Did the Proto-Iberians Come From the Caucasus?

Bible: In Genesis 10 and 1Chronicles 1, the fifth son of the patriarch Japheth is named Tubal and the sixth – is named Meshech.

Roman Literature: In the Septuagint the name is given as Th-obel, and Th-ober in the Codex Alexandrinus (Ezek. 39:1). To the Greeks, the sons of Tubal were the Τ-ιβαρηνοί (T-ibar-enoi); to the Romans they were the T- ibar-eni or T-iber-eni.

Herodotus (Roman historian) says the land of the Tibarenians belonged to the 19th satrapy of Darius the Persian (Histories, III, 94). In VII, 78 we see the T-ibar-enians or T-iber-enians allied with their cousins the Maschians or Meskhians, sons of Meshech. Both peoples were renowned for their archery skills, and the close association of the descendants of Tubal with those of Meshech even to the present day is attested in several of the prophecies in the Bible that have a future fulfillment.

Appian (Roman historian) gives the range of opinion on the two Iberias: ‘As for the Iberians of Asia, some think them descendants of the European Iberians, others think them their ancestors, while others think that they simply share the same name’. (Mithr. 101).

In modern times, scholars have sought to establish a link between the two Moschians: Moschians in South Georgia and North Turkey, and Boschians (Bascians, Bascs) in North Spain and East France. Note the resemblance between “Bascs” and the Basques.

The people, who were later named Iberians (or dwellers along the Rio Ebro) by the Greeks, as well as Bascians, migrated to Iberian Peninsula in the third millennium B.C. The origin of the Iberians and Bascians is not certain, but archaeological evidence of their metallurgical and agricultural skills supports a theory that they came from the eastern shores of the Mediterranean Sea. The Iberians and Bascians lived in small, tightly knit, sedentary tribal groups that were geographically isolated from one another. Each group developed distinct regional and political identities, and intertribal warfare was endemic.

The Caucasian Iberians (Tiberians) and Maschians (Meskhians) may indeed have come from the Caucasus.

However, later on, there was tremendous Celtic influence as the Celts seem to have overrun the entire peninsula. Nevertheless, as late as 2000-3000 years ago, pre-Roman Iberian languages were spoken all over the peninsula. The remains of these languages are found in many placenames. The languages are isolates, and have no known relatives. It’s possible that they may be related to Basque though.

The Celtic influence can also be seen in many placenames. Celtic influence is profound in Northern Spain, especially in Galicia, Asturias, Calabria, over to the East in Aragon and certainly in Catalonia. Celtic influence is deep in the north of Portugal in a region called Lusitania.

Iberian genes do not show much connection to the Caucasus, but Basque genes do look somewhat Caucasian and are anomalous in Europe. I have studied the Basque language at length and a connection with the languages of the Caucasus, especially Northeast Caucasian languages like Chechen, seems likely to me, but not yet proven.

Not all Europeans are “Indo-Europeans.” They were only the latest wave of White or Caucasian types to move through Europe, and Europe was already heavily populated by little known “Old Europe” types before then. No one knows what these ancient Europeans looked like, but reports say that they were short and had dark hair and dark eyes.

Going back 12,000 years or so, European skulls look like the skulls of modern-day Arabs, and European genes from the same period also look like Arab genes. Whether or not Arabs are White is an interesting question.

A young woman from North Yemen - Southern Saudi Arabia, probably an Ismaili or Zaidi Shia of some sort. The best way to describe someone like this is to say that they are a part of the Mediterranean race of Whites. Probably a desert-adapted version of Meds. This woman is a fairly pure Arabid, probably with little African mixture.

The best answer seems to be that there are White Arabs and Non-White (Caucasian) Arabs.

A White Egyptian girl, characteristic of a White Arab or possibly a White Berber. She could easily be, say, an Italian. White in this case means "looks like a European." Tell a White nationalist that there are some White Arabs. They get really mad!

Whatever they are, if you are European, it looks like Arabs are your grandparents.

Classic Arabid type from an anthropology textbook. Say hello to Grandpa, White man.

Tell that to a White nationalist sometime. It really pisses them off!

29 Comments

Filed under Anthropology, Genetics, Geography, History, Indo-European, Race/Ethnicity, Regional

29 responses to “Did the Proto-Iberians Come From the Caucasus?

  1. Anthropology is so interesting. I wish I had a time machine so that I can go back in time to see the origins of all peoples.

    By the way, Robert, did you get my email about the Indians in Singapore? I had some sort of error when I sent it.

    • Never showed up my friend.

      Email is on the contact page. Click the link and mail.

    • anna

      You have so little knowledge about this subject

      Caucasia is a cradle of old civilizations (Iberians, sumerians, aryans, picts, celts, etc etc)
      Proto Iberians are tribes from Caucasus,
      a place called Georgia nowadays(kartvelians also called, inventors of wine and iron/metal and more, they were spread from Caucasus to the west Europe (via Bizantia, kreta, malta, Italy, Pirinei Iberia (Spain/Portugal), even to the norht Africa (berbers),
      to the south till middle east, to the east through Iran(Iranians called this tribes Aryans, how funny noways Iranians consider themselves descendants of them, have u ever seen blond blue eyes Iranians?), these tribes reached via Afghanistan, Pakistan vellies India, in their history they are mentioned light skin tribes from Caucasus who played major role in the history of India and who possessed the mystery of iron making (only proto iberian tribes/khalibs possessed this mystery in the ancient days)

      I can tell more but you
      check Dmanisi, The first Europeans
      http://www.dmanisi.org.ge/
      also
      blumenbach theory why whites are called CAUCASIANS http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caucasian_race
      and you know more than this lecturer/’scientist’ tells you

      • olbodala

        To my mind,it’s just a coincidence.

