The Out of India Model for Indo-European

Related to “There was no Aryan Invasion” folks, mostly Hindu nationalists and Indian nationalists.

Out of India Model. Unfortunately, the Wikipedia page makes it seem somewhat plausible. It’s not. Not plausible, that is. It’s nonsense. Indo-European speakers did not come out of India. India is not the homeland of the Indo-Europeans. The true homeland is in far southern Russia north of the Caucasus, or, even better, in Anatolia.

This is what really happened: an Indo-Aryan migration. Read through that piece and it becomes quite clear that this is what really happened. Part of the problem is with the word invasion. There was no invasion. They just moved in.

Michael Witzel, a Sanskritist, has been in the forefront of attacking the Out of India model. Here is a good page savaging most of their arguments. He takes apart one of their leader proponents, N. Kazanas of Greece, a guy who is little more than a dilettante. It takes a little while to get through this stuff as it’s a bit heavy going, but I was able to do it. Once you do it, the Out of India Theory lies in ruins.

One of the OOI arguments is that Indo-Aryan peoples have no memory of a migration. But who does anyway? Most IE peoples do not remember their obvious migrations either. Romans said they came from Troy. This is a lie. Gypsies say they came from Egypt. Fiction.

Here is an argument against an Indo-Aryan incursion:

we have an archaeologically attested culture of many centuries if not millennia with undoubted literacy but without any traces of religious texts, legal codes, scientific works and even simple secular fables (except most laconic legends on indecipherable seals), and, in quick succession, even as the older culture declines, an intrusive illiterate people with no archaeological attestation at all who yet produce within a few centuries (according to the AIT) all the literature that was missing from the previous culture.

This is a unique situation that makes little sense.

However, this very thing happened in Greece. First, a Minoan cult, a Helladic civilization, but no literary texts, then, in a few centuries, then, within a few centuries, an explosion of literature, poetry, religion, philosophy, the Homeric texts, etc. Further, it does not produce “all the literature that was missing from the previous civilization. It produces new literature at a very rapid pace – see the Yayoi invasion of Japan from Korea and the rapid replacement of the Jomon culture for something similar.

Another argument is that archeologically, the record of civilization in India is continuous – that is, there is no obvious disruption dating from an Aryan invasion. However, as a general rule, culture, archeologically, is continuous in all parts of the world. Culture is continuous in Europe too, and we know full well that Indo-Europeans took over and supplanted earlier groups. Is there a record of this takeover culturally? Well no, but it happened.

However, keep in mind that horses and chariots showed up with the Indo-Aryans and were not found in India previously. OOI folks say silly things like, “Egyptians had chariots too” (Point being?). Anyway, horses and chariots did not develop in India. They came down from the steppes with the I-A speakers.

Surely if OOI is true than Sanskrit would be the most ancient IE language. It’s not at all. It only goes back 3,500 years too. The Anatolian branch may well date back 8,000 years.

If OOI is true than borrowings from other Indian languages such as Dravidian and Munda would be found in all branches of IE, no? But of course they are only found in Indic, which we would expect if Indic speakers migrated into India and not out of it.

Going back to pre-Indo-Aryan times, paleontologists find differences between bones even between Mohenjo Daro and Harappa. Also, there are no I-A bones found here. Of course not. Aryans will not show up for 1000’s of years.

Yes, Harappans built wheels, but they built no spoke-wheeled chariot. This came only with the Aryans. OOI folks have no explanation for this.

Indeed, Aryan chariots are built from woods from the Punjab plain, not wood from say the steppes. But this is not a valid OOI argument. Invaders always use whatever is available. Aryan immigrants brought chariot technology with them from the steppes. To make chariots in their new homeland, they used local wood. This is surprising?

