The Proto-Indo-Europeans and Their Early Descendants: Proto-Languages and Homelands

The Indo-European languages include most of the languages of Europe, Iran and Northern India. For instance, English, Gaelic, French, Spanish, Portuguese, Italian, Dutch, German, Swedish, Norwegian, Lithuanian, Latvian, Ukrainian, Belorussian, Polish, Czech, Slovak, Romanian, Bulgarian, Russian, Greek, Albanian, Armenian and Kurdish are some of the better-known IE languages of Europe and the Near East.

In Iran, the major language, Farsi, is IE, as is the major language Pashto in Afghanistan. In India and Pakistan, the huge languages Hindi, Urdu and Punjabi are all IE.

They go back to a proto-language called Proto Indo-European, or PIE. In that the languages are all related, the truth is that the peoples are all related to for the greatest part. So Northern Indians, Pashtuns, Iranians, Kurds and Armenians are all closely related to Europeans since they all sprung in part from a common source, in the famous words of Sir William Jones, who discovered the IE languages in the late 1700’s.

Going back 6,500 years, we can reconstruct Proto-Indo-European quite well. One of the best resources is Julius Pokorny‘s Proto-Indo-European Etymological Dictionary (or Indogermanisches Etymologisches Wörterbuch).

Originally written in German, this incredible 2,500 page masterwork has been translated largely, but not completely, into English. One of my favorite pastimes is wading through this monster. I have a downloadable copy on the blog here (huge file).

The homeland of the Indo-Europeans is the subject of much debate, but the modern consensus centers around putting the homeland at 6500 years before present (YBP) around Southern Russia. I have narrowed it to southern Russia, southeastern Ukraine and southwestern Kazakhstan north of the Caucasus. This is more or less the region in between the Black and Caspian Seas.

An arid region called the Kuma-Manych Depression is in the middle of this region and seems to be a major center of PIE culture. I could not find a map of the Depression, but it separates the North Caucasus from the Russian Plain.

There were also settlements in southeastern Ukraine near the Sea of Azov, about 50 miles north of the Caspian Sea in southwestern Kazakhstan and up around the Lower Volga Region near Samara. A good word for this general region is the Pontic-Caspian Steppe.

The homeland of the Proto Indo Europeans, as of 6,500 YBP. I looked around for good maps of the PIE homeland but I could not find any, so I drew my own. Copyright Oakhurst Technology 2009.

The homeland of the Proto Indo-Europeans, as of 6,500 YBP. I looked around for good maps of the PIE homeland but I could not find any, so I drew my own. Copyright Oakhurst Technology 2009.

From there, it’s not really known how or when the Proto-Indo-Europeans spread out, but they show up in Europe some time later. A good map of their migrations or conquests is here.

The PIE people had several advantages over their neighbors. They were already into the Bronze Age for one, and not only that, but there were horses running around Southern Russia. The PIE had managed to domesticate the horse. That’s quite an advantage, but the PIE people did one better.

They even invented a wheel. Then they logically put the two together and made horse-drawn chariots. With these chariots, the PIE people apparently conquered much of Europe and later parts of Southwest Asia and South Asia.

The people in Europe at this time were pre-PIE folks. We know little about their culture, but the master of PIE culture, the celebrated professor Marija Gimbutas (A woman!) calls it “Old Europe.” Old Europe is very little known or understood. A probable surviving language from Old Europe is Basque. Another, long extinct, is Etruscan.

The very early people of the British Isles, whose descendants are now known as the Black Irish, populated the Isles between 9000-11000 YBP. They had dark hair, dark eyes and very pale skin. Genetically, they seem to resemble the Basques and may have come on boats from Spain.

The Basques themselves and related peoples may have come from the Caucasus long, long ago. Although Basque is said to have no living relatives, I believe it is related to Caucasian languages like Chechen and Ingush. Throughout Europe one finds folks called Black this and Black that.

I had a girlfriend who called herself a Black Swede and later on, a girlfriend named Linda of Polish heritage. Both had very dark, curly hair, dark eyes and very pale skin. As a guess, these types of Europeans may be the remains of Old Europe.

Gimbutas is also the founder of the Kurgan Hypothesis, which is currently the best PIE theory out there. Gimbutas (photo) sort of lost it towards the end when she got into “Goddess worship” and whatnot, but it’s clear that this Lithuanian archeologist was one of the great scholars of our time.