      • No-Name

        Indo-Iranians are the real Aryans, the root of both words being Sanskrit “arya,” Old Persian “[a]rta, ariya-” Avestan “asha” from Proto-INDO-IRANIAN “ar-,” hence IRAN. Germanic peoples NEVER had an endonym, i.e. what they refer to themselves, despite that German “Ehre-honor” and Scots “are-grace” are cognates to proto-Indo-Iranian “ar-;” they only called non-Germnic collectively walha (hence Welsch, Walloon,s Vlachs, etc.). And the endonym “Suebi-one’s own people” from proto-Indo-European “swe-,third person reflexive pronoun,” is only used by ONE Germanic tribes, who would later be assimilated by the Visgoths but later broke and became modern days Swedes.

  2. mott69

    A comment- pics of children, I don’t think, are very good for demonstrating the typical appearance of ethnic phenotypes. I would submit that “typical”ethnic physical traits get much more pronounced as one reaches, and advances into, maturity- then start to diminsh again with advanced old age. At the extreme- babies look similar- and so do people in their 90s! This, is of course, a generalization…

    • Interesting point, but I’m not sure what to say about it…and whether it’s true or not.

      I believe that children are said to have lighter skin and hair that often darkens as they get older. A lot of blond kids turn into brunettes as they get older.

    • Chris

      This article is incredibly anachronistic. If anyone other than this ‘researcher’ has compared genes of human beings he/she will find the only genetic similarities based on ‘race’ are negligible at best. I will share more of the same genes with a naturally-athletic (as in DNA-coded bone/muscle structure) Arab with, for example, a kidney weakness similar to mine, than I will with my white neighbour next door despite the fact that we are both predominantly of Scottish descent.

      Outward phenotypes have far less of a bearing on DNA structure than do inner ones. So unless this ‘researcher’ looked specifically at sequences that coded for, perhaps, an “Arab-like nose”—itself a fully artificial construction—than he has no idea what he’s talking about. Furthermore, no such DNA sequence is known, as you can probably surmise from the fact that no two noses look alike.

      • Look jerk, I am banning you. We are not race deniers here.

        HAND!

        • THE PROTO-IBERIANS COME FROM THE CAUCASUS

          CAUCASUS

          IBERIA

          Ancient Georgian Kingdoms of Iberia

          INTRODUCTION

          In Genesis 10 and 1 Chronicles 1, the fifth son of the patriarch Japheth is named Tubal and the sixth – is named Meshech.

          In the Septuagint the name is given as Th-obel, and Th-ober in the Codex Alexandrinus (Ezek. 39:1). To the Greeks, the sons of Tubal were the Τ-ιβαρηνοί (T-ibar-enoi); to the Romans they were the T-ibar-eni or T-iber-eni.

          Herodotus says the land of the Tibarenians belonged to the 19th satrapy of Darius the Persian (Histories, III, 94). In VII, 78 we see the T-ibar-enians or T-iber-enians allied with their cousins the Meshechians, sons of Meshech. Both peoples were renowned for their archery skills, and the close association of the descendants of Tubal with those of Meshech even to the present day is attested in several of the prophecies in the Bible that have a future fulfillment.

          Appian gives the range of opinion on the two Iberias: ‘As for the Iberians of Asia, some think them descendants of the European Iberians, others think them their ancestors, while others think that they simply share the same name’. (Mithr. 101).
          In modern times, scholars have sought to establish a link between the two Moschians: Moskhians in South Georgia and North Turkey, and Boskhians (Bascians, Bascs) in North Spain and East France.

          Iberia (Georgian – იბერია, Latin: Iberia or Iberi (in Greek: Ἰβηρία), also known as Iveria (Georgian: ივერია), was a name given by the ancient Greeks and Romans to the ancient Georgian kingdom of Kartali [1] (4th century BC-5th century AD) corresponding roughly to the eastern and southern parts of the present day Georgia. [2][3]
          The term Caucasian Iberia (or Eastern Iberia) is used to distinguish it from the Iberian Peninsula – the present day States of Spain and Portugal.

          The Caucasian Iberians – provided a basis for later Georgian statehood and along with Cola (ancient region of South Iberia Georgia) then Colchis (early Western Georgian State) formed a core of the present day Georgian people.

          The people, who were later named Iberians (or dwellers along the Rio Ebro) by the Greeks, migrated to Spain in the third millennium B. C. The origin of the Iberians is not certain, but archaeological evidences of their metallurgical and agricultural skills supports a theory that they came from the eastern shores of the Mediterranean Sea, particularly from the south of Black Sea. The earliest modern humans inhabiting Spain are believed to have been Paleolithic peoples who may have arrived in the Iberian Peninsula as early as 35,000–40,000 years ago.

          In more recent times the Iberians are believed to have arrived or developed in the region between the 4th millennium BC and the 3rd millennium BC, initially settling along the East-Mediterranean coasts. Qarts or Celts settled in Spain during the Iron Age. Some of those tribes in North-central Spain, which had cultural contact with the Iberians, are called Celt-Iberians.

