The Peopling of India

Repost from the old site. A very interesting post speculating about the peopling of the Indian subcontinent, with lots of pics of Indian racial types and attempts to categorize them.

The peopling of India is a mystery. As my Indian doctor told me, India is as old as dirt. There are various narratives in India, but none of them make any sense, as usual.

Hindus believe something like that Hindus have always been in India, so if you say anything scientifically different, the Hindu fundamentalist boneheads are going to freak out and probably even threaten you. Wonderful people, and surely as stupid as any Christian or Muslim fundamentalist anywhere.

Within India, there is a lot of debate about whether or not there was an Aryan invasion that conquered the indigenous Dravidians, relegated them to the South of India, and imposed a ferociously racist Hindu caste system on the darker Dravidians – with Whiter Brahmins and higher castes being on top and darker Dravidian types being put in the lower castes.

Actually, caste in India is quite complex. High caste Indians from South India are often quite dark, and lower caste Indians from the North can be quite light. However, there is a general tendency for higher castes to be lighter skinned. In particular, for Indian women, Whiter has always been better, and Indian women have been trying to lighten their skins for as long as anyone can remember.

It is also interesting that, although inter-caste marriage was supposedly forbidden and enforced with serious penalties, the Brahmins have been getting progressively darker down through the centuries. Gee, how did that happen? Race mixing! Horror of horrors!

The Aryan Invasion theory is actually most popular with Dalits or untouchables. Supposedly they had a paradise down there until these evil White Aryans invaded and imposed evil caste Hinduism on the natives. In truth, Hinduism may be as old as India itself.

Surely, it seems to date back before any Aryan invasion. It seems to be the case that the Aryans may have superimposed caste on native Indian Hinduism though, and caste probably did not exist in the original religion.

The Aryan Invasion theory is also popular with White nationalists, see they see it as normal that Whiter folks should declare themselves superior to, and treat like shit, darker folks. The notion that there are two separate races in India, darker, inferior Dravidians and Whiter, superior Aryans is often added to this. In truth, all Indians are best seen as one coherent group.

An interesting collection of Northern Pakistani types, who resemble in type the Northern Indians such as Punjabis. The guy on the left, I swear, could be a Greek fisherman and the guy with the slicked-back hair could easily be an Italian. The fellow on the right and the one on the second to left are more classic North Indid types.

I think it’s pretty hilarious that so many White nationalist morons say that this kid is not White. With a constricted mindset like that, WN is doomed for sure. Look real hard at this kid and tell me he’s not White. This is a Pashtun kid (with a non-human kid on his shoulders) from northern Pakistan – specifically, the area where the Pakistani Taliban and Al Qaeda leadership is thought to be hiding.

She’s not White? Says who? Says White nationalists, that’s who. Another interesting Pashtun from northwest Pakistan. This is where you find the most European-looking types in the area. They live in Afghanistan and Pakistan, with the greatest concentration in Nuristan, Kunar, Dir and Chitral. This girl could easily be an Italian.

A young Pakistani Pashtun girl with her little sister. I understand that these women are quite beautiful, but in this region, they go into purdah, or isolation, at puberty, and pretty much no one ever gets to see them anymore. They probably spend most of their time after that in a burka or some other stupid bag thing. Too bad. Nowadays, these poor girls are going to even have a hard time going to school.

An Afghan man from Chitral, where the most European types can be found. Take off the turban, put him on any street in America, and he’s just another White dude. I think that bin Laden may be hiding in the area of Chitral and across the border in Kunar and Nuristan, though Dir in Pakistan is the best bet of all.

Although he appears to be red-haired, he has actually died his beard with henna. I think this guy is from Afghanistan. Pashtuns describe themselves as Aryans, and say that they are the base that the European Whites came from. No one really knows, but the White European type that we know today probably came into existence with the spread of Indo-European across the continent 8,000 years ago.

White skin only shows up in Europe 9,000 years ago, and at 11,000 years ago, Europeans look something like Middle Easterners, so maybe the Aryans were the original Europeans. Who knows. Unfortunately, Hitler’s Nazi regime was roaming around in these parts searching for the original White man or original Aryan or whatever.

Hence the word Aryan, mangled by Nazis to idiotically mean Nordic, has fallen into disgrace. But it deftly describes all of these North Indid types we are looking at in this section.

Another Afghan Pashtun. Unfortunately, it is the Pashtuns who are leading the insurgency against the US in Afghanistan.

Interestingly, the Brahmins themselves have totally rejected this theory lately, so if someone vociferously rejects the Aryan invasion theory, they are probably high-castes or Hindu fundamentalists. The motivation is unsure, but they seem to be denying that caste is a bad thing or that it was imposed by evil invaders.

This is often leavened with dollops of caste is a good thing, or caste is normal, or caste hardly exists anymore talk, or other pro-caste propaganda. I have yet to meet a high-caste Indian who will denounce caste. If you ever meet one, please introduce them to me.

Recent research on the question is difficult, but there is a suggestion that an Aryan invasion may have occurred. Although all Indians are one major ethnic group, higher castes seem more related to Europeans and lower castes seem more related to Asians. There is also a northwest – southeast cline, with those towards the northwest being more European and those towards the southeast becoming more Asian.

Nevertheless, the best evidence is that Indians are a coherent race (they cluster together on genetic tests and there is no way to winnow out Aryans and Dravidians via genes) and they have been evolving, more or less in situ, with few outside inputs, for a good 15-20,000 years. Let’s call it 17,000 years. Where did the Indians come from prior to 17,000 years ago? Evidence suggests the Middle East.

What is interesting about this theory is that we know that Indians look like Aborigines until about 8,000 years ago, when they begin to transition to Caucasians. So does this mean that the proto-Indians of the Middle East were Australoid types? You tell me. Racially, peoples of either the Middle East or Europe are poorly known at such an early date.

Indians and Dravidians are outside Caucasoids (but not by much) on the Cavalli-Sforza genetic chart below, but we have to lump them into one of the big three, so to Caucasians they go.

Fig. 1: Click to enlarge and view. As you can see on this Cavalli-Sforza gene chart of the human race, Indians are just a bit outside Caucasians. It is true that Indians on some charts are the most divergent Caucasians of all. We may use this to deduce that Indians may be, along with Berbers, some of the most ancient Caucasian stocks on Earth.

After all, the European racial type is only known from about 9,000 years ago or so.

Just prior, they seem to have resembled Middle Easterners and way back, they have had dark skin and resembled Masai or Tutsis from Central Africa. On many genetic charts, Indians of both the northwest and the southeast tend to ride the divide between Asians and Caucasians very closely.So, while Indians are Caucasians for sure, they are starting to get towards Asians. North Indians such as Punjabis have 10-15% recent Asian genes to boot.

There are some ancient peoples in India who may represent the earliest Indians of all. Most Indians probably don’t want to believe this, as these folks are tribals who, while outside the caste system, are widely discriminated against.

This map shows the location of many of the obscure tribes described below that may be remnants of the first Indians. This old map uses racial classifications that are no longer used today. It is written in a foreign language, possibly German. Although it sounds creepy today, German scientists did a lot of good work involving the races of man in the early part of the 20th Century.

The notion that any investigation of race may lead to the Nazi catastrophe has curtailed most such research today, but intrepid folks like yours truly continue to venture forth where fools fear to tread.

Nagas of NE Asia, thought to be perhaps the original people of the area. The guy on the right looks Papuan, for Chrissake (Or does he?), while the guy on the left looks sort of SE Asian, but not quite. I put the Naga into a Tibetan Northeast Indian Race within Southeast Asians, but the situation is confused as to whether or not they should be lumped in with Tibetans or split off. If they were early Indian Australoids, they then bred in heavily with Tibetan types and got genetically swamped.

A nice looking young Naga girl. She almost looks Amerindian, especially Central American Amerindian, but that’s just convergence. Maybe a hint of SE Asian?

Indian Caucasians are clearly some of the most ancient existing Caucasians, except for the Kalash.

Kalash woman with her two girls in Pakistan. The Kalash are so diverse that they form an entire split in the Caucasian Race. In other words, among Caucasians, there are Kalash in one race and all Kalash in another vast race. I do not know what this means, but I am thinking that the Kalash may be one of the oldest Caucasians in existence due to their extreme genetic distance.


More Kalash. A woman and her son. The general theory is that the Kalash came from the Caucasus. If the Kalash indeed are the remnants of the most ancient Caucasians, the origin in the Caucasus is interesting because the Caucasus plays a major role in the formation of the Caucasian race as a nexus.

Other major nexuses are India, the Middle East and North Africa. Cavalli-Sforza suggests that the oldest Caucasians were two parts Asian and one part Black, this going back 40-45,000 years in Southern Russia (= Caucasus?). It is interesting to note that many Kalash have some Asian features. My theory is that the two Asian parts of the proto-Caucasians were Ainu types and the one Black part was a Masai-Tutsi type, but hey, I’m guessing.

There is evidence that Indians go back 44-63,000 years in India. Going back that far, they probably looked something like Aborigines, but no one is sure. The people along the coast were probably Negrito types.

The Garwhalis of far northern India. These people look a lot like the Kalash and may also be a very ancient Caucasian stock, this one probably from the Caucasus itself, which is where the mysterious Kalash arose. Some of these girls could walk down a street in a European city and no one would bat an eye. They could be Spaniards, Greeks, Albanians or Italians, but I am guessing. I could not place the Garwhalis into any race.

Nagas of Northeast India. Thought to be possibly be a remnant of the original people of Northeast India. They have a lot of Asian admixture. This one looks Tibetan. Genetically, they cluster with Tibetans.

More strange Naga people. The Naga have been fighting for a separate state for a long time now called Nagaland, and I support that struggle 100%. India has no right to any of NE India. India, go away.

The Indian proto-Caucasians seem to have bred in somewhat with Australoid types in India, but this is not at all clear except in the case of Tamils, who share skull affinities with Australoids. The general theory is that Indian skulls look like Aborigines from 8,000-40,000 years ago. Up until 5,000 years ago, Indians are quite muscular (robust), but then they become more gracile.

There are skulls going back 35,000 years in Sri Lanka, and more in Uttar Pradesh going back 45,000 years. According to one theory, Australia may have been settled from India. Tamil skulls do look Australoid, and resemble Papuans, Andamans, Senoi and Semang. There are stone tools in Sri Lanka dating back 22,000 years that are similar to the tools in Australia and Indonesia.

It is thought that these tools in the latter two countries came from India. The Veddas are the original peoples of Sri Lanka and predate the Tamils and Sinhalese, both of whom came about 2,000 years ago. However, in contrast to the India to Aborigine Theory, Vedda skulls do not currently cluster with Aborigine skulls, nor do Andaman Islander skulls.

Do look at many of the photos of Indians on this page who may be related to the original Australoids, possibly Negritos, of India.

A Yanadi boy peddling a canoe by the shore of the Indian Ocean in India. Some say Yanadis are the remains of the original Australoid inhabitants of India. The Yanadi live in coastal SE India.

An odd looking Nord Indid Banjara-Lambadi-Gypsy speaking a North Indian dialect. This woman is from Karnatiman, which is somewhere in India. Maybe the ancient proto-Caucasians of 20,000 years ago in India looked like this.

I do not think we see much left genetically of the original Indian Australoids.

Yanadi boys in India. As you can see, some look a lot like Aborigines. Fascinating.

A Yanadi girl from India. This photo was taken from a Black nationalist site where they were screaming about how these people are ancient Blacks. Party all you want over your fantasy. She is more Aborigine than anything else, if you look very closely. For the Black appearance, more convergence. Lots of folks of various races look Black, or Negroid. So what. Doesn’t prove relation.

Black or Negroid appearance, like Caucasoid phenotype or appearance, is probably just another endpoint for recent human facial evolution. Many races may end up either Negroid or Caucasoid appearing on a micro level.

The ancient Australoids of India now genetically and even (except in the case of the Tamils) anthropologically look like the neighboring Caucasian groups; we may be able to see older traces, but probably just that – traces. See these photos for those traces.

Super-commenter Joe Stickler calls these folks Indo-Melanids and calls them are proto-morphers (sort of anthropological shape-shifters). He notes that they are strongly stabilized and that they are certainly not Australoids.

A Gond boy from the Gond scheduled tribe in India. More aborigine appearance. The Gonds are thought to be the remains of the original Australoids of India. The Gonds are members of the South Indian Race along with the Munda, the Bhil, the Marathi, the Rajbanshi, the Oraon, the Parji, the Kolami-Naiki, the Chenchu-Reddi, the Konda, the Kolya, the West Bengal Brahmins and the Parsi. Gonds live in Central India. Joe Stickler* describes this boy as intermediate between Indo Melanid and Veddoid. He is actually fairly standardized. Note the Asiatic eyes.

A Vedda man from India. The Veddoids are thought to be one of the endpoints of Negrito evolution, in this case the remains of the original Indians. Veddoid Tamils do resemble Negritos, Papuans, the Senoi, the Semang and the Andaman Islanders and others in skulls. However, Vedda skulls do not resemble Aborigine skulls.

I swear I know a Chicano guy who looks a lot like this.

A Mardia Gond male from India. He could well be a descendant of an original Indian Negrito group. Note the very primitive hunter-gatherer lifestyle. The Mardia reside in Central India, south of the Gonds.

Indians have been evolving in situ, pretty much, without a lot of outside inputs, for about 17,000 years.

An Australoid looking man, or possibly a very early ancient Caucasian from India. Very interesting type.

The people of India are pretty closely related to each other, and form a compact and fairly unified group.

Che Guevara himself or any hippie from the 1960’s in the US, right in India. Interesting phenotype.

The Indian proto-Caucasians probably came from the Middle East to India about 20,000 years ago.

A very modern Caucasian looking woman from Rajasthan in the West of India. Going West, Indians get more modern Caucasian-looking. The ring must mean marriage.

Originally, the Indian proto-Caucasians may have looked like Arabs, but this is not known.

A very beautiful Indian woman. This woman could easily be an Italian, if you ask me. A very interesting looking phenotype. She looks hot. Commenter Joe Stickler describes her as a North Indid – Graci-Indid type.

There were Australoid types present in the Indian subcontinent when these new Caucasian people came to India 20,000 years BP, and they looked like Australian Aborigines.

A Santal man from another scheduled tribe in India. The Santal are also thought to be a remnant of the original people of India. The Santal live in NE India, north of Bangladesh in Jharkhand, West Bengal, Bihar and Assam.

Another odd looking tribal woman, this one from Goa. The ring through the nose thing must be a sign of being a married woman. Once again, I look and think, ancient Caucasian, but who knows. There is somewhat of an Amerindian appearance, but this is more synchronicity. This is another Nord Indid Banjara – Lambadi – Gypsy speaking a North Indian dialect.

The Indian Australoids were bred out or genetically swamped by the Caucasians from the Middle East and they have now just merged into Indian Caucasians.

Oraon women in Orissa. Another scheduled tribe thought related to the original Indians. Note the Negroid or possibly Negrito appearance. The Oraon are members of the South Indian Race described above. The Oraon live in NE India, west of Bangladesh near the state of West Bengal.

Very happy Irular kids in India. Once again, I think I am seeing some kids that look like Aborigines in this photo. Another possible remnant of the first Indians. The Irular are members of the South Dravidian Race, along with the Sinhalese, the Lambada, the Izhava, the Kurumba, the Nayar, the Toda, the Kota, the Malayaraya and the Tamils. This race, along with the South Indian Race, are probably the remains of the earliest Indians.

The Irulars live in the far south of India, southwest of the Yanadi.

More Irulars of far southern India. The Irulars are a scheduled tribe and hence are subject to affirmative action measures, which are quite controversial in India. They are very dark-skinned, as you can see.

A Malid Panyer woman from India. Blacks love to claim these folk, but really the connection is probably to the Aborigines of Australia. Big difference. Or she could well be the remains of the Indian Negritos. In fact, early racial scholars Eickstedt put them and the Gonds in with the Negritos of the Andaman Islands. The Malids live in far southwestern India, near the state of Karnataka and west of the Irular. Joe Stickler* describes Malids as a mostly unspecialized and primitive Veddoid type.

A very primitive-looking Kanikar man with a loincloth and a bow and arrow. Note the woolly hair typical of Veddoids. The face seems to have an Australoid appearance also. Early racial scholars classed these people as Negrito types. Probably among the remains of the first Indians. The Kanikar reside at the very southern tip of India. Joe Stickler* describes Kanikars as a mostly unspecialized and primitive Veddoid type.

A Panya Gond woman, probably one of the remains of the first humans to populate India. Note the woolly hair and Negrito appearance. Gonds reside in central India. Joe Stickler* describes Panyas as a mostly unspecialized and primitive Veddoid type.

Indians are also one of the most diverse Caucasian groups, as they tend to ride on the edge between Asians and Whites all the way through, from Punjabi in the north to Tamil in the South.

A Chenchu woman in India, another possible remnant of the ancient Indians. They are also in the South Indian Race. The Chenchu reside in Southern India, mostly north and west of the Yanadi. Joe Stickler* describes this woman as a strongly stabilized Indo-Melanid type with some Veddoid influence.

Chenchu kids, from a scheduled tribes in South India. Scheduled tribes are completely outside of the caste system, whatever that means.

A beautiful North Indian girl. As you can see, folks in the North can also be quite dark. India is a mysterious continent.

*A Sri Lankan commenter on the site with extensive knowledge of Indian racial types.

This research takes a lot of time, and I do not get paid anything for it. If you think this website is valuable to you, please consider a contribution to support more of this valuable research.

383 Comments

Filed under Afghanistan, Anthropology, Asia, Genetics, India, Pakistan, Regional, Reposts From The Old Site, South Asia

383 responses to “The Peopling of India

  1. WillG

    Now I know why Buddha statues have afros.

    • Paul

      Budha statue is showing the open 7th chakra which supposedly have 1000 petals. These are not curls but the lotus of the 7th chakra in full bloom, the sign of enlightenment. Learn something about spirituality before making foolish comments about a spiritual giant.

      • Ajay

        In any case, the buddha statues we see are just an artist’s concept of buddha (same for jesus). No one knows how the buddha actually looked like.

  2. Chris

    Man, I’m with all of your scientific data but when I look at those dark “Aboriginal” Indians all I see are my cousins and uncles except for the straight hair.

    Now, how far apart are Africans and Aboriginal types genetically?

    • Hi there. There is such a thing as parallel development. Sure they look like Blacks, and Afrocentrists like to claim those folks. They have nothing to do with Blacks whatsoever, and are very far removed from them. The reason they look like that is because they are part Australoid, like Papuans, Aborigines and Melanesians.

      A lot of people think Australoids are related to Blacks, but they have no Black genes and are about the furthest people on Earth from Blacks genetically.

      Go figure. The Australoids were the first race to break off from the Out of Africa Blacks 70,000 years ago though, so this may account for some of the resemblance, but European Whites are way closer to Blacks than Australoids.

      European Whites are the most closely related race to Blacks. Of the Europeans, Berberids and Arabids are the closest to Blacks.

      Berberids are extremely close to Blacks. On some charts, they plot closer to Blacks than to Whites! But we throw them in Whites because they look like White folks.

      I have little subraces in North Africa where one group looks pretty White and the other looks pretty Black and they are in the same group, like Nubians and Algerians. I had to toss one to Whites and one to Blacks, somewhat unscientifically, just based on appearance. I couldn’t really have Black folks in Caucasoids and White folks in Africans.

      • Azadwa

        why did you include Afghans/Pashtuns in this ? Pashtuns are ethnic afghans and live on the Iranian Plateau only not on the indian subcontinent!

        its ver offensive ! i am full afghan pashtun and have light brown hair and green eyes and i identify as afghan/pashtun only.

        Most Pashtuns live in Afghanistan:
        since the pakistani number includes 4 mio hindkowans (punjabis) and ppl who claim pashtun ancestry but can’t speak pashto and it also adds 3 mio afghan refugees regardless if pashtun or not since pashtun = afghan

        thats why the pakistani number says that 8% of pakis speak pashto as their first language but 15% is supposedly ethnic pashtun SMH

        also want to add that if ahmad shah durrani ( a great man ) wouldnt exist we would be sadly a part of iran !

        have you seen an average pashtun? they are VERY light skinned like my fam yet we pashtuns dont value light skin unlike pakis and indians!

        we have our own culture ( today is for example nowruz /new kaal or our pashtunwali / afghaniyaat ) , clothing ( compare afghan clothes /jewelry to indians , very different) , language ( which is TOTALLY different) and we and tajiks are culturally extremly similiar

        i hope you think about this thanks

        • Stupid idiot, they’re more Pashtuns in Pakistan than Afghanistan and we’re not not no freaking European, our facial features resemble close to dards from the Himalaya with haplogroup L, we have Aryan features not Germanic features with low cheekbones, if you take a light brown skin Caucasian face North Indian and add white skin on to the person, they would not look European at all, they would look like the Kalasha who are the original Indo Aryan people from the Rig Vedas, they tried this whole concept in Indiana Jones and failed, North Indian features of Aryan descent are different from European features and the haplogroups are way different also. Indians and light skin Kashmiris are one race, we Pakistani Pashtuns are dard and sometimes brown looking also, and Afghan Pashtun are Huns with semite features and haplogroup G2c also.

        • You Pashtuns value light skin and majority Pakistanis don’t, we Pahari are lighter than you and you still kiss european white arrse in the UK here.

  3. Prince

    Where do Indians really come from? Do North Indians come from Iran? Do south Indians come from the Middle east?

    I mean, I am very pale like a ghost and I am south Indian(Kerala) and I was wondering if I am caucasoid, negroid or australoid..

    • Hi, all the people of India came from the Middle East 17,000 years ago. There were already some Australoid types there and these new people bred in with them.

