Why Hindutvas Reject the Aryan Migration Theory

From the comments, an excellent view on why Hindus so fervently reject the Aryan Migration Theory:

The reason why so many Hindu nationalists fervently reject the Aryan migration to India is ideological and not empirical.Hindu nationalism (‘Hindutva’) is India’s unique brand of fascism and interestingly enough its dynamics work in a similar way to communism; ie history is the product of the struggle between 2 antithetical groups/ideologies.

In this case its the indigenous Indians (Hindus) versus outside ‘invaders’. Hindus are depicted as being cultured, civilized, peaceful and amicable, whereas the invaders are just the opposite: uncivilized, vicious and warlike. The mark of a true Indian is Hinduism, and those following religions which were founded outside India (Islam/Christianity) are seen as being not truly Indian.

Hinduism is seen as being completely indigenous to India and the thought that this religion entered India via migration and conquest (like the Abrahamic religions that they so despise) was abhorrent to the Hindutva fascist. Hindutvadis will have you believe that the Aryan theory was concocted by the British as a means of justifying their imperialism and racism.

Ironically, Hindutvadis subscribe to the idea that India’s history is divided into 3 parts, the glorious Hindu age, the barbaric Muslim age, and then finally British imperialism (followed by independence). This way of looking at History was first articulated by the Brits, namely James Stuart Mill. This the Hindu fascists have no trouble believing, but the Aryan theory is rejected outright.

The reason I’m writing all of this is to show you that Hindutva fascists have absolutely no credibility, neither moral nor academic. If you wish to sample some of their toxic for yourself, then read the writings of Sudheer Birodhkar.

Only in India would such nonsense be taken seriously. If you continue writing posts about India and Indian history, expect a lot of Hindutvadis to drop in. My post should give you enough background information when dealing with the fools in the future.

The problem here is that Hindu nationalism is so widespread in Hindu society that I have met many Hindus who subscribe to most of the Hindutva line while aggressively rejecting the suggestion that they are Hindutvas or even Indian nationalists. All of these folks were high caste Indians, usually Brahmins. Many of them voted for Congress, and some stated that they strong opposed the Hindutva line.

So the Hindutva line, or Hindu nationalism, goes beyond the Hindutvas themselves and merges with Indian nationalism, which is nearly the norm among educated Indian Hindus. Indian nationalism and Hindu nationalism merge in the Indian Hindu such that some mixture of the two is simply the normal mindset of your educated Indian Hindu.

We have also had some Indian Muslims on here aggressively opposing the AMT, which also makes me wonder, but it’s not unusual for Indian Muslims to be Indian nationalists. We have had some other Indian Muslims on here who were fervent Indian nationalists. It seems that even some Indian Muslims buy into Hindu nationalist and Indian nationalist theories.

This posts makes many good points though. Hinduism is native to India. The native Indians are good good, peaceful and civilized. Invaders from the outside are bad, warlike and uncivilized. Therefore, Hinduism and really Indianness itself could not possibly have come from the hated outsiders. The AMT implies that indigenous Indians themselves were the hated invaders at one point. No way is that going to wash.

It also means that Hinduism itself came from outside India, like the Islam and Christianity that they hate so much. No way could Hinduism have been another “invader religion” like the Abrahamic religions they despise.

50 Comments

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50 responses to “Why Hindutvas Reject the Aryan Migration Theory

