Genes and the Out of India Theory of Indo-European

An Indian nationalist named Kazim writes:

Out of India theory is quite possible and its pretty much can be proven by DNA.

Haplogroup R1a (Y-DNA) which is carried by most Eastern Europeans [Slavs] originated in South Asia, in modern day Indian states Uttar Pradesh and Punjab [ including Pakistan] and Highest frequencies are for it in found in India and Eastern Europe and certain population of Western Europe..

R1a in South Asia has the highest level of diversity of Y-STR haplotype variation within R1a1a compared to Eastern or Western Europe.

Haplogroup R1b (Y-DNA) Which is carried by most Western Europeans originated in Western Asia [ in Anatolia modern day Turkey] and also has high frequencies among certain Central Asian Turkic population and Hazara population of Afghanistan.

Also both DNA are found in low frequencies in Central Asia unlike in South Asia and Eastern Europe.

I don’t see what R-1b has to do with the argument, other than a suggestion that the actual homeland of Indo-European is in Anatolia, a controversial theory that I believe in.

R1a appears to have originated in the I-E Urhmeit of Southern Russia and the Southern Urals. A main branch went to North India with the Aryans. The reason their levels are so high is not because IE originated in India but due to a founder effect of large numbers of the original R1a group going to North India. A lesser group went to the Slavic regions, so they also have some R1a.

The Out of India theory of IE is so preposterous that it is rejected by all academics working in the field. A major journal’s decision to publish an issue on the theory met with widespread protest for publicizing a nonsensical theory.

28 Comments

Filed under Afghanistan, Anthropology, Asians, East Indians, Eurasia, Europe, Europeans, Genetics, India, Physical, Race/Ethnicity, Regional, South Asia, South Asians, Turkey

28 responses to “Genes and the Out of India Theory of Indo-European

  1. Kazim

    Its from National Geographic Genealogy Project which was done in 2009.

    They cant be wrong and I’m not a nationalist.

    R1b Originated in Anatolia which is carried by Western Europeans not R1a originated in South Asia and you can rant all you about them accepting the theory or not but its pretty much bound to change the origin of Indian Aryans is in India.

    • No sane person believes that R1a originated in India. It’s only high there due to a founder effect.

      No sane person believes that the Aryans are native to India. All sensible scholars agree that the Aryans moved into India from Southern Russia. There’s not even any debate on it anymore, the argument is finished, over. The only people who reject the Aryan Migration theory and who promote the IE Out of India theory are Indian nutcases. Almost all of them are Indian nationalists and Hindutvas. This theory has no acceptance outside of these circles.

      • Kazim

        Yes these “Aryans” who were magical nordic people who rode on unicorns and rainbows and all the way to India and Middle East hahaha

        Genetic results over weights your unwanted opinion.

        • sojournertroof

          No!! First they would dress up in their Teutonic wear with animal skins and horned helmets marauding villages, committing acts of barbarism and outright cannabalism, then they would change into “Aryan” clothes and “civilize” all the inferior cultures.

        • Wade in MO

          “Yes these “Aryans” who were magical nordic people who rode on unicorns and rainbows and all the way to India and Middle East hahaha ”

          Ahh yess, the common “u iz uh rayciss” “refutation”. I don’t know anyone who claims that IE came from Scandinavia, so the idea that Robert is making some nordicist claim is ridiculous. Besides, the aryans were, and are real. Today they’re called Iranians.

        • Kazim

          ” I don’t know anyone who claims that IE came from Scandinavia, so the idea that Robert is making some nordicist claim is ridiculous.”

          ALOT of White Nationalists do.

          “Besides, the aryans were, and are real. Today they’re called Iranians”

          They are part of Indo European family but the origin of Aryans is not in Iran they carry low frequencies of R1a which is Indo European maker with origin in South Asia and found mostly among South Asias and Eastern Europeans.

          They dint even use the word “Arya” until Zoroastrian which came after Hinduism and Buddhism.

      • Kazim

        Oh P.S

        Im neither Nationalist or Hindu I’m Indian and Muslim.

  2. nazbol

    Rob, you wrote that R1b is the old Europeans and R1a are the invading Aryans. Since they are both R1, they can’t be that different can they? Does that mean west Europeans are older than east Euorpeans (R1a)? What about haplogroup I, which was in Europe way before R1a or R1b was in there?

    • I don’t know the answers to your questions.

    • Kazim

      Both R1a and R1b ancestor R1 Y-DNA has origins in Asia [Central Asia or South Asia].

      R1a is older than R1b.

      Haplogroup I is as old as R1 and is probably native to Southern Europe.

      Its funny how Robert Lindsay claims “Aryans” came from Southern Russia. Ethic groups from Caucasus regions [ Georgians ] dont speak Indo European language and yet they are “surrounded” by Indo European speakers from all sides. Yet they speak Kartvelian languages which is unrelated to Indo-European language family.

      • Kazim

        + There are far more Non Indo-European speakers in Europe than they are outside of Europe like Finnish, Estonian, Hungarian, Basque, Gerogian, Sami, Maltese [Medi Islands].