      A wave of European types from the Near East (Iran – Caucasus – Turkey) came to North India 4-5,000 years ago. You may call this an Aryan Invasion.

      If you are pale and have European features, you are related to these more recent types from the Near East. Most all Indians, genetically, are Caucasians. Some are Australoid on phenotype (skull) but not on genes. None are Negroid. You are clearly a Caucasian, but I think you are may be an older to ancient variety of Caucasian.

    • Aaromal Chekavar

      Kerala even though geographically is a part of south India, genetically its not. Nairs might have origated from Newars of Nepal, Eezhavas from Simhalese (eezham =srilanka). Muslims are mainly converted OBCs, but because of a strange reason many of them now-a-days look like Arabs ( you can guess what that “strange” reason is..genes don’t come from air).
      SC ST people look like aborigens, negritoes, and tamilians.

      Most of the kerala christians are basically nairs converted centuries ago ( They look exactly like nairs except for the “kontha” chain even though many of these them claim that they’d converted from brahmis, but they are not )

    • Eileen

      Iranians Parsee or other Iranian groups are prevalent in North India – Mumbai. Often they owned Clothing trade in India and China. However, In Iran they claim only 5% of their genetics from India. Why that is I’m not certain.

  4. Nicole

    Are you saying ALL indians are caucasians or Are Indians australoid?

    Can you help me figure out if these Indian women have caucasoid/negroid/australoid facial structures?

    South Indian lady(Tamil): http://img226.imageshack.us/img226/8066/200210101011010101011027cd1.jpg

    South Indian lady(Tamil): http://image1.indiaglitz.com/telugu/news/Trisha110308_1c.jpg

    Indian lady from Bombay: http://www.bollywood101.com/UserFiles/2008/11/19/bipasha-basu-001.jpg

    North Indian(Punjabi) lady: http://www.bollywoodmantra.com/albums/events/fashion-shows/chivas-fashion-tour/thumb400/neha-dhupia___54722.jpg

    Thanks !

    • All of those women have strongly Caucasoid features. No Indians have Negroid phenotypes. Some have an Australoid phenotype.

      Most Indians have a Caucasoid phenotype. Some Indians in the South have an Australoid phenotype. Those would be more like those Aboriginal types above in the post.

      • husayn

        sir u seem to be a bull shitter the dravidians are hamitic in type with straight hair and came from egypt went into the fertile crescent in syria made their way through the middle east they are the elamites elamites occupied all of southern iran and this is the travel route to get to northwestern india the dravidians have finer features than australian natives the noses are very different what bullshit do u talk about heremany of these pics do not show the dravidians properly the dravidians before coming to india were alsways straight hair to wavy it is mixing with the aryans of india that made them this way they are a unique hamitic race and you better believe they are from elamites who are from elam son os shem!the brown colors very they look nothing like the nicobar people?

      • rony

        if any southindian having caucasoid face, he mustbe a mixture…there was no india even 60years ago…afgan+pak+northindia+kashmir was the archich caucasoid’s birth place…..
        creating india is like joining australia+indonesia to build austro-nesia where some look anglo-saxon some look mongoloids

  5. Miriam

    Hi, Do you know any differences between Dravidians and South Indians? Are Dravidians and South Indians the same?

    Besides, If South Indians and North Indians are Caucasians(except for aborigines and North East Indians), How come they have different facial structures? South Indians tend to have rounder faces and North Indians tend to have very projecting chins..

    South Indian(Tamil) lady: http://s.chakpak.com/se_images/78999_-1_564_none/trisha-krishnan-wallpaper.jpg

    North Indian(Punjabi) lady: http://thebollywoodzone.com/blog/images/2008/01/neha-dhupia.jpg

  6. Pingback: Yet Another Traffic Record Set on Robert Lindsay July 11 « Robert Lindsay

    • husayn

      brother how can dravidians be caucasoid when they are not from Japheth son of Noah?they are from the dark straight haired elamites who are from ham and shem!the faris race are from lud son of shem who married shakbah daughter of japheth this includes the kurdish the middle eastern ones with black hair

      • Cyrus

        brother how can dravidians be caucasoid when they are not from Japheth son of Noah?

        Yah…Around here we tend to like to stick to hardcore scientific rationalism, thank you very much.

        Very tales are for children.

        • Cyrus

          Dammit. I meant “Fairy tales.”

          Shit.

        • Peter Aryan

          Since could not reply to you in the “India is a Shithole” article just want to say I am Irish, by nationality, but of Brahmin Punjabi and Brahmin Gujarati and some Irish/Cornish extraction ethnically.

      • Husayn

        Correction they are Canaanites the original sumerians and Phoenicians . E3b is a mix of canaanite types mixed with another hamitic type north africa or levant

  7. Ramesh

    Indians are basically an Australoid people probably mixed up to a small extent with Mongoloids but who turned Caucasoid as waves of Caucasoids entered the country from the North West. In any place you go below Delhi, the vast majority of the people are predominantly Australoids with some Caucasian infusion. It is only above Delhi that people become predominantly Caucasian in looks. And no, 95% of us do not look anything like Northern or Central Europeans. We do not cluster genetically with Europeans. Some of us may look like Greeks but the Greeks.

    What is interesting is that in the tests carried out by ancestry by DNA, where you are mapped between European, East Asian, Native Americans and Africans, Indians were about 50% European, 25% East Asian and about 11% African (The average Northern European or Irish were greater than 90% European while the average Japanese was greater than 97% East Asian). The rest was native American! But this anomaly could be due to Siberian populations moving to India in very ancient times. Siberians are closely related to Native Americans. Thus we cannot be put into any population group but form our own population group.

    • Using a 3-race model of Caucasoids, Africans and Asians, Indians are quite clearly Caucasoids on genes. If we add in Australoids, they are not Australoid on genes either. If we go by skulls, once again, Indians are Caucasoid. However, some Indians in the South who are Veddoid-like such as tribals and Tamils are Australoid on skulls. Genetically, Indians are not really that far from Europeans at all.

      They are quite close to Iranians, a Caucasoid people. Many Indians of the NW are quite Caucasoid or even European in appearance. We have Punjabis in my town and I often confuse them with Europeans.

  8. Ramesh

    We have Caucasian genes as our fathers were Europeans. But our mothers were Asians or proto Asians.
    http://www.scienceblog.com/community/older/2001/E/200115716.html
    “Bamshad’s study showed that each caste’s mitochondrial DNA, which derives from the mother only, has a greater similarity to Asians than to Europeans, but the upper castes show less similarity than do the lower castes. Conversely, Y-chromosome data, derived from the father only, show each caste more similar to Europeans, with the upper castes being most similar, probably because more Eurasian males migrated to India than did Eurasian females.”

    I wonder if proto Asian means Australoid or Mongoloid. Anyways if we are Asian from our mother’s side how can we be complete Caucasians? Would we not be half Caucasians?

    • You’re so farking stupid and your father was an R1a1 Indo Aryan rapist, your mother wasa a prostitute from dravidian lands, you’re not at all European, and I’m not either at all, my ancestry says I’m Scythian Saka from Massagetae areas that inhabited Siberia not even close to Europe at all.

  9. Ramesh

    You will find this funny. A bunch of Indians living in the U.S.A. discuss about race and India. It gives you an idea of what some Indians think of themselves as far as race is concerned.
    Warning: Strong language
    BTW, goras means whites, desis means south asians, kalus means blacks and sullies means muslims. Read from the bottom to the top of the pages.
    http://hindustan.net/discus/messages/211/7970.html?993131243
    http://hindustan.net/discus/messages/211/7972.html?994533030
    http://hindustan.net/discus/messages/211/7971.html?993511255
    http://hindustan.net/discus/messages/211/7968.html?991523501
    http://hindustan.net/discus/messages/211/7969.html?992275122

  10. Ramesh

    You will find this funny. Here some Indians living in the U.S.A discuss about race in India. You will get an idea about how some Indians percieve themselves and race in general.
    Warning: Dangerous language.
    Gora means White, Desi means South Asian, kalu means blacks, sullie means muslims.
    Read from the bottom to the top.
    http://hindustan.net/discus/messages/211/7970.html?993131243
    http://hindustan.net/discus/messages/211/7972.html?994533030

  11. Are South Indians caucasians too? I know that some Tamils do indeed resemble australoids.

    I have noticed that Tamilnadu and Kerala are close to each other but most people from Kerala have strong caucasian features but the tamils are australoid in phenotype.

    These are some South Indians from Kerala:

    Do these South Indians from Kerala have caucasian facial features?

    • All Indians are Caucasian on genes except for NE Indians and the Andaman Inslanders.

      All Indians are Caucasian on phenotype except for NE Indians (Asians) and Andaman Islanders (Australoids). Tamils are for sure Australoid on phenotype. Any Indian that looks a lot like a Tamil in that sense is also an Australoid. For instance, Yanadis, Gonds, Mardia Gonds, Panya Gonds, Veddoids, Irulars, Malid Panyers, Santalis, Kanikars, Chenchus and Oraons are all probably Australoids on phenotype.

      So really most Southern Indians are Caucasian on phenotype unless they have a strong Tamil type look.

      • Peter Aryan

        Andaman people are Australoid or intermediates?

      • husayn

        i have seen many tamils with brown to very dark colors look nothing like austrloid in features i know the features of tamils are not as u say!tamils are from a middle eastern hamitic race the elamites the dravidians have straight to wavy hair not kinky few have austroid features regardlees of being dark the ancient arabs had oval faces u lie sir i am of this background and i sure do not look lke australian natives they have wide nose dravidians have finer features whats wrong with your eyes

      • husayn

        http://www.topindiatravel.com/southindiatour/southindia-tour-packages.php
        brother features are different unless the dravidians migrated to australia our features are finer tamils and brahuis are from the dark middle eastern elamites these people in pic have different features whats wrong with your eyes even the darkest of tamils still have a unique feature

      • I myself am a Keralite, so let me answer this. The peoples of Kerala are Dravidian/Australoid. During the Islamic Invasion, many “Indo-Aryans” fled the North from the Turko-Afghans and the traitorous Aryan/Australoids who sold out to Islamic power. They found refuge in Dravidian lands, and intermixed with the population. That’s why occasionally in Kerala, you might see some “Indo-Aryan” looking types.

        I can tolerate them as long as they realize they are guests in Dravidian lands, and they must speak a Dravidian language. They cannot support India, the number one enemy of the Dravidian peoples.

  12. if the upper caste Indians are related to Europeans and the lower caste Indians are related to asians, What about the middle caste Indians? Who are they related to?

    Besides, Lower caste Indians are related to asians? What asians are you referring to? East asians?

    • I don’t think that lower caste Indians are closer to Asians really. They are just the original people of India, that’s all.

      Mid-caste is somewhere in between.

      • husayn

        http://jackgruber.com/athens/iraq-2/
        soccer player on right in green is morrocan and resembles tamil people

      • husayn

        The Muslim historian Muhammad ibn Jarir al-Tabari (c. 915) recounts a tradition that the wife of Lud was named Shakbah, daughter of Japheth, and that she bore him “Faris, Jurjan, and the races of Faris”. He further asserts that Lud was the progenitor of not only the Persians, but also the Amalekites and Canaanites, and all the peoples of the East, Oman, Hejaz, Syria, Egypt, and Bahrein before i read this i dreamt the faris people of iraq and iran are same as the people of the and i see myself in iraq because this is my heritage as well i have dreamt of Prophet Muhammad PBH more than8times in last dream of him in dream i am being told i am not from among his descendants and i ask him what about the indians he just had a nice smile this is what made me interested!before i had a negative view of what hamitic was and i dreamt of many hamitic types ones with straight hair and resembling dark indians but not australoid natives i also read the dravidians came from egypt i did not believe this same night i dreamt a description of the dravidians in dream it said hamitic in type with straight and were also egpytians also i dreamt of the fertile crescent which i had no idea about before in dream it is saying the draividians came from the fertile crescent in syria close to the sea and also i read the brahui dravidians claim they are from aleppo i looked up aleppo and it is in syria close to the sea 1 or 2nights after i dreamt the dravidians came out from egypt went into the fertile crescent and it showed a arrow showing direction of travel then it showed arrows going east through the middle east through south iran to northwest india and indeed the ancient elamites were in south eastern iraq and southern iran and up to now the brahui dravidians are still mixing with the faris people from balochistan afghanistan and aryan types of pakistan also long time before this i dreamt of dark people entering india through the north west then bangledesh then tamil nadu also just recently i dreamt of a dark boy with straight in southern iraq and also i dreamt of a fair lady and in dream it is showing the faris people and and people of the gulf are from her and also it said the indian aryans are also from middle east but from some one else i also read the the saka or scythians are from magog son of japheth also i dreamt i am same as the persians of the gulf oman and also i dreamt i am same as sultan qaboos but not a sayyid

        • husayn

          the farsi people are same as people of gulf i left out gulf

        • husayn

          sorry i had to repost the above i left out word sorry for this everyone
          The Muslim historian Muhammad ibn Jarir al-Tabari (c. 915) recounts a tradition that the wife of Lud was named Shakbah, daughter of Japheth, and that she bore him “Faris, Jurjan, and the races of Faris”. He further asserts that Lud was the progenitor of not only the Persians, but also the Amalekites and Canaanites, and all the peoples of the East, Oman, Hejaz, Syria, Egypt, and Bahrein before i read this i dreamt the faris people of iraq and iran are same as the people of the gulf and i see myself in iraq because this is my heritage as well i have dreamt of Prophet Muhammad PBH more than8times in last dream of him in dream i am being told i am not from among his descendants and i ask him what about the indians he just had a nice smile this is what made me interested!before i had a negative view of what hamitic was and i dreamt of many hamitic types ones with straight hair and resembling dark indians but not australoid natives i also read the dravidians came from egypt i did not believe this same night i dreamt a description of the dravidians in dream it said hamitic in type with straight hair and were also egpytians also i dreamt of the fertile crescent which i had no idea about before in dream it is saying the draividians came from the fertile crescent in syria close to the sea and also i read the brahui dravidians claim they are from aleppo i looked up aleppo and it is in syria close to the sea 1 or 2nights after i dreamt the dravidians came out from egypt went into the fertile crescent and it showed a arrow showing direction of travel then it showed arrows going east through the middle east through south iran to northwest india and indeed the ancient elamites were in south eastern iraq and southern iran and up to now the brahui dravidians are still mixing with the faris people from balochistan afghanistan and aryan types of pakistan also long time before this i dreamt of dark people entering india through the north west then bangledesh then tamil nadu also just recently i dreamt of a dark boy with straight hair in southern iraq and also i dreamt of a fair lady and in dream it is showing the faris people and and people of the gulf are from her and also it said the indian aryans are also from middle east but from some one else i also read the the saka or scythians are from magog son of japheth also i dreamt i am same as the persians of the gulf oman and also i dreamt i am same as sultan qaboos but not a sayyid

      • husayn


        these are tamil muslims! what australian natives do we look like?

      • husayn


        tamil muslims!!!!!!

    • Ramesh

      There is a paper by Bamshed which proves that lower caste Indians are closer to Asians while the upper caste are closer to Eastern Europeans.

      • Peter Aryan

        This study, i have read it, it could possibly have not taken everything into account genetics is complicated, i have read studies from: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dravidian_people one
        shows L.L. Cavalli-Sforza of Stanford 1980 says indians are Caucasian, the other Dr. Eduardas Valaitis, in 2006, found that India is genetically closest to East and Southeast Asians with about 15% more genetic similarity than to Europeans; he also found that India could be considered very distinct from other regions.

  13. Pingback: Some Nepalese Racial Types « Robert Lindsay

  14. Ankur

    The red haired pashtun was definitely born with black hair, lost his tricho-melanin with age and has now dyed his hair with Henna( or Mehendee) – a herbal dye widely used in India.

    • That’s interesting that he has died his hair with henna. However, I have heard that there are some red haired Afghans.

      • Amanda Besso

        yes, especially the pathans they look like typical northern pakistanis and northern indians, nothing different, iv been to school with many pathans and majority do not look Caucasian, they actually look less, but the ones that live near mountains have lost their melanin being in the cold weather, yes and the theory goes the more north the more Caucasian they look, but thats not true with pakistan and india, its all about caste systems, before the partition of the two countries the north was majority upper caste hindus and sikhs and Buddhists, with muslim minorities living in inner cities, pakistanis ancestry is majority actually central india, after the partition, the upper caste hindus came to indias side and muslim minorities came to pakistan from central india, and south indians continue moving up north for work…some tribes in india are actually believed to be from Scythia and juttland ..etc, like the jatts and brahmins (upper caste), it was actually proved, but many locals have changed their names to appear upper caste to other, so theres many fakes as well, many upper caste in india mixed with people coming to india from europe..etc and those people only mixed with the upper caste folks found only in india.because hindus and sikhs are only found there.but over shadowed by a billion other indians..even south indians can look Caucasian it just depends on castes, considering the history of india, muslims were originally all lower caste that were converted to islam by arabs, recessive traits were not seen in them, in pakistan its only seen among pathans, people with a different gene pool, and they only make up 4% of pakistan, but majority are tanned, and the red hair, yes henna is very popular in asia, and yes some afghans do have red hair like 0.0001% of them, but its only seen among the poor living on the streets, its has to do with temperature and malnutrition, almost every homeless kid in asia has blondish or reddish hair, and pathans tend to be travelers always on the road and combine that with the weather they live in they can look caucasian, but are not really

        • Amanda Besso

          theres also africans tribes near the southern bay of india,like Australoid and Andaman islanders but theres only like a couple thousand of them, india truly is diverse, ethnically, it is where all the ancient clans have came to get rich of its rich land

        • Amanda Besso

          and that hair malnutrition kids have in asia doesn’t not get passed genetically

        • Paul

          Call this the result of minral deficiency if you can.

        • Eileen

          Some of the red hair people are very minority in South India. Perhaps Volga trade route.

  15. Ankur

    About the dark girl from north India….if you’d settle nordic farmers in India for 5000 years they wouldn’t look nordic at all…the UV in sunrays stimulates melanin as an adaptive response…which gradually becomes a stable heritable phenotype

  16. Ok, this question has nothing to do with peopling of India.

    Are rounder faces typically Asian or caucasian? I mean, likes less projecting chins. I know that caucasians have projecting chins. I am Caucasian(Swedish) and I have a less projecting chin.

    Like these women:

    • I’m actually not sure to tell the truth. I don’t know much about round faces and non projecting chins.

    • India

      Unless someone is fat, you have to say a round face is definitely an Asian trait. Lot of Indian women have roundish faces (not as round as Asians) because the Indian female is generally closer genetically to the Asians than Europeans (with exception of the higher caste who share more markers with Europeans than they do with Asians) whereas the men are closer to the Europeans, irrespective of caste.

      • Peter Aryan

        No, Indians have distinctly Caucasian features only the Nagas and tribals have asian features, indians have some of the longest noses and longest faces with regular eyes/not slanted(no offence) indians mostly have fine features, some have softer features in the south, but are certainly not Asian, genetically they are getting closer to Asian because of the Mongol invasion.

  17. Ranvir Malik

    Hi Robert,

    I read your full page and its quite interesting and upto very much extent TRUE. We belong from a small village in Haryana (a north Indian state). I have seen people here in our state (haryana) looking almost any european. I would suggest you to visit few villages in this state and it would help we people of Haryana to understand our ancestry. The ancient Vedic religion was our religion. You would be amazed to know, our great grand father has made all the data of our ancestry, we are the people who started from Denmark and moved then to Ukraine then moved forward to Afghanistan and finally settling in norther India some 6-7000 years ago. All this in the search of food / arable land / fresh water supply which were available in norther India. Our records show that a group of 200-500 families started from Denmark to India along with millions of other people who came before and after some 5-7000 years ago. That is the reason why European languages like French, German, English, Dutch, Spanish, Italian, Greek, Lithuanian, Russian match with Sanskrit, Hindi and other Indian languages so much. Unfortunately In India, it has been turned into the caste system mucht like black/white discrimination which happened in US till 19th century. But in the end, it appears we are all one.

  18. that 2oth picture of that Vedda man from India looks phenotypically caucasian. He doesn’t look australoid at all..

    His nose is thin and narrow and his chin is prominent.

    The only think is that he has dark skin.

  19. Oh and Who is commenter Joe Stickler?

  20. I have seen red headed Bengalis and South Indians before.

    We went to India and Bangladesh 2 yrs ago and I didn’t see these aborigine looking Indians at all.

    Where can I find these aborigine looking people?

  21. Mohan

    Hi Robert
    Would it be right to say that the original native people of South India, especially the present-day Tamilnadu are of the INDO MELANID/Vedda group. They might have migrated from the east Ocean/Polynesia or some of them might have migrated to Eastern Ocean/Polynesia. Is there any indication as to when some of these natives of Tamilnadu became Brahmins ? Is it correct to say that they followed the Veda-based Hindu religion after being influenced so by some group from North India (specifically north of the Vindhyas).
    Thanks

    • I think that the native people of all India were Indo-Melanid/Vedda types. I’m not sure how far they go back or where they come from. No one is really. They may well be an internal development in the region. I do not believe that Vedda types came from the East. In fact, there is some evidence that Veddas went to Australia 13,000 YBP and became the Aborigines. The Polynesian types are completely different and they are not Veddas at all.

      It also looks like Veddas appeared in the Philippines on their way to Australia. There is a Vedda type in Malaysia called Senoi. They may have come from Yunnan. It’s all quite confusing.

      Yes, the Southerners adopted the Vedas based Hindu religion from the Aryans. This is clear. Yet I feel that Hinduism predates the Aryans.

      • husayn


        tamil actors ! actually you guys should know the dravidians of the south were great maritime people this is how they went even more east

  22. OMG! Funniest Indian video ever:

    I was laughing my azz off at the translations of the video.

  23. Perez Christina

    oh wow.

