow of genes into south asia from last 40,000 years !
          And we very well know tht last ice age at its peak arroud 20,000 year before th presnt covered much of the northern hemisphere…making it inhospitable to man…only the Neanderthal man could survive these conditions…while tht th same Indian Subcontinent was triving with life…..how the hell did less cultured …supposedly barbaric people impose there languge and culture on a much superior cultured Davidian people ..?? dont u thing there are so many things wrong with you theory at a much Basic and logical level?

        • @sumeet What on Mars are you talking about?
          1) “a recent study dont by harvard university indicates tht thr was no follow of genes into south asia from last 40,000 years!” ———————-

          Homo Sapiens came to South Asia around 70,000 years ago… Those were not Dravidians and Aryans… But were Negritos and Australoids… Remember at the same time Toba Eruption occured… It was a super eruption… and the after math – Volcanic Winter and cooling… It’s like the Nuclear Winter… Humans were on the verge of Extinction… Genetic bottleneck.. Perhaps between 1,000 to 10,000 breeding pairs existed about 70,000 years ago… and you claim that there was a culture existed… Forget about Aryans and Dravidians… What do you think about the later migrations of Jews, Arabians, Greeks, Persians, etc… Where did you get this stupid news? I don’t think Harvard members are that stupid!!! Are they?

          2) “And we very well know tht last ice age at its peak arroud 20,000 year before th presnt covered much of the northern hemisphere…making it inhospitable to man…only the Neanderthal man could survive these conditions” —————-

          Neanderthals died out 33,000 years ago… and by the time Humans migrated to Europe already till the Arctic Russia… By the way We mixed with Neanderthals when we came out of Africa… and another thing you need to take a note… that Aryans did not travel from Europe to India… They were from Central Asia…
          Do you really believe that we can’t survive a cold environment?… What do you think about Eskimos? or at least take a look at the Tundra Region…

          3) “while tht th same Indian Subcontinent was triving with life…..how the hell did less cultured …supposedly barbaric people impose there languge and culture on a much superior cultured Davidian people ..?? ———-

          Yes… other lives… and our distant Cousins… but not Homo Sapiens… Please take a note that “Aryans came to India only around 1500 B.C.E”…

  13. “and the word “sea” in question is actually samuda, which Sanskrit experts say can mean lots of thing, but in this case means and inland sea or lake as formed by a river emptying into a desert. ”

    I was student of Sanskrit and Samudra= Sea, Ocean

  14. Sumeet

    1.Linguistic evidence : till date there has no evidence of so called proto Indo- european or (whatever crap that language was.)..ever been found !
    2. No evidence of Mass migration …be it genetic or Archeological found
    Recent studies…done by people including those from Harvard have shown that there has been no inflow at genetic level for past 40000 years into the Subcontinent !
    3.Rigveda itself never mentions of any migration or foreign homeland of the so called Aryans!
    There is no word called Aryan per se..only Arya…meaning ‘noble’ and that it was never used to distinguish people at a racial level,,,,as per Rig Ved itself.
    4. According to a recent racial study (The History and Geography of Human Genes), it has been confirmed that all people of Europe, the Middle East, and India belong to a single Caucasian type race. This means that they had to have come from the same source. Thus, we are all descendants of this great Vedic culture, the center of which is India. As more evidence comes forth, it will only prove how the testimony of the Rig-veda and the Puranas is confirmed, and will point to the area of northern India as the original homeland of the Vedic Aryans.
    5. All attempts to date the Vedic literature on linguistic grounds have failed miserably for the simple reason that
    (a) the conclusions of comparative philology are often speculative and
    (b) no one has yet succeeded in showing how much change should take place in a language in a given period. The only safe method is astronomical.

    Grow up dude…speak on scientific terms…dont propagate a theory based upon prejudice and hatred….intertwined with the concepts of White supremacy !

    • Changing your IP, Hindu? Bad idea! Spank! Spank!

      • If Hindus, who are the followers of the last Aryan religion existent, are ‘dogs’, then what are Christians who blindly follow the Jewish shepherd? I wonder. I previously praised you for your efforts to collect pieces of evidence, and still I do respect you for that, Mr. Lindsay.

        While I can see that most Indians here are wrong, and I do solemnly support Aryan Migration Concepts, it’s certainly not fair to call Hindus ‘dogs’. Also, Hindu is a misnomer. The name of our people was, is, and will be Arya.

  15. Hello once again, Mr. Lindsay. I must say your article is one of the best I’ve ever found allover the web regarding AMT, and its logical superiority over OIT. Having been a natural and life-long (well, I’m 17, and I’ve supported AMT since I was 5, after coming to know about it from my relatives) supporter of Aryan Migration Theory, I can say that you’ve done a nearly perfect job summarizing the main points of our theory.

    Although it would be like adding a rock to a mountain, I’d like to add a small but logical point to your already superb list of facts supporting AMT. This one is about religion.

    As we delve into the depths of proto-Hinduism, we find Indo-Aryan deities such as Savitr, Indra, Varuna, Vayu and Agni. Some of them, including the Asvin twins (how close they are to Castor and Pollux, as well as the Azvenoi of the Europeans!) and Indra are most probably based on real-life heroes of the Indo-Aryans, who had been deified after their deaths. Likewise, we find some personifications of nature such as Agni, Vayu and Surya. The similarity between the proto-Hindu Gods and the deities of the other Indo-European groups such as the Greeks, the Avestan Iranians and the Norwegians is especially striking. To exemplify, Thor battles the gigantic Midgard serpent, Jormungandr. Similarly, Indra battles Vrtra, the Ahi or serpent. The entire Indo-European concept of battle of a hero against a dragon or serpent is reflected right inside proto-Hinduism. Even in case of names, we find many, many similarities. For example, Dyuus Pitri of the pre-Vedic pantheon is identified with Zeus Pater, and the Roman Iupitter or Jupiter.

    Later additions to Hinduism, the more developed form, such as the concept of Great Trinity, Brahma, Visnu, Shiva etc. were derived from these more ancient forms. For example, Visnu is actually a mountain God of wild regions, and a helper of Agni as mentioned in the Vedas. Shiva is more identified with Rudra, the god or personification of destruction. Thus, if the OIT is to be correct, there must have been deities similar to those in later-Vedic Hinduism in other branches of Indi-European religions. Thus, even the history of Hinduism supports the AMT.

    Now about the Puranas, the Mahabharatas and Ramayana, which refer to the Vedas as the ‘oldest’ possible thing. These were just stories created by men, throughout ages, after the Vedas. The entire concept of OIT depends on the Puranas, which are just bedtime stories! For example, it is evident that the Mahabharata predate the Ramayana, while the opposite is supported by the OIT proponents.

    Lastly, I am a student of pure science, not of history (which is still one of my favourites though). Like mathematical models are used every single day in physics to connect our set of observations, we must construct elegant logical models to explain events of history. And the logic behind AMT is strong, while that behind OIT is weak.

    So my humble request to all proponents of OIT, please construct a model first and then dare to challenge another model already much superior to what you can ever hope to build using the chaotic pieces of ‘evidence’ you guys have gathered.

    Thanking everyone,
    Anirban Chatterjee

    • Dave Mowers

      And the biggest clue is the coloring of Hindu deities as blue!

      Phoenicians traded in silver. They used silverware, which is where we get it from, and amphora, cups and cookware all made of silver. Ingesting silver, over long periods of time, turns human skin; BLUE. Silver is a very poor quality metal to use for food as it breaks down easily.

      Argyria; Google it.

  16. Zyke

    Nice info. But with regard to some of your comments elsewhere, I object to your labelling all Hindus as ‘Indian Nationalists’. Call them Hindutva proponents but don’t call them just ‘Hindu’. Only a small number of ‘Hindus’ are radical and extreme. Most people honestly don’t even care. And as regards to their ‘shitty’ culture, you are well advised to learn something about it before yapping. And as for the ‘Hindu”s hate of the West, just for some random radical on the internet, NObody cares. Your ignorant labelling of Indians is condemnable.

    • Almost all Indian Hindus are Hindu nationalists, and almost all of them are Hindutvadis in one way or the other. Indian Hindus by their very nature are frankly radical and extreme, at least those I have run into.

      Hinduism sucks, Hindu culture sucks, India sucks, and Indian culture sucks. Yeah, it’s shitty. India is shitty because Indians are shitty. No other conclusion is possible. Most of the Indians from India I have met do indeed harbor a lot of hatred for the West. It’s a fact.

      And you’re banned.

      Merry Christmas!

      • Jack

        Buhahahaha! That guy was trying to please you. And it’s his Karma that he got banned for that! SO MUCH WIN!!!!!!! HE called Hinduvadis ‘shitty’ & you called him shitty & I LOVEEEEE THAT!!!!!!!!!! Hoorah

      • yuva yuva

        FUCK UUUU ASSOLE

      • Manny

        Hindutvadies? You say that like its a bad thing Robert?

        Tsk Tsk 🙂

      • Manny

        Let me see if I can bring a reasonable explanation to this issue. I can totally understand the emotional outburst of Indians who are unable to engage in reasonable debate with someone just because they disagree with out “attacking” the person.

        Many Hindus do look down up on the whites and white culture because they genuinely believe white culture aka christian culture in inferior.

        I for one don’t hate white people.. People are people.. I like white people as much as I like black people.. I do not see white people any worse than black people..

        But in all honestly I do not look at the christian culture in any positive way. I have nothing but contempt for christian doctrine and culture. At the same time I so admire western culture that goes back to the Greek civilization that gave us logic and a way to articulate the sense of reasoning.

  17. Jack

    Well. You are desperate to prove that “indians & esp. barhmins are just like us”. We are NOT. Now to answer your point #35, Britons did gain a lot from the theory. First off Brahmans resisted them, by this theory this resistance was shunned saying “hey you are one of us”. Secondly Christians gained a lot out of it too. They proposed that “Brahmins i.e. whites shall abolish idolatry & praise our one true God”. And then with help of this theory Mahatma Phule started a movement named “Brahmin-hater”. This movement was against Brahmans. It still persists here in India just because of this bullshit medieval theory. Also, since logistics were terrible back then, such theories gave “CHEAP LABOR” as Brainwashed Indians made good employees. Hence, unlike in America, Brits didn’t have to ship settlers from Britain to India. The clerical work & army both easily filled up by Indians who indeed fought against Indians. And you ask, what would Brits gain? Well they gained a lot. And especially with their motto of “Divide & Conquer”, Reference: Indian history :1) Prarthana Smaj 2) Phule, Brahman-hater movement 3) Shahu, Brahman-hater movement. 4) Rama Ranade, Catholicism.

    • Manny

      Brahmins are not anywhere like white christians..white christians eat all kinds of shit and think they are awesome..Brahmins are pure vegetarians and look down on white christians as untouchables.,

  18. Manny

    Aryan Migration Theory (AMT?

    I was taught Aryan Invasion theory in my Catholic school.

    So what happened to the “Invasion” theory?

  19. Nationalist

    The Aryan race itself does NOT exist, the “Indo-Aryan” thing is another bullshit that rose up just before the “white Aryan” theory rose up.

  20. allimcbiel

    I came across this new video… Very interesting.

    • allimcbiel

      Sanskrit should be taught in Europe. So European children can learn about their roots from mother India.

      Oh yeah! Never mind..its already happening

      • Murphy

        Yep Hindus get an erection from getting approval from the Europeans. This proves nothing – in fact, give it twenty years – let’s see where the Hindus are then 🙂

        The whole world knows you Hindus are anti-Christian, Western-hating sorts and you have no cohesive structure in your society. Let’s see how your society and religion survives with the countless enemies you’ve made.

        This is a challenge to silly Hinduism – good luck 🙂

        • allimcbiel

          Hindus are not anti christian, Hindus are anti conversion and anti bigotry of the jealous god you fuckers try to spread.

          If you pray to Jesus or Allah it would not chaff the butt of Hindus. But if you spport the Vatican or evangelical organizations around the world to pull an “onward christian solder, that would rightly be considered a religious war declared by christians on the Hindus

          Just like Christians took up arms against Islamic invasion of Western Europe, Hindus have every right to take up arms against Christians to self defend from these Christian war declared on them

        • Sri

          Murphy is a low life toilet cleaning troll

      • allimcbiel

        But the fact is, its very interesting to know the reasonableness of this theory that Europeans originated in South Asia and Sanksrit is their mother tongue.

        It’s practically Newtonian.

        But I an also see that wouild totally chaff the butts of the christian and Islamic arseholes!

  21. Brahmin

    As a Brahmin, I believe in the Aryan migration theory 100%. Northern European admixture in South Asian group per the Harappa database:
    Uttar Pradesh Brahmins: 12%
    Rajasthani Brahmin: 12%
    Punjabi Jats: 12%
    Haryana Jats : A whopping 18%
    Pashtuns: 11%
    Nepalese-a : 13% (highest among the Brahmins)

    https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AuW3R0Ys-P4HdDhib1M5OE1wWENNb2haUFFWZzNBMEE#gid=0

    Now, Iranians and Kurds don’t have much because they did not have the caste system. However, you will notice that they do have higher Northern European component compared to their Middle Eastern peers. For example, Assyrians have virtually no Northern European admixture, whereas Iranians are at 4-5%.
    Another thing to note is that the Muslim community have lower Northern European component compared to their Hindu/Sikh counterparts. Compare for example the Pakistani Jats to Punjabi Jat Sikhs.
    Even Tamil Brahmins are at 5%.
    If this isn’t proof of Aryan migration, then what is?
    What you will notice is that the Northern European admixture decreases as you go down the caste ladder, with Brahmins having some of the highest. The exception is NW India where Jats and Khatris have elevated NW European.

    • Brahmin

      P.S. The database is posted here. It is based on genetic analysis :

      http://www.harappadna.org/

    • Nice to meet a sane person. Pleasure to meet you, my Indian friend.

    • Aakash

      Interesting post. I agree that the Aryans migrated to India rather than the contrary.

      However, the highest percentage you have shown is 18% and that too for one group. Including caucasian along with NE european in your google doc, it comes to a maximum of around 27%.

      If the Aryans brought the caste system along with them, and knowing that Indians tend to marry within their caste, you’d see far higher admixtures: at least 50% more prevalent in the “higher” castes (caucasian and NE european combined). Ergo it stands to reason that there must have been some kind of a Caste / Jaat based system existing before and the Aryans mixed and intermarried into those bringing down the percentage and stabilizing around the 20 percent mark.

      That is the dirt old question for me anyway.

      Just like Hindu extremists are vested in propagating an OIT theory, muslim and christian crazies have used and continue to use the Aryan “Invasion” theory to further their conversion efforts or to defend their brutality. There really is nothing to it. Aryan migration happened but not in any drastic terms. No shudra holocaust occurred. No dravidians were killed en masse and aryan-dravidian wars are unheard of.

      Thats my last word on this.