          The Iberians shared in the Bronze Age revival (1900 to 1600 B.C.) common throughout the Mediterranean basin. In the east and the south of the Iberian Peninsula, a system of city-states was established possibly through the amalgamation of tribal units into urban settlements. Their governments followed the older tribal pattern, and they were despotically governed by warrior and priestly castes. A sophisticated urban society emerged with an economy based on gold and silver exports and on trade in tin and copper (which were plentiful in Spain) for bronze.

          The Iberians lived in small, tightly knit, sedentary tribal groups that were geographically isolated from one another. Each group developed distinct regional and political identities, and intertribal warfare was endemic. Other peoples of Mediterranean origin also settled in the peninsula during the same period and, together with the Iberians, mixed with the diverse inhabitants.

          Georgia

          Earliest history

          The area was inhabited in earliest times by several relative tribes, collectively called Iberians (the Eastern Iberians) by ancient authors. Locals called their country Kartli after a mythic chief, Kartlos.

          The Moschi (Boskhi, Baskhy) mentioned by various classic historians, and their possible descendants, the Saspers (who were mentioned by Herodotus), may have played a crucial role in the consolidation of the tribes inhabiting the area. The Moschi had moved slowly to the northeast forming settlements as they traveled. The chief of these was Mtskheta, the future capital (before Tbilisi) of the Iberian kingdom. The Mtskheta tribe was later ruled by a principal locally known as mamasakhlisi (“the father of the household” in Georgian).

          The medieval Georgian source Moktsevai Kartlisai (“Conversion of Kartli”) speak also about Azo and his people, who came from Arian-Kartli – the initial home of the proto-Iberians, which had been under Achaemenid rule until the fall of the Persian Empire – to settle on the site where Mtskheta was to be founded. Another Georgian chronicle Kartlis Tskhovreba (“History of Kartli”) claims Azo to be an officer of Alexander’s, who massacred a local ruling family and conquered the area, until being defeated at the end of the 4th century BC by Prince Pharnavaz, who was at that time a local chief.

          Pharnavaz I and his descendants

          Pharnavaz, victorious in power struggle, became the first king of Iberia (ca. 302-ca. 237 BC). Driving back an invasion, he subjugated the neighboring areas, including significant part of the western Georgian State of Colachis, and seems to have secured recognition of the newly founded state by the Seleucids of Syria. Now Pharnavaz focused on social projects, including the citadel of the capitol, the Armaztsikhe, and the idol of the god Armazi. He also reformed the Georgian written language, and created a new system of administration subdividing the country in several counties called saeristavos. His successors managed to gain control over the mountainous passes of the Caucasus with the Daryal (also known as the Iberian Gates) being the most important of them.

          The period following this time of prosperity was one of incessant warfare though. Iberia was forced to defend against numerous invasions into their territories. Iberia lost some of its southern provinces to Haistan (now Armenia), and the Colachian lands seceded to form separate princedoms (sceptuchoi). In the end of the 2nd century BC, the Pharnavazid king Farnadjom was dethroned by his own subjects and the crown given to the Armenian prince Arshak who ascended the Iberian throne in 93 BC, establishing the Arshakids dynasty.

          The Armenians of today are ‘Haik’ natives of India. In 7th century BC they settled in the Meskheti region called ‘Almenia’ and then take the pronoun of the place of settlement. (Just happened alternation of consonants: ‘Almenia’ – ‘Armenia’). Their country to this day they call ‘Haistan’, and themselves ‘Haik’.

          Roman period

          This close association with Armenia brought upon the country an invasion (65 BC) by the Roman general Pompey, who was then at war with Mithradates VI of Pontus, and Armenia; but Rome did not establish her power permanently over Iberia. Nineteen years later, the Romans again marched (36 BC) on Iberia forcing King Pharnavaz II to join their campaign against Albania (now territory of Azerbaijan).

          Albanians were Caucasian Christian Nation. They were the people who in the ninth century after Christ conquered Turkic tribes who came from the territory of today’s Turkmenistan.

          While another Georgian kingdom of Colchis was administered as a Roman province, Iberia freely accepted the Roman Imperial protection. A stone inscription discovered at Mtskheta speaks of the first-century ruler Mihdrat I (AD 58-106) as “the friend of the Caesars” and the king “of the Roman-loving Iberians.” Emperor Vespasian fortified the ancient Mtskheta site of Arzami for the Iberian kings in 75 AD.

          The next two centuries saw a continuation of Roman influence over the area, but by the reign of King Pharsman II (116 – 132) Iberia had regained some of its former power. Relations between the Roman Emperor Hadrian and Pharsman II were strained, though Hadrian is said to have sought to appease Pharsman. However, it was only under Hadrian’s successor Antoninus Pius that relations improved to the extent that Pharsman is said to have even visited Rome, where Dio Cassius reports that a statue was erected in his honor and that rights to sacrifice were given.

          The period brought a major change to the political status of Iberia with Rome recognizing them as an ally, rather than their former status as a subject state, a political situation which remained the same, even during the Empire’s hostilities with the Parthians.