    I think its a concidence that I got to see your blog.

    I just published a web blog about the different races in India like an hour ago.

    • husayn

      it is amazing people are not from india yet they are labeling the poor people and half of what u say is not right check the postings of the tamil dravidians and aborigines u guys will see a difference in features

  24. aren’t there like a lot of people in India? i have a quite number of Indian friends and they all look different as in skin color and features.

    I think north indians are caucasians and south indians are caucasian/australoid mixed. the darker south indians might have more australoid genes and the lighter south indians might ave more caucasian genes.

    or I could be wrong

  25. vivek

    hi, i belong to the nair community of kerala and a DNA analysis of around 14 members of the community (y- dna tests) have revealed a 36% m17 and 20% M172, with the rest being split among other mutations….. M17 IS supposed to be of eastern european lineage and m172 is of mediterranean lineage, what are the conclusions one can reach after these results( it is an ongoing project)?…. also is there any particular book which lists the various haplogroups and genetic make up of races across the world?

    • Hi, I think you are mixed dravidian and Indo aryan.

      Dravidians are mediterranean people that live in South India. So, that explains why you have m172 in you. You are probably mixed with Indo european(Aryan) which explains why you have M17 in you.

    • vivek

      thanks, i was wondering if there is any good book on genes and haplotypes of world populations/ or any good website

    • Wikipedia is pretty good on that stuff.

      This site is a good example of that sort of thing, but it has a European emphasis. All that stuff about genes and haplogroups is extraordinarily complex, I may as well warn you. And it’s also very controversial. Even after you mess around with it for a while, it’s kind of hard to figure out what’s really going on.

  26. Esi

    I am having a hard time understanding (or maybe believing) that Whites are closer genetically than the darker Indians shown here. Now, are you referring to African American blacks or (West ) African Blacks. It is well known that Black Americas through enslavement would undoubtedly be ‘closer’ to Whites.

    • These Indians here are Caucasoids genetically. Some of their skulls are not Caucasoid, but they aren’t African either. Some of their skulls are Australoid. These people are very distant from Africans, and yes, genetically, they are fairly close to European Whites. They are vastly closer to European Whites than to Africans, and they have no African blood in them at all, Your average German has way more African blood than those folks as Germans are 1.7% Black.

      Thing about genetics is looks deceive. People who look similar can be very far apart and others who are very close can look very different.

    • Patrick

      Well the likely reason for why people from India are considered caucasian is because white skinned Europeans can trace their origins to the brown skinned people of India. After European migrations a mutation occurred which caused the skin to become paler.

    • Also, the Indians skulls are mostly Caucasoid (though some are Australoid) and Indian genes are generally Caucasoid (though some border on Asian).

  27. ATUN RE

    Melanin, excuse my ignorance means???? The WORD INDI MEANS WHAT? AGAIN EXCUSE MY IGNORANCE. I showed the picture of the the Malid Panyer women to one hundred and fifty Caucasians, and they agreed that she is a negro, that can be from the US, Africa The islands. and Australia. They all agreed they are all from the same Genetic family. Thier features are simaliar…

    • She’s not a Negro or member of the Negroid race. Genetically, she’s a Caucasoid. By skull, she’s an Australoid.

    • Golden Gopher

      Yes, many Indians are dark skinned like Africans but that doesn’t mean we have recent African ancestry. We’re about as related to Africans as are other Asians or Europeans. And if you are implying that “indi” means black, it does not. It is derived from the river Sindhu and the Greek version of Sindh.

      Skin color is not necessarily indicative of ancestry.

  28. Indi

    This blog is great! Almost everyone is caucasoid except for aboriginals I see. Just don’t let the good people over at Stormfront know that you’re spewing stuff like this though….trying to keep things pure.

  29. Malik

    As an Indian, to me India seems to be a mix of 3 racial groupings: Caucasian, Mongol (East Asian) and Austro-Asiatic. Vast parts of North East India and East India (states like West Bengal, Orissa) have East Asian features, either heavily (like in the North East) or to some degree (in the East) because lot of Bengalis, Oryas, for example, have Mongol admixure. The Bengal was actually ruled by Tibet for a long time. But you also get these features in other parts of North India too, but to a lesser extent.

    For some reason, lot of Indian women across India (much more so than men who look more Caucasoid) have a hint of East Asian feautures, often just a hint of it.

    Here is a Bengali actress; her features are very common in Bengal. In fact, a lot of Bengalis look much more East Asian in appearance than her.

    Here is another picture of two Indians. The one on the right is a famous actress of independent films in India. The woman on the left (a fan of hers, I assume) clearly has Mongol admixture, but so does the actress, to a lesser extent. And yet, she (the actress) would actually be described as Caucasian (if she was pictured on her own). The reason I showed the picture of the two together is to show her slight resemblance in terms of features to the other woman.

    As for South India, the people there seem to be Caucasoid mixed with Austro-Asiatic. I am thinking the Austro-Asiatic were the tribal people that were already there and the Dravidian people came to South India and mixed with them.

    All in all, India seems to be very mixed, and being Indian myself, I have seen vast array of features and skin colouration in the country, depending on part of the country you are in.

    Though the Caucasoid features is the most dominant across India, the only Indians with a very strong Caucasoid appearance in today’s India are only really found in the extreme North in Kashmir and to smaller extent in the Punjab, near the Pakistan border. There has been a lot of assimilation between different peoples of India over thousands of years.

    I would like your views on this, Robert. Thanks

    • You are correct, many Indians are mixed to some extent with Mongoloids. I believe that Punjabis are 14% Mongoloid. Probably most of this is some sort of Tibetan Mongoloid type.

      I agree with your analysis of India almost entirely.

      However, around here, we have many Punjabis. A certain number of them are almost or totally indistinguishable from White Americans. Others look something like many of the Hispanics around here. In general, the Punjabis around here often have a profoundly, if not entirely, Caucasoid appearance.

      The evolution of the Dravidians is very complex and poorly understood. Your analysis lines up well with mine and is as good as any.

      • Peter Aryan

        Is not every race a little mixed but what matter is the main racial amke up, some north europeans are probably mixed with mongolid Saami

    • Celina

      yeah, I think a typical Southern Indian is mixed Indid/Australoid.

      • Peter Aryan

        Well I think genetically South Indians are Caucasian and most look it, but like Swedes some look less Caucasian and have nonCaucasian skulls
        Check out this pretty asian looking Swedish woman:

        Check out this Caucasian looking Hyderabadis:

        they look arabs even southern europeans
        Check out these south Indians they look

        Caucasian, not australoid,

        Mostly the tribals are australoid and some Tamils, its restricted to about 8% or so of India’s population, and they are still genetically caucasian, and hey in Mexico some people are covered in hair like wolves woth hair on their face, they have an ancient mamlian gene expressed that predates primates but are still human they have hypertrichosis, this is much like how these australoids look different but are still Caucasian.
        Here is the “Wolfman” from Mexico:
        http://www.spiegel.de/international/spiegel/0,1518,335660,00.html

        • You think those South Indians are Caucasoids? Ok, I will go along with that, then, sure. Makes sense to me. I don’t want to call them Whites though. For some reason it seems nuts to call them Whites.

    • husayn

      brother the lady looks nothing like asian what?many punjabi sikhs are the ones who have the asian eyes the eyes slant up this lady is wearing makeup shes looks indo aryan

    • yeahright

      Northeast India is not even connected to India except a small passage way, the Himalaya Mountains are the highest mountains on the planet, they’re no Mongoloid genes in India except the areas of Tibet which are behind the mountains. Genetic studies shows that Indians are Caucasians and Australoids, ANI mixed with ASI.

  30. Malik

    Thanks for your response. I can definitely see how some Punjabis can pass for white Hispanics and even whites. Nikki Haley, the South Carolina House of Representative (on the far left in the pic below), was born to Punjabi parents. Looks very Italian.

    There are actually some in far North India that can even pass for Nordic people. They have blond hair and blue/green eyes and very pale skin. But you tend to find more in Pakistan and a lot more in Afghanistan than in India.

    Anyway, great site and lucky to have come across it. I will sure to bookmark the site for future as its a very interesting read.

    • Yes, she does look like an Italian. I see these Punjabis around here, and to me, they are part of my racial family. The Whites, the Caucasians. A lot of them at least. However, some have features that are a lot more Indian-Caucasoid, and they don’t look so much like my family. They look more like distant cousins maybe. To me, these Punjabis are part of my great White race. But then, I’m a Pan-Aryanist.😉

      • Peter Aryan

        I like the idea on PanAryanism this should be promoted and there should be a cultural celebration like a Holiday or Powow of sorts.

        • Yes! I love that idea. Pan-Aryanism should very much be promoted. It would be so cool to have a holiday or a pow-wow. We could have as possible of the Pan-Aryan tribes there, they could set up booths, sell stuff, food, books, t-shirts. The Pan-Aryan tribes from Europe, North Africa, the Middle East, South Asia and even the Subcontinent could all have booths, food concessions, dance, etc.

          Damn! I would love to get together with all my Pan-Aryan brothers and sisters!

          We would let anyone in, but to man a booth, you would have to look pretty much Pan-Aryan.

          Like at a Black festival, you can’t have White people manning booths you know.

    • Honestly, you know what? There have been a few times, not too many, around here where I saw people (both males) and I thought, “Oh there’s a White guy (like me).” I’m very conscious about race here because this area is so diverse and as a White, I am a minority. In both cases, I was stunned to learn that these men were Punjabis.

      One I found out through his accent, and then I asked him, otherwise he just looks like any White dude. The other was an older guy in a doctor’s office. I found out when he walked over to his wife and started speaking Punjabi to her.

      At the university where I got my Master’s, there were a lot of Punjabi chicks, and quite a few of them were seriously, seriously, HOT! I mean they have some hot chicks, man. But you could not touch them because they only dated Punjabi guys, and they generally only socialized with Punjabis too. But the new generation coming up (oldest around 20-25 now) is extremely assimilated and I think they may start marrying out.

      I’d love to date one of these Punjabi chicks around here but they are for all intents and purposes untouchable. Apparently they only date their own.

      These Punjabis are also very smart people. Very smart, very educated. Even if they have no college degree, they are often very well self-educated. Many are going into the professions (especially medicine) and they are making good money. They are very well behaved and cause almost zero problems around here, unlike Hispanics. They also have very deep family values which tends to keep them out of trouble. They’re interesting people, model immigrants, and I like them a lot.

    • Helena

      that punjabi woman in that pic looks pure Indid like this punjabi lady below.

    • Yes Helena, that woman in that picture looks just like a White woman! So some Indians from the north really are White. Amazing, there are White Indians.

    • Celina

      That Punjabi woman looks pure Indic like this Punjabi woman..

      and like this Southern Indian woman:

      http://z.hubpages.com/u/341200_f520.jpg.

      Indic is a Europid type which is very common among North and Central Indians and among South Indian upper caste people.

    • Celina, those “Indics” just look like White Europeans. Especially the first one. So then, it’s correct to say that there are White Indians, right?

    • Celina

      white is one with pale skin..

      Indic people have tannish/olive skin tones. SO, I don’t think they can be called ‘white’..they are just caucasians like Arabs and Armenians. I also don’t think majority of the Europeans would consider Indics, Arabs and Armenians as ‘white’.

      But Nordindids(people from Kashmir and Northern Punjab) do look white and they are pale.

      Like this Nordindid woman:

    • White just means you look like you came from Europe. A lot of Europeans have olive skin. Those women could easily pass for Europeans.

      Around here, most people say that Armenians are White.

      Arabs is a hard case, but for sure there are White Arabs. Look at Bashar Assad, President of Syria, and his father, Havez. He is clearly a White man. And many Lebanese are White. There are some White Arabs in Palestine, Jordan and Iraq too.

      • husayn

        arabs are not white yes in color some are olive and also a dusky color color does not denote you are person of european ancestry?. some because they mixed with european they the arabs are from semitic people from shem not (japheth as the europeans unless they mix with caucasian people!)

  31. Uncle Milton

    To Rob:

    I’d love to date one of these Punjabi chicks around here but they are for all intents and purposes untouchable. Apparently they only date their own.

    No.. not necessarily.. I went on two dates with a woman who emigrated to the US when she was 17 but some of her family members (cousins..) had grown up in the US. She had already been married to a Punjabi man when she was in her 20s, this may have led her to look for new horizons. She is well educated and has a Master’s degree in Chemistry from UC Berkeley. Basically she was the kind of woman who have been good for me but I am the kind of man who be bad for her so I didn’t follow up on the second date although we are still somewhat in touch because of one of her cousins.

    • I don’t know how you guys do it.

      I’ve heard about another White guy who dated Indian chicks.

      I’ve also heard that the Indian men are totally furious at any White guy who dates their women. Really pisses them off!

  32. Uncle Milton

    I don’t know how you guys do it.
    I’ve heard about another White guy who dated Indian chicks.

    Well it’s much easier to find East Asians to date than South Asians…. and I say that as an employee at a company where I am surrounded by South Asian women. I think it’s less of a race thing than an extension of the tradition of arranged marriage wherein the parents and the society in general have a strong hand in approval of who an Indian women should date or marry.

    That said the two of the three hottest Indian women at my work have dated White guys and one of them ended up marrying a White guy. (And get this, she was raised Muslim…)

  33. Malik

    Interesting point you raise about dating Indian women. I am an Indian in the UK and I know a bit about this.

    Well its true that Indian girls (even those born in the West or raised there from very young) are much less likely to date white men compared to East Asian women in the US, who almost seem to regard white men as trophy, more and more young Indian women do actually date white men in countries like the US, UK, Australia, Germany (one of my female Indian friends in Germany is married to a white German man and two of her friends, both Indian, are dating white men), but the Indian men they come across often say nasty things to them in Hindi which obviously their husbands or boyfriends do not understand). But most of these Indian guys are often quite young who have come on student visas or are recent immigrants and wouldn’t think twice before dating white or other non-Indian women. Bit hypocritical.

    Even young Indian Muslim women (taken to be much more conservative than their Hindu or Sikh counterparts) sometimes date white guys without their families knowing. I have heard of stories where Muslim girls go away to college and change completely from the religious observant girl to an all dancing, all partying girl (and even drinking) now that their relatives won’t know what they are up to in a different town. Some also date work colleagues. In fact, there is an increasing paranoia among Indian men that more and more West-raised Indian women regard white men in the same way as East Asian women do.

    Having said that, when it comes for time to marry, lot of them do end up going with Indian men. This is perhaps because dating and living with someone for life is different to just dating them, given the cultural differences. Most Indians have a very strong sense of ‘Indianness’ even those born in the UK, US, etc and that bind is too strong to consider white men for marriage and the possibility of having kids with them.

    • Peter Aryan

      Cannot thankyou enough for replying last time!
      Here is another long winded qus]estion sorry I am really curious:
      Why are they no tribal black Africans with euopean genes in europe today or are they mongolids like the Saami, why are they Caucasian Ainu’s in Japan? Is there a racial history of migrations and evolution, I heard that at one time a Mongoloid/Australoid (amerindian looking) Empire ruled the Earth and some Mexicans amerindians trace their acestors to India
      see link:
      http://www.viewzone.com/baboquivari.html

      Do you agree with these studies from Wikipedia please comment: Genetics
      Main article: Genetics and archaeogenetics of South Asia
      The genetic views on race differ in their classification of Dravidians. According to population geneticist L.L. Cavalli-Sforza of Stanford, based on work done in the 1980s, Indians are genetically Caucasian, but Lewontin rejects the label Caucasian. Cavalli-Sforza found that Indians are about three times closer to West Europeans than to East Asians.[9] Dr. Eduardas Valaitis, in 2006, found that India is genetically closest to East and Southeast Asians with about 15% more genetic similarity than to Europeans; he also found that India could be considered very distinct from other regions.[10] Genetic anthropologist Stanley Marion Garn considered in the 1960s that the entirety of the Indian Subcontinent to be a “race” genetically distinct from other populations.[9][11] Others, such as Lynn B. Jorde and Stephen P. Wooding, claim South Indians are genetic intermediaries between Europeans and East Asians.[12][13][14]

      A number of earlier anthropologists held the view that the Dravidian peoples together were a distinct race[citation needed]. Comprehensive genetic studies have proven that this is not the case. The genetic studies also indicated that the origin of both Dravidian and Indo-Aryan speakers is the Indian subcontinent.[15][16][17] (The situation is similar to Western Europe, where the Basques are racially similar to the surrounding Romance language speakers.) Recent studies of the distribution of alleles on the Y chromosome,[15] microsatellite DNA,[16] and mitochondrial DNA [17] in India have cast overwhelmingly strong doubt for a biologically identifiable “Dravidian race” distinct from non-Dravidians in the Indian subcontinent. The only distinct ethnic groups present in South Asia, according to genetic analysis, are the Balochi, Brahui, Burusho, Hazara, Kalash, Pathan and Sindhi peoples, the vast majority of whom are found in today’s Pakistan.[18]

      In a 2009 study of 132 individuals, 560,000 SNPs in 25 different Indian groups were analyzed, providing strong evidence in support of the notion that modern Indians are a hybrid population descending from two pre-historic, genetically divergent populations[citation needed], one of which, referred to as the ‘Ancestral North Indians’, aged 40.000 years and the other, called the ‘Ancestral South Indians’, aged 60.000 years. The intermingling of ANI’s and ASI’s happened in the same period as the ANI’s first appeared, 40.000 years ago.[19] The study also holds, that the caste system grew out of tribal-like organizations of the Indian society. In another study of 2009 conducted among 10 Asian countries, Dravidians were connected with the other Indian populations and peoples of Malaysia, Singapore and China.[20]A study headed by geneticist S.Sharma et al.(2009), collated information for 2809 Indians (681 Brahmins, and 2128 Tribals and Scheduled Castes). The results showed “no consistent pattern of the exclusive presence and distribution of Y-haplogroups to distinguish the higher-most caste, Brahmins, from the lower-most ones, schedule castes and tribals”. In its conclusions, the study proposed “the autochthonous origin and tribal links of Indian Brahmins” as well as the origin of R1a1* in the Indian subcontinent[11]

      In a study led by Mukherjee et al.(2001), the R1a lineage was found to form around (35)–(45)% among all the castes in North Indian population.

      Contradicting these findings, however, a genetic study in Kerala state of India found that the upper caste Hindus were closer relatives to Eastern-Europeans than to Hindus from lower castes.[12]

      A study conducted by the Centre for Cellular and Molecular Biology in 2009 (in collaboration with Harvard Medical School, Harvard School of Public Health and the Broad Institute of Harvard and MIT) analyzed half a million genetic markers across the genomes of 132 individuals from 25 ethnic groups from 13 states in India across multiple caste groups.[13] The study asserts, based on the impossibility of identifying any genetic indicators across caste lines, that castes in South Asia grew out of traditional tribal organizations during the formation of Indian society and that the Indian population derives largely from two groups, with the “ancient north indian” group predating the advent of the Indo-Aryan languages. According to Kumarasamy Thangarajan, “The initial settlement took place 65,000 years ago in the Andamans and in ancient south India around the same time, which led to population growth in this part…At a later stage, 40,000 years ago, the ancient north Indians emerged which in turn led to rise in numbers here. But at some point of time, the ancient north and the ancient south mixed, giving birth to a different set of population.”.[14] However, this study fails to explain the presence of R1a1 in significant frequencies (About 30% average over all of India) in the Indian population, given that R1a1 originated no more than 17,000 years ago.

      I think Indians have to be labled under white or they must change it to Caucasian on cenuses because if Indians share genes with Europeans then they are aat risk for the same medical issues, its a health concern at most, we need to spread the word to `inspire cultural pride, awareness, and medical/genetic safety! they might suffer fromthe same genetic diseases and should be warned, etc. Raj Bhopal and Liam Donaldson opine that white people are a heterogeneous group, and the term white should therefore be abandoned as a classification for the purposes of epidemiology and health research, and identifications based on geographic origin and migration history be used instead. I agree with these guys how about you?

    • yeahright

      Bs, Indian men marry out more than Indian women according to stats, and Indian men only want virgin Indian women

    • Hahahahaha, you’re out of your wackarrse mind, here in the UK the Pakistani Pahari sell white females for fun that Its on the news.

  34. Keren

    what is an Indic/Nordinid race? How do they look like?

    • Those are those really White-looking Indians from up in the north like Punjabis and Kashmiris.