Some time after 6500 YBP, PIE began to break up, but no one knows quite how this occurred. At any rate, by 4200 YBP, a split had occurred in PIE and a separate language had broken off, Indo-Iranian. There are maps out there of the Indo-Iranian homeland, but I don’t like them all that much so I made my own. My best guess was to place it in the far north of Kazakhstan and just over the border into Russia.

From there, after 3500 YBP, the Indo-Aryans moved out and migrated into Afghanistan, Pakistan, North India and Iran. Many people in these regions today speak Indo-Iranian languages descended from these people. These folks are thought to be the source of the famous Aryan Invasion of India at around this time.

A map of the Indo-Iranian Homeland in far northern Kazakhstan around 3,500 YBP. This is where the Iranians, Afghans, North Indians and many Pakistanis came from. Copyright Oakhurst Technology 2009.

A map of the Indo-Iranian Homeland in far northern Kazakhstan around 3500 YBP. This is where the Iranians, Afghans, North Indians and many Pakistanis came from. Copyright Oakhurst Technology 2009.

As I noted, the process whereby these languages split off, other than the Indo-Aryan split, is little known. However, assuming this tree diagram is correct, maybe it can shed some light on the matter.

A very interesting tree diagram of the IE language family.

A very interesting tree diagram of the IE language family. Click to enlarge.

Unfortunately, this chart is hard to read, so I will try to decipher it. The first thing to note is the Anatolian split in the tree, apparently the first split. There are problems with the date for PIE. A glottochronological study recently gave a date of about 8500 YBP for PIE, considerably earlier than the usual date of around 6500 YBP.

Promoters of something called the Anatolian Hypothesis have used this to suggest than an earlier language called Proto-Indo-Hittite was spoken in Anatolia 8500 years ago.

The Anatolian languages split off, and the PIE speakers moved to the Pontic Steppe. The movement of Proto-Indo-Hittite speakers out of Anatolia to the Pontic Steppe to form the PIE people may be related to the Black Sea Deluge Theory which has recently been proven correct.

The Black Sea expanded dramatically according to this theory as, around 7600 YBP, a waterfall 200 times the size of Niagara Falls (!) poured through the Bosporus Straits, transforming the pre-Black Sea freshwater lake into the present-day brackish (part-salt water, part-fresh water) Black Sea. Soon after this event, PIE culture appears in the Pontic Steppe.

This is a very controversial proposal called the Indo-Hittite Theory, but I have long supported it. The late Joseph Greenberg, one of the greatest historical linguists that ever lived, also supported it.

This theory holds that Indo-European has two branches, Indo-European proper and the Hittite branch. The Hittite branch is related to the other branch only in a binary fashion. There is good evidence for this.

The Anatolian languages, all of which are now extinct, are very strange and seem distant from the rest. The appear archaic and have retained many forms which seem to not be present on the rest of IE. My guess is these are archaic forms.

Anatolian lacks grammatical gender – masculine:feminine, an IE innovation spread through the family. Instead, it has an archaic noun class system called animate:inanimate. This is reminiscent of ancient Niger-Congo languages in Africa. In addition, the Anatolian vowel system is reduced (fewer vowels) and the case system is simpler.

Many basic IE vocabulary terms are simply missing in Anatolian. All of this debris tends to add up to the hypothesis of an ancient branch of the language family.

Tocharian is visible on the diagram as Italo-Celtic-Tocharian. This branch is extremely strange, since Tocharian was spoken way over in Asia near East Turkestan and Kyrgyzstan, and Celtic and Italic are spoken in the heart of Europe. This is the area where the mummies with blond hair and blue eyes have been found. Tocharian may have split as early as 6000 YBP.

The Tocharian language is also very ancient and strange and is only distantly related to the rest of IE. If anything, it seems to look somewhat like Anatolian.

A very ancient branch of IE also split off around this time. Known as Balkan or Paleo-Balkan, it may also have split off 6000 YBP. There were two major branches, Thracian and Illyro-Venetic. Thracian is extinct, and all that remains of Illyro-Venetic is Albanian, a very ancient IE tongue that is only distantly related to the rest of IE. Proto-Illyrian and Thracian split around 4200 YBP.

Here is a map of the Illyrian tribes before the Roman conquest. It is from this milieu that the Albanians emerged. The Albanian language is quite strange within IE and seems to have very ancient roots dating back to Proto-Paleo-Balkan from 6000 YBP.

Another very early split you can see in the chart is something called Indo-Irano-Armeno-Hellenic. The Armeno-Hellenic branch probably split off 6000 YBP. The fact that Armenians and Greeks today still possibly retain a PIE appearance is also suggested by this early split. Only the Greek languages and Armenian remain of this family, as most of the family is extinct.