          Between Rome/Byzantium and Persia

          Decisive for the future history of Iberia was the foundation of the Sassanian Empire in 224. By replacing the weak Parthian realm with a strong, centralized state, it changed the political orientation of Iberia away from Rome. Iberia became a tributary of the Sassanian state during the reign of Shapur I (241-272). Relations between the two countries seem to have been friendly at first, as Iberia cooperated in Persian campaigns against Rome, and the Iberian king Amazasp III (260-265) was listed as a high dignitary of the Sassanian realm, not a vassal who had been subdued by force of arms.

          But the aggressive tendencies of the Sasanians were evident in their propagation of Zoroastrianism, which was probably established in Iberia between the 260s and 290s. However, in the Peace of Nisibis (298) Rome was acknowledged their reign over the area, but recognized Mirian III, the first of the Chosroid dynasty, as King of Iberia. Byzantine predominance proved crucial, since King Mirian II and leading nobles converted to Christianity around 317. The event is related with the mission of a Cappadocian woman, Saint Nino, who since 303 preached Christianity in the Georgian kingdom of Iberia (Eastern Georgia).

          The religion would become a strong tie between Georgia and Rome (later Byzantium) and have a large scale impact on the state’s culture and society. However, after the emperor Julian was slain during his failed campaign in Persia in 363, Rome ceded control of Iberia to Persia, and King Varaz-Bakur I (Asphagur) (363-365) became a Persian vassal, an outcome confirmed by the Peace of Acilisene in 387. Although a later ruler of Kartli, Pharsman IV (406-409), preserved his country’s autonomy and ceased to pay tribute to Persia. Persia prevailed, and Sassanian kings began to appoint a viceroy (pitiaxae/bidaxae) to keep watch on their vassal.

          They eventually made the office hereditary in the ruling house of Lower Kartli, thus inaugurating the Kartli pitiaxate, which brought an extensive territory under its control. Although it remained a part of the kingdom of Kartli, its viceroys turned their domain into a center of Persian influence. Sassanian rulers put the Christianity of the Georgians to a severe test. They promoted the teachings of Zoroaster, and by the middle of the 5th century Zoroastrianism had become a second official religion in eastern Georgia alongside Christianity. However, efforts to convert the common Georgian people were generally unsuccessful.

          The early reign of the Iberian king Vakhtang I dubbed Gorgasali (447-502) was marked by relative revival of the kingdom. Formally vassal of the Persians, he secured the northern borders by subjugating the Caucasian mountaineers, and brought the adjacent western and southern Georgian lands under his control. He established an autocephalic patriarchate at Mtskheta, and made Tbilisi his capital. In 482, he led a general uprising against Persia. A desperate war for independence lasted for twenty years, but he could not get the Byzantine support, and was defeated dying himself in battle in 502.

          Fall of the kingdom

          See also: Principate of Iberia

          The continuing rivalry between Byzantium and Persia for supremacy in the Caucasus, and the next unsuccessful insurrection (523) of the Georgians under Gurgen had tragic consequences for the country. Thereafter, the king of Iberia had only nominal power, while the country was effectively ruled by the Persians. In 580, Hormizd IV (578-590) abolished the monarchy after the death of King Bakur III, and Iberia became a Persian province ruled by a marzpan (governor). Georgian nobles urged the Byzantine emperor Maurice to revive the kingdom of Iberia in 582, but in 591 Byzantium and Persia agreed to divide Iberia between them, with Tbilisi to be in Persian hands and Mtskheta to be under Byzantine control.

          At the beginning of the 7th century the truce between Byzantium and Persia collapsed. The Iberian Prince Stephanoz I (ca. 590-627), decided in 607 to join forces with Persia in order to reunite all the territories of Iberia, a goal he seems to have accomplished. But Emperor Heraclius’ offensive in 627 and 628 brought victory over the Georgians and Persians and ensured Byzantine predominance in western and eastern Georgia until the invasion of the Caucasus by the Arabs.

          Arab period

          Emirate of Tbilisi

          The Arabs reached Iberia about 645 and forced its eristavi (prince), Stephanoz II (637-ca. 650), to abandon his allegiance to Byzantium and recognize the Caliph as his suzerain. Iberia thus became a tributary state and an Arab emir was installed in Tbilisi about 653. At the beginning of the 9th century, eristavi Ashot I (813-830) of the new Bagrationi dynasty, from his base in southwestern Georgia, took advantage of the weakening of the Arab rule to establish himself as hereditary prince (titled as kouropalates) of Iberia. A successor, Adarnase II of Tao, formally vassal of Byzantium, was crowned as the “king of Georgians” in 888. His descendant Bagrat III (975-1014), brought the various principalities together to form a united Georgian state.

          Eastern and Western Iberians

          The similarity of the name with the old inhabitants of the Iberian peninsula, the ‘Western’ Iberians, has led to an idea of ethnogenetical kinship between them and the people of Caucasian Iberia (called the ‘Eastern’ Iberians).

