Hindutva Crazies on the Dating of the Rig Vedas

I am not sure why Hindutvas want to push the dating the Rig Vedas back so far. Can anyone help me here?

Generally, the Rig Vedas are said to begin around 3900 YBP. This is also the time of the Aryan migration to India. For some reason, in order to subdue the hated Aryan migration theory (AMT) Hindutvas need a very early date for the Rig Vedas. But why is this? Why is an early date so important? I’m lost here.

An early dating of the Rig Vedas is very important if you want to push the Out of India Theory for Indo-European. Perhaps this is the motivation here?

Here is an article on the dating of the Rig Vedas from a crazy Hindutva website that is extremely popular with educated Hindus.

We will go through this nonsense part by part here:

The Saraswati River. This river supposedly disappeared 3900 YBP and it is mentioned in the Rig Vedas. However, no one really knows what river is being referred to here. The earliest references to the Saraswati are to the Helmand in Afghanistan. Later references are to a river in India. The Saraswati has always been a mystical river in the Vedas, and the Saraswati River theory endlessly pounded by Indians is widely considered to be a red herring.

The Egyptian pyramids had to have been built using ancient Indian mathematical knowledge. I’ve never heard this one before, but it sounds nuts. The algorithm for building the pyramids is supposedly found in the Vedas.

Astronomy. Supposedly, astronomical records prove that the Vedas date back to 6000 YBP. This theory is widely considered dubious.

The Rig Vedas do not mention silver or cotton. This is another one that they hammer on all the time. I’m not exactly sure what it is supposed to mean, but supposedly it puts an early date on the Vedas. The Vedas don’t mention all sorts of things.

The sages. Supposedly the sages are dated all the way back to 5700 YBP. But we have no way of dating any of these wise men and their eras. That’s purely speculative.

No mention of iron in the Vedas. Iron came to India 3200 YBP, so supposedly the Vedas must date before that. However, the word ayas is reportedly used in the Vedas for iron. Hindutvas dispute this. There is definitely mention of metals in the Vedas, and the Aryan migration can be dated from place to place in South Asia according to the introduction or iron, as the Aryans brought metalworking.

Indus Valley Civilization. The Harappans, or IVC, are said by one Indian author to be mentioned all throughout the Vedas. This would take the Vedas all the way back to 9000 YBP. This makes no sense. The time of Vedas, with horses, chariots, soma, stone forts and metals, simply screams 2nd millennium BC. The Harappan civilization was in ruins by the time the Aryans showed up, having declined 5000 YBP.

Dating of events in the Mahabharata is put by all sources at 5100 YBP. As Hindu culture is ahistoric in terms of dates and events, no one knows when these events took place.

The Aryan Invasion Theory was used by Hitler to commit genocide. There’s no evidence that this is true or that the Nazis cared much about it. At any rate, the Nazis used “Aryan” to mean “Germanic.”

Max Muller, one of the originators of the AMT, was hired by the British to erase Indian history. Why would the British bother to do that? It’s ridiculous.


Filed under Antiquity, Asia, Hinduism, History, India, Indo-European, Indo-Hittite, Language Families, Linguistics, Literature, Nationalism, Political Science, Regional, Religion, South Asia

214 responses to “Hindutva Crazies on the Dating of the Rig Vedas

  1. Dirty Bull

    The Latin for bronze is ‘aes’, very similar to ‘ayas’.
    Circumstantial evidence linking the Aryans to the bronze age and a Eurasian homeland, since the homeland would be equidistant from Italy/India.

  2. Wade in MO

    “I’m not exactly sure what it is supposed to mean, but supposedly it puts an early date on the Vedas”

    “Cotton was first cultivated in the Old World 7,000 years ago (5th–4th millennia BC), by the inhabitants of the Indus Valley Civilization, which covered a huge swath of the northwestern part of the Indian subcontinent, comprising today parts of eastern Pakistan and northwestern India. The Indus cotton industry was well developed and some methods used in cotton spinning and fabrication continued to be used until the modern industrialization of India. Well before the Common Era, the use of cotton textiles had spread from India to the Mediterranean and beyond.”

    My guess is that by saying that there is no cotton they think they are proving that they must have been written before cotton cultivation started 7000 years ago.

    • That’s truly insane. The Vedas were written 3000-3500 YBP. There was no writing in Indian 7000 YBP!

      • Wade in MO

        “That’s truly insane”

        So is this…
        “The Tajmahal is Tejomahalay – A Hindu Temple”

        • Yes, that’s nuts, right? Claiming that the Taj Majal is a Hindu temple? Bizarre. That can’t possibly be true.

        • Matt

          If they were saying that it was built on the site of a Hindu temple, I might give it serious consideration long enough to look it up in a legitimate reference source. Stuff like that happened quite often in India and elsewhere. But there is absolutely no question that the building that we know was built by a Muslim Moghul ruler in a style typical of Islamic India and Persia. The article claims that the Om symbol appears in the Taj. I don’t know if it’s true, but what if it is? It’s a matter of historical record that many Moghul rulers tended to be as syncretist as it was possible to be while still identifying as Muslims. One of them (Babar, I think) actually seriously explored creating his own religion.

          In short, you’re right. Whoever wrote that is a liar. Or psychotic. Or a psychotic liar.

        • Whoa wait a minute! They are not saying it is built on the site of a Hindu temple, they are saying that it *is* a Hindu temple?! WTF man. That’s so whack LOL.

        • Harry S

          Typical Hindu nonsense. According to them, the Kaaba is also a Hindu temple and Muslims worship Shiva.


      • Rajeev

        Recent studies indicate that there exists in Northern India dried bed of a very large river that ( again tests have proved ) commenced drying up around 2600BC and was dried out by 1900 BC . Also along the dried bed of this river hundreds of so called Indus Valley Civilization settlements have been discovered. Other scientific proofs have indicated that this dried up river is indeed the Saraswati river of the Veda and the Mahbharata . As a positive date of the time period when this river dried out has been obtained through scientific methodology , one can safely use this “evidence” of the Saraswati river and state with confidence that the Rig Vedas was composed several centuries PRIOR to 2600BC . The Aryan “invasion” theory is also laid to rest as the ARYAN civilization was none other than the Indus Valley Civilization , which after the drying up of the Saraswati, shifted to the Gangetic Basin from around 1900 BC .

        • Bla bla bla bla Sarasvati Bla bla bla Vedas Bla bla bla 1900 BC Bla bla bla river dried up Bla bla bla.

        • The Aryans were there before the Indus valley civilization and after that too is a conflicting statement because. there is no statement in Veda talks about this civilization. Man with IQ can understand this. And there is no evidnece that the Indus valley people were there when Saraswathi dried up.. That clearly means that Aryans came there before it dried up. And in the rig veda period itself it got dried up. So the rig veda completion is after Saraswathi river. so after BC1900 only the compilation was over. Problem solved.

      • We must never muddle up the concept of the language and the concept of a script. Are there not people who are illiterate in England? Do they not speak English?

        Vedas were written down much later because the script was invented later. The vedas were passed down the generations as songs. That is why they are written in meter that is apt for singing. It makes them much harder to trace.

        Thus, even when we accept that the scipts appear around 3000-3500 ybp it does not conclusively put the top ceiling on their composition.

      • Ajay Sharma

        Hello Robert,

        I would love to give you a point by point reply to every “question” you have brought up.

        However, I would like to state that it is clear that you seem fairly biased and that you automatically equate any disagreement with the

        “mainstream” dating as being a “hindutva crazy”.

        The Saraswati River- If you are interested in this topic, I suggest you read “The Lost River” by Michel Danino for an impeccably researched

        book on the significance of the Saraswati on the dating of the Rig Veda and Rig Vedic Peoples.

        The saraswati river is very important in dating the rig veda because it is clear that the authors almost deified the river becuase its mighty

        waters were the sustaining life force of the vedic culture and people. The Nadi Stuti Sukta of the Rig Veda CLEARLY lists the Rivers of the

        Indus Valley moving WEST to EAST- Ganga, yamuna,Saraswati,sutudri, Parusni,Vitasta,Arjikiya, and Susoma. Therefore, the earliest references

        to the Saraswati ARE NOT to the Helmand in Afghanistan as you falsey claimed. The rivers are clearly described in order from West to east.

        Even western scholars agree that this description is from one of the oldest mandalas (books) of the Rig Veda. Leading hydrologists and

        Geologists (Robert Raikes, R.D. Oldham, Marie Agnes- Courty,A.K. Grover, Peter Clift, M.A. Geyh, D. Ploethner) from all over the world

        utilitizing multi spectral imaging and remote sensing (from NASA’s Landsat amongst other satellites) technologies have determined that the

        terminus ad quem (latest possible date) for the drying up of the Saraswati was 1900 B.C. However this process (caused by tectonic events) was

        thought to be gradual from around 2600 BC to 1900 BC. And if you look at a map of most of the ancient archeological sites in India, they fall

        along the dried up Saraswati River. This is further supported by radiometric dating done on the paleochanels by BARC scientists. The Rig Veda

        clearly decribes the Saraswati as the “mighty river” which flows “like a deluge from the mountains to the sea.” It is a fact that the Rig

        Vedic culture flourished while the river was mighty and declined along with the river. Therefore, at the very least the Rig Veda was composed

        well before 2600 B.C.

        Pyramids- I would never claim that the Vedic people built the pyramids however it is a fact that the Sulba Sutras show a clear understanding

        of Pythogaras theorem as well as calculus (millenia before Newton the “founder” of Calculus!)

        Astronomy- It is a fact that the vedic poeple had an extemely advanced knowledge of astronomy as well as obsessively recording astronomic

        events. The location of Dhruva (the pole star) in the decribed celestial mansion, as well as the fact that the vernal equinox is placed in

        the Mrigashira constellation are but two of the many astronomical examples in the Rig Veda that point to a date before 4000 B.C. This has

        been calculated by the same software used by N.A.S.A. Read this article by John Brug- he uses astronomical events to date the Ancient

        Egyptian Dynasties- http://hbar.phys.msu.ru/gorm/ahist/astrdat.pdf

        Iron- Iron is also very indicative of the antiquity of the Rig Veda. Ayas means metal in Sanskrit not necesarrily Iron. Hence “Pingala Ayas”

        or red metal for copper. Furthermore, Possehl and Rissman (1992) have radiocarbon dated slag and other evidence of Iron working as far back

        as 1679 B.C. (3210 years before present) as far south as Ramapuram, Andhra Pradesh- again bringing into doubt the theory that Aryan invaders

        brought the knowledge of Iron to India. Stuiver and Reimer (1993) have also radiocarbon dated Iron slag and related evidence from strata

        belonging to 1687 B.C. (about 3280 years before present) as far south as Veerapuram Andhra Pradesh. Tewari has radiocarbon dated Iron slag

        from strata from 2100 B.C. (over 3600 years before present) but lets ignore these because he is but an Indain Scientist. Either way the

        evidence is highly indicative that advanced metallurgy already existed in India and that it was hardly from An Aryan invasion circa 1500 B.C.

        I am sure more evidence will be unerathed in coming years further supporting this position.

        IVC- There is no reason to claim that the IVC had already declined by the Vedic Times. These cultures are probably one and the same. This is

        evidenced by the “priest- king statue” where the subject is wearing a vedic yagnopavitam which brahmins to this day (myself included) are

        proud to wear. He also has his eyes half closed in meditation stylistically this is seen throughout Indian art. Look up the Pashupati seal in

        which the Lord Shiva is depicted with three heads seated in yogic posture as pashupati (lord of all animals). Another Indus valley seal shows

        a young boy uprooting a tree from which two human figures emerge. This episode is known as Yamalarjuna and is a depiction of Lord Krishna-

        the two people coming out of the tree are cursed Gandharavas or celestial nymphs- Nalakubara and Manigriva. This is an EXACT depiction look

        at the seal and read the story! Look up the crystal clear shiva lingas found at both kalibangan and Lothal both cities of the IVC. Also at

        lothal, mohenjodaro and kalibangan vedic fire altars constructed to precise vedic specifications have been found.In addition to the swastika,

        innumerable other Hindu motifs have been found at IVC sites. The same exact weights and measurements used by the IVC have been found in

        perpetuity until the time of Chandragupta Maurya ( 300 B.C. I belive- contemporaneous to Megas Alexandras). Even the same IVC symbols and

        motifs are used on Coins by Mauryan rulers.The ekashringa or one horned boar is clearly found on many IVC seals and is one of the dasavatara

        (10 forms) of Vishnu.

        I would love to hear a reply from you based on the evidence I have given…How can you possibly refute the antiquity and perpetuity of Indian

        culture given all of this evidence?

        And this isnt even bringing genetics into account. Linguistics may be interpreted but genetics dont lie. It is a FACT that Haplogroup R1a

        originated in South Asia- Even mainstream western scientists agree with this.

        Stephen Oppenhiemer (of Oxford) one of the worlds most eminent geneticists clearly states that- “South Asia is logically the ultimate origin

        of M17 and his ancestors; and sure enough we find highest rates and greatest diversity of the M17 line in Pakistan, India, and eastern Iran,

        and low rates in the Caucasus. M17 is not only more diverse in South Asia than in Central Asia but diversity characterizes its presence in

        isolated tribal groups in the south, thus undermining any theory of M17 as a marker of a ‘male Aryan Invasion of India.’

        Study of the geographical distribution and the diversity of genetic branches and stems again suggests that Ruslan, along with his son M17,

        arose early in South Asia, somewhere near India, and subsequently spread not only south-east to Australia but also north, directly to Central

        Asia, before splitting east and west into Europe and East Asia.”

        While I am not making the mistake of equating R1a with Vedic culture- this is certainly very telling. Look up “Indo Aryan Superstate in

        Mittani” The Indo Aryans were as far out as Asia Minor. They worshipped our gods- Agni, Indra, Mitra, Varuna- Thier names are clearly Aryan!

        They even use aeka instead of the Iranian “aeva” placing them in the vicinity of the Indo Aryans Proper.

        Your comment that there was no writing in India 7000 BP maybe true but you are forgetting that Sanskrit is a sacerdotal language which was

        impeccably preserved.

        It may not mean much to you but in High School I took Latin for 4 years and Studied A.P. latin and translated all of Julius Casears De Bello

        Galici ( of the Gallic Wars). And I grew up learning, reciting, and speaking sanskrit (because I am a brahmin). Knowing both languages I can
        attest that Sanskrit is a far more archaic from of an IE language than Latin and retains many archaic features such as retroflex stops,

        bilabial fricatives, pitch accents, trimoraic vowels, retroflex lateral approximants, and diphthongs. The inflection and usage of the

        subjective mood is also indicative of a much more arachic language in my eyes.

        What say you to all of this?


        Ajay Sharma

        • Nothing. I simply reject everything that you wrote, that’s all. I support the Aryan Incursion Theory, primarily on the impeccable linguistic grounds that support it. If you reject the AIT, then you must posit an Out of India Theory for Indo-European, which is obviously absolutely ridiculous.

          Michael Witzel has taken apart the bits on astronomy and the Saraswati River very well. M17 is not IE. M17 goes back all the way to 17,000 YBP. Sure, maybe M17 originated in India 17,000 YBP, but that does negate the AIT. Also, M17 does not support the OIT, because IE only goes back 8-9,000 YBP. The Aryans had bronze. The Indians did not have bronze. They brought bronze with them.