Proto-Hellenic may have split off around 5000 YBP, and Proto-Armenian may have split around 4500 YBP. The proto-Hellenics seem to have been related to the Indo-Iranians. This may be why a number of North Indians look like Greeks, Turks or Armenians.

Armenian and Hellenic are also strange IE branches that are only distantly related to the rest of IE.

The Italo-Celtic branch broke off as early as 5000 YBP. Proto-Celtic split about 2800 YBP; the homeland is in Northern Austria. The Hallstatt Culture is associated with them. The Proto-Italics are dated to around 3500 YBP in Italy. Before that, the Italo-Celtic Homeland is thought to have been in southern and central Germany, Poland and Czechoslovakia.

The fact that Italics (Italians and related languages) and Celts share common roots shows how insane and stupid Nordicism is, as Nordicists say that Italians south of the Po are ‘non-Whites.’ It turns out that those greasy dagos and those blond and blue guys in dresses blowing pipes in the Highlands are the same folks after all, as they share common genetic roots in Austria 3500 YBP.

Proto-Germanic also dates far back, with pre-Proto-Germanic possibly being spoken 3800 YBP in northern Germany, Denmark and Southern Scandinavia ( map). The homeland of the pre-proto-Germanics is in Southern Sweden and Jutland. They may have settled this area as early as 5000 YBP. These speakers may have been speaking something called Balto-Slavo-Germanic, a group you can see on the tree above.

Proto-Germanic proper probably dates from the Jasdorf Culture. The homeland of the proto-Germanics was in northern Germany, around Schleswig-Holstein south into the Lower Elbe region in what is now Saxony-Anhalt and the Hanover area.

It also extended along the Baltic coast of Germany to about the Polish border, down into Brandenburg and Mecklenburg. The original center of the homeland was in Schleswig-Holstein and Lower Saxony.

Balto-Slavic is also a very ancient branch of IE. Lithuanian is an ancient IE language that is very conservative and has retained many ancient IE reflexes that have been lost in the rest of IE. Proto-Balto-Slavic probably split around 4000 YBP. Proto-Baltic and Proto-Slavic split apart about 3400 YBP. Map of the Balto-Slavic homeland. This homeland encompassed Western Ukraine, Belarus and Eastern Poland.

Proto-Slavic, dating from 3400 YBP, seems to have its homeland in Northern and Western Ukraine and in Southern Belarus.

The proto-Baltic homeland dating from the same time frame is about the southern border region of Belarus around the Pinsk Marshes.

The rest of the splits, of Slavic, Italic, Celtic, Indian, Iranian and Germanic into their branches, are pretty well-documented, and all occur within the past 1500-3000 years.

Let us move to some interesting dilemmas about the Indo-Europeans. One is the distribution of R1a associated with the Indo-Europeans.

The map of the R1a lineage showing high concentrations in Central Asia and Eastern Europe.

The map of the R1a lineage showing high concentrations in Central Asia and Eastern Europe.

The highest levels of this haplogroup are found in Eastern Europe in a narrow band from the Black Sea in the Ukraine through Poland to the Baltic Sea and in Northern India and areas to the northwest around the Hindu Kush and the Pamirs, but that does not mean that these two groups are particularly closely related. Northern Indians are most closely related to Iranians and relatively distantly to Eastern Europeans.

The truth is that this haplogroup is only a signature of a split from around the Aryan-Greco homeland in the Pontic Steppe region discussed above. This left high levels of R1a in Eastern Europe and in north India. High levels in North India are not particularly notable but exist only due to a founder effect. Actually, the highest levels are not found in North India but in Kyrgyzstan, Tajikistan and north Afghanistan.

The high levels found in North India have led some to assume incorrectly that the homeland of the R1a people was in that area, but this is not the case.

A map of R1b DNA distribution. The homeland of the R1b line is the Maykop Culture, shown in the shaded pink region between the Caspian and Black Seas.

A map of R1b DNA distribution. The homeland of the R1b line is the Maykop Culture, shown in the shaded pink region between the Caspian and Black Seas.

R1b levels are highest in Spain and the Western British Isles. The launching point for the R1b seems to have been the Maykop Culture of 5500 YBP. From there, they spread all over Europe.

The Maykop Culture was an early PIE split that existed between the Taman Peninsula just east of the Crimea east to the Dagestan border in the area that includes part of Southern Russia east of the Crimea, Adygea, Karachay-Cherkessia, Kabardino-Balkaria, North Ossetia, Ingushetia and Chechnya in the Caucasus.