45 Comments

Filed under Anatolian, Ancient Greece, Anthropology, Antiquity, Asia, Asian, Culture, Dravidian, Ethnic Nationalism, Eurasia, Europe, History, India, Indic, Indo-European, Indo-Hittite, Indo-Iranian, Indo-Irano-Armenian, Indo-Irano-Armeno-Hellenic, Language Families, Linguistics, Nationalism, Paleontology, Political Science, Regional, Russia, Sanskrit, Scholarship, South Asia

45 responses to “The Out of India Model for Indo-European

  1. Shawn

    As long as we are talking about “out of…”

    VIA AMREN:

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/middleeast/israel/8227204/Did-the-first-humans-come-out-of-Middle-East.html

    “Out of Africa” takes a big hit.

  2. Wade in MO

    I think “Out of India” will be the “blaque gypshunz” for a new generation. Thanks 1960s political correctness.

  3. Sojourner Troof

    Look, can you Teutonic, horn helmetted, loin cloth wearing mud caked, buggering, blue eyed bearded rune worshipping, no written history, cannibalistic, barbarian bastards just deal with the fact that you destroyed ancient Rome, plunged the civilized world into the Dark Ages with attendant ignorance pestilence, disease and death, and stop trying to take credit for the great and glorious ancient Mediterrean and Eastern cultures such as Greece, Rome, Persia and India. I know its hard for you to fathom that these raven haired swarthy bastards accomplished so much beauty and splendor in ancient times while your ancestors were rolling around in their own feces for fun but you are going to have to live with it, Barbie was nowhere to be found in India stupid. Fuck the National Geographic Pashtun 12 year old chick with the big green eyes, she’s an anomaly, sure there are a few clear eyed cuties here and there around Pakistan but that doesnt prove shit, there are plenty of dark swarthy bastards in Scotland, does that mean there was a Persian invasion? When you posited these theories about an “Aryan” invasion of India did you bother to ask the Indians? They laugh at your “me too” claims, did you stop to consider why there are no fucking blondes in India or people with freckles (maybe one out of a million probably a product of some Limey bastard) You fuckers destroyed Rome and fucked the world over for 1000 years, and you were rightly tagged with the label Barbarians for it, you German cunts have to live with your destructive past, no amount of glory hogging will cure that.

    • That does it, you’re banned.

      HAND.

      • Dave Coe

        it must be the same profile that keeps getting banned the last couple of days.

      • Sojourner Troof is too emotional and simplistic. The proto-IndoEuropean homeland is adjacent and northwards from an swath between the Black and Caspian Seas, a very large area, at least a 1000 miles east to west and possible and long north to south up into southern Russia and the Ukraine. The landscape was varried from forested steppeland to grasslands, to arid steppes to snowy mountains and temperate forest. We know it was an area that had snow, the PIE snow and it reflexes show up in virtually all IE languages, there are many other examples too.
        Robert is right, the OOI is wrong.
        Anatolian is a possibility but I agree with thr first-mentioned, the Kurgan hypothesis.

    • Wade in MO

      Well, Sonigger Troof is just another example of the dipshits walking around modern america.

    • Niren

      And how to you explain the Tocharians of China who spoke an Indo-European language similar to Sanskrit but looked like Nordics and wore Celtic like clothing? How do you explain the fact that ON AVERAGE (that means not all of them) upper caste Indians (especially groups like the Kokanastha Brahmins or Maithili Brahmins) tend to be lighter skinned and have stronger Caucasian features than lower caste Indians. I have seen lower caste Indians who look fair and many upper caste Indians especially the Tamil Brahmins who look dark but that is because there has been mixing despite the caste system. How can you explain the fact that in Indian languages tribals are called ‘Adivasi’ which means aboriginal, in other words these North Indian speakers displaced the tribals. Can you explain the fact that in India there are no tribal group speaking an Indo-European language surrounded by Dravidian speakers while the reverse is true in many cases? How can you explain that the Soma herb from which ‘Somrass’ was made, a drink celebrated in the earliest parts of the Rig Vedas is only found in Central Asian and is not native to India at all. Most inventions involve Northerners invading and conquering Southerners, live with it, though there have been many reverse cases.
      As far as the Romans were concerned, Rome had already decayed way before the Germanic invasion. Besides you also forget that the Ostrogoths did a great job or recreating Roman culture which the commanders of the invading Constantinople army observed. And if you hate Germans and Northern Europeans in general so much, stop using their inventions. No telephones, air travel, automobiles, human usable electricity, anti-biotics, Medical equipments, anything which uses transistors, television etc… hell stop using the computer you are using to spread your hate which stems from insecurity and jealousy.

