Transcript of My Latest Interview July 7, 2010

Interview July 7, 2010 with Reason Radio Network. The comments at the end of the post are hostile, but the site’s audience and hosts tend to be some mixture of paleoconservatives, White nationalists and anti-Semites. That’s not exactly where I am coming from, but I will interview with anyone, and most of the Left won’t touch me with a 10-foot pole.

I’ve been looking over your blog, and we talked about these labels as in Left versus Right, and I know you were describing yourself as a liberal, but you’ve been getting people describing you as a Third Positionist. The 3rd Positionist movement is a nationalist movement, but it’s not necessarily ethnonationalism – it could just be putting your country first. But they reject both Communism and capitalism, but they could sometimes incorporate some Marxist ideas. What is your take on being described as a 3rd Positionist?

I don’t know, I’m totally confused about 3rd Positionism – I don’t really know what it is, I don’t know what they want. They’re Euros, but the 3rd Positionists of the past were fascists and Nazis. But clearly they are pretty sui generis, and they are hard to pigeonhole and understand.

It’s a difficult movement to define. They don’t have a figure like the Marxists have Karl Marx and the capitalists have Adam Smith. I know that the 3rd Positionists have been smeared by being described as fascists.

It isn’t necessarily fascism, but it is true that when the fascists came to power, they said that they were nationalists, and that they were against the Communists and the capitalists. But you could be a 3rd Positionist and you could be a civil libertarian or you could be very authoritarian. Even among 3rd Positionists, there are a lot of different nuances within the ideology.

3rd Positionism is about as hard to pin down as fascism. Fascism is hard to pin down too. The fascists said that they were against both capitalism and Communism, but they just said that to get people to go along with them. It’s always been a rightwing movement. It’s never been anti-capitalist. The Nazis had the Night of the Long Knives, and they killed all of the socialist and anti-capitalist Nazis. There was a Nazi guy who was a big 3rd Positionist hero, but I can’t remember his name (Note: Gregor Strasser).

Is it Godfrey Feder?

No.

He was their economist.

No, see, when Hitler first started out in 1921, they drafted this Set Of Principles, and they called themselves National Socialists, and they had a pretty socialist, anti-capitalist economic project. And they got a lot of support. There were people on the Left who were even going Nazi, and there people who were going back and forth between the Nazis and the Communists in the 1920’s during all of that turbulence.

And in the early 1930’s, the Nazis were getting funded by major German industrialists. They were getting funded by the corporations. This is what almost nobody knows. The German corporations were behind the Nazis all the way. That’s where they got their money.

But there were bankers funding Bolshevism too. Like Jacob Schiff helped finance the Bolshevik Revolution. So there definitely were industrialists financing both sides. But I think they just want to make a profit. War is one of the most profitable things.

Why would a banker finance Communism? The international bankers generally did not finance Communism. That’s simply not true. There’s no money in it for them! Communism is the biggest money loser in the whole world for capitalists.

But the government still needs to borrow money whether it’s Communist or capitalist. The other thing is that when the Czar was in power, he was more of an economic nationalist and he did not want to do business with these bankers, so the bankers did have some incentives for financing Bolshevism.

Those Jews like Schiff, they did not make any money at all off of Russia going Communist. It was a gigantic money loser. The whole thing with Schiff was all about Jewish ethnic politics.

Yes, because the Czar was anti-Jewish, so it was more an ethnic thing than an economic thing.

Believe me, that’s all it was – revenge on the Russians. And a lot of the Communists were Jews. It was just let’s get rid of these anti-Semites and put some pro-Jews in power. Schiff was not acting in his class interests by doing that. This whole idea of bankers funding Communism, well, hey, I’m kind of a Commie myself. I mean, I wish they would give us some money!

There weren’t any Gentile capitalists who financed Communism.

Why would they? There are a few rich people who are Communists, but that’s rare. If you study Marxism, then you understand class, and so many things that people do are based on their class interests. People have class interests. Why would a rich capitalist finance Communism? Why would I buy someone the guillotine that’s going to chop my head off? It’s totally operating against your class interests. There’s no point to it unless you’ve got some kind of ulterior motive.

They have an ulterior motive unless they are already in power. But there’s socialism in different forms. There is socialism that is directed against the rich and also it’s possible that the elites are using a form of socialism to keep down the middle class. That’s not true Marxism, but it’s selected socialism to target a different class.

I don’t agree with that sort of rightwing populism. That’s just crazy. The elites hate socialism period. But there are some elites who go against their class interests and ally with the poor because, well, maybe they grew up poor or maybe they’re just nice people. But they are basically supporting a project that is going to cut their income.

And why would they do that? I mean a few of them will, just because they’re good people or they are self-sacrificing. But in general, the rich pursue their class interests, which is to retain their wealth or increase it. And they certainly do not support projects that are going to decrease their wealth.

You don’t think that rich liberals have ulterior motives?

Rich liberals are just nice people. They’re just nice people who feel guilty, and they’re willing to give up their money and share it with others, and that’s all there is to it. They’re self-sacrificing people. They have no ulterior motives or any of that. The notion that they do is rightwing populism. It’s crazy.

But 3rd Positionism ties in with populism. You’ve heard of that label producerism is the idea, not so much Right or Left, that the middle class is being exploited on both ends by both big government and by big business, especially the banking elite.

Well…The middle class typically is exploited by the rich under capitalism. Studies have proven that under neoliberalism, which is radical capitalism, the bottom 80% of the population loses money, and the top 20% gains money. So historically the only middle classes that benefit from hardcore neoliberalism are the upper middle class. And the upper middle class typically aligns with the rich and the capitalists, the corporations.

A lot of the middle class people align with the rich, the capitalists and the corporations too, but they are not really acting in their class interests when they do that. The middle class does not understand their class interests. They want to be rich. They typically align with the rich. But it often doesn’t make much sense for them to do that.

But you said that the Left doesn’t really represent the middle class either mainly because the Left is for Open Borders. You wrote a recent article where you said both the Democrats and the Republicans, the Left and the Right, is one big Corporate Party.

In the US, that’s true because the Democratic Party isn’t really a Left party anymore. It’s sort of a rightwing party instead, and it’s all just corporate politics. They just represent the corporations, the rich and the upper middle class. The Democrats are sort of for the middle class to a greater extent than the Republicans are, but I don’t think either party is for the poor or low income people anymore. Supporting them is considered to be a total loser.