      • Brahmin

        Moorjani et al. dated the admixture event between ANI (ancestral North-Indian) and ASI(Ancestral South Indian) to between 1900 to 4200 years ago. Since then various castes have not mixed that much. See below:
        http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0002929713003248

        Something caused the two divergent populations to mix. In that paper, Moorjani did not separate the various West Eurasian components, and lumped them all together. Because what you will notice is that the Baloch component is the highest component in Northern South Asians as well as in Brahmins. The Baloch component is very close to the Caucasian component in terms of fst distance. However, a paper by Metspalu et al found that this particular component has been in India for at least 12,500 years.
        So it seems to me that the ANI component is the Neolithic farmer component. Frankly, it could even be paleolithic. We don’t know the details yet. The Baloch component peaks in Baloch people of Pakistan/Iran. However, after that, it peaks in Northern South Asian populations like Sindhis, Punjabis, etc.
        The point here is that something caused the two ancestral populations to mix. Was it Aryan migration? Invasion? We don’t know to be honest.
        Jats claim Scythian ancestry as we know. So their high Northern European makes sense quite a bit.
        Also, the various Kurgan cultures of Europe has been associated with Y-dna R1a. This is the Y-DNA found in the majority of Brahmins. For example, >70% of Bengali brahmins carry this haplogroup. Scythians from the Andronovo region too have been found to belong to the same haplogroup.
        Nonetheless, the actual “Aryan” ancestry isn’t the largest ancestry in modern Brahmins. The largest autosomal ancestry is the Baloch, which is the Dravidian component.
        What you will also notice in that database is that the Brahui (who were assumed to have migrated from somewhere South in India) have even higher Baloch than the actual Baloch people. So that to me tells me that the Brahui are the last remaining population of the original dravidians.
        The South Indian component would be the hunter-gather component. This component is modal in South Indian tribal types.
        As far as the Aryans are concerned, they were themselves mixed. I would assume they were a three-way mix between Northern European, Cacasian (as in people from the Caucasus) and some Arctic (i.e. Siberian/Native Ameican). I would say no more than 10% Arctic, because you find this component in Jats as well Brahmins. It also makes sense that the Andronovo Scythians who were genotyped were primarily R1a, but some were Y-DNA C, although not C3.
        People have been mixing for eons. For example, Europeans are a three-way mix between EEF (Farmers), ANE (North Eurasian) and WHG (hunter gatherer). I am citing the Laziridis paper that came out just a few weeks ago. So people have been mixing for centuries.
        Hell, humans even mixed with Neanderthals. For example, I am 2.8% Neanderthal according to 23andme.

        • Brahmin

          A paleolithic Siberian boy who died 24,000 years ago was found to belong to Y-DNA R, and mtdna U.
          http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/vaop/ncurrent/full/nature12736.html

          The mal’ta boy is used as a representative of Ancestral North Eurasian by Lazaridis et al.
          So there is a possibility that ANE is what brought the indo-european language to europe.
          R1a and R1b are linked with indo-european expansion, however, the thing is they haven’t been found in ancient European samples. So clearly, these haplogroups came from somewhere else. I say from somewhere east. Folks like this Siberian boy also contributed DNA to native Americans. So Native Americans are a two-way mix between Ancestral North Eurasians and East Asians.

          So what’s the big deal if South Asians are mixed? I got no problem with that at all. Everybody is mixed. Humans have always mixed.

      • Aakash, You said ” muslim and christian crazies” used brutality to convert people. Can you show me history where Christians used brutality? If ever anyone was brutal, it was the upper class santan Dharma religionists on the Sudra people who are the real people of India.

    • K

      The fair skinned quality can also be explained by the saka entry into india in the first century ‘AD’

      • Dave Mowers

        Right, the Sacae Celtic Tribe from the Caucasus was the first migratory invasion. Their brethren, the Getae went west into eastern Europe becoming the Dacians, Slavs, Thracians.

      • Dave Mowers

        The Sacae invaded India before their ancestors went west into Europe circa 4,000-5,000 B.C. The Scythians invaded and settled Egypt between 3,000-4,000 B.C.

    • Sphinx

      Northern European admixture in South Asian group per the Harappa database:
      Uttar Pradesh Brahmins: 12%
      Rajasthani Brahmin: 12%
      Punjabi Jats: 12%
      Haryana Jats : A whopping 18%
      Pashtuns: 11%
      Nepalese-a : 13% (highest among the Brahmins)

      1. African-americans have more northern european admixture than any of the above, at around ~20%.

      2. The jats, who have the highest northern euro admixture, belong to the lowest caste of hinduism, the sudras. Sudras are non-aryans by definition. The current Prime Minister of India is also a sudra. The majority of Sikhs are of jat sudra origins.

  22. Brahmin

    Nice to meet you as well. I like sticking to the truth. I sent my raw 23andme data to Harappa, and I am 12% Northern European.

  23. Anirudh

    I am with you on this…We migrated here from eastern europe I guess…

    I am a haryanvi branhmin

    • Sphinx

      We migrated here from eastern europe I guess…I am a haryanvi branhmin

      Hilarious. Dude you got 2 to 3 times more black aboriginal blood (ASI) than european. Lol at the wannabe.

  24. Hi Robert,
    I created a video about Aryan Migration. Your feedback is much appreciated… Thank You…

  25. The best evidence for the Aryan Invasion Theory is the fact that Sankaracharya, avatar of Hinduism, had little to contribute in his voluminous commentaries on the ancient scriptures and often had no clue what many verses were talking about. The Upanishads are certainly a product of the Aryan mind.

  26. Yousef Ali

    Came to this site by chance. The analysis presented by the author is sound and logical – AMT, by far is the most plausible theory.

    Unfortunately, the author has shamelessly portrayed his hatred of India and Indians in the most denigrating manner. And the ‘banning’ and name calling is most reprehensible – this just takes out the objectivity of the otherwise, well- reasoned article.

    I would encourage the author to be more sensitive and objective in dealing with a myriad of opinions that range from ‘you got to be kidding’ to ‘wow’.

  27. K

    Now is see where the confusion comes from. There was no OIT either. There was no outward or inward aryan migration.

  28. Robert,
    My question was that if A North Indian migrated to Europe and lived thrre for say 40 or 50 years.Would there be a change in the phenotype and if he married a white lady,would their child look 100% white?

    • Of course there would be no change in phenotype. Lysenkoism does not exist.

      I am not sure what the child would look like. Never seen a 1/2 European, 1/2 Indian person.

      • Hmm… It all depends! In USA, there are plenty! They will look mixed. It is just the same in my own family back in India. My maternal grand father was reasonably pale and my paternal grandfather was dark. We are in between. I do not know how people are of different color in in a small endogamous caste. There are two possibilities : (1) Some soldiers letting themselves loose. (2) According to the most racist book named Manu Smirti, uppclass men can copulate with Sudra women and children of such unions were not recognized in the upper castes but remained with the moms, uncles and aunts. This is the reason I hate Sanskrit and Aryan people of India. These are bastards.

    • If an Indian had a child with a white European, their child would look mixed race or Indian. If that child then had a child with a white European, that child would still look mixed / Indian.
      Would these children be European culturally? In Indian-European marriages it is usually the Catholic European who assimilates into Indian culture, so the answer is, most likely no. The children would be raised on Indian food, with Indian language and religion.

  29. Siv

    Except the most recent genetic studies disprove the Aryan Invasion Theory *and* the Out of India Theory, both can be easily searched online. Too bad for North Indians who are so desperate to prove a unique and untainted European ancestry, but I understand why they have such an intense racial inferiority complex. Not only does this silly theory disprove the indigenous claims of these people (even with the perks of less than half-arsed ‘white’ genes), it makes the case that a far inferior people (in terms of civilisation) destroyed a highly complex, urbanised and advanced indigenous civilisation. So, it’s a hodge podge of political issues. Apparently, Indians want the cake and eat it, too.

    To hurt their white wannabe-ness more, it so happens that there is more similarity between Sanskrit and Tamil than was previously thought, pointing to a common origin for the two languages.

    I don’t know who this author is, but over the last 50 years, scientists have been pouring over the mystery of this Aryan Invasion that seems to have almost no evidence, and largely stems for obsolete works by European Aryan supremacists. Even Max Muller’s works are greatly misunderstood by Indians who’re more interested in politicising the issue (Dravidians want to support AIT to claim North Indians are outsiders and should fuck off, and North Indians want to prove OIT to prove they are indigenous or they want to embrace AIT so they can pretend they are European, but will seldom imbibe the cordiality, rationality or civility of the people they so desperately hope to be)

    “The blackest Hindus represent an earlier stage of Aryan speech and thought than the fairest Scandinavians” Muller

    This stems from the very misunderstanding of the word ‘Aryan’.

    Take Harappa: they spread over regions larger than the Mesopotamian or Egyptian civilisation. So, how does such a huge civilisation spread over vast regions just up and leave due to some nomadic bands of morons from Europe and Middle East? It is common knowledge now that it was natural disaster that knocked the civilisation. Yale did a study few years ago about how some 2000 years BC, a 300 year drought screwed civilisations in all these regions.

    See, Ancestral North Indians did *migrate* from Central Asia, Middle East, Caucasians and Europe and Ancestral South Indians probably migrated from the aboriginals of Australasia (there is a striking similarity between Sri Lankan groups and current Australian Aboriginals). But this was thousands and thousands and thousands of years ago.

    However, from 1900 to 4000 years ago, they rabidly boned each other, making the Indian population healthier, more diverse, until the caste system made endogamy the norm, and we into full retard mode. So, before 4000 years no mass mixture, then mass mixture, then endogamy. Now, there is almost *no one* in India who has the genetic makeup of ANI or ASI – they’re all mixed up, which means all Indians have some level of European, Middle Eastern, Caucasoid or Central Asian ancestry. Harvard’s study of the Indian genome showed that all samples had an admixture of ANI and ASI genes in varying levels, and the difference is largely in geography, with the North groups showing more recent and heavy admixture, and the South groups show older.

    You see, had there been strict non-mixture right from the beginning, then we’d have been disease-ridden by now, and a smaller population. In the Middle East, Arab genetic studies show they have the highest prevalence of genetic abnormalities due to crazy levels of endogamy that was never halted for exogamy. We would have seen this if such a thing as ‘Dravidian’ and ‘Aryan’ existed.

    So, guess North Indians got some dirty Dravidian in them, and Dravidians got this unicorn mixture of European and Caucasoid ancestry. Too bad everybody is a moron. I suppose the dumbass gene is strong is the entire population.

    • The Aryan Invasion Theory is simply fact, and the vast majority of Western scholars accept it as such. In fact, the debate about this ended in the West a long time ago. It is only Indians who do not accept this theory. Also Tamil is most certainly not related to Sanskrit. I have an MA in Linguistics, and that statement is just not true.

      Recent genetic studies have not overturned the AIT theory at all, it is just that Indians insist that they did when in fact they did not.

      • Robert is right. The Aryan Invasion History of India (don’t call it a “theory”, that’s a Hindu Nationalist lie) is the correct history of India. The Indo-Aryans invaded from Central Asia, and destroyed the indigenous Dravidian civilizations there. Best example being Indus Valley. The Indo-Aryans conquered what is now North India, and imposed their foreign languages, religion, and culture on the natives. Because of the brutality of the conquest and later oppression, the Dravidian languages have been wiped out. The population in the Aryan North is a vast mixed race that is completely Aryanized.

        Later on in “Indian” history, those Indo-Aryans were conquered, and put under the Islamic yoke. Hindu Nationalism seeks to revive the old Aryan India that was defeated by both the Muslims and the British. However, the Dravidians in the South oppose the Aryan North. So the Aryans are now trying to rewrite history and deny the Aryan invasion, and even propose the idiotic OIT. Because the Aryan Invasion History is what will lead to Dravidian independence and India being split in two.

        • Thank you my Dravidian brother. Everything you say here history-wise is 100% true. As far as the politics goes, I will not comment on it.

        • No problem, Robert. If you need assistance at any time, know that I’ve got your back.

        • Hi Dravidian, You are 100% correct. The so called “Aryans” of India want to have the cake, kick the uncle and eat it too! They want to preserve the caste system, they want to wipe out the Muslims and hate the Christians because Caldwell identified the South Indians to be a separate historic peoples. The “Aryan” Indians are insane in claiming that “Vedas” did not create caste system. We know very well that the 4 class system quickly degenerated into 1000 caste system. Ramayanam and Mahabaratham or for that matter Bagwat Gita or any Sanskrit literature is full of casteist material denigrating the Sudra peoples. The modern day “Sanskritans” are caught in this bind. They are even almost ready to disown “Manu Smirti” the most despicable book ever written! They are attacking from every side. They say Tamil is derived from Sanskrit, Sanskrit is the mother of all languages, all Indians are of the same DNA extract and all the bull shit. I am of the opinion that unless India operates as a “federation” it is doomed. Fact is Aryans came from outside and Sanskrit language came from outside.

        • Gunzo Gunzo,

          Thanks for your support. Are you a Dravidian, by any chance? Anyway, India is not going to be a federation. Hindu Nationalism has ruined that. There is only one correct path, and that is the path to freedom: Dravidian Independence. Tamil is not derived from Sanskrit. Tamil is a Dravidian language, and Sanskrit is Indo-Aryan. Sanskrit is an alien language brought in by invaders, and that’s what explains its presence in Dravidian/Australoid lands. Hindi is a vulgar dialect of Sanskrit, just like Spanish/Italian is a vulgar dialect of Latin.

          If you are a Dravidian, then support the Dravidian movement. If not, you can help spread awareness of the true history of Hinduism, and help liberate the low castes in the North. It’s a great stupidity that the vast majority of North Indians have elected Modi, a racist bully. They keep trying to identify with the past conquerors. It would be like Mexican mestizos pretending they are descendants of Spanish Conquistadors, rather than sons and daughters of rape.

          The Hindu Caste system is racist, and Hindu Nationalism and Hindu society is racist. There is no denying that. The native Australoid population is treated terribly. It’s one of the reasons why Islam was so powerful on the subcontinent. Hinduism is a Satanic evil that must be fought and opposed, no other way around this.

  30. Lindsay, in the above you have one statement which says “Also Tamil is most certainly not related to Sanskrit (which I as a native speaker of Tamil completely attest it)”. However, you are following this with the sentence ” I have an MA in Linguistics, and that statement is just not true”. What exactly are you saying?

  31. raj sher

    In sanskrit the names of family relations are, mater piter brater svaster puter duhiter nuhiter jamater. In persian , mader pider brader khawaher piser dukhter. In english , mother father brother sister son daughter. The names are most perfect in sanskrit. They all end in ter. In persian and english there is a change. These names are manmade and costructed. They are not natural because they all end in ter. These names were spread in the indo european world in manmade and costructed form. The so called pie theory is nonsence. These names were costructed by the aryan linguists of the ivc. Ivc is aryan civilisation. Therefore, sanskrit is the original ie language.

    • LOL oh great, another crazy Indian Hindu nationalist.