      • SoTrooferJourn

        Okay so then stop using the Guitar -an Arab instrument, Ha Ha Ha, No more Rock and Roll!! Cultural insecurity and jealousy is a Nordic phenomenon, without a glorious past to call their own they invented the whole Aryan invasion theory to lay claim to the glories of yet another one of the great Non-Nordic civilizations of the past as they had attempted to do with Rome, Greece, Persia, Egypt. Yes, these are all Caucasian people, but they are NOT NORDIC. These claims led one sensible American observer, M.W. Fodor writing in The Nation in 1936 , that racialised Germanic nationalism arose from an inferiority complex:
        “No race has suffered so much from an inferiority complex as has the German. National Socialism was a kind of Coué method of converting the inferiority complex, at least temporarily, into a feeling of superiority.” Hitler even had his eugenicists measuring skulls in China to prove a link, how could these little people build this Great Wall after all. This is because Nordic and Celtic had a very primitive early society, and were historically blamed for brutality and ignorance that existed for centuries in Europe following the fall of Rome bearing the brunt of being labeled Barbarian cultures for centuries. As they became more Latinized and therefore civilized after The Renaissance, which flourished in Italy but which we should largely give credit to Spanish Arabs and the great work of the great Arab scholar Averroes (Ibn Rushd) who reintroduced Aristotelean reason in the translation centers in Cordoba, Germanic peoples increasingly adopted Latin culture (the language of music is Italian for exampe), going so far as to calling themselves the Holy Roman Empire in the 16th C. Following another rash of German agression in 19th C. post Napoleonic Europe leading to WWI coupled with the British (Germans really) imperialist excesses in India and Africa, the Barbarism rap started making its rounds once again. That is when Nordicists felt it convenient to lay claim to the great “Aryan” civilization in India,when it is well known that the term Aryan had nothing to do with race, and although there may be some minor skin pigment diferentiation between the Dravidians of the South and Aryans of the North, this is a climatic phenomenon as they are genetically identical. Numerous genetic studies have debunked the link between Indians and Europeans, http://sites.google.com/site/r2dnainfo/R2-Home/Aryans/reasons-why-the-aryan-invasion-theory

        • Wade in MO

          Once again proving that you are just another jizz gargler who doesn’t have a fucking clue about what you’re talking about.

          “No more Rock and Roll!! ”

          If banning the guitar would rid the world of rock and roll I would be behind the ban 100 percent.

  4. Sojourner Troof

    Nordicist Crybaby

  5. Troofsetufree

    Robert, its amazing how your white contributors can make all kinds of racist remarks such as Wade ‘s “Sonigger” without getting banned, even you have made some pretty intolerant remarks such as you characterization of Mexicans in the Aztlan controversy (pretty fucking racist, I guess its a double standard but its your blog) Just quit trying to pass yourself off as an idealist liberal you are in fact a right wing white supremacist cunt and your allegedly progressive blog is nothing more than a blowhole for racist dogs like Wade, you are a hypocrite and your blog is hereby charged to be nothing more than a white supremacist hate blog ala stormfront so fuck you.

    • Well, you’re allowed to make racist remarks here. We don’t like it too much, but we won’t ban you. You’re not allowed to attack me though. Many White racists have been banned from the site for attacking me. Fine, I’m a White supremacist hate site, no problem. Seeya.

      BTW, you’re banned too.

      HAND.

    • Wade in MO

      ” your allegedly progressive blog is nothing more than a blowhole for racist dogs like Wade”

      Blah blah blah. I don’t call the other black posters on here niggers. I also spend many posts criticisizing a lot of white people. I only called you a nigger becuase you’re acting like one…NIGGER!!! The idea that the aryan invasion of india is some bullshit noridicst drivel like the germanic romans theory is just absurd. Why don’t you actually post evidence against it instead of just crying “RACIST RACIST RACIST! U BEEZ UH RACIST!!!” Next you’ll be telling us about “da Blaque ‘Gypshunz.” Fuck off.

