Black Genes in Southern Europeans

Repost from the old blog. My post suggesting that Southern Europeans have some Black blood in them really pissed some people, apparently Southern Europeans, off. It seems like there is nothing that pisses these Italians and Spaniards off more than the suggestion that they have a few Black ancestors somewhere.

My post here, A Little Black In All Of Us, has aroused a tremendous amount of controversy. Not to beat this dead horse with a stick, but there are Southern Europeans and their supporters who strongly object to the notion that they have more than a smidgen of Black blood in them. In fact, there are websites that are set up in part to specifically negate that premise. Some of their supporters are simply racists.

This is definitely a sore point with Southern Europeans. As an Italian friend of mine said, “The Southern Italians really hate to be called negri. If you call them negri, they pull out the knife.” A little sensitive?

In my post, I suggested that some Southern Europeans, notably Sicilians, Greeks, Spaniards and Portuguese, had more than a negligible amount of Black in them, around 5%. This produced a hailstorm of protest from the aforementioned folks, and resulted in some bannings from the comments.

I admit I’m not an expert on the subject. The Black genes in these Southern Europeans seem to have come from Ethiopia. This much is clear. The relevant haplogroups are M1, M78, E3b, E3b1, L1, L3, E-M35 and some others. If you follow the links to the relevant scientific journals, they will describe these lines as sub-Saharan.

The deniers say that they are not really sub-Saharan, they are Ethiopian, or Afro-Asiatic, or Eurasiatic, or whatever. In general, they say that these are Caucasian lines inside the Ethiopians.

I’m not sure any of that makes sense. Better than sub-Saharan lines, I would describe these lines as “Saharan”. They arose in the Sahara and possibly in Arabia very long ago. They are still quite common in Somalia, Ethiopia and Sudan (north and south). Those folks look White to you? Of course not.

Click to enlarge. The original, with much better resolution, is here. These are Oromos, an Ethiopian people that is fighting for an independent state in Ethiopia. A commenter, Stopped Clock, left some interesting comments. He said first of all to call these ancient lines “Saharan” is correct if referring to the much darker-skinned people who lived in the Sahara long ago when these lines arose, but not to the Arabid types who reside in much of the region today (more recent arrivals).

He also suggested a resolution to this problem. To say that these Ethiopians are 40% White and 60% Black as so many do seems simplistic and erroneous. The “White” lines go back to Arabia 45,000 years ago. People just call that line Caucasoid because it comes out of the Middle East. But I have a strong hunch that the people who lived in Arabia 45,000 years may have looked a lot more like Black people than like Whites. If anything, I think they may have looked like these interesting folks.

He also said that the latest thinking is that these people are not some mulatto Black-White mix; instead, they are an ancient African race that evolved separately from the others and ended up looking quite different.

In addition, recent data shows that these are the most ancient humans of all, older than the Khoisan. And other data suggests that the people who came out of Africa may have looked something like this. Whether these people are the original H. Sapiens is another matter. From 90,000-135,000 years ago, there were a series of droughts in Africa. This may have led to a split in humanity into two main lines – one in East Africa and another in South Africa. Presently, we do not yet know which line gave birth to modern H. Sapiens.

I’m not much of a judge on males, but these people seem quite attractive. And some of those women in the center are absolutely beautiful. They have an appearance that is both exotic and incredibly striking.

The Arabids are a Caucasoid racial type, an evolved Mediterranean type that is adapted to desert climates. They’re often dark skinned.

It’s quite clear to me that Arabids are part of the White Race. I would divide the White Race (not synonymous with the Caucasian Race) into three main types: West Nordids, East Nordids and Mediterraneans. The Whiter Arabids and Berberids are obviously Mediterraneans. The notion that White Arabs are non-Whites is seriously insane. Arabids are poorly understood and no one really knows when they arose and what their line of development looks like.

They are probably an old race. There is some evidence that Europeans 10,000 years ago looked more like Arabids than like modern Europeans. And now it is starting to look like neither modern nor ancient Egyptians were really classical Arabids. No one really knows how to classify them, but the best word is probably “Egyptian”. They are somewhat sui generis.

And Egyptians today are pretty much the same as Egyptians of Ancient Egypt, that is, they are not Black. It’s sad that Afrocentrists keep hammering away at this “Egypt was Black” thing. Let it rest.

I would also agree, much to the Afrocentists’ dismay, that Egyptians are basically a Caucasian people. They do have about 9% Black genes though.