    • Dave Mowers

      “Ter,” is a magnifier that comes from the Celtic language. It is the same as King Arthur who probably was once just known as Arthur because to call him, “King,” is to double the surname-qualifier which would be silly in more ancient times. It would be like calling your Dad my, “Father-Art-Dad,” but it could go two ways with, “Arthur,” as “High, Noble,” “Tor,Ter,Thur,” which means, “Mountain,” in Celtic so he is the man whom is known as, “The High Mountain King,” which thereby, in later Celtic, makes perfect sense.

      “Father Mountain,” would be a way of saying this particular man is to our family the, “Highest ranking individual,” or “father to us all.” I think the word, “Piter,” thus reinforces the Aryan Migration Theory showing that native or aboriginal India(n)s had an existing language that was combined with the early P.I.E.-descended Celtic.

      “Pati,” “master,” -Sanskrit
      “Pashu,” “father,” -Sanskrit
      “Pha-Ter” “Father,” -P.I.E.
      “Peter, Petra” “Rock, Mountain” -Latin
      “Pashi,” “Rock, stone,” -Sanskrit

      Pater, Patri, Pere, Padre, Patros, Patris, Patrios, Pap, Pappa, Tat, Tata, Pappare, Vater, Voten, Faôir, Pasha, Pati, are all variations of eachother.

      The root Pha(s)(e) becomes variations of high, noble, shining, lord, master and king once anthropomorphized into a mythical character.

      So Thor with his hammer is a mountain-man with hammer just like Hephaestus is a lord on a mountain who hammers out weapons for the gods. The, “hammer,” symbol is identical to the Minoan axe symbol for god and the crucifix for Jesus.

    • You crazy raj sher, the original “Indian” words for ” mother father brother sister son daughter” were “Thayee, Thanthei, Thambi / Anna, Thamakkai/Thangi/Akka / , Mahanu, Mahalu”. All the words you said are coming from a foreign source. That is why Aryans are not true Indians and they came from far away places.

  32. raj sher

    Aryas were brown and north indian. If you look at the statues of greek kings in iran and north india they look white european. But if you look at the statues of iranian kings they look brown and north indian. If iranian aryas came fron europe their statues should look white european. It snows in north india in kashmir north punjab north balochistan and afghanistan. The north indian people are naturally light coloured. During ice age it used to snow all over north india. In indika the greeks call the north indians white indians and say that they look like europeans. In megasthenes indika north india or afghanistan is called aryana. In vedas aryavarta is between himalyan mountains and vindhya mountains. The ancestor of aryas came from mount meru in afghanistan and his descendants founded and ruled the indus valley civilisation. The south indian people came to the north india to work as labour force in the fields and towns and cities and factories and workshops of ivc. Naturally they brought there languages with them and left some influence on north indian languages including sanskrit.

    • Dave Mowers

      “Aryas,” is formed from the Sumerian root words, “Ar,” and “Ea,” both of which are found in Celtic languages. “Aryan,” from the Sumeria, “Uru-Anna,” is later since we find, “Ar,” in use also in Hindu mythology in, “Maruts, Charits, Harits.”

      Rhea, Gaia -Greek

      Uru-anna as the character root origin of, “Orion,” which contains the Sumerian word for both, “man,” and “north,” and “place,” “Oro,Uru,Ur” so too you find, “Uru,” as, “man,” in the ancient Sanskrit word for king, “Puru,” with the ‘P’ as a, “father,” name qualifier. so that what it says is, “Man’s Father,” or father to all men; king.

      “Oro,Ori,Orc,Oct,Och,” all meaning, “eight,” and as, “infinity,” as a symbol, “to go round, continue.” An inference of motion.

      “Ar,As” are fundamental Sumerian root words which give us the other suggested definition of, “Ar,” as, “High, Noble, Above, Lord, King,” and ultimately in Greek and Celtic the word for star. ‘Ar-e-as’ or ‘Ar-Ea’s’ those whom exist in the, “Heavenly Waters of Ea,” or to be concise, “stars.”

      This is Celtic and unless you are making the claim that Hindus taught language to Celts then I assume you must be wrong etymologically.

      • raj sher

        T. Burrow is a great scholar and linguist. I have read his book entitled “sanskrit”. He could not find the ie dialect anywhere in europe. In the end he said that it is an east iranian dialect. East iran is as far as he was willing to go. He did not have the courage to go to north india. The arabs call the numerals hindse meaning indian. Numerals come from india from the ivc. They are almost same in all the ie languages with some variations due to local diallects.

    • raj sher, you are a sucker. Just explain why there are blacker people in UP and Bihar who are classified and kept in Sudrahood while the paler group in the same municipality in UP and Bihar! Fact is that these people came from far away counties as immigrants and most probably as attackers with swift horses. Local population did not have horses. Hypothetically, if America wants the Indian masses to surrender and keep quiet, even dropping of the bombs would not be necessary; just a show of the bombs will do the tricks. The Aryans had a superior technology at that time and the locals lost the wars and are suffering even today and undergo this ignominy of Sudrahood, untouchability etc. Oh, sucker, where is the evidence that south Indian people came to North India as laborers, you fool.

  33. raj sher

    The mesopotamians have described the iranian arvarni arvari royal tribes as dark haired dark eyes brown skin and medium height. If iranian aryas were white european their description should have been white hair blue eyes white skin and tall stature. There are references in the vedas about aryan tribes migrating to north. According to ait or amt king indra destroyed the ivc. After a few centuries king indra became a deity in india. The mittanis used to worship indra. The mittanis must have come from india otherwise why would they be worshipping indra. The language of mittanis is in punjabi accent.

  34. raj sher

    In the indika it says that” the indians do not construct monuments for the dead, for they think that virtues of men are enough to perpetuate their memory after their death, as well as the songs which they sing in their honour”. About ivc the archeologists and historians are sayin that” the people of ivc did not build massive monuments like their contemporaries, nor did they bury riches among their dead in golden tombs”. Their Iis no conclusive evidence of palaces or temples. If you put two and two togetheryou can make a connection that both the aryas and the Iivc people are one and the same people because both of them did not beleive in building massive monuments for their kings and emperors. The puranas the epics the vanshavalis the harishcharita and parthviraj rasso are monuments of our aryan kings and emperors. This is how we have kept their memories alive for thousands of years. The ivc people were great architects great builders great plumbers great mathematicians and great linguists. They did not beleive in writing. They beleived in memorising all the knowledge. Both aryas and ivc people are one and the same people.

    • raj sher,

      IVC is Dravidian. Aryans are foreign invaders who are incapable of building a civilization as advanced as the IVC. They are Hindu Barbarians. They are not the same people as the Dravidian people. Don’t try to appropriate our glory, North Indian. North Indians are trash with no cultural or scientific achievements.

      • I dunno man, horse and chariot were pretty kickass advancements. I will say one thing for the Aryans. They were kickass warriors, I will give them that much.

        • I hope I’m not confusing people. Aryan meaning Indo-Aryan. A person who racially resembles somebody like Rajiv Gandhi or Jawaharlal Nehru. These Indo-Aryans are also associated with (highly annoying) words and phrases that sound “Indian” like Raj, Rashtra, Patel, Gandhi, Puneet, Amar, Rahul, etc.

          These “Indo-Aryans” are not to be confused with “Aryans” as referred to by Hitler, Nazis, or White Nationalists. Aryans in this context refers to pure-blooded White Europeans. Sometimes I use “Aryan” instead of “Indo-Aryan” when I fight against the Hindu trash, who I hate deeply. I am not referring to White Europeans. Indo-Aryans are NOT White Europeans. In fact, the term Aryan is much more accurately suited to Persia/Iran. The enemies of the Dravidian people are Hindu North Indians, not White Europeans.

          Hindu North Indian foreign garbage are invaders. They are of a different race than the vast majority of people on the subcontinent. But they refuse to recognize the independence of these nationalities, and seek to wipe out their culture with Hinduism, and their language with Hindi. It is cultural genocide, and Modi and the BJP are the main culprits behind it, along with supporting Hindu Nationalist (terrorist/fascist) orgs like RSS, and VHP.

        • narselvam

          Also as far as your hatred against so called Hindus, Remember fuckface, much of what we know as Hindusim is native. The numerous practices in Southern states like Piercing the tongue with alagu, Piercing through ears, cheeks and other devotional practices are still retained. Lord Muruga, Shiva worship originated here. Lingam excavations are found in IVC. Yoga developed in India and it is related to lord shiva. Theres also not evidence to point that buddhism was widely prevalent in south india. Many hindu temples in Kerala and TN were once Buddhist temples. There is a history that pallavas exterminated buddhism which was rampantly all over in south india to reestablish shiv worship or saivism. So if you want to hate over all the hindus, you must hate over 90% of your own people who willingly exterminated buddhsim. Also when you trace back your ancestry some centuries you must certainly have been a saivite or vaishnavite(which ofcourse came after 8th century AD) so stop hating on the basis of a practice you have no idea of, that makes you look like a lunatic

        • Hinduism is not native, idiot narselvam. It was brought in by foreign Aryan barbarians. Hindus are foreign to the subcontinent. Whatever that is native has been stolen by the foreign Hindu Aryans. Do not confuse indigenous Dravidian faiths with Aryan Hinduism. I don’t deny that Hinduism has creeped it’s way into Dravidian territory, but the Dravidian Movement will make it a top priority to get rid of it, once and for all. Like Pakistan, Bangladesh, and Kashmir did.

          Idiot, I am a CHRISTIAN DRAVIDIAN. I have no ties to Hinduism or India whatsoever. I don’t know if you are a North Indian or a Dravidian, narselvam. You sound like a defender of the Indian Government and of India. If that’s the case, then I consider you my enemy. Understand, you piece of trash?

        • narselvam

          To the above loser,
          Patti Kazhuda de mone, ill respond to your garbage later when i get time. So jerk off till then… Vaykkozhivonda????

        • Shut the f-ck up, narselvam, you retard. I have no idea why you’re so aggressively defending North India. I have no idea why you defending racist parties like Modi, and the BJP. All of which are anti-Dravidian.

          If you want to kiss up to North India, then get out of the South and live in North India. Don’t you dare support North Indian imperialism and North Indian occupation to my face, you stupid mutt!

  35. raj sher

    Chinese scholar xuan zang says that “referring to the most ancient times the letters were numerous”. I think he is talking about the indus script or pre indus script. He says that at present the indian alphabet has 47 letters. He says that their were regional variations in the alphabet. Then the people forgot about the writing (indus script?). Then it was panini who modified the indus script which people had forgotten and wrote ashatadhyaya the first ever grammar in the world. It survived to the present time through memorisation. As you can see the indus script is aryan script because the ivc people were aryan people. The indus script had 47 letters and pre indus script had numerous letters.

  36. raj sher

    There is south indian language influence in europe. Tamil is extreme south indian language. In tamil the genitive case of is udaiya. In the north in punjabi is da. In the west in french is de as in bureau de change. Udaiya must have come from south into north india and then into europe by the migrating north indian aryans.

    • You’re a moron. Tamil is a Dravidian language. There was no “aryan migration” into Europe. The Aryans are foreign invaders into India. Out of India theory is just stupid nonsense. It would make sense that childlike, primitive, and stupid people like North Indians would believe a theory that makes no sense, vs the correct history because it makes them feel bad.

    • narselvam

      Correct Raj, Tamil is the ancient most language and that’s from where all other languages originated. Tamil is the greatest language of all. All other languages in south india are false. They are nothing but pretentious. They developed nothing. Their languages cannot even be termed as languages they just borrowed words from Tamil anad are speaking a hybridized corrupt language

    • What an extension from Chennai to Paris! Both the Chennaite and the Parisians would be dumbfounded by your theory!

  37. raj sher

    The aryan king lists go back about 500 generations. Normally there are 30 years in one generation. But for kings it is between 20 to 25 years. If we multiply 500 by 20 it gives us 10000 years. The aryan kings started ruling in 8000 b.c. If the aryas did come from central asia middle east or europe then they came in 8000 b.c. and they founded and ruled the ivc. In the chandarvanshi and surajvanshi king lists you can see the names of the 7 rishis who wrote the 7 books in the rigveda. The 7 books were written over a period of at least 60 generations from brahma to krishna. They were compiled into one book rigveda by the rishi vyasa at the time of mahabharat. The 7 books of rigveda were written over a period of at least 1800 years before the war of mahabharat.

  38. raj sher

    The epigraphic evidence for mauryas are their coins and rock edicts and pillar inscriptions. For the greeks their coins. For the scythians and kushans their coins and inscriptions. For the guptas their coins and inscriptions. For hunas their coins and inscriptions. For muslims and british their coins and buildings. But where is the epigraphic and inscriptional evidence for aryas. The aryas have left massive literary evidence the vedas the puranas the upnishads the brahmanas the vanshavalis the epics the ayurveda the science of buildings and loads of other sciences. But where are the aryan coins. Where are the aryan buildings. The indus seals are the aryan coins. The indus cities and towns and buildings are the aryan cities towns and buildings. If you look at the world currency you will find some writing some pictures of humans some animals some kings and some other things. There is writing on indus seals there are pictures of animals humans weapons trees and other things. The indus seals have all the hallmarks of a currency or coins and they are aryan coins and aryan currency.

  39. raj sher

    The mediterranean sea is natural boundry between caucasians and negroes. The red sea is boundry between negroes and brown or arab caucasians. Mongolia and siberia is natural boundry between caucasians and mongolians. In india, tibet nepal and thailand are boundry between brown indian caucasians and mongolians. Although people of middle east and south asia look brown and dark colour but they look like caucasians. It snows in kashmir north punjab north balochistan and afghanistan therefore the people have always been light coloured and caucasian. During the ice age it probably used to snow all over south asia. During the ice age there were very few people living in central asia and europe. After ice age people migrated from middle east and india to central asia and europe and populated these regions.

  40. raj sher

    Oit is correct as far as ivc people are concerned. Ivc people had trading links with mesopotamia western iran and central asia. Indus seals and artifacts have been found in mesopotamia western iran and central asia. The ivc people had gone to these places physically and had lived there as traders. At this time names of aryan gods and aryan kings have been found in mesopotamia. A horse training manual has been found containing sanskrit numerals and words. Indus seals and artifacts in mesopotamia and western iran horse training manual containing sanskrit numerals and words aryan names of kings and aryan gods all point to one conclusion that ivc people and aryans were one and the same people. I think it was a case of traders com invaders. Ivc people went to mesopotamia as traders but over a period of time became rulers. E.g. the british went to india as traders but became rulers. I think after the aryans lost power in mittani they migrated to south armenia and after a few centuries came back to iran as persians medes and achameneads and parthians. Some probably went into eastern europe and then into western europe.

    • OIT is NOT CORRECT it is garbage. Shut the fuck up.