          It has been advocated by various ancient and medieval authors, although they differed in approach to the problem of the initial place of their origin. The theory seems to have been popular in medieval Georgia. The prominent Georgian religious writer Giorgi Mthatzmindeli (George of Mt Athos) (1009-1065)[6] writes about the wish of certain Georgian nobles to travel to the Iberian peninsula and visit the local “Georgians of the West”, as he called them.[citation needed]

          References
          1. ^ Course of Ancient Geography, Henry Immanuel Smith, p. 279
          2. ^ The Roman Eastern Frontier and the Persian Wars, Geoffrey Greatrex, Samuel N. C. Lieu, p. 82
          3. ^ The Emperor Domitian, Brian W. Jones, p. 156
          4. ^ The Making of the Georgian Nation, Ronald Grigor Suny, p. 13
          5. ^ Readings in the History of the Ancient World, William Coffman McDermott, Wallace Everett Caldwell, p. 404
          6. ^ Might this George of Mt Athos be the same person listed in the Mount Athos article as “George Kedrinos (Γεώργιος Κεδρηνός, 11th century)”? Worth checking.
          [edit] External links
          • History of Iranian-Georgian Relations – Encyclopaedia Iranica article
          • Iberia at http://www.amarcord.be (in Dutch)
          • Iberia at Iberiana Association web site
          • Iberia: history, archaeology
          • Strabo on Iberia
          [edit] Further reading
          • Thomson, R.W. Rewriting Caucasian History (1996) ISBN 0-19-826373-2
          • Braund, David. Georgia in Antiquity: A History of Colchis and Transcaucasian Iberia, 550 BC – AD 562 (New York: Oxford University Press, 1994) ISBN 0-19-814473-3
          • Lang, David Marshall. The Georgians (London: Thames & Hudson, 1966)

          THE HISTORIC IBERIANS

          Important for this study is the fact that later history shows a unique group of people resident in a region bordering on and just south of the Caucasus, what is now Georgia. The residents of that region were known to the ancients as Iberi or Iveri.

          The first known historical mention of the Iberians was that of Hecataeus, born 540 BCE. According to Hecataeus the Iberians occupied Spanish Iberia.

          Knowledge of Iberi east of the Black Sea comes from the campaigns of the Roman general Pompey. Particularly, our knowledge of Iberi depends on Theophanes, a companion and intimate friend of Pompey. According to Theophanes the Iberi were highly civilized, with towns and markets. They had some pretense to architecture with tile roofs on their buildings. They had four classes of society: the nobility, the priests, the soldiers and farmers, and slaves employed in menial tasks. Their domestic organization was patriarchal, with the property of each family possessed in common and administered by the eldest member.

          According to Strabo the country abounded in all kinds of fruits and material for shipbuilding. Linen and wool of fine quality and in great quantities were produced.
          The evidence from Alashar and Boghazkoi in Anatolia shows that the earlier Ha-biru/Ha-beri people were located as close as one hundred miles from the Black Sea. If one draws a straight line along the Tigris River from the Persia Gulf through Anatolia one passes through the heart of the ancient Hittite kingdom in Asia Minor dating between the 17th and 15th centuries BCE.

          According to a 17th century AD English writer named Purchas in a work entitled Pilgrimage, published in 1614: The Iberians: “…saith Montanus, dwelt neare to Meotis; certaine Colonies of them inhabited Spaine and called it Hiberia.” Meotis was the ancient name for the Sea of Azov. If Montanus was correct, some of the eastern Iberi lived north of the Pontus Euxinus (Black Sea) and migrated to Spain as well. This would imply that the Iberi were spread over a large geographical area around the northern and eastern shores of the Black Sea. They were not limited to the small territory described by Theophanes. (Montanus was a Christian heretic who lived in the 2nd century AD. He was a converted pagan priest who proclaimed himself to be the Comforter promised by Jesus).

          From available evidence it seems reasonable to conclude that Iberians (may be the most Georgian ancient Sasberians or Isperians) were on the move in the middle of the first millennium BCE. The general flow of migration was from east to west. Although Strabo provided an invaluable record of ancient geography, and of people, a good portion of his work was borrowed from earlier sources; he also was not noted for his scholarly rigor. Since he relates the two Iberi people, and since Montanus does also, it would appear that the Spanish Iberi came from the Caucasian Iberi, or that both came from other Iberi origins. (Compare Sasberi – Isperi – Spani – Spain. By the way, Spani in ancient Georgian means People, Eri means nation– B.S.).

          In any case the western Iberi settled along the eastern and southern shores of the Iberian peninsula. They quickly penetrated to its heartland in heavy population, building many cities and towns. From pottery, buildings and artifacts archeology shows that an indigenous population could be called Iberian from before the eighth century. The Iberi name may not have been used for those people until several centuries later as migrating Iberi mixed with the natives. The region may have retained its distinctive culture while becoming identified with immigrating Iberi.

          The Iberi name was important; we should not underestimate its significance for the native populations. It was applied not only to people but also to geographical features and locales. The river that flows from the Cantabrian (Celt-Iberian) mountains in northern Spain to the eastern coast of Catalonia (may be Ca-r-talonia like Cartali Kingdom in ancient Georgia) was called the Iberus by Strabo. Elsewhere he calls it the Iber, 3.4.10. The river Iber received its name from the people of Spanish Iberi. Today it is called Ebro.

          The Cantabrian Mountains received their name from the Cantabrian tribe of the Iberi who occupied the northern sections of Spain along the Atlantic coast. The Cantabri name is made up of two elements, Cant + Ibri. Other names show themselves related to the Iberi. Evora in the Evora district of Portugal was once called Ebora, an evident Iber/Eber name. Both the Aviero and the Beira regions of Portugal may be Iberi names. Other names, such as Miranda de Ebro (may be Ibero) and Villafranca del Bierzo, may reflect this ancient influence.