      • I happen to be Caucasian, stupid, just not a Nordic faggot like you, you really are a racist punk who hates Blacks and not worth spending any of my time on you piece of shit.

        • Wade in MO

          I’m not nordic and I’m not a faggot like you. You are an obvious afrocentic jizz gargler even if you aren’t black.It is you who are not worth my time.

        • Bay Area Guy

          Wait a minute, aren’t you supposed to be banned?

  6. Niren

    Robert wrote
    “Indeed, Aryan chariots are built from woods from the Punjab plain, not wood from say the steppes. But this is not a valid OOI argument. Invaders always use whatever is available.”

    Good point, when the English, Spanish or say the Europeans invaded the Americas, South Africa and Australia/ New Zealand they built European like structures using local material sometimes the same material they got after destroying local structures as it was the case of Spanish like Cathedrals in Central/South America built using stone of the native Aztec/ Mayan/Inca pagan temples the Spanish destroyed. Only in rare cases were material ordered from Europe. Besides the Europeans would have adopted some native technology of the Native Americans and Maoris too. Hell even the much more so called ‘primitive’ Aboriginal Australians gave the White Aussies the boomerang. But this does not mean that it were the Native Americans, Maoris and Aboriginal Australians who colonised Europe. The Indo-European invasion of India was in many ways similar to the Spanish/ Portuguese invasion of Central/ South America except that it took place much much earlier and in this case the invaders were either proto – Slavs, proto- Anatolians or some Caucasian Central Asian people or a combination of the three. History just repeated itself.

    • Wade in MO

      ” in this case the invaders were either proto – Slavs, proto- Anatolians or some Caucasian Central Asian people or a combination of the three. History just repeated itself.”

      I would guess Iranians. The also invaded Elam.

  7. SoTrooferJourn

    Unban me you fool, how many Spics do you get with a 140 iq?

  8. India has a lot of linguistic sub-nationalism- but the truth is that large populations have probably changed their language more than once between language families such as ‘Indo-Iranian’ and ‘Dravidian’ and so on. Much depends on population dynamics and state formation which interact in pretty complex ways.
    It is likely that the development of scientific linguistics, itself, played a role in the dynamics with macaronic lingua francas splitting into two or more versions- one belonging to one family, the other to another language family.
    This can give rise to absurd situations- for e.g. siblings brought up in a single family may be registered by the census as speaking different languages!
    Similarly with gene flows- assuming a degree of preference for female hypergamy- the direction might have reversed itself many times.
    The trouble is this makes the narrative too complex to fit into kid’s history books.
    The problem Indians still face is that a mischievous sort of nexus between an opportunistic Marxism and a Holier than Thou Moral Outrage Industry
    has sought to turn Indian history into a story of ‘White/Aryan’ High Castes establishing a sort of permanent Apartheid against ‘Black’/Low Castes.
    However skin color and degree of ‘Sanskritization’ of language is a very poor predictor of Income/Status/Wealth/Power and also Caste (which is derived from Religion- and has to do with degree of Vegetarianism, whether daughters have to be given a dowry or can receive a bride price and so on).
    There is also the continuing comedy of the priestly caste- ‘Brahmins’ -being blamed for monopolizing education- despite the fact that traditional priests are a byword for ignorance and illiteracy. Moreover, pretty much ever social group has its own holy men and religious traditions.
    The politicization of this issue- especially under the rubric of affirmative action- has led to a totally schizophrenic situation where unusually fair skinned politicians- like M.G.R and Kanshi Ram- claimed to be the saviors of ‘dark skinned’ lower castes, whereas extremely dark skinned people with pronounced African features felt in their heart of hearts that they were actually ‘Whites’ because of some supposedly inherited caste status. Imagine a situation where people with the surname Smith felt superior to people with the surname Carpenter- because the great hero of the Anglo Saxons was Wieland Smith and he could beat up Karen Carpenter (from whom that caste descend) quite easily after she developed anorexia.
    Obviously, the reason such a thing would be unthinkable is because English history is well understood. Had it been conquered by the Ethiopians or the Indonesians, and one of their scholars was a nut-job who came up with the above theory- viz. that Smiths are better than Carpenters but both are outranked by people with names like ‘King’ or ‘Bishop’- then part of England’s struggle to overcome the conquest would consist in contesting the claims of that nutjob.
    In any case, so long as England has the Bible- it can rebuild itself since we all understand that Lord Jesus did not consider the fisherman inferior or superior to the publican or the priest and so on. Except, if the conqueror had misinterpreted the Bible- and decided that it proved the Carpenter was superior to the Smith or whatever- then you’d still be stuck with the problem.
    That’s what happened to the Hindu religious texts. They were interpreted to justify a rigid race based hierarchy- not so much by actual British administrators in India, but by scholars in Germany who never set foot in India.
    It is in this context that Indian opposition to the ‘Aryan Invasion theory’ should be viewed. Put simply, the theory is a recipe for the break-up of the country and an unending ‘caste’ war.