      • raj sher

        Aryas were north dravidians. Sanskrit is north indian dravidian language. The kassites were in middle east in 2300 b.c. the ivc traders were in middle east in 2300 b.c. the indus seals were in middle east in 2300 b.c. the kassites had sanskrit names. The kassites were called asiatic ethiopians. You can read it on kassite article on wikipedia. If kassites had sanskrit names in 2300 b.c. and they were dark coloured then aryas must be dark colour too. Remeber in the aryan king lists very early on they had the name krishna which means dark colour. There is also a king called nemi the black. Of course north indian dravidians were lighter than south indian dravidians. Sanskrit is most definitely a north indian dravidian language. Kassites and mittanis having sanskrit names worshipping aryan gods indus seals and artefacts in mesopotamia and western iran indus valley people having trading colonies in middle east all points to one thing that aryaswere Iindus valley people and sanskrit is indus valley language.

      • raj sher

        Dont tell me to shut up. Read mittani kassite and indus valley seals in mesopotamia articles on wiki and then decide for yourself.

      • Aryans are not Dravidians. They are a race of foreign invaders. Sanskrit is a foreign Aryan language. It was imposed on the conquered natives of North India.

        • narselvam

          What did you just say scumbag? Do you know that throughout its development, Malayalam has been heavily influenced by the Sanskrit language, a relationship that sets Malayalam apart from other Dravidian languages such as Tamil, Kannada and Telugu. In its early development, Malayalam borrowed heavily from Sanskrit, not only acquiring many Sanskrit loan words, but also adopting various styles of spoken Sanskrit inflection.
          Sanskrit influence is evident in early inscriptions and other writings of the Malayalam language. For example, the first Malayalam language grammar, the “Lilatikalam” (or “Book of the Sacred Mark”), appeared in the 14th century and actually was written in the Sanskrit script. Sanskrit’s influence on the Malayalam language is still evident today, as the modern Malayalam script includes letters capable of representing all the sounds of both Dravidian and Sanskrit languages. Also calculus and other stuffs was not invented by you ugly chettans. So stop lying. Only language that remains clean from sanskrit is Tamil. Get a rest and jerk off to shakeela, reshma porn that’s all you’re god for fucking pig!!!!

        • raj sher

          Sanskrit is north indian language. North indian people are light coloured because it snows in kashmir north punjab north balochistan kpk and afghanistan. People of south are dark colour because of hot weather. When white european go for holidays and do sunbathing they become tanned and look like north indians. Budhist religion originated in india and spread to central asia china south east asia and far east. Christianity originated in middle east and spread to europe africa asia america and australia. Islam originated in middle east and spread to africa europe central asia and india. Aryan religion originated in india and spread to central asia middlea east and europe. The religeous languages also spread with the spread of religions. All powerful empires spread their religion language and culture abroad and colonise other coutries. Romans greeks egyptians mongols huns europeans iranians muslims christians budhists all colonised other countries. Where are the colonies of indus empire. Indusempire was very powerful empire. Indus empire also colonised other countries and spread its aryan religion aryan culture aryan language and aryan currency and artefacts abroad. Indus empire colonised central asia middle east and europe.

        • Calculus was invented by the Dravidians, narselvam, you idiot. It is a KERALITE accomplishment. It’s not “Hindu”, you have no right to appropriate our mathematical achievements. Take your false Hindu identity somewhere else, we Dravidians are proud of our Dravidian identity.

  41. To anybody who denies Aryan Invasion History:

    The two scientific studies are:
    “Genetic Evidence on the Origins of Indian Caste Populations.” (http://evolutsioon.ut.ee/publications/Bamshad2001.pdf)

    AND

    “Independent Origins of Indian caste and Tribal Paternal Lineages.” (http://rcordaux.voila.net/pdfs/05.pdf)

    From Page 1 – Summary:
    “We conclude that paternal lineages of Indian caste groups are primarily descended from Indo-European speakers who migrated from Central Asia -3500 years ago. Conversely paternal lineages of tribal groups are predominately derived from the original Indian gene pool.”

    These genetic studies are the final nail in the coffin of Aryan Invasion Deniers. Robert, I know I’ve linked you these studies previously. But just in case, I want to repost these studies so that you can use them as effective weapons against the Hindu Nationalist retards. It’s unlikely they’ll heed scientific evidence. But it will work for the vast majority of Westerners (who I admit are more highly evolved than the childish ignoramuses of India) who respect reason, logic, and science.

      • raj sher

        R1a originated in north india 18000 years ago and from north india it spread to central asia and from central asia to europe. If some r1a people came back to india so what. After all it is an indian haplogroup. I repeat again it snows in kashmir north punjab north balochistan and afghanistan. Naturally north indian people are light coloured. There is noneed to go all the way to europe to get light coloured people. In the Iranian mythology it says that a black demon came to iran anc ruled in iran. Obviously an indian. Then zohak ruled iran for a 1000 years. Zohak was also an indian. Then a white demon came to mazandran. Obviously a european king. There is the evidence for indians and europeans going to iran as invaders.

        • Wrong. The studies above indicate an origin from Central Asia, not North India. The population in North India is a foreign transplant from Central Asia, and is genetically alien to “low caste” populations and the Dravidian South. Confirming the Aryan Invasion History.

          Now we know the truth, we make sure the Dravidian people are educated about the true history of the subcontinent, and demand full fledged independence.

    • raj sher

      1500 b.c. is an imaginary date based on mere speculations. Some people have got very active imaginations. We have aryan king lists going back 500 generations in sanskrit language. We have solid evidence. You have no evidence, mere speculations.

      • I just posted two genetic studies proving that “aryans” are foreign invaders from Central Asia. This is a large proportion of the North Indian population. You are our enemies.

        • Gokul

          dravidian, bloody fuckface, we are not like you.. Go and fuck yourself. Should you dare say these in my face, i will break your face. You will not achieve anything so go home and jerk off. Scoundrel,,,

        • Gokul,

          You sound like a North Indian. We will do EVERYTHING to fight for independence from India. We will do EVERYTHING to kick out Modi, BJP and foreign Aryan barbarians. I don’t give a crap what you think. You attack or threaten the Dravidians, you will be SMASHED Gokul. We will do everything possible to fight against the real enemy: INDIA.

    • raj sher

      Dravidian if you get independence then europeans will christianise you and then wipe you out just like they wiped out australian aboriginese and american natives. If you want to get wiped out that isup to you. South Iindians have also migrated to sri lanka indonesia maldives and other islands. Why dont you bring them back to south india especially the tamils from sri lanka. South Iindians are aliens themselves. Real south Idians are australoids and andamanese. And all the indo europeans have to go back to south russia.

      • raj sher,

        We will have our independence. Dravidian matters are not the business of foreign invaders. If we supposedly get “wiped out”, then let us get wiped out. But I will make it very clear to you that your Hindu Aryan crap is FOREIGN to the Dravidian South. The subcontinent belongs to the Dravidian people. You are, and will always be, foreign invaders. So GTFO out of my country. That’s my message to BJP, Modi, and all the North Indians.

        • raj sher

          I was watching teesri azadi movie. In the movie ram went to see shambuk and bowed down before him and then asked shambuk his vansh and kul. If ram was white and shambuk was black ram would have instantly realised that shambuk was shudra. There was no need to bow down to shambuk and then ask him his vansh and kul. There was no racial difference between ram and shambuk and there is no racial difference between brahmins and shudras. The difference is social between haves and have nots between educated and non educated. What have the tribals got to do with caste. Tribals are independent and cattle owning people. And what is caste? Hereditary profession. There are rich and poor people all over the world. Haves and havenots. There are no aryas and no caste in africa but there is more poverty and ignorance in africa. There is poverty in europe too. White people do menial jobs in europe sweeping streets and cleaning toilets etc. Muslims belong to different races and colours have different languages different professions rich and poor but they all think of themselves as one nation. Why can, t the people of indian subcontinent be one nation. The movie teesriazadi is nonsence.

        • Sudhakar

          Good postsings Raj Sher,,, DO tell.

        • raj,

          Why can’t the Chinese and Europeans be one nation? Why can’t India be absorbed into the Islamic Caliphate, where Islam is the official religion, Arabic is the official langauge, and subcontinentals are third-class dhimmi?

          We are not Hindi people, raj. We have our own race, language, and culture we want to preserve. India is a threat to that. The only to protect what is ours is our own sovereign nation, Dravida Nadu.

    • RD Sultan

      Thanks for posting these studies, Dravidian.

      If I may ask: why haven’t Dravidians taken up arms against the Indian state, as the Kashmiris and Maoists have done?

      • RD Sultan, no problem. The vast majority of people in all countries are unfortunately not leaders. They are followers. And they just conform to social expectations. They also do not take the time to do independent research into their true history on their own. I also think they are too trusting and naive.

        There has to be both intellectual and physical leadership. Sound ideas along with physical fighters on the ground are the winning combination that will ignite the Dravidian revolution. The Dravidian movement is in the first phase. The intellectual phase.

        Most people don’t have the acumen and strength of will to see through the Hindu Nationalist crap. As you can see on this blog, there are loads of Hindu Nationalists who post garbage about denying the Aryan Invasion and even propose that Out of India is correct! Do you think the vast majority of Dravidians see through this? No. Only someone on the level of Robert Lindsay has been consistently defeating them throughout this blog, and seeing through their nonsense. The vast majority of Dravidians are simply stupid people, or else they would’ve fought for their independence long ago like the Pakistanis.

        The Hindu Nationalists will at first throw lies, deception, and a false “inclusive” (We are all Indians crap) nationalism which they combine with antagonism towards the West, China and Islam (Arabs plus Pakistan). They also put on an anti-leftist veneer. They hide their intolerance, racism, and cultural chauvinism for other outgroups. We at the point where the vast majority of the Dravidians have fell for these traps, or are too weak and spineless to openly resist.

        If you can get past the first set of tricks the HNs throw at you, then they show their true colors and resort to physical violence. Google RSS and you will see they are training thugs to attack their opponents. The Dravidians should be prepared to meet force with force, and blow their heads off if it comes to that. That’s how China defeated India in 1962, by punching those who attack you.

  42. raj sher

    In the shahnama firdowsi book of kings of iran it says that the art of writing was taught to iranians by black demon invaders, obviously indians. With the writing the iranians probably learnt the north indian language sanskrit as well.

  43. raj sher

    The weather of airyanam vaeja 10 months of winter and 2 months of cold summer does not exist anywhere in central asia middle east europe or caucasia. It only exists in central afghanistan. In swat there is a sci resort in malab jabba. The snow does not melt in malab jabba in the summer months of june and july.

  44. raj sher

    Robert, in point no. 22 you claim that cemetry h people practiced cremation. But the andronovo people did not practice cremation. It was the scandinavians who practiced cremation. I think the cemetry h people and pirak people were a spent force by the time they reached north india. I think they might be the takshak people who invaded india after the mahabharata war. In sindh they founded a town called tapala.

    • I do not want to argue with you, guy. The whole world believes in the Aryan Invasion Theory. It’s proven by science. Only crazy anti-scientific Indians reject it. I do not debate science with anti-scientific Indians.

      • raj sher

        I, myself used to beleive in ait until I read tod, s annals vishnu puran aryan king lists megasthenes indika and chinese scholar xuan zang,s book history of western regions And t.burrow,s book sanskrit. The present day punjabi language is very near to vedic sanskrit as I could understand some of the vedic sentences in macdonell, s rigveda. The problem is that vedic sanskrit is in poetry. And in poetry the sentence structure is always different than normal spoken structure. In poetry the sentences are shortened and words twisted in order to rhyme. In the hymn of rigveda about a gambler who has lost everything all his family disowns him. This is the verse” mata pita bhrata enam ahur na jani mo”. mother father brother say to him we dont know you. In punjabi” mata pita brata enoo akhun (say to him) na jana mein(I dont know). In punjabi enam ahur has become enoo akhun and na jani mo has become na jana mein. I would say present punjabi Is colloquial vedic sanskrit. The mittanis were using satta for number 7 and after 3500 years the punjabis are still using satta for seven. The mittanis came from punjab.

  45. raj sher

    The aryas were not nomadic or pastoral people. Aryas were royal people. Aryas belonged to chandarvanshi and surajvanshi royal families. Aryas were the indian royalty. Aryas were kings and landlords and warriors. On the other hand the writers of vedas were poor people the rishis who had their ashrams outside the cities in a grove where they used to teach their students. In the evenings the students used to go to towns and villages to beg for food. Rishi vishvamitra was royal priest of king sudas. After vishvamitra rishi vashist became royal priest of king sudas. Rishi kanwa was royal priest of king bharat. The reason there is imagery of village and rural life in vedas is because the the rishis preferred to live in groves in rural areas outside cities and towns. Rishi vishvamitra gave up his kingdom to his grandson and eent into the jungle to do meditation and became a brahmrishi. Dont forget rishis were kavis or poets and they used to give up family life go into jungles and do meditation. Obviously their poetry will contain rural imagery. The rishis used to own cattle for their livelihood which they used to keep in their ashrams. The rishis were not kings or lanlords or business men. They were teachers only. Teaching was their livelihood. The kings and students families used to give gifts of cattle to the rishis. Throughout rigveda there is mention of kings in the hymns. But the proponents of ait turn a blind eye to it. The puranas are the history books not the vedas. But the ait beleivers turn a blind eye to the puranas. Ait people keep harping about pastoralism like a mantra. What a rhetoric. King indra was not a horse rider but an elephant rider. King porus who fought against alexander also fought on an elephant not a horse. In india elephants were preferred for fighting not horses.

  46. raj sher

    The language change is india to europe. Arya in india became airya in iran. Sapta sindhva in india became haipta haendva in iran and haendva became india in europe. Satam in india became satem in eastern europe and centum in western europe. Panja in india became panza in mittani. After 2500 years when arabs went to sindh in 7th century they called jatt tribe as zott and rajput as razbot and gujrat as juzrat. Arabs changed j of jatt and rajput and gujrat into z. In indika 2500 years ago greeks were writing brahmans as braghman and brachman. In his lecture on youtube greek scholar kazanas was saying brahmanas as braghmanas and brakhmanas. In indika the indian king of afghanistan subahusena who made peace treaty with greek king antiochas is called sophagasenas. The accents have not changed in 2500 years. English in india became angrez and french became firangi. The names of body parts are also similar in india and europe. English fart also comes from india. In sanskrit fart means pardate. Pardate became fardat and fardat became fart. Pad in sanskrit became fad and fat became foot. Pitar became pater and pader and then father. Brater became frater. Naak became nose and so on.

  47. raj sher

    In my opinion the four aryan gods of mittani mitrasil indrasil uruvanasil and nasatiyanasil may have been adopted into semetic religions as angels michael gabriel raphael and uriel. what do you think?.

    • Talk about all the Aryan Gods you want. The time is soon approaching where Modi cannot even come into the Dravidian South for fear of his life. We will absolutely make it clear that Modi is not welcome, and if he tries to invade, his life will be in danger. Any North Indian who has a problem with this will meet the same face as their brothers did in Maharashtra at the hands of Raj Thackeray.

      • raj sher

        If you are so brave why dont you liberate pak afghanistan and bangladesh from muslims.