      • Peter Aryan

        Cannot thankyou enough for replying last time!
        Here is another long winded qus]estion sorry I am really curious: Are Madagascaran natives Australoid genetically, becuase skeletally they are australoid
        Why are they no tribal black Africans with euopean genes in europe today or are they mongolids like the Saami, why are they Caucasian Ainu’s in Japan? Is there a racial history of migrations and evolution, I heard that at one time a Mongoloid/Australoid (amerindian looking) Empire ruled the Earth and some Mexicans amerindians trace their acestors to India
        see link:
        http://www.viewzone.com/baboquivari.html

        Do you agree with these studies from Wikipedia please comment: Genetics
        Main article: Genetics and archaeogenetics of South Asia
        The genetic views on race differ in their classification of Dravidians. According to population geneticist L.L. Cavalli-Sforza of Stanford, based on work done in the 1980s, Indians are genetically Caucasian, but Lewontin rejects the label Caucasian. Cavalli-Sforza found that Indians are about three times closer to West Europeans than to East Asians.[9] Dr. Eduardas Valaitis, in 2006, found that India is genetically closest to East and Southeast Asians with about 15% more genetic similarity than to Europeans; he also found that India could be considered very distinct from other regions.[10] Genetic anthropologist Stanley Marion Garn considered in the 1960s that the entirety of the Indian Subcontinent to be a “race” genetically distinct from other populations.[9][11] Others, such as Lynn B. Jorde and Stephen P. Wooding, claim South Indians are genetic intermediaries between Europeans and East Asians.[12][13][14]

        A number of earlier anthropologists held the view that the Dravidian peoples together were a distinct race[citation needed]. Comprehensive genetic studies have proven that this is not the case. The genetic studies also indicated that the origin of both Dravidian and Indo-Aryan speakers is the Indian subcontinent.[15][16][17] (The situation is similar to Western Europe, where the Basques are racially similar to the surrounding Romance language speakers.) Recent studies of the distribution of alleles on the Y chromosome,[15] microsatellite DNA,[16] and mitochondrial DNA [17] in India have cast overwhelmingly strong doubt for a biologically identifiable “Dravidian race” distinct from non-Dravidians in the Indian subcontinent. The only distinct ethnic groups present in South Asia, according to genetic analysis, are the Balochi, Brahui, Burusho, Hazara, Kalash, Pathan and Sindhi peoples, the vast majority of whom are found in today’s Pakistan.[18]

        In a 2009 study of 132 individuals, 560,000 SNPs in 25 different Indian groups were analyzed, providing strong evidence in support of the notion that modern Indians are a hybrid population descending from two pre-historic, genetically divergent populations[citation needed], one of which, referred to as the ‘Ancestral North Indians’, aged 40.000 years and the other, called the ‘Ancestral South Indians’, aged 60.000 years. The intermingling of ANI’s and ASI’s happened in the same period as the ANI’s first appeared, 40.000 years ago.[19] The study also holds, that the caste system grew out of tribal-like organizations of the Indian society. In another study of 2009 conducted among 10 Asian countries, Dravidians were connected with the other Indian populations and peoples of Malaysia, Singapore and China.[20]A study headed by geneticist S.Sharma et al.(2009), collated information for 2809 Indians (681 Brahmins, and 2128 Tribals and Scheduled Castes). The results showed “no consistent pattern of the exclusive presence and distribution of Y-haplogroups to distinguish the higher-most caste, Brahmins, from the lower-most ones, schedule castes and tribals”. In its conclusions, the study proposed “the autochthonous origin and tribal links of Indian Brahmins” as well as the origin of R1a1* in the Indian subcontinent[11]

        In a study led by Mukherjee et al.(2001), the R1a lineage was found to form around (35)–(45)% among all the castes in North Indian population.

        Contradicting these findings, however, a genetic study in Kerala state of India found that the upper caste Hindus were closer relatives to Eastern-Europeans than to Hindus from lower castes.[12]

        A study conducted by the Centre for Cellular and Molecular Biology in 2009 (in collaboration with Harvard Medical School, Harvard School of Public Health and the Broad Institute of Harvard and MIT) analyzed half a million genetic markers across the genomes of 132 individuals from 25 ethnic groups from 13 states in India across multiple caste groups.[13] The study asserts, based on the impossibility of identifying any genetic indicators across caste lines, that castes in South Asia grew out of traditional tribal organizations during the formation of Indian society and that the Indian population derives largely from two groups, with the “ancient north indian” group predating the advent of the Indo-Aryan languages. According to Kumarasamy Thangarajan, “The initial settlement took place 65,000 years ago in the Andamans and in ancient south India around the same time, which led to population growth in this part…At a later stage, 40,000 years ago, the ancient north Indians emerged which in turn led to rise in numbers here. But at some point of time, the ancient north and the ancient south mixed, giving birth to a different set of population.”.[14] However, this study fails to explain the presence of R1a1 in significant frequencies (About 30% average over all of India) in the Indian population, given that R1a1 originated no more than 17,000 years ago.

        I think Indians have to be labled under white or they must change it to Caucasian on cenuses because if Indians share genes with Europeans then they are aat risk for the same medical issues, its a health concern at most, we need to spread the word to `inspire cultural pride, awareness, and medical/genetic safety! they might suffer fromthe same genetic diseases and should be warned, etc. Raj Bhopal and Liam Donaldson opine that white people are a heterogeneous group, and the term white should therefore be abandoned as a classification for the purposes of epidemiology and health research, and identifications based on geographic origin and migration history be used instead. I agree with these guys how about you?

        • anon

          Even in terms of facial features, not skin color, Arabs, Indians, etc., are very different from Europeans.

        • Arabs, not so much. They just pretty much look like some kind of desert-adapated Meds, which is all they are, really. Some have a bit of Black in them. Big deal. At most they have as much Black as your average US Black. So do we call US Blacks non-Blacks or say they are White due to 15% White? If US Blacks are Black (they are) then Arabs are basically White.

          Indians are a lot different. Genetically and feature-wise, they are some of the most divergent of the Caucasians. Some say they are another race altogether between Caucasians and Asians.

        • India

          Indians are of the Caucasoid branch and some look very Caucasoid in their features but some Indians definitely look kind of an intermediary between Whites and Asian in their features.

          But I agree that with Indians, even the most white looking Indians, there is something that tells you he is an Indian. It would be very difficult to mistake them for whites but some can be mistaken for Middle Eastern, Hispanics, Mexicans, Latinos, Southeast Asians by people who don’t have a great knowledge of ethnic types. But as an Indian I can almost always tell when someone is from the Subcontinent no matter how ambiguous his looks are.

      • Abrar

        Please We Kashmiris consider it an insult to be called Indian.
        Kashmiris are diverse,

        Many look Tibetan, Tajik ( Ladakh )
        Many Persian
        Many Mongoloids

        Many assert they are Kashmiri but migrants from the South Asian basin East of the Indus way East.

  35. Keren

    whata about Gracile Indids? Are they a mix of Nordindid and something else?
    Where are they mostly found?

    And also, cromagnons?

    • I’m not sure what a gracile Indid looks like.

      Cro-Magnons are the ancient people who inhabited Europe 30-40,000 years ago.

    • vivek

      the indid, weddid , melanid classification is attributed to fuhrer von eickstedt who led an anthropological expedition to india many years ago . here is a synopsis of what he deduced-

      indid race- subraces-
      a)gracile indids.
      b)north indids( indo-afghanus of deniker).
      c)brachids- brachycephals like marathas,bengal orissa inhabitants, and a tall brachid type in the doab( south western uttar pradesh).

      among gracil indids subtypes are-
      keralid-found in malabar. kerala.
      himalayid-garhwal in uttaranchal , UP.
      SINHALID- ceylon.
      many bengalis.
      gracil indids as the name suggests are usualy short statured, regular featured people, with brown complexion… postulated to be similar to an old mediterranean type ( like cretans).

      north indids- egs. punjabis, todas of nilgiris, ,jats,rajputs, sikhs… according to eickstedt are lighter in skin than gracil indids, coarser boned , tall stature and heavy hair growth…thought to be proto nordic according to later anthropologists.

      barchids

  36. vivek

    continuing from where i left-

    brachids- correspond to proto- alpine/ armenoid race.
    weddids- nowadays thought to be same as proto- australoids.seen in most of the jungle tribes of south india, and erstwhile untouchable castes of deccan.
    melanids- according to eickstedt( he appears confused on this- in skin pigmentation they approach negroids, but otherwise morphologically- caucasoid) egs, tamils, gonds,

    the von eickstedt work is no doubt a monumental piece but he gives too many fancy names- keralid, garwhalid, sinhalid etc… and he possibly gives skin color far too much importance…. hope this helps.

  37. Kumar

    lol @ this ammature approach towards the Racial demographics of South Asia. I might as well post the basic scheme as per Guha/Eickstedt here to clear things up.

    ~ A) Grazilindid (related to the GrazilMediterranid of Europe)
    In the racial composition of the peoples of India we can discern; (A), a short statured long headed element with high cranial vault but faintly marked supra-orbital ridges and broad, short but ortho-gnathous face, with medium lips. The nose is prominent and long but the alae moderately spread out, giving a mesorrhine index. The colour of the skin varies from light brown in the Telugu Brahmin to a dark tawny brown among the Kalla, but the eye colour is dark brown and colour of the hair is usually black. The latter is in general straight but is inclined to waviness and the amount is moderate both on the face and body. It is found in its purest form among the Telugu Brahmins, but the Kallas of Southern Tamil country and the Illuvas of Cochin also furnish good examples. This type forms the predominant element in the greater part of the lower stratum of the population of Northern India, including to some extent the Punjab, where among the Chubra and Chamar is a small-headed, broad-nosed element which appears to be closely related to the Mediterranean stock of Europe.

    ~ B) Indobrachid (related to the Alpines/Baltics, Dinarics and Cromagnids)

    On this basic substratum there appears to have superimposed:—
    In the western littoral and Bengal (B) a brachycephalic element of medium stature with flattened occiput but having also high head and not infrequently receding forehead. Like the former the face is short and orthognathous but somewhat broader. The nose is long and quite often arched and convex. The skin colour varies from a pale white to light brown among the Nagas Brahmin, to tawny brown among the Kannada non-Brahmins. The colour of the eye is usually dark brown but a small per cent shows light eyes. The hair colour is black with a small proportion showing a dark brown tint. The hair is generally straight and the pilous system well developed. The Nagar Brahmin of Guzrat, the Kayastha of Bengal and the Kannada non-Brahmin are representatives of this type.

    ~ C) Nordindid (related to the Nordics/Robust Mediterraneans/ also slender Mediterranids ~ EastMediterranid)
    (C) Another long-headed strain with comparatively lower but longer head and tall stature and possessing a long face and prominent narrow long nose. It its purest form it is found in the North-west Himalayan tribes like the Kaffirs and the Pathan where the skin colour is predominantly of a rosy white tint and an appreciable number have grey-blue eyes and chestnut hair. In the plains of Northern India, among the Sikhs of the Punjab and the Brahmin of the U.P. the skin colour changes to a light transparent brown. Here also there is a small proportion of people having light eyes and brownish hair. Among this type also the hair is usually straight and the pilous system well developed.

    ~ D) Weddid (some are Australoid, while others look proto-Caucasoid/proto-Europid/paleo-Europid/europimorphic)
    In addition to these three types, the aboriginal population of India discloses – (D) a short and moderately high-headed strain with very often strongly marked brow ridges, broad short face, the mouth slightly inclined forwards and small flat nose with the alae extended. The hair varies from wavy to curliness and the skin is of a shade of dark chocolate brown approaching black. This type is predominant among the aboriginal tribes of Central and Southern India, but seems also to have entered in a considerable degree in the lower stratum of the Indian population. This type is closely allied to the Veddas of Ceylon, the Toalas of Celebes, and the Sakais of the Malay Peninsula. A more primitive form of this type is seen among the aborigines of Australia, among whom some of its traits are found in an intensified form. The Bhils of the Vindhya and the Chenchus of the Farhabad Hills may be regarded as representatives of this type.

    ~ E) Andamanid/Negritid:

    It seems probable that at a very early time this type displaced and partially intermixed with:— (E) a dark pigmy strain having spirally curved hair, remnants of which are still found among the Kadars and the Pulayans of the Perambucullan Hills but which is mostly submerged in India at the present time. Hutton has drawn attention to the presence of the negrito type among the Angairti Nagas and examination of the large series of skulls brought back by the Triangular expedition has made it quite clear that it extends beyond the Assam frontiers into the trans-Namphuk area of Burma. The Andamanese are racially homogeneous and of distinct type, characterised by a dwarfish stature, black complexion and woolly hair who have survived as a result of isolation.

    ~ Primitive Palämongolide/East Weddid/OstWeddid

    Racial Element F.
    The mongoloid racial strain does not appear to have entered in any considerable extent in the population of the mainlands of India. The true Mongol element as seen among the Uzbegs, still remains outside the Indian frontiers but all along the sub-Himalayan region of N.E. Kashmir to Bhutan:—
    F: a brachycephalic mongoloid type, having, not improbably some affinities with the former, seems to have penetrated and constitutes to-day the main component of the population of these parts. The type that forms the dominant element in Burma is also brachycephalic but somewhat shorter in stature and having a short flat nose and a tendency to alveolar prognathism. It appears to exhibit certain affinities with the Siamese, the Malay and the Cochin Chinese.

    ~ Progressive Palämongolide:

    Racial Element G.
    In Assam and Northern Burma there seems to have entered:—
    G: a second Mongoloid strain characterised by medium stature, longish head and medium nose, but exhibiting like (F) the typical Mongoloid characteristics of the face and eye. This element constitutes the major strain in the population of the hills and not inconsiderably of that of the Brahmaputra Valley. The Angami Nagas may be considered to be the best representatives of this type but the Mikir-Bodo group also furnishes a good example.

    Notes:

    INTERMEDIATE TYPES
    INDO-MELANID

    Gracile Indid-Veddid intermediate typical of the Dravidian populations of southeastern India, and present as a population element throughout the Subcontinent. Indo-Melanids are short-bodied and long-limbed, heavily pigmented, long-headed and usually mesorrhine. Nasal convexity and curly hair are common features, and the Indo-Melanid morphology has been described as mostly Europoid, with the exception of very dark skin color.

    MALID

    Veddid subvariety of the southern Indian inlands, showing Negritid admixture.

  38. Peter Aryan

    Please try to answer all of this long winded question, thanks.Firstly, you seem interested in this topic and well educated on it say as much as me(love your theories they make sense based on my previous online research and discussion with other people of indian and indoiranian+near eastern origin), in fact even more, but how are you valid, are you an anthroplogist, scientist of some sort, or do you at least have sources?(no offence) Can you pleases check out these genetic findings on this website:http://171.66.122.45/content/11/6/994.full
    does this data not contradict yours?, is it valid? Also Pakistanis are not genetically distinct are they and I heard Iranians, Indians, and All Aryan(IndoIranian) are closely related genetically as are all Aryans including Europeans is this true?Dravidians are essentially just darker meditteranean( a phenotype not really from the medditeranean) Caucasians with a distinct language and culture? Tribals seem like none Caucasians that hav adapted some local languages but kept their own. So essentially you are saying Europe, the Middle East and Caucauses were likely inhabited by australoids from east africa who became caucasians in india and out side of india, So the australoids would have been the first race to diverge off of negroids andif I am right according to recent research they would have mixed with neadrathals who mixed with everyone who was not negroid, i think you should use Congoid or Africanoid so as not to offend anyone. one more are, veddoids, tamils/elamites, and kalash intermediates or something and aren’t nagas mongoloid. Thanks for correcting Afrocentrists, but accutually some NS Germans, and Even Hitler knew Indians and Iranians were Aryan and Caucasian, this is how he got the swatika and he also loved vegetariansm, hinduism, and bhuddism. I’m pretty removed since I’m Roman Catholic Humanist.

  39. Peter Aryan

    What are Andamans and Negritos racially?

    • Based on genes, I think that they are some sort of Asiatics. I do not know about the Andamans. The Andaman genes are very distinct, but how distinct I am not sure.

      The Mani in Thailand have genes that look Thai.

      The Aeta in the Philippines have genes that look Filipino.

      Etc etc.

      However, if you do race by skull type, all Negritos are members of the Australoid race, as are Tamil types and others that look like Tamils in India.

      Genetically, the Australoid Race only has Aborigines and Papuans in it.

  40. Pingback: A Recent Comment on Human Genetics and Races « Robert Lindsay

  41. Aryan Putra

    Hello everyone! this is a wonderful page well, i am also very curious about these things as most of you are anyway i want to know your views about bengali kulin brahmins ?????

  42. Aegon

    Well Australoid race is not just restricted to south india..please have a look at peoples of UP,bihar and bengal many of these people have broader features and shorter statue than average south indians…forward cast in TN is 20% even in UP,bihar forward cast population is around 20%

  43. Aegon

    Genetic affinities of srilankan tamils
    See also: History of Sri Lanka, Genetic studies on Sinhalese, and Sinhalisation
    Genetic admixture of Sri Lankan Tamil by Dr. Gautam K. Kshatriya..

    According to a genetic admixture study by Dr. Gautam K. Kshatriya in 1995, the Sri Lankan Tamil are closely related to the Sinhalese and to a lesser extent, Bengalis and Indian Tamils. Kshatriya found the Sri Lankan Tamils to have a greater contribution from the Sinhalese of Sri Lanka (55.20% +/- 9.47) than Indian Tamils (16.63% +/- 8.73). With both the Sri Lankan Tamils and Sinhalese sharing a common gene pool of 55%. They are farthest from the indigenous Veddahs.[77] This close relationship between the Sri Lankan Tamils and Sinhalese makes sense, as the two populations have been in close proximity to each other historically, linguistically, and culturally for over 2000 years.[77]

    This is also supported by a genetic distance study, which showed low differences in genetic distance between Tamils and the Sinhalese.[78] Tamils and the Sinhalese also share similar cultures in terms of kinship classification, cousin marriage, dress and housing.[79]

    Furthermore, a study looking at genetic variation of the FUT2 gene in the Sri Lankan Tamil and Sinhalese population, found similar genetic backgrounds for both ethnic groups, with little genetic flow from other neighbouring Asian population groups.[80] Studies have also found no significant difference with regards to blood group, blood genetic markers and single-nucleotide polymorphism between the Sri Lankan Tamils and other ethnic groups in Sri Lanka.[81][82][83] Another study has also found “no significant genetic variation among the major ethnic groups in Sri Lanka”.[84]. This is further supported by a study which found very similar frequencies of alleles MTHFR 677T, F2 20210A & F5 1691A in South Indian Tamil, Sinhalese, Sri Lankan Tamil and Moor populations.[85]

    However, more modern studies looking at Alu polymorphism[86], VNTR[87] and genetic distance[78] have found the genetic relationship between the Sri Lankan Tamil and Sinhalese to be much smaller than Kshatriya’s findings (11-30%).

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sri_Lankan_Tamil_people

    • Cauc_Neg_Mong_Aus_Monkey

      “Tamils are actually non-human, and of extra terrestrial origins. May be that’s why they look different, and makes you people classify them with almost anything from Caucasian to Common Housefly. Actually, Tamils are aliens from an outer galaxy who have learened to adapt to any environment they live in.”

      I sincerely wish that we accepted that humans are animals – in the first place. We share almost 99% of our DNA with the house cat!

      Secondly we all are primates – with the monkeys being our cousins.

      And finally, like most animals (i.e. dogs, cats and cattle) – we tend to be in different colors as per the environments we live in.

      ‘Race’ is a misconception that has led to many a blood bath. I wish we could stop ranting about this.

      This is how I would classify Aryans/Dravidians/Berbers/Africans/Chinese and etc: 99% Cat Genes, 99.99% Similarities to our Monkey Cousins… and only 0.0001% of traits/DNA (or whatever it is) making us black, white or yellow.

      I don’t think we have purple, green or blue yet!

      So, Lindsay….

      Is it worth talking a lot about what makes and does not make the 0.0001%???

      You humans are hopeless mokeys hooked on to the www! That’s it! I have spoken…

  44. India

    Hey Robert,

    Can you please explain this ancestry by DNA table. It shows people in India to be the most diverse in the world in their genetic makeup. http://www.ancestrybydna.com/abd-average-results.php

    It shows Indians to be:

    58.9% European
    5.1% Subsaharan African
    26.9% East Asian
    9.1% Native American.

    Other really diverse countries are Puerto Rico and Mexico.

    Puerto Ricans are:

    55% European
    32.6% Sub-Saharan African
    3.6% East Asian
    8.8% Native American

    Mexicans are:

    43.2% European
    5.6% Subsaharan African
    4.4% East Asian
    46.8% Native American

    • Ancestry by DNA is shit.

      Indians have ZERO Black in them. They have ZERO Amerindian in them.

      I don’t think Mexicans and Puerto Ricans have any Asian in them at all.

      • FG

        No, it’s pretty accurate. Keep in mind that the stats on their website aren’t based on representative samples from those countries but just people of those particular backgrounds who ordered tests. Not surprisingly they sometimes have a hard time distinguishing Asian and Native American ancestry so some of the results are like skewed for that reason.

        • East Indians have no Black in them. Zero. Where do they get off saying they are 5% Black? It’s crap.

        • FG

          Some do. Many of those living in the Caribbean are part African. There are also many Indians who live in Africa itself. And of course there has been migration from Africa to India over the millenia. Though, probably just a trickle at most times.

  45. India

    Well, the Native American connection with India could be some of the historic migrations into Northern India like the Huns who are thought to have carried some Siberian elements.

  46. India

    Also I read in another research paper that Afghans (mainly the Pashtuns) may not be as Iranic as previously thought. Afghans may actually be more Indic than they are Iranic i.e. They have both Indic and Iranian but more Indic in their DNA.

    Then you also get some Jewish weirdos who try to claim Pashtuns as one of the lost tribes.

    • Cyrus

      It’s a natural progression from the Caucasus to Northern India, with the terrain dictating a lot of the human interaction. Hence, some Pashtuns look Punjabi.

      I think the gene-flow has always been more North to South in this case, but that is my own personal bias.

      Culturally, Pashtuns have little in common with Indians or Pakistanis, though.

    • Azadwa

      are you dumb lol , typical indian nationalist ! Pashtuns NEVER intermarried with non-Pashtuns ! we aren’t even allowed to marry people from different cities or villages lmaoooo ! its against the pashtinwali/afghaniyat ! those pathans of bollywood arent pashtun and can’t speak pashto ! Dumb Indian nationalist ! I see this filth on nowruz / new kaal smh !