The Democrats used to be for the poor, the low income and the workers, but supposedly, that’s why they were losing elections, and that’s why they went to the DNC model. The corporate Democrats decided that this is the way to win elections – be pro-corporate, get the corporate money, beat the Republicans at their game. That’s the DNC – the Democratic National Committee, and that’s where they’re all coming out of now. Even Obama, he’s a DNC guy.

I noticed that you commented on the new American 3rd Position Party. We were discussing on our show about the pros and cons of explicit racial activism, but you mentioned on your site that the A3P is probably one of the most pro-worker and anti-corporate parties in the US.

I think that what’s interesting about that is it’s showing you that these labels about the Left and the Right don’t make a lot of sense because a lot of people might hear about the A3P and they might think of it as a rightwing party, but you were saying that you looked over their platform, and you agree with a lot of what they have to say.

Well…it’s just a sad statement on the state of affairs of the Western Left. It exemplifies the total failure of the Western Left to support the workers, especially White workers, or just workers period, the low income, the working class, the poor. Especially the Whites.

They are opposed to all of these people, and the Western Left pushes anti-White politics. They are pro-non-White. They’re pro-Hispanic, they’re pro-Black, and they’re anti-White. And when they are pushing mass immigration, that’s just a spear into the heart of the White worker…the low income, the poor and the working class Whites, who are my people…those are my people. It’s just a sad comment when these rightwingers, who are almost fascists…when the fascists are the only people who are standing up for workers anymore.

Hold on now, when you make a statement referring to them as fascists. Now you’re entitled to your opinion, but if you look at the platform, they say they’re for Constitutionalism. What specifically about the platform is fascist?

Well…I think they said something about encouraging non-White immigrants to go back to their countries. “We’ll even give them money to go home.” But there’s nothing much in there that’s specifically fascist. It’s a very moderated program. Yet they are calling themselves 3rd Positionists, and 3rd Positionist is fascist…And the A3P is explicitly pro-White in the US.

The leaders of the party are White Nationalists. Kevin MacDonald is a White Nationalist who is sympathetic to fascism and Nazism. The leader of the party (Note: William D. Johnson) is an explicit White Nationalist who called for throwing all non-Whites out of the country 20-30 years ago (Note: Book penned in 1985 under the pseudonym of James O. Pace). That’s where these people are coming from.

Those are their leaders – they are coming out of the White Supremacist movement, the White Nationalist movement, which is a pro-fascist movement in the United States. And that’s how they totally failed, because, in being pro-fascist, they have blown off the entire White racist, White supremacist – especially Southern White Supremacist – segment in the United States.

Most White racists and White Supremacists in the US of the old White Supremacist types – they hate fascism, they hate Nazism. They fought in WW2. The Southerners fought in WW2. They were slaughtered in WW2 by the Nazis.

Southerners are pro-British. Their roots are in the UK. Hitler attacked the UK. The pro-White movement in the US – the White nationalists, the White supremacists – they’re pro-Nazi, they’re pro-fascist! That is the biggest loser project! I know White people. Most White people want nothing to do with fascism or Nazism. Why does pro-White politics have to be fascist and Nazi? That’s no good. These people are losers. That’s the biggest failure in White politics right there.

The Left likes to link the Southern nationalist types with Nazism but most people don’t know this but along with Jews…White Southerners and Jews were the most gung-ho groups about fighting WW2.

My mother was present in that era and I asked her, “Well, those Southerners were racists. Wasn’t Hitler’s seen as a pro-White regime?” and she said, “Oh no! I lived during that era and everybody hated the Nazis.” There were more pro-Nazis in Pennsylvania than there were in the entire South! The only Americans who were pro-Nazi were ethnic Germans, and then after Pearl Harbor, they basically just disappeared or went underground or shut up. The Nazis had zero support in the South.

The Southern White Supremacists liked democracy. My Mom said that Americans hated the fascists because they were a dictatorship…and they were persecuting Jews. And Southerners didn’t really care anything about Jews back then. Who cares about Jews?

And the Nazis were not seen as pro-White at all. I mean every White person was pro-White back then. Why would you line up with Nazis? And the people that the Nazis were fighting were pro-White. France was pro-White. The UK was pro-White. Denmark, everyone in Europe was pro-White back in those days.

So being pro-White was the norm, but what happened was the Establishment took it up, and they tried to link being pro-White with being with Hitler. But it’s a psychological thing, because if your enemy is telling you that if you’re pro-White, you’re like Hitler, psychologically, you’re going to think, “Well, maybe Hitler wasn’t such a bad guy, and maybe I should be pro-Hitler.” Would you say that that’s the roots of it?

Well…I’m not sure, I don’t know why the pro-White movement has gotten into Nazis and fascists and all that, because I think that’s the biggest mistake they ever made. For instance, there are probably still a lot of White racists down in the South, but I don’t imagine that most of those people like Nazis or fascists.

I think it’s one faction of the White Nationalist movement that might be Nazi. But it’s a problem that it might be guilt by association because in the White Nationalist community, they are going to network together, and if one person is their friend…if they have a political associate who might say something pro-Hitler, it’s going to rub off. So you’re saying that that’s one of the biggest barriers, because groups like the ADL along with the media – they’re going to try to link anything that’s remotely pro-White with Nazism and fascism.

Well…that’s simply not true. The old White Supremacists in the South, the neo-Confederates, and there are still many, many, many Southerners who believe in this stuff, and there are even White racists all over the country who subscribe to that, and they don’t want anything to do with Nazism, and they don’t even like fascism either. So the White movement is simply insane. Why have they taken up Nazism and fascism? I don’t know.

But for 20 years after WW2, White Supremacism and White racism was going gung-ho all through 40’s, the 50’s and into the early 60’s the Civil Rights Movement. They weren’t waving Nazi flags or supporting fascism. They were pro-democracy, pro-American, pro-European, and they hated Nazis and fascists.

If you look at the A3P, they are pro-democracy and pro-Constitution, so I don’t want to smear that party because I agree with what they are doing, but you do make a legitimate point that through guilt by association…maybe someone is affiliated with someone who may have those views, but the party itself, the platform and agenda put out by the party, is a Constitutionalist party that’s for democracy and individual rights.