      • raj sher

        Tipu sultan,s father haider ali single handedly enslaved south indians. It was the north indian troops under british who liberated south india from tipu sultan. Nizam of haiderabad single handedly enslaved south indians. It was the north indian army who liberated south indians from nizam of haiderabad. Soith indians couldn, t fight against a few razakars. South indian haplogroups are spreadall over central asia middle east and europe. Are you going to bring them all back to south India. If it turns out that south Indian haplogroups originated outside india then will you leave india.

        • I’m not interested in your false history, raj sher. I know you’re a liar. The British defeated Tipu Sultan with their own European troops. They don’t need North Indian trash, and the idea that North Indians could defeat someone of Tipu’s caliber is a joke. Tipu is a Dravidian, how could he enslave his own people?

          I’m not sure what your point is, raj sher. You North Indians are not our people. You are foreigners and aliens. (Post study that south indian dna is spread all over middle east, central asia, and europe.) Therefore, there can be no compromise on an independent, sovereign, Dravida Nadu for the Dravidian people.

          We don’t need or want North Indians. For anything. You have your Hindustan, we have our Dravida Nadu. It’s time for both sides to go their seperate ways.

      • raj sher

        We north indians are defenders of south asia. We stopped every invader in north india greeks bacterians parthians scythians kushan hun arab ghaznavi ghori khilji lodhi mongol pathan turk mughal and never let them go to south india. You should be thankful to north indian people. If you are christian why dont you go to christian land and leave the indian people alone. Tipu was muslim. He enslaved south indian hindus. North indians are indian people. They dont know any other homeland. But muslims know they come from middle east iran central asia and mongolia. If you ask them they will tell you which town village ward province and country they come from. But north indians only know india as their home. They dont know any other home. Europe has come together as eec. Why do you want india to separate. Remember united we stand divided we fall. Rich and poor people exist in every religion and society. So what if some indians are poor and some are rich. There are rich and poor muslims and rich and poor christians. All we need is to make india a welfare state so that wealth is distributed among every one. Just like in the indus valley times.

        • The Dravidians defended their own territory, with little or no help from North India. You were completely conquered and enslaved at the hands of second-rate Islamic raiders. These weren’t even the mighty 1st rate armies of the Arab Caliphate, Ottoman Empire, or Safavid Persia. These were petty tribal chieftains, and marauders who were more interested in plunder. You North Indians were completely enslaved to lowlife criminals and gangleaders like Muhammad Ghori.

          You North Indians were defeated by relative weaklings. Weak enemies completely had their boot on your neck for hundreds of years. By the way, it wasn’t even the British who conquered India so much as it was the British East India Company. That’s right, an English PRIVATE COMPANY. That would be like Microsoft conquering India using privately trained and armed mercenaries. I am not thankful in any way, shape, or form to North Indians. Your famed Rajputs also suck. I only respect the Sikhs, and even they want an independent Khalistan, which I support.

          North Indians are not Dravidians. Dravidians are not “Indians”. I’m all for the unity of the DRAVIDIAN PEOPLE. There was no such thing as India, and there never will be. North Indians can stay in North India. You are not going to control the South, however. Only Dravidians can govern their own people, and Narendra Modi is not our people. I only wish we Dravidians could’ve kicked your behind instead of the Muslims. But your defeat and humiliation at the hands of the Muslims is more than satisfying to me.

        • narselvam

          Raj, that piece of crap is a pusillanimous shit stain coward keyboard warrior. You dont have to take seriously about his opinion, thats certainly not a collective one. He is angry because he must have lost his prized possession to a north indian and being able to do nothing, he vents his anger out. We certainly dont have that much animosity towards anyone. I think he forgets that most of northerners working here are from lower castes, earning meagre income and toiling hard to run their daily lives. You can easily spot his insecurity by his tendency to CAPITALIZE words to lay a strong emphasis on his point which he does when his arguments fall flat on his face and especially when we dravidians dont have any such motives. Look he is defending Tipu, who was A bloody murderer who killed thousands just because they didnt follow his religion. He fails to mention empires like CHolas, Pandyas who are more revered amongst us because they followed Saivism that was the basis of hindu faith which he absolutely detests. Also dont think he loves Tipu sultan or islam he just uses these a catalyst to fuel his hatred. Truth is different, he knows. He thinks he is the only representative of that whole geographical location and passes his opinions as the collective one. Typical Indian attitude though he would hate to admit it. Also he is from a missionary you can see his posts preaching gospels when he’s tired of spilling venom. Failing targets and often frustrated to see dissents from us whom he believes authoritatively should follow whatever shit he preaches, he lets his anger out in such rubbish. He’s probably eating shit somewhere in the middle east or places like malaysia or singapore throwing his muddle headed shit from there. Should he dare say these things yo our faces, he knows people will thump his skull out and him and his cohorts will be smashed and HAMMERED out of here. So all the pussy rant. We’ve been fooled by these fake assoles far too long. They are all just imposters frauds nothing else. Even the politicians are better compared to these nasty fake conniving double crossing backward sniveling asswipes. In deep they are afraid, but They mask in a fake bravado to hide in their deep rooted hatred, Bring it on pussy, If i see your ugly beaner ass ever, Thayoli mone, Ill kick your ass so hard that your rectum will bounce of your mouth and leave you in a miserable state.

  48. Narselvam, and other pieces of garbage like him, are unfortunately that group of idiots in any group who kisses up to their oppressors. I cannot understand why that idiot continues to defend North Indians. Even going so far as threatening to attack Dravidians (including Malayalees) who stand up for their right to self-determination and independence.

    Apparently, Narselvam doesn’t realize that Kerala is under INDIAN OCCUPATION (capitalized so that idiot can pay particular attention to that important point). No amount of stupidity, hate, and threats is going to change that fact. Apparently, this retard is so sympathetic to the plight of North Indians, yet he mocks DRAVIDIANS working in places working in racist places like the Arab gulf, or Mongoloid Singapore.

    Then this butthead has the nerve to suggest my own fellow Dravidians would attack me for defending my people against North Indians and their illegal occupation of my homeland. As if your wimpy, pathetic threats are going to deter me. You suck up to North Indians because they are the ruling class. You are just a little dog, barking and yapping at me, because you think North Indians are a big dog who will back you up.

    And apparently, narselvam is a staunch defender of Aryan Hinduism, a corrupt, demonic religion brought in by Aryan invaders. A religion that led to the caste system being imposed on the Dravidian people.

    Listen you little mutt. You wouldn’t be running your mouth and talking so big if you didn’t think you had North Indians behind you. But that’s the way trash like you are. You are cowards who suck up to North Indians, idolize North Indians, and even want to protect North Indians. Try and defend your precious North Indians from me. You seem to care so much about their “plight”.

    • raj sher

      Caste is urban phenomena. Caste originated in indus valley when people learnt new skills and occupations. A father would only pass his skills occupation and trade to his son or sons. Over time people started marrying in their own occupations and caste or occupation became hereditary. Tribals and adivasis have nothing to do with caste because they are nomads and keep cattle. Their only occupation is cattle rearing. In india there are barbers and washermen and there are barbers and washermen in middle east and europe too. What is the difference. The difference is that caste is hereditary in jndia and runs in families. In muslims and christians caste can change after a few generations and nobody minds. In india if a brahmin cannot get a job as a priest then he can do some working class or shudra job. Caste is just an occupation nothing else. If kerala or khalistan becomes free then next day pak or muslims will invade and enslave them. Dravidian you should study more so that you can get better job. Then your life will be happy. Lots of south indian people work as doctors and nurses in uk europe america and middle east. They are very happy. Do you want them to go back to south india.

      • If you oppose the independence of Kerala and Khalistan, raj, then you are an imperialist. You are a colonialist. You are no different than British Imperialists.

        Kerala has already been invaded and enslaved at the hands of North Indians. If you want to do the right thing, raj, and rectify that mistake, then you would support the independence of Kerala. Instead what I’m seeing is hypocrisy. India is an imperialist country, and a colonial country.

        No, independence is the only right answer to this problem. When Dravida Nadu become a newly independent country, then the Dravidians can finally rest.

        • raj sher

          During muslim period there were 16 hindu rajput states in rajasthan with 16 capitals. Muslims had only one capital dehli. This is what made muslims strong one state with one capital. During the british rule muslims had several independent states. This made muslims weakand they could not stand against the british. Like hindus muslims became slaves of british. If you make dravida nadu it will break very easily because in south india people speak several languages and they will all want to be independent too. Then what will you do. Some foreign powers will easily enslave you. Forget about independence. Instead fight for equal opportunities and distribution of wealth. Unity is strength. America is made up of several states. If they all become independent then america wont be superpower anymore. If you want india to become superpower then stay united.

        • raj,

          I don’t care about North India. I don’t care if North India fell to the Turko-Afghans because of disunity. That would be like asking Palestinians to care about the Holocaust. Or Tibetans to care about the Japanese invasion of China. I have no sympathy for the oppressors and abusers of my people.

          I’m not sure why you keep bringing up the British. Are they going to invade and recolonize? The likelihood of that happening is slim to none. Most normal people detest racists/imperialists (not to be confused with true patriots).

          Dravida Nadu is united by a common Dravidian RACE. We are all the same blood. The Dravidian languages are like cousins within an extended family. All Dravidians will use English as the neutral link official language for communications between all four states. I have no problem is using English with Kannadigas, Tamils, and Telugus.

          India is poor because Indian economic policies STINK. The government is the problem. Tell them to get the F out of the market. America used to be part of the British Empire. When the snobbish British started disrespecting the Americans, treating them as lowly commoners, is when the Americans decided to revolt. The British would take American money, but wouldn’t let them have a voice in their government.

          Unity is strength. Unity within NATURAL bounds. Dravidians should be united because we are of common blood, and share similar languages and culture. We are not of the same blood or language as the Indo-Aryans in the North. You are foreigners to us, and I consider the Indian government to be a foreign occupation force. PM Modi is foreign to me. I don’t want India to be a superpower. India will never be a superpower. America has enough nuclear missiles to destroy every single country on this planet without sending a single soldier into battle. Even without nukes, America’s industrial base can easily churn out tanks, fighter planes, aircraft carriers, and submarines. India for 800 years was powerless against Turko-Afghan raiders on camels. India constantly needs to purchase Western weapons, it doesn’t even have the industrial base to manufacture them indigenously.

          India can’t even keep its streets clean of sewage, trash, and filth. India can’t even feed it’s population. It’s one big, open air, slum. As much as I detest Nazis and White Nationalists, they are right on one thing. India is a dump because of the Indian people. It’s genetic. It’s in the DNA. You are never going to be a superpower. Fake unity doesn’t mean much when much of the Indian people suck anyhow. There is no need for Dravidians to be chained by India anymore. It’s time for the Dravidians to obtain what has been denied to them for so long: their freedom!

        • narselvam

          “Narselvam, and other pieces of garbage like him, are unfortunately that group of idiots in any group who kisses up to their oppressors. I cannot understand why that idiot continues to defend North Indian

          Ok, you are a one-noter and your posts are just emo or frivolity type. Ill respond keeping that in mind. I fully accept AMT. It is a good scientific theory. Raj sher is a retard to deny it. I agree. Its not that people migrated before 100 years. It has happened thousands of years before the birth of christ, when there was no concept of even a nation. To use that and create rift is equally paranoid. You on the other hand go over the top and condescending on dissenters every time and are going for the jugular even when someone minds to be polite with you.So what do you expect? everybody here should butter your filthy buttocks and nod their head to whatever you say.

          I am for staying united through thick and through thin. I am equally passionate about us dravidians working elsewhere. its just that this topic has not come for discussion till now. if anybody mocks or attacks dravidian Ill be the first to defend. If someone did that to you a dravidian (as you call yourself) I would be infront of you defending you by all means. Now why should i bother to explain myself to a whack-job like you who lives and breathes hatred. Not that its going to make any difference.
          Listen piss breath, Its you who started this threatening game with your nazi like comments, i Also find it funny that you seem to think you are the whole representative of whole region, take it from me a south indian, majority of us dont feel like what you feel. You do not provide any empirical evidence to substantiate to your claim. All you could do was to highlight some fringe website which doesn’t have any regular updates. That makes you an Imposter, liar, a mammoth fraud of highest order in twisting statements,reading between the lines and making out ideologies, agendas of your will. So dont fool around here passing your personal opinion as collective opinions. We southindians will not fall for your BS, so get on easy with your butt plug

          “Apparently, Narselvam doesn’t realize that Kerala is under INDIAN OCCUPATION (capitalized so that idiot can pay particular attention to that important point)”

          Hold on dog, if kerala people felt so, they wouldn’t have allowed a national party to rule them. what are you smoking? i’d like to know. You are spinning several stories with an hidden agenda. In TN there are several regional parties, where are such parties in Kerala? Like someone said on the other thread, you are just using ethnic divisions to your advantage to pass on your filthy condescending remarks.

          “DRAVIDIANS working in places working in racist places like the Arab gulf, or Mongoloid Singapore.”

          Well fuckhead, before accusing me of doing nothing, what have you done for that? In reality,what could we really do? itts their own choice to live in Singapore or Arab. By your own logic, So when blacks were treated badly in west, what did the whole of Africa do? what can we do to intervene in a foreign countrys affairs? At our best we can condemn thats it.people from northeast are subjected to crass comments in the whole of india including bangalore, take your time to read about that incidents. What was done there to prevent that from happening again? Brainless twit, dont you know the phrase When in rome, be a roman. if you even have a tiny brain you wouldn;t make retarded statements like these? So next time your itchy finger is tempted to write these types of rubish, just take a knife to your fingers, wormy weasel.

          “Then this butthead has the nerve to suggest my own fellow Dravidians would attack me for defending my people against North Indians and their illegal occupation of my homeland”

          Sure, try pulling these stunts in your own state what theresults first hand, when they stuff your tiny dick on to your mouth. There are lakhs of us southerners working in the north in many departments did your shit for brains even know that? Truth hurts, doesn’t it bitch? So just whimper away with your tail between your legs.

          “And apparently, narselvam is a staunch defender of Aryan Hinduism, a corrupt, demonic religion brought in by Aryan invaders. A religion that led to the caste system being imposed on the Dravidian people.”

          Now dipshit, what is known as Hinduism today is majorly indigeneous minus the rituals associated brahminism and caste both of which i absolutely detest. UNFORTUNATE, that the caste has seeped through and i am all for annihilation for it. Not for the belief of gods like Amman, shiva, muruga and various other dieties that are unique only to south for centuries. Just the name Hindu was given by the invaders which they gave after combining all the faiths.where did i say i support caste you thayoli mone. So to push your idea of christianity, you want our people who have been following these faiths for several centuries much much before christ was even born to shed them altogether? Also the earlier dravidian movement was vehemently atheistic aand opposed any kinds of worship. So you even fail on that count. Now the leaders now have deviated from the original ideology and now are wishing people on Christmas, You take it to your advantage and spin stories that they are endorsing it. Like i said earlier, its pretty clear you are from a missionary and writing all these gibberish due to frustrations out of failed targets and blaming others for your own failures. I also find it incredibly funny, if you say have no pagan-faithed progenitors. If you dont have one, you cant be a dravidian. There was no christianity before 16th century in India. so being a foreigner how can you comment on a subject, of which you’re no part of?..
          “You are cowards who suck up to North Indians, idolize North Indians, and even want to protect North Indians.”