          The Iberi trail does not end with the Iberian peninsula. It continues north to Ireland. The name Ireland comes from Old English Iraland from Yra-land. In turn Yra comes from an older Irish Eri. (Eri in Georgian traditionally means the nation). The Irish Eriu, with its inflected forms of Eirinn and Erin, comes from the Old Celtic Iveriu, with the accusative and ablative Iverionum and Iverione.

          The first recorded mention of Ireland was by the Greek explorer Pytheas in the 4th century BCE, who traveled beyond the straights of Gibraltar and north along the English coast to Iceland. He called Ireland I’erne, as did the classical Greek writers after him. The Roman name used by Julius Caesar was Hibernia. Pomponius referred to it as Iuvernia.

          The -an ending on proper names is an old Latin practice which is also found in many other Indo-European languages. English has African for Africa, American for America, Russian for Russia, and so on. Without the “n” Hibernia becomes Hiberia and this is the familiar Iberi. The Old Celtic Iveriu with a “b-to-v” shift is Iberiu and this also is the familiar Iberi name.

          Other evidence points to the origins of the Irish Iveriu. The Lebor Gabala Erenn, “The Book of the Taking of Ireland,” is a medieval work which attempts to describe the history of Ireland. According to those accounts one of the later people to invade Ireland were the Sons of Mil. They first occupied a land called Scythia. They came to Ireland through Crete, Sicily, Corsica and Spain. This is the folklore explanation for the lack of serpents in Ireland.

          According to the traditions a grandson of Gaodhal named Niul married a Pharaoh’s daughter named Scota. Her name then became the ancient name Scotia by which Ireland was known to many people. (This name was later transferred with the migration of Irish people to Albion — Scotland.) After sojourning in that land for some generations a certain Bregon, one of their number, heard of Inisfail, the Island of Destiny. Bregon built a tower in Spain and from there his son Ith was able to see the magic land. Ith set sail for Ireland to investigate but the Tuatha de Danann, who were in control of the island, was suspicious of his motives and killed him.

          His kinsmen, the eight Sons of Mil, invaded Ireland to avenge his death. Most prominent of the eight were Donn the king, Amairgen the poet and judge, Eremon the leader of the expedition, and, most important to our study, Eber. With a large body of people they defeated the Tuatha and took control of Ireland. According to some older Irish scholars the Sons of Mil reached Spain in the 5th century BCE.

          The old Irish folk tales, including the Lebor Gabala Erenn, show many distorted folk traditions mixed with segments that must be based on actual events. The scribes who put these stories together in the eleventh and twelfth centuries had strong faith in their source materials, even though they did not fully understand them.

          According to the stories Eremon and Eber divided Ireland between them, with Eremon receiving the north and Eber the south. In the new era that is being inaugurated Eriu will be the “high ship” of the Sons of Mil. To them and to Lugaid, son of Ith, will be traced the lineage of all the tribes of Ireland.

          The time of those migrations would be in the seventh and sixth centuries BCE, eventually reaching Ireland.

          But what about: Cuvier, Nei and Roychoudhury, and Ovchinnikov
          But what about: Cuvier’s (1790) classification? But what about: Nei and Roychoudhury’s (1974) the three major races of man? But what about: Ovchinnikov’s (2000) Neandertal specimen from the Caucasus?
          See: Ethics and Anthropology, Annals of the New York Academy of Sciences, Volume 925, p.p. 9-24.

          The Tutankhamen DNA

          iGENEA exclusively publishes the Y-DNA profile of Tutankhamen and starts the search for his last living relatives.

          In the year 2009 extended DNA-tests had been carried out with the mummy of Tutankhamen and other members for his family. These have only partially been published in February 2010. Despite several demands, the results of the Y-DNA tests have been shut away.
          iGENEA was able to reconstruct the Y-DNA profile of Tutankhamen, his father Akhenaton and his grandfather Amenhotep III with the help of a recording of the Discovery Channel. The astonishing result:

          Tutankhamen belongs to the haplography group R1b1a2, which more than 50% of all men in Western Europe belong to. The haplography group R1b1a2 arose about 9.500 years ago in the surrounding area of the Black Sea. The migration of this haplography group into Europe started at the earliest with the spread of agriculture since 7.000 BC. In Egypt the contingent of this haplography group is below 1% and partially caused by European immigration during the last 2.000 years.

          Later, half of European men are directly descended from the famous Egyptian Pharaoh Tutankhamen, according to a Swiss study. Specifically, 70 percent of British and Spanish men, and 60 percent of Frenchmen are related to King Tutankhamen, according to the findings. The genealogical analysis of a study, carried out by a group of scientists in 2009, was recently published by iGENEA, a Zurich-based company that tracks down the genealogy of its clients through DNA testing.

          Georgia

          Georgia (საქართველო) is a country in Eurasia to the east of the Black Sea, most of which is located in the South Caucasus, while a portion of the territory lies in the North Caucasus. Today it shares State borders with Russia in the north and Turkey, Armenia, and Azerbaijan in the south.

          Georgia is historically a unitary, emerging liberal nation-state with an ancient historical and cultural heritage. Georgian civilization stretches back for more than three thousand years of history with an exclusive literary and artistic heritage. Culturally, historically, and politically Georgia is considered part of Europe; however, the official geographic classification of the country varies according to different sources.