        Before Indo Europeans arrived in Europe Germanic was of a non-Indo-European Finnic origin. There are far more Non-Indo-European Influence among Indo European speakers in Europe than there are in South and Central Asia.

      • Wade in MO

        “Ethic groups from Caucasus regions [ Georgians ] dont speak Indo European language and yet they are “surrounded” by Indo European speakers from all sides”

        So everyone in the Caucasus is Georgian? Have you ever heard of Armenia?

        • Kazim

          As you can see i clearly stated Georgians and did not mention Armenians or Azeri’s for a reason but clearly North and Western Caucasus is Non-Indo-European and clearly stated they are surrounded by Indo-European Speakers.

          North Caucasus comprises:
          Chechnya, Ingushetia, Dagestan, Adyghea, Kabardino-Balkaria, Karachai-Cherkessia, North Ossetia, Krasnodar Krai, Stavropol Krai

          None of these Languages are Indo European and they are neighbors to Russia so the point of origin of Indo European from Southern Russia is not very supportive.

          Also the point of R1b being origin of Indo Europeans is not very supportive either simply because R1a which is first Indo European maker is older than R1b that originated in Anatolia.

          R1a originated in South Asia while R1b originated in Western Asia.

  3. Icarus

    Haplogroup R originated in North India/Af-Pak. R1a and R2 as well. R1b originated further west. This is not a fringe theory – just look at the wiki page – they arrived at these conclusions after a common consensus was reached among contributors well versed in the field of genetics. Only racists cling on to the ‘Aryan’ invasion theory. Little do they know that Aryans are North Indians and Persians. Europeans today are descendants of outcasts and gypsies from India. It’s no wonder that their whole history is based on lies and deceit.

  4. Icarus

    From Wikipedia:
    South Asian origin hypothesis

    An increasing number of studies have found South Asia to have the highest level of diversity of Y-STR haplotype variation within R1a1a. On this basis, while several studies have concluded that the data is consistent with South Asia as the likely original point of dispersal (for example, Kivisild et al. (2003), Mirabal et al. (2009) and Underhill et al. (2009)) a few have actively argued for this scenario (for example Sengupta et al. (2005), Sahoo et al. (2006), Sharma et al. (2009). A survey study as of December 2009, including a collation of retested Y-DNA from previous studies, makes a South Asian R1a1a origin the strongest proposal amongst the various possibilities.[2]

    Most discussions purportedly of R1a origins are actually about the origins of the dominant R1a1a (R-M17 or R-M198) sub-clade. Data so far collected indicates that there two widely separated areas of high frequency, one in South Asia, around Indo-Gangetic Plain, and the other in Eastern Europe, around Poland and Ukraine. The historical and prehistoric possible reasons for this are the subject of on-going discussion and attention amongst population geneticists and genetic genealogists, and are considered to be of potential interest to linguists and archaeologists also.

    In 2009, several large studies of both old and new STR data[39] concluded that while these two separate “poles of the expansion” are of similar age, South Asian R1a1a is apparently older than Eastern European R1a1a, suggesting that South Asia is the more likely locus of origin.[40]

  5. Icarus

    Rob – you FAIL.

    • Bye Icarus, you’re banned.

      • Peter Aryan

        I believe a more appropriate name than Southern Russia would be the Caucuses. I am unsure where the Aryans originated from, but the Caucuses and Central Asia seem likely as several Iranic groups resided there.
        Good Day.

      • Paul Miller

        Wow every time someone comes up with a rational argument supported by evidence, you just ban them instead of responding…Whatever happened to Socratic discussion? Real mature…

        • There are no rational arguments for the Out of India theory of IE languages. It is like arguing that the Earth is flat. It’s nonsense. I only ban on hostile tone, not on disagreement.

          And I am banning you on hostile tone.

          HAND!

  6. Uncle Milton

    To Kazim:

    R1a originated in South Asia while R1b originated in Western Asia.

    I am in the R1a haplogroup and gotten on some websites and have matches ( shared male relative going back 1000 to 2000 years ago..) with people in India and a grave site in Northern Mongolia dating back 2000 years. I have read on some websites that R1A originated in what is now Iran and on others that it originated in Pakistan/India.

    FWIW:
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_R_(Y-DNA)

    • nazbol

      What’s your ethnicity that you’re R1a? Are you Slavic? I’d love to know my Y-DNA. I hope its not E3b, J1, or J2, if you know what I mean…

    • Kazim

      No it originated Northern South Asia mainly [ Uttaranchal, Punjab, Himachal Pradesh, Uttar Pradesh] in India and Pakistan considering only they have hight frequencies of it and its quite rare in Iranic ethnic groups but has high frequencies among Indics ethnic groups.

      Also the link you give me clearly puts a pressure on Indian and Pakistani origin due to Origin and high frequencies in this region.

      From what i think these people originated in Himalayan rages.

      P.S im R1a too.

  7. Ganesh Sharma

    Proof of Aryan migration out of India .