Yes, the A3P could hardly be called a fascist party. There’s not a whole lot of fascism around anymore. Even the European Right, the Hard Right in Europe, they’re not all that classically fascist anymore – the BNP, the British National Party – is not all that fascist, they’re democrats last time I checked. They support civil liberties. The old fascism of the 20’s, 30’s and 40’s – it isn’t really coming back.

You see, fascism mutates. Pinning down fascism is like pinning down a blob of mercury. Fascism is like a chameleon. It changes colors, it changes shapes, it can be anything. It will take on the forms of other things. Who’s that guy who wrote Babbitt? Sinclair Lewis?

He said that fascism, if it comes to the US, will be wrapped in a cross and an American flag.

Exactly. Fascism takes on whatever forms it needs to take on to get in. It’s this very weird movement that’s very, very difficult to study, to define. They’ve been studying it since the 1920’s, and there’s some really good literature coming out in recent years – a lot of it can be found on a blog called Orcinus. There are some excellent pieces there that talk about something called “pseudo-fascism.”

Some of the top research right now on fascism is coming out of Political Science departments. They are trying to exactly figure out…what it is! Because…nobody…really knows…what fascism is! And the fascists are experts are concealing their motives, at lying, at not calling themselves fascists, at calling themselves anti-fascists.

You talked about Sinclair Lewis, well, Huey Long, who was a popular political figure in the US in the 1930’s, he said that fascism will return to the US, but perhaps under the title of anti-fascism.

That’s what they do. I’ve seen fascists on the Net, and they called their enemies fascists! It’s really weird and confusing. If you hang around Usenet sites that have a lot of fascists, after a while, your mind starts spinning around, and you start wondering if you are a fascist yourself. And they try to convert you to their movement.

They are like these shape-shifting forms that change into these other things and say all this contradictory stuff, and they’re just all over the place. They’re sneaky, and they’re tricksters, and mainly they confuse you. They confuse people, and that’s how they get people to support their project because often people don’t really know what they are supporting. They’re not up front about their aims – that’s another aspect of fascism. It’s basically a popular movement against the Left.

And populism can be a good thing, but fascism, it is an ultra-authoritarian movement. So I don’t think that being a racist automatically makes you a fascist. Even if you are a White Supremacist, one aspect of fascism that is essential to it is a reliance on a totalitarian form of government.

Well…certainly that is true, and all of those old-style racists in the US, and especially in the South, they’re anti-fascists! They hate fascism, they hate Nazism, and this crazy pro-White movement has blown all these people off by cheering on fascists and Nazis. What’s the matter with them? I don’t get it. For some reason, Hitler is held up as a hero of the White race. No he wasn’t! Hitler probably killed more White people than anyone in the 20th Century. What kind of hero is that?

Hitler did kill millions of White people, possibly even more than Stalin. I don’t get it. I think it’s just psychological where the enemies of people who are pro-White, they keep labeling pro-Whites as Nazis, and then they end up taking that label. Because when someone keeps calling you something, psychologically, you take up that label.

Well…that might be part of it. You call a man a thief enough, and eventually he might start stealing. “Well, if you’re going to call me a thief anyway, I might as well just start stealing.” And with the White Supremacists, since the 60’s, there’s been a total war on White racism coming out of the anti-racist movement. And that’s one thing the anti-racists have done really well – we pathologized racism, in particular, White racism, because, well…White racism is nasty, it has a bad history, and most White people don’t want to be racists anymore!

I think most Whites are racist in minor ways, but hardcore White racism has been so pathologized that most Whites will not take extreme, explicit racist stances anymore. So the only people out there taking explicitly pro-White stances are people who are so crazy that they don’t even care.

So it further stigmatized it so there’s no room for a healthy or more moderate pro-White movement.

There are no moderate pro-White movements!

Well, Pat Buchanan, he seems to have the best model because he basically is pro-White. He writes in his book, Death to the West that he does have a strong preference for White culture, and he laments the demographic change. But he’s able to appeal to a lot of people that White Nationalists can’t, and he has a following among conservatives where even people who are not White can admire him.

Well…Buchanan is basically…White politics. White politics isn’t really White Nationalism. The Tea Parties are White politics. The Republican Party, increasingly, is White politics. But you know Buchanan is sort of pro-Nazi himself. That’s a real problem with him.

Well, he’s not really pro-Nazi. Instead, he takes the position that the conservatives around the time of WW2, they were not explicitly pro-Nazi, but instead, they took the position that the Communists were a lot worse than the Nazis, or that defeating the Nazis wasn’t really worth it because Eastern Europe fell to Communism and Western Europe fell to multiculturalism. So that’s sort of where Pat Buchanan is coming from.

Break

The conservative movement around WW2 was under a lot of pressure, and the conservatives later changed their position – some conservatives nowadays will say that the Nazis and Communists were equally evil – there are even some who go out of their way to say that the Nazis were worse. I saw Denis Prager speak several years ago, and he said that he thought that the Nazis were even worse than the Communists, and that’s usually the position that the Left took.

Isn’t he a Jew though?

Yes, he is, so that’s a logical position but part of it is this Jewish influence for the neoconservative movement that has had a huge impact on the conservative movement in the US.

Well…I’m coming out of the WW2 Left, and those are my heroes, my comrades. The fascists and the Nazis are my enemies. They killed my comrades. If they ever come back in power, they will kill me, and I have no sympathy at all for those guys. And it’s not even a question of overall who was worse. See, I don’t think Stalin killed 20, 40, 60 or 110 million. I think Stalin killed 2.5 million. I don’t agree with those figures. Those are Nazi lies as far as I’m concerned.

I don’t believe that that famine was a deliberate famine, you know, the Holodomor, that fake famine that the Ukrainians go on about? Do you know what that famine is? The Ukrainian famine, the Holodomor?

Yes, I know what you are talking about, but it’s important to note that there is definitely a double standard when it comes to Communist atrocities, there can be an open discussion. But if you debate the Nazi atrocities, if you’re in Germany, you can actually go to jail for that.

Well…you can still debate the Nazi atrocities. And the legitimate figures for how many Jews were killed ranges all the way down to 4.2 million. So you can say that there were no 6 million killed, there were only 4 million, and that doesn’t make you a Holocaust Denier. And there are people who say it was over 6 million.