The center of the culture was around Maykop in Adygea (Circassia). The region is now inhabited by peoples of the Caucasus and is heavily Muslim.

An explanation:

The Proto-Indo-Europeans belonged both R1a and R1b. Their homeland was in the Pontic-Caspian steppe, in what is known as the Kurgan culture (7000-2200 BCE).

The presence of R1b in modern times between the Black Sea and the Caucasus hints at the Maykop culture (3500-2500 BCE) as their most plausible homeland, while the Eurasian steppes to the north were R1a territory. […]

A comparison with the Indo-Iranian invasion of South Asia shows that 40% of the male lineages of northern India are R1a, but only 20% of the female lineages could be of Indo-European origin (H, J, K, T, U).

The impact of the Indo-Europeans was more severe in Europe because European society 4,000 years ago was less developed in terms of agriculture, technology (no bronze weapons) and population density than that of the Indus Valley civilization.

This is particularly true of the native Western European cultures where farming arrived much later than in the Balkans or central Europe. Greece was the most advanced of European societies and was the least affected in terms of haplogroup replacement.

Native European Y-DNA haplogroups (I1, I2a, I2b) also survived better in regions that were more difficult to reach or less hospitable, like Scandinavia, Brittany, Sardinia or the Dinaric Alps[…]

The eastern branch of the R1a steppe people was the Andronovo culture (2300-1000 BCE), around modern Kazakhstan, which correspond to the Indo-Iranian branch of languages. Their migration to the south have resulted in high R1a frequencies in southern Central Asia, Iran and the Indian subcontinent.

The highest frequency of R1a (about 65%) is reached in a cluster around Kyrgyzstan, Tajikistan and northern Afghanistan. In India, 15 to 45% of the population is R1a, depending on the region and caste. Over 70% of the Brahmins (highest caste in Hinduism) belong to R1a1, due to a founder effect.

References

Pokorny, Julius. 1959, 2007. Proto-Indo-European Etymological Dictionary. A Revised Edition of Julius Pokorny’s Indogermanisches Etymologisches Wörterbuch. Published on the Internet: Indo-European Language Revival Association.

This research takes a lot of time, and I do not get paid anything for it. If you think this website is valuable to you, please consider a a contribution to support more of this valuable research.

50 Comments

Filed under Adygea, Afghanistan, Afghans, Albanian, Anatolian, Ancient Greece, Anthropology, Antiquity, Armenian, Armenians, Austria, Balkan, Baltic, Balto-Slavic, Balto-Slavic-Germanic, Caucasus, Celtic, Chechnya, China, Czechoslovakia, East Indians, Europe, European, Europeans, Genetics, Geography, Germanic, Germany, Greeks, Hellenic, History, Illyrian, Illyro-Venetic, India, Indo-European, Indo-Hittite, Indo-Iranian, Indo-Irano-Armenian, Indo-Irano-Armeno-Hellenic, Ingushetia, Ireland, Italic, Italo-Celtic, Italo-Celtic-Tocharian, Language Families, Linguistics, Maps, Near East, Near Easterners, Physical, Poland, Race/Ethnicity, Regional, Roman Empire, Russia, Slavic, South Asia, South Asians, Sweden, Tajikistan, Tajiks, Tocharian, Turkey, Ukraine, Uzbekistan, West Turkestan

50 responses to “The Proto-Indo-Europeans and Their Early Descendants: Proto-Languages and Homelands

  1. well, I am South Indian and I have a tall and long nose but its kinda prominent at the tip lol

    • Well you are mixed with the IE Indo-Aryans (your nose) and the indigenous peoples of India (Dravidian) possibly by your skin color.

      Most people of India are fairly mixed between “Dravidian” and “North Indian” to the point where it’s often kind of silly to split these two groups apart.

  2. but I am not pale.. my skin color is yellow or olive complexion

    • NonKoolAidDrinker

      last time I checked yellow was a light color. Olive can be light or dark.
      You don’t really believe the Proto IE’s were “pale” like Russian people do you?

  3. Bernie

    There’s a series of books in Amazon’s Kindle store by someone named William G Davey that compares the mythologies of the various Indo-European cultures. If he’s right, there are some very interesting similarities. You can actually see a lot of the King Arthur stories in Indian mythology, for example. I suppose it would make sense for these cultures to share mythological and religious beliefs, considering the fact that they share a common linguistic foundation.

  4. cursed

    Nice work Robert.