  1. vikram

    the idea that hindutva has entered from outside is unreasonable.it was natural for the men of ancient times to migrate. .some of these could be called the aryans. hindutva is actually a result of a merger of the Aryan faith/way of living and the many local faiths of the subcontinent.however the religion is formed in India and the name Hindu in itself is relatively new.the religion is actually a name given to many forms of worship practiced in the subcontinent and is not institutionalized as in the Abrahamic religions.but, in the present state,it is necessary to remain as a state and hindutva is a word for unification.the outsiders or the abrahmic religions have remained outsiders as they seldom express patriotism or believe india to be their motherland.history tells us that they have been offensive towards all the native faiths. abrahamic monotheism and iconoclasm have been effectively used to wipe out all the heathen pagans except in India .many people do not believe in aryan invasion theory due to a variety of reasons.but it has nothing to do with it being same as the invading abrahamic religions as Aryans were a immigrants and gradually merged with the locals as happens in the natural process of evolution. in today`s Hinduism,there has been a minimal reflection of aryan faith9most aboriginal beliefs have been retained).there were no greedy baptisms or conversions by force or treating local faiths as evil and pagans. hence hindutva is indigenous to India and rejection of aryan invasion theory has nothing to do with the identity of hinduism as a religion.

  2. Hindutvas discredit Aryan Invasion Theory by saying that “DNA tests can establish only proximate relations and they cannot trace the history of hundreds of years back”. But Hindutvas cannot reply about cultural and lingual differences between Aryans and Dravidians.

  3. Any way, Hindutvas can gain nothing by denying well established facts.

  4. Pingback: Aryan-Dravidian unity

  5. Kumar

    Bullshit article. You have citied no evidence for you claims but have a seemly obvious bias against the idea of hinduism not originating from the Aryan Invasion. Using a dubious source from 19th century does not imply scientific rigor or at the very least a logical argument. Your entire premise is based on a stereotypical viewpoint of all hindus believe the same way and your anecdotal experience cannot be taken seriously. You clearly have a beef with hindus (excuse the pun), which is political in nature. But claiming that your point is rational while using utterly irrational arguments does not help your case. If you have something to say, try not concocting your own, “facts” to backup your delusions.

    • All right elephant jockey, I am banning you.

      PS If India is so wonderful, what are you doing in Washington DC?

      HAND!

      • Ricks1977

        Good Point Robert – Hindutvas are pathetic…. Here in the Southern Cali region we have f*ck loads of Indians thinking their culture is the best think since sliced f*cking cheese! Well why the hell are they in a Western Country.

        The Only Indians I can tolerate are the US Born (Heavily Assimilated) Indians! The FOB’s/FOP’s (Fresh of the Boat / Plane) – Jeez don;t get me started on them! 80-90% are unbearable….

        I can never understand Immigrants that come to Developed western countries and then brag on about their shit culture / language / values and country….. This is the culture / values and country which FAILED THEM!

      • Kumar

        haha butthurt racist Robert Lindsay.

      • Kumar

        Oh…and this has nothing to do with India, it’s about hinduism and your lack of integrity.

  6. Jason Y

    Attacking cultures can be hypocritical though. We should always look at backward oppressive forces in the USA, before we attack oppression elsewhere. Hinduism is oppressive? Well, what about Jim Crow?

  7. Commie-Influenced Hindu nationalism…hmm, caste-based nationalist socialism with a bunch of swastikas…is a pet peeve of mine. Because I am really interested in Aryans and central Asia generally. The weird political-ideological denialism of Indians is a great annoyance when trying to find anthropology treatments of East Aryan civilizations.

  8. As another point, there is a parallel between Mazdaism, Gnosticism, Hindu caste and National Socialism proper; they all have a ‘chosen people’ ethic. It is, in all cases, probably inherited from Zoroastrianism (likewise for the Jews, who may well have been invented altogether by Persians).

  9. Hasan S

    For me hindu hardliner in India reject the AMT to prepare the ground of declaring muslims and christians and other non-hindus as outsiders and paving the constitutional way of treatimg them as 2nd or 3rd class citizenswhen it will come to fundamental rights.

  10. Malla

    Lecture from by Prof Lal from the UCLA. Most of these Internet Hindus are Silicon valley Nerds, they are not historians at all.

  11. TRASH

    MALLA So many different groups wandered into North India from Iran, Georgia, Central Asia, Greece and possibly Eastern Europe in ancient times who do we classify as “Aryan”?

    South Asia has a long history and if we accept that some proto-Caucasian groups came into India how do we classify which?