  9. Nadir

    The best terminology instead of “Indic” and “Iranian” would be Indo-Aryan or Vedic and Iranic.
    As for Anatolian languages, I’m reading that they were not a part of the IE family but rather a sister family to IE derived from pre-proto-Indo-European. Don’t know how true it is.

    • Well, there is a good case to be made for Indo-Hittite as a major family. Indo-European proper is one branch, and Anatolian is the other branch. But it’s all one family – Indo-Hittite, and that’s where IE started. Anatolian is the oldest branch at 8,000 YBP. Obviously, Indo-Hittite must have originated in Anatolia somewhere.

  10. Kazim

    Out of India theory is quite possible and its pretty much can be proven by DNA.

    Haplogroup R1a (Y-DNA) which is carried by most Eastern Europeans [slavs] originated in South Asia, in modern day Indian states Uttar Pradesh and Punjab [ including Pakistan] and Highest frequencies are for it in found in India and Eastern Europe and certain population of Western Europe..

    R1a in South Asia has the highest level of diversity of Y-STR haplotype variation within R1a1a compared to Eastern or Western Europe.

    Haplogroup R1b (Y-DNA) Which is carried by most Western Europeans originated in Western Asia [ in Anatolia modern day Turkey] and also has high frequencies among certain Central Asian Turkic population and Hazara population of Afghanistan.

    Also both DNA are found in low frequencies in Central Asia unlike in South Asia and Eastern Europe.

  11. Kazim

    Also the term “Aryan” was never in English or Western Dictionary untill Max Muller popularized the term in 1800’s and he never linked the term to define race.

    Max Muller : “I have declared again and again that if I say Aryans, I mean neither blood nor bones, nor hair nor skull; I mean simply those who speak an Aryan language in that sense, and in that sense only, do I say that even the darkest Hindus represent an earlier stage of Aryan speech and thought than the fairest Scandinavians… To me an ethnologist who speaks of Aryan race, Aryan blood, Aryan eyes and hair, is as great a sinner as a linguist who speaks of a dolichocephalic dictionary or a brachycephalic grammar.”

    “He was deeply saddened by the fact that these later came to be expressed in racist terms. This was far from Müller’s own intention. For Müller the discovery of common Indian and European ancestry was a powerful argument against racism, arguing that “an ethnologist who speaks of Aryan race, Aryan blood, Aryan eyes and hair, is as great a sinner as a linguist who speaks of a dolichocephalic dictionary or a brachycephalic grammar” and that “the darkest Hindus represent an earlier stage of Aryan speech and thought than the fairest Scandinavians”

  12. Kazim

    Iranic and Vedic tribes were enemies & both their culture and religious thoughts involved differently.

    In Vedic religion the gods are called Devas while in Zoroastrian the demons are called Devas and in Vedas the Ahuras are considered Demons while in Zoroastrian Ahura is their cheif God.