          Listen here you cocksucking fag, I am proud of my identity.I dont have any necessity to defend anybody nor emulate anybody. Its just that i dont unfair victimization and the subsequent victimhood mentality of which you indulge in. From where did you learn this art? from the jews eh? Your veiled threats and snide remarks aren’t gonna deter anybody. Everyone is occupied with their daily busy schedules and no one gives a rats ass for these. Nobody takes a stray dog seriously as long as it remains in its limit. When it crosses the line, however it becomes a nuisance. You are an aberration, a corruption, that needs to be exposed. You are like a fucking leech, charlatan of the highest order, a Societal parasite, a fake godman like Nithyananda who preaches sermons outside and is filthy innate. I know how fake pretentious lousy cunning conniving double-crossing sniveling foxes like you play your game. That’s why i am exposing you and your ulterior motives, now scurry away, bloody rat.

        • To narselvam,

          Genetic studies back up the fact that the Aryans are a foreign race who intruded into the subcontinent.
          ————————————————————————————
          To anybody who denies Aryan Invasion History:

          The two scientific studies are:
          “Genetic Evidence on the Origins of Indian Caste Populations.” (http://evolutsioon.ut.ee/publications/Bamshad2001.pdf)

          AND

          “Independent Origins of Indian caste and Tribal Paternal Lineages.” (http://rcordaux.voila.net/pdfs/05.pdf)

          From Page 1 – Summary:
          “We conclude that paternal lineages of Indian caste groups are primarily descended from Indo-European speakers who migrated from Central Asia -3500 years ago. Conversely paternal lineages of tribal groups are predominately derived from the original Indian gene pool.”
          —————————————————————————————–

          Raj sher isn’t being a “retard”. He’s being a liar. So are the Hindu Nationalist groups. They are all denying the Aryan Invasion History (AIH). Have you asked yourself why? You seem to get emotional and lose your temper and bark nonsense, rather than think carefully and logically about these issues. You made a note of it happening thousands of years ago. But North India never had political control until after the British left, which was within the last 100 years. Who gave North India the right to have political control over the Dravidians?

          Staying united? The Dravidian language and culture is already under attack. You’re aware that the North continues to try to impose Hindi on ALL Dravidians, not just Tamils. Why should a Malayalee be forced to fight on the North Indian border against Pakistan or China? Why should Dravidian blood be shed to fight for an alien government that is racist, and religiously intolerant? You keep harping on the impossibility of Dravidian unity, yet you think there’s this unshakeable bond with North India.

          You have no idea how Dravidians feel. Tamil Nadu is public about it, no doubt about that. But you think Dravidians from the other three states, are against independence? You’re wrong. I’m not going to bother to respond to all the other crap you just posted. Your rationale for remaining “united” (in reality, under Indian control) with India makes no sense. Why you would want North Indians to have their troops enforcing their Hindi language, and threatening violence against Dravidians who reject India is beyond me. You should be outraged that India suppresses independence movements with force. You should be horrified that India suppresses freedom.

          But then again, you’d be like one of those idiots who would support “unity” with the British. Or maintain loyalty to the Mughals. You make absolutely no sense, but underneath it all, you are unjust. You are unjust to the Dravidian people in supporting their subjugation at the hands of the Indians. Independence movements don’t occur because the moronic, ignorant majority supports or feels anything. The masses never will take initiative of their own action. They need to be led, and led with sound ideas based in accurate history, and just principles. They need leadership, and when that leadership is provided, then you will hear the Dravidian Tiger roar.

        • raj sher

          Dravidian in south asia there are 7 states india pak afghanistan bangladesh sri lanka nepal and bhutan. The economic condition in other 6 states is worse than india. If kerala or khalistan becomes indepedent their condition will be worse than at present. If south india becomes independent it will be worse of than at present. And if one state dominates the other 3 will feel resentment and will fight for independence. It will never work. There will be 4 nadus not one. Their condition will be same as pak afghanistan bangladesh sri lanka nepal and bhutan. If the people of these other 6 states were given a chance to go to india they will flood india. Millions of bengalis have illegaly come to india for better opportunities. Before the british rule lots of european travellers came to visit india and have written about prosperity of india. But during british rule the visitors have written about poverty of india. The reason mughals robbed the hindus but kept all the wealth in india and spent in india but the british robbed india and took all the indian wealth back home and spent in england. This is what made india poor. The british did the same in america that is why the european americans fought for independence. You cannot accuse north india of stealing south indian money because all the money is spent in india. No aryans send money back home to central asia or europe. Lolz.

        • raj sher

          Dravidian english is also an aryan or indo european language. Why do you use it for communication purposes. If you can use english for communication then why not hindi.

        • raj sher,

          English is the accepted international language and is widely respected throughout the entire globe. It’s the language that remained after the British left Dravidian lands. English is not offensive to Dravidian sensibilities.

          Hindi, on the other hand, is completely, totally, and utterly unacceptable. Hindi is highly offensive to Dravidian sensibilities. We detest Hindi on a very personal level. I don’t want that crap being spoken in my homeland, and I don’t want to hear my people speaking that filthy foreign garbage. I don’t want your Indo-Aryan filth contaminating our precious Dravidian culture. Hindi is alien trash. Our solution to Hindi is to completely wipe it out. And our Dravidian languages will be purged of all Sanskritic influence, believe me.

          Your economic arguments are stupid. All of the subcontinent is poor beyond belief. Western investment can’t change the filthy habits of people who defecate in the streets, and throw their garbage on the ground without any concern for the environmental effects. There isn’t any reason why India can’t be as clean as Sweden or Japan. In fact, it was the “IT Boom” in the Dravidian areas that’s behind much of “India’s” economic growth. We can take care ourselves, we don’t need you North Indians.

          Your political arguments are stupid. Even if one state dominates in Dravida Nadu, we are still all Dravidians at the end of the day. Yet North India completely dominates the entire South, tries to impose it’s language on us, and even brutalizes our people, and you think everything is going to be okay? Most of us are not as stupid as narselvam. Having one Dravidian state (blood kin) be dominant is far preferable to being dominated by North India (foreigners).

          Finally, when the British said “India” was “rich”, they were referring to its natural resources. Plants, minerals, wildlife. “India” might also have had unique cuisines, and interesting clothing/textiles. However, most of the people they encountered were poor. The society itself was poor. “India” wasn’t a great commercial empire like UK or Germany. They weren’t producing all sorts of products. “India” didn’t have an industrial base to manufacture advanced weapons like guns, and artillery. What most people write about “India” now is that is a big Third World dump that is even lower than Africa in many respects. “India” is nothing more than a huge embarrassment, and we Dravidians have had enough.

        • raj sher

          Dravidian, without north indian market your it boom will go bust. Ask south indian business people, they wont agree with your views. Business people are always looking for markets abroad to sell their goods. The british used to chop off the hands of indian skilled workers especially weavers so that indians wont be able to make clothes of their own and will be forced to buy british goods especially clothe. In south india tamil are in majority they will easily dominate other south indian states and destroy their languags and impose their own tamil language. Tamil will dominate and enslave other south indian states and then you will be complaining and fighting against tamil imperialism. When east bengal wanted freedom from west pak they asked india for help. Nowadays, balochi sindhi and mohajir are asking for india, s help. During tamil domination the people of kerala karnataka andhra and telanghna will be asking india for help. Hindu religion is an indian religion. Actually the founder of present day hinduism adi shankaracharya was from kerala in south india. So, the north indians are following south indian religion. All the hindu holy places are in india, pushkar dawaraka haridwar pryag manosarovar amarnath etc. Hindus go to these places for pilgrimage. On the other hand roman catholics come from rome. They go to rome for pilgrimage. Roman catholics should go back to rome. Muslim holy places are makkah and madina in s.arabia. muslims go to makkah for pilgrimage. Muslims should go back to makkah. South indian haplogroups are spread all over north india centeal asia middle east and europe. All north indians maternal dna comes from south india. North indians are nephews of south indians and south indians are maternal uncles of north indians. We are all one family.

        • To mr. narselvam,

          Raj Sher’s “patriotism” means having US, Dravidians, be forced to learn THEIR language. They want us to be forced to assimilate to THEIR religious and cultural patterns. They want us to fight for North Indian interests in Kashmir, while simultaneously neglecting Dravidian interests. India does very little to stop the Sri Lankan Navy from attacking and killing Dravidian fisherman. Please wake up and see India for what it truly is. The North Indians want to be the sole rulers of this “empire” that was handed to them by the British, an “empire” that includes our lands!

          In the new Dravida Nadu, I believe in religious freedom. I don’t believe in forcing anybody to relinquish their religious or cultural practices. You’re right, that would make like the Hindu Nationalists. As for Hinduism’s “Dravidian” base, I would have to disagree. Narselvam, take a close look at Hindu writings. Hinduism is very much about the Aryans killing and subjugating the Dravidian people. Why would we celebrate a spiritual faith that glorifies the Aryan invasion and conquest? Anyway, what’s important is Dravidian unity. What religion we happen to be is a minor issue, because at the end of the day, we ARE Dravidians and we are all in this together.

          I don’t want to get into a “religious” debate over here. I think, narselvam, the problem is you have a view of India that is quite wrong. I’ve talked to other Malayalees who think India is this secular, progressive, tolerant place. “Oh, we tolerate people from all different backgrounds.” “We are pluralistic.” No. The Tamils are the ones who see India for what it truly is, they were right. You have to see the truth about India. And when you realize that India is a despicable place that does not respect our people, that fire for freedom from this scummy country will ignite in your spirit.

        • narselvam

          I agree that a language should not be forced on any one. Your rhetoric doesn’t say why apart from Tamil Nadu other southern people are accustomed to speak Hindi. If they vehemently opposed it, they wouldn’t even speak it anymore. Nobody is holding guns to their throat to speak Hindi. If a north Indian comes to south India apart from Tamil Nadu, he can always find people who are fluent in Hindi. I don’t mean to say almost 100% of them know Hindi, but a majority of them say in cities like Bangalore, Vizag, Hyderabad, Kochi, Trivandrum all speak it. Are you going to swear on something and say that they don’t speak Hindi?

          Also I do not agree that other states are equally passionate about Tamil sentiments. I agree India messed up the SL issue. It just appeared they didn’t give a rat’s ass about all this Tamil SL fiasco. They were just as bad as India. Are you going to give me ridiculous comments like India threatened other states not to give any support to Tamils? I feel that you are pretending to be Malayalee when you are a Tamilian actually given your incessant reference to Tamils. if you are a mallu as you say, why haven’t you criticized ur states actions in Mullaiperiyar issue and many movies made mocking Tamilians and Tamil sentiments? You have done nothing whatsoever.

          Did you even know that the central government was always formed with Dravidian parties being a integral part of it. Did you forget the last 5 years of UPA where DMK in spite of all its wrongdoings was an integral part, central governments could never be formed without Dravidian interference. Don’t give me vague responses like political parties are not major representatives, they are, especially when they have been elected repeatedly. People always have a choice to form the government they wish. When people elect these governments again and again, it often gets to the point that they are just electing the governments they desire and deserve.

          I can understand your insecurity now that the BJP has won with an absolute majority, you can’t resist being a minority, and their actions regarding reconversion which I personally despise aren’t creating a favorable impression either. Don’t extrapolate and see that they are against the south in its entirety. Where have you been for the past 10 years when UPA was ruling?

          Did you emerge out of the woods just because BJP came to the power? BTW, don’t accuse me of supporting BJP. I am not an apologist for anybody. I don’t have an inclination towards any parties. I just want overall good for India. The similarities between south and north are larger than say between North and East. Only people from the east can make arguments like you do. I feel that you are an foreigner brought up south Indian who is stepping into the land for the first time or a secret Tamil christian nationalist trying to cook up stories to build an myth about Dravidian unity. Either way it doesn’t make much sense, sonny.

          Your arguments are as pathetic as the other retard Raj Sher’s. Regarding Raj Sher, he is just an idiotic nationalist.

          You can disagree that Hinduism’s base is Dravidian because it doesn’t suit your religious agenda. When Tamils have retained their language and traditions for thousands of years, it only makes sense they have retained their faith in gods like Amman, Murugan and several other indigenous faiths. These are the kinds of worship that are non-Vedic. But I have to agree that somehow Vedic influence has creeped in here, but not to an extent that Tamil traditions have been lost. Vedic influence is minimal in the rural areas. Its just that Brahmins have taken priest’s jobs and employed their cults here. Non-Vedic parts are still practiced by the masses, it’s just the word “Hindu” was given to bring them under a common clout, and the effect was they were designated castes.

          I am all for the annihilation of caste, but don’t you think you make them as point to push your idea of Christianity? People always had a choice, but if they are still clinging to indigenous faiths, they are just showing their affinity. I once again have to reiterate that the faith was expanded to several other areas and certain worship like Vishnu, Dashavatar were incorporated into the faith, and stories were made up by incoming areas to create what we known as Hinduism today.

          Regarding caste, it has to be annihilated. Are you going to say that all the south Indians are subjugated by caste? Then why do hear caste oppression stories here? Aren’t there casteist people here? Do you even how politics in Andhra is based? Do you know there are caste-based parties in states like TN and Karnataka? Like I said earlier, you are conveniently ignoring the majority of people’s views and are thrusting your own ideas of freedom based on your attraction towards Christianity. Doesn’t often work that way, son. Enough of lies, accept the reality.

        • narselvam,

          They speak Hindi because basic knowledge of it is required to pass grades in school. It’s not the free will of the people in the South to learn their language, English, AND Hindi on top of it all. There are always going to be people who sell out, and betray their own people. They see that India is under Hindi control, and instead of telling the North Indians to go to Hell, they spinelessly and with great cowardice accept learning Hindi. Just because certain Southerners speak Hindi, does not mean that this language is accepted here, or has any place here. It is FOREIGN.

          The Sri Lankans would not hesitate to kill ANY Dravidians. They are targeting the Tamils now, but those fisherman could have been Keralite. The Sri Lankans are anti-Dravidian, and look down upon Dravidians, and see themselves as Aryan.

          http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sinhalese_Buddhist_nationalism

          I am a Malayalee. My father is from Kanjiramattam, my mother from Muthulakodam. But I am also a Dravidian. I agree with the Tamils because their ideology of Dravidian Nationalism is the correct ideology for the Dravidian South. Kannadigas, Telugus, Malayalees, and Tamils are all Dravidians. All others are not Dravidians. Tamils should not be mocked, they are our cousins. They are a part of our extended family. As for North Indians, I’m not officially supporting mocking them, but I wouldn’t care to be quite honest with you.