    • Malla

      I agree, India has always absorbed populations from Central Asia and other parts of the world.
      One example is this
      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yuezhi
      or this
      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indo-Scythians
      or this
      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kambojas

      So many (Caucasoid or in some case Mongoloid) immigrants have come to make the Indian population today. But the official “Aryans” are the ones who came and destroyed the Indus valley Civilization and later created a new civilization by mixing the old and their own. It is possible they were the same people who took over the Medes in Iran.

      • Malla

        Also the Aryans introduced into India a mythology which became part of Hinduism. This mythology is similar to Persian, Hitite and European mythologies
        https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proto-Indo-European_religion
        The term for “a god” was *deiwos,[4] reflected in Hittite, sius; Latin, deus, divus; Sanskrit, deva; Avestan, daeva (later, Persian, divs); Welsh, duw; Irish, dia; Old Norse, tívurr; Lithuanian, Dievas; Latvian, Dievs.[5]
        *Dyēus Ph2tēr (literally “sky father”) is the god of the day-lit sky and the chief god of the Indo-European pantheon. The name survives in Greek Zeus with a vocative form Zeu pater; Latin Jūpiter (from the archaic Latin Iovis pater; Diēspiter), Sanskrit Dyáus Pitā, and Illyrian Dei-pátrous.[6]
        *Plth2wih2 (literally “the broad one”) is reconstructed[7] as Plenty,[verification needed] a goddess of wide flat lands and the rivers that meander across them. Forms include Hittite Lelwani, a goddess of the underworld, “the pourer”,[8] and Sanskrit Prithvi.
        *Perkwunos, known as “the striker”, is reconstructed[9] from Sanskrit Parjanya, Prussian Perkuns, Lithuanian Perkūnas, Latvian Pērkons, Slavic Perun, and Norse Fjörgyn. Fjörgyn was replaced by Thor among the Germanic-speaking peoples. The Celtic hammer god Sucellus (also cf. Taranis “Thunderer”) is of the same character, but with an unrelated name.
        *H2eus(os), is believed to have been the goddess of dawn,[10] continued in Greek mythology as Eos, in Rome as Aurora, in Vedic as Ushas, in Lithuanian mythology as Aušra ‘dawn’ or Auštaras (Auštra) ‘the god (goddess) of the northeast wind’, Latvian Auseklis, the morning star (Lithuanian Aušrinė, ‘morning star’); Ausera, and Ausrina, goddesses of dawn or of the planet Venus; Gallic Esus, a god of hearths; Slavic, Iaro, a god of summer. The form Arap Ushas appears in Albanian folklore, but is a name of the Moon. See also the names for the Sun which follow. An extension of the name may have been *H2eust(e)ro,[11] but see also the form *as-t-r, with intrusive -t- [between s and r] in northern dialects”.[12] Anatolian dialects: Estan, Istanus, Istara; Greek, Hestia, goddess of the hearth; Latin Vesta, goddess of the hearth; in Armenian as Astghik, a star goddess; possibly also in Germanic mythology as Ēostre or Ostara; and Baltic, Austija.
        *PriHeh2, is reconstructed (Mallory & Adams 2006, pp. 208) as “beloved, friend” (Sanskrit priya, Polish przyjaźń), the love goddess. Other forms may include Old Norse Freyja and Frigg, Slavic priye, and Hittite puru.
        *Deh2nu- ‘River goddess’ is reconstructed (Mallory & Adams 2006, p. 434) from Sanskrit Danu, Irish Danu; Welsh Dôn, and a masc. form Ossetic Donbettys. The name has been connected with the Dan rivers which run into the Black Sea (Dnieper, Dniester, Don, and Danube) and other river names in Celtic areas.