Anyway, historians pretty much agree about the basics. The debate’s over about the Holocaust. They did kill anywhere from 4 million to over 6 million Jews. That’s just the bottom line. There’s no further discussion about it. And the Holocaust Revisionists and the Holocaust Deniers have an ulterior motive, which is to bring back Nazism and to do the Holocaust all over again, and this time do it right.

So you’re saying that people who try to downplay the Nazi atrocities, their goal is to bring back the Nazis.

That’s correct, exactly.

For European nationalism, the accusation of Nazism is used as a weapon to suppress that nationalism, to make it pathological. But the other argument with regard to Zionism, if you look at Norman Finkelstein. His parents were actually Holocaust survivors. He wrote that book, The Holocaust Industry. And Israel has long stood by that, and they’ve used as a shield to be immune from any criticism.

Well, yes, there’s a good argument about the Holocaust as a religion. And Finkelstein does a good job on that. Finkelstein is not a Denier or anything like that that he is accused of. That’s not true. The Dean of Holocaust Studies is a guy named Martin Gilbert. I think he’s dead by now, but he puts the figure at 5.1 million. I don’t think it was 6 million myself. I think it was 5.7 million. Just because you say there were no 6 million Jews killed in the Holocaust doesn’t mean you’re a Denier. There is still a lot of debate on the issue. There’s no real debate on the basics.

But you think there are similarities…You were saying that Israel has been going in a fascist direction.

Right. Well, on the Left, we’ve always called Zionism fascism. We think it’s fascism for Jews. It’s been a fascist movement from Day One, from the very start. We on the Left don’t like any ethnonationalism.

The reason that the Left doesn’t like Zionism is because they see it as kind of a hyper ethnonationalist movement. But I think there is also an anti-Zionist Right. They see Zionism more as a form of internationalism.

Zionism? As a form of internationalism? See, that’s crazy though. That’s nuts. That’s just anti-Semitic whackery.

But they are occupying another people’s land.

It’s a colonial project. It’s a settler-colonial project. It’s an imperialist project. It’s an ethnonationalist project. It’s a fascist project. There’s nothing progressive or Left about it. Where’s the internationalism? Internationalists don’t persecute minorities in that fascist way like the Israelis do. That’s not what an internationalist does.

Well the thing is that the Israel Lobby is by far the most powerful lobby in the US.

It’s one of them. There’s actually another one that’s more powerful. I think that the Oil Lobby or the Military Lobby is bigger.

The Military-Industrial Complex.

They are the most powerful ethnic lobby, for sure. Our elections are all about Jewish money. And the whole pro-Israel thing is all about Jewish money. The Jews have the US Congress by the short hairs, and they control the US Congress and government on the Israel issue to a pretty significant extent.

I think that that is why the anti-Zionist Right says that Zionism is internationalist. Because they manage to simultaneously support things like multiculturalism and immigration and also Zionism. I think it’s this extreme double standard.

Well…They’re supporting fascism for Jews over there in their homeland. Fascism for Jews is good for Jews over in Israel, but on the other hand, there isn’t any fascism for Jews over here in the US. Fascism in the US, or anywhere else in the world, is bad for the Jews, always, and so is ethnonationalism, because it’s always going to turn on the Jews. So in the Diaspora, the Jews always promote multiculturalism and whatnot as a way of diluting their enemies and making the Diaspora societies more friendly to the Jews. It’s all about what’s good for the Jews.

That’s where you get that word “internationalist” that Henry Ford wrote about.

Henry Ford was a great man! I like Henry Ford. I think he’s unjustly maligned. The International Jew is a good book, and I like it. But he’s wrong about some things. See, the main thing is that back then, Jews were internationalists because they didn’t have roots to the land. They were internationalists in the sense that their only allegiance was to their international Jewish community.

They weren’t real true internationalists. It’s more that they weren’t nationalists. They were basically traitors! The Jews have always been traitors, and they still are to some extent nowadays because their primary loyalty is to their international Jewish community and not necessarily to their own homeland. And they will screw their own homeland if it’s good for the Jews. When it comes down to either supporting the homeland or supporting the Jews, they will support the Jews! And that’s the big problem with the Jews. That’s why the nationalists hate them.

Yes, it’s definitely the cause of anti-Semitism. You’re saying that you’re against anti-Semitism.

Right.

But you support rational criticism of the Jews.

Right.

But how do we deal with this? Because there is a flaw in anti-Semitism since the Jewish leadership relies on anti-Semitism to get their followers more radicalized and ethnocentric. But at the same time, I don’t want to give the Jews a free pass either. How do you propose that we deal with these issues?

Well…when you get into anti-Semitism, you are basically falling into the Jews’ trap because the Jews want you to be an anti-Semite! That’s the way I see it. Now, personally, I don’t think the Jews are very important!

The only people who think Jews are important are:

1. Jews.
2. Anti-Semites.

I don’t think that Jews deserve all this attention that we are giving them. They’re just this little pissant tribe, and I don’t think they are deserving of all this interest and obsession. When you go anti-Semite, you’re giving the Jews what they want. You’re telling the Jews that they are important, when they are not! And…anti-Semites created Israel!

You’re strengthening Zionism. Because the whole idea of anti-Zionism is that we anti-Zionists want the Jews to be able to live peacefully in the Diaspora. We don’t want them all running to Israel because of Diaspora anti-Semitism. If you’re an anti-Semite, you’re chasing them over to Israel!

It’s interesting because Helen Thomas was saying that Israel should be dismantled and they should all move here but if Israel was dismantled…I know some on the anti-Zionist Right who support returning that land to the Palestinians. But what would happen is that they would all move to Europe and the US. So I can sort of see what you are getting at.

Do the anti-Semites really want that? I know anti-Semites who support Israel. Their attitude is, “We sure as Hell don’t want the Jews in our country!”

I’m not sure if the BNP is anti-Semitic or not, but they support Israel.

The BNP has anti-Semitic roots, but they recently did a turnaround and now they are pro-Jewish, they are Judeophilic, they are pro-Israel, they are Zionists. And it’s all because they are anti-Islam. It’s all because they don’t like Muslims. The BNP doesn’t care that much about Jews. Jews are not that big of an issue in the UK anyway. The Jews in the UK are very well assimilated, and they don’t have a lot of power there.

The big problem in the UK is not the Jews, it’s the Muslims. They’re setting off bombs!