          The truth is that the AIT is supported by every single serious scholar on the face of the Earth, and the OIT is supported by none of them. The only humans who believe in the OIT and reject the AIT are Indian Hindus and their Hindutvadi followers. That ought to tell you something right there – that they are simply wrong.

          One of the horrific things about modern day Hindus is that just about every single educated Hindu you meet is frankly a Hindutvadi fanatic. There’s simply no difference between a Hindutvadi and a Hindu anymore, with a few exceptions here and there.

        • Ajay Sharma

          Your response of “nothing” and the fact that you failed to explain even a bit of the evidence I have given clearly shows your inability to

          consider any position other than your own. As scientists we must strive to be objective rather than subjective as you clearly are. This is

          certainly not how advances in science and knowledge are attained. On the contrary, this is how incorrect and outdated ideas such as

          spontaneous generation, phlogiston theory, vitalism, phrenology, and the idea that the world is flat were perpetuated, impeding the progress

          of science and delving into the realm of quackery. If the IVC was completely unrelated to Vedic Culture as you and Witzel (who is a

          philologist- not an archeologist) claim why are Vedic Fire altars (built to very precise specifications), shiva lingas,and steatite seals

          with hindu mythology doing in every IVC city?

          You said ” I support the AIT, primarily on the impeccable linguistic grounds that support it.” I will demonstrate to you that there are many

          internationally renowned linguists and philologists from all over the world who hold positions contrary to your esteemed Michael Witzel.

          First of all since you are claiming that linguistics is the best evidence for the AIT (when in fact this is the weakest evidence to cite if

          you are trying to support AIT), it would do you a lot of good to study the very history of linguistics.

          The very founders of modern European linguistics ( a la Franz Bopp, Johannes Freidrich, Frits Staal, Roman Jacobson, Ferdinande de Saussure,

          Louis Herbert Gray, Leonard Bloomfield, Carl Abel, George Adler, Jules Bloch) themselves claimed to have been heavily influenced by Panini

          the Grammarian and Philologist from the 6th Century B.C. who was author of Astadhayi the first treatise on formal linguistics published by

          humanity. It is widely accepted even by European Schoalars that European linguistics was only catalyzed by Europes contact with the work of

          Sanskrit grammarians. In fact, Ferdinand de Saussure ( the founder of modern structural linguistics) himself claimed that the work of ancient

          Indian grammarians significantly influenced his work- and that Panini was his greatest influence. These are all indisputable facts. Leonard

          Bloomfield (the father of American Structuralism) and the esteemed Fritz Staal both cite Panini and Brthrihari his successor as their

          greatest influence- and these are thier own words. Gottlob Frege puts it more explicity directly stating that without the work of Indian

          Grammarians formal linguistics would not exist.

          The interesting part of all of this is that Paninni was not even the most accomplished or oldest Vedic linguist. Paninni’s predecessor Yaska

          (author of the Nirkuta) lived in the 8th Century B.C. and wrote about such complex linguistic forms as phenome, morphome, ablaut, pallatalas,

          thematic presents, gerundives, aorists, just to name a few. Im sure you will be delighted to learn that Yaska himself was preceded by

          Sakatayana ( who wrote the famous Lksana Shastra) of the the 9th Century B.C. Sakatayana was preceded by Ghritsamada and Shaunaka of the 11th

          and 12th centuries B.C. respectively. The point is that the Vedic people had a complex system of formal linguistics which was unparalleled

          anywhere in the world for about three thousand years until the Europeans discovered it, copied it, and applied it to various other languages.

          Therefore, it is hilarious to assume that the Aryans came to India circa 1500 B.C. bearing Sanskrit- with such a well developed system of

          formal linguistics in India extending to at least 1200 B.C. Furthermore, can you name one European culture that had a similar system of

          linguistics? You cant because the Europeans didnt know what formal linguistics was until the 18th century when they started studying

          Sanskrit. Sure the Ancient Greeks had rhetoric and logic (that too only started around the 4th or 5th century B.C.) but no knowledge of

          formal linguistics.

          Asko Parpola an indologist and Professor Emeritus of Indology (itself a highly biased and somewhat racist discipline) at the University of

          Helinski, Finland has refuted Micael Witzels arguements regarding his opinion on the influence of substrtum in vedic sanskrit many times. Do

          you know what that is and why it is relevant to a debate involving the AIT?

          Much of the evidence of dravidian substratum in Vedic used by Witzel was compiled by Thomas Burrow (Boden Professor of Sanskrit at Oxford).

          By the end of his career he had redacted almost 380 of the 500 words he claimed were evidence of a dravidian substratum in Sanskrit. This

          shines light on the sketchy evidence used by Witzel for making this arguement ( in my opinion one of his strongest arguements). Furthermore,

          Paul Thieme (Professor of Indology at Gottingen, Breslau, Yale, and later the University of Tubingen) has clearly stated that the dravidian

          etymologies for evidence of substratum in Sanskrit were wrong and he gives appropriate etymologies for these words (the few which burrow

          didnt take back) in Sanskrit or Indo Aryan. Keep in mind Paul Thieme was one of the worlds foremost linguists and Indologists considered one

          of the “last great indologists” was he a hindutva crazy too? This argument is further supported by Mayhoffer himself an expert in this field.

          Hans Heinrich Hock the Professor Emeritus of Comparitive Linguistics and Sanskrit ( University of Illinois Urbana Champaign- Ph.d in

          Linguistics from Yale) has directly attacked Witzels arguement stating that the various syntactical developments in Indo Aryan are the result

          of Adstratum rather than substrate influences. This has also been supported by Bertil Tikkanen of the University of Helinski in Finland.

          About retroflexion Tikkanen takes the following position- “in view of the strictly areal implications of retroflexion and the occurrence of

          retroflexes in many early loanwords, it is hardly likely that Indo-Aryan retroflexion arose in a region that did not have a substratum with


          DO you think all of these scientists ( most of them at the top of thier fields and none of them bieng Indian or hindu) are part of the

          “hindutva conspiracy”? What do they have to gain?

          Also you said “Witzel takes apart the arguments on the Saraswati very well” Care to elaborate? How can he refute radiometric dating when he

          is but a philologist not a hydrologist, archeologist, or a paleohydrology expert like the scientists I have cited?

          The hilarious part of the arguments of AIT supporters is that they are scrambling to find evidence for the Pontic-Caspian Steppe hypothesis,

          Armenian hypothesis, Kurgan Hypothesis, Anatolian hypthesis, or Bactria- Sogdianan hypothesis without understanding that Greater India easily

          extended past Afghanistan into Modern day Eastern Iran, which is but a few hundred miles from these locations. I have already shown the Indo

          Aryans to be in Asia Minor with An Indo Aryan elite imposing themselves upon the Hurrians and Mittani. You still didnt reply to the evidence

          I cited showing them to use aeka instead of the Iranic Aeva. The kikulli manurscipt of the 14th century B.C. clearly shows Agni, Indra,

          Mitra, and varuna bieng worshipped as well as thier names bieng clearly sanskrit names.

          I would love to see what what you have to say to the enormous amounts of evidence I have presented. The scientists whose arguements I have

          cited are some of the worlds foremost experts in their fields that too from many Ivy league schools. Are they somehow part of the hindutva

          conspiracy too? how about you acutally use real scientific evidence to reply to what I have to say instead of “blah blah blah” or ” i refute

          your argument”

          I have been polite but in scientific discourse or debate your opinion or my opinion hardly matters it is clear concrete proof that matters.

          And everyday the evidence is growing that AIT is an outdated and false fabrication. The very name of the out of india theory itself is

          misleading becuase India today is but a small fraction of the great cuultural force it used to be. However it is a fact that the AIT theory

          is losing precedence day by day and will be shelved to the vestiges of pseudoscience and scientific racism.

          Lets hear what you have to say Robert I would love to continue this intellectual debate so long as you use real science and not your opinion

          which means nothing to me.

        • The AIT theory is not losing any adherents at all. 100% of world experts outside of India regard it as simple fact. Only hacks, kooks and nuts (oh and Indians!) continue to reject this obvious scientific fact, on the spurious grounds of insane Indian nationalism.

          I don’t know much about archeology. There may well have been some continuity between IVC and the later Aryans as the Aryans conquered to abandoned IVC, and it was abandoned, BTW.

          The so-called linguists who reject AIT and instead support OIT are all kooks, nuts, fakes and frauds (oh and Indians too, I forget!). We have already dealt with their so-called evidence in prior posts. There was no OIT movement for Indo-European. IE did not begin in India as psycho Indian lunatics insist. No one, but no one, but no one believes that IE came out of India. No one other than insane Indians.

          Also you psycho Hindu fool, I am banning you on the grounds of hostile tone. Now go back to your filthy Hindu shithole.

        • Asko Parpola is a looney tune nutcase. You Hindu dogs deserve a “racist discipline” like Indology. It’s perfect for you because it’s impossible to study you without turning racist against you because you are so abhorrent. Most of the linguists you mentioned, especially Hock, support the AIT and reject the OIT.

        • Dota

          Romila Thapur also lists further evidence that the Rig Veda references flora and fauna unfamiliar to the Harrapans while the latter feature flora and fauna (on their seals) that are unfamiliar to the Rig Veda text. She lists this as further evidence of an outside incursion into India. I’ve got her book around here somewhere, I’ll post a reference if I can.


          hats off ajay sharma continue you have done great thing, what ever the blal bla historians like robert lindsey say, the indian knowledge will not vanish they donot know the inherent strength of these vedas they are all biased historians ,my sincear suggestion to them is come and live in india at different parts of india then they will realize the true strength of the indian knowledge i.e vedas

        • the swastika is found all over the world, even in american caves, that were supposedly separated from all other blood lines for at least 10,000 years. the first related DNA to natives found Its way to europa, in mongolia. it was a 24,000 years old boy, and only 25% of his dna was native american and it had already mutated from its prospective asian ancestor. before that point. which means the berring straight theory is backwards. natives traveled to europe, not from europe to become what they were before the european invasion. the rest of his DNA was Rb1 most closely related to the english and surrounding area bloodlines of today. other bodies found there were close to 100% Rb1. so white people covered mongolia and surrounding areas as far back as 24,000 ybp. and later disapeared from the area entirely. Rb1 gets some of its ancestory from Turkey and so did the minoans. It wasn’t an aryan invasion. it was an escape. they were running away from something packed up entire families. flood, eruption, war what ever. I am still doing research. native americans mention a man in white that gave them tablets of knowledge as well. saying someday he would return. oddly natives kept their translation of it in song as well they also harvest the same crops and have been doing so since before the european invasion. but the biggest connection is in their way of life. meditation, cleansing of spirit through baptism type ritual etc. guardians of the earth. both of which hold a very large connection to the Druids and nature. I am curious how the hindu would translate the hopi tablets as oppossed to what the hopi have. hopi believe now that this man was actually a celestial type thing. but no one really knows for sure. I think they are confused when they talk about aliens, verses planetary eclipes etc. the hopi tablets carbon dating were considered between 10,000-50,000 ybp. there are other tablets in Tibet, and in Kenya. the 3rd that was supposed to be in the north (thought to be Sweden) is missing. it may have been an attempt to protect their knowledge by taking it elsewhere possibly even to the hindu. they are to be traded with the ones in Kenya as the story goes. http://www.godsdirectcontact.com/teachings/SPECIALhope.html

        • Harsha

          Dear Ajay,
          The sincerity with which you presented are not appreciated by racists and communists. with the new research and amazing papers presented by scholars like Aklujkar on saraswati and very recent confirmation by hydrologists that the river dried atleast before 1900 BCE proves the antiquity of RV. People like you need not fight with this unbiased opinions with “positive white identity”

          wonderful erudition..


      • Aryan

        Aryvarta is Pakistan,IranAfghan and India.
        Arya people only existed in the Indus Valley,according to the evidence.There was no invasion.

        • ARYAN Huns, Scythian peoples, Parsi, Mongols, ancient Syrian Christians in the South, Greeks.

          They all invaded or at least intruded into India.

          Why would Aryans be any different?

  3. Dota-Player

    A few things need to be said and clarified here seeing as how shocked some of you people are at the intense bullshit coming out of Hindutva sources.


    Hindutva ‘scholars’ are usually a bunch of hatemongers at their core without any actual qualifications who generally quote dubious sources. The point is not to convince western readers (it would never work) but to dupe Indians living in the motherland and abroad. These individuals are extremely intellectually dishonest and in a place like India, they are taken quite seriously. These people play the communal card to consolidate the vote bank for the hard line and Hindu fascist BJP party. For example, some Hindutvadis have attempted to smear the name of Tipu Sultan by claiming he oppressed Hindus and Christians. After some looking up, I realized that many of these bogus claims came from a highly dubious source called the “Malabar manual” published in the 18th century by William Logan. The British would often circulate false reports about Muslim atrocities against Hindus to undermine Indian nationalism. However, the Hindutvadis have no qualms quoting such a document while also stating how evil the British were. Since the Hindutvadis were essentially doing the Brit’s dirty work, no major leader of theirs was ever prosecuted by the Brits (to my knowledge). Other genuine Indian patriots such as Bhagat Singh, Ram Prasad and Ashfaq were executed and killed in combat. Gandhi was assasinated by a member of the Hindutva RSS party, which is now the head organization of the ‘sangh parivar’ in India.

    Here’s another amusing article about how the Muslim Qabaa was originally a Hindu temple

    Notice that the article bears the typical Hindutva touch by failing to quote any sources or using any references. Again, this is for the Indians’ benefit, not westerners.

    “””””The article claims that the Om symbol appears in the Taj. I don’t know if it’s true, but what if it is? It’s a matter of historical record that many Moghul rulers tended to be as syncretist as it was possible to be while still identifying as Muslims. One of them (Babar, I think) actually seriously explored creating his own religion.””””””

    That was Akbar, who created a hybrid Hindu/Islam religion called “deen-e-ilahi” The religion wasn’t very popular, but showed the Mogul’s commitment to pluralism and tolerance. Aurangzeb was the exception.

    Now for Robert’s post

    couple of points:

    1) “””I am not sure why Hindutvas want to push the dating the Rig Vedas back so far. Can anyone help me here?””””””

    You partially answered your own question in the following 2 paragraphs, however, remember the Hindutva rule of thumb: Hinduism IS indigenous to India. So even if there was an Aryan migration into India, they were merely balled over by this noble religion and converted into it, rather than introducing it.

    2) “””The Egyptian pyramids had to have been built using ancient Indian mathematical knowledge.””””

    Another absurd claim, but there is a method to their madness. Hindutva initially began as a highly xenophobic and fascist ideology that has in the last decade also become extremely chauvinistic. It is not uncommon for these people to now take credit for the heritages of other peoples. Claims such as the Indians helped the Egyptians build the pyramids and that the Pre-Islamic Arabs were also Hindus (thus cementing the Hindutva view that Islam was opposed to Hinduism from the very start!) are now fairly common place in Hindutva literature.

    3) “””The Aryan Invasion Theory was used by Hitler to commit genocide.”””

    This last point is a shocking example of Hindutva duplicity. It’s common knowledge that the architects of the Hindutva, savarkar and Moonje were openly supportive of Nazism. In fact, Moonje even personally met up with Musolini in 1931 to get a first hand tutorial in fascism. This pro nazi policy has led some political analysts in recent decades to comment on the strange alliance between Hindutva and zionism.