        *Welnos, is reconstructed as a god of cattle from Slavic Veles, and Lithuanian Velnias (in archaic Lithuanian vėlės means ‘shades’ or ‘spirits of the departed’), “protector of flocks”; Velns in Latvian; as well as Old Norse Ullr, and Old English Wuldor, and even the Elysian fields in Greek myth and ritual (according to Jaan Puhvel). There may be a god of cattle in the northern lands, but the argument is very thin. These names were also once thought to be connected to Sanskrit Varuna and Greek Ouranos, for example by Max Muller (Comparative Mythology p. 84), but this is now rejected on linguistic grounds, (“the etymology is disputed” Shapiro, JIES 10, 1&2, p. 155[13]).
        Divine Twins: There are several sets, which may or may not be related.
        Analysis of different Indo-European tales indicate the Proto-Indo-Europeans believed there were two progenitors of mankind: *Manu- (“Man”; Indic Manu; Germanic Mannus) and *Yemo- (“Twin”; Indic Yama; Germanic Ymir), his twin brother. Cognates of this set of twins appear as the first mortals, or the first gods to die, sometimes becoming the ancestors of everyone and/or king(s) of the dead.[14][15]
        The Sun and Moon, as discussed below.
        Horse Twins, usually have a name that means ‘horse’ *ekwa-, but the names are not always cognate, because there is no lexical set (Mallory & Adams 2006, p. 432). They are always male and usually have a horse form, or sometimes, one is a horse and the other is a boy. They are brothers of the Sun Maiden or Dawn goddess, sons of the sky god, continued in Sanskrit Ashvins and Lithuanian Ašvieniai, identical to Latvian Dieva deli. Other horse twins are: Greek, Dioskouroi (Polydeukes and Kastor); borrowed into Latin as Castor and Pollux; Irish, the twins of Macha; Old English, Hengist and Horsa (both words mean ‘stallion’), and possibly Old Norse Sleipnir, the eight-legged horse born of Loki; Slavic Lel and Polel; possibly Christianized in Albanian as Sts. Flori and Lori. The horse twins may be based on the morning and evening star (the planet Venus) and they often have stories about them in which they “accompany” the Sun goddess, because of the close orbit of the planet Venus to the sun (JIES 10, 1&2, pp. 137–166, Michael Shapiro, who references D. Ward, The Divine Twins, Folklore Studies, No. 19, Univ. Calif. Press, Berkeley, 1968).
        A water or sea god is reconstructed (Mallory & Adams 2006, p. 438) as *H2epom Nepots ‘grandson/nephew of waters’ from Avestan and Vedic Apam Napat, and as *neptonos from Celtic Nechtan, Etruscan Nethuns, and Latin Neptune. This god may be related[clarification needed] to the Germanic water spirit, the Nix.[16] Similarly, most major Lithuanian rivers begin in ne- (e.g. Nemunas, Neris, Nevėžis). Poseidon fulfills the same role in Greek mythology, but although the etymology of his name is highly arguable, it is certainly not cognate to Apam Napat.
        The Sun and Moon are often seen as the twin children of various deities, but in fact the sun and moon were deified several times and are often found in competing forms within the same language. The usual scheme is that one of these celestial deities is male and the other female, though the exact gender of the Sun or Moon tends to vary among subsequent Indo-European mythologies. Here are two of the most common PIE forms:
        *Seh2ul with a genitive form *Sh2-en-s, Sun, appears as Sanskrit Surya, Avestan Hvara; Greek Helios, Latin Sol, Germanic *Sowilo (Old Norse Sól; Old English Sigel and Sunna, modern English Sun), Slavic Solntse, Lithuanian Saulė, Latvian Saule, Albanian Diell.[17] The original Indo-European solar deity appears to have been female,[18] a characteristic not only supported by the higher number of sun goddesses in subsequent derivations (feminine Sól, Saule, Sulis, Solntse—not directly attested as a goddess, but feminine in gender—Étaín, Grían, Aimend, Áine and Catha versus masculine Helios, Surya, Savitr, Usil and Sol; Hvare-khshaeta is of neutral gender), but also by vestiges in mythologies with male solar deities (Usil in Etruscan art is depicted occasionally as a goddess, while solar characteristics in Athena and Helen of Troy still remain in Greek mythology).
        *Meh1not Moon, gives Avestan, Mah; Greek Selene (unrelated), although they also use a form Mene; Latin, Luna, later Diana (unrelated), ON Mani, Old English Mona; Slavic Myesyats; Lithuanian, *Meno, or Mėnuo (Mėnulis); Latvian Meness; Roman Minerva. In Albanian, Hane is the name of Monday, but this is not related. (Encyclopedia of IE Culture, p. 385, gives the forms but does not have an entry for a moon goddess.) The original Indo-European lunar deity appears to have been masculine,[18] with feminine lunar deities like Selene, Minerva and Luna being a development exclusive to the eastern Mediterranean. Even in these traditions, remnants of male lunar deities, like Menelaus, remain.
        *Peh2uson is reconstructed (Mallory & Adams 2006, p. 434) as a pastoral god, based on the Greek god Pan, the Roman god Faunus and the Fauns, and Vedic Pashupati, and Pushan. See also Pax.
        There may have been a set of nature spirits or gods akin to the Greek Satyrs, the Celtic god Cernunnos and the Dusii, Slavic Veles and the Leszi, the Germanic Woodwose, elves and dwarves. There may also have been a female cognate akin to the Greco-Roman nymphs, Slavic vilas, the Huldra of Germanic folklore, and the Hindu Apsaras.
        It is also likely that they had three fate goddesses; see the Norns in Norse mythology, Moirai in Greek mythology, Sudjenice of Slavic folklore, Ursitoare in Folklore of Romania and Deivės Valdytojos in Lithuanian mythology. Celtic religion is also rife with triple goddesses, such as the Gaulish Matrones and the Morrigan of Ireland, and sometimes triplicate gods as well, but they are not always associated with fate. See also Triple deities.
        One common myth among almost all Indo-European mythologies is a battle ending with a hero or god slaying a serpent or dragon of some sort (Watkins 1995).
        Vahagn vs. Vishap in Armenian mythology;
        Zeus vs. Typhon, Kronos vs. Ophion, Apollo vs. Python, Heracles vs. the Hydra and Ladon, Perseus vs. Ceto, and Bellerophon vs. the Chimera in Greek mythology;
        Thor vs. Jörmungandr, Sigurd vs. Fafnir and Beowulf vs. the dragon in Germanic mythology;
        Indra vs. Vrtra in the Rigveda;
        Krishna vs. Kāliyā in the Bhagavata Purana;
        Fereydun, and later Garshasp, vs. Zahhak in Zoroastrianism and Persian mythology;
        Perun vs. Veles, Dobrynya Nikitich vs. Zmey in Slavic mythology;
        Făt-Frumos vs. Zmeu in Folklore of Romania
        Tarhunt vs. Illuyanka of Hittite mythology;
        Dian Cecht vs. Meichi of Celtic mythology
        Aspects of Indra as a deity are cognate to other Indo-European gods; they are either thunder gods such as Thor, Perun, and Zeus, or gods of intoxicating drinks such as Dionysus. The name of Indra (Indara) is also mentioned among the gods of the Mitanni, a Hurrian-speaking people who ruled northern Syria from ca.1500BC-1300BC.[6]