Well, with Europe and the US, we have to look at them differently because they do have very different issues. If you look at Europe, the Muslim issue is huge there. In the US, the Muslim community here is pretty small. With the Muslims, they try to stir up fears about Islam to get support for wars in the Middle East.

The Muslim community here is as big as the one in Britain! The ones in the UK are just not assimilated very well. They are Pakistanis from the former British possessions, and they are just not doing well. It’s more a question of assimilation rather than numbers. We are fortunate in the US to have such a well-behaved Muslim community…so far!

But you think there could be an issue here in the future.

Yes, definitely, definitely. I mean I would not want to allow millions more Muslims to flood into this country willy-nilly. No, not at all. And I think we need to be very careful about the Muslims that we let in here. We need to make them take things like loyalty tests. I don’t know, I don’t know. Muslim minorities in non-Muslim countries are not that great of a thing. They tend to get really agitated and radicalized. They tend to make demands for Sharia law.

They’re…they’re like the Jews! They’re not loyal! They have dual loyalty. Their primary loyalty is to the Ummah and barely, if at all, to the nation. They will actually set bombs against their own nation because the nation is fighting the Ummah. The Ummah is the Muslim community of the whole world. U-m-m-a-h.

You do think that they have an imperialist agenda too. We are being kind of imperialistic towards them in the Middle East, but they do want to spread their religion through demographics and move throughout the world and have as many kids as possible.

Islam is extremely imperialist! That’s a definite fact! One thing you can say about the Jews is they are not imperialist. They don’t want converts. They don’t want to take over. If you want to convert to Judaism, you go to a rabbi, and tell him you want to convert to Judaism, the first thing he’s going to ask you is, “Why? Why do you want to convert to Judaism? Why do you want to do that? What do you want to do that for?”

Do you think that is for racial purity reasons?

No…Jews just don’t convert. Religions either proselytize or they don’t. Jews used to proselytize and take a lot of converts, but they haven’t been doing it lately for some reason. Jews just don’t convert people. It’s not their thing. There are other religions like that too, especially in the Middle East. That philosophy has its roots in purity stuff, but it’s generally not a very good idea for your religion to not accept converts. It’s a way to make your religion go extinct – don’t accept converts.

I haven’t really studied Islam. I haven’t looked at the texts, so I don’t want to make claims about a religion if I haven’t studied it. But if you study the history of Islam, it’s definitely a pretty imperialist religion. With Europe, the Muslim leaders definitely have a goal to take over Europe.

Sure! And so do the ones in the US! If you read the statements of CAIR, the Council on American Islamic Relations, it’s run by Islamists, and they say the same thing as the ones in Europe do – that their goal is a Muslim America. And that’s what’s scary about these people. I don’t think we should be letting a lot of them in. As long as they are only 2% of the population, what are they going to do? But what happens when they get to be 5%? 10%?

What is the level of growth in that community in the US?

Not that much in the US. They have a few converts here and there. Actually, a much greater problem in the West in terms of Islam is that a lot of Muslims leave Islam. In the UK, 15% of all Muslims are leaving Islam. In Africa, millions of Muslims are leaving Islam every year. In Russia, 100,000’s of Muslims are leaving Islam every year. It’s a problem for Islam that when Muslims are a minority, a lot of Muslims leave Islam. Especially in an Islamic-hostile country.

Has that happened in Europe at all?

In the UK, about 15% leave, yes. Pakistanis. They don’t like Islam. In a few cases, they try to kill them for leaving, but so many leave that there is only so much the radicals can do. It’s hard to be a Muslim in a Western society! There are all those temptations. Do you really want to be a Muslim? If you’re a woman, do you want to wear that bag? If you’re a guy, do you want to shine on chicks, not look at porn, not date women, be a virgin until you get married? I mean, Western culture is pretty fun!

Do you think it’s a motivation for terrorism to come from a sexually repressed culture, and they see the West as being sexually immoral. You’ve heard that argument. How much of a role do you think that plays?

Hmm…I’m not sure. They kill women for violating Islam, but they also kill men. In Muslim-majority countries, they will kill guys for leaving Islam. The thing about Islam is that, from the very start, Islam has not accepted people leaving their religion. They do not accept apostates! They kill them! They’ve always done this, from Day One.

I was talking to my Mom about that, and she just acted like, “Well, that’s just the way they are. Muslims don’t like that. They’ll kill you if you leave.” She didn’t say it like they’re evil, but more that this is just the way that they are. They’ve been this way for about 1,300 years. It’s the nature of their religion. But that’s their imperialist nature right there! Because they accept lots of converts, but they won’t let anybody leave! It’s like a house that’s an Open House. Anybody in the neighborhood can come in, but once you’re in there, they lock the doors, and you can never get out.

It would be like a country that took in all these immigrants, but will not let anyone leave the country.

Yes! Especially with the goal of, “We’re going to be the biggest country in the world and take over all the other countries.” And they have emissaries all over all the other countries in the world trying to make their Muslims dual citizens. It’s true that Islam has a world conquest agenda, and Al Qaeda and folks like that are absolutely explicit in their goals of taking over the world. I’ve read Al Qaeda’s statements. And I’ve been interviewed by the FBI too about Al Qaeda. Because I did some research on them.

Yes?

Yes I know something about Al Qaeda. It was funny, I called the FBI back one time, and I asked for the Bin Laden Division, because they’ve got this Bin Laden Task Force. And it was Friday night and they said, “Oh, they’re gone for the weekend!” I thought that was lame. I think the Bin Laden Task Force should be working 24-7. This FBI guy called me back and they did an interview with me. I didn’t really like it too much because they always treat you like you’re a suspected terrorist.

Yes, they think you’re a suspected terrorist if you’re going to them with information.

Yes, I don’t like to be interviewed by cops either. They always treat you like you’re a suspected criminal. That’s just their nature.

I don’t think that’s intentional, but it’s just what they are used to doing as part of their job.

Well, he wanted to find out if I was a Muslim! He was like, “Are you a Muslim?” I was like, “No way!” And he was breathing easier. I told him I was a Leftist, a Left-winger, and he was like, “Oh well, we’re not worried about you.” The FBI is worried about American Muslims, especially converts. White guys like me convert. And quite a few of those guys go super-radical. Because converts are often crazy.

They’re more radical than the people who are born into it because they joined just for that purpose, to embrace that belief system.