    In a treaty between the Hittites and the Mitanni in 1700BC near Syria Turkey border(clay tablets are excavated thee), Indic deities Mitra, Varun. a, Indra, and N¹asatya (Asvins) are invoked. A text by a Mitannian named Kikkuli uses words such as aika (eka, one), tera (tri, three), panza (panca, ¯ve), satta (sapta, seven), na (nava, nine), vartana (vartana, round). Another text has babru (babhru, brown), parita (palita, grey), and pinkara (pi _ ngala, red). Their chief festival was the celebration of visuva (solstice) very much like in India. It is not only the kings who had Sanskrit names; a large number of other Sanskrit names have been unearthed in the records from the area
    But is this language Indo-Iranian, Iranian or Indo-Aryan or to rephrase: did the Mittanis speak the PIE branch of India.? That matter was settled in 1960 by Paul Thime

    There are several reasons, but to be brief, I shall only give three: 1. the deities Indra,Mitra, Varun.a, and Nasatya are Indian deities and not Iranian ones, because in Iran Varun.a is unknown and Indra and Nasatya appear as demons; 2. the name Vasukhani makes sense in Sanskrit as a “mine of wealth” whereas in Iranian it means “good mine” which is much less likely; 3. satta, or sapta, for seven, rather than the Iranian word hapta, where the initial `s’ has been changed to `h’
    According to H. Jacobi (who believed that the Mittanis came from India), since the worship of Vedic deities was happening in 14th century Mittani kingdom, it would have happened in India much earlier. Jamna Das Akhtar and P.E.Dumont thought that the dates were even earlier[

    In fact there are many arguments in support of. Archaeologists have not found Central Asian, Eastern European or Caucasian culture in the Mittani kingdom. At the time same time they found the peacock motif — something which could have come from India.

    Burchard Brentjes argued that Indo-Aryans were settled in the Near East much before 1600 B.C.E.With all the trading relations between various parts of India and the Near East, dating as far back as 4000 BCE with the find of cotton in Dhuwelia and carnelian bead in Mesopotamia in the third millennium BCE, the migration of Indo-Aryans is not a fantasy tale.

    Here,those some fraudulence historians try to twist the detail on Mittanis as they one the way to India.Unless,if they came from India,how Mittanis Aryans would have Peacock their royal emblem as Peacock is not present West or any area as notable bird.

    As per their argument,those Aryans known previously had mysterious vision of flora and fauna of the area which they going to settle.
    Mittanis celebrating Visuvu which is celebrated still in India.

    Mittanis are Harappans who migrated out of India due complete drying of Saraswathi river in 1900BC,in 200 years they reached near Turkey as they are moving as a settlement by conquering new areas.
    See,how modern discovery of dried Saraswathi river details exactly as said in the Rigveda and related details of dried river, forced migration of Aryans as a big wave,well fit with findings outside India.

  8. How is R1A rare in Iranic peoples? Pashtuns are supposed to be amongst the highest carriers. And it’s visible in mongoloid Central Asia due to the Scythians and Samaritans who lived there before the Turks spread across there. Scythians and Samaritans were both Iranic peoples, not Indo-Aryan

  9. Sujay Rao Mandavilli

    THE OUT OF INDIA THEORY IS unworkable. acculturation is the key

    please find all my six papers [edit]

    The Demise of the Dravidian, Vedic and Paramunda Indus myths

    I am publishing my sixth research paper directly online as it is an extension of my previous papers. Kindly read pages 4 to 18 as it contains a detailed discussion of the term ‘Aryan’. This paper shows why the Dravidian, Vedic and Paramunda Indus theories are not tenable.

    Methods to reconstruct the languages of the Harappans were presented in the present and previous papers. We hope other scholars take up the exercise of reconstructing the languages of the Indus Valley civilization!

    The older papers were written taking the assumptions of the 19th century school of Indology as a base and working backwards. These may appear to be outdated now (at the end of our very long journey). However, the fundamentals are still correct.

    Part one

    Part Two very,very important!

    (These comprise the complete and comprehensive solution to the Aryan problem)

    for those who have trouble reading part two in the above link use the link below: part one http://www.docstoc.com/docs/25880426/Sujay-NPAP-Part-One part two (very important) http://www.docstoc.com/docs/25865304/SUJAY-NPAP-Part-Two Literacy in pre-Buddhist India (before 600 BC)

    Literacy in pre-Buddhist India (before 600 BC)

    Please find my collection of papers on literacy in Pre-Buddhist India

    Before mature phase of Indus valley civilization (before 2600 BC)

    – There are some potters marks but none qualify as full writing

    Indus valley civilization (2600 BC to 1900 BC)

    1. The reconfirmation and reinforcement of the Indus script thesis (very logical and self explanatory paper)

    2. The reintroduction of the lost manuscript hypothesis (the case for this thesis has obviously become much stronger in the recent past)

    Post-Harappan India (1600 BC to 600 BC)

    1. Literacy in post-Harappan india (obviously literacy in post-Harappan India existed in certain pockets & were limited to very small sections of society- alphabetic scripts were brought from West Asia and the Indus script also continued – this a very logical and self-explanatory paper and anyone can cross-verify the conclusions)

    Sujay Rao Mandavilli

  10. Genius is the person who accept even a stupidest idea and not that who rejects any idea opposing his own view.

    This is Indian system of learning. It may help you in your further writings.

    Thanks.

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