      We have our own culture , our nakruzi , afghaniyat , language , culture

      and we defiently do not look like you ! i have green eyes and light brown hair smh

      Long Live Afghanistan

  47. husayn


    tamil muslims

  48. husayn


    this is australian aborigine he looks nothing like dravidians nose is different as i said dravidians have finer features than this no matter how dark they get
    to view pic scroll down touch on image to make bigger

  49. husayn

    so post is good just click on link pic will show up without having to do anything thanks

  50. husayn

    http://www.globalpost.com/dispatch/asia/100326/maralinga-nuclear-testing-fallout-british-cherie-blair okay article not interested in just pic aborigines these nice guys have different nose shape then dravidians i have not tamils with such wide noses

  51. husayn

    correction 4 above post i have not seen tamils with this wide of a nose

  52. husayn

    http://realhistoryww.com/world_history/ancient/Indus_Valley_India_1.htm so in this link at top are australiod people then asian type then dravidians the dravidians are nothing like australoid the features are very different

  53. husayn

    http://www.sanjaal.com/gal-zen/indian-models-and-stars/Hot-South-Indian-Telugu-Tamil-Models-279.jpg.php southern indian women they all mostly have oval face and round eyes whether brown or fair

  54. husayn


    jews of southern india

  55. husayn

    Oral traditions claim Jewish trading contacts between Kerala and ancient Israel from the time of Solomon (about 950 BC). These are supposedly referred to in the Old Testament Books of Kings and Chronicles. A refugee Jewish presence in Kerala is claimed from the time of King Nebuchadnezar of Babylon in 500 BC. Other traditions claim the first Jews came just after the Roman destruction of the Jerusalem temple in 70 AD. The earliest Jewish presence in Kerala is thought to have come at Kodungallur (Cranganore), a trading town just north of Cochin harbor

  56. husayn

    Traders in King Solomon’s time carried out regular sea voyages to the South Indian coast, bartering for ivory, apes, and silver, and the first Cochin Jews may have been the children of Israelite sailors and local women[5]. Following the destruction of the First Temple in the Siege of Jerusalem (587 BC), some Jewish exiles came to India[6]. But it was after the destruction of the Second Temple in 70 CE that the first wave of large numbers of settlers came to Cranganore, an ancient port near Cochin.[7] Cranganore, now transliterated as Kodungallur, but also known under other names, is a city of legendary importance to this community.

  57. Cyrus

    The Pashtuns certainly are a unique bunch, Robert. I’ll give you that.

  58. husayn

    His Majesty, Sultan Qaboos bin Said of Oman
    king qaboos of oman resembles tamil muslims

  59. All very interesting and certainly subject to many arguments. Homo Spiens Sapins- the lot of them-developed in Africa, so why is there no genetic evidence of these original Africans in India. I’m not an expert on genitics, but I do believe that Homo Sapiens migrated along the fertile crecent, reaching India and some 8000 to 10,000 years ago. What happened to the genes they brought with them.? I’m working on an essay about the human journey out of Africa and the more I research I do, the more complex it becomes. Did Homo Sapiens replace the earlier Hominids (Homo Ergaster and Homo Erectus) or were they extinct already? Do you have any date on the earliest agricultural settlements in the Hindus Valley?

    • The African genes from the OOA people are all gone, pretty much. There are no modern African genes outside of Africa, except in Europe and the Middle East, but those modern movements in the past 3,000 years or so.

      Homo Sapiens reached India 76,000 years ago.

      • Wade in MO

        “There are no modern African genes outside of Africa, except in Europe and the Middle East, but those modern movements in the past 3,000 years or so”

        Don;t forget about the Siddi.(I believe that;s spelled right)

  60. Sorry for the errors and typos. My eyesight is not what it used to be.

  61. 76,000 years in India, you say. Homo sapien (modern) at the earliest reached Australia, via india 60,000 yeras ago. There is no evidence of earlier homo sapiens in Asia. There were probably more than one migration out of Africa, later than the 65,000 to 70,000 years BCE when the first Homo Sapiens Sapiens left Africa. Where is your data from?

  62. India

    Interestingly, a lot of geneticists now debunk the idea of any inward migrations into India and believe the considerable genetic diversity in Indians have devloped in india over a timecale of 40,000 to 50,000 years.

    Of course there have been small scale migrations but these have not had any signficant impact on the Indian genepoll, and majority of Indian genes are indigenous to India itself hence even the upper castes share considerable genetic similarities with the lower castes.

    They believe India is the source of ancestry for all non-Aarican-Populations i.e. both Euroepans and Asians. And given India’s diverse phenotypes that includes both European and Asiatic features, I am inclined to go with them.

  63. Thanks for your reply. The upper castes in India often attempted to marry light-skinned (men or women), since it appears that lighter skin colours were favoured. There are more light-skinned people in northern India than in the south, thus there must be a genetic difference between the two groups that produce lighter skin pigmentation. This could well be due to migration into Northern India from . The Greeks reached China and Alexander the Great introduced Greek ideas to India (about 325 BCE), so if there was any mingling of these European races with the Indian population, it was much, much later timewise. It is my understanding that geneticlly, all Europeans are related to people from the Asian steppes (Mongolia?), and likewise, certain mutated genes originating in Africa can still be found in Asia and Europe. There is no evidence that Homo Sapien reached India or Australia prior to 60,000 BCE, although a single date of 70,000 years has been postulated from a discovery of human remains in AU. If more recent, and highly controversial discoveries from USA (Ohio) that date a settlement (campsite) 50,000 (+) BCE and some from Mexico (40,000) years and from Chili at 35,00o BCE are correct, the history of human migration needs to be re-written. 50,000 years ago Homo Sapien could have walked to the North American continent without crossing ice fields. Much controversy yet and the intermingling of races over the milleniums makes genetics complicated and difficult to relate to human migrations with the exception of specific markers, (mutated genes).

  64. ‘I have yet to meet a high-caste Indian who will denounce caste. If you ever meet one, please introduce them to me.’
    To my knowledge, all high caste Indians denounce caste- except in so far as they may simultaneously put forward a claim to be classified as ‘untouchable’ or ‘educationally backward’ , or ‘belonging to a scheduled tribe (i.e. aboriginal status) ‘ and thus secure the benefits of affirmative action.
    Thus, the martial Gujjars (thought to be Scythian invaders) who gave their name to Gujerat, in the same manner as the Franks gave their name to France, are creating a huge nuisance- blocking roads and so on- in an effort to have themselves downgraded to untouchable status.
    Race is pretty much meaningless in a very poor country. If you have money or muscle power you can always move to a neighborhood, or gain a client base, which will call you whatever you like- ‘Pope’, ‘King’, ‘Whitest person in the Universe’, ‘Most gorgeous hunk ever’ (see the ‘Satya Sai Baba”), Mahatma and so on.
    The same is true of language. I can either learn English/Tamil/Sanskrit or whatever or just get a PhD and a Professorship in English/Tamil/Sanskrit or whatever by either paying for it or making such a nuisance of myself, burning buses, orchestrating mob violence, that it has to be granted to me as part of the democratic process.
    Indeed, since the possession of a PhD entitles its holder to better treatment in Jail- every illiterate thug has a Doctorate or two.

    Race only became interesting if can serve as a basis for wage, price or service provision discrimination. The problem is that for a large country with low market participation and a merely cosmetic law and order apparatus- wages don’t matter because the vast majority aren’t being paid, they’re merely subsisting; prices don’t matter- as they say in Bihar ‘theft is property’; service-provision discrimination…what service provision? I don’t see no stinkin’ service-provision here!
    It is quite true that a hundred years ago, all English educated Indians had their own theory of how their own particular caste/tribe was the most nearly equal to the British because… urm… they were actually White people? This in turn gave rise to the notion that their sub-caste was actually whiter than White people- take Gandhi. On arrival in London he finds a bunch of Vegetarian eccentrics. These guys considered themselves the finest flower of Christian Civilization- clearly chowing down on grass is what Pythagoras and Plato and Christ and Kant and so on considered the summit of human evolution- and Gandhi, gleefully throwing his hand in with them, propounds the natural corollary- viz. his sub-sect of Modh Bania (or, once they ostracized him, he himself) were Whiter, more Christian, more British, more ‘Scientific’, more ‘Secular’ but also more ‘Socialist’ than anyone else. This was very funny, it is true, but it had catastrophic consequences.
    An English idler by name of Wilfred Scarwen Blunt had, in that spirit of mischief that masquerades as moral outrage, hit upon the notion of an Arab Caliphate- thus setting off the chain of events that culminated in 9/11.
    Gandhi, obviously, being Whiter than any conceivable White, was obliged to go one step further and endorse the ‘Khilafat’ movement in India. Ostensibly this was about restoring the Ottoman Caliph- a hilarious notion by itself- but, in simple terms, it amounted to the leading Hindu nutjob of the period saying ‘Yes, yes. I too want the establishment of a UNIVERSAL Caliphate- i.e. establishment of an Islamic theocracy under the leadership of a descendant of the Holy Prophet.’
    But all that was terribly last century. Now, India has a P.M who says ‘Muslims must have the first right on resources’- i.e. they must be more thoroughly splattered with that bullshit which is our politicians one unfailing resource.

  65. While there may be some truth hidden amongst some of your statements, I think they should be better focused, with less gibberish and speculation.

    • vic

      Gibberish? Why gibberish? Gibberish from ‘gibber-jabber’? – I speak a foreign language to you don’t I?
      Has this anything to do with the fact that I know what I’m talking about?
      I rather think so.

      G’day mate!

  66. As I speak a number of foreign languages, including the one you are using, even though it lacks anything that even remotely would indicate that you have any credentials as a specialist in Indian anthropology -but then you are a JOURNALIST, not an anthropologist, so I will excuse you for writing the way you do.

    You might want to consider studying MODESTY. Perhaps you will stop thinking so highly of yourself.

  67. vic

    To accept you as an interlocutor is to abandon, not modesty merely, but any notion of shame.
    Why?
    In any interchange between us, you alone show yourself up as a bare forked creature, howling to the elements, whereas I must perforce- to the eye of discernment- appear one more favoured by fortune, gratuitously mis-using his gifts to poke fun at a Wallaby intellectual wannabee.

    More than modesty, there is humility- ‘the beauty was not in the madness, tho’ my errors and wrecks lie about me’- humility, Sir, is endless.

  68. A psychiatrist or psychologist would probably like to study your personality. I wonder if Narcissus’s self adoration was greater than yours.

  69. vic

    You have previously identified yourself as an Anthropologist and dismissed me as a Journalist.
    You now make guesses about how Psychiatrists and Psychiatrists might respond to me.
    You now mention Liriope’s son.
    I know why you can’t tell me why the three sentences above, taken together, are very funny.
    But, is there no one you can turn to? No one, who can tell you why you are old Tiresias to your own fecund Echo?

  70. dubz

    I find it interesting how whites of European descent still want to dominate the geopolitical conversation and an interpretation of the evidence, and believe that any other observations, unsupported by them, are invalid.

    Some of the input, especially the comments of Robert Lindsay, is reminiscent of the type of monolithically-narrow views that whites upheld to support their arguments years ago.

    Several things have been made clear over the years, first of all, the way the three exclusive racial categories, Negroid, Mongoloid, and Caucasoid were being used have been proven to be more ideologically based, superficial, and unscientific, and were developed out of an age of ignorance and intolerance, when even the most astute white anthropologists were to often hypothesizing and summarizing solely through the lens of a culturally-biased European worldview.

    Geopolitics, history, and science have historically and inevitably ended up as “strange bedfellows.”

    Now with this being a known fact, and with science supposedly moving into a new and integritous era of social responsibleness, hopefully fostering a nonbiased analysis of the facts and no longer shackled by erroneous indiscretions of the past, instead of forwarding the science, when convenient, whites still choose to continually dismiss the evidence while attempting to spin the same old tired and racist arguments.

    After centuries of Eurocentric cultural thought lording over all scientific inquiry and demanding that the European worldview be unquestionably accepted as the most rational perspective derived from an unadulterated truth, the notion of any competing postulations made by black people, defined as Afrocentrisms, a term now used by some whites as almost a pejorative term, are regarded as scientific fantasies lacking any realistic academic integrity.

    Let’s not forget people, these are the same “brilliant” European scholars who were attempting to exaggerate the so-called Caucasoid genetic presence through out the world, by not only creating categories of proto-Caucasians to include Australian aborigines, but also attempted to claim a majority of the East African population deeming these people to be a Caucasian subgroup denoted as Hamitic, anthropologically, “honorary dark-skinned whites”. These are the same bigoted scholars who fraudulently distorted the size of Europe on the world map, making it much larger than the Africa continent while denoting Europe as an continent unto itself, which we know is an unmitigated lie void of intellectual honesty.

    Robert Lindsay, you say that these dark-skinned people in India are not Black people? Well, European colonizers called them, “black”, India’s racialized culture which originally based caste hierarchy on skin color deemed them as being “black”, and they themselves, as do the Australian aborigines, called themselves, Black people.

    And no different than other Black people who live in and are derived from Africa proper, they are beginning to slowly take hold of the social political power of being a Black people.

    Regardless of how or when they left Africa, they were a Black people when they left, and they continue to be a Black people wherever they presently reside.

    Have you ever heard of the Dalit Black Panther Movement, which developed the Dalit Panther Party modeled after the Black Panther Party in the US?

    Or the article “Kala Swatantrya Din”(Black Independence Day) that was published in “Sadhana?”

    Or this statement made by Dravidian journalist V.T. Rajshekar who published the first issue of the Dalit Voice, and penned a book titled, Dalit: The Black Untouchables of India, who in a 1987 publication entitled the African Presence in Early Asia, stated that:
    “The African-Americans also must know that their liberation struggle cannot be complete as long as their own blood-brothers and sisters living in far off Asia are suffering. It is true that African-Americans are also suffering, but our people here today are where African-Americans were two hundred years ago.”

    How about this excerpt from the The Dalit Voice website:
    The Black Untouchables of India constitute about 20% of India’s over 1,000 million population. Together with 10% Tribals, they make up a formidable 30% — far exceeding the population of entire Europe. But such a vast humanity, constituting the core of India’s original inhabitants, is kept enslaved by less than 15% alien Aryans, India’s ruling class.
    It’s interesting how historically, whites used the term black pejoratively to denote people throughout Asia and Africa when it favored Western domination, but are quick to reject this term if these same people who were deemed “black” begin to use this same word universally as a term signifying commonality and solidarity.

    These people are black, they originated from Black Africa, and the way they are treated they do have something in common with other Black people throughout the world! And thank god they have realized this beyond the lies.

    http://wn.com/Dalit_Panther
    http://www.dalitvoice.org/

  71. Dan

    This is interesting, where do North East Indians fit into the picture? (bangladesh, eastern regions)? I am Bengali and I have been confused for being Arabic, Indian, Pakistani, Latin American, and another one of those middle eastern types. My understanding is a large Afghan, Middle Eastern, Central Asian Turkic population moved into that region and became the ruling class. Personally, I have also noticed that I am the tallest person in my family, and on average from where I am from. I’m not trying to be smug but I am taller then most Indians, North Indian, Middle Eastern, Europeans, Americans, and one of those Afghan people. I am 6.3 1/2, almost 6.4 and I have distinct features which people can instantly seem remember me by and have been told I am attractive by women of different races. However, my parents and grandparents tell me I happen to be of dravidian stock with a tiny bit of the supposed Aryan thing, but that was thousands of years ago. From what I know, there is no recorded history of any inter-mixing of any kind in my family, and as I have been told, the only inter-mixing occurred in the port cities and the central districts in Bangladesh, where my family is not from; where supposedly a large Iranian/Armenian contingent arrived even after the Aryan invasions. Whats your take on this region?

  72. Asian Philosopher Om Tat Sat

    This…

    “Actually, caste in India is quite complex. High caste Indians from South India are often quite dark, and lower caste Indians from the North can be quite light. However, there is a general tendency for higher castes to be lighter skinned. In particular, for Indian women, Whiter has always been better, and Indian women have been trying to lighten their skins for as long as anyone can remember.”

    …is NOT true!

    Caste has absolutely no correlation with skin tone in South Asia. South Asians are BROWN, whether they like it or not. Various shades of brown, having nothing to do with caste.

    And contrary to what you are led to believe, Indians do not in general find white skin attractive, but rather sickly. What Indians like is a Beyonce shade and that’s what they are trying to achieve when they use the skin lightening creams. However there are plenty of Indians who like medium-dark brown skin as well. I’m sure Dota is not one of them.

    Robert, I’ll see if I can set up a trip to India for you hosted by some of my relatives. That why you can experience it for yourself rather than speculate.

    • Dota

      “”…is NOT true!

      Caste has absolutely no correlation with skin tone in South Asia.””

      Actually it does. Not always, but often enough.

      Since I’m originally from Mumbai, I’ll use the Marathi people as an illustration.

      Here’s what some typical Marathi women look like, most likely peasant caste

      http://www.fotopedia.com/albums/pFU-UDYcBho/entries/8EgVeGZ592A

      Here’s what a marathi Brahmin woman looks like:

      Note the grey eyes, the cheek bones and the hair? Typical Caucasoid phenotype.

      Bollywood actress Madhuri Dixit is another Marathi Brahmin

      Bollywood is dominated by upper caste Indians and Muslims.

  73. Asian Philosopher Om Tat Sat

    A few models and celebs? That’s all you got?

    Desi skin tone runs the gamut within families. Are you now going to say that’s due to cuckholding?

    Digga, please.

    • Dota

      Some of Dad’s closest friends are Brahmins. Want me to link you to their facebook profiles so you can see for yourself? I’ve been around Indians a lot longer than you have and I can safely say that Brahmins generally stand out in a crowd. Not always, but often enough. And this isn’t about skin colour or tone, but features, bone structures, genetics. The term ‘Brown’ is highly artificial and a word used in cultural conditioning.

  74. Asian Philosopher Om Tat Sat

    Dude, you’ve not even lived in India long enough or travelled her length and breadth to be saying these things. Evern been to far northeastern states? How about the deep south? What you are saying about color and bone structure is WRONG.

    You don’t know jack. Hang it up.

    • Dota

      Race is a very real thing and best defined as a genetically differentiated population. Terms like White and Brown are socio/political markers and have little to do with biology. The renowned geneticist Luca Cavalli-Sforza reported that North Indians were 3 times closer to Europeans than they were to others. I’m personally not very interested in race/genetics, but only a fool would confuse biology with socio/political terminology. If you want to argue this topic any further, take it up with Robert as he’s clearly studied it way more than I have (or ever will).

  75. Asian Philosopher Om Tat Sat

    Again, what does that have to do with caste being correalated with skin color and bone structure… which it is NOT? Indians look like the regions they are from. A Northeasterner will look “chinky” regardless of caste, etc.

    • Dota

      Everything. Today’s Brahmins are closest (genetically) to the Aryan settlers who migrated to India. Certain North Indians resemble Pasthuns and Persians because a lot of those genes have been flowing our way over the centuries. The caste system enforced a rigid social structure and caste endogamy was a by product of this. Hence the Brahmins and Kshatriyas generally appear more caucazoid than the rest of the population which is a mix. There’s a bit of caucazoid genes floating around in Dravidian populations as well. But the upper castes have a very distinct look AND culture from the rest. You won’t notice this in the diaspora where all desis are homogenized as ‘brown.’

      • Dota

        But the upper castes have a very distinct look AND culture from the rest.

        I want to add a bit more to this from the cultural angle. Brahmins have always monopolized literacy through out India’s history (except now ofcourse) and have hence produced quite a literary culture over the centuries. Writers like Tulsidas and kalidas quickly come to mind. In modern times one immediately thinks of Jhumpa Lehiri, amoung many others. This is not to say that other castes cannot write, but for the most part people (rerdless of religion) stick to their caste vocations. Muhammad Iqbal is arguably one of the greatest poets in Indian history with his “sare Jahan se acha” almost making national anthem. Iqbal is of Kashmiri Brahmin stock. The outstanding poet Mir Taqi Mir, although a Muslim like Iqbal, is a descendant of the Brahmin Kashmiri Bhatt clan. Muslim Brahmins are just as inclined towards literature and the arts as their Hindu counterparts.

        Similarly Gujaratis excel at trade because of their caste. As Aakar Patel points out, Gujaratis produce very little literature and rely on Bengali literature translated into Gujarati. Does this mean Gujjus can’t write? Of course not, however they’ve been following their caste based culture for centuries and hence naturally gravitate towards those occupations. As Patel also points out, the only decent library in Gujarat is the St Andrews library in Surat, built by the Brits. The mercantile Gujjus have no use for literature since their caste precludes it. This is not true for Brahmins in the north.

    • Xera

      Umm I have seen bengali’s and none of them are anything chinese looking, only some are.

  76. Asian Philosopher Om Tat Sat

    “Today’s Brahmins are closest (genetically) to the Aryan settlers who migrated to India.”

    AIT? Scientific proof? That theory has been debunked in academic circles decades ago because of lack of any evidence whatsoever. There is
    no “aryan” man. The word is “arya” and its an adjective, not a noun. So far you have only shown that your familiarity with India is with the Western side only.

    I would suggest that you travel the length, breadth and width of the sub-continent to meet the myriad of peoples and looks contained therein across castes, but since you hate India so much I know that you won’t.

    Brahmin and ksyatriya castes are not confined to the Northwest. You are showing your ignorance and your ass here.

    • Dota

      “Brahmin and ksyatriya castes are not confined to the Northwest.”

      I know that. Doesn’t change very much. The Aryans were quite real and archeological evidence proves this, including the introduction of the Horse, the chariot and other goodies into the Sub continent. Again, I won’t bother with this because Robert has studied it way more than I have.

      Robert L

      If you wish, feel free to resume this debate from here on.

  77. Dota

    I forgot to add Salman Rushdie, another Muslim Brahmin of Kashmiri decent. Completely caucazoid phenotype. If you saw a photograph of him without knowing his ethnicity, you would think he was white.

    • Around here it is not uncommon to mistake the Punjabis for Whites or maybe light skinned Hispanics (who are really just Spaniards). I often think they are Meds like Italians.

      Who is the Pakistani cricket star who is getting so famous? He looks like a Brit or maybe even a German.

      • Abrar

        Shahid Afridi of the afridi clan he is a typical Pashtun.