          Sometimes Georgia is considered a transcontinental nation. The English name Georgia is a transliteration of the Hellenistic term (Greek: Γεωργία) derived from Georgios (Greek: Γεώργιος), a Greek name meaning “farmer”; Georgia here is indicative of farmland. Georgians used the Greek and Aramaic alphabets before adopting the Georgian alphabet, reformed by King Pharnavaz I of Iberia, which is not directly related to any other alphabet in the world.

          In 337, Christianity was declared the official state religion in the ancient Georgian Kingdom of Iberia. Geographically, Georgia is diverse and its natural resources are abundant. The mixture of Alpine zone in the Caucasus mountains and the subtropical Black Sea coast of western Georgia attracts many tourists, because the country is considered both an excellent ski resort and an excellent sea resort. Georgia has one of the most ancient winemaking traditions in the world. Georgian wine is characterized as naturally semi-sweet and very competitive to French, Spanish and other Western European wines and is well known around the world, especially in Eastern Europe. Georgia has been called the birthplace of wine, due to archeological findings, which indicate wine production back to 5000 B.C.

          Origin of the name Georgians call themselves Kartvelebi (ქართველები), their land Sakartvelo (საქართველო), and their language Kartuli (ქართული). These names are derived from a chief called Kartlos, said to be the father of all Georgians. According to the legend Kartlos was a son of Targamos, grandson of Biblical Japheth.
          Plaque portraying St George slaying the Dragon. 15th century cloisonné enamel on gold. 15X11,5 cm (National Art Museum of Georgia)
          .
          The foreign name Georgia, used in many languages of the world, is derived from Greek: George (Greek: Γεωργ), a Greek name meaning a farmer and therefore Georgia (Greek: Γεωργία) indicating a farmland.

          The Eastern World knows Georgians as Gurjs via the Arabic Jurj and Persian گرجی Gurji. The Persian designation for the Georgians, گرجی Gurji, is also the source of Turkish Gürcü (pronounced “Gürdjü”) and Russian Ãðóçèí (“Gruzin”). The name of the country is Gorjestan in Persian, Gürcistan in Turkish, and Ãðóçèÿ in Russian (“Gruziya”).

          Historically, the dominant province of Georgia was Kartli or [Ka(r)tali], also known as Iberia. Kartli or [Ka(r)talon], or Iberia was the seat of Georgian government in most parts of Georgian history. The name Iberia is confusing the geographers of antiquity, because the historical relation between Caucasian Iberians and the Iberians from the Peninsula is certainly not known, but new archaeological evidences of their metallurgical and agricultural skill as well as a new genetically evidences support a theory that they came from the eastern shores of the Mediterranean Sea.

          There is also another way to spell Iberia as Iveria influenced from Armenian words for Georgia, respectively the ancient form of Virk (Վիրք) and the modern Vrastan (Վրաստան). There are also lots of legends and theories about the name of the country and most of them are not historically proven and correct. The name Georgia has been mistakenly supposed to come from the country’s patron St. George.

          According to more arguable theory, the name Georgia related to the Persian word – wolf (gurg or gurch), object of an old cult by the Caucasian peoples, hence Gorges-tan or later Gurji-stan – land of wolves. Only after that the names were developed: Gyorgi (in Georgian), George (in Latin), Gurzin (in Russian), Gevork (in Armenian) and etc.

          Mr. Bizina Savaneli, Dr., University Professor, Ph. Dr.

  3. mm

    that younger girl makes me sympathize with pedophiles. Shes just so cute, I would love to eat her(IF YOU KNOW WHAT I MEAN)

  4. Bay Area Guy

    Interesting post. This highlights the fact that white nationalists are insane to not include more people as white, especially when they’re technically white. The Persians, many (though not most) Indians, Turks, Pashtun, and others could qualify as white. From a practical standpoint, it makes sense for us to include these groups as whites, so as to increase our numbers.

    Therefore, the restrictive definition of whiteness used by white nationalists alienates others, reduces our numbers, and ultimately hurts white advocates like you and me.

    • Sure, I don’t have any problem saying that all Iranians are White. They sure look White to me. Many Pashtuns look awful White too, real White in fact. As far as Indians, it gets tricky, but clearly there are some White Indians. We have Punjabis around here, and many of them could easily pass for Iranians, Turks, Greeks, Jews or Italians. Sometimes I just some Punjabi guy is just some White dude until I hear him talk.

      The Turks are tricky. At the very least, we could be a little dicky and say that 35% of Turks are “White Turks.” The rest aren’t quite as White, but I’m not really sure they’re not White either.

      I hate to be a dick, but I would gladly trade some of these low-class Blacks and illegal alien Hispanics in my town for some Iranians, Afghans, Punjabis, and I guess even Turks. The Iranians, Afghans, Punjabis and even Turks that I have known in California have generally been quite well behaved. They would fit in quite nicely in any White community.

  5. Francesca Pinho

    I read from somewhere that Indians from the Southern part of India are the most ancient caucasians or something like that.. Is this even true?

    To me, Indians and Arabs look alike. What are some distinct features to distinguish between North/South Indians and Arabids? As in facial features and stuff?

    • The oldest living remains of the ancient Caucasian phenotypes are found in the Indians (especially the Dravidians), the Berbers (especially the Mozabites), the Kalash (Pakistan) and the Bedouin Arabs. The Arabs are pretty old too. The Caucasus is also a zone of very ancient Caucasian development, but I don’t know how many ancient types are left. I’d say few.