Unless you know what you are doing, you probably don’t want to dive into this debate. This stuff gets real complicated real quick, and the debaters know their stuff.

It’s funny how some folks react to the possibility of the tiniest bit of Black blood like Superman to Kryptonite.

This woman here, Mathilda’s Anthropology Blog, who runs an otherwise excellent blog, is on a jihad to say that there is little Black blood in Southern Europeans. I don’t know what her motivation is. She also opposes “out of Africa” and “single migration to the Americas”.

White nationalists really hate the Out of Africa argument with a passion. “Grandpa was a nigger” is taking things just a bit too far. You gotta draw the line in the sand somewhere.

This post provides some good background on where the debate is at right now. Unfortunately, the whole mess has been contaminated by Afrocentrists, who are some of the most idiotic ethnic nationalists around.

As for me, I’m a bit tired of the whole “Black blood in Italians” debate and I’d just as soon let it rest.

54 Comments

Filed under Anthropology, Arabs, East Africa, Egypt, Egyptians, Ethiopia, Ethiopians, Genetics, North Africa, Race/Ethnicity, Racism, Regional, Reposts From The Old Site, White Racism, Whites

54 responses to “Black Genes in Southern Europeans

  1. Billy Gambela

    Very intertesting Blog..

    My name is Billy Gamb’ela
    I am a Nubian-Egyptian American. My family has been classified in the past as Mulattoes, then lost that class and was called Negroes after the Racial integrity Act of 1926 in Virginia.

    I recently took a mtdna and Y-chromosome test to reveal what ethnicity would fit the bill as Mulatto.

    The word mulatto usually refers to anyone of mixed ancestry.

    My mothers results L2a1 is exclusive to Ethiopians
    her mtdna sequence shows that it is 4 parts African and 3 parts Asiatic and 1 part Eurasian..

    My fathers results yield the indigenous haplogroup M2/E3a.
    Which is found in West-Asia’s Middle East as well as notable frequencies in North Africa and Southern Europe…

    See Blog for more information:

    http://billygambelaafroasiaticanthropology.wordpress.com/

    Thanks again..

    • coward

      Dude wait, how are her mitochondria 1 part this,5 parts that…. Mitochondrial DNA does not recombine with other mitochondria, and you only receive it matrilineally, so there is no way your mtDNA is part anything. It would be impossible to classify people into mtDNA haplogroups if people like your mother existed.

  2. Dibaba

    It is hard to draw a line between races. In Horn, it is easy to find someone with dark skin and ‘ Nordic phenotype’.

    Both skin and phenotype can not be reliable yardstick to measure the race type.

    To settle the case, think of a human as evolving being who just got divorce from its cousins chimps
    few millions years back.

    • coward

      Actually, to settle the case, all you have to do is get a DNA test. That’s it. There is a lot of convergent evolution, and an orphan Ainu American might think he is part of White America until a DNA test brings him down to earth.

  3. ብልልይ ። ግምብለ (Billy Gambela)

    Greetings ግረእቲንግስ to all….

    The Phylogeny of African-Asiatic mtDna has done it again!!

    Recent studies carried out on the

    European Slavic Individuals in Addition to

    Matrilineal mtDna studies on

    Ashkenazi Hebrews both affirm and ultimately

    Conclude, that the Contemporary use of RACE is a complete illusory!

    Eight African genomes belonging to haplogroups L1b, L2a, L3b, L3d and

    M1 gathered from Russians, Czechs, Slovaks and Poles.

    Results of phylogeographic analysis suggest that at least part of the

    African mtDNA lineages found in Slavs (such as L1b, L3b1, L3d)

    Appears to be of West African Origin, testifying to an opportunity of their

    Occurrence as a result of migrations to Eastern Europe through Iberia.

    In the same vein, the Saharan Neolithic gene flow can be estimated as 13%,

    Taking the actual frequencies for the Sub-Saharan African haplogroups (51%) in

    Southern Northwest African samples

    (Tuareg, Saharans, and Mauritanians) as the

    Frequency of the African Neolithic, and that of the
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neolithic

    Iberian Peninsula (6.8%) as the
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iberian_Peninsula

    Result of the putative Neolithic maternal gene flow.

    This value could rise to 23% when only

    south Portugal is taken into account.