    Have you considered the Black Sea deluge theory and how it might have affected migration patterns?

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_Sea_deluge_theory

  5. Simon

    “The fact that Italics (Italians and related languages) and Celts share common roots shows how insane and stupid Nordicism is, as Nordicists say that Italians south of the Po are “non-Whites.” It turns out that those greasy dagos and those blond and blue guys in dresses blowing pipes in the Highlands are the same folks after all.”

    According to this logic does that make everyone that speaks English an Anglo-Saxon?

    Welsh is an interesting language, it is similar to Basque in construction but with “Celtic” words thrown on top.

    • “According to this logic does that make everyone that speaks English an Anglo-Saxon?”

      Nope, but it’s clear that Italics and Celtics share common genetic biological roots dating back to 2,900 YBP in Austria.

      • Guido

        It’s a big logical mistake to connect languages and the genetic origin of people. This method must fail. See: R1b-haplogroup is also to be found in Kamerun, Africa. Are they blonde? Blue-eyed? Not at all! Do they speak an IE language? No. Only some do, French, but this is because of colonialism.
        The dispersion of languages and the dispersion of genes are only weakly connected. As you see in modern times, US-Americans usually speak English. But most of their ancestors come from Germany, Italy, Eastern Europe, Africa, Ireland… but they speak English. Such dynamic processes occured in the past, too, and we don’t even have a clue, it’s much more complex and much of history here is not reconstructable.

    • NonKoolAidDrinker

      I agree with what you wrote but Scottish Highlanders aren’t blue eyed blondes as a rule.

  6. What do you mean by a ‘tall and long nose’?

    Which of these is a tall and long nose?

    My nose is exactly same as the first one and I am German..

    But the lady in the first pic is a South Indian..

    The second lady is Barbara Streisand.

  7. Are Dravidians supposed to have a broad nose and thick lips?

    I mean, I have seen really pale/yellow skinned Indians with a broad nose and thick lips and I have seen really dark skinned Indians with a very tall and long nose, thin lips and other caucasian facial features. I have seen the other way around too..

    Yeah, you are right.. Dravidians and Aryans in India are mixed its impossible to separate them.

  8. Are Dravidians supposed to have a broad nose and thick lips?

    Yep, they are pretty well mixed by now in many cases.

    • NonKoolAidDrinker

      Classic Dravid features are somewhat ful and broadl but still usually Caucasoid. The deep set eyes and general lack of facial flatness in Dravidian people as well as the tendency for hairyness are all Caucasoid traits.
      Actress Mindy Kaelin is a good example of a Dravidian women.

  9. lafayette sennacherib

    Wow , that was interesting. Impressive research. Dillon and Chadwick’s ‘the Celtic Realms’ also points out a lot of parallels between old Celtic/Druidic society and Brahminic tradition – shared words, myths, laws, even the reverence for cows.

  10. Indogermanist

    This article may have been some hard work, but you could have done it a bit more carefully.

    It’s absolutely crucial to look at recent developments in the field of historical linguistics before writing an article like this one. Referring to Pokorny (regarding nose shape and climate as reasons to develop nasal sounds), Gimbutas or Greenberg as the breaking news is way out of date.

    But when you refer to more recent theories, it would be appropriate to cite the author and not to pretend that it’s your very own new, ground-breaking

    Furthermore, I haven’t heard any Etruscan speak lately. Whereas Basque is still spoken today, Etruscan is definitely NOT a surviving pre-IE language.

    And: nose shapes are a very poor argument for assuming any genetic, linguistic or ethnic relation. My nose (long and thin) neither resembles my father’s nor my mother’s (but my grandmother’s). Should that mean, that I’m apparently not related to my parents, whose nose is obviously non-IE, even if I clearly appear to be squarely IE?

    Do not trust on appearances but rather on (fairly recent) ethnogenetic evidence.

    A student of Indo-European studies from Vienna, Austria.

    • The Indo-Aryans, Greeks and Armenians do have the I-E type nose theorized by Pokorny, so that is interesting. I did not mean to suggest that if you lack an Aryan type nose, you’re not an IE descendant.

      Etruscan has been fixed. I’m aware it’s extinct.

      I’m no Indo-Europeanist. I’m an auto-didact, an encyclopedist and ultimately a polymath and really just a dilettante. I’m just messing around here, not claiming to be doing groundbreaking work on anything. Guys like me are like shallow tidal basins, spread far and wide but not very deep.