      • ishvaj123

        Hey there Robert. I once went to Kashmir with my dad and met a kashmiri man there. He told me that unlike my father i didn’t look like a typical Indian and if i were to settle down in Kashmir, he would happily consider me to be one of his people as i looked Iranian to him. I laughed at that point, but now that i know i am a descendant of the ancient Kamoja i think he might’ve had a point. But still, is there a distinctive Indian look?

        • Sure, there is a sort of an Indian look, but it encompasses a wide variety of phenotypes. It is a sort of “I know it when I see it” type thing. When you see people with those phenotypes, you often think they are Indian. However, Indians are quite variable, and absent their typical clothing, jewelry, headgear, etc., it can be quite difficult to determine whether the person is Indian or not. Around here, many North Indians are often confused with Hispanics.

        • Hallstatt Nordic Shawn

          Robert is correct about the wide array of Indian looks. But relative to Hispanics, Indians have skulls that are relatively long compared to width. Also the nose narrower with a higher bridge. Facial and body hair is more prevalent as well. These characteristics are more pronounced among Northern Indians compared to S. Indians. Many Hispanics and Northern Indians have some degree of Caucasoid admixture, so both within and between groups there is much variance. The characteristics I described are general tendencies.

    • pepperroncini

      I can tell he is South Asian. Does not look at all Europid and not particularly South-West Asian either.

  78. Asian Philosopher Om Tat Sat

    Wrong. AIT has no scientific basis. It was a pre-scientific myth created by British to get Indians on board with their program. They took a language theory and tried to extrapolate it to genetics. We have moved away from myth toward science since that time and there is no peer reviewed scientific genetic studies to support those mythic claims.

    Caste is found throughout South Asia, beyond the borders of India and has nothing to do with color of skin or bone structure.

    And there are and have always been philosophers and writers amongst all the castes and amongst mixed castes (which tend to create new sub-castes).

    Next you will try to claim that the authors of the Upanishads were mostly brahmins!

    You don’t know your own history, and what little you think you know of it, you are ashamed of.

    • No, it’s true. There was an Aryan incursion into India. That’s what brought the languages, and it did bring some genes also.

      Now I know you are a Hindutwadi for all intents and purposes. But I have known this for a long time. There is nothing special about Hindutva. Because all Hindutva is is the typical worldview and prejudices of your average educated Indian Hindu (even the most liberal and Westernized, as in your case) and has taken to a rather dramatic extreme. Nevertheless, there is a Hindutva in ever Hindu, more or less. And it’s also not really a radical movement at all because it’s view is the typical view of the average Indian Hindu.

      I have met many Indian Hindus. They have all been exactly like you. In many cases, worse. They only differ on issues of social conservatism. Some are more conservative, others are more liberal. But the basic Hindutva mindset is the same in all of them, across the board, regardless of caste, education, any of that.

      Anyway, what exactly are you saying here? You don’t agree that Indic languages came from outside of India due to an Aryan incursion 3500 YBP from the northwest? Because that is now established by science. That Indian Hindus reject this is tragic, but it shows how anti-scientific and emotional they are.

      All in all, the more Indian Hindus I meet, the more I agree with Dota’s critique of India. I feel he is 100% correct.

      And you, fair maiden, are a River in Egypt.

  79. Asian Philosopher Om Tat Sat

    Nope. Nobody would ever think Rushdie was “white”. He has a very distinct Northwestern Desi look about him. And its not attractive.

    Who’s Rama book is more popular – Tulsi Das’s or Valmiki’s?

    Which caste is Valmiki from?

  80. Asian Philosopher Om Tat Sat

    “Maybe not to you, because your outlook is filtered through socio/political terms like brown/white ect… But read Robert’s descriptions of the Desis pictured in his post.”

    And your view is filtered through outdated elementary school level social studies text book terms like Caucasoid, Negroid and Mongoloid.

    Those text books did not know where to place South Asians. They said South Asians have “caucasoid features, negroid skin tone and mongoloid hair”!!!

    When in actuality you will find South Asians with any combination of the above – ACROSS ALL CASTES.

    Race is social construct. What is scientific however is GENETICS. Genetics is a NEW SCIENCE to us. That’s why most people are still mired in outdated race theories that have no hard scientific bearing but are based on soft sciences like social studies.

    South Asia is a HUGE area of the globe containing many phenotypes.

    • Dota

      Sorry, I’m not getting into this debate because I’m just not interested. Read some of Robert’s earlier posts.

    • We are not race deniers here.

      Where to put Indians is an interesting question. However, most of them clearly go into the Caucasoid race. They are the most different and unusual Caucasoids of all though, much differentiated from all the rest. They may well be “ancient Caucasoids” especially the Dravidian stock. On other charts, they are mostly Caucasoids, but they are separated to some extent from the rest and are actually partway towards Asians.

      Obviously, in the NE, Indians are Asians. Negritos are also Asians.

    • Genetics is largely upholding the view of race as real and not a construct.

  81. Asian Philosopher Om Tat Sat

    There is no debate. You do not have the knowledge base to discuss this and neither does Robert. I read some of his earlier posts and he also qoutes some outdated social studies racial theories that came into existence during the pre-genetic science era.

    Everything that we *thought* we knew about global peoples has had to undergo a serious overhaul since the introduction of genetic science and we are only in the infant stages of this technology.

  82. Gay State Girl

    Lindsay
    What do you see in Dota? Just another arrogant bastard who thinks the whole world revolves around him.

    • He’s funny, he’s one of the smartest people on here, and I love the way he burns people. He just kicks their asses!

      • Gay State Girl

        Burns people? Kicks people’s asses?
        I think hurling out random insults is a good indicator that you lack a sound argument. Gay Area Guy is light years ahead of him.

        • Dota

          By your own admission I made you stronger didn’t I?

          I can just see GSG in her gym shorts hammering away at a punching bag while occasionally throwing a malevolent glance at a poster of me. She hates me but draws her strength from me.

          You’re cute when you’re vulnerable😉

        • He generally kicks ass with his arguments too. He’s one of the best commenters on here. Him and Hacienda.

          BAG is a kid. He’s like you. Smart, but, you know. Not in the same league as Dota or Hacienda. Those mofos are SMART!

        • Gay State Girl

          Nice to hear from you. I thought you were too suave to respond to my retarded posts.
          I have a better punching bag. If only she weren’t so ugly.
          http://www.facebook.com/people/Cynthia-Kling/634577146

        • Gay State Girl

          I love Hacienda.

          I don’t know what ‘league’ Dota is in.

        • Gay State Girl

          I have irrational hatred for a woman I’ve never met. I’m a law abiding person so she’ll never feel my hatred. I wish I could be nice but I can’t.

        • Hacienda

          “I love Hacienda.”

          WOW! I love it. I feel 10 years younger. You’re my spiritual friend on the net. You’ve said a lot of things that have really made on impression on me, too.

        • I love you too Hacienda.

          Honey.

          Sometimes.

        • Gay State Girl

          “You’ve said a lot of things that have really made on impression on me, too.”

          Examples?

        • Hacienda

          “Examples?”

          When you said you were made self-righteous due to your experience of suffering. That was striking. Honest and insightful.

          I also like your comment that Judaism is about meaning in itself, not related to other goals- finding cures for cancer, scientific knowledge, etc.
          I liked that, even Jews forget Jews don’t exist to help or impress other people.

          You’re honest about your sexuality and mental problems, too. And they aren’t run of the mill confessions, they are fresh.

          You’re also girlish. Older men love that.

        • Gay State Girl

          Hacienda
          Thank you.

      • Dota

        Actually Hacienda is way ahead of me. He’s also senior to me in age, but apart from that he has a far broader knowledge base than I do at this point. But I’m flattered you put me in the same league as him.

        • Dota

          @ GSG

          I never said your posts were retarded. I don’t think they are retarded from any angle, just somewhat banal =p

          You want retarded? take Brzezinski for a spin

        • Bay Area Guy

          You want retarded? take Brzezinski for a spin

          Dota, noooo!!!

          Do not tempt him!🙂

  83. Gay State Girl

    I’ve learned not to respond though. Trolls want you toi lose your mind.

  84. Gay State Girl

    I remember you liked Joachim Martillo for the same reason, even though he made up most of the shit. The part in which he claimed that Yiddish was entirely derived from Knaaic was a dead indicator.

  85. Gay State Girl

    JM also claimed to have invented some technology that prevents the government and corporations from controlling the internet. A sick man’s delusion. Everyone at Harvard thinks he’s a loon.

  86. Hello Robert,good morning!I was just showing my mum all of your findings.Great stuff.I am an Indian but I do not live in India or been there.My parents have been there though and she told me how many Telugu people(People from Hyderabad) and some Bengalis have light eyes. & you are totally right in saying that all Indians are Caucasoid though there might be variances.My cousins are Tamils and they have light eyes and fair skin.My skin tone falls more on the dusky side however my features are more Caucasoid.Since I live in Singapore,my Chinese friends tell me how different Indians features are. Personally I have seen North Indians and Punjabis who look more Australoid. And Southies like Telugus(hyderabad),Tamils and Malayalees(kerala) who look more caucasoid than them.Hence i think its true to tell that the peopling is indeed a mystery and quite unpredictable. And for those parochial people who keep classifying the South Indians closer to having round faces and resembling negroids,THEY SHOULD KEEP IN MIND THAT THE WORLD’S MOST BEAUTIFUL WOMAN AISHWARYA RAI IS A PURE SOUTH INDIAN who hails from Karnataka.And priyanka chopra is north indian.see,complete opposite😀 oh and Mr Lindsay,heard of aishwarya rai?

    • Thank you very much for this my Indian friend! And a good day to you too!

    • Yes I am aware of Aishwara Rai. She is so beautiful! Thx for stopping by my Indian friend and feel free to comment some more!

    • willywonka

      you stupid person she is south indian but probably has iranian, middle east, or turkish background….an some austraoid as well. Don’t deny the fact that a lot of south indians are australoid looking.Don’t deny ur australoid roots..lol.. All of india is a mix of australoids, caucasian european, caucasian middle east.

  87. dubz

    It’s not merely genetics, but how it is interpreted… Lindsay says, “European Whites are way closer to Blacks than Australoids.”

    I find it interesting that the Australoid who left Africa supposedly 76,000 years ago, as “Black Africans”, and are still very dark skinned (in most cases, definitively Black) with many having phenotypical features similar to many continental Africans, are being defined by the term, “Caucasoid”, a term which somehow derived from and has been unscientifically associated to a region peopled by a racial subgroup that just recently splintered from the African genome, i.e. “the white-skinned European.”

    What connection does the Dravidian and most subcontinental Indians have with the Caucus Mountains? How is it that white European Caucasians are so closely related to Africans genetically, and “supposedly” various other aboriginal Asians and Australians, but aboriginal Asians and Australians genetic connections to Black Africans are not even noteworthy, though they look more African than most Europeans and other Middle Easterners who are supposedly Africa’s closest kins?

    How can a people who ‘just recently’ evolved out of Africa genetically , use their phenotype and how it has been defined, as being the scientific basis for the discussing and the observation of various other people who left and have been living outside of Africa for 10’s of thousands of years?

    It goes like this, if we are not going to call the Dravidian and Australoid an African or Black people, it is even more preposterous and disingenuous to use the social construct, “Caucasian” or even “white” to define them.

    Africans who still reside on the continent and their first cousins who were the first to populate India, Southeast Asia, the Pacific Islands, and Australia are the oldest people in the world, and it should be they who define and interpret the evidence, and not those who have just recently left the fold.

    • Genetically, the people of India fall into the Caucasian group, even the Dravidians and so called Australoids. Although there are a few Asian types in the Northeast. However, on skulls, some Dravidians like Tamils area Australoids. The Australoid race is a viable determination based on either skulls or genes. You will get different lineups depending on which construct you choose.

      • Few Asian types? It is more than 3 million, enough to populate a few countries.

      • dubz

        All the people of India are Caucasian? Really?

        Your post is not making any scientific or anthropological sense. For how can anyone say that a transient people occupying an area of landmass, which is by far not genetically isolated, could all fall into one indefinable racial group, i.e. Caucasoid? It is obvious to almost anyone with a discerning eye that second probably only to Africa proper that the demographics that make up India or sub-continental Asia is very genetically diverse.

        Genetically speaking, there in no such thing as a ‘unique Caucasoid racial group’, let alone any evidence that the genetic and phenotypical dominant features observable amongst many so-called “white Europeans” predates any similar or almost identical genetic phenotypes observable or expressed in most of Asia or Africa. And besides skin color, which in the case of the so-called “white European Caucasian” is the absence of melanin, basically making their skin literally translucent, all other features are easily phenotypically-observable amongst other people who have an older and more diverse genetic variation that has been relatively constant for tens of thousands of years (predating that of so-called “white European Caucasoids” .)

        At best, the so-called “Caucasoid” who are actually a minority of nomadic people that developed in Western Asia, should, as mentioned previously, be a sub-group of some other more ancient people, such as Dravidians, Australoids, or of course Africans, and the archeological evidence shows that the anomalous phenotype of the “white Caucasoid” is not the earliest found even in Europe proper, or better yet Western Asia, and is one of the most recent derivations of Homo sapiens.

        Indians that have a broad phenotypic appearance and range of skin color that is similar to that of sub-Saharan Africans, do not have to identify with Africans, that’s their choice, but it is so sad that these same Indians who post here, being some the earliest to migrate out of Africa, acquiesce to European folklore, as to allow white Europeans to thrust upon them their erroneous and nonscientific racial standards, which of course subgroups and defines Indians by way of an obscure geographic region, the Caucasus Mountains, a region chosen to define the mythological origins of all “white people”,who in all actuality, are actually the Indian’s former colonial masters (what a coincidence.)

        • jayjay

          The only existant racial classification system is based on anthropometry. not on color. You can a spaniard or Itilian in the sun and he will trun dark. Its about the measurements of nose skull eyes etc.

  88. Rue

    I live is fresno,california.And personally I have seen many Indian here looking very european.I have had a tamil roommate once who besides being dark,had a rly sharp nose and other structures which was very American-ish. During my internship one of my colleagues was also a south indian and she was fairer than me!And a pretty lady.i am thinkin you should not keep your dating to Punjabi girls alone.You nvr know what you’ willll find.

  89. Hey,remember me.So anyway do I look caucasoid, australoid or just some crazy indian? http://twitpic.com/8zefp6

  90. Sekhmet

    Hey are you deleting my posts? What about the San people as your original Asian phenotype? Everyone came from Africa is this so hard for you to accept?
    http://www.krugerpark.co.za/africa_bushmen.html
    The San people considered the oldest in South Africa, look at their features.

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  92. Prahalad

    Just came across this blog. If Punjabis are so genetically closer to Europeans then why are they considered so puny that organisations like the British army and the police forces have had to lower their height/weight requirements in order to accommodate them?

    Also I’m sorry there is no way that Punjabis can be mistaken for Europeans. In western countries, most Europeans are tall/big enough to be bouncers, firemen, hired muscle, etc. Most Punjabis are too short and puny for those occupations.

  93. deshmukh

    this is my favourite actress,a south indian,rukmini,a well established bharatanaatyam dancer as well.I noticed how she could also look like those half african and half white girls.why is it that some indians have really curly hair and some have extremely straight?

  94. This guy really looks like making fun rather than writing an article.
    But anyways he is misleading people , as he didnt provide any reliable sourse for his claims and just concluded what he believes is the TRUTH ….!!

  95. willywonka

    (According to your research)…to summarize…i have understood that the first indians were australoids..left africa around 70 000 years ago settled in india…then around 20 000 years ago Caucasians from the middle east came in india…the australoids and caucasians mixed. Later around 5000 years ago..turks europeans (aryans) invaded india. I HOPE YOU CAN PROVE ALL THESE STATEMENTS!!!!! then u state… there are phenotypical differences between australoids(original indians), caucasians from the middle east, and the aryan invaders..however they are all genetically caucasian…. My question is….are/were australoids(first indians) genetically caucasian? and if whites and australoids are genetically caucasian….then how can australoids be genetically distant from blacks and whites genetically closer to blacks?? doesn’t sound logical…(both(australoid/european type) genetically caucasian, one closer to black, the other more distant?….0o…Also i have done my research….the aryan invasion is not yet proven…migrations did occur though. I HOPE YOU CAN PROVE ALL THESE STATEMENTS! these major migrations that happened.

  96. willywonka

    Were dravidians all over india before the aryan migration before-1500 years ago? dravidian culture, language…indus valley people?

  97. willywonka

    i believe that your research is superficial and inaccurate…You don’t even know what tamil is..You are generalizing…. A lot of tamils have the australoid phenotype. But a lot of tamils are fair skinned, good looking, thin nosed, skull are caucasian like. You seem like you don’t even know what you are talking about…your assumptions.

  98. willywonka

    As if its a quality to look like Europeans…some Europeans are ugly as fck…some of them have big ugly noses, ugly faces, wide round faces, pink, pale skinned….Indians earn some dignity.. be proud of your looks..australoid semitic or whatever…dnt feel superior becz u look like europeans….no human is superior…for instance look at the guy that made this research… hes one ugly mofo! peace out…wahahah😄

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  100. Amanda Besso

    like i said india, is truly diverse, with a billion people they dont all look the same, and india has more people in punjab and haryana then all of the population of pakistan times two, india is the most diverse country in the world where all the ancient clans of the world have melted get rich off its richs, the theory is the more north you go the more Caucasian, and the more south the more African, but people on the indian sub continent have traveled so much and have settled all over the places with its borders, so its not true, it all depends on caste systems
    http://www.apunkachoice.com/people/act342/aditi_govitrikar-stills3.html
    http://mathildasanthropologyblog.wordpress.com/2008/04/08/the-jarawa-onge-and-sentinelese-of-the-andaman-islands/
    North Indian family, compared with South Indian family

    theres no truth what real indians really look like, the truth is theres billion of them all with different backgrounds

  101. jayjay

    hey Bob
    Many different layers in India. And intermixing makes it difficult to rigidly classify. On top of that there’s migration. Many Aryans migrated south.
    I did my Nat Geog Haplo test. Guess what I got? Q1a3. Looks like I’m the wrong kind of Indian, Is that why the most impactful book I ever read was “Wounded Knee”? Or when I look at wide open spaces, I feel sad?
    The simple fact is ( and Einstein said make it simple) this- the more Northwest you go in India and the higher caste you go in India the chances of getting a more Aryan person is higher.

  102. jayjay

    Thats the Y DNA haplo test. Q belongs to the Native American group

  103. jayjay

    why do you think they call the land Subcontinent? Because of the diversity of flora and fauna I think

  104. jayjay

    The last I read, 75% of North Indians are leptorhhine ( fine nosed). 25% of Dravidians are- and amazingly the same figures for lactose tolerance. India produces the most milk in the world.

  105. Objectivity

    It’s interesting that India has an IQ of 82, because if you average the IQ’s of the 3 parent populations of India, you get an IQ of 82:

    Austrolids: IQ 62
    Non-white caucasoids: IQ 84
    Whites (Aryans): IQ 99

    Average: IQ 82

    Of course all IQ’s outside the first world are depressed by sub-optimum nutrition.

    • Historia Nerd

      Dang🙂 Now that I think about it would make sense. The AVERAGE Indian has an IQ of 82! The more wealthier ones or the elites have IQs in the 90s to 100s, since they have adequate nutrition and more importantly Caucasoid blood. Probably, if the Indian conditions were bettered an average IQ of 90-93 would be reasonable. I chose this, because if we look at their Fijian and Guyanese counterparts (lower caste Indians) we can see they have achieved tremendous success.

  106. Anirban Bagchi

    I am from a Bengali Brahmin family (We are Barendra Brahmins whose traditional homeland is supposed to be in East Bengal, now Bangladesh). We are mainly on the shorter side – men average around 5’7″ – with only a handful who are 6’+. With very few exceptions, however, all our kith and kin have wavy, straight and shiny light brown to chocolate brown hair, hazel to green eyes and very light skin. To give a proper idea, I have been stopped by US emigration on several occasions and questioned about where I come from and I’ve had a hard time convincing them that I am actually what my passport says I am – an Indian. To take an analogy used several times on this forum, I can walk down any street in Europe without being thought of as a non-European. Our family name is Bagchi. I always thought this was an indigenous Barendra Brahmin surname but was really surprised to know recently that in Ukraine they have quite a common family name called Bagach, when I met a business associate called Vassily Bagach in the US. In Italy there seems to be a similar surname – Biagcci (the cc is pronounced with a ‘ch’ sound as in ‘Gucci’). Even among Kashmiri Brahmins there seems to be a similar surname – Bagchu. The whole thing seems much, much more than a coincidence. Maybe there was an original mother tribe somewhere with the same type of name and we all branched out several thousand years ago and went our ways in the wide world! Does anyone have any information on this? Robert, do you?

    • Dont be naive.I’ve seen you on fb and you look nothing like a euro nor does any of your ‘kith and kin’.Your phenotype is predominantly bengali which is a mix of indo-aryans and australoids.I know you’re desperate to wire a connection with the europeans.But sorry,It aint possible :d

      • Anirban Bagchi

        Sorry, I do not have a FB account so you have definitely not seen me on FB. Just a suggestion: I may not be the only one in the whole world with my name. FB itself has more than 10 of my namesakes, just as, obviously, you are not the only Vishnu in the world.
        Let me point you to a picture of a well known Barenda Brahmin: Google Jhumpa Lahiri… she is closer to how my extended family looks. And of course, like all Bengali Brahmins of all categories, our recorded ancestry is from Kannauj in UP. that’s why we are the Kannaujiya or Kanyakubja Brahmins. Of course our ancestors had to come from somewhere before they assembled in Kannauj in the time of ChandraGupta Vikramaditya, and that’s what I want to find out.
        I completely agree with your assessment of our phenotype… any Indo-Aryan group in India in the present day cannot be without admixture with other types, considering we have coexisted for thousands of years side by side… you cannot keep your genetics segregated for that long. The australoids are all around us, so its easy to know where that part of my ancestry came from, but what about the other part that manifests itself in my eye, hair and skin colour? I’m curious to know where this particular part of me comes from. And then there is the overlapping family names occurring in many parts of the world to confound me further!