    However, if we admit a recent 10% of slave trade input into this region, as

    Historically documented (Godinho, 1983), 13% would be

    left for the putative Saharan Neolithic gene flow.

    http://www.the-savoisien.com/livres2/Racial%20Mixing%20in%20Iberia%20(Portugal).doc

    In addition, According to the leading science of

    Human Origins, known as the Out of Africa Theory,
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Out_of_Africa

    Anatomically modern humans first emerged in

    Africa 150,000-200,000 years ago.

    All Non-Africans

    are descended from at least one group of humans who migrated

    Out of Africa into Western Asia

    50,000-70,000 years ago.

    The first Modern Humans in

    Europe, the Cro-Magnon arrived from Western Asia-

    Middle East (Lebanon) by 45,000 years ago and in

    Eastern Europe at the least by 40,000 years ago.

    Modern Humans of Spain entered the

    Iberian Peninsula more than 35,000 years ago.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Spain

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_L1_(mtDNA)
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_L2_(mtDNA)
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_L3_(mtDNA)

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/African_admixture_in_Europe

    http://billygambelaafroasiaticanthropology.wordpress.com/2009/04/27/phylogeny-of-african-mitochondrial-dna-lineages-in-european-slavs-
    slavic-people/

    http://billygambelaafroasiaticanthropology.wordpress.com/2009/04/27/the-saga-of-sepharda-by-debra-katz-source-found-online/

    http://billygambelaafroasiaticanthropology.wordpress.com/2009/04/27/macro-haplogroup-l-in-yemenoman-and-saudi-arabias-west-asia/

    • Eman

      “European Slavic Individuals in Addition to Matrilineal mtDna studies on
      Ashkenazi Hebrews both affirm and ultimately”

      Here is what happened, how that Sub-Saharan African DNA got over to some Slavs in Eastern Europe:

      Sephardic Jews lived in Iberia for a very long time. While there they interbred with some Sub-Saharan Africans to an extent, or else with North African and/or Arab groups who had some Sub-Saharan African DNA.

      While living in Iberia, Sephardic Jews often brought Blacks and others in as slaves, and sometimes that DNA entered the Jewish gene pool. Even after their expulsion from Iberia in the 1490s some Jews stayed on there as crypto-Jews. In Portugal especially they imported Black servants and slaves, and ran the plantations in The Americans which used Black slave labor. Iberian Jews were the masterminds of the African slave trade to The Americas.

      Anyhow, these Sephardic Jews eventually crossed path with Ashkenazi Jews, and they as a group often have a Slavic component. After being expelled from Iberia in the 1490s, the Sephardis scattered in all directions. Remember that many of these Sephardic Jews had gained a small percentage of Sub-Saharan African blood after living there in Iberia for at least 1700+ years or so. So yes they did absorb a definite amount of Black blood while there. And they did too in The Americas too, as slave-trading and plantation-owning Sephardi Jews often bred with their female African slaves to a certain degree.

      Some of those expelled Iberian/Sephardic Jews moved to Eastern Europe and other parts of Europe and slowly began to intermarry with the Ashkenazi Jews who lived there, settling in already established Jewish communities. Thus the Ashkenazi Jews absorbed the Sephardi genes which also included the small remnant of SS-African genes.

      Those Ashkenazi had stayed on in Europe for a while, so they picked up some Slavic genes. There is a definite Slavic component of many Ashkenazi Jews. Thus the Ashkenazi/Slavic type merged with the Sephardi/African type, and so you have a big genetic mix up between those groups, with the Jewish part predominating in each but with a little bit of either Slavic or African variation on either side.

      The African DNA you’ll find in Eastern Europe today amongst Slavs is likely from the Sephardi Jews who intermarried with Eastern European Ashkenazim a while back, and over time a few Jews there left the Jewish fold and merged with the general population there (SS-African genes and all).

  4. Dude, you’re banned. Violation of comments rules. But I agree with the second and third sentences.

  5. ብልልይ ። ግምብለ (Billy Gambela)

    Shalom ስሃሎም

    For the record, I am not a Afrocentrist!

    I am a Asiatic-African..

    Now back to business, This confused gentlemen

    stated that Haplogroup E3b M78 is not among

    Ethiopians is a complete farce, actually M2, M35, and M78 are all sprung from the same genetic paternal tree PN2 which ties them all together.

    (below you will find the citations to substantiate my claims)

    http://www.familytreedna.com/pdf/hape3b.pdf

    In addition, i pasted another study that shows the African-Asiatic mtDna in Spain, Portugal and Italy..

    http://www.stats.gla.ac.uk/~vincent/papers/pereira2001.pdf

    Theres your proof!!