          Political parties cannot do anything when India threatens to ban, arrest, or jail them if they agitate for independence. That’s what happened to the DMK. They have lost their courage, and are now playing by Indian rules in the Indian system. We as Dravidians need to REJECT the Indian system, and their rules, and advocate for what is truly within our interests: Independence from India.

          BJP is the North Indian party I truly hate the most, but Congress and UPA are all North Indian as well. None of these parties have Dravidian interests at heart. You don’t make any sense. Why can only people from the East aspire to independence? North and South are not that similar, they are very different in fact. BJP “won” because of the border issue with China. BJP promised strength in dealing with Chinese incursions. Just because people like the BJP today, doesn’t mean they will feel the same way tomorrow. Emotions constantly change. BJP supports Indian Imperialism, and that’s the main reason why I oppose it.

          I won’t delve into the religious issue. It’s too complex to be tackling that along with the reawakening of the Dravidian question. As of right now, the reality is that the Dravidian South is lost. It has no sense of its roots, its identity. Hindu Nationalism, and Indian Nationalism, are simply offering a false sense of identity that many blind Southerners are falling into. You want overall good for India? What about your homeland, Dravida Nadu? I want what’s best for the Dravidians and my country, Dravida Nadu. You want to accept the current bad reality, and I want to change that reality and make it better. You keep talking about Christianity as being a threat to Hindu customs and religion, but Hindi isn’t threatening to wipe out our very own languages? You complain that Christians force Hindus to accept their religion while rejecting Hinduism, yet North Indians force Hindi on us but are they learning Malayalam or Tamil?

      • mr. raj sher,

        The market for the Dravidian IT Boom is the West, specifically corporations like Microsoft who can have software written in the South for cheaper than at home.

        Your argument against Tamil “imperialism” is unbelievably stupid when a few posts ago, you obliviously asked, “what’s wrong with Hindi?” Apparently you don’t know what the problem with Hindi imposition is, yet here you are trying to warn us about Tamil imposition? Learn what’s wrong with imposing Hindi on non-Hindi speaking people. Learn what’s wrong with spreading Sanskritic/Aryan culture first.

        Hindu religion is a foreign religion brought in by Indo-Aryan barbarians. It is not the true religion of the Dravidian people. Hinduism oppresses the Dravidian people, and as an ideological system, it needs to wiped from the future Dravida Nadu.

        We are not all one family. Just because you have some Australoid mixture doesn’t make you our family. I just posted genetic studies about the “Indian” population which you haven’t refuted, and support the idea that the peoples of the South are a unique, seperate race who have a right to their own homeland and destiny. North Indians are not my people. Only fellow Dravidians are. The Tamils, Kannadigas, Malayalees, and Telugus are all part of one Dravidian family.

        • saif ali

          This is true.

          I’m of north indian descent and I was so glad when I learnt that I had minimal genetics in common with Tamil scum

        • raj sher

          It boom wont last long. Things change. Like banana republics south will become it republic. Hindi is the majority language of india. That is why it is national language. Hindi is understood all over south asia. Hindi urdu are same languages. The difference is only in the script. When americans got freedom from britain they made english national language of america because english was majority language of american people. 45 percent americans were british and english speaking. The other american languages e.g. irish welsh scotish french german spanish italian and native american languages were all in minority. As I said earlier hindu religion is native to india. All the hindu pilgrimage sights are in india. Hindu sikh budhist and jain do not look outside india. These religions are native to india. Muslims look towards makkah catholics look towards rome jews lok towards jerusalem other christians look towards jerusalem and nazareth. I knowabout south Iindian genetics. F h l are mainly found in south india. F h l are also in north india afghanistan tajikistan turkmenistan uzbekistan iran iraq russia and europe. South indian haplogroups have also migrated to north india central asia middle east and europe. R1a is said to have originated in north western india 18000 years ago. If you want to go into genetics then you should go back to africa because human beings are supposed to have originated in africa.

        • raj sher,

          Hindi is not the majority language of India. It’s the language of a few Northern states, that is all. It was actually Urdu that was actually spoken throughout much of North India on a common level. While Persian and Arabic were official court languages of the Mughals, the commoners under Islamic rule spoke the Urdu variant of Hindustani. So please make Urdu the national language of “India”.

          I already explained that Hindi as a language cannot be instituted in any of the Dravidian territories. Even if it was the “majority” language, which it is not. Hindi Nationalists tried to re-Sanskritize Urdu, and purged the Middle Eastern words and returned to the old Devanagari script. Hindi is an artificial creation. We will not speak it.

          Hindi will not be allowed. Only English and local Dravidian languages are acceptable in the South. South is not a part of India, it’s a part of Dravida Nadu. Hinduism is not native to India, it was brought in by Aryan invaders as proved by genetic studies. The Indo-Aryan race is foreign, and the Indo-Aryan languages, religion, and culture are foreign. Hinduism is no more native than Islam is. Both are corrupted spiritual faiths whose origins are alien.

          So raj, the Hindu/Indian nationalist bullcrap is completely debunked. No more nonsense and lies. I admit that crap is what kept the South asleep for so long, but not anymore. North Indians are not our friends. It’s time for you to leave our country.

        • raj sher

          Dravidian, if you ask an arab or a persian their name in hindi/urdu , ap ka naam kiya hai, they wouldnt have a clue what you are talking about. Hindiurdu is an indian language, language of u.p. province. A punjabi bihari bengali rajasthani gujrati will easily understand you are asking them their name. U.p. is the majority province of india and hindi is the majority language of india in relation to other provinces and languages. It was actually the muslims who persianised and arabinised the hindi language. Originally it was called hindustani but later on muslims called it urdu. Hindu sikh budhist and jain religions are native to india and muslim and christian religions are foreign to india. Both mtdna and ydna haplogroups of south india are also found in north india south east asia china central asia middle east and europe. At the end of the day we all are human beings. Haplogroups dont really matter. It all depends on what part of world you live in and that changes your colour and facial features. Those indians who have lost their melanin due to melanin deficiency look pure white europeans. If you ask for autonomy for south indian states on linguistic grounds then you might have a valid reason. E.g. tamil nadu kerala nadu karnataka nadu andhra nadu telanghana nadu. But asking for autonomy on the grounds of dravida nadu or genetics and haplogroups is an invalid reason. Indo aryans originated in u.p. in india. Ayodhia and prayag were the first capitals founded by the chandarvanshi and surajvanshi royal families 500 generations ago. Sanskrit also originated in u.p. in india. It became royal language and then ligua franca of india. Due to the indo aryan migration to central asia middle east and europe sanskrit was spread abroad. Sanskrit was spread in its original consructed form. That is why the names of family relations are same in all the indo european languages. Sanskrit was the language of the indus aryan empire. To spread a language you need an empire. English language was spread in the world through british empire. Otherwise it was impossible.

        • I didn’t say Persian and Arabic was the same as Urdu. Persian and Arabic were court languages. They were the official language of the Emperor, Nobles, High Society, and Government. Urdu was the language spoken by most North Indians who were second-class dhimmis. Persian/Arabic = elite class; Urdu = low class. Modern Hindi wasn’t even spoken, it was Medieval Urdu. Modern Hindi is a recent creation of Hindu Nationalists.

          Anyway, Hindi/Urdu is a NORTH INDIAN (Aryan) language. It’s not a Dravidian language. Dravidians are not going to speak a language just because it’s “Indian”. We’ll much rather have Urdu than Hindi, anyway.

          Hinduism, Sikhism, and Buddhism are INDO-ARYAN. They are not DRAVIDIAN. We don’t want anything that is North Indian/Aryan, because it’s a threat to our own unique, indigenous Dravidian culture. Your Indian Central Government keeps imposing/insisting on Hindi, we’ll keep saying absolutely not! Hindi will not be accepted here.

          Our Dravidian language, culture, and heritage is more than enough reason to seek independence. We have the right to govern ourselves, and manage ourselves. If you don’t honor that right, then you Hindu Nationalists are imperialists and colonialists. Sanskrit being “spread abroad” and Aryans “migrating to Europe” is just the same Out-of-India nonsense that was earlier debunked.

          Aryans are foreign, and they are intruders into Dravidian territory. Your language, royal families, spirituality, etc. are all foreign. We might all be human beings, but humans are split up into different tribes. We are not Indians, and we have the right to our own homeland.

        • narselvam

          ? Most of us are not as stupid as narselvam.”
          Punda mavane, if i am a stupid then you are a masonic fraud. Also thanks for exposing your real motives in your posts.Now its crystal clear that my assumptions are true. You don’t have to respond to my “crap” as someone from your retarded ilk will do do. You will like those who love to perform your fecal removal duties by tonguing deep in your ass and eating whatever shit you throw, just similar to what you are doing for some vigilantes. Its only obvious from your retarded posts your demands are only based on your dislike of religon, Its not out of any genuine concern. Ill respond to rest of your garbage later. Keep playing with your excrement till then!!!

        • raj sher

          Dravidian, the total population of south indian states is less than 200 million. The total population of just one north indian state of u.p. is over 200 million which is more than south indian states put together. In u.p. there is just one language hindi. Hindi is also spoken in other north indian states. On the other hand in south india there are about 4 different languages spoken by 50 million each on average. On one hand hindi is spoken by hundreds of millionsof people of india and south indian languages just by a few few million people. Hindi is also spoken and understood by hundreds and millions of other south asian people e.g. pak bangladesh. Hindi is lingua franca of south asia. If south india gets autonomy you will have to impose and make one of the south indian languages a national language. Whether it is tamil telugu or malayallee. You will eventually have to make a choice. You cannot have 4 national languages. It would berediculous. Hindus have been oppressed for more than 2 millanea by greeks bacterians parthians scythians kushan hun arab ghaznavi ghori lodhi suri mughal british. Hindus have been victimised for a very long time. You should feel sorry for hindus. If south Iindia gets autonomy there will be civil war Iin south India. Muslims and christians will enslave the hindus. And muslims will forcibly marry hindu and christian girls. Then what will you do. Your freedom wont lastlong. Stay together and you will be safe.

        • mr. raj sher,

          Your arguments continue to make no sense. I’m sure millions of people in the Middle East speak Arabic. Yes or no? Should Arabic be imposed on North Indians simply because a large majority of people in the Middle East speak Arabic?

          Hindi is not spoken in Pak/Bangladesh. It’s Urdu. Hindi is the majority language in a few North Indian states. It’s the langauge of a people who are alien to us. We are not going to learn a foreign language to speak with foreigners. There is no need or want for Hindi in the South. If you are living in South, then you either learn the local language or English. There is no need for this language because North Indians aren’t my people, so I’m not really going to communicate with them anyway. English is the Lingua Franca of South Asia, raj.

          If Dravida Nadu gets autonomy, English will be the national language of all four Southern states. It’s that simple. Each of the four states will keep their local language. If push really comes to shove, I as a Keralite can accept Tamil as the National Language of Dravida Nadu. It’s a brother Dravidian language and it’s not alien to our people. English will be the mandatory link language, but I will sacrifice and learn Tamil for the sake of Dravidian identity.

          I don’t feel sorry for Hindus. Muslims and Christians live in peace and harmony in the South because we are all Dravidians. We are open-minded, and progressive. The Muslims in North India were invaders. Once we spread the truth about Hinduism, most Dravidians will turn away from that false, demonic religion. As for our freedom, tell India to leave first. Our freedom is our own business, not yours. We don’t need, or want, your “protection”.

        • narselvam

          No, i dont hate you personally nor Raj sher. why should I when i have not even met you both personally? Since you chose to address me in a civil manner, ill respond in the same manner. Rajsher’s blind patriotism is making him to give comments like these and he is not necessarily evil I place you and him both on the same pedestal.
          comments like the above treating dissenters with intense aghast and a pathological hatred for a religion whose base is Dravidian is what makes us angry. If you go out out and condemn the rituals and caste in Hinduism, there wouldn’t be any problem as most of the criticisms have been on those lines. You on the other hand want them wiped off the face of this region citiing some numb examples like Idolatry is false plath. You never want any reformation of our religion rather you just want to abolish it. for your sake of promoting christianity. Though people practice several other religions their its all hinduized and people are culturally hindu. Why you bother whether they worship idol or not? whats wrong with idolatry? Who are you to dictate terms on their religion? I do have several other points to address i will give it later due to time constraints

      • narselvam

        Raj Sher. You are a fool and liar. Tamils are a bunch of nice people who have retained the culture for several years. They will never harm anybody and have a rich tradition of welcoming and treating outsiders very well. its just that they dont like hindi to be imposed on them, Tamil is far superior to any other language ie sangam literature. Your stupid arguments of Tamils imposing their language is not going to happen. Telugus far outnumber tamil in South india incase you are not aware. You are forming unfounded assumptions based on arguing with this dickhead dravidian, who happens to be a keralite and more over he is a masonic fraud with an hidden agenda who denies that his language has greater number of borrowings from ancient Indian Sanskrit,kind of like fake swamijis who are regularly exposed. he is no different from them

        • narselvam,

          I apologize for insulting you. There’s no need for us sink to that level. You are a fellow Dravidian, and a blood brother. I was wrong. I should not treat fellow Dravidians that way. I now realize you cannot control your emotions. If you don’t like me personally, that’s fine. But you should know the truth about these North Indians. From one Dravidian to another.

          Raj sher supports Hindi imposition. Most North Indians (not just Indian Government) support this idea of imposing a foreign language on our people. I went to the airport in Kochi, and yes I saw the “Three Language” formula being implemented right in front of my eyes. I saw an unwelcome trespasser, Hindi, being used on signs in our own airport!

          This will never change, narselvam, until independence is won. What the North Indians are doing to our people is foreign oppression. I agree with you 100% that Tamils aren’t going to impose Tamil, and for raj sher to bring that up while supporting Hindi imposition is stupid and hypocritical. You are not my enemy, narselvam. People like Raj Sher are.

        • Narselvam,

          I’m going to continue our discussion here. I disagree with you on the idea that raj sher is a “patriot”. Raj Sher is an imperialist/colonialist if he advocates the continuing occupation of Dravidian lands and the imposition of a foreign, alien language on our people. Hindi is not acceptable because it is not a Dravidian language. Our people will not be forced to speak a language that is alien to them. Period. Any attempt to continue to promote Hindi when we as Dravidians say ABSOLUTELY NOT will be perceived as an offense.

          In the new Dravida Nadu, I fully support religious freedom. We are not going to force anybody to adopt a religion, nor are we going to engage in bigotry against people who continue to adhere to the Hindu faith. All Dravidians are welcome, and religion should remain a private, individual matter.