    I’m going to post again tomorrow if I have the time. I’ll post on Muslim Indian nationalism in your other thread. Indian Muslim nationalists have their share of crazies too, amusing, in a pathetic sort of way.

    Sorry for the long post and please excuse any typos, as its a little late =p

  4. The Rigveda dates are really questionable. Its written in Sanskrit. But initially sanskrit doesn’t have any scripts to keep it in written form. So it is transferred from one generation to the next generation in the oral form. And the geographical notes clearly says that the developer moved from west Afghanistan to northwest India. It clearly shows the invasion of some group from Europe to India. The Sanskrit language had so-many derived words from European origin languages. (Example: word – warda_ha, duo – do, three – tri. septum – sapta, Gen – Gen, Book – Pusthak, Jwel – joli, mid – math, etc…)

    Early Rigveda is not Austro-asiatic (south Asian) nature. But the later Rigveda has so many derived words from Dravidian languages. And in the later version the style is greatly influenced by the Tamil book Tholkappiyam (tholkaappiyam). The scholars suggest that 7th century BC may be the Tholkappiyam’s date. So the latter Rigveda cannot be dated before 7th century BC.

    There is a strong reason why the Hindutva wants to push the date back. They want to prove that the Hindu is the native religion of India. There are many works like Tholkappiyam don’t talk about Hindu Gods. Those books mostly favour the natural worships. But the Hindutva want to say “On the time of mentioned natural worship started Hindu had come to existence already” so it is necessary for them to push the date back. And Rigveda is the oldest religious book. This is why they want to push it back.

    And the mythical stories like Ramayana & Mahabaratha has no historical evidence. But if the Ramayana & Mahabaratha is proved as a great lie. Then total Hindutva will become baseless. So they wanted to make it pre-historic. So pushing back the date of Rigveda as before as possible will definitely help to do that.

    And Rigveda is one of the oldest book for Sanskrit. Sanskrit is also a non Dravidian language of India. And Sanskrit people wanted to show Sanskrit is older than the Dravidian language and the Dravidian people wanted to show Dravidian is the oldest language. This race is to make themselves as the native people of India. Sanskrit people claims Tamil (purest Dravidian language in India) is derived from Sanskrit. But the Tamil has its grammar book, Tholkappiyam dated 7th – 3rd century BC. That clearly states that Tamil has come to a well grown farm before 7th – 3rd century BC. And Tholkappiyam is from the 3rd Tamil Congress (3rd Tamil Sangam) there are some notes or statements in old Tamil poetical works talking about the date and rulers of the 1st & 2nd Tamil Sangam (There is no material evidence has been found favoring this statements.). If it is proved to be true then the date, when the Tamil obtained developed nature, will be pushed 2-7 millennium before the current date. So to make others believe, the Sanskrit peoples have to prove that Sanskrit had obtained its developed form well before Tamil and hence Sanskrit was the base for Tamil to born and develop. But this claim can be considered rubbish as Tamil & early Rigvedic Sanskrit has no similarities. And the later scripts Indo-Aryan nature. Indirectly it can be called Dravidian-Aryan (Tamil-Aryan) nature.

    The Sanskrit lovers (major Hindutva people) win the support of others in the name of God first. And then they did it with a famous quote “Sanskrit is the language of God”. There are many people believe that God has taught language to mankind and all other languages are derived from that. So if the God’s language is Sanskrit then the first language would be Sanskrit. So if Sanskrit or the oldest Sanskrit work is dated after other native Indian languages like Tamil (purest Dravidian). Then no one will believe in Hindutva. This is why they are always trying to push the date as before as possible…

  5. Rupert

    I tried posting similar replies in several blogs which tries to push the date back before the correct date. But nothing has worked out. I thought my little research would never be considered. But at last it got posted. Thanks for posting my reply. Here are some more evidence to predict the proper date of the Rigveda

    1. Aryan invasion(in India) also suggests that Aryans might have migrated to India from northwest. This doesn’t mean nobody was there at the time of migration. So can be called as a invasion.

    2: There is a strong evidence in the Rigveda for the migration from north west. (The geographical information given in Rigveda changes from the beginning of the Book to the end in a sequence supporting the migration from the northwest.

    3.The migration derived from the Rigveda cannot be date back before Indus valley civilization. Because then it should be dated before B.C. 7000. The language spoken by the present people at that place is a Indo-Aryan(Sanskrit) derived language. So if it is dated back before B.C.7000. The period of Sanskrit derived language speaking people will become B.C.7000 to till date. But the Indus people (B.C.7000 – B.C.1300) had spoken a language which is almost clueless till date. This suggests there would not be any overlap in time. This clearly shows the mistake in the prediction of any one of the date. Carbon aging calculations proves the Indus valley period. So the mistake would only happen in the date of the migration. It can only be dated back before and cannot be date back before Indus valley civilization. (From that it is confirmed that Rigveda is after Indus valley civilization. I am putting forward the further points on the basis of this fact).

    4. Indus valley civilization itself has crossed the entire Bronze age (3300 – 1300 BCE, source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indus_Valley_Civilization). If the migration happened after the Indus valley civilization as mentioned in point 3, Rigveda can not be dated back before B.C 1300.

    5. There are several evidence which suggests the period of Indus valley and the Rigveda cannot be overlapped. (A)There is no reference in Rigveda about the big cities or important places found in Indus valley. (B)There is no evidence in Rigveda about the Indus peoples architectural skills. (C)There is no evidence in Rigveda about the tubed drainage found in Indus valley. (D)There is no evidence in Rigveda about the. (E) There is no evidence in Rigveda about water reservoir or ponds found in Indus valley. (D) There is no evidence in Rigveda about water Urn burials found in Indus valley.

    6. The Rigveda people might not even know about Indus valley as the civilization had been destroyed without a trace. This suggest the migration could happen long after the Indus valley civilization.

    7. The Rigvedic people might not even know about cottons. This could happen if they had an alternate source.

  6. Mayank Sharma

    It seems that the writer of the above articles has lost his analytical skills and he is biased with AMT He is possessed by AMT AND over looks all the facts presented by Hindu scholars. This gentleman is low at IQ level. He should thorougly study Indian religious scriptures and help himself to over come this narrow minded and biased attitude. He would do really good, if he comes to India and spend some time here with enlightened souls.

    • The people who don’t have analytical skill should not blame others. Please give evidence and then comment. I am an Indian have studied Indian religious scriptures also. The low IQ man cannot get the science support in finding out the truth. And the man with narrow minded and the biased attitude will not listen to a man speaking with evidence. The biased people will not think beyond which they were bound (here it is religious bound). The narrow minded people will not accept others, even though they come with strong reason or evidence.
      The people read this blog will clearly understand who has analytical skill and who don’t have, who has IQ and who don’t have, who is broad minded and unbiased and who is not.

      • Thx for the compliment, Mr. Indian.

      • Vinod

        When someone told mr Lindsay about Sarasvati river here is what he have to say :-

        “Bla bla bla bla Sarasvati Bla bla bla Vedas Bla bla bla 1900 BC Bla bla bla river dried up Bla bla bla.”

        No i suppose MR. Lindsay is showing his analytical skills here in the fav language of AIT scholars (AIT:- An idiot’s theory) the PIE. lol idiots are writing blogs these days…

    • Abhishek Tiwari

      i agree with you mr. sharma !

      • All right, I am banning you.

        • Dear Mr.Lindsay … i suppose you’d believe everything that can be collaborated with some evidence abstract or otherwise. Please don’t take offense to what I’m about to say, its not my culture to hurl abuse or insult at anyone per se, so I apologies in advance if it would even slightly hurt your thoughts or perspective .. Had their been no medical advancement in DNA profiling and testing to confirm paternity of an individual, your only way to know that you were born of a single father would’ve been your mother … you just cant call anyone ‘Father/Daddy’ …. its the mother who points you to a person and tells you that he’s your daddy. And do you ask your mother for evidence … you just believe outright and start calling him Daddy .. my point here is not to tell you that you should believe everything you possibly can with the help your five senses – eyes – to see, nose- to smell, mouth – to taste, ears – to hear and hands – to feel. But yet with all these mechanisms and the latest advancements in science I suppose you still believe what your mom said and has continued to call that person your father and I’m sure he is. Seeing or hearing or touching does not produce truth …. its a merely complicated reality that manifests itself in the most unappreciated moments provided it is sought. When you comment about a culture or a civilization that is not known to you or your near dear ones .. rather than pressing your perspective on others you should venture out and about to seek the truth … only and only then you will see the real deal. You say that you’re an Indian, I have my own reasons to believe that you’re not, even if you are you’d most probably be a half bred Indian living abroad thinking the best place on earth is far away from India …. to know India and the people who lived there, the civilization you should first know the true spirit of India – your best bet is to spent some quality time with a self-realized soul … somewhere deep inside the Himalayas would be a better start. Having said that Self REALIZATION is not something you can find in a Walmart store, its beyond your understanding .. but if you seek truth with an open mind, you shall receive!. Man was able to send himself to moon because he could see it from earth, so to say if you can see it, you can achieve it. Good luck

        • anna cafrey

          Typical demonstration of: white, male, privilege! Your colonial, fascist attitudes are abundant!
          As a feminist and recent convert to hindu/buddhist spirituality, I find your abhorrent, ad hominem hatred of hindus as racist, colonial, and tentatively grounded from some sort of insecurity.

          Do no worry, cis white guys rule the world, the rest including us white women remain in your humble servitude.

        • What’s the matter baby? You seem to be upset about something. Here, let Daddy comfort you sweetheart.

          And while I am comforting you, I am also going to ban your cute little ass, honey.


  7. Manoj Pashte

    Robert first of all get your facts clear.
    1)Aryan is not a race it was only stated by Max Muller later he also retracted from the same. Arya means a righteous and a noble man and Arya means a righteous and a noble women. The terms are widely used in the sanskrit language and written in many scriptures.

    2)The Saraswati river existed and was in full flow from about 9000 yrs ago from today due to earthquakes the river dissapeared.

    3)Mohenjodaro was never destroyed by war but it was abandoned due to shortage of water as the river subsided due to upheavels in the crust.

    4)The Rig Veda does not find mention of any city lying in the far north of Europe or also in the mediterenian. This is proof enough that the people of India are not intruders as has been shown to be by the European history writers.
    Will write back

    5)The astronomical proofs in the Rig Veda have to be taken into account.

    • Rajeev

      Hello Manoj,
      Why are we wasting time trying to convince this ( Lindsay “Lohan” ) obviously bigoted and biased ” pseudo- intellectual”. His IQ is the level of a school boy ,,,, which is evident from his childish ramblings,,, a ploy no doubt he adopted when he could not find any reply ,,,, if he had any intention of joining in a civil debate he would not have resorted to this deliberately insulting/ childish language.

      Anyway,,, I came across a scholarly analysis by Mr , Michael Danino ( The Lost River ISBN 9780143068648 , Penguin Books ) which makes it clear that the Indus Valley Civilization was actually also the Saraswati Civilization , as is evident by several hundreds of Harrapan like cities found scattered around the dried river bed located in Haryana, Northern Rajasthan , Cholistan ( Pakistan ) and Gujarat ( North of the Rann of Kutch ) . As this river dried out between 2600 to 1900 BC , the Vedas that refer to a fast flowing Saraswati and which have correctly mentioned the location of this river as being between Yamuna and Sutlej, must have been composed around 3000BC , in INDIA. However the theory that Aryans went OUT OF INDIA , just does not hold water . Infact archeologists are puzzled by the sudden appearance of the Indus Valley civilization around 3500 BC,,, they could not find signs of the cities being inhabited prior to this date,,, as they have found in the case of the Egyptian and Sumerian Cities.

      To me this is because the people who founded the Indus Valley Civilization were none other than the Aryans and they migrated into India around 3600 BC ( not at 1900 to 1500 BC as has been believed ) . This explains the numerous similarities between the Indus Valley Artifacts and the present form of Hinduism , ( which has developed after the Saraswati river dried out the Saraswati Aryans migrated further east and settled in the Gangetic plain .)

      I think that the synthesis of data from the various scientific disciplines , such as geology, climatology and archeology are now making it difficult for anyone to prove that the dried out river bed of a large river in Northern River is not the “mythical” river that the Aryans so loved– the Saraswati . And this provides the proof that the Vedas and the Mahabharata were composed at a much earlier date than that which was thought in the past.

      • Ok you’re banned elephant jockey.

        • There are evidences there that Indus valley people were living on the banks of the river till BC.2000. But no materials were unearthed from the river. that indicates. The river wasn’t dried up. And the rig veda is not saying about the people of Indus valley. If the Rigveda was composed before rig veda it would say about Indus Valley people. At the least it would leave a clue on this. Rig veda talks about the drying of saraswathi river too. This indicates Rig Veda had been completed after Saraswathi river dried up. And even now the people in that area are speaking the sanskrit derived languages. Before and after Indus valley civilization aryan lived or sanskrit people live or the people who composed Rigveda lived. But they didn’t know about Indus Valley people is an conflicting statement. The people having true intellectuals can understand this.

          & Coming to Mahabharata. It was written after Ramayana. If Rama lived too early he wouldn’t have needed to build bridge to reach SriLanka. Even 60 years back people were used to go Vivekanda rock, which is inside the see now, by walk. Still many people were able to swim across the sea to reach Srilanka from India. They are able to do it because. The place is not actually very deep. This says Ramayana is written much later. & Ramayana doesn’t talk about the ports, harbours & capitals of South Indian Kings like Pandyan. What ever the names given to the Rude man (Asuras) in Ramayana. We can find a great Tamil king with the same name. Ramayana is a big story made to dominate the South Indians, especially who spoke Tamil in the name of Asuras. & the Mythology itself is saying Mahabharata itself is several generations later to Ramayana. And the linguistic research says that it was composed at 1st century AD.

          And one more sad thing is people are claiming that sanskrit is the first language of the world. And all the other languages were born as the people pronounce sanskrit words incorrect. And this is never ever supported by Linguistic research

        • Vinod

          Do u know anything else other than banning lol idiot

        • Yes I know how to ban you, slumdog.

          Good God, another retarded Hindu intellectual. Pitiful!

  8. Manoj Pashte

    Hello Rajeev
    I must agree with you that the language which Robert uses is unparliamentary. I would like to point out to you that Aryan is not a race as I have alredy specified in my earlier note.
    According to the European Indologists the identification of Sandrocottus (325 B.C.) of the Greeks with Chandragupta Maurya by Sir Jones was considered to be the “sheet anchor” and based on this assumption, a chronology of Indian history was constructed. We have to remember that there are 2 Chandragupta in Indian history. One is Chandragupta Maurya of the Maurya dynasty and the other Chandragupta is of the Gupta dynasty. The identification of Sandrocottus (325 B.C.) of the Greeks with Chandragupta Maurya by Sir Jones is incorrect for many reasons. The foremost being that the Greek chronicles do not mention of Chanakya the Guru of Chandragupta, Bindusar (Son) and Ashok(Grandson) of Chandragupta.