    • Thx Billy. I used to date an Egyptian-American woman who was part-Black. She was hot!

    • ብልልይ ። ግምብለ (Billy Gambela)

      Thanks Robert!
      I appreciate your support..

    • Robert

      Lies…
      You are another afrocentrist:

      Genetic differentiation among UEP defined groups of microsatellite-haplotypes is quite high (Rst = 0.59; P We also explored the correspondence between the two types of markers at a geographical level. There is a high and significant correlation observed between pairwise binary-haplogroup-based and microsatellite-haplotype-based distances among nine geographic regions (r = 0.91; P< 10-3). The two-dimensional plots from MDS show similar clusters of populations (Fig. 3), with slight differences possibly due to differential sensitivity of Φst and Rst to different mutational processes. North-western Africa, eastern Africa and the Balkans are well separated from each other and also from the central cluster in both diagrams. The differences are explained to a large extent by: the haplotypes associated with paragroup E-M78* (predominantly observed in north-western Africa), haplogroup E-V32 (found almost exclusively in eastern Africa) and haplogroup E-V13 (the only subset of E-M78 observed in the Balkans). E-V13 is also commonly found in the populations of the central cluster, where, however, other E-M78 sub-haplogroups are also present.

      The E-V13 is the only one found in Europe with the exception of Iberia where the northafrican E-M81 carried by berbers has been found.

      It's time you afrocentrists stop with your lies,
      the african dna in Europe is very low and it can be ascribed to movements prior to neolithic.

      • Paul Vann

        There is a Genetic map of the of the Human Journey out of Africa.
        When humans first ventured out of Africa some 60,000 years ago, they left genetic footprints still visible today. By mapping the appearance and frequency of genetic markers in modern peoples, we create a picture of when and where ancient humans moved around the world. These great migrations eventually led the descendants of a small group of Africans to occupy even the farthest reaches of the Earth.
        Our species is an African one: Africa is where we first evolved, and where we have spent the majority of our time on Earth. The earliest fossils of recognizably modern Homo sapiens appear in the fossil record at Omo Kibish in Ethiopia, around 200,000 years ago. Although earlier fossils may be found over the coming years, this is our best understanding of when and approximately where we originated.
        https://genographic.nationalgeographic.com/human-journey/
        Maybe this will cut down on some of the racist BS, being spouted here, or maybe not.

        • Okay, even when we put aside the complete accuracy of the conventional OOA theory

          http://dienekes.blogspot.com/2016/02/are-living-africans-nested-within.html

          The point you make about footprints as well as your early mentioning of genes/halpogroups, that we have differentiated in the span that we were separated to a significant extent.

          Also, where the emergence was geographically doesn’t tell us what th race was either.

          It was in Easter/ Southern Africa, though the indigenous races their (Bushmen/ Saharans, etc.) are different than the typical “Bantu”-esque West/Central African.

          So even by OOA standards, that doesn’t dispute the ability of d=groups differences, especially scientifically record ones.

    • Robert

      E-M78 is present in all Europe in places where moors(i think this is your point as the whole afrocentrists like to spread) never been either.
      Only berbers who were arabized northafricans took Sicily and Spain and their dna influence over there has been dismounted since time.
      The e3b lineages in Europe date back to pre-neolitich movements.

      It’s time you wake up and realize that YOUR genes didn’t fill south Europe,and the few lineages found in Europe cannot be ascribed to Moors.

  6. Robert

    Taking into account the above data, the previously described European cluster α and the northern African cluster β are indeed confirmed as monophyletic groups of chromosomes, that, very likely, have their own defining binary marker yet to be discovered. Cluster α chromosomes constitute a major branch of the binary haplogroup V13, which, in turn, includes also a few, highly differentiated chromosomes – previously classified either in cluster δ or unclassified. All 29 chromosomes within cluster β belong to the paragroup E-M78*, which is relatively rare and almost exclusively restricted to a single geographic region (i.e. northern Africa), thus a common origin for at least a large part of these is likely.