    • Lin

      The reason is VERY simple. As I said its an exercise of racial propaganda for internal consumption 1)To mitigate internal caste hostility that the low and out castes are not conquered people 2)To conjure up image of blonde Nordics and German sci&tech excellence whenever the word ‘aryan’ is invoked.
      ‘Aryans’ as lingual grouping is something(or a chastity belt) to fall back on when the discussion got too un-PC. The hindutwadis apparently flip back and forth between racial and lingual as the ‘pride’ and BS combo varies.

    • S26

      It’s pretty simple. Trace the group that has contributed little to nothing to the Indian region, other than scriptural lunacy and astrology / nadi shashtra pseudo science, and they will be the Aryans.

      Every other group had something to contribute to something that could sustain an economy. The cosmic infinite Brahmanas brought religion based begging as a means to sustain oneself.

  12. Malla

    Check this UCLA lecture as well.

    • Kulasekaran

      Mutta koodhi, Dravidian religion was yoga and some pagan gods which were hijacked by aryan marauders. Dravidian dint progress by contributing anything to Arianismm. Naalu booka nakkitu vandhu olara vendiyadhu, padippu puluthi Nu.nenappu

  13. Malla

    Check this out

    Early Aryan society vs later Indian Hindu society. Early Aryan Society was similar to Germanic society. Women had more rights and more equal to men. Aryan conquest of Indus valley is similar to the Germanic conquest of Rome or the Celtic conquest of ancient Turkey.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Galatia

    History is full of cases of tough Northern pastoral Barbarians conquering more sedentary civilized agricultural populations to the south, causing destruction in the beginning, becoming the aristocratic class, getting civilized with time and introducing their own flavour to the civilization and making the civilization even better but also getting absorbed by the earlier population by marrying their women. In the pre Industrial society, agriculture was the major sector of economy and places which were very fertile and had good conditions for grain production became rich and thus civilised. hence some of the earlier civilizations started near river valleys like the Nile, Indus, Tigris, Yellow River etc…. But tough smart barbarians who lived in much harsher places where food production was limited (Central Asia, Northern Europe, Mongolia) would conquer these civilized populations, spreading their genes but with time getting absorbed by the local populations after attempted apartheid and wars. It is like tough barbarian milk falling on an civilized sedentary espresso and the result is a Cappuccino.
    Germanic conquest of Rome, Mongol/Manchu conquest of China, Turkish conquest of Anatolia, Aryan/Scythian/ Hunnic/Persian/ Mughal conquest of India are all examples of this.

    • S26

      There is nothing “Germanic” about a gender neutral society. Most later Germanic societies weren’t even gender neutral.

      Reading into the Vedas and the Upanishads, as a way to understand ancient Hindu society makes little to no sense. These were mythology and philosophical thought experiments, for the most part. It would be like reading about the fantasy world of a radical social justice warrior 2000 years from now, and concluding that the time around 2000 AD was the age of global gay pride and that everyone was either a misogynistic fascist or a liberated progressive.

      Maybe all that pre-Vedic tantra and mind healing rituals was just Dravidians having a phase of progressivism, not accounting for a huge group of Aryan economic migrants on their way down South.

      • Kulasekaran

        De mutta punda, Dravidians irundhadhunala thaanada aryansku religions kadachuthuda naye

      • TRASH

        S26 Weren’t the Northern Barbarians rapists and looters. Aryans were some ghastly Arab invaders, weren’t they?

        I’m not sure how advanced they could be.

        • Malla

          Aryans were not Arabs.

        • Malla

          Before the industrial revolution, smartness mattered less than location. Better grain growing ability of your land, more likely to have civilisation. that explains why the earliest civilisations started near river systems. Nile, Indus etc… More grains means a part of your population can be ‘allowed’ to do ‘unproductive’ work such as philosophy. Populations living in hard conditions would have to spend a large portion of their time gathering the basics of life even if they had high IQ. IQ started mattering more after the Industrial revolution.

      • Malla

        The Germans, Julius Ceaser came cross had a lot of equality of both genders.

      • Malla

        “Reading into the Vedas and the Upanishads, as a way to understand ancient Hindu society makes little to no sense”
        Makes a lot of sense actually. We see a lot of correlation on the practical lives of Hindus today and those books.