    The Greek records mention Xandramas and Sandrocyptus as the kings immediately before and after Sandrocottus. These names in any way are not phonetically similar to Mahapadma Nanda and Bindusar, who were the predecessor and successors of Chandragupta Maurya, respectively. However, if Sandrocottus refers to Chandragupta of the Gupta dynasty, the Xandramas reckons to be his predecessor Chandrashree alias Chandramas and Sandrocyptus to be Samudragupta.

    Coming back to the age of the Rig Veda

    Hymn XL. Indra. Surya. Atri.
    1. COME thou to what the stones have pressed, drink Soma, O thou Soma’s Lord,
    Indra best Vrtra-slayer Strong One, with the Strong.

    2 Strong is the stone, the draught is strong, strong is this Soma that is pressed,
    Indra, best Vrtra-slayer, Strong One with the Strong.

    3 As strong I call on thee the Strong, O Thunder-armed, with various aids,
    Indra, best Vrtra-slayer, Strong One with the Strong.

    4 Impetuous, Thunderer, Strong, quelling the mighty, King, potent, Vrtra-slayer, Soma-drinker,
    May he come hither with his yoked Bay Horses; may Indra gladden him at the noon libation.

    5 O Surya, when the Asura’s descendant Svarbhanu, pierced thee through and through with darkness,
    All creatures looked like one who is bewildered, who knoweth not the place where he is standing.

    6 What time thou smotest down Svarbhanu’s magic that spread itself beneath the sky, O Indra,
    By his fourth sacred prayer Atri discovered Surya concealed in gloom that stayed his function.

    7 Let not the oppressor with this dread, through anger swallow me up, for I am thine, O Atri.
    Mitra art thou, the sender of true blessings: thou and King Varuna be both my helpers.

    8 The Brahman Atri, as he set the press-stones, serving the Gods with praise and adoration,
    Established in the heaven the eye of Surya, and caused Svarbhanu’s magic arts to vanish.

    9 The Atris found the Sun again, him whom Svarbhanu of the brood
    Of Asuras had pierced with gloom. This none besides had power to do.

    “An interesting chronological marker is the solar-eclipse described in RgVeda5:40:5-9(given above is the full hymn of book 5 of the Rig Veda). It is described as a central, non-total eclipse which took place on the afternoon on the Kurukshetra meridian on a given day after summer solstice. The interesting thing about this event, vis-a-vis an argument, is that it does not involve measuring angles, there is no scope of error, and it involves the Sun, the identification of which can not be questioned for any reason at all by the “conservative school”. There is only one day that
    satisfies that condition described – 26th July 3928BC”

    There are many more proofs but later about that Rajeev. Robert once again the proofs glaring at you are ignored by you. May you find the right path and may God bless you.

    • Xera

      It does not matter what he says, the main point is that India is a shithole thats not going to go anywhere in the near future.

      • Manoj Pashte

        Xera dont talk besides the point involved. We are talking about the rig Veda. You are a non entity to say anything about India what you think is of no importance.

        • Xera

          No thats the point that Robert was trying to make in relation to India, and c’mon you & I know India will never amount to anything much in the future.

        • Jaipal


          Its funny how Xera who comes from shithole Egypt talks so much about other races.
          Egyptians are nothing. Xera talks about strenght and what not but look at Egypt’s
          history of 2000 plus years of foreign domination. He even admits that he’s a mutt,
          a product of multiple rape by outsiders! He should have some shame!
          But as you pointed out quite correctly, he’s a low-IQ sand-nigger with sand for brains!

          One of their ex-Premiers, Anwar Sadat, observing Egypt’s history sarcastically
          remarked that he was the first genuine Egyptian to come rule Egypt in more than 2000

        • Jaipal


          India has developed its own nuclear and missile programmes! Something your shithole
          Egypt has never done. We just tested a 5000 km missile that could nuke your shithole
          Egypt if we wanted to! A couple years back we sent a mooncraft to the moon!
          What the fuck has Egypt done?? You guys are fuckin beggars before America living on
          American financial handouts just so your pathetic country can stay afloat! LOL LOL!!!
          What have you guys got to show after 40 fuckin years of handouts, huh??
          Have you become a developed country?? Egypt will go nowhere, though India might
          if its governance improves.

          Now, go to your sandbox and fuck your camel and drink camel piss!
          Your religion is “PISS-SLAM”

  9. Forgetting linguistic research find outs. And interpreting the text as they wanted is a big fault.

    • Manoj Pashte

      linguistics is not the only proof. there are other proofs which you tend to overlook

      you talk about the invasion of the city of Mohenjodaro by the Aryans (by the way Aryan is not a race). In fact only about 37 skeletons of the period to which you attribute the invasion have been unearthed in the excavation of the walled city of Mohenjodaro. For your information all the 37 skeletons unerthed were observed to be properly buried NOT MASSACRED. The absence of arrow heads and weapons show that there was no war. Why is this fact not taken note of?

      the river Euphrates or for that matter any other river from the mediterranian or from northern europe does not find mention in the Rig Veda. The land which is described in the Rig Veda is the land from the Himalays to the Indian ocean in the south and the land from Iran to east India. The religious places of the followers of the Sanatan Dharma are in India and not out side in Europe.

      the city of Dwarka has also been unearthed in the Gulf of Khambat (Cambay). the carbon dating of the artefacts discovered goes back to 8000 yrs.

      Ashva in sanskrit means horse and the word occurs many times in the Rig Veda.

      Ayas in sanskrit means iron

      Modern science also clearly authenticates the proof.

  10. Yes. It cannot be called as invasion. In first post I’ve said it.. It is migration. And thank you for reminding me about horse. In fact there were no symbols found with horse. in Indus valley civilization. But at the initial stage the symbol of Ox’s were modified to look alike horse. Recently it was found that those symbol were modified. And original symbols Oxs symbol were found. And the architecture of Indus valley people has no clue Rig veda.

    No one can prove that the unearthed city is the city mentioned in RigVeda. Rig veda and Indus valley civilization was on the same territory. So it can be either Rig-veda’s or Indus valley people’s. If the city is Rig-veda’s then prove with architectural evidences and things which the people used. For your information this have connections with Indus valley people through out the entire region.

    Inidan ocean can be mentioned in Rig-veda that doesn’t mean that they have lived there. that means they had knowledge about that.

    • Manoj Pashte

      The Vedic people were indigenous people there was no migration or invasion. The theory of migration or invasion have no proofs documentary or archiological. The evidence against any such invasion or migration is more or less non existent. To begin with, (Vedic) sites spread over such a vast stretch, measuring well over a thousand miles would not have been all abandoned simultaneously due to the incursion of (the so called)nomadic bands at one extremity. Further, there is profuse archaeological evidence including the presence of sacrificial altars that go to show that the Harappans were part of the Vedic fold.

      ” The late Vedic literature includes mathematical texts known as the Sulba-sutras which contain detailed instruction for the building of sacrificial altars. After a study spanning more than 20 years, the distinguished American mathematician and historian of science, Abraham Seidenberg showed that the Sulba-sutras are the source of both Egyptian and old Babylonian mathematics. The Egyptian texts based on the Sulba-sutras go back to before 2,000 BCE. This provides independent comfirmation that Indian mathematical knowledge existed long before that date, i.e. during the height of the Harappan era.
      The sulba-sutras are part of the vedic religious literature known as the Kalpasutras. They were created originally to serve as technical manuals for the design and construction of Vedic altars. As previously noted, Harappan sites contain many such altars, a fact that supplies a link between Vedic literature and Harappan archaeology. It serves also to show that the Vedic literature could not have been brought in by any invaders – they were needed for building the altars that are very much part of the Harappan archaeology! The sulba-sutra are the oldest mathematical texts known. A careful comparison of the sulba-sutras with the mathematics of Egypt and old Babylonia led Abraham Seidenberg to conclude:
      “… the elements of ancient geometry found in Egypt and old Babylonia stem from a ritual system of the kind found in the Sulba-sutras.”
      What is interesting is that the origins of ancient mathematics are to be found in religion and ritual. So the great engineering feats of the Harappans can be seen as secular off-shoots of the religious mathematics found in Vedic literature. The ‘ritual mathematics’ in the Sulba-sutras led eventually to the purely secular achievements of the Harappans like city planning and the design of harbours”.

      The proofs are every where and for every one to see one just needs to see.

  11. The other civilizations learn maths from veda is wrong. Veda people might have got their knowledge from other civilization people (Egyptian & Babylonian). The linguistic research or any other language research doesn’t support that the harappan language has similarity with Sanskrit, the language in which the Vedas are written. And earlier the harappan language was tried to grouped with Sanskrit. But now the research says noway we can group it with Sanskrit.

    And Sanskrit also now assumed to be a derived language of “Dravidian & European”. Then suggesting an age of Sanskrit before Greek and Latin is incorrect. If the Sanskrit is younger how can the Vedas written in Sanskrit will be older.

    In any civilization sacrifices is almost common. It cannot be said that they got the source from Vedas.

    • Manoj Pashte

      Rupert you have to get your facts right. It is not only me but the experts also who have now started looking into the proofs that maths was learnt from the vedic people. In my earlier post I had stated about the excavation of the city of Dwarka. You have in one of your earlier posts stated that you have read the scriptures of India. You have not read the scriptures because if you had read you would not have been confused about the city of Dwarka being a city mentioned in the Rig Veda. The carbon dating (I hope you believe in science) of the artefacts unearthed goes beyound 8000 B.C. The city of Dwarka is the city of Lord Krishna described in the Mahabharata. Now if the city of Dwarka can be dated to 8000 B.C. it is an admitted position that the rig veda was prior to the Mahabharata. It is now for you to work on that.

      There is no documentary or any other proof to show that mathematics has been learnt by the people of vedic era from the Egyptians or the Babylonians. It is fact the other way round. There is plethora of work done by mathematicians all over the world which studies point to only one way that mathamatics has traveled from the Vedic people to the other civilisations.

      It is regretful that people blieve in the assumptions drawn by people who had no knowledge about interpreting the Sanskrit language. Assumption that the Sanskrit language is derived from the Dravidian and European language is totally misleading. Latin and Greek languages are the basis for the European languages. When Sanskrit was the language of the vedic people there was no dravidian language. Admittedly Sanskrit was and is prior to Greek and Latin.

      As is the caseof the Aryan race so is the case of the Dravidian race. Both are non existent. Genetic science has proved that all the people of the sub continent are indeginous people there is no outside trait in these people. As we understand it today the so called Aryans and the so called Dravidians are of the same race as that of the Vedic people.

      The writing of the Harrapa is not yet deciphered and hence no one talk about it being similar or not with Sanskrit.

      Yes sacrifices are common in all civilisations. Rupert I was not talking about sacrifices. I was talking about building scrificial altars and for that one requires the knowledge of not only mathematics but also of geometry which the vedic people had and that(knowledge) is what is written in the Sulbha Sutras.

      So Rupert one just has to keep a open mind for knowledge to flow in.

      • Dota

        “There is no documentary or any other proof to show that mathematics has been learnt by the people of vedic era from the Egyptians or the Babylonians. It is fact the other way round. There is plethora of work done by mathematicians all over the world which studies point to only one way that mathamatics has traveled from the Vedic people to the other civilisations. ”

        Gotta love classical Hindutva propaganda, ie India is the mother of human civilization. period. Well Manoj, I take it that pre Islam Arabs were also Hindus perhaps?

        • Manoj Pashte

          preislamic arabs were pagan worshipers. beleiving in many gods. if you read the arabian tales in the right prospective
          you would come to know the religious beliefs of the pre islamic arab world. Dota do not argue for the sake of arguments. the pre islamic arabs believed in the existence of one Great Deity, they belived that the All-Powerful Lord delegated His powers to some of His sacred personalities and objects – both animate and inanimate – who serve as the media through which the worshipper could come in contact with Him and thus earn His pleasure. It was under this belief that they worshipped the idols of saintly persons, heavenly bodies and stones which were sometimes regarded not as divinities, but as the incarnations of Divine Being.

          What I have written about mathematics is not about Hindutva propaganda. Dota read before calling the truth Hndutva propaganda.

          Well Dota now you can answer your own question

        • Xera

          Yes but those pre-islamic Arabs did not get their deities from the Hindus

        • Dota


          You are the one that’s flogging a dead horse. The language and culture of the Aryans was radically different from those of the Harrapans. Cultures don’t take a 180 degree turn just like that. Even Christianity did not completely change the various European cultures. Their symbolism, art, poetry and music retained their pagan roots. Islam similarly incorporated many of the Pre-Islamic Arab values and customs. You expect any sane person to believe that a well planned urban, egalitarian and mercantile culture would suddenly transform into a caste-ridden rural society with a radically different language without any outside influence? Dream on Manoj bhai. The horse itself is not native to the subcontinent but was introduced to it from the central Asian steppes. Certain plants and vegetation mentioned in the Vedas are still found on the Pakistan-Afghanistan border. A certain herbal drink mentioned in the Vedas is still served in chai ki dukans in Pakistan’s frontier province even today. Get your facts from sources other than Hindutva retards like Sudhir Birodhkar.

        • Jaipal


          Maanoj is right, actually. Mathematicians like Abraham Seidenberg have done the
          research and pointed out that the mathematical formulas for altar constructions
          in the shape of Pyramids is mentioned and described in the work known as the
          Sulba Sutras.

          How this Hindu mathematical knowledge could have reached the Middle-East upto
          Egypt, is likely due to the establishment of the Indic kingdoms like the Mittanni
          dynasty, which is known to have had trading connections with Egypt.
          There was also intermarriage among the royal families of Mittanni and the Pharoahs.
          All this is proven in inscriptions and documents from that era!

      • Xera

        lol Accept the fact that your country and your backwards culture sucks ass and hasn’t made anything of noteworthy at this present time. Your country is worthless on a global scale and is shit, unless you guys admit all of the above, you guys will never become a modern society and get out of the medieval dark ages phase, which for all intents and purposes India is at the moment, admit that. Ancient Egypt, Greek, Romans & Persian stole everything from India? HA HA HA HA don’t make me laugh, is that what you guys lie to yourself to ignore all the potholes, scummy pathetic people and the stench of cow dung everyday?

        • Manoj Pashte

          Xera I have already told you that you talk besides the point. By the language being used by you it is best not to know your culture it must surely be worth not mentioning. Be that as it may we Indians are happy with our culture. I suppose you are not in touch with todays reality. So be it be happy for as the saying goes there is happinees in being ignorant.

        • Manoj Pashte

          Xera you have a lot of reading to do so keep on reading

        • Manoj Pashte

          dota you have yet to understand about the length and breath of the Vedic civilisation. In my earlier post I had stated that the Vedic civilisation was spread over thousands of miles. The geographical boundaries of today are of use in considering the extent of the Vedic civilisation. first of all get yourself acquainted with the length and breath of the Vedic Civilisation.

          if you are bent upon not to eccept the facts stated you will always think that one is flogging a dead horse. I have also stated that the scrificial altars are found in the IVC those altars are built as per the guidelines given in the sulbha Sutras
          IVC is not just confined to only two towns ( Mohenjadaro and Harappa). Infact sites like Kalibangan, Lothal, Dholavira, Rakigarh, Surkotoda more or less share similar features to that of Mohenjadaro and Harappa. Any archeological material that is excavated and similar should be considered part of IVC.