  107. Angelina. Mufasa

    You cannot prove where an individual originates from through pictures.

  108. Mridul

    Stumbled upon your site and thought it to be meaningful. Read a lot on this page. Not even a single productive or useful research work. Not atleast for human race. So sad. Anyways keep going. We all meant to do something usefull or useless. I will stumble upon something meaningful.

    • Bye Hindu, you are banned.

      • Thomas Aquinas

        The fact that you are using “Hindu” as an insult is troubling to me simply because this is 2013 and you are sounding a little bit like a bigot. And please, do not refer to the burka or to any other religious garb as a “stupid bag thing,” until you understand the meaning and importance behind it–as well as how complicated it is in what it symbolizes. Yes, the burka in some cases is forced upon women or can be a symbol of oppression. But to think that this is true in all cases is very closed-minded. It troubles me that someone who seems to have all this knowledge on the people in this area of the world can simultaneously show so little evidence of understanding or appreciation of these people and their faiths/cultures. Just because someone did not find your writing meaningful or helpful does not mean you need to respond with immature insults that say much more about you than they do about the people you are insulting.

      • Vikas

        much better than your dirty p**** rachele

  109. Black Scholar

    I don’t see anything Italian, Greek, or Australian. You just want to look white, but you aren’t. Stop trying to use facial imaging of a few people to support your white hegemony!

  110. Evangeline Prathibha Fernando

    I am 100 % tamil girl and our coastal community (basically fisherman caste which is a backward , non -brahmin caste) has been Catholic for the past 400 or 500 yrs since St. Francis Xavier converted our forefathers to christianity.. Most people are dark skinned but there is also quite a large number of pale to very pale skinned people. We kind of stand out when amidst other Tamil people.. Also I have been told that I have South east asian features although we have not had any such ancestry.. There are people who look like me in my community.(south east asian features I mean). I am sending u a link to my facebook profile.. Am i different or do I fall within the caucasoid, or australoid types that is common to tamils.. I am sending a link to my facebook page.
    https://www.facebook.com/evaniemaths

    • Dinesh

      You look pretty mongoloid to me definitely not caucasoid.. You might check your lineage I guess if you do some indepth research you might originate your roots to Burma

      • Evangeline Prathibha Fernando

        I don’t think I have any burmese roots. Besides only my father and I have mongoloid looks whereas the rest of us (even from our extended family) including my own sister look very much Tamil. Our lineage is quite uncomplicated and there has been no history of inter-racial marriages for more than six generations. Prior to that, I have no idea. A lot of people are intrigued by my looks and so am I. I have met people who have such Mongoloid looks from my community but they are very few and far between.

        • Balram

          If by any chance ,.you stay in the extreme North of Chennai then I am hundred percent sure there is a mongoloid influence.. I have one of my friends whose case is similar to yours., he looks pretty mongoloid and the rest of his family have typical Dravidian faces and he has no idea why he looks mongoloid. All his efforts to trace his NE asian roots have gone on to vain..Both his and your case are peculiar ones……. As far as I have researched there is minimal caucasian influence in place like Tamilnadu where most of people have australoid features and even majority the brahmins over there who are supposedly believed to be aryan race are originally australoids. The Brahmins from Tamilnadu look darker comparitively than brahmins of other states…

  111. leah gray

    First of all Caucasian and white are two different words, White is only European and Caucasian is majority of the world and has nothing to do with the way you look, in matter of fact the majority of “Caucasians” are mixed (99% mixed) but the British went around calling ordinary people Caucasian to get more people of their side, today the two word are used interchangeably and Caucasian is used with the word white, so the majority of the world that really in Caucasian would not be considered Caucasian culturally, there are also Mongoloids and Negr*ids, South Asia mountains are all Mongoloid blooded, only three races

    Second sun light exposure, malnourishment lightens hair, high altitudes lowers RBCs and gives a rosy glow, not genetic and often seen in kids, Henna (red and brown) is VERY common in Asia which dyes the hair red or brown, the pasthuns also like to dye their hair and wear contacts, A LOT of the hype was created by these people themselves that dont understand environmental factors, shows how they are more White suppressed then anything else, tracking down the rarest of faces seen on the internet for soooooooooooooooooo many years, same one or two pictures, people that talk about in the most and hype the most are the ones that have it the least and are the most obsessed because of society and labels

    The only people that are “white” in Asia are the mixed Indians that formed their own clans and the hippies in India, other than that, the rest of Asia is is really mixed of the three races but considered Caucasian, you lucky they are even considered Caucasian, over 400 yrs on Europe rule of India, and Europeans tried to control India since People learned how to move in the Neolithic Era, most came secretly to prevent competition and take control of money and location secretly, this is when caste system appeared, they formed the “upper” castes, even the Hindu religion/gods have history in Europe and European ancient religions have history in India , DNA test proved they are the only ones with European blood then any other of South Asia, your pictures dont make up the majority

    Aryan were dark featured the word was adapted by Europeans, the ancient Aryan were Persian

    The same amount of rare people like in these pictures can be found in any country, I have been to all over South Asia and no they look nothing like your pictures you want us to trust

    Going by region means nothing, its about the people, majoring in Anthropology i learned going by region means nothing ESPECIALLY speaking India, one of the most major countries of the world since ancient times, follow the people

    Natives Pakistanis were all Buddhist or Hindu that started moving to modern day India, and Muslims from central India (where South Asian Muslims existed from) moved to Pakistan, why that region? because they wanted that region to be Muslim so Muslim relations form with the neighboring Muslim countries, majority all before records and borders not taken on purpose, and started far before anyone can think especially because of their clan like nature of the country, this is also includes Afghan Muslims coming to India in the central India region, some to work with rulers and some that were against the rebel leaders, When Islam came to India by Arabs the only people they were able to convert were poor and the “lower” caste, while the “upper” were mingling with Europeans, the Muslims were promising false claims to the poor. Then the upper India state of Kahmir got Muslim rebels and the natives all fled to the neighboring states below Kashmir, tension during 1984 caused all the Sikh of North South Asia move to Punjab, India, on top of that all the mixed Indians live in south India, where the British came from (the water ports), only the royal Europeans are the ones people know about, majority of them actually came secretly, to prevent competition and violence, Since leaders and people moved around, people that were previously under rule of so and so were now free and many people established fake names…etc to be established with a so and so clan, Bangladesh natives were also Tibetans ..etc that also moved to India and Muslims of West India moved to Bangladesh, so location DONT matter, people do

    I am a anthropologist major with a PHD, trust me, European blood was only found in those mixed or established clans of modern day Indians, environmental impacts on looks…etc are not understood by these people, and i have been to every region you can think, and i know who really looks like what. Same amount of rare people can be found in every country and looks DONT determine if your white or Caucasian, not even blood because most “Caucasians” of the world are mixed with the three races, even South Europeans, a lot of the blogs on your page seem opinionated with sources that were also written by by one author…etc, even books and research has all the wrong information, only the things they wanted people to see is what is shown, for example, clans are mixed with each other and mentioned as the same people when they really are different people and stuff like mixing names, not knowing all the factors…etc

    • Abrar

      Your name is not Leah Gray now is it.

      Islamic achievement is visible to any one visiting Hind there was no India lady so not much of a PhD.

      The late Hasan Dhani was an expert in Indus Valley, a noted archaeologist and historian and he concluded the Indus Valley were in relation to the Ganges civilisation

      1. Different ethnicity
      2. Spoke different languages communicated through pictograms like the Nile civilisation, Mesopotamia, Sumeria.
      3. Buried their dead
      4. Ate Beef.

      Across the Indus and what is Afghanistan today Bhuddist sites / temples and Jains was also prevalent, Great Persian history then came Islam when Persia fell essentially.

      The Vedic influence West of the Indus was there but not significant nor a large percentage.

      There is Turkic, Afghan and Central Asian linkage which proves it was this regions influence that crossed into East of the Indus.

      • Abrar

        The first Islamic influence came through companions of the prophet pbuh and this was through Bengal, through Chittagong onto China and later through sea farers and merchants.

        Indus Valley was never part of the sub continent and was very much under the Persian sway and when Persia became Muslim so naturally did the Indus from the north down.

        The first Arab incursion into The South of the Indus was at Sindh ( again not India ) when Arab merchant ships were attacked in the Arab Persian gulf from here on there are 2 versions of history.

        People of the Indus ( Pakistan ) are far more taller, lighter in complexion because this region was influenced by its immediate north and West and similarly from modern day Indian Punjab, Rajasthan and Gujerat.

        The next successive waves of Islamic empires came from Turkic, Persian and Afghans.

        The Turkic And Mughals were Turkic people too also came through Bengal hence why many Bengolis look very Turkic and are very fair.

        It was these newly converted Muslims of Bharat many with Turkic blood, Afghan Blood, Persian blood that continue to spread from Delhi to the South of Asia.

        The Mughals the largest Islamic empire in the sub continent to have crossed the Indus at their height only had control of 1/3 of The sub continent.

        Then there is the episode of the Portugese, Dutch in SE Asia certainly in Sri Lanka and finally The British who also contributed to mixing of genes.

        Indigenous Bharatis are the Dravidians and there is mixtures towards;

        Sino
        Mongoloid / Turkic
        Indo Iranian
        European Caucasian

        Hence the diversity.

  112. guest

    none of the Caucasian Indians examples could really be Italian or Greeks, even though they’re Caucasians. Indians are Indians and Southern Europeans are Europeans

  113. boyer

    Pakistanies are a race of people born of Pigs.

    • boyer

      When that faggot Mohammad started fucking the Pakies (both men and women), Pakies started worshiping Big Mo.

      That is the peopling of Pakistan.

  114. Pingback: Are the People of India Caucasians? Yes | Beyond Highbrow - Robert Lindsay

  115. There were Cro-Magnons’ in the Mesolithic Gangetic basin, similar to Europeoid people from Paleolithic Europe (to their south was Balangoda man.)

  116. Thirdeye

    Not sure if this has been mentioned or not, but human settlement in India has been dated to >74 Ka by the Toba volcanic ash overlying stone tools. The Toba event made the subcontinent uninhabitable and isolated the Australasian survivors in southeast Asia from the rest of humanity. The remnants of the decimated human population were confronted with a very sudden planetary cooling as a result of the Toba event, and the adaptive pressure has been hypothesized as the driving factor in the development of a cold-adapted east Asian branch from the Australasian trunk, enhanced by the importance of founder effects among the surviving remnants. The Dravidian settlement was the re-occupation of the Bengal shore by Australasians. The tone language trait of east Asian/Australasian cultures (along with an isolated tone language group in the Indus Valley) is believed to reflect African-derived tone language among the original migrants.

    Looking closely at the faces of Australasian-derived Indians, the similarities between Australasian and east Asian facial shapes are striking: round, with broad cheekbones and low facial topography. It’s looking more and more like certain northeast Asian facial features (Ainu brows and heavy Korean jaws) are the result of proto-Mongoloid/Caucasian admixture in Siberia. And the closest languages to the Japonic languages are Turkic.

  117. Historia Nerd

    Robert do you think that consanguineous marriages in South, Central and West Asia has doomed those peoples’ IQs? I’ve seen, particularly in the Pakistani community, a lot of cousin marriages and also in some of the Indian communities as well. Generally, this increases birth defects and depresses IQ. So are these people doomed?

    (Serious question. I do not wish to offend)

  118. himalayanspirit

    I have lived through out India from the Northmost part of Kashmir to the Southern most of Karnataka. I have traveled to Goa, Central India, Uttarakhand, Bengal and even Andamans. One thing I want to tell you is that I disagree with anthropologists who say “Indians are Caucasians”. North Western Indians are about 70-80% Caucasians, but beyond that the percentage of Caucasoid genes reduces gradually towards East and South while the Australoid genes increases. I have seen pitch dark people starting from gangetic plains itself (4 out of 5 humans I encountered in Jabalpur were brown to black skinned). The “brown skinned Caucasians” that many outsiders encounter in India are in fact “light skinned Australoids”. And another lie often repeated is that the Indo-Aryans Caucasoid populated India after driving off the Australoids to the South. In fact, Indo-Aryans (who later became Brahmins) were just one of the Caucasians who came to India. Other Caucasians who were far more numerous are the Jats who came as Sakas/Scythians, the Hepthalites/Hunas/Kashmiris, Kushans/Yue-Chih who became the first Rajputs from Gurjara-Pratiharas etc. All the Central Asian peoples comprise of more than 40-50% population of North western India. The Brahmins are only a minority Caucasians, especially if you consider Bengal, where Australoids are more numerous because of absence of many Scythians, Hepthalites and Kushans.

    • Janardhan

      Indians basically are a mix of the original Australoid population with waves of Caucasoids and up to a much smaller extent Mongoloid migrations/ invasions. Since the invasions came from the North West, more deeper in South Asia the Caucasiods went their numbers reduced and the Australoid component remained dominant in the genepool. India was like Mexico/ brazil are today but for thousands of years. No wonder many Brazillians (mix of Europeans, Native Americans and blacks and upto a smaller extent East Asians ) look similar to Indians.

  119. Saif

    After reading your blog I wonder in which stock i belong.Can u tell me by looking into my pic
    https://m.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=10203206937600184&id=1410660935&set=a.1581795550721.222072.1410660935

    Thanks in advance

  120. Dave Mowers

    I will suggest something that no one will agree with but I will do it anyway because it is obvious to the student. Philologically and Etymologically the answer to the questions remains, as it has for so long, in the name of the country; India.

    From these two root words; “En” and “De” we get the same definition in every ancient language throughout history therefore they must be root words upon which these later languages built their meanings.

    The name means, “Lord God” so when used as a noun describing a place it must mean the “Land of Lord God” or “Place of lord God” which is synonymous or cognate too; “Garden of Eden.”

    Many authors have come to this conclusion historically but man seems unwilling to accept India as the birthplace of human kind which is sad since all ancient mythology points in this direction and even the Egypto-Sumerians called it; “Punt” which they claim meant, “Land of Gods.”

    In fact, if you allow for human imaginary construction to form “India” as a multicultural wordplay you can see “India” in “Eden” reversed. Or has it so happens Sumerian cuneiform often wrote words in different directions so it could possibly just be a mistranslation or misreading of the original.

    • India is birth place of human filth..

      • you seem to be either an Afrocentrist bigot, a white skinhead or some Indian guy fucked your mother. Why do you call India land of rapes? Have you ever heard of Genghis khan? Who’s raping who in Syria right now? Who raped who during the triangular slave trade when the British, French and Portuguese raped women like it was going out of style? You seem to be very uneducated and ignorant. Stop your silly ranting and raving.

        And yes, according to the previous commentator, India was known as the Land of Punt. The ancient Egyptians claimed that’s where they came from. The Indus Valley Civilization was the oldest, predating Sumeria and Egypt, but many, for the sake of their own ulterior motive and racial prejudice, fail to accept this school of thought.

        In today’s age, with the internet at your fingertips, I suggest you do some research to prove yourself wrong. According to common beliefs and taught in our history books, the Aryan Invasion Theory was pure bullshit. Surely there are many mixtures in our Indian population today, but it was not because of any Aryan Invasion Theory. It was simply because people of many different cultures traded with India long after the prescribed date of an AIT.

        Indians are the true Aryans, and they never left India. Europeans are Indian tribes that left India, or should I say the Indus Valley, after the Saraswati River dried up. They moved through Central Asia into Europe or through the Caucasus Mountains into Eastern Europe.

        India is the cradle of civilization. If you don’t believe me, get copies of the Vedas, Mahabharata, Upanishads, Purana, Ramayana, and if you have the wisdom to correlate the information in these books with the Bible, you would understand our human history began in the Indus valley. The religion of the Aryans is Hinduism, and the Hindu sacred texts are the Vedas and the books named above. No White men or Europeans wrote these books and brought them to India. Where are copies of it in europe? Where are the Hindu temples in Europe if the true Aryans were Europeans?

  121. DHL

    A True Brahmin to be.

  122. soumo

    robert lindsay if you do your research properly, without looking at skin colours, you will find out that Hindus have been in India for a long time dating back to even 60,000 BC. It is from here that there was migration outwards to rest of the world. I know you will probably laugh it off, but if you do your homework, try a bit harder, you will come to understand. Hinduism is a very old religion with mahabharat and ramayan taking place as far as 20,000 BC when we had vimanas while europeans used to speak in grunt grunt language.

    Check your history.

    Read up ajit vadakayil’s blog.

    When river saraswati dried up Hindus went from here to other places like europe. Thus before Jesus even europe was pagan, which means Hindu. Hinduism is the only pagan religion left in the world in great number. I can’t keep on blabbering over here. If I go on with history I will type about 20 pages right over here. So go check for yourself before you start comparing hindu fundamentals to muslims fundamentals. I’m sure there’s a difference, which maybe you can’t come to understand. Lots of fun is made of hindu gods everywhere from your tv show supernatural to Wendy doniger. We don’t threaten to kill anyone. When was the last time you drew a vulgur cartoon of prophet muhammed and not get death sentence.

  123. Daniel Mercer

    I think you should study the kukis of northeast India as well ….I promise you won’t be disappointed
    these people have many faces yet they speak the same language.Some of them have golden Brown hair and pale skin…others have beautiful brown eyes much lighter than the other NE people
    The kukis also claims to be originally from the middle east ….(strange right)
    so I ask of you to trace, trail,locate and find out the true things and I hope to read your findings.

    Yours faithfully,
    Daniel eimi

  124. Arya

    Dear Robert,

    Fascinating blog. I’ve been following your research into the different phenotypes in India, and I must say, I’m intrigued by the vast array of diverse phenotypes and genetic profiles found in the subcontinent. I was wondering if you had the time to classify my racial makeup, provided a side-profile picture and a front facing shot as well.

    Here is my side profile: http://i.imgur.com/AKmw0UM.jpg

    Front facing picture (I’m on the extreme right, with a black bow-tie): http://i.imgur.com/ZRxMq3g.jpg

    Another group picture (I’m the second from left, next to the Indian girl on the extreme right): http://i.imgur.com/RI26IwP.jpg

    I would really appreciate any inputs as far as my racial classification is concerned; not only because I would like to know about my racial origins, but because now that I am aware of race and genetic clustering, it would be really neat to understand which of the major races I actually belong to. It would also help me understand attraction to the opposite gender. I would also appreciate if you could tell me what you think my country of origin is and what ethnicities I could pass for/be mistaken for in the U.S.A and other countries around the world. Thanks again, and let me know if you have any other questions. Thanks!

    • Pic one – could be Lebanese, Arab, from the Caucasus, Balkans or possibly Southern European.

      Pic 2 is very interesting. You could be Jewish. It screams Jew. Or you could be any Southern European especially a Greek, Italian or Spaniard (Italian especially). There are also East Europeans who look like this, mostly from places like Romania and Hungary.

      Pic 3 you do see more of the Indian phenotype. Nevertheless it is hard to classify you and you could be Persian.

      • Arya

        Dear Robert,

        I greatly appreciate your analysis and your time. I think its very commendable that you are altruistically offering your expertise to people who request it. It’s quite interesting that you saw a plethora of different ethnic appearances depending on the picture in question. I myself have been victim to this guessing game quite a bit over the years, with some people penning me down as MENA, and others assuming I was Southern European. It can be quite frustrating at times, having an ambiguous ethnic appearance — having a disconnect between internal and external perception can really cause psychological trauma and identity disorder. However, on the brighter side, it does show that we are all more related than our arbitrary geographical boundaries would lead us to believe.

        I noticed you classify people as “Caucasian” or “White” or “Mongoloid” or “Negroid”, etc. depending on their phenotype/predominant appearance, and I was wondering which of the major races you would put me into based on my pictures above. If it helps to further reach a definitive conclusion, I am appending three additional pictures of myself. I guess what I’m asking is — do you see anything in my facial structure/facial features/bone structure/general appearance that screams “Non-Caucasian/Non-White” or “Asian” or “MENA” or “South Asian” or “Mongoloid Admix” etc. ? Or would you say that I am a “pure” version of one of the major races?

        Here are three additional pictures:

        Picture 1 (I’m in the red sweatshirt on the top left, back row, to the left of the guy in the black and white striped shirt, just right of the girl with the long hair): http://i.imgur.com/KjbDXS8.jpg

        Picture 2 (I’m on the left with the cowboy hat): http://i.imgur.com/kmL4M0o.jpg

        Picture 3 (I’m on the far right in the navy, white and red t-shirt): http://i.imgur.com/2BbMlVx.jpg

        Based on the all the aforementioned pictures, (both in this post and the previous one) on based on this side profile (which is the most accurate representation of me, weight-wise): http://i.imgur.com/AKmw0UM.jpg

        What would you say my overall ethnic appearance appears to be, especially when people see me in person? What race would they perceive me to be? Would you consider it to be an “interracial” relationship if I dated someone who belonged to the major Caucasian race, or to one of its subsets? For instance, if I was in a relationship with a MENA or a European would that be perceived as “interracial” in the United States or elsewhere? What would people classify me as when they see me?

        Thanks a million for your continued analysis and insight into this issue. I greatly appreciate it. As always, let me know if you need any additional information from my side. Thanks!

        • Pics 1 and 2, you are just some White guy. 3 pretty much the same, for some reason, you look like a Russian. Pic 4 is much harder to characterize but for sure you could be a MENA type, a Turk or from the Balkans.

          No you are just a Caucasoid. It most pics you look Europid. It would not be an interracial relationship if you were involved with any Caucasian person of any type.