        • S26

          Sure, it makes about as much sense as putting a pic of a gorilla on the left and a European model on the right and saying “See can’t you see the difference between a aboriginal Indian (ASI) and a Punjabi (ANI)”

          Any real or perceived correlation between any Hindu text and the present or the past, is pure fitting to claim legitimacy. It is so obvious, that I’m surprised not a single statistician has written about it. Many kings in the past tried to find legitimacy through trying to relate to mythological figures, and trying to model their society on the religious interpretations of Brahmins. Even Gupta (about whom you wrote) wanted to stamp out inter caste marriage at the whim of a Brahmin. The invading Mughals found it convenient to let Hindus live in their inefficient religiously divided society, and the British actually assumed themselves to be the cream of this scriptural madness Hindu Varna system. This itself shows how absolutely useless most of the Hindu social system is.

          Heck, even modern Hindus, irrespective of caste give a big Agra-sized shit about astrology and other pseudo-science when it comes to everything from business to buying a flat. This doesn’t make the Vedas a historical document, it just means these people aren’t using their brains. Though, there is some kind of justice for lower castes in all this. After all, due to this excessive fitting of behavior to suit the “ideal” Hindu society, the only respected Brahmin is a religious pandit. No one really seems to respect those doctor, government and business Brahmins anymore.

      • Santhosam

        De mutta punda s26, vedic has nothing to do with Dravidian. Vedic is regressive compared to the advanced civilisation dravidians have created. Malla is right history is full of northern people conquering andsubjugating the south. Germanic equivalent is very interesting and might see come connection here. uTherinje pesu illana sootha moodu.

        • TRASH

          GORA QUESTION If Tamil Dravidian civilizations were in fact so advanced, why did a small group of Ukrainian herders or Iranian nomads manage to impose such a powerful social system on Dravidian people who outnumbered them 100,000 to 1 AND why is North India now the seat of political, financial and media power in India?

          Chennai is a fairly unimportant part of India as is Cochin. Bangalore has some IT significance but of course this was through foreign investment.

          …WHY?

  14. TRASH

    MALLA Assuming you are from Northern India you would have the best opinion of where exactly the Aryans came from.

    Was it Russia.

    Brahmin do not LOOK Arab. They look like a European with darker skin. Where are these folks originally from?

    • Malla

      I am not North Indian, I am from middle India actually (neither North nor South). It seems the Aryans came from Central Asia/Ukraine from the Kurgan culture but more research is needed.

      • TRASH

        I’ve never been anywhere in the middle of India although I am a Gora who worked for a time in Kerala and lived in Andheri, Mumbai.

        But indeed Aryan castes seem to have less trouble integrating into a Western country.

        Ukraine is a long way from Central Asia, however. Exactly why the Aryans left Eastern Europe and began a long trek Southeast is interesting.

        In any event higher-castes are OBVIOUSLY Europeans of some type or another.

        • Malla

          Andheri, Mumbai which is in Maharastra state is middle of India, neither North nor South. I lived in Mumbai for some years in Kandevali, which is north of Andheri.

        • Malla

          Also this
          https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sintashta_culture
          The Sintashta culture, also known as the Sintashta-Petrovka culture[1] or Sintashta-Arkaim culture,[2] is a Bronze Age archaeological culture of the northern Eurasian steppe on the borders of Eastern Europe and Central Asia, dated to the period 2100–1800 BCE.[3] The culture is named after the Sintashta archaeological site, in Chelyabinsk Oblast, Russia. The earliest known chariots have been found in Sintashta burials, and the culture is considered a strong candidate for the origin of the technology, which spread throughout the Old World and played an important role in ancient warfare.[4] Sintashta settlements are also remarkable for the intensity of copper mining and bronze metallurgy carried out there, which is unusual for a steppe culture.[5]
          …..snip…..