          “Within the fortified citadel complex, the southern half contained many (five or six) raised platforms of mud bricks, mutually separated by corridors. Stairs were attached to these platforms. Vandalism of these platforms by brick robbers makes it difficult to reconstruct the original shape of structures above them but unmistakable remnants of rectangular or oval kuṇḍas (Kundas) or fire-pits of burnt bricks for Vedi (altar)s have been found, with a yūpa or sacrificial post (cylindrical or with rectangular cross-section, sometimes bricks were laid upon each other to construct such a post) in the middle of each kuṇḍa and sacrificial terracotta cakes (piṇḍa) in all these fire-pits. Houses in the lower town also contain similar altars. Burnt charcoals have been found in these fire-pits. The structure of these fire-altars is reminiscent of (Vedic) fire-altars, but the analogy may be coincidental, and these altars are perhaps intended for some specific (perhaps religious) purpose by the community as a whole. In some fire-altars remnants of animals have been found, which suggest a possibility of animal-sacrifice. [19].

          The official website of ASI reports : “Besides the above two principle [sic] parts of the metropolis there was also a third one-a moderate structure situated upwards of 😯 m e. of the lower town containing four to five fire altars. This lonely structure may perhaps have been used for ritual purposes [20].” Thus, fire-altars have been found in three groups: public altars in the citadel, household altars in lower town, and public altars in a third separate group.”

          How are yougoin to explain the horses depicted in caves near Karikkiyur, about 40 km from Kothagiri in the Nilgiris. The rock paintings depict a battle scene with men aiming at each other with bows and arrows, men on horseback engaged in battle.

          Dota please do not read only the EUROCENTRIC VIEW be open and understand that by rediculing you are not proving your point. For your information I have not read or received my facts from Sudhir Bhirodkar or from any hindutvavadi. I am stating some plain historical facts. If it cannot be denied then the people believing the theory are called Hindutvavadis. A good way to give a go by to the historical facts which cannot be denied.

        • Dota

          And I never said that the Aryans ignored the Harrapans altogether. Some of the IVC was clearly incorporated into the VC. Archeological evidence and a lack of fossils has also proved that horses were not known to the IVC. Several geneticists, including the renowned Luigi Luca Cavalli-Sforza have stated over and over that upper caste Indians cluster fairly close to Europeans, Brahmins being the closest. It doesn’t mean that these people are white, no, but they are clearly Caucasoid whose origins lie outside the subcontinent. Are you Hindutvadis so insecure and fascist in nature, that you must compulsively indigenize a foreign people so as to maintain your shallow nationalistic hoax of India being the mother of all civilizations? Get over yourselves.

        • Xera

          On an unrelated note, Dota are the Bengali’s one of those Aryan descended races? I have seen them and they look completely different from other Indians

        • Dota


          Yes they are. Bengali brahmins in particular look very Caucasoid.

        • Xera

          There are people saying that’s its only a few of them and the rest are Dravidians. Yet a sizable number of them look “different”, so I think there are some major strains.

    • Vijay Kumar Mishra

      Very nice observations…Rupert…Great…What a logic…Sanskrit is derived from Dravidian and European…is it so…? Do one thing First try to learn Sanskrit before saying anything stupidly…By the way I came to know from your Name…Secondly one thing an idiot like you should always know…What is Sanskrit language?

      The so called PIE language is not exists if yes its exist then show me a proof…
      Secondly I don’t know about the date of Rigveda and for me it’s not required because if you are giving any dates of Rigveda that dates always predated to Avesta language and for your kind information it’s the oldest Persian language. So if Persian language can predate Rigveda then How Indian migrate from there…Yes they might migrated from India…

      And Namaste Robert!!! Why You want to support AIT theory? Hmmmm…

      Q1: How many stupid people outside India chants the mantra like Us?
      Ans: When most of the you are behaving like animals at least then we are having a perfect society and Vedas…

      You are the people who believes earth is flat and when Britishers believes that the earth is 100 million old lol…We know we knew that the earth was 4.7 billion old…
      I can give you thousands of example…But I don’t wanna waste my time…Binary number system which is used in computer (even in modern days), Ink and so many thing we had given…You are saying these type of Smartness belongs from people who don’t know anything behaving stupidly…Noooooooo….We are not a shit like you who don’t know how to talk..?

      And if you want to prove AIT theory give a proof…Try to say please the date Avesta should predate Rigveda Language and all…Law of gravity – Newton…Really then Search about the name who invented this Law…And tell me if they agreed to change name of Newton…Then won’t change…

      And that’s why this theory also propagated by Britishers who knows How to lie…
      Understand I am giving you simple example bout why Britishers will make this theory…
      And search about history of America during those days!!!! You will come to know…Or simply watch the movie “Great Debacle” How they were burning Natives American in the name of white race…That simply shows there IQ level in the year of 1900…Same thing they want to do in India so that they can rule us but unfortunately we are more smart then them…Bad luck for them…

      And you know majority of Aryas were the Freedom Fighters…And for you please note…
      In Vedas, There is a word Arya which means Noble, Honourable. Aryan means according to us who is son of Arya…So we don’t mind if anyone wants to be Aryan…Because we are Arya…Because there is nothing bad to be Arya…Please note: Even I know there are also good people in the world who wants to be Arya( Noble, Honourable )…But there are few wants to be Aryan so we don’t mind to make them correct…After all…Aryan are the sons of us…As per Rigveda…

      Forget about the Dates of Veda…But at least As per Vedas we can make relationship…And we don’t mind…Slumdog???? I think you don’t know about Indians…
      Learn about them…

  12. Manoj Pashte

    Dota your replies are not in accordace with the historical, archeological, linguistic and scientific findings. You are so obsessed in supporting the Eurocentric viewabout the dating of the Rig Veda that you tend to ignore the evidences of the earlier date of the Rig Veda. I have already stated that I have given only the historical facts.

    Your Statement:- ” Are you Hindutvadis so insecure and fascist in nature, that you must compulsively indigenize a foreign people so as to maintain your shallow nationalistic hoax of India being the mother of all civilizations? Get over yourselves.” is totally incorrect. The followers of sanatan dharma were, are and never will be insecure and fascist. A person just by writing the truth cannot be termed as insecure or fascist only because that person does not believe in what you believe. No foreign people are indianized compulsively, the genitic proofs are otherwise. The people of India are indeginous. We the people of India do want to have any opinion from others about our nationalism.

    You are so bent upon to prove that the rig veda is dated not earlier than 1300 B.C. without any proofs historical or otherwise go to show that you do not care for the scientific evidence of any sort. Be that as it may the vedic civilisation is the oldest and there are are proofs scientific, archeological, and documentary which you are not able to contradict and hence you tend to hide behind the word hindutvavadi. Get yourself out of this inferiority complex and look at the proofs you may find your answer.

  13. Good article. We had discussion about vedas in blogs written in our regional language (telugu). When I said that vedas are just 3000 years old, Hindutva fanatics didn’t agree with me. They argued in the style of “rabbit with three legs” theory.

    • atheistseparatist

      Talking to nuts like jaipal reminds of a quote from house md :-
      ‘Rational arguments don’t usually work on religious people. Otherwise there would be no religious people.’

  14. Pingback: Veda kosovo | Kelstonmarketi

  15. Madhusudan

    Looking @ the responses form Robert (some of his response “Bla bla bla bla Sarasvati Bla bla bla Vedas Bla bla bla 1900 BC Bla bla bla river dried up Bla bla bla”. , “Yada yada Yada” etc) ..I belive that he is immature and the article in this blog is just heard cock and bull story. Robert I would like you to disprove Manoj Scientifically with facts.. I would like you to do more research from non-hindutva side and come up with explanations to Manoj’s argument. Looking forward to your next article on this.

  16. R.B.Pandey

    blog started as if it was going to be mocking of hindus,aryans. vedas india ,and probably everything connected to this land or subcotinent by an anti hindu mentality ,but thanks to Sri Manoj Pashte who made the blog interesting and worthreading by giving realistic facts and arguiments to Mr.Lindsey though these are not supporting his objective.mr.

  17. iv noticed you are not ready to have a reasonable discussion to the comments posted by Indians on this “article” you “intelligently” seemed to have written. there are always two sides of a story so why not listen and argue than jus replying “yada yada and all that.

  18. Arun

    Robert, if there ever was an example of a racist twit, its you. The terms you use for indians – “elephant jockey” etc are pretty reflective of what you are. I mean, i work with Americans everyday, but the amount of insular bigotry in you and your bum chums on this blog pretty much makes me understand why my american friends are so contemptuous of what they refer to as trailer trash. Keep talking of aryans etc – point is you will never even know what the term means and nor will you ever be able to afford the kind of knowledge afforded by proper education and travel. Stay within the confines of the ‘net, populated by inbred retards like you, and rejoice.

  19. Arun

    Delusional cr@p right here:

    “Personally, I have been described as “otherworldly,”, “beyond highbrow,” “one of those totally out to lunch genius types,” and “off in my own world.” I have a very high IQ, and I’m told that a lot of high-IQ folks are like this. There doesn’t seem to be much I can do about it, but it does cause me problems. Generally, topics are focused through a progressive yet heterodox lens. Discusses race a lot – if it bugs you, don’t read. I have been called a liberal race realist. Liberal race realism has been described as “a dash of race realism, positive white racial identity, the leftist view of American history, anti-racism, and a base of liberalism.”I see myself as a pan-humanist universalist and a White ethnocentric anti-racist race realist, who strongly dislikes the PC, Cultural Marxist, Identity Politics, Western New Left.”

    Basically an undereducated loser, insecure about his racial identity and hence running around trying to find some romantic ideal to link his heritage to. Positive white racial identity who dislikes PC- LOL, talk about putting lipstick on a pig, pretty much saying you are a white racist who wants to prove himself superior to others. Go to stormfront, they have no shortage of crazies like you.

    And self id’ing yourself as a genius, another mega LOL. Do you even realize how stupid and pretentious you sound? You have a pathetic educational background with no technology or business skills, but a lowbrow skillset pretty much acquired by losers who take part time college. Nobody worth anything would touch you with a forklift…

    No wonder the internet is all you have surrounded by other white whackjobs to egg you on.

  20. Pepperoncini

    Standard Hindutvavadi response:
    1) Itz a British Conspiracy

    2) Whine about Eurocentricism when non Indian academics refuse to accept Hindutva lies.When Indian academics don’t agree with the Hindutva line, whine that they are Marxists.

    3) Regurgitate the distortions and lies peddled by Hindutvavadis like: Rajaram,Elst,Frawley,Kaznas, Kalyanayram, BB Lal etc… None of these hacks have published their OIT spiel in peer reviewed Indology journals (following a peer review process) .

    Rig Veda describes a semi nomadic pastoral society of warlike tribes. Urban life / cities, mercantilism, sea faring, intensive year round agriculture, hydraulic engineerin, major public works, a script, large scale manufacturing …..are all alien to the Rig Veda. So the chronicles of the Aryans themselves disprove the lies peddled by Hindutvavadis.

    Hindutva agenda is to rip off the IVC and much of the Sub Con culture and claim it as Aryan. No different to Nazis who saw Aryans everywhere, civilizing the world or White Supremacists who claim Ancient Egypt, Meso American Civ and Sumer as White creations. Just pathetic attempt to steal another culture’s accomplishments and claim it as their own.

  21. RajToo

    why are you so shit-scared of the truth about the antiquity of the Indic Civilization coming out? Why do you pee in you pants, when you read the mountain of evidence in its favor? 😆

  22. Billa

    reading all these “Aryan” posts here, this is exactly the shit you call blog is just the right place for “slumdogs” to come visit :)!
    These little white Nazis are still trying to steal “Aryan” pride from us Indians. Well Robbie boy, you ain’t gonna get it! Capisch!
    Robbie, you Nazi jerk, are you scared, we got you by your little smelly balls? 😆

    • Scared of you Indians and your failed society? Nah. Now fuck off back to Bharat my friend. And don’t you need to take a shit on your front porch right now? Nature is calling!

  23. Sharan Kumar

    To Robert, if we are a failed society, please know that india is 3rd in GDP with respect to PPP. Is it a failed state? The more you use coercive language, the more it makes you intolerant and illogical. I guess they didn’t teach this at school. But anyway, you see there is a famous adage, and it reads like this: Truth will triumph. You and I may not be there. It may take another 1000 years. But, the truth will be out some day.

    It takes brains and a lot of cultural baggage to create and sustain a religion. India has given great thinkers like Sankara, Buddha and many more and home to many more religions. You guys have one religion and that too is extinct. Your God who civilized you guys is Asian, ok West Asian. Now tell me, how many religions came out of Europe? Your Plato, Aristotle are puerile in their arguments when compared to Nagarjuna, Dharmakirti and Dignaga. Now, i don’t say that I’m superior to you. That is childishness. I say that there has been a continuum of ideas and that there is no point talking about India giving or getting. It has always been both ways. We have the MATURITY to accept this. Since, the west has not seen much spiritualism, such barbaric arrogance is expected. Grow up guys. Cheers.

    • Yes, India is a failed state.

      • Seriously?

        Wonderful. Then I guess there’s no point in you bashing it.

        • Well, there is hope even for failed states. They can always turn it around. But I don’t think India can. The problem with India is its people and its culture. They want to live in a failed state. They want to live in a shithole. They like it that way. Anyway, they created the shithole failed state all by themselves. The shithole failed nature of the society reflects upon the people who created it. In a way, I don’t care so much, except that they are people, and I wish the best for all people.

          But I am starting to think these Indians are most of the backwards, fucked up, regressive, barbaric and uncivilized people around. I am really worried about bringing more of these reactionaries (and that is what they are) into my country. I don’t think they belong here unless, like the Indian commenters on this site, they are willing to assimilate to the West.

          We already have way too many reactionaries in this country. They are called Republicans. But even Republicans haven’t created as failed a shithole as India, though that’s obviously their dream. I don’t want them in my country, I think they are some of the worst immigrants to come to my country period, and I am really afraid of the effect they are going to have here.

          And I do think they are hopeless. If people want to change, they can change, but these people are so sick that they really don’t want to change. It’s infuriating, but what can you do?

          I can live with Muslims way better than I can live with these backwards subcontinentals. We have a lot of Indians around me and they are way cooler than the Indians around me. In fact, the coolest subcontinentals of all around here are the MUSLIMS. Now what kind of sense does that make? You know your society sucks balls in Hell when your MUSLIMS are the most civilized and decent among you. Good God.

        • Seriously?

          Look, there’s no need to use words like “shit” or “shithole” to characterize 1.2 billion people. Whatever your aim is, nothing will be accomplished by doing so. If it’s a terrible place and Indians are terrible people as you say, provide the evidence and let it speak for itself. Unfortunately, evidence is the one thing I don’t see here–and that goes for both sides.

          But It is funny that you simultaneously bash Indians and Republicans, yet Indians are essentially liberal across the board.
          I’m calling you out on it: There is literally no measure you can think of that would justify calling Indian Americans bad immigrants. So far, it only indicates that you don’t actually know any and have instead decided to rely on preconceptions. For all this talk about Indians being bad people and bad immigrants, I haven’t seen you give one legitimate reason in either blog post I’ve read of yours, or the countless comments you’ve made. You seem to just be repeating that India is bad over and over again.

        • We have gone over endlessly why Indians suck on this blog. They don’t care one bit about their fellow man, they are callous, cruel and insensitive, and they are among the greediest and coldest people I have ever met. They put the stereotypical Jew to shame. It’s everything for me and mine and fuck everyone else, and I do mean fuck everyone else.