  125. Arya

    Dear Robert,

    Thanks again for your valuable insights. Your assessment goes along well with what people have told me earlier. As a Caucasian from India, I quite agree with your charitable views on Indian culture and Hinduism and your acrimonious tendencies towards Hindutvadis and other religious radicals. It seems like hypocrisy of the finest order for a Hindu or Indian of any race (Mongoloid, Dravidian, or Caucasoid, or Caucasoid-admixed) to pine for an American job, American citizenship, and an American standard of living, and then to turn around and act all high and mighty by denigrating Western culture, history, and people.

    This is the exact opposite of what America is supposed to be — a melting pot of all cultures, where immigrants strive to assimilate and/or integrate, not separate and hang out in artificially constructed cliques that have no context in the cultural and social landscape of the United States. While its O.K to be proud of your heritage and culture, its another thing entirely to believe that your are superior to others because of it. Or to ignore lessons from and immersion in other cultures because of a closed mindset, while expecting other cultures to follow your own — because it is supposedly the only “true” way.

    In fact, I don’t see how its any different from racism — quite ironic really, considering how many Indians, especially Dravidians, are the first to pull the skin color or race card when faced with what they perceive to be discrimination. (See: Australian incidents of “racism” meted out to Sri Lankans and Dravidians). Therefore, I think it is in the best interests of all Indian immigrants, and all immigrants in general to behave as everyone in America has behaved and will continue to behave; like an American. As the old saying goes, “When in Rome, do as the Romans do.” Besides, Indians as a collective have nothing to be insecure about — they have the oldest existing civilization on Earth, are responsible for some of the most paradigm-shifting inventions and discoveries in math, science and other academic fields, along with the oldest religion, and a history of being the richest, most coveted country on Earth (up until the 18th-19th centuries) as is evidenced by a super-long history of invasions from Arab and European marauders and imperialists. Not to mention the fact that they are some of the most ancient Caucasians in the case of South Indians, and no different from present-day Caucasians in the case of High-caste North and South Indians.

    Of course, not all Indians behave this way — as you may well know yourself, and it also has to do with the generation of Indian immigrants you are looking at — but in general, Indians are becoming more progressive as time goes on, and in my family at least, the age-old “No BMWs” adage has long since ceased to exist. In fact, we have lovingly and willingly welcomed many fellow Americans (read: Spaniards and Koreans, etc.) into our family and will continue to do so. We only seek to marry a fellow American that we love, regardless of their ethnic background. We look at the individual, not the color or the race. And this is really how all normal Americans behave, with the exception of a few nutcases who are ignorant enough to limit their dating pool by using something as arbitrary and irrelevant as race. Attraction knows no color or race — there is either chemistry present between two individuals, or there isn’t. No sane person would choose to marry someone solely on the basis of his/her race — the person’s personality and overall appearance always comes first — race doesn’t even factor in to the picture unless the person wants their children to look more like them. Even then, there is no guarantee as to what your children will look like.

    The only reason I was curious about my background is because I am frequently accosted by random people (all Caucasoid) of various backgrounds (Read: MENAs and Euros) who are hell-bent on claiming me as one of their own. When I withdraw in wry disinterest, I am usually greeted with a scornful expression, one that goes along the lines of “Oh look, another self-hating [insert ethnic group here]” While this might sound amusing in theory, in practice it is not only irritating, but also flabbergasting and confidence-shattering. After a decade of looking ambiguous and knowing nothing more about my origins other than the fact that my grandparents hail from NW India, from the former region of Rajputana, and belong to the clan of Suryavanshi Rajputs, I decided to turn to science to gain a concrete idea of what my biological “racial identity” really is. Not to mention the fact that I find myself attracted to Caucasian women of all backgrounds, something that used to puzzle me initially, because I was unsure of my own ethnic identity. Of course, I have been attracted to East Asian women as well, but I found more rapport with them initially due to checking the same box on college admissions forms and other such racial categorization boxes.

    Now that I am positive that Indians are genetically and forensically Caucasoid, particularly NW High Caste Indians like myself, who have maintained endogamy through archaic practices like arranged marriage in the Vedic style, I am much less conflicted about both my racial identity and my preferences in women. It goes without saying that in the past only Caucasoid women have evinced interest in me, from all backgrounds, but particularly European and MENA and South Asian women. There have been random East women too, sure, but they have been overwhelmingly Caucasian, and that is no surprise. However, before acting on these invitations of female interest, I had to be positive that I wasn’t acting on an impulse that had been manufactured by “white-washing” due to the Western media and its overpowering influence (read: globalization). In addition, I had to be sure that I wasn’t discounting women of particular ethnicities because of prejudices and ignorance, as opposed to ingrained preferences that form in part due to ethnic/racial backgrounds. That said, I am open to any ethnicity in general, its just that I find a certain pattern in what I find attractive in a female.

    Now that I am free from any sort of mental roadblock, I think I have you to thank in part for freeing me from this self-imposed mental prison, akin to an incel-like state. As a last question, I was just curious about one more thing: if they sequenced high-caste NW Indians and checked for clustering (Excluding other Indians and ethnic groups) do you believe that the results would decry the commonly held assumption that Indians are divergent Caucasoids? I firmly believe that if such a study was conducted, high-caste NW Indians would cluster as close to MENAs and Euros as Italians or EE or any other Southern Euros and certain MENA groups. Do you have any insight on this? And last but not least, 23andme had a genetic profile on their site of a “typical Indian man” that showed 90% European and 10% Asian ancestry — would this be accurate? What is this Asian element? Central Asian/Caucasoid or Mongoloid? And what about groups that have no Asian ancestry like our clan? Would they be 100% Caucasian (a mix of different Caucasian groups?)

    I know that certain European groups are also between 5-30% Non-Caucasian, in some cases Negroid, in some cases Mongoloid, and some groups like the Basques and the Sami people and the Sardinians and the Berbers are even more divergent than Indians in general, so Indians could actually be more Caucasoid/White than many European groups, correct?

    Thanks a bunch, and as a token of appreciation, I will be donating to your website. Please keep up the good work.

    Sincerely,
    Arya

    • Thank you very much my Caucasian brother. We are indeed part of a great race and I welcome you to the party for the European peoples inside and outside of Europe. WPWW!

      And thank you very much for the gift! Maybe I will be able to pay my bills this month. No wait, I won’t, but this at least put me back at budget. I am glad I was able to help you solve your identity problem. Many Indians seem to have these identity problems.

    • Not to mention the fact that they are some of the most ancient Caucasians in the case of South Indians, and no different from present-day Caucasians in the case of High-caste North and South Indians.

      Indians in general score Caucasoid on most tests, but they definitely seem to be some of the most divergent Caucasoids of all. In general they are Caucasoids heading off towards the Asian spectrum. However, Berbers are the most divergent Caucasoids of all on some tests, much further away than even the Indians.

      I firmly believe that if such a study was conducted, high-caste NW Indians would cluster as close to MENAs and Euros as Italians or EE or any other Southern Euros and certain MENA groups.

      Indeed Indians are not far genetically from Europeans on a number of genetic charts. It goes like this – Europeans – Greeks – Iranians – Indians. The Greeks are the links between the Euros and the Iranians. The Iranians are the links between the Greeks and the Indians. On a number of genetic charts, even the distance from Indians to Europeans is not very far. The distances in Asia between even small groups are much higher than the distance between Euros and Indians. High caste Indians do not score any different on basic charts than other Indians and they are not closer to Euros. But on some charts, Iranians are very close to Euros. I have seen charts where they line right up with Danes and Norwegians. So if you are an Indian with some Persian genetics, you could be closer to Euros.

      And last but not least, 23andme had a genetic profile on their site of a “typical Indian man” that showed 90% European and 10% Asian ancestry — would this be accurate? What is this Asian element? Central Asian/Caucasoid or Mongoloid? And what about groups that have no Asian ancestry like our clan? Would they be 100% Caucasian (a mix of different Caucasian groups?)

      I am not really sure but the NW Indians do have an Asiatic component. Punjabis are 14% Asiatic. Not sure what this is but it may be a Tibetan like line.

      Now that I am positive that Indians are genetically and forensically Caucasoid, particularly NW High Caste Indians like myself, who have maintained endogamy through archaic practices like arranged marriage in the Vedic style…

      Yes on skulls and gene charts, your people are absolutely Caucasoid.

      Not to mention the fact that they are some of the most ancient Caucasians in the case of South Indians, and no different from present-day Caucasians in the case of High-caste North and South Indians.

      The more you look at charts and study the history of the Caucasian race, it does look like India and North Africa were two of the major zones where this race developed. There was a lot of movement back and forth between these zones and an intermediate one in the Caucasus for up to 30,000 years. And looking at some Berbers and Indians, you really do get the impression that perhaps we are looking at an ancient Caucasoid here. There is an old anthropological argument that the Dravidians came from the MENA region, possibly the Levant, 15-18,000 YBP. I am not sure if it is true but it is interesting. The languages may derive from that region.

  126. Arya

    Dear Robert,

    Just to follow-up on me earlier post, I just wanted to state that I donated to your paypal account (linked from your donation page). Please let me know that you received it. Thanks again for all the work that you do.

    Image confirming it was me: http://i.imgur.com/4KI0c41.jpg

    I also added special instructions to the donation to clarify that it was me.

    Sincerely,

    Arya

  127. Arya

    Dear Robert,

    I discussed your analysis with a few of my family and friends, and I just wanted to stop by for a few more questions in order to settle a few contentious debates. I greatly appreciate your time.

    Question 1: I noticed that some people claim that all Indians are mixed with “Australoids” — does this apply to Upper-caste NW Indians that are Caucasoid like myself? I do not detect an Australoid element in me or any of my extended family members for that matter, so I was curious about this.

    I mean different studies have different conclusions, and I have even seen studies that place North Indian upper caste groups as the closest to Europeans and the British, and plus they only surveyed a minority of caste groups in India, many of whom are admixed and false claimants of higher caste status, and thus arrived at an erroneous conclusion. If you group together all different Indian caste groups and omit authentic high-caste Caucasoids like us, you are bound to get a dilution of genetic information and erroneous clustering, right?

    Just the other day, my mother and sister were mistaken for Italian, and my dad is frequently mistaken for the same and/or Latin American. My uncles and aunts are the same way. By the way, this is a picture of my aunt, would you say she looks completely Caucasoid:

    Where could she pass?

    Here is my maternal uncle, who was mistaken for white when he came to the U.S:

    Question 2: Also, are Australoids Caucasoid? As in, if some Indians are mixed with this Australoid element, does that make them less Caucasoid, or are these Australoids Caucasians as well, but simply a more ancient form of Caucasoids?

    Question 3: Are Dravidians the same race as Caucasoids? Just a more ancient stock? Or Are Dravidians Australoid?

    Question 4: I know you have mentioned in the past that NW High Caste Indians who are Caucasoid can be unmixed Caucasians or 100% Caucasian or at least 90% Caucasian, so I was wondering if I fall under that possibility — based on my pictures, you placed me anywhere between the Balkans (also Southern Europe, Eastern Europe) the Levant, Middle East, North Africa and of course, North Indian and Pakistan/Afghanistan.

    Since I look like a pure Iranian Caucasoid or even a pure Eastern European Caucasoid or a Levantine, wouldn’t it make sense that my genetic clustering would also mirror these groups? Maybe I am a pure Caucasoid descended from these groups?

    Question 5: I have an Italian friend who I think looks decidedly Indic, albeit Caucasian, actually Gujarati. I wanted your opinion on it; would you say he looks like an Indid Caucasoid? Does he look more Indic than I do?And if so, is he completely Caucasoid? His parents look like Northern Italians and are from Milan. Here is his picture:

    ^If this guy looks Indic, and he does look more Indic than I do, then doesn’t this prove that even people who look supposedly “admixed” are 100% Caucasoid? Also, doesn’t it prove that these so-called admixed Indians are just as Caucasoid as any other Caucasoid?

    Question 6: This is the famous actor Cary Grant:

    He looks no different to me than the famous Indian actor Dara Singh:

    A younger comparison:

    Cary Grant:

    Dara Singh:

    To me, they both look equally Caucasoid and by extension, equally White according to U.S racial classifications. What do you think?

    Question 7: What are European groups that are more genetically divergent, or that cluster further away from other Europeans than Indians — like Sardinians, Lapps, Berbers, Sami, Finns, Russians, EE’s, etc? I saw a chart that showed that Eastern Europeans were clustering closer to Indian in the NW than to Western Europeans. I’ve also seen charts that place Greeks closer to ME’s and South Asians than Europeans.

    Are Russians, Eastern Europeans, and certain Southern Europeans along with people in the Balkans more genetically divergent, i.e cluster further away from other Europeans than Indians? I’d really appreciate a detailed answer on this one.

    That’s all I have. I’d appreciate your views and analyses as always. Thanks again,

    Sincerely,

    Arya

    • Hello there, your aunt simply looks like a White woman. Your uncle looks more like an Arab. Your Indian friend does indeed look Indian, and no doubt he is Caucasoid. It is very hard to tell with any Indian person what the percentages of Caucasoid, Mongoloid and Australoid are. There really is no point even talking about it because it is sort of an unknown. I have no idea what your genetic readout might look like. It is so hard to answer. The younger Singh looks very Europoid. The older one, not so much. However, the young man with him could possibly be Jewish, for example. Australoids are not Caucasoid, and a Caucasoid mixed with significant Australoid would not be a pure Caucasoid, correct. Australoids are not at all ancient Caucasoids. Instead they are better seen as ancient Asians. On some charts, the Berbers definitely cluster further away from the rest of Caucasians. However, other than that, the Indians are certainly the most divergent of Caucasoid groups, quite a bit further away than any of the others. They are heading way off towards NE Asians. Greeks are the link between Europeans and Arabs.

  128. This research takes a lot of time, and I do not get paid anything for it. If you think this website is valuable to you, please consider a contribution to support more of this valuable research.

    i am confdent i have all the answers to your questions and have worked it out in detail. i have posted it all here before . for more information
    contact me on sujayrao2012@gmail.com

  129. Satish

    Dear Mr. Robert,

    Well, I could see a lot of information on how different Indians like South Indians and North Indians differ in terms of facial features and genes. Thank you for your replies
    is there any explanation why Most of the intelligent and smart people from India come from South India ?

    Eg: Noble prize winning scientists (CV Raman, Chandra sekharan etc from Tamil Nadu)
    Talented Mathematicians ( CV Ramanujan Tamil Nadu)
    Missile Scientist ( APJ Abdula Kalam, Tamil nadu)
    Oscar winning Music director ( A.R.Rehman/AKA Dileep, Tamilnadu)
    Mokshagundam Vishweshwarayya ( Engineer behind many Civil projects during British raj, Was from Telugu, Karnataka now, on his Birth day, India Celebrate Engineers Day every year)
    Satya nadella ( Current CEO of Microsoft, NY, Andhra Pradesh)
    Like this I can make a lengthy list. On North Indians, I hardly heard about smart people except politicians such as Nehrus or Advani etc
    I believe, genes not only control the facial features, but also, the talent

    Does you research address this aspect as well ?

    • It is a very question my friend and thank you very much for this. I don’t have the faintest idea what is going on here, unless it is just a backwards culture (North India) vs. a more advanced one (South India).

      • satish

        Hi

        I did little more research, as being a South Indian, I don’t want to show any bias to south Indians. I did check wikepedia for List of Indian Scientists. Though it shows people from 476 CE to till date, I filtered people only after 1800s.
        My first point, these days there are more scientists but they are not as famous as our olden Days “Raman and Ramanujan”
        If you really see, Top Class is mainly from South India but hey are very few , less than 10 %
        When we see all together, following are the statistics
        Total scientists : 133 members
        South Indians : 60 (45.1%)
        North Indians: 28 (21.1%)
        West Indians : 23 ( 17.3%)
        East Indians: 22 (16.5%)
        India Population Percentage by Region
        South Indians : 21.5%
        North Indians: 46.4%
        West Indians : 12.6 %
        East Indians: 19.3%

        This statistics shows South Indian intellectual levels are high compared to other regions.
        IQ is really not popular in India. Being a 32 year Old Engineer, I never checked my IQ. I didnt see its being checked in younger generation aswell. It is difficult to comment on IQ as it is not followed in India.

        As you said it could be a difference in advanced and backward culture

      • This is an old topic,but i found it very interesting. as i always thought,i mightbe a pure archaic caucasoid from kashmir.
        I did DNA test & found virtually zero african/melanesians/vedoid/australoid) mixture.I gangup with my indo-iranic tribes (kalash & pakhhtun)
        You can see my face & go to my FB timeline.

        • Yes some of the Kashmiris are very, very White. That is interesting that you are related to the Kalash. They are White as Hell, incredibly White for that part of the world. Pakhtuns are also very White. Welcome to the White party, my friend! Enjoy your stay!

          PS. If you like the site, please consider a donation to the site. Donations are the only thing that keep the site going.

          https://robertlindsay.wordpress.com/contribute/

      • my FB https://www.facebook.com/jayanta.lal.182

        no arab/no african/no australoid haplogroups in me…..i see why we are called arya

        Northindia is in mess its a whole different topic,,,why aryan looking caucsian syrians are in mess??why greeks are bankrupt? why afganis are in mess??why anglo-saxonic UK is now lost???everyone canbe poor/down..
        so you can see how jealous these half-australoid southindians are….heck i wont buy your southindian brides with dowry….yeah you can fuk yourself.you are genetic poisons for purebred indoiranics like me….losers

  130. SHI

    North-East Indians in India suffer a lot of discrimination on a day-to-day basis because of the “chinkie” looks. This year alone, there have been 200 racist attacks against them mostly in Northern India and Bangalore. North-Eastern girls because of their exotic Asian looks are often harassed by sex-crazed Indian men. Many of them work in restaurants, nail salons and massage parlors just like in Thailand. However unlike Thai women, North-Easterners have class and full of self-respect. You won’t find even a single one of them working as prostitutes.

    North-Easterner women come from a gender-equal society and really have nothing in common with other Indians.

    Here’s a Facebook community dedicated to prevent discrimination against people from North East India https://www.facebook.com/SDPFTNEI/

    Here’s are some pictures of your average regular Joe’s from North-East India

    Female body-builder from Manipur called Thingbajam Sarita

    Mandira Chhetri, an artiste from Sikkim (she’s very pretty🙂

    Ramina Haorokcham, a female entreprenur from Manipur and owner of Gojilove.com an adult online shop

    Thai actress Pachrapa Chaichua. She’s half-Mizo from Mizoram state. Interesting mix – Thai-North-Eastern Indian

    Zuchobeni Tungoe, from Kohima, Nagaland

    Proneeta Swargiary, dancer from Assam

  131. Eileen

    I came across this website and thought to myself “Great! I found something great to read on during the Holidays” However, didn’t think I’d open up and ask anything since finding out Garo Naga Meitei in my autosomal makes things a bit tricky.. since my vedic part is Brahmin. I don’t look anything Asian. My kids all appear the same. Yet, I’ve felt that Tibetan connection for a long time. And, according to your calculations Naga and Garo are Tibetan (and in language). So, thanks for that comment.

  132. Hina Khan

    Great article!! I’m a North Indian. My facial features are not like Indians. I’m light to fair skinned girl. I have researched on myself on the basis of rest of my features. Some people suggest that I might be from Iran or Italy or other region. I’m still confused how would I determine myself into which race? Note: My mother is a fair skinned woman while my father is like an average North indian face.

  133. David

    Race is a complex subject. Most people in the world are mixed to some extent or other. By the way, the concept of “European” doesn’t carry much weight with me. Northern/Western Europeans look very different to Southern Europeans, to the point they are different race one could argue. Southern Europeans not only darker but have different facial features.

    Even within Northern/Western Europe there are differences. The Scandinavians can generally be told apart from from other Northern Europeans. Scandinavians, Germans and the Dutch may also have bit of Mongoloid influence, through Sami. Some Mongoloid influence from the Mongols not just reached Eastern Europe, but as far as Germany.

    I have travelled extensively throughout Europe and the people can look different. For example, I have noticed some Western Scandinavians and Germans can have quite thick lips, almost a bit rubbery. I always wondered if this was Sami influence. The British generally have very thin lips, quite often almost “non-existent”, especially the upper lip.

    • pepperroncini

      Al Molinaro, the guy who played the Diner owner in Happy Days passed away recently. He can pass for MiddleEastern in many pics, especially ones where he is swarthy. Yet in atleast 1 pic he looks clearly European

      If I didn’t know who he was and saw him in the street in a Euro capital or major American capital, I would’ve thought he was MidEastern. I would not mistake him for a Northern European.

      Northern and Southern Euros are mostly the same people but there are distinct phenotype differences and while MidEastern people can sometimes pass for Southern Euros and vice versa, the same is rarely true for Northern Euros.

      Yet MidEast and European genetic clusters are different. Southern Euros have significant stone age European hunter gatherer ancestry but less than Northern Euros, while MidEastern groups don’t.

  134. Where did you get the 17000 years ago info from?

    But a more important question is did caucasoid features originate in europe or west asia?. coon seems to think so. If it did in europe, it makes europeans the africans among caucasians – the primitive and geographically stagnant ones, while the arabs persians and south asians would be the few(from the initial bunch in europe) who migrated found newer land, territory and enjoyed a higher GDP for the most part of history.

    Even If caucasoid origin seems to be near Levant or israel, Europeans are still lesser successful than south asians in terms of numbers and expansion and historical access to resources. Besides they have a hell of a lot more invasions into europe and certainly diminishes the success of the first wave to enter europe. So whether they are predominantly cro-magnons or neolithic greeks or indo-european invaders, they are made up of parts that r not so successful as the other parts.

    So whats you poison Europe or west asia?

  135. Pingback: Indians are Caucasians: Why do some Europeans lose their shit over this? - Wisdophile

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