  7. Robert

    E-M81 is found in NW Africa, not found in sub-Saharan Africa and its frequency sharply decreases eastwards. E-M81 is a “Berber” marker. It is also found in all Iberian populations, signifying Berber admixture, ranging from 1.5% in Northern Italians, 2.2% in Central Italians, 1.6% in southern Spaniards, 3.5% in the French, 4% in the Northern Portuguese, 12.2% in the southern Portuguese and 41.2% in the genetic isolate of the Pasiegos from Cantabria. It is found in only 0.7% of Sicilians and in no southern Italians. It is also not found in the Balkans.

  8. Robert

    “In conclusion, we detected the signatures of several distinct processes of migration and/or recurrent gene flow associated with the dispersal of haplogroup E3b lineages. Early events involved the dispersal of E-M78δ chromosomes from eastern Africa into and out of Africa, as well as the introduction of the E-M34 subclade into Africa from the Near East. Later events involved short-range migrations within Africa (E-M78γ and E-V6) and from northern Africa into Europe (E-M81 and E-M78β), as well as an important range expansion from the Balkans to western and southern-central Europe (E-M78α). This latter expansion was the main contributor to the present distribution of E3b chromosomes in Europe.

  9. Robert

    I think it is enough to dismount afrocentrist lies.

  10. ብልልይ ። ግምብለ (Billy Gambela)

    This is the chart below from the Phylogeographic Origin and Migration of M78 which comes from M35 which is tied together from the PN2 paternal tree…

    Dr. Soy Keita did this Egyptian study explains this relation of African M2,M35 and M78 in part 4 of the Video…

    This relation is not a opinion it is a FACT..

    http://wysinger.homestead.com/keita6.pdf

    Y-Chromosome Haplogroup E Percent

    Frequencies in the Populations Studied

    Frequency of Haplogroup(%)