          Indians have no empathy for their fellow man and no sense of the common good. That’s utterly absent from this culture. That’s as backwards regressive as any society on Earth. as a progressive person, 1.2 million people who don’t give a flying fuck about their fellow man and have no sense of the common good is a disaster. And I am really worried about bringing people with this mindset into my country.

          I am going to do a post soon on why Indian immigrants suck. I am even starting to think that subcon Christians and Sikhs suck. I have met enough of them to know.

        • Well, I am glad that they are voting Democrat. You’d never know it from talking to them. I still say I don’t like them, and I have to deal with them all the time around here. Hell, the Mexicans are cooler than the Indians around here. Anytime the Mexicans are better than you are, you’re in sorry shape.

        • Seriously?

          Gee, you hate the two most statistically liberal groups of people in America –Jews and Indians–for not being progressive enough and not caring about their fellow man. Apparently the only crime they’ve committed is also being the two wealthiest groups in America. Sounds pretty irrational so far.

        • Seriously?

          Damn, is there any non-white group you don’t hate? However, it seems you hate the majority of whites as well. So much for caring about your fellow man.

        • Jews are good and liberal but on a personal level that can be greedy and callous as fuck all.

          Indians come from a shit culture where no one cares about their fellow man. They dropped all of that when they came here? Forget it.

          The Indians around here, when it comes down to it, are just rude and unfriendly. They’re the rudest and unfriendliest group around these parts. Like the stereotype of the pushy, rude, asshole Jew.

          I don’t hate Jews either.

          I really don’t want to carry on this debate with you. It’s not going anywhere.

        • BTW, you’re violating the comments rules.

          #1 violation is hostile tone. I ban on that.

          #2 violation is calling me racist. You’re accusing me of hating all sorts of folks that I don’t hate at all. You can’t do that on here. I ban on that.

        • Seriously?

          Sorry, I agree, that was a leap on my part.

        • Dota

          Too be perfectly fair Robert, I don’t hold a very high view of Indian Muslims either. Same worldview, same morals, same culture, same practices. I’m glad you’ve met a handful of cool ones in your area, but having grown up around them I can confidently say that they are just as tribal as their Hindu neighbors. This is why I ultimately think that Khalistan will fail just as Pakistan did. The only reason Hinduized Bangladesh is doing much better is because it is an ethnically homogenous state.

  24. Bay Area Guy

    As minorities in Western countries, both Jews and Indians have to put on a facade of being liberal and tolerant, for important strategic purposes.

    However, observe the way they behave when they’re the majority (whether it’s Jews in Israel or desis in India), and their true nature is revealed.

    • Seriously?

      So you’re saying we’re genetically evil? lol My mother has voted for Congress (the center-left party in India) her entire life despite coming from a powerful Brahman family; all of her family members did/do, even though doing so has meant losing all their power. Both of us are very liberal, and I’ve been a socialist since High School. People can both want education for themselves and care about other people. Trust me, it’s not a facade.

      • Congress hasn’t done crap for India. I’ve known some Indians in India. They all voted for Congress and were more or less Hindutvas in the way that they talked and viewed the world. The Hindutva Indian nationalist view is basically the default view for all Indian Hindus. Congress has been in power forever, and India is just as fucked as it’s ever been.

        I’ve had it with India. I’m with the Maoists.

        I see you’re family is Brahmin. I thought so. You all talk the same. Shining India LOL.

        • Seriously?

          Congress, both in terms of the progress they can achieve/have achieved and their views, is basically the same as the Democratic party.

          And not entirely, no. My father was not a Brahman; he was Vaishya.

        • Pepperoncini

          This is the same party that enables a family dictatorship; Nehru –> Indira Ghandi–> Rajiv—>Sonia. In any Western democrasy this would be called nepotism.
          Indira Ghandi also institued a Eugenics program that forcibly sterilised 7 million Indians, virtually all lower caste poor people and tribals.
          Congress gives a facade of tolerance and inclusion, but it is all fake. Congress – BJP relationship is a bit like the good cop – bad cop routine.

      • Bay Area Guy

        So you’re saying we’re genetically evil?

        LOL yourself. I never said that. That’s a strawman argument if there ever was one.

        I’m sure your family is absolutely wonderful, but my point remains. Compare the way Hindutvas act in India, where they’re the majority (where they use the language of Hindu dominance/supremacy), compared to how they act in the U.S, where they’re the minority (where they use the language of pluralism, multiculturalism, anti-colonialism, etc).

        Dota once provided a link to an article about the whole Hindutva textbook controversy in California.

        Western Jews are very much the same. They talk a big game about tolerance, diversity, and multiculturalism in Western countries, but unapologetically support Israel’s Jewish ethnocracy (even though they occasionally give lip service to the idea that certain forms of anti-Jewish discrimination are wrong), and Israeli Jews, who are the majority in their society, are unapologetic Jewish supremacists.

        Is it because they’re genetically predisposed to be evil? Of course not. It’s a matter of strategy and self-interest. When you’re the minority in liberal Western countries, it pays to play the equality, multiculturalism, tolerance, and pluralism card. You’re not powerful enough to fight toe to toe with the white majority, so you try to disarm them with pluralistic liberal rhetoric.

        However, when you’re the majority, you tend to have no problem with unapologetically asserting your dominance, as Jews in Israel and Hindu desis in India do, with white Western countries being the exception to this rule in many ways.

        • Pepperoncini

          @ Bay Area Guy
          Thumbs Up

        • Seriously?

          Not that it would help my point all (it’s probably going to hurt it), but twice-born castes are definitely a minority in India unlike Jews in Israel.

          Anyways, though, it seems to me almost a contradiction to presuppose that certain people are self-interested, even when they’re ostensibly going against their own interests, and also suggesting that they shouldn’t be. You’re separating yourself from those groups for whatever reason, forgetting them conscious beings, and making pretty blanket statements without clear evidence in support of those statements.

          Per Wikipedia:
          “Helmreich describes Jews as “a uniquely swayable bloc” as a result of Republican stances on Israel.[24][99][102] A paper by Dr. Eric Uslaner of the University of Maryland disagrees, at least with regard to the 2004 election: “Only 15% of Jews said that Israel was a key voting issue. Among those voters, 55% voted for Kerry (compared to 83% of Jewish voters not concerned with Israel).” The paper goes on point out that negative views of Evangelical Christians had a distinctly negative impact for Republicans among Jewish voters, while Orthodox Jews, traditionally more conservative in outlook as to social issues, favored the Republican Party.[103] A New York Times article suggests that the Jewish movement to the Republican party is focused heavily on faith-based issues, similar to the Catholic vote, which is credited for helping President Bush taking Florida in 2004.[104] However, Natan Guttman, The Forward’s Washington bureau chief, dismisses this notion, writing in Moment that while “[i]t is true that Republicans are making small and steady strides into the Jewish community…a look at the past three decades of exit polls, which are more reliable than pre-election polls, and the numbers are clear: Jews vote overwhelmingly Democratic,”[105] an assertion confirmed by the most recent presidential election results.”

          I think it’s better to just understand that each group of people can be separated into those who are always self-interested and those who are trying to look out for other people. I’m assuming you’d classify yourself as the latter, even though many people have negative opinions of whites as well. It almost seems as if liberal Jews and upper-caste Indians can’t do anything to sway certain opinions about them, even though the comprise the majority of their respective groups.

        • Bay Area Guy

          @ Seriously

          Perhaps I took too much of Machiavelli’s “The Prince” or Saul Alinsky’s “Rules for Radicals” to heart when I them, but I happen to have a very negative view of human nature.

          Unless you’re good friends with someone, or are their own flesh and blood, you’re very rarely going to go out of your way to help someone purely out of altruism.

          People, especially those in politics, act out of self-interest, and anyone who denies it is a damn fool.

          I would advise reading the autobiography of Malcolm X, go near the end of the book, and read what he has to say about the reasons why the Jewish leadership supported the black civil rights movement. They certainly didn’t do it out of love for black people.

          And no, I don’t pretend to be one of those white liberals who feigns empathy for the black and Hispanic masses.

          I am very much a self-interested person. I’m at least honest about that. I wish others would display similar honesty.

        • Dota


          “Perhaps I took too much of Machiavelli’s “The Prince” or Saul Alinsky’s “Rules for Radicals” to heart when I them, but I happen to have a very negative view of human nature. ”

          Then perhaps you need to take Shakespeare to heart too:

          What a piece of work is a man, How noble in
          Reason, how infinite in faculties, in form and moving
          how express and admirable, In action how like an Angel!
          in apprehension how like a god, the beauty of the
          world, the paragon of animals.

        • Dota

          BAGs post sums it up nicely.

          Seriously? You have made some pretty self serving and dishonest claims yourself. You know as well as i do that the President’s position in India means nothing. The President is just a figurehead. The real power lies with the prime minister, and we’ve yet to see dalits or Muslims/Christians make it there.

        • Bay Area Guy

          @ Dota

          Well said. That makes Seriously’s lame arguments even worse.

        • Seriously?

          lol “lame arguments”
          I don’t know what to say. This could have taken about 30 seconds to look up on Google: It’s true that in practice the Prime Minister does display more power, but the de jure power rests with the President, who appoints the Prime Minister. Whether or not a dalit is selected is completely up to the President. So yes, a dalit was elected to the highest office the populace could elect him to.

    • Pepperoncini

      Thats a good point. I’d say it is the same for Muslims and East Asians. In the US, they have to act nice outwardly, because American culture does not like open blatant bigotry. Usually these non Euro minorities are passive aggresive and practice what I call ‘smart or sly racism’ .

      • Pepperoncini

        Above post was in response to Bay Area Guy’s post

      • Seriously?

        Or you’re just projecting preconceived notions onto them. That’s a pretty huge logical leap to make.

        • Pepperoncini

          It’s called observation. Not true for all as people are still individuals to a degree but the cultural groups they belong to will tend to exhibit certain sympathies and biases.

  25. Bay Area Guy

    On another note, this is also why I, as a white person, am very wary of any non-white minority group in Western countries that plays the equality and tolerance card. It’s because I know damn well that if they were to become the majority and wield the power, they would unapologetically favor themselves, and to hell with “equality.”

    But as long as they can continue to dupe white liberal useful idiots, they’ll continue to do it.

  26. Pepperoncini

    quoting Bay
    “Dota once provided a link to an article about the whole Hindutva textbook controversy in California.”

    Could you provide the link again please. I am somewhat familiar with the subject, having read the comments by Western Indologists who battled the Hindutvadis.
    As far as I know, the general gist of the textbook controversy revolves around Indian Americans and their White fellow travellers like Frawley whitewashing the horrors of caste, downplaying the Aryan-Dravidian issue, downplaying the fact that IVC was not Aryan .

    • Dota


      The one positive thing I’ll gladly admit about India is that it does have a relatively free media that represents a diverse range of views. Interestingly enough, this is also true for Pakistan despite the authoritarianism.

      • Pepperoncini

        I am currently googling the subject and ran across the below website which I only link to as it appears academically oriented. It is an electronic journal, and has an article on the Cali Textbook Controversy. It has some choice quotes where the writer does not shy away from blunty stating the obvious. Too often Western academics take a passive and polite attitude towards Hindutva revisionist attempts, instead of calling a duck a duck.


        Partial quote from the 11th paragraph
        “Combined, these changes equate the history of ancient India with the history of Hinduism, and reduce a diverse set of religious practices and beliefs to those associated with the patriarchal, Brahmanical perspective while marginalizing the vital contributions of religious minorities, women, Adivasis (tribals) and Dalits to Indian history. ”

        Last pararaphg mentions the ‘history’ peddled by Hindu Educational Foundation, one of the chief reviosionist American Hindu orgs involved in the textbook case.

        “This site also brags that ancient India has the distinction of being the only destination in the world for UFOs, while the Aryans made it to the moon. Scientificminded readers can be assured that “

  27. Jaipal

    Dota said: Manoj

    “You are the one that’s flogging a dead horse. The language and culture of the Aryans was radically different from those of the Harrapans. Cultures don’t take a 180 degree turn just like that. Even Christianity did not completely change the various European cultures. Their symbolism, art, poetry and music retained their pagan roots. Islam similarly incorporated many of the Pre-Islamic Arab values and customs. You expect any sane person to believe that a well planned urban, egalitarian and mercantile culture would suddenly transform into a caste-ridden rural society with a radically different language without any outside influence? Dream on Manoj bhai. The horse itself is not native to the subcontinent but was introduced to it from the central Asian steppes. Certain plants and vegetation mentioned in the Vedas are still found on the Pakistan-Afghanistan border. A certain herbal drink mentioned in the Vedas is still served in chai ki dukans in Pakistan’s frontier province even today. Get your facts from sources other than Hindutva retards like Sudhir Birodhkar.” (Quote)


    Your entire argument is easily refutable. The language of the Harappans is not
    known for sure because their script has never been satisfactorily deciphered,
    so the actual linguistic identity is not known! So, you cannot say with certainty
    that Harappans were non-IE speakers. Therefore, your claim is just an assumption
    without any proof! Since the Harappan civilization is a NORTHERN civilization
    just as the Vedic Civilization was, there is nothing incompatible with the possibility
    that Harappans may have a connection with Vedic Culture!

    As far as the culture of the Indo-Aryans goes, the Rig-Veda is actually the product of a
    King-Sage culture, namely Rishi-Raja culture!! The Rig-Veda was composed by an Indian
    dynasty known as the Bharata Dynasty. You can consult Michael Witzel on this by the
    way. The Rig-Veda knows sea-faring and trading as well as agriculture because there
    are many descriptions of the ocean and prayers are made for a safe crossing of
    the ocean for trading purposes as well as prayers for rain!! so, you are wrong
    about Rig-Veda being composed by a nomadic people!!

    As for the horse, this argument is somewhat flawed. While the horse may not be native
    to the subcontinent, it doesn’t undermine the possibility that horses could be imported
    by the ruling Indian clans at the time without the necessity of introducing a whole new
    people. Absence of physical evidence of horse remains does not mean necessarily
    evidence of absence of the horse. It could be that the horse remains weren’t preserved
    and didn’t survive in the archeological record!

  28. benne

    You say at the beginning of your rant:
    “Generally, the Rig Vedas are said to begin around 3900 YBP.

    Then you say:
    “As Hindu culture is ahistoric in terms of dates and events, no one knows when these events took place.”

    Only one statement can be correct.

    Not sure why you are so keen to take on “Hindutva crazies” – you could ignore them, but you seem concerned enough about what Hindutva crazies say to actually write a rant about their beliefs.

    Actually some of the things that “hindutva crazies” say might possibly be true and that is getting a whole lot of “scholarly” knickers in a right royal twist. That would, in my view, be a good reason for you to have your rant.


  29. AIT-Nazis got no history!

    So does that mean that all that what AIT-Nazis like Witzel and you say is correct? Gimme a break!

    You Nazis have a serious problem of identity and history!


    • Ok slumdog, you’re banned. Amazing, in India, even the vast majority of the intellectuals are retarded!

      Yes, Witzel and I are correct. And you retarded Hindu dogs are all wrong.

      • Xera

        Robert, I’ve always wanted to ask you this but do you think in your honest opinion that Euro’s and Caucasians in general are the “best looking and most aesthetic” human race compared to others?