      • Guido

        Recent models look like this i.e. in this article. I think it might be thrilling for you.
        http://www.washingtonpost.com/national/health-science/researchers-identify-present-day-turkey-as-origin-of-indo-european-languages/2012/08/23/6133c564-ed3e-11e1-b09d-07d971dee30a_story.html

        I personally find this very plausible. Turkey nowadys seems like a gap in the disparation of the IE languages. But the reason is of course movements, wars, catastrophies – Greeks, Persians, Arabs, Mongols, Romans and many others conquered this area or parts of it. After that a significant number of Turkmen immigrated over a long period of time. The old languages became extinct since the Turks came to power with the Osman empire. Even 1900 the majority in Istanbul/Constantinople was Greek – but all this is over. A lot of Greeks emigrated.
        Here again it would be mistaken to say: Turks of today = Turkmen that came here once. Most of the Turkish population originates from Armenians, Persians, Syrians, Greeks, Kurds and old nations like Lydia, Mitanni, Hittites and many others – even Vandals! However, a small Turkman dynasty came to power, founding a huge and stable empire and thus their language won.
        Imagine the Kurds would have prevailed in history instead of the Turks – there wouldn’t be an IE gap.

  11. Why do some North Indians have asiatic chinky eyes?

    Like the North Indian lady in the pink dress dancing at 3:00 of the video..

  12. Robert, there is no such language as “Hindu”
    There is Hindustani, which breaks into Hindi & Urdu (Undri) but no “hindu”
    Also you ought to pay more attention to genetic haplogroups to determine who is of IE descent and who isn’t.
    Some people I came across use haplogroup R and it’s sub gorups as a determining haplogroup due to it’s origin being in close proximity to the location of PIE.
    Plus most IE speaking people carry it today. I know most Pakistanis carry a high frequency of R1A. Western Europeans are mostly R1B North Indians R2.
    If you want send me an email, I’ll email you some haplogroup maps & charts I have saved in my PC.

  13. Mickey Dodds

    Here Robert you fall into another obvious pit-fall.
    Your claim is since that modern day Indians and Europeans both speak Indo European languages it means that both groups are genetically related.
    It is a basic principle of anthropogy and ethnography that shared language can never be taken as a proxy for shared descent.
    The obvious example is of American blacks.All speak English.English is the only language they can and do speak, but obviously it never was the language of their ancestors, nor did their ancestors ‘devise’ the English language.

    • Not true. I am not that stupid.

      But the North Indians are clearly related to Europeans. And they are clearly descendants of IE speakers in Southern Russia along with the Europeans.

      • Guido

        Clearly in Southern Russia? But why? Southern Russia has never been an adjuvant area for the development of higher culture and civilization. Climate and vegetation were hostile and the geostrategical situation was rather difficile. Not many important ressources to be found. The first civilization that originates at least partly in this area were the Khazars in the early medieval times – a people of Turk origin.

  14. yt

    I can’t see any relation between Maykop Culture and R1B DNA haplogroup.

  15. I’m not sure weather western Italic speakers and Celts having close genetics is due to a closer relationship between the two.

    A common theory is that the ancestors of modern French, Spaniards and Portuguese were Celts who had Latin imposed upon them by the Roman colonialists.

    They are basically ethnic Celts who switched to a Italic language.

  16. Also Armenians are mainly Caucasian to my knowledge with a significant but limited IE gene contributions mainly R1B

  17. Elida

    Apparently your noble efforts to link the current language with their origin are not fully matched with the right sources of information, especially when related to the albanian language.
    Albanian language as provided in the Webster Dictionary Language Tree and as widely and scientifically accepted does not descend from any language rather than itself. Your paragraphs on that matter are pure speculations that need to be corrected, if you would like to maintain the credibility of your writting and your language tree needs to be prepared based on reliable sources of information.

  18. Art R.

    Could the people that lived around the lake, in the depression that now forms the Black Sea prior to the opening of the Bosporus, have had one language? After the opening of the Bosporus, the people would have been forced out into the areas known as Turkey, Macedonia, and the Pontic-Caspian steppes. The main Proto-Indo-European language could have developed, as the preponderance of evidence is now suggesting, from the Pontic-Caspian Steppes. But, the others also developed from an earlier Black Sea centric language and would therefore be close to PIE in sound and syntax. This is why there are competing theories argued over by scholars. Maybe the Black Sea is in fact the center of PIE and not any of the surrounding competing areas!