    Region and Population N E(xE3b) E-M215* E-M35* E-M78a E-M78α E-M78β E-M78γ E-M78δ E-M81 E-M123* E-M34 E-V6
    Europe:
    Northern Portuguese 50 4.0 … 2.0 4.0 2.0 … … … 4.0 … … …
    Southern Portuguese 49 2.0 … … 4.1 4.1 … … … 12.2 … … …
    Pasiegos from Cantabriab 56 … … 1.8 … … … … … 41.1 … … …
    Asturiansb 90 … … … 10.0 5.6 … … 4.4 2.2 … 1.1 …
    Southern Spaniardsb 62 … … 1.6 3.2 … … … 3.2 1.6 … … …
    Spanish Basquesb 55 … … … … … … … … 3.6 … … …
    Frenchb,c 85 … … … 4.7 3.5 … … 1.2 3.5 … … …
    French Basquesc 16 … … … 6.3 … … … 6.3 … … … …
    Corsicansb 140 … … 0.7 4.3 4.3 … … … … … 1.4 …
    Orkney Islandersc 7 … … … … … … … … … … … …
    Danishb 35 … … … 2.9 2.9 … … … … … … …
    Northern Italiansb,c 67 … … … 9.0 7.5 … … 1.5 1.5 … 1.5 …
    Central Italiansb,c 89 … … … 11.2 6.7 … … 3.4 2.2 … … …
    Southern Italiansb 87 … … … 11.5 6.9 … … 2.3 … … 2.3 …
    Siciliansb 136 … … … 14.0 7.4 0.7 … 5.9 0.7 … 6.6 …
    Sardiniansb,c 367 1.6 … 1.1 3.5 1.1 1.1 … 1.1 0.3 … 3.5 …
    Polishb 38 … … … 2.6 2.6 … … … … … … …
    Estoniansb 74 … … 1.4 4.1 4.1 … … … … … … …
    Russiansd 42 … … … … … … … … … … … …
    Rumanians 14 … … … 21.4 21.4 … … … … … … …
    Bulgarians 116 … … … 20.7 19.8 … … … … 0.9 … …
    Albanians 19 … … … 31.6 31.6 … … … … … … …
    Northern Africa:
    Moroccan Arabsb 54 1.9 … … 38.9 … 31.5 1.9 3.7 31.5 … … …
    Moyen Atlas Berbersb 69 5.8 … … 10.1 … 10.1 … … 71.0 … … …
    Marrakesh Berbers 29 3.4 … 3.4 6.9 … … … 3.4 72.4 … 3.4 …
    Mozabite Berbersc 20 10.0 … … … … … … … 80.0 … … …
    Northern Egyptians 21 … … … 28.6 4.8 … 4.8 19.0 4.8 … 4.8 …
    Southern Egyptians 34 … … … 17.6 … … … 5.9 … … … …
    Eastern Africa:
    Ethiopian Jewsb 22 18.2 … 9.1 9.1 … … 9.1 … … … 13.6 …
    Ethiopian Amhara 34 5.9 5.9 2.9 8.8 … … 8.8 … … … 23.5 14.7
    Ethiopian Oromo 25 8.0 … 12.0 32.0 … … 32.0 … … … 8.0 4.0
    Ethiopian Wolayta 12 16.7 … 16.7 16.7 … … 8.3 8.3 … … 8.3 16.7
    Mixed Ethiopians 12 16.7 … 8.3 33.3 … … 8.3 25.0 … … … 8.3
    Somali 23 … … 17.4 52.2 … … 47.8 4.3 … … … 4.3
    Borana (Oromo) from Kenya 7 14.3 … 14.3 71.4 … … 71.4 … … … … …
    Bantu from Kenyac 28 78.6 … 10.7 3.6 … … 3.6 … … … … …
    Nilo-Saharan from Kenya 18 33.3 … 11.1 11.1 … … … 11.1 … … … 5.6
    Sub-Saharan Africa:
    Mandenka Senegalesec 16 93.8 … … 6.3 … … … … … … … …
    Songhai from Niger 10 80.0 … … … … … … … … … … …
    Tuareg from Niger 22 63.6 … … 4.5 … … 4.5 … 9.1 … … …
    Fulbe from Niger 7 71.4 … … … … … … … … … … …
    Fulbe from Nigeria 32 100.0 … … … … … … … … … … …
    Hausa from Nigeria 10 40.0 … … … … … … … … … … …
    Yoruba from Nigeriac 21 90.5 … … … … … … … … … … …
    Biaka Pygmiesc 33 66.7 … … … … … … … … … … …
    Mbuti Pygmiesc 13 53.8 … … … … … … … … … … …
    San from Namibiac 7 … … … … … … … … … … … …
    Southern African !Kungb 64 45.3 … 10.9 … … … … … … … … …
    Southern African Khweb 26 57.7 … 30.8 … … … … … … … … …
    Southern Africa Bantuc 8 75.0 … 12.5 … … … … … … … … …
    Near East:
    Sephardi Turkish 19 … … … … … … … … 5.3 … 5.3 …
    Istanbul Turkish 35 2.9 … … 8.6 2.9 … … 5.7 5.7 … 2.9 …
    Southwestern Turkishb 40 … … … 2.5 2.5 … … … 2.5 … 2.5 …
    Northeastern Turkishb 41 … … … … … … … … 2.4 … … …
    Central Anatolianb 61 … … … 6.6 4.9 … … 1.6 … … 3.3 …
    Southeastern Turkishb 24 … … … 4.2 4.2 … … … … … 4.2 …
    Erzurum Turkishb 25 … … … 4.0 … … … 4.0 … … 8.0 …
    Turkish Cypriotsb 46 4.3 … … 13.0 10.9 … … 2.2 8.7 … 2.2 …
    Bedouinsb 28 3.6 … … 3.6 … … … 3.6 3.6 … 7.1 …
    Druze Arabsb 28 … … … 10.7 … … … 10.7 … … 3.6 …
    Palestiniansb 29 10.3 … … 10.3 3.4 … … 6.9 … … 3.4 …
    United Arab Emirateb 41 7.3 … … 2.4 … … … 2.4 … … 4.9 …
    Omaniteb 13 … … … 7.7 … … … 7.7 … … 7.7 …
    Caucasus:
    Azerib 97 … … … 2.1 … … … … … … 2.1 …
    Adygeic 18 … … … … … … … … … … … …
    Pakistanic 176 0.6 … … 1.1 … … … 1.1 … … … …
    Eastern Asiansb,c 245 … … … … … … … … … … … …
    Oceaniansc 21 … … … … … … … … … … … …
    Native Americansc 43 … … … … … … … … … … … …
    aE-M78 frequency includes chromosomes belonging to clusters α–δ and 14 additional chromosomes (12 chromosomes excluded from the four clusters in fig. 2B and two Azeri chromosomes for which complete microsatellite data were not available).
    bThis sample (or a subset of it) was previously typed for a subset of the markers here analyzed (Scozzari et al. 1997, 2001; Malaspina et al. 2000, 2001; Cruciani et al. 2002).
    cSample (or a subset of it) from the Human Genome Diversity Project/CEPH DNA panel (Cann et al. 2002).