          However, we Dravidians will be very clear on what Hinduism is. It is an Aryan religion that clearly glorifies brutality against the native Dravidian peoples. It celebrates our displacement and our reduction to the status of animals at the hands of the invading Indo-Aryans. Whether or not some of the gods/idols of current Hinduism might’ve been Dravidian in origin doesn’t change the fact that it’s an Aryan racist religion. I’m aware of European and Arab bigotry against Hindus. They have a history of wanting to impose THEIR faith while simultaneously having contempt and disgust for Hinduism, and a refusal to have anything to do with it. While I’m a personally a Christian, I am not a vehicle for spreading Evangelical bigotry. I believe that a lot of Christians who behave in such a manner (treating people with disrespect/contempt) goes directly against the teachings of Jesus Christ.

          The problem with idolatry is that God actually exists, and He is personally offended by it.

          In the new Dravida Nadu, we cannot just settle for “reforming” what are alien traditions. What do people like Arjuna, or gods like Krishna/Vishnu, have to do with the Dravidian people? They are Indo-Aryan in origin. Again, I’m not against mistreating or forcing people to do anything. But there’s going to be social movements against a faith that oppresses our people.

  49. Dave Mowers

    About the only statement, “raj sher,” has made that makes me, think, and, believe that, he may be on the same path as everyone else on this blog.

    A testament to Robert, who gets beaten-down daily, nightly, yet does not deserve the treatment…he takes this abuse, for all of us, who cannot handle it.

    Thank You,

    Raj

    Robert

    • Yep they nail me up psychologically day in and day out and kill me for my crimes and sins so that you all may live.

      • raj sher

        Robert, I think the aryas took the gypsy route to central asia middle east and europe. Gypsy model can be used for out of india theory. The sanskrit was discovered in bengal. Original theory was that indo european languages originated in india. Some european people did not like the idea that europwans were speaking indian languages and might be partially descended from bengalis. For this racist reason the out of india theory was revised and turned into aryan invasion theory. If the sanskrit had been discovered in the north in kashmir and afghanistan then the europeans wouldnt have minded being partially descendd from north indians. In my opinion ait is based on racism. Aryan king lists go back 500 generations. May be some people came from central asia or europe 500 generations ago but I dont agree with 1500 b.c. date. May be some people came 500 generations ago founded indus valley civilisation became indianised and then after the collapse of ivc some remigrated back to central asia middle east and europe. The new theory is aryan remigration theory.

      • Dave Mowers

        ROFL!

        You have become the Malak Taus!

  50. Pingback: Were Aryans the forefathers of Hindus? | CL-UAT

  51. narselvam,

    I keep trying to reply to you but the blog keeps dropping my replies. I’m too busy to type up what I wrote, so I’ll keep it brief.

    Raj Sher is not a “patriot”. He is an imperialist and a colonialist if he continues to support occupying Dravidian territory, and imposing a foreign/alien language on our people. I’ve made it very clear that Hindi is unacceptable because it is foreign. Indian control of our lands are unacceptable because it is foreign.

    I’m aware of European and Arab bigotry against Hindus. They not only do not respect Hindu customs, but they also seek to impose their religions on Hindus. In Dravida Nadu, I support freedom of religion for the Dravidian people.

    However, despite having gods that might have originated in Dravidian polytheism, Hinduism is clearly an Indo-Aryan religion. People like Arjuna, and gods like Krishna/Vishnu, are Indo-Aryan and therefore alien to our people. Not only that, it is a religion that celebrates the Aryan conquest of our people, and the reduction of their status to lowly animals. It is evil. So there are going to be social movements against Hinduism based on its anti-Dravidian racism. I’m not going to cover up the truth about what Hinduism is, and why it is foolish for Dravidians to adhere to a religion that has celebrated their enslavement and murder.

    I’m not sure what “culturally Hindu” means. If they are supporting Brahmanism for example, then that is wrong. I’ve heard tales of so called Namboothiri Brahmins (in Kerala) ringing a bell because if they touched a “low caste or non-Hindu”, they would be “polluted” and would have to bathe. Is that the kind of cruelty you think should be a part of Dravidian culture? No Dravidian touching another Dravidian is “polluting”, what kind of nonsense is this? What is this garbage doing in our lands? Again, I’m against religious bigotry, but these Aryan caste attitudes are not going to be put up with in our new country.

    Narselvam, you seem to just advocate whatever the status quo is. Any attempts to change that is seen as “wrong” by you, even if it is detrimental to our Dravidian people.

    • raj sher

      Mr. Dravidian, I am a unionist. I am not an imperialist and I am not a colonialist. If I say that india should invade and colonise central asia middle east or europe then you can call me an imperialist and colonialist. I am not saying that. All I want is india to stay united because there is safety in numbers. India has been invaded and colonised many times due to disunity. We must stay united. We all look same to non indians whether we are north indians or south indians. If there are any problems they can be sorted out. No need for disunity. That is all. End of discussion. Have a nice day.

    • Hindus are strange hybrid of both coward and imperialist and a threat to the world’s peace. She is the world worst aggressor after WW2 eaten up Kashmir, Hyderabad, Goa, Manipur, Sikkim..etc.

      She was stopped in Tibet by China.

  52. MY3000YEAR

    Aryans (Arya),
    Aryans a race, that originated from Eastern Europe, near Hungary. North-Indians are Aryans, Persians(Iranians) are also Aryan, and Nordes (North Europe) are what Caucasians think of as the true aryans. The truth is that all Indics, Persians, and Nordes share the same blood. others Indians are a little more diverse because in south india and east India, their is another race called Dravidians (not Aryan) witch prospers there. Iranians and north-Indians (1st.Kashmiri, 2nd.Punjabi, 3r. Rajasthani, and some other areas like near border area like himachal ,haryana) are the Aryan Empire of India. Iranians and Indians have the same blood because they are Indo-Iranians, a group of Aryans, So my answer to that is, all Persians, Indians and Nordes are all true aryans. Indians and Iranians are the same.

    I was always fascinated with the subject of Aryans!!!

    • Dave Mowers

      Let us suppose for a minute that there is a causal relationship between words like, “Aryas,” and “Aries,” and based on the historical nature of man and the myths, what if, as in the Sumerian we find, “Aryas,” as two root words meaning, “High. noble,” and “star,” so the, “Aryas,” as a pluralized noun for a people meaning, “The noble star-people,” perhaps signifies less that they came from the heavens and more that they are a, “people who studied the heavens,” as in the Zodiac.

      The the war god, “Aries,” can form a sort of map of the two peoples who began start-watching in earnest, the Sumerians, as joined into a single culture. You see Aries would then represent the nomadic Sacae/Scythian race who live above the, “ecliptic,” band between Persia and the Caucasus as described in the Tales of Miletus in the story of Omartes.

      The imaginary line between the two cultures ran through the Caspian and Aral seas dividing the northern peoples from what they called, “city-dwellers,” or like the Sumerian city-states; agriculturalists.

      Then what the Sumerians called, “The Plow,” which is also the Nordic definition of the term, “Aryan,” as-in, “ploughman,” would be in fact Taurus which is, in fact, shaped like a plow and his driver, farmer, would be what Sumerians called, “The Shepherd,” or “Tammuz,” the constellation of Orion whom is below the belt of the ecliptic.

      Therefore, in the stars, we find the narrative of the history of Sacae invasion into Mesopotamia and the subsequent change in narrative that combines the two cultures into one. The Hindu myths claim they left right?

      So they settled in Mesopotamia, riddle solved.

  53. Dave Mowers

    Let us suppose for a minute that there is a causal relationship between words like, “Aryas,” and “Aries,” and based on the historical nature of man and the myths, what if, as in the Sumerian we find, “Aryas,” as two root words meaning, “High. noble,” and “star,” so the, “Aryas,” as a pluralized noun for a people meaning, “The noble star-people,” perhaps signifies less that they came from the heavens and more that they are a, “people who studied the heavens,” as in the Zodiac.

    The the war god, “Aries,” can form a sort of map of the two peoples who began start-watching in earnest, the Sumerians, as joined into a single culture. You see Aries would then represent the nomadic Sacae/Scythian race who live above the, “ecliptic,” band between Persia and the Caucasus as described in the Tales of Miletus in the story of Omartes.

    The imaginary line between the two cultures ran through the Caspian and Aral seas dividing the northern peoples from what they called, “city-dwellers,” or like the Sumerian city-states; agriculturalists.

    Then what the Sumerians called, “The Plow,” which is also the Nordic definition of the term, “Aryan,” as-in, “ploughman,” would be in fact Taurus which is, in fact, shaped like a plow and his driver, farmer, would be what Sumerians called, “The Shepherd,” or “Tammuz,” the constellation of Orion whom is below the belt of the ecliptic.

    Therefore, in the stars, we find the narrative of the history of Sacae invasion into Mesopotamia and the subsequent change in narrative that combines the two cultures into one. The Hindu myths claim they left right?

    So they settled in Mesopotamia, riddle solved.

  54. After reading all of this article i notice that the claims made by the author are not backed by any proof on archaeological grounds and genetic grounds and this so assumed migration has not been documented anywhere. On Anthropological grounds yes there are many languages in this world that are linked to Sanskrit. The Vedas were originally written in Sanskrit and date back to beyond 8000B.C.
    According to the Bible, the history of mankind is 8000 years old. Therefore it has become the religious duty of western Veda researchers to determine the Veda’s age within this time. That is why the most of them and their Indian puppets decide Vedas birth time between 3500 years and 4000 years ago.
    The astronomical events described in Vedas have been dated back to happen around 8000 BC- 15000 BC concluding the time period when Vedas were written down. Vedas are believed by many many years older than this.
    On Genetic grounds : Researchers analysed some six lakh bits of genetic information in the form of SNPs drawn from DNA of over 1,300 individuals from 112 populations including 30 ethnic groups in India. The research study was led by scientists from the Centre for Cellular and Molecular Biology (CCMB), This research concluded –
    Our study clearly shows that there was no genetic influx 3,500 years ago,” said Dr Kumarasamy Thangaraj of CCMB, who led the research team, which included scientists from the University of Tartu, Estonia, Chettinad Academy of Research and Education, Chennai and Banaras Hindu University.It is high time we re-write India’s prehistory based on scientific evidence .”Both the ancestry components that dominate genetic variation in South Asia demonstrate much greater diversity than those that predominate West Eurasia. This is indicative of a more ancient demographic history and a higher long-term effective population size underlying South Asian genome variation compared to that of West Eurasia,” researchers said.
    “The genetic component which spread beyond India is significantly higher in India than in any other part of world. This implies that this genetic component originated in India and then spread to West Asia and Caucasus,” said Gyaneshwar Chaube of University of Tartu, Estonia.

    Hence I suggest the author of this blog to go and research on Max Muller and M.Wheeler and find out why the fake Aryan Invasion theory was drafted based on which this whole blunder is created.

    • Dumb! Idiot… So you are one of the guy who makes India a stupid in front of the rest of the world… Your first Paragraph an utter nonsense… It’s like an argument by a Christian against Evolution…

      What the fuck? Astronomical dates between 8,000 BCE and 15,000 BCE… Are you seriously dumb? Human civilization started only about 8,000 BCE… Prior to that Humans were hunter gatherers… Vedas… were a series of composition… which edition was completed only on somewhere nearby 400-5000 AD..

      Let’s forget about the western world who said what about Vedas for a moment… Let’s talk about what ancient Indians mentioned about Vedas… Have you heard about Carvakas? (Ancient Indian Atheists)… They quoted “The Three Authors of Vedas were Buffoons, Knaves and Demons”.. They said Vedas suffered from three faults Untruth, Self Contradiction and Tautology.. Carvakas rejected religious conceptions like afterlife, reincarnation, religious rites etc… To them, Vedas were just incoherent rhapsodies… Carvakas rejected the authority of Vedas, which they declared to be the work of buffoons, knaves and demons…

      What the fuck is that all about SNP’s drawn from DNA and genetic influx… There was no genetic influx in 3,500 years… What? Are you kidding me? Genetic Mutation has no time schedule…. It happens all the time… It’s actually a continuous process… It will never put an end…. Evolution is unrelenting. It doesn’t stop – even for a single generation…

      • Vivian Dsouza

        Hi buddy. Brother there was No Aryan migration or invasion into India. This has been proven and the west is accepting it unlike what robert said. No i am not a Hindu i am a proud Christian and not a nationalist but a rational thinker. There is no such thing as Aryan race. Aryan mean noble that has nothing to do with race. Indian civilization started 14000 year ago

        Please watch a documentary by Graham Hancock on Youtube named as Dwarka 12000 year old city. U find all ur answers there. AIT or AMT is a myth. Infact many the west is accepting that there was migration from India to Europe. Recent genetic study has proved that South Indians and North Indians both have same genetics. Roberts AIT or AMT theory is total nonsense. Evidences he provides does not at all prove AIT ir AMT. The British came up with AIT or AMT to divide Indians and call Europeans as Superior to Indians. Taking Linguistics as evidence to falsely prove AIT or AMT is a yotal nonsense. Linguistics can be spread withoit any migrations too when a linguistics passes down. As Robert clearly states He distorts history and people deride

  55. I am not an historian or a linguist or a preacher. However 1 question has remained in my mind since I first read about aryan Invasion theory some..20years ago…Over the time, no one has been able to answer it to my satisfaction. The only partial answer I get is if I accept Aryan origin in India..If you answer it I have no problem in accepting aryans originated in Antarctica for that matter. And yes it is religious but plain logic

    We know that Indus civilization was most advanced and first urban culture of our time. Their Gods included Pashupati (Shiva), Shakti or mother godess (Durga) and humped bull (Nandi) more or less mordern Hindu equivalent. Please note I am not a scholar. On the other hand Aryan where nature worshippers with God like Indra, Agni etc. Now as a modern Indian would tell you shiva, shakti etc are actually the most powerful ones while Indra the vedic God is now more a demigod Devta.

    Question is how come a culture which was destroyed (not necessarily by Aryans) can superimpose their Gods over the other? The one that thrived. The migrators or victors whatever you like… If their was a cultural influx over a period of century the Indus Gods should have been lost…How can you pray a God who couldnt even protect their loyal worshippers? The civilization was lost but Gods elevated ? mind you a modern hindu still follows and does nature worship in 3most important event of his life. When born, when married and when he dies…Yet for him shiva is powerful than Indra

    • Gunzo

      Falcon, Please do not confuse the Gods with peoples! Frankly speaking, Jesus Christ was a Jew and the “Father” mentioned in the Bible is actually the God of the Muslims and Jews. All the christians of this world and all the muslims of this world who are not native to Israel or Arabia are either hallucinating at the worst or just in denial that the Jewish / Islamic God was the God of the whole world for all times past or all times present or the future.

      The so called Indian people, the Gods got simply assimilated. That is all. I do not know whether Indus valley civilization is Aryan or Dravidian or in fact some Sumerian or Egyptian or Greek like.

      It is unmistakable that India is an admixture of a predominantly Dravidian descent with the Central Asian descent. There is simply no other alternative theory to explain the culture fo current day Indians and the structure of languages which are drastically different and passed on from mothers to the sons and daughters. There is no question, Dravidian languages are native to the soil and Sanskrit is an imposter.

      Not to say one is superior to the other. It has been proven right under the nose of Hitler that racial superiority is a total nonsense.

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