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  20. bloorwest reno

    What a curious admixture of fact and fiction. The fiction is not your fault but stems from the fact that most theories were just that until proven by DNA evidence. The R1A evidence points to the ethnic origins of PIE to North India which would make sense given that the Indus valley originated an ancient civilization, not Russia or Khazakstan. Apparently the linguistic origins of Europe and Mid east are India and the genetic origins of Eastern Europe and Central Asia are Northern India as well. Consider ice ages as a reason why traffic went south to north not vice versa. Let us cry a little together over the fact that Apu-like people were originators of Europe to a great extent.

    • WRONG Hindu!

      The Europeans did not originate in North India. No one believes this. The only people who believe this are retarded Indian Hindus (that means most of them).

      The IE languages did not originate in India either, Hindu. The only people who on Earth who believe that shit are retarded Indian Hindus (which means most of them).

      Hindus are fucking retards! The stupidest humans on the planet. With the dumbest intellectuals on Earth, save the Afrocentrists.

  21. Paul

    Hi Robert, interesting reading. I have just been tested for my Haplogroup R1b M343 (M168, M89, M9, M45, M207, M173, R1b M343). I find that the migration routes that the genebase companies use are not very accurate. I have been trying to research a more accurate path of my people and your blog gave me some more things to think about. I am a newcomer to this research so maybe you could provide more insite. I believe my people were similair to the modern pygmies like the Khosian people of east Africa. Unlike the genebase companies that depict a line going across the Red Sea, I believe my people may have travelled north up the West Coast of the Red Sea possibly later giving rise to the Kushite people who ruled Egypt for some time. M89 was part of the second wave of migration out of Africa so I assume they made their way through the Saharan gateway and spent a few thousand years living and breeding in the Fertile Cresent and the Levant. From there I believe they took refuge in Anatolia until the great flood where they headed east to the edge of the Caspian Sea. Here they gave rise to the Lezgine people of Azerbaijan. M9 became early farmers in Europe as part of the neolithic culture and remained in the Caucasus region for sometime. I believe the Lezgines may possibly be my indigenous group however my Grandfather Father and Son are very Basque looking . M45 My people then moved north along the Danube river and finally made their way south west to the Bay of Biscay (Iberia) where they gave rise to the Basque people. After the Ice Age finished they started to make their way into Europe (Cro Magnon)then to the british Isles where they gave rise to the Brtigantes tribe. Alternatively they may have gone north to the Hindu Kush (M45) but I do find it strange that they would go all the way to that part of Asia. Anyway thanks for the article I would be happy to hear some feedback..

    • The Basques may certainly be related to the Lezgians, yes. Linguistically I mean.

      And the first Caucasoids were a cross between 2nd out of Africa Khoisan types with proto-Chinese, yes.

    • Paul,
      I agree, this makes a lot of sense! There is currently a discussion along these lines on worldfamilies.net R1b and subclades and I would like to reprint your comments here if you give permission of course. Also if you and Robert Lindsay would like to join the discussion here is the link:http://www.worldfamilies.net/forum/index.php?topic=11617.msg142671#msg142671
      Probably would have to sign up but it is free.
      Curtis Pigman(Pigmon)

      • Paul Brown

        Hi Curtis, That is fine, although I’m not too sure how accurate my hypothesis is. I believe the problem with my ideas could be the time line.

        I have done quite a lot of research since then and have had more tests done. It appears that my subclade is R1b1a2a (L150+). What is pretty definite is that Lezgines are my indigenous group and there is a good possibility that this is the first time my fore fathers developed the blue eyes and fair skin. I assume that they were part of the PIE group and were responsible for the development of carriages and domestication of horses.

        Another interesting thing I found out was that apparently there are some that are in the process of doing more research into SMP’s that flow on after R1b1a2a. these SMP’s havn’t been confirmed yet but they start with Z.

        Anyway look forward to the continuing discussions.

        • I am R1b-L2+(L196-and L-20-) ysearch.org id zhhcy
          The Hyksos (foreign rulers) of egypt is of great interest to me as I found out that I am a difference of 8 with King Tut. I have also been investigating the pygmies of India and surrounds. My comments are going very far on world families however.

          Here is a thread I started on there recently:
          As I have refined my methods of research over the last couple of years, my method on ysearch.org is:

          Maximum number of str’s and genetic distance of 6. This gives me a lower number of candidates to compare my markers to with much more accuracy given the quirkiness of R1b.