In many religions, even the converted Jews…the Jewish converts often go really nuts.

I’ve met Christians who converted to Judaism. They started out as Christian Zionists and that was their motivation for joining Judaism.

The Jews say that the Jewish converts are simply nuts in many cases. They’re like these fanatical Jews. And it’s interesting too, because the Jewish converts often take on a lot of these supposed “Jewish genetic tendencies.” They become extremely ethnocentric, they become paranoid of the Gentiles. These are not genetic tendencies! The ethnocentrism, the paranoia of the Gentiles, the tribalism.

Some people think that those traits are genetic.

Yes! I don’t agree with that.

But who’s been saying that it’s genetic? I think it’s cultural. Who’s been saying that?

Well, the Nazi thing was that there was something wrong with their genes.

Well, I see what you are saying. I know that way of thinking.

Kevin MacDonald has suggested that too, and boy is he wrong.

He has brought it up. I read his blog a lot, and I think that MacDonald’s main view is that it’s a culture, a political ideology. Do you think that he has mentioned the genetic aspect?

I think he mentions something about that. If you read his Trilogy of books, he suggested that Jewish character traits might be genetic. I think that’s crazy. Supposedly the Jews are really aggressive verbally and in business, and they can be rude.

Well, I think that’s cultural too, because the Jews are verbally and in business, extremely aggressive. But physically, Jews are not aggressive at all. Jewish guys have a reputation for being wimps. Jews commit almost no physical violence or violent crime. Jews are bad at sports. So…what did they inherit? Some sort of gene that made him extremely verbally aggressive but at the same time extremely non-aggressive as far as physical aggression goes? That doesn’t make any kind of sense.

Well, Jewish behavior is definitely cultural, since it also depends on where they grew up. If they grew up in New York or if they grew up in a small town in the Midwest is going to make a huge difference. I was reading about this story. There was this rabbi, he went to Peru and he got these Peruvian Indians and he took them to Israel and they turned into these fanatics after about 5 years.

Yes, they probably started acting more Jewish than Jews in New York that are 500 years Kosher. That shows you that one can take on those psychological tendencies of the Jews. It’s simply a cultural thing. I could be like that. I could be like that if I converted to Judaism. I could get really paranoid of the Gentiles and really hyperethnocentric, I could get really acquisitive, really verbally aggressive…

You grow up in a culture like that…and those people from around the Mediterranean, they tend to be that way anyway. They tend to be verbally aggressive, really emotionally expressive…They’re really into business too. Jews act a lot like Arabs, that’s the thing. They get in your face, but they’re really warm too, they embrace you, and when they’re talking to you, they’re like two inches away.

18 Comments

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18 responses to “Transcript of My Latest Interview July 7, 2010

  1. lafayette sennacherib

    That was pretty entertaining. It sounded more like the real you. You did pretty well considering the constituency you were addressing who are about as amenable to reason as cats and dogs. So I’m reluctant to quibble, but … yes, you guessed – QUIBBLE (one will do):

    “I don’t think that Jews deserve all this attention that we are giving them. They’re just this little pissant tribe … When you go anti-Semite, you’re giving the Jews what they want. ”

    This is an assertion I come across a lot from jewish and philosemitic (i.e. Trots) supporters of the Palestinians, people I consider to be covert zionists , either from conviction or expedience. ( ‘zionists’, ‘jew-firsters’ would be better; ‘ the jews’ IS arguably antisemitic). The reason they say this is because that’s the LAST thing they want – non-jews, especially in America, openly discussing why nearly 50% of their billionaires, almost the entire current administration, the entire board of the Fed, the ownership of all the media, 50% to 70% of academics in key areas, lawyers, BANKERS, key administrators – yes, ‘the jews’ REALLY want people to start talking about that – like a hole in the head. Have they made you an offer you can’t refuse? A bagel franchise?

  2. Paul Grenville

    So pro-Zionist Jews are over-represented – in relation to their population, six million, or 2% of the US population – in the US political ruling class, both Democrat and Republican, the media, education, medicine, and finance, to name the chief areas. We know this.

    The next leader of the British Labour – very likely to be David Miliband or his brother – is also a pro-Zionist Jew (“I am the child of Jewish immigrants and that is a very important part of my identity.” David Miliband).

    There is – it seems very likely – a distorting effect on the US political process, particularly in relation to the relationship between America and Israel.

    What is the remedy? Can you suggest one? To make this relationship more explicit? To name and shame? Since you have looked into this area do your observations also apply to the UK, which has about 300,000 Jews?

  3. lafayette sennacherib

    Pertinent quote from a recent Israel Shamir interview ‘the Obscure Charm of Zionism’ (available on his site http://www.israelshamir.net/English/right-wing_zionists.htm)

    ” … the Americans are subdued. They do not support Palestinians because they do not understand how can they rebel against Jewish rule? The US nationalists are not much to expect, either: they prefer to boast about their white skin, though forsooth, the only white man in their congress was Cynthia McKinney. “

  4. Paul Grenville

    Well I think Shamir is more than a little bonkers.
    And you didn’t answer my question. What do you make of this? From his article The Yardarm is the Remedy:

    “Israel is a terrorist state, thus its supporters and lobbyists are supporters of terror network. They should be arrested immediately and their assets seized.
    While this will bring freedom to people of Gaza, it will incidentally solve the financial and economic crisis as well, because the terrorist supporters head such criminal structures as Goldman-Sachs and Pentagon. They occupy not only Nablus, but the Capitol Hill and Wall Street as well. Their removal will save millions. The Greek debts and American mortgages will be evaporated; Afghanistan and Iraq will find peace. Even democracy will become real, instead of demo version.”
    Does this remind you of somebody? Gilad Atzmon on the financial crisis? It’s the Jews, stupid!
    I read the interview carefully and began to feel as I’d soiled myself. Ah, I must be Jewish too, that’s it, one of those Welsh great grandparents converted and I didn’t know about it…

    • Yeah, typical Shamir socialism of fools stuff.

      Is that what Atzmon is writing about the financial crisis? I wasn’t aware that Atzmon was a socialist at all, much less that he supported the socialism of fools.

      Well, many of us are socialists in the finest, most hidden corners of our hard hearts. Too bad that Atzmon squandered his on the foolish stuff on sale at the dollar store.