          The people of the Sintashta culture are thought to have spoken Proto-Indo-Iranian, the ancestor of the Indo-Iranian language family. This identification is based primarily on similarities between sections of the Rig Veda, an Indian religious text which includes ancient Indo-Iranian hymns recorded in Vedic Sanskrit, with the funerary rituals of the Sintashta culture as revealed by archaeology.[16] There is however linguistic evidence of a list of common vocabulary between Finno-Ugric and Indo-Iranian languages. While its origin as a creole of different tribes in the Ural region may make it inaccurate to ascribe the Sintashta culture exclusively to Indo-Iranian ethnicity, interpreting this culture as a blend of two cultures with two distinct languages is a reasonable hypothesis based on the evidence.[17]

    • Malla

      Here this will give you some answer about the source of these Aryans
      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kurgan_hypothesis

  15. Malla

    This is very interesting, many lower caste peoples and tribals have started rejecting Hindu gods and have started worshiping their own ancient gods (who are demons in Hinduism). Check out the speech from the Indian Parliament by Smiti Irani who was the education minister from the Hindu right winged BJP. Note: ST, SC, OBC, Dalit are the lower castes/ tribals.

    Especially check from 2.02 to 3.22
    Durga is a goddess in Hinduism and Mahishasura is a demon but many forest tribals and lower castes believe that he was an ancient king of their people. There is a very popular Durga festival every year.
    It seems some lower caste people started worshiping demon Mahishasura and some Hindu right wing guys objected and it seems there was trouble between both the groups.

    • TRASH

      I sense a great deal of Dravidian anger at the Ukrainian/Central Asian so-called Aryan higher castes of India from Tamils and South Indians in general.

      This reached a head when a Tamil woman blew herself up and killed Gandhi’s son-that is Aryan/Dravidian tension at its worst.

      Low-castes have already walked out of the Indian system anyhow (Most seem to want South India to be a separate country which sort of makes sense). Many converted to Christianity or Islam.

      Lower to middle-lower caste Hindus are the right wing folks who are liable to bellow national pride to a Gora on a train.

      Brahmin are too refined and educated while Khatris are too likely to be doing business.

      So the real ignorance is with the same old “right-wing” types you meet anywhere.

      • Malla

        Genetically there is no Aryan Dravidian divide anymore, we are all mixed. Aryans always got access to the local woman and much later the upper caste Hindus (who are themselves a mix of both) found ways to bonk lower caste women under some pretexts like Devdasi system (temple women from lower castes who were bonked by the priests regularly). Until the Gupta period mixing was rife and only after that era did inter caste mixing stop except the various methods upper castes guys (More Caucasoid less Australoid) used to bonk lower caste (more Australoid less Caucasoid) women under some pretext. So in India basically everybody is mixed genetically.
        There is a divide in language however.

        • TRASH

          MALLA A Gora can see quite a difference between a Kashmir Brahmin and Kerala Nair, truthfully. If they share DNA, its awfully small.

          I’d be surprised if Brahmin actually impregnated a great many low-caste women but if they did I doubt these children then joined the ranks of Brahmin.

          Gupta was a Bengali and Bengali Indians seem to have a great deal of Asian blood.

          What is so interesting is that the Parsee wanted nothing to do with anybody through all these thousand years of genetic mixing. To this day they are Iranian.

        • TRASH

          MALLA A Gora can spot the difference between a Kashmir Brahmin (Or Muslim) and Kerala Nair or Tamil on sight.

          It LOOKS like a Big Divide.

          I can generally tell a caste from low to high in 20 seconds, as can most whites.

          Apart from the fact that the Baniya wears nicer clothes and is educated, there are facial and body structure differences.

        • Malla

          “I’d be surprised if Brahmin actually impregnated a great many low-caste women but if they did I doubt these children then joined the ranks of Brahmin.”
          After a period in Indian history, these children of mixed matings were never allowed into the ranks of the Brahmins, they retained their mother’s caste.
          I never claimed that all Indians are the same. But all Indians have atleast some Caucasian or Australoid ancestry. Even Kashmiri Pandits will have some Australoid genes while the lowest castes of South India have some Caucasoid genes. It is just that more North West you go in the subcontinent, or more upper caste you go, the people are more Caucasoid. More South you go and mor elower caste you go, population becomes more Australoids. Indian subcontinent is not USA or a South Africa. It is more closer to Brazil/Mexico.

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