        • I really do not want to get into that line of thinking. Beauty is in the eye of the beholder. I can’t stand the whole line of thinking that any race is better looking than any other race. Human races have clearly been selecting for beauty for a long time now. Although I must admit that it is very hard for me to find Aborigines beautiful!

  30. Unfortunately, the vocal minority is taken to be the voice of the hindu community. There is a vocal minority of hindutva crazies (I won’t call them hindus) who believe in indigenous origin of vedic language and give hoary dates to these. In the fantasy world of hindutva’s theories, it doesn’t matter if they date rigveda to 5000bc/10,000bc or even 80,000bc.

    I’ve never heard Hindu priests or anyone with a good knowledge of vedic language and material culture give such hoary dates.

    So, none of the statements of “hindutva crazies” can be taken to be those of hindu community as such.

  31. Yasdnil Is-A Tnuc

    Oh boy! Yet another moonbat shit-crazy numbnut who has no clue about India or Sanskrit but has opinions. As science and genetics catch up , the world arounf AIT-Nazis keep getting smaller and smaller.

    Maybe you should find out why Jesus is blonde-haired-blue-eyed and not the typical middle eastern looks for someone from Palestine. Start there boy , after sifting through the paidos in the church.

    India and Sanskrit is a little too much for your thick skull.

  32. Krishna

    The very reason for educated hindus proving the aryan invasion theory wrong is to reinstate the truth about indian history distorted by european invaders trying to have spiritual supremacy over indians. This is what europeans did within europe as well outside. whenever they attacked any country. Be it the history our science, british rulers on india have distorted everything very systematically so that could continue to rule spiritually enslaved try

  33. Chandru

    Hey Western Crony,
    Read the aticle @ http://www.cycleoftime.com/articles_view.php?codArtigo=54 before you argue further

  34. priyanka

    lolzz why this people are so much jealous of India..ohh yeah got it they dont have such a great humanity thoughts like SANATAN DHARMA teaches.. they dont have such a powerful mean of relaxation called MEDITATION and also they don’t have such a great language SANSKRIT which is most perfectly suitable for today’s technology and many more things…gosh lots of jealous people on this earth..

    • You’re right nig.

      I am so jealous of you curryniggas.

      You get to shit right in the street! I have to shit in a bathroom, in a toilet of all abominations! Humiliating!

      Dude, do you have any idea how cool it would be if I could walk right into the middle of my apartment complex parking lot in the middle of the day, while people are looking, drop my pants and take a gigantic SHIT right in the middle of this crappy parking lot! I mean legally? I mean people could not even do one thing about it? Damn, I would pay good money for that privilege!

      You curryniggas have no idea how good you have it.

      • honyok

        Damn Robert
        You go right for the F^^ing Juglar – man. LMFAO

        • honyok

          Hey all you Hindus and people of India we really Love you here in the USA
          Namaste (or something like that) I was thinking if everyone shits in the streets over there in India their Dogs must be well fed.
          (dont let em lick you in the face though) UGH
          come to think of it …. dont they eat dogs over there?

      • honyok

        I would enjoy shitting on someone’s porch I did not like.
        that probably is a big deal over in India. Perhaps they have big turd shitting tournaments.

      • Kishen

        what bothers you we shit outside or inside, Dont exaggerate. Toilet facilities are improving as the population is a bit high there is a problem and india will solve all its problem and will economically outclass other countries. India is a beautiful land with rich culture which was polluted by the filthy british and other foreigners. India will regain its glory and prove the world we the indian aryans are greatest in this world you smug bastard. Indians are not niggers as mentioned by you, most of the indians have fair complexion only some doown south are black you racist bigot specs wearing bastard.

  35. priyanka

    hahaha and this admin is such a big loser.. banning hindus who are saying truth… losers cant even face the facts…

  36. priyanka

    never seen such a dumb but funny guy in my life.. poor ‘Robert Lindsay’

      • honyok

        Robert – please for my sake view Mott69’s latest post directed toward me.
        It has very HOSTILE tone and of combative nature.
        You know I apologized to him but apparently he is carrying a grudge in a back-pack. I dont expect you to ban him but a firm warning would be nice.
        – it is in the commentary of recent review of the Israel/gaza dispute

        Thank you sir

        • Unfortunately, you guys are allowed to attack each other on here. It’s just that you were going way overboard with it and just attacking people for no reason as a pure troll, that’s all.

          So yeah, Mott’s allowed to fight you, and you can fight him back.

          I don’t encourage that stuff on the site, but it goes on anyway.

        • honyok

          Ok Robert –
          well thanks for this- I respect that.
          but I though we were not allowed to use Hostile tone
          I am glad you shared this with me. Please dont nuke me when I give Mott69 a taste of his medicine.
          I can work him like he wouldnt believe as I have been at this a long time. Thanks

        • You can’t use hostile tone with me or Alpha.

          You fuckers can use it all you want with each other. It’s not exactly optimal, but I ain’t going to stop you.

  37. honyok

    I hear you loud and clear. I have read enough postings to understand that If I want to stay on this blog – of all people dont disrespect you or it is
    adios. I read you loud and clear Sir. Sorry I bothered you with this.
    But I do think Mott is doing the same thing I was accused of doing and that is following me around looking for a fight. He wants to hold a grudge.
    Thanks for the advice

  38. Rig-Veda cannot be dated before BC1500
    1. Archeological evidences says that Indus valley civilization was existing till BC1900 on a particular river bank. which means certain river had not dried out till BC1900. The same river is identified as Saraswathi in Rigveda. As per the points mentioned in Rigveda Saraswathi river had dried out when the book was written.

    2. There are enough evidences in Rigveda for the people of Vedic period were using cucumber family vegetables. But the food samples from the teeth of people & cattle and vessels used for cooking and storing in Indus Valley civilization has not trace of cucumber family vegetables.. (Indus valley civilization was existing till BC1900)

    3. Rigveda people were using horses. But there is no evidences for the usage of horses in the Indus valley civilization. (Some sanskrit scholars tried to change the single horn ox seals to horse seal by removing its horn has been identified.)

    4. The second half of Rigveda borrowed many Dravidian words including min(fish), pal(fruit) etc., The linguistic researchers say Sanskrit borrowed morphology from Dravidian language. Lexicon & morphology constructs a language. The lead as to conclude that Sanskrit was derived after Dravidian and Iranian language has evolved.

    5. Megasthanis a greek scholar who has visited India at BC300 clearly says that the hindu(Veda based religion) gods krishna & shiva are identical to the Greek gods. It tells us that the Veda Based religion is imported thus it supports the migration of Veda based religion people moved from Europe. The Genetic study (based on heplogroup R1a1 and derivatives) suggests that the people migration was not before 5000 years.. (i.e. BC3000.) Since the migration is supported by genetic study it cannot be refused.

    6. This migration cannot be dated back prior to Indus valley period.. Since they don’t share cultural & constructional practices. And food, animals those are mentioned above.

    • Abhishek Tiwari


    • Manny

      Ah a Dravidian christian.. Tsk Tsk! Nothing is older than Jesus! Sheesh! The virus is spreading.

    • Manny

      Let me picture this.. you are a Dravidian christian who wears a 3 piece suit and tie in 110 degree weather to go to church!

      Check the word “Acculturation” Gunga Din!

  39. Dr swami gyananand

    paleo channel studies and remote sensing geomorphological studies done by scientist has established beyond any doubt origin of Saraswati river from the Himalayas and flowing through Haryana, Punjab, Rajasthan-Gujrat to arbain sea, River bed, locations along its banks have been established. Plate tectonic theory and geological history of the area fully establish saraswati river bed. Now sample analysis leave no scope of any kind of confusion. whole discussion is being wastage of time and out of ignorance of scientific knowledge of present day science.
    2. Mohanjadro civilisation new sites in Haryana & Punjab explored during recent 30 years has removed all confusion. History has to be rewritten with new evidences published and accepted by scientific community.
    3.Genome studies published recently established that Aryans were aboriginal of Bharat and they never came from outside. Genome results of Dravidians and North Bhartiya are same. No caste, genome of Bharatvanshis are same. Genome results of aryan do not match europeans. Invasion theory is wrong and fabricated.
    4. Recent scientific studies and geological evolution, origin and geological evolution of Horse & elephant, their age, evolution of the Himalyas are significant in this study. Every thing is clear, no fun relying on sayings by so and so person.

  40. Tanishq

    hey author, you are a sick person ,really sick, your mind is closed like a hemispherical bowl, you dont want to think on ideas ,new ideas ,the world is falling apart because of conservative people like you
    first of all have you even read the VEDAS ?? because i have read them in sanskrit , not fully but atleast i understood it well, do you know that vedas are the most ancient knowledge books in the history of world ,the time when people of your nation couldn’t even speak a work ,at that time our small children recited those holy phrases of ramayana and mahabharta,
    vedas contain-
    1)biological information, on fertility,embryo,eye surgery,heart surgery,etc
    2)it contains a huge amount of information about the construction of space-ship called “VIMANAS” with detailed chemical proportion and solid detailed diagramatical explanation
    3)it contains information on metaphysics,quantumphysics, and mechanics
    4)it contains information about the 9 dimensions that we pass through ,the laws governing our universe also stating that “we ,the humans are multidimensional cosmic beings, human civilization has come and gone 5 times ,each time a catatrophe struck, humans vanished ,and again repopulated this planet ,neither we ,nor any higher entity can change this,this is the cycle of our planet ”
    many thanks

  41. mother fukkers are christians(Robert Lindsay gay bastard)

    i am banning you western gay and incest dog and god jesus bye.

  42. mother fukkers are christians(Robert Lindsay gay bastard)


  43. (Robert Lindsay the great mother fukker)

    JESUS IS SON OF WHORE. jesus DNA is match with marrys father. what incest christians and incest gods. JEsus is not god 1st u know stupid asshole. The Great da Vinci CODE said jesus is son of whore like Robert Lindsay and both their mom fucked by own father(jesus grand father and robert lindsay grand father.). virgin marry hymen teared by own father 1st then after she fucked by all. wish u all holy incest christians bastards.

  44. robert Lindsay

    i’m banning u christian dog. bye

  45. Akshay

    Well if u can’t understand the meaning of hymns in Rigveda or other texts in sanskrit then better to GTFO…… Western thinking is to divide and break Indian culture…. The Harvard medical school conducted DNA testing in Indian land and it resulted that Therd was no Aryan invasion and Vedas were the produce of even before IVC…. Go and boost ua low knowledge level…..

  46. AM

    Just seeing the discussion between Robert and Alok shows me that Robert is an angry man who is desperately trying to say that the AIT theory is true by claiming so called serious scholars outside of India support it.

    I don’t want to waste my time pointing the numerous ways in which that argument is flawed.

    Secondly, all of Robert’s statements are “he says” “she says” without providing a detailed response to any of the points raised by the folks who support the OIT theory.

    His vulgar tone also shows he is mentally unstable.

    I must conclude that this blog post is not supported in any way shape or form. Robert, as much as I like white people, you won’t be able to stop the truth from emerging. Sorry.

  47. ram

    there is no evidence of aryan invasion to india. aryan is indiginous to india.veduc civiluzation us 8000 year old. by genetic, archeological study.
    peoples are stupid that says aryan invasion theory.
    we are hindus we know our history better than west peoples. so do not argue on this topic.

  48. Kapillas

    Robert Lindsay… I heard ur m0m was a H00ker…..She was r@ped by the v@tican priest. in the confession box … Did u put cr0ss down ur arse while writing this..

    Degraded christian pin worm ..take bath before commenting

  49. An exciting development for Rigveda and Sanskrit lovers: A completely new translation of selected hymns such as the “Creation hymn,” the “10 kings battle” hymn, Vena hymn and the “river hymn (nadi stuti).

    A Horse Amongst Donkeys
    (Some secrets of the Rigveda)

    ebook now available at your favourite ebook store.

  50. SHI

    9000 YBP=7000 BC? C’est impossible!

    The following version of history seems more plausible.

    4004 BC (Genesis 1:1) – God Created the Heavens and the Earth followed the Garden of Eden and mankind (Adam and Eve), the Fall of Man into sin and depravity was impending.

    ~3500 BC – Cain kills Abel
    ~ 2500 BC – Wickedness abounds among humans provoking God’s vengeful wrath
    Other events: Nephilim walked alongside humans, the Age of the Dinosaurs and Dragons
    ~ 2500 BC – Noah builds his Ark to save the innocent from God’s fury during the Great Flood.
    Dinosaurs become extinct
    ~ 2100 BC – The Tower of Babel incident provokes God’s indignation again. He disperses the people to different nations.

    The peopling of India, Europe, China and Meso-America begins. This is what would be considered the Indus Valley civilization, Minoan civilization in Greece, early Chinese emperors and Druid tribes in Europe

    ~ 2090 BC – Abram comes to Egypt

    1500 BC…
    Vedic civilization begins in India.

    900 BC…
    Mahabharata war

    480 BC
    Greek-Persian wars

    0 BC — Jesus Christ born
    33 AD – Christ crucified

    Present times
    2030~2040 – End times in full swing (The Mark of the Beast, the Whore of Babylon).
    2045 _ The RAPTURE. Millions of Christians worldwide disappear without trace!
    2050 – Anti-Christ assumes authority over all Earth. The Great tribulations to begin.
    2057 – The Second Coming of JESUS CHRIST

  51. Jeevitesh Saharan

    Please do a thorough research before writing anything.
    U dont understand sanskrit and are still trying reluctantly to comment on it.
    Bring this to your knowlidge that the terracotta figures of horse(even a seddled horse) has been found from IVC sites, it seems absurd that horses came before the aryans (who according to you people came from outside), hell, there was no parselling facility at that time. Horses were known to some deccan part of india also. This implies that aryans were indo origined.
    There is lot to be written about your half knowlidge like, vedas dont mention the skill of pyramid making but rather its given in shulba sutra.
    Plz before writing about anything give a complete study.

    • A terracotta horse was NOT found in the IVC. The Hindutwas made that up. It is another of their big lies. Horses were not known in Decca or anywhere else before the Aryans. Why? Because they did not exist, that’s why.

      You guys are just wrong. Indo-European did not come out of India. Aryans were external invaders to India, not indigenous. There is now consensus about this among scholars throughout the world. Only you Indians disagree, which is very suspicious.

  52. steven leung

    Lol i think ive just stumbled onto another crazy revisionist historian. Missing your Max Mueller and aryan race propoganda much lindsay??

    • It’s not revisionism “Steven Leung.” Aryan Invasion Theory is the accepted fact by the overwhelming majority of historians and linguists. The only people who disagree and morons from India, and they are the laughingstock of humanity.

      PS You’re banned Hindu.


  53. Blab

    The rig veda is older than 1500 years. Mueller just picked a date at random. I work with indologists although my forte is iranian history and the saraswati theory isnt dubious its quite a significant argument held by scholars.
    you need to update your site with the latest information it is outdated

    • Not one sane scholar anywhere on Earth believes that garbage. Indian “scholars” don’t count because Indians are too stupid to do scholarship.

      • ROBERT

        My frank discourse with Indians probably offends some Indians and one or two will howl for me to be banned.

        Truth is hard to read and they dislike it. You’ll notice they become heated quickly when I report facts.