  5. lafayette sennacherib

    What question? Does it apply to the UK? Probably, but not so blatantly. Why is the Chief Rabbi on Thought for the Day so much? That really annoys me. But they don’t need to run Britain, since Britain just does what the US tells it. I don’t come across any figures.
    Why do you feel soiled by reading that Shamir interview, Paul. Do you not believe it’s true? I myself have some reservations about Shamir – his religious bit, especially when he tails that guy E. Michael Jones of ‘the Jewish Revolutionary Spirit’. Jones IS seriously mentally ill in my opinion, or a really nasty huckster; that stuff IS pretty much what I would call real nasty traditional antisemitism. Shamir though I think just sometimes gets carried away with his metaphors, spinning everything and anything into them; his PaRDeS was a load of shit, but Flowers of Galilee and Masters of Discourse are some of the finest writing I’ve come across. I think he’s been having second thoughts about E. Michael Jones and his ‘logos’ bit recently. So, a mixed bag, but when he’s good, he’s good. Same with Gilad. He’s a nice guy, but sometimes his enthusiasm carries him too far.
    ‘The socialism of fools’ ? Well, funnily enough it was a jewish ‘Marxist’ who said that – he would, wouldn’t he? No, I don’t think Gilad Atzmon is a socialist; I think he’s more clear what he’s against than what he’s for. Who mentioned socialism anyway? You did, right! Well, socialism starts with democracy. What little democracy we’ve achieved so far isn’t to be sneezed at. If the last few US administrations, the entire board of the Fed, the entire ownership of the major banks, the universities, the media, you know the rest of that… if it wasn’t jews but say Arabs, or nazis, or rastafarians, wouldn’t you think it peculiar if no-one thought to wonder if there was something undemocratic going on?

  6. Paul Grenville

    …if it wasn’t Jews but say Arabs, or Nazis, or Rastafarians, wouldn’t you think it peculiar if no-one thought to wonder if there was something undemocratic going on?

    My question was what’s the remedy, but there’s no reason why you should know any more than me.

    Yes I would. The Jews have a kind of cordon sanitaire around them. The Nazi attempt to remove the Jews from history has led to the worst of all possible outcomes. That Saam Amerat is even worse than Shamir. But one point about Shamir. He says Germany was colonised by Jews. That is a very peculiar use of the word colonised. They were indigenous to the region, from way back, just like Baghdadi Jews.

    This is Saam Amerat.

    “But Israel is where they build, and Israel is where they want Jews to work and contribute. To create their dream. So yes you are right Europe and America is where the Zionists suck blood, but Israel is where they vomit it out in to the awaiting ever hungry mouths of the settlers. Eating alone makes people, however selfish very constipated, Israel is where they relieve themselves of their ill gotten wealth with the excuse that it will fertilise Israel’s barren economy, but all that results from the shit they send to Israel is a very bad smell.”

    Israel’s economy is far from barren. It’s very high tech.

    This is actually Saam Amerat. I had a bad feeling reading this, I can’t say why. Perhaps it was the metaphors, the moralism in place of analysis. It made me feel sick.

    Obviously Israel’s long term future is one of integration with the region – I can’t see any other possible future, decoupling of the Hebrew nation from all the Jewish nonsense, decoupling of the religious from the secular in the Hebrew polity, and naturalisation, integration with a Levantine identity. Half of you may have come from Europe originally, but you’re now in the Levant and it’s the third generation. Oh and you have to learn to speak Arabic. Hebrews have to become bilingual. Along the way, cancellation of the Jewish National fund and the Jewish right to immigration, restoration of the Palestinian right of return. What an upheaval compared to the current state of affairs. Ultimately there’ll be a Hebrew minority -possibly with its own territory – in an Arab and Arabic speaking land. I can’t imagine any other (very longterm) outcome. Israel/Palestine is such a mess I can’t see how it can happen except through a mass loss of confidence in the Jewish state…it’s a horrible situation. Looking at post apartheid South Africa (Pilger has some good material) one can see that the wounds of colonialism will take many generations to heal.

    Ditto for Israel/Palestine, we’re not even post Zionism yet. The most dangerous thing about Israel is the belief system of Israeli Jews, plus all that firepower, plus exacerbated militarism, plus nuclear weapons, plus an unrivalled ability to lie and deceive and spy on your best friend – the United States. The most revolting things about Israel are the self-righteousness and the arrogance, the denial and the cult of violence and death (see Death and the Nation by Idith Zertal).

    I can’t find Gilad’s article on the financial crisis. Indeed all his stuff – even his name – seems to have vanished off palestinethinktank. Something’s going on there. He’s fallen out with someone. I’m not surprised. He’s not a team type. He operates alone. I guess it’s on his own site somewhere.

    I dislike all the religious Thought for the Day commentators. Mealy mouthed emollient moralists. Ugh! Do you think the Rabbi – is it Lionel Blue? – has more than his fair share of air time?

  7. Paul Grenville

    What is going on at palestinethinktank? Clues here:
    http://uprootedpalestinians.blogspot.com/2010/05/strategy-of-liberation-requires.html and an interesting Palestinian perspective on the Jewish peace groups. From Nahida: A Palestinian once said “We run from Jew to Jew, they create the problem, and also argue the solution, they control the full spectrum of our discourse as well as our existence.”

  8. Ken Hoop

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_States'_Rights_Party

    Bob overstated somewhat. Some, mostly southern white supremacists were pro-Nazi, or proto-Nazi. But even they criticised the actual American Nazi Party…for bad tactics in using the swastika, etc.

  9. Paul Grenville

    I find this stuff quite hard to follow. It’s so very very different from UK politics, but I don’t think New Labour is all that different in outlook from the Democratic Party these days. The BNP are definitely fascist, sorry Robert, their programme’s just not enough to go on. They.ve just airbrushed their image – and it hasn’t worked. Study the leaders’ statements and you’ll see they are a pro-fascist, pro-Hitler organisation, Holocaust deniers and these days pro-Zionist too. In the 30s they used to beat the shit out of the Jews – that’s what the battle of Cable Street in the East End of London was about. No pasaran! The A3P party doesn’t sound as if it will get very far if it just reaches out to poor whites, but you’re very interesting on this stuff.

  10. Paul Grenville

    PS Atzmon considers himself a socialist. I’m not sure anyone else does. In Israel he had some brief involvement with an anarchist group.