    Vedic people considered anyone beyond Indus River to be Barbarians and Non-Vedic.

    Compared to South Asia Iranian people have very low frequencies of R1a or R1b. I expected them to have High Frequncies of R1b considering its not found in South Asia. If Iranians carried R1b Haplogroup in High frequencies then it would have made Vedic and Iranic sister tribes.

  13. Sharan Kumar

    Hi!
    The comment is addressed to R.Lindsay. You say Anatolian is older than Sanskrit. I guess, you should try using the phrase ” I think”. The dating of the Rig-Veda was wrongly given as 1500 B.C to show that Indian history was only as old as the the westerners could probably trace. Please note, the Rig-Veda, going by Max Mueller, was written down in 1500 B.C. This follows an oral tradition for which no historical records exist. So, the Rig-Veda can be safely extended to 15, 000 B.C. As Max Mueller finally accepted his mistake and said whether it is 15,000 or 1500 years old, it is considerable antiquity. It is sheer European arrogance to say that Philosophy worth its salt started in Greece. Eurocentrism continues to this day in the form of Wikipedia. There is nothing wrong in saying that Indians gave the numerals and decimal number system and many more concepts such as al-gebra, geometry, triginometry and calculus. Unfortunately, economic development is a precursor to intellectual development. Once India develops, that will take some time, things can be claimed and be restored to its rightful place. Jai Hind.

    • Why you are manipulating the theory of Out of India Model. They already accept “there was no Aryan Invasion but there was only Aryan migration. It was right that the dating of Rig-Veda was wrongly given 1500 BC but as it had been confirmed by research that Rig-veda an Avesta( of Zoroastrianism) share same concept.

  14. Raja

    Robert Lindsay,

    you Western Europeans don’t really have any history, any past, so you attached like leeches to Greeks. Now when you see even Greek history as too shallow, you want to appropriate Indian history and Sanskrit. If there was no Sanskrit and no Avesta, you guys would have had no inkling at all!
    .
    Poor little white boys! No past! Does it hurt your pride that you are bastards with no ancestry and history! Why don’t you look for your history in the Hyborean age and consider the fictional guy Conan as your ancestor. Just make up anything you want.
    .
    As long as you leave all input from the Vedas and Avesta alone, you are free to manufacture anything you want!
    .
    Robert Lindsay,
    Indians cannot really help you with your inferiority complex as a civilization without any roots.
    .
    And before you start talking about slumdog Indians and all of that crap, you should know, Mohenjo-daro from IVC used to have toilets and sewers with running water.
    .
    So little white man without a past, go suffer your stupid inferiority!

  15. WesternForg

    Bastard sons of history (the typical white person) can not live with the fact they where nothing in ancient time, didnt even had a vinger in the great work of the Indians, Iranians, Greece and Roman, now tries to steal ALL of them by saying it came from Europe. Funny. Where is your evidence? I still have to witness it. Anatolie had a pre sanskrit languages? Show me the evidence!

    I feel sorry for Robert Lindsay, went to college but got the wrong study, now filling his time convincing that the Europeans where the actually innovators of the world, taking away everything the persians and Indians accomplished. Applause for the greedy white man with the big glasses.

  16. sergei

    I think this Robert Linsday guy has a identity crisis. He is not R1a1a, he looks more Africoid white, and wishes all of the ‘white’ race where Africoid, like the Anatolians are. Try a Genetics study instead of arm-chair pandering history. Look at this Gene Map and shut up and accept it. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:R1a1a_distribution.png

    you are western european. Not Eastern European and look nothing like Eastern European if anything you are a mutt with an identity crisis wishing India didn’t exist to give you that inferiority complex you have.

    You have a pug nosed, petruding jaw, and look like a monkey. Just accept it and move on. It’s just jealousy of Aryanism, which you’re africoid face lacks.

  17. raj sher

    Sure, the greeks produced literature religion philosophy and homeric texts. But the greeks also left behind epigraphic evidence a script, coins and buildings. Where is the epigraphic evidence for indo aryans except literature. Where is indo aryan currency script and buildings?.

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