        I can accept this but if it disrupts your blog and enough Indian votes register to ban me…that is democracy.

        Furthermore I am frank about how I used drugs and prostitutes in India. Why would I bother lying about things I did in 1999, 2000. I was young then. So that is also something I am upfront about.

  54. nebhos

    I think it should be added that besides the fact that any serious indologist will never tell the exact date of the Vedic texts, there is the same issue with the contents of the Vedas, since they presented a pretty chaotic material without order and even conflicting ideas until the Vedanta and Shankara systematized them into a coherent whole in the 4th – 8th centuries AD. It is a fact every indologist knows. So, claims about the early nature of some genius and alleged Vedic ideas having impacted the rest of the world (which could easily be drawn out from any other ancient neighboring culture) are just proofless.

  55. Hindu Human

    The very fact that you start banning anyone who doesn’t agree with your opinions shows that you are really a loser, afraid of a debate, lack any intellectual capacity to reason, and are outright uncivilized rowdy shameless creature who thinks others are dogs. Uneducated, illiterate, adamant and arrogant. Not fit for decent and civilized human interaction. There is no point going into any evidence, logic, facts, truth etc as all this is simply not of your level. You are too raw for any of this. And considering such lowly thoughts you have in your mind, it is unlikely any education will ever improve you in any way. You will die the death of a coward and be born again to pay for these sins.

  56. Aryan,a word from Sanskrit
    Aryavarta has been the Home of the Aryan for over 5500 years old.
    Carbon dating dates the Aryan Vedas to 3300 BC
    The Aryan ONLY existed in the Indus Valley.
    Aryan people where “black Skinned Hindu” -Max Mueller said.
    The Aryan people where NOT European.Aryan is a word from Sanskrit. Just because the Aryavarta is older than Europe Europeans are trying to claim the non European Aryan Vedic Culture.

  57. Mr. Lindsay, be open minded! There are many scientific theories which are being proved incorrect with the latest advancement in the technology. So, the old theories also could be wrong.

    So, be open to accept if we are you proved wrong. Don’t be stubborn.

  58. Venkatesan

    As an Indian atheist who considers himself culturally Hindu, it’s very amusing to read the comments of my fellow countrymen 🙂 As for people complaining about “rude/unparliamentary/abusive/racist/narcissist/etc etc” behavior of Robert, guys, it’s his bloody blog, and he at least has the right to call bullshit when he smells it :). From what I have read, I think Aryans migrated into India rather than invaded, and the consensus for Rig Veda seems to be around 1200 BC. Any earlier date is just without merit.

    Also, I feel bad when my fellow Indians write lot of crap without even understanding it – for e.g., one comment says Sanskrit preserved the “ancient retroflex stops” and some more incoherent babble. Dude, retroflex is not ancient and is not even PIE (proto Indo-European) – none of the other languages in the family have it. The consensus is that they were due to influenced of Dravidian languages on Sanskrit. I would like to conclude my babble with a joke:

    Americans dug 1km into the ground and found copper and concluded Americans were so advanced that they used copper a millennia ago for communications. Russians, not to be undone, dug even deeper and found silver at 2km and declared Russians were even more advanced, as silver was a better conductor than copper and concluded Russians used much better technology much earlier than Americans. Finally Indians started digging – 1km, 2km, 3km … 10km – they fond nothing. They concluded we were using wireless even before the bloody Americans and Russians 🙂

    To me this joke really captures the mentality of so many of my countrymen – yes, India has lot to offer, but so do other cultures and countries, and we certainly are not the best of the best. No point in stoking one’s egos by laying claim to just about everything under the sun and believing in wild fantasies.

    • Venkatesan

      If Alexander with his Greek Empire and technology got his ass kicked in the Punjab than how did some stray whites manage to conquer Dravidians?

      Invasion seems unlikely.

      I don’t think many Dravidians lived in Northern Indian when Aryans arrived. They do not like the cold. I know this from working Keralites.

      “Aryans” are probably a composite of Russians, Iranians, Huns and maybe even Ukrainians.

      Probably they were not advanced enough to mount an advanced attack on the Dravidians.

      • Venkatesan

        What are you talking about? Its not about technology – Indians and Greeks were more or less on similar footing then technologically. Alexander defeated everyone including Porus in Punjab/Kashmir – his ass was definitely not kicked. He turned back due to revolt in his own ranks and installed his commanders as local kings. The current consensus is Aryan Migration and not invasion – this I clearly stated so.

        Your wild definition of Aryans doesnt seem right. Aryans are what our ancestors/part ancestors called themselves and linguistically similar Iranians called themseles so too – Aryan sanskrit vs Airyan in avestan -> Iran.

        Dravidian linguistic influence does not mean an attack – it just means that two languages/peoples co-existed and influenced each other

        • VENKATESAN Some white Slavic loser snatched or traded a cow for a Dravidian little girl your earliest ancestors popped out 9 months later.

          You’re a result of rough white men from Russia or Ukraine seducing little Dravidian girls 5,000 years ago bro. Sorry.

          You’d like to say Persia because it helps you deny that when a white male screwed a Dravidian girl it began your existence and these days you do not really dig Goras after the Brits and the Portuguese but it is what you are.

          Every Indian has a different wild def of who the Aryans were and I have heard “Iran” and “Afghanistan” and “Persia” and “Ukraine” and “Turkish”.

          North Indian Brahmin have more Caucasian features than Persians-that heavy build and Slavic cheekbones and finer features than Persians-so I do not buy that they came from Iran. They seem to have nothing in common with Parsee people who of course are Iranian.


        • Venkatesan

          I know you hate to acknowledge that your North Indian existence began when some little Dravidian chick got traded by her Dad to a white dude 5,000 years ago. A Slav from Russia or Ukraine.

          You deny it lately because the Portuguese and English really pissed you off with their thievery and stupid mismanagement of the Partition and everything else.

          So you claim the Aryans were Persian.

    • VENKATESAN Some Truths for Nordics

      “Aryans” were loser white males who drifted into India pushed out of their own societies in Ukraine or Russia.

      They did what loser adult males do and found young Dravidian girls to have sex with.

      Dravidians were probably slightly more advanced, in fact. These were rough stupid white males who lived off cattle.

      It was probably their descendants who actually set up the caste system hundreds or thousands of years later.

      Punjabi people and Kashmir are rednecks to this day.

      Sikhs are not Aryan. They are descended from Scythian tribes who were mercs for some Indian king. They come from the Volga river.

      Gujarati people are from Georgia, hence the word Gujji.

      Parsi people do not look like Brahmin and I doubt that Aryans were “Arabs” from North Iran. This is rubbish.

      • Venkatesan

        I am not sure if I should laugh or be dumbfounded 🙂 Are you sure you are not kidding? Why are you bringing in some wild topics like “aryans” vs arabs? And why dont you please read up? Iraninans are NOT arabs – they call themselves aryans and their language farsi is definitely in the PIE family – Indo Iranian branch in particular to which sanskrit belongs.

        Looking at people you cant discern anything. Craig Cobb has black genes in him 🙂 And we dont have any “pure” original aryans anymore in India – including Brahmins everyone is mixed.

        At the end of the day, I dont even know if you have a coherent thought process/ideology and seem to just make things up as you go and then you wonder why Robert just replies “blah blah blah..” to you. Sigh.

        • “They are from Ukraine” no “Iran” no “Afghanistan” every Indian has a different version of where Aryans were from.

          My guess is that North Indians are composite of EVERY group that has ever invaded North India. Scythian, Hun, Greek, Pashtun etc.

          Perhaps there was never an original wave of Iranians who migrated into Indian but various interlopers.

        • Parsi like Freddie Mercury do not look North Indian Brahmins.

        • Evidence of being a Gora for years in India.

          Was sort of a street person there.

        • VENKATESAN

          I am not going to tell you what I did in India for obvious reasons that I want your money again but I am a Gora that spent years in and out of there for work (And prostitutes) and drugs.

          Discerning Indians

          Goans have the most white blood in India. I took alot of drugs there when I was not employed. I loved getting high on Anjuna. I was a real druggie in India.

          Malayalam are Asians, tropical, maybe similar to Australian Aboriginals who seem to be their dumb cousins, sort of. Real good at math and lying.

          Also unmanageable drunks like Australian Aboriginals.

          Gujaratis look like Arabs, they are desert people.

          Bengali are Chinks. I paid many of the women for sex and have written volumes about this. Bengali women give rocking blow jobs.

          Punjabi and Sikhs are rednecks.

  59. Venkatesan

    You made my day, thanks 🙂 I hope you are aware “Iran” and “Afganistan” are on the way from Ukraine to India. You would do well do brush up on this. I dont subscribe to all that Robert does – esp I dont know if there is really any race based generic intelligence difference and if IQ is really measuring intelligence – my own position is that culture, religion and a craving for identity/superiority generally makes one blind and ignorant despite his actual /base intelligence and that IQ tests can be off the mark. I have seen intelligent/dumb ppl among all races – Indian, Chinese, Caucasian from europe/america, Hispanics, Polynesian – and find it hard to believe there is some difference in hardware.

    I agree with you that we can never be sure what happened few thousand years ago, but pushing wild fantasies doesnt help. There certainly was an agenda among Europeans in last century be it pushing christianity or establishing their superiority or trying to divide/rule etc but blindy blaming “western” scientists and not accepting a scholarly on India just because they are not indians isnt right – just analyze and take the wheat

    Freddie Mercury, Noth Indian Brahmins, South Indian Brahmins, Afganistan, Iran, Ukraine, Scythians – whew – you are all over the place. If you want to try to glean the truth, please do some research and just go where the truth leads you to.

    I dont know if you are Indian, but taking the messages from Indians on this forum, I think we should learn to be truthful and not be emotional – talking about “white aryans” raping “young dravidian girls” etc is utter nonsense. After I say that a white supremacist has black/sub saharan DNA which means some of his ancestors were from there – he doesnt look an inch african – you still keep harping parsis dont look like brahmins and that too “north indian” brahmins yadda yadda. If you are indeed an Indian, no need to be defensive about anything. If something is true, it is true and just carry on – no one needs to feel any guilt over what some ancestor did 3000+ years ago-admixture need not necessarily be just rape. Human population has natural tendency to interbreed and thats it


      I don’t think white dudes raped them. I think they just drifted into India from Russia and possibly the Ukraine steppes and simply hooked up with unattached young Dravidian girls. Really young like 13 or 14. White dudes are always doing this and were 5,000 years ago.

      Your ancestors popped out as a result of this and set up a caste system. But that was down the road 1,000 years.

      Brits did not invent the Hindi-speaking line as the South-North India. Malayalam and North Indians did.

      Nope, German-American.

      Hung around and sometimes worked in India for a few years. Mostly to pay for drugs and prostitutes.

      I probably fathered some children of my own with all the Bengali prostitutes I had sex with, you never know.

    • Just another Gora who spent some time getting high and partying in Indian, mostly on Goan beaches.

      Some pissed-off Malabaris told me the Aryans were from “Iran” and others said “Afghanistan” and some said “Turkey” but my own opinion is that Aryans were from the steppes of Russia/Eastern European.

      My point about Scythian tribes is that various Caucasoid groups migrated to India.

      Whites had no agenda to divide Malayalam and North Indian people along the Hindi line. That was around forever, linguistically.

    • Sometimes I wonder why the Indians believe I am Indian. I’ve been fairly descriptive about what I did in India. Work, drugs, prostitutes, partying.

      No Indian in me and did not even grow up near Indians in a place like New Jersey or Brampton, Ontario.

  60. why do think I am from India………..

  61. Patel Tushit Jayeshbhai

    Yes, I can help you.

  62. Patel Tushit Jayeshbhai

    Yes, I can help you.

    First answer me:-

    (1). On the what base you are claiming that Rig-Veda is said to being around 3900 years?
    (2). What is the evidence of AM (Aaryan Migration)?
    (3). One the what bases you are claiming that Great river Saraswati disappeared in BCE 1900?
    (4). Why you mentioned that no Sages dated back to BCE 3700?
    (5). How can you come to know that Iron came to India in BCE 1200?
    (6). Why you claiming that Harappa civilization destroyed by Aryan Invantion?
    (7). How can you ponit out on our religion and our great culture (Mahabharat)?

    Please Answer.

    Don’t fingure on Great & Ancient Bharat (India)

  63. Abhishek Kumar Suman

    Well you ask that why Hindus want to push back the dates of Rig Veda? What if I ask why do Christians and others want to keep the dates as close to as their history? Do you consider that a culture could not go back to a time when your culture didn’t even known to exist? Is that not a racial superiority theory?

    First of all you wrote on that matter which does not even concerns you and about which you know nothing at all. For instance- you said It does not make sense that the Rig Veda does not mention cotton. Perhaps you don’t know that Rig Veda mentions all the crops that were grown at that time.

    It is taught by the westerners not to believe anyone blindfoldly. So do you want us to believe everything any other historian says. The last line you told was “why would the British do that?” Simply because Britishers consider themselves superior. This whole discussion is based on racial discrimination by the westerners. Including yours. You need a help huh? My help to you Is stop this discrimination and you will see everything clearly.

    P.S- the course of the Saraswati river has been found by the FRENCH satellite as described in the Rig Veda.

  64. Hindutva craziness is beyond belief. A lot of moderate hindus feel shameful for some of them activities. Here is my conversation with a hindutva ideologist.

    You simply can’t state a fact. They will get angry and call you things. Please read and see for yourself, hindutva. And the worst of this lot are the educated.

    Key points from that conversation:
    According to that hindutva ideologist,
    – Me stating a fact about my mother tongue Tamil is donkey praising its own tail.
    – Arabic is junk.
    – Abrahamic religions are a curse and hinduism is why humanity is left is India.
    – Hindutvas have an agenda.
    – Inscriptions from 3rd century BC – 1st century BC are Devanagari scripts. He has seen it himself.
    – Islamists won’t accept the antiquity of Tamil and so we should hinduism, but when I asked him if he would the antiquity, he will only accept sanskrit.
    – I can either become a part of their movement or endanger my future generations.
    – It is totally my loss not embracing hinduism. I’m in fact a hindu, a moderate one who can myth from history.
    – Indigenous population of Tamils will be wiped out if we don’t embrace hinduism because of Islam terrorism.

    And many more..

  65. Hindutva craziness is beyond belief. A lot of moderate hindus feel shameful for some of them activities. Here is my conversation with a hindutva ideologist.

    You simply can’t state a fact. They will get angry and call you things. Please read and see for yourself, hindutva. And the worst of this lot are the educated.

    Key points from that conversation:
    According to that hindutva ideologist,
    – Me stating a fact about my mother tongue Tamil is donkey praising its own tail.
    – Arabic is junk.
    – Abrahamic religions are a curse and hinduism is why humanity is left is India.
    – Hindutvas have an agenda.
    – Inscriptions from 3rd century BC – 1st century BC are Devanagari scripts. He has seen it himself.
    – Islamists won’t accept the antiquity of Tamil and so we should hinduism, but when I asked him if he would the antiquity, he will only accept sanskrit.
    – I can either become a part of their movement or endanger my future generations.
    – It is totally my loss not embracing hinduism. I’m in fact a hindu, a moderate one who can myth from history.
    – Indigenous population of Tamils will be wiped out if we don’t embrace hinduism because of Islam terrorism.

    And many more..

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