  11. lafayette sennacherib

    Atzmon’s got his own site. You can sign up for a newsletter. And his pieces are also posted on Uprooted Palestinians – there’s a lot I virulently disagree with him about, but there’s a lot good too, stuff that no-one else will talk about, because the ‘left’ are effectively jewish organisations. There IS something funny going on at Palestine Think Tank. Haitham Sabbah has ‘gone funny’ – it doesn’t sound like the same guy even. Tony Greenstein says that Mary Rizzo et al booted Gilad out because of a piece that was disrespectful of another great jewish gobshite Moshe Makeover. Gilad denies this. If you look at a previous thread on Nahida’s bit of Uprooted Palestinians you can read a brief exchange between me and Gilad, and then a long argument between me and someone else if you’re really masochistic. The post was called ‘Through the Fog of Deception’ (the first one, sounds like you read the follow up) – Nahida explains why she left Palestine Think Tank. Mary Rizzo’s much the same – I like Mary. Haitham though used to be a genial and sound bloke, but he’s taken up some hard-to-fathom positions.
    What would I do about it? Doesn’t matter what I’d do about it. The Bobby Fischer solution? Read Peter Dale Scott’s books – the military is just one big drug-running operation. And who launders the money for them? No, the notion that some upright general is going to save the day by throwing the money-lenders out of the temple is a dungeons and dragons fantasy. But the situation is very serious – the Israelis already supply ALL the USA’s communications computer software, and can listen in on EVERYTHING; how long before they have the power to shut down all the US command and control systems at will? Answer – they can probably already do this. This is a sinister pseudo-ethnic nazi mafia that is very close to enslaving the rest of us . The first thing is for the rest of us to get our heads out of the sand and stop pretending it’s not happening. We have to disarm Israel, and remove the entire jewish-power network from the power nodes and administration networks of our societies. Call it what it is – a racist conspiracy, agents of a foreign power, treason.

    Another day for the ramifications – if you want to pursue this. One thing – the jews were NOT indigenous to Germany, like the Iraqi jews who had been living there for thousands of years. There had been small communities of jews in German lands since the middle ages, but there was a large ‘influx ‘( apparently that’s a ‘racist’ codeword, so some pseudo-left wanker told me) in the late 19th and early 20th centuries. Shamir said that some Germans ‘ FELT’ they had been colonised. You can’t talk about this until you’ve read W.E. Mosse’s ‘the Jews in the German Economy’ – (if you’re in London, your library consortium might be able to get it; they get if for me, before I found it at a reasonable price – usually VERY expensive). This is the ONLY book on the subject. It’s a pure pleasure to read by the way, and it shows how much ill-informed shit is talked by all sides of the debate.

    Anyway, enough of this for now. Robert’s got some other threads running about Black Dick and white pussy and the like – that stuff seems to really bring the chicks in! This stuff seems to leave them cold.

  12. lafayette sennacherib

    http://uprootedpalestinians.blogspot.com/2010/06/through-fog-of-deception.html

    Gilad’s own site. There’s an archive of his essays. Some, particularly older ones, are very interesting, particularly on ‘the left’ :
    http://www.gilad.co.uk/

    Here’s what Gilad had to say about why he left PTT:

    Hello Lafayette

    I decided to keep quiet about the reasons that led me to leave PTT because I do not think that this movement needs more conflicts. However, as it seems the political line that was taken by PTT had been exposed and it is down to the people out there to judge whether they like it or not.

    I do believe that a resistance movement should be able to live in peace with pluralism. I accept the differences between PTT and myself with respect. However, I can only say that like Nahida, at a certain point, I didn’t want any political or intellectual affiliation with PTT. I asked PTT to remove all my posts. So they did. End of story.

    Mr Lafayette, i do not ve the energy or the time to take care of comment blog on my site. As you may know my papers are published all over the net. I myslef try to post my articles here in UP. If you want to comment on my ideas and to participate in a lively discussion you can find many places to do so including UP. You can also do it on my facebook page.

    Re Machover, I didn’t hear from him or about him for long time. I am very happy about it. As I said many time before, i do not know whether i have ever liberated a single pls, but i certainly did one thing, I have manged to expose a network of Sayanim and Zionist fig leaf within the Pls solidarity movement.

    I am very proud of myself. 10 years ago they were at the core of the discourse, nowadays, they aren’t even marginal.

    The Tide has Changed !!!

    Peace Gilad

  13. lafayette sennacherib

    http://www.gilad.co.uk/writings/not-in-my-name-an-analysis-of-jewish-righteousness-by-gilad.html
    Atzmon’s site just seems to have essays from the last 2 years. He had a previous site with an archive of older essays, which I think were more interesting than his recent ones, but I can’t find them now. Here’s some entertaining ones from the new site (the first one is the one you were looking for – it just actually meanders pretty aimlessly. The others are more fun)

    http://www.gilad.co.uk/writings/credit-crunch-or-rather-zio-punch-by-gilad-atzmon.html

    http://www.gilad.co.uk/writings/think-tribal-speak-universal-by-gilad-atzmon.html

    http://www.gilad.co.uk/writings/jewish-secular-fundamentalism-by-gilad-atzmon.html

    http://www.gilad.co.uk/writings/anthony-julius-and-a-journey-to-the-dark-zionist-world-by-gi.html

  14. Paul Grenville

    Ok thanks for this Lafayette. Have you read Crossing the Rubicon by the guy who used to publish From the Wilderness? That’s good on drugs, the military and the CIA. I read your dialogue with “Michael”. You don’t get anywhere with people like him. I like Nahida as it happens and have corresponded with her. Nice lady. Gilad I met a couple of times. A very contentious individual, with a lot of “heart”. His enthusiasm does get the better of his judgement at times – e.g. in his essay “Living on borrowed time in a stolen land” where he overestimates, or rather invents, “ballistic capabilities” for Hamas. Did you know that all new flats in Tel-Aviv have one room reinforced with steel in which the residents can shelter in case of missile attack? And yet no missile has hit Tel-Aviv since it was founded in 1909, and no Arab army has ever got near the Israeli border, even in ’73. The Mosse book would be very interesting if I can get hold of it. I’m off to look at my broad beans and my strawberries now before it gets too hot…ha ha

  15. Paul Grenville

    http://www.gaza-strophe.com/eng/index.htm
    New film on the massacre of Gaza at the start of 2009. Spread the word!

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