          Here is one of my closest matches: at difference of 6/51 FEPAF Lak_people_+_Ossetian_Modal(?)_R1b1b2a

          Besides Ossetia the Lak people are concentrated about mid Caspian Sea on the West side.
          From: http://usefulref.com/referencetopics/Inv_timeline/timeline/caucasus.html

          The word Caucasus derives from Caucas, the ancestor of the North Caucasians.[2] He was a son of Togarmah, grandson of Biblical Noah’s third son Japheth. According to Leonti Mroveli after the fall of the Tower of Babel and the division of humanity into different languages, Togarmah settled with his sons: Kartlos, Haik (Georgian:ჰაოს, Haos), Movakos, Lekos (Lak people), Heros (Kindgom of Hereti), Kavkas, and Egros (Kingdom of Egrisi) between two inaccessible mountains, presumably Mount Ararat and Mount Elbrus.

          This is revealing to me because I am not really a proponent of R1b origins from the steppe. This comparison between myself zhhcy and ysearch id FEPAF however indicates otherwise!

          Other matches at a distance of 5 or 6 are surnames Howe, Mauldin, Fortenberry, Bourbon, Lawson, Hamilton, etc.

          Could these be the forerunners of the Greeks and Italians?

  22. Robert or Paul,
    So could it be that R1b L-2+ are the Lak people on the Central West side of the Caspian Sea(Dagestan) and the R1b L-150+ are the Lezgian people?

  23. Pingback: Where did the Germanic peoples come from? - Page 22 - Historum - History Forums

  24. I think the Western historians are having double standards. When you articles on all European races Celtics/Iberians/Norse and so on they are blowing hot and bold i.e., barbarians but also well versed in agriculture/metallurgy etc., I don’t know what is meant by barbarians with production skills and cultured without production skills. I want Western historians to answer the following questions– why should all Vedic Gods are black– INDRA/VARUNA/NIRUTHI/YAMA/VISHNU while SHIVA/SURYA/SKANDA are red. In Tamil Red signifies white/yellow. In which part of India blonde hair and fair skin are worshipped? Why should All Indian Gods are all youthful without moustache and beard while all IE GODS ARE OLD WITH LONG BEARD/MUSTACHE? WHY DON’T IE GODS NEVER MATTED THEIR HAIRS UNLIKE INDIAN GODS . I wonder Western Historians have never heard about Chola inscriptions. Are Cholas Dravidian or Aryan ? Why do Tamils portrayed in Karuvur coins and Chola bronzes always have long nose/slender waist with little belly differentiating from Pallavas sculptures? Do the historians accept Cholas as Aryans? If Cholas were Aryans why do they wage relentless war against Chalukyas another Aryan tribe? Why did they promote Tamil? Why did they adopt the social set up of Kadambas/Satavahanas– PATHINENBHOOMIYAR/THISAI AYIRATHU AINOORUVAR/VALANGAI/IDANGAI? WHAT ABOUT THE STATUS OF ABOVE GROUPS– Aryan or Dravidian? If Dravidian why did they follow Manu Law? Then who are Dravidians? Cholas/Pandias can never be Dravidians since Pandiyas are closely related to Ceylonese than any other Tamil group?What about Raichur doab– the cradle of Buddhism? The Ikshvakus can never be Dravidians. The Vokkaligas or Prakrit term of Ikshvakus are thus not Dravidians. Andhra was named as Karma Rashtra by Buddhists and adopted later by Brahmins. Then how can Kapus/Kammas/Reddys be Dravidians? The Mala/Madigas can never be considered Dravidians since they formed backbone of settlers of Karma Rashtras?Thus fair skinned nayars alone are Dravidians. Pulayas/Thiyas are of Srilankan origin and dreaded by Namboothiris as experts in witchcraft– the famous Kathavarayan Story. If Dravidians were experts in witchcraft/sorcery they cannot be Tamils since even during Sangam period Nakkirar vanquished sorceres a story connected with Tirumurugarrupadai. The Tamil speaking communities of Brahmins/Vellalas/Nagarathars don’t believe in it and St. Thirugnanasambandar and Arunagirinatha and Manikkavasagar vanquished them.Thus most of the Tamil speaking people are Aryans. The peculiar habit of marginal castes– PALLAR/PARAIYAR/VANNIYAR taking to fire walking/taking oath by burning camphor on the palm resembles Agni Pravesam/Draupathi/Amba’ s birth. The Pallars call themselves as Indra and their rituals bear close resemblance to Vedic sacrifices. How can the communities which worship Indra/Agni/Varuna be Dravidians? DRAVIDIANS are imaginery with no folklore/customs etc.,

  25. john Nevere

    Dravidians , I think are an indigenous people of India who built the Indus civilization

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