      In Europe, the Sardinians, the Basques and the Lapps are very ancient. The Lapps are the most ancient of all.

      • NonKoolAidDrinker

        What do you mean by “ancient Caucasian phenotypes”? Early Caucasians were broad featured, heavy jawed and had prominent brow ridges. They weren’t gracile and fine featured like Meds or Semites. They looked nothing like Bedouin Arabs or any of those other groups you named, except maybe some Berbers. The Berid type of southwestern Europe probably comes closest to the original Caucasian phenotype.

  6. mm

    haha, lol.

    BTW, have you heard of the blog lesswrong.com

    I find it very interesting.Its main subject is improving human rationality, with reference to Bayesian statistical reasoning.

  7. A couple of things Robert. Firstly, when you write:

    “Roman Literature: In the Septuagint…”

    … it sounds like you’re saying the Septuagint is “Roman literature”, but it was the first Greek translation of the Bible, so how could it be Roman?

    Secondly, I think the “white nationalists” you refer to, who get mad when you tell them that some Arabs are white, are the Stormfront/ Vanguard types. There are a lot of white nationalists who are more open-minded about these things. As for me, I am (by most accounts) white nationalist and I don’t have a problem with many Arabs, Persians etc. being “white”. I certainly don’t have a problem with some of my own ancestors being “Arab”. When I lived in Israel, my best friend was Yemeni and he was very fair complexioned. When we were out in public, people assumed that I was Yemeni (I’m Ashkenazi) and that he was Ashkenazi. We had some fun with that.

    One last thing. You could have mentioned the possible link between Spanish Galicia and Polish Galicia.

  8. Yes, they did. Asian Georgia was anciently called Iberia. Vasco- Caucasian people originally lived there, but were driven out around 8000 BC by Nostratic Kartvelians. They migrated to central Europe. The Basques went on ahead to spain, their relatives the Iberians hung out for a while in Bohemia. Around 6000 BC, they were pushed out by expanding Indo-europeans. The Iberians then moved to Spain and the British Isles.

  9. So I’m afraid the Tibarenians and Moschians are a little too late to be our friends, though they are proboably distant relatives. When the Iberians got to Spain, the ones in Andalusia mixed with the Capsian proto-Berbers they found there. These became the Tartessians whose city Tarshish is mentioned in the Bible. The Lusitanians started out Iberian but became very strange when they later mixed with Wenedians, PIEs who were neither Celtic or Germanic. These are extremely ancient movements of people we are talking about, the Biblical stuff is recent in comparison.

  10. Since you don’t have a blog about the Veneti yet, let me just say they are a lost branch of Centum PIE. They lived in Northern Europe between the Somme and the Vistula at first. They were related to the celts and Germans, but were distinct from both. Their relatives busted them up around 2000 BC, and their survivors scattered in all directions. They turned into the Balts, the Veneti of Italy, the Veneti of Brittany, the Lusitanians, the Liburnians and even the Tocharians!

  11. Aydın AGCA

    Hello, I am a Circassian.
    Search Circassians(Abazas, Adyges, Wubıhs,). They were the first people of Caucasia. Georgians were living south part of the Caucasia(Transcaucasia). [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Georgia_(country)].
    And in the maps of this link Colchida was Abkhazia(Abazia), and they are Circassian. Georgians are not even Caucasian. I read a book on “Xabze” (“x” is a specific sound in Adyge language), and it was saying that Celts(Today Irish people, Scottish people and other Celtic groups), Basques and Hattis(before Hittites) were from Caucasia. I understand that all these groups and Circassians lived together and are relatives. If you search this link (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dolmen), you will see that there is a common DOLMEN culture. The DRUIDIST belief of all these people were common, too. These must be studied on.
    Thank you.

    • Thermic

      Yes, as a Georgian I can confirm that Georgians are not ethnically Caucasian.

      Most of the Caucasian ethnicities were uncivilized tribesmen and poor mountain people. Due to their low national enthusiasm, they are on a verge of extinction today. Georgians were much more technical than that and had a proper identity.

      I am really glad that we aren’t.

  12. Nicholas

    hello circassian dick, of course Georgians are not even Caucasians, although the oposite was thought by all ancient authors, despite the fact that they have an unbroken line of their nationality and statehood of some 3000 years or more, their own unique script since c.5 a.d. (at least), and their glorious history. Nevertheless they are not, while you are, you sircassian savage, son of the tribe which has never had any statehood or even a embryo thereof, all the way down your shameful history, to say nothing about complete absense of any historic document writen in your savage language, which has no word for see (your ancestors have not seen a see, so why should they), leave alone a script of your own. Despite the fact that according to your Xabze it is a shame to work for a male, just as shame is to read and write, the only virtue for him is to rob and fuck and that’s all. That is why you are poised for extinction and thank God you are. But take it easy, as you are (or at least believe so) a proud Caucasian who is going to bid us farewell. Adios my stupid proud friend, and all your stinking folk, adios!

  13. Navarre(Basque country) is the true promised land.Top secret

  14. Yale teaches that there are White arabs..There are Arabic whites just like there are Oriental whites..Look at Russia.

  15. Pingback: Georgia The Basque country The 2 Iberias | Yeah 5G

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