    This sample includes 16 DNA samples from the Human Genome Diversity Project/CEPH DNA panel and 26 previously reported samples (Scozzari et al. 2001).

    Am J Hum Genet. 2004 May; 74(5): 1014–1022.
    Published online 2004 March 24.

    Copyright © 2004 by The American Society of Human Genetics.
    All rights reserved.
    (copy of the chart showing m78,m35 in Africa)
    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1181964/table/TB1/
    **************************************************
    From what i gather, from studies I read on M78/ V13.

    ( M78/V13) Within Europe, E-V13 is especially common in the

    Balkans and some parts of Italy.

    In different studies,

    particularly high frequencies have been observed in Kosovar Albanians (45.6%) (Peričic et al. (2005)),

    Albanian speakers in the Republic of Macedonia (34.4%) (Battaglia et al. (2008)), and Peloponnesian Greeks (47%)

    M78 Originated in North East Africa, with a corridor for bidirectional migrations between the trans-Meditteranean

    migrations directly from Northeast Africa to Europe and Asia minor

    (mainly in the last 13.0 ky), as well as a flow from Northeast Africa to Western Asia (between 20.0 and 6.8 ky ago.)

    A single clade within E-M78 (E-V13) highlights a range of migrations in the Bronze Age of southeastern Europe.

    (below you will find the link to the genetic study).

    I would also like to ask, where are you located

    What Country/City ?

    Did you test for mtDna as well, and

    if so your assigned haplogroup ?

    What Dna company did you use ?

    http://dirkschweitzer.net/E3b-papers/MolecularBiologyandEvolution-07-24-6-1300.pdf

    If you really, want to challenge me.. Come by my Blog!!
    I will need more writing space to elaborate my findings…

    I am perplexed on why you are trying to separate, the Lineage and Origin of M35, and M78 from its African Background Haplogroup Pn2..

    I will be waiting…

  11. Robert

    As previuosly said, those charts prove anything.
    Only that e3b M78 e M81 is not a subsaharan haplogroup but northafrican or i.e berbers.

    Subsaharan africans have little to no amount compared to berbers(except maybe Ethiopians)and that e3b M78 e M81 in Europe is not related to subsaharan africans but to north africans who still today have different phenotypes.

  12. Robert

    the word “migrated from eastern Africa” should be managed carefully.

    R was the haplogroup that originated R1b and R1a and it came from Asia.

    Now the higher % are found,for the r1b in Scotland,Ireland and Welsh and for the R1a among slavic people.

  13. Eman

    A 2007 study says that out of the entire White American population, only a bit over 3% have any amount of Sub-Saharan and/or Native-American (Asiatic genes)…amongst supposedly White ‘Hispanics’ the latter number is of course much higher.

    “In sharp contrast with the situation of the Caucasian population of Latin American countries, only 3.1% of the American Caucasian sequences had African and/or Amerindian origin. To explain this discrepancy we propose that the finding of elevated genomic contributions from European males and Amerindian or African females depends not only on the occurrence of directional mating, but also on the “racial” categorization of the children born from these relations. In this respect, social practices in Latin America and in the United States diverge considerably; in the former socially significant “races” are normally designated according to physical appearance, while in the latter descent appears to be the most important factor.” – http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17573655

    • That study is no good. Another study found that 30% of White Americans have *Black* genes, so Amerindian must be even higher. I know I have some Amerindian, but it’s only like 1/3000th. I’m related to Pocohontas. We go back to the “First Families of Virginia” from before 1700. Yes, we were in Virginia in the 1600’s. Other relatives came over on the second Mayflower boat.

  14. Jasmine

    Ummm. the Ancient Egyptians orginated from the upper nile i.e current day Sudan and Ethopia. What in the world makes you think that is not “black”? Eurocentrics like you need to stop with this propaganda.
    “Whites” did not start and build the Ancient Egyptian civilizations; black Africans did. An no , I’m not talking about AE during it’s colonization., that’s the only “white” that was part of it.

    • Nope, ancient Egyptians were NOT Black. Sorry.

      • dubz

        Robert, I find it interesting that you are willing to cite studies that prove that possibly 30% of white Americans have “black genes” (and even a higher number possibly having Native American genes), and we know that whites throughout most of American history legislatively, vehemently, and violently opposed miscegenation with the sole purpose of excluding the African gene from the white American population, but you seem to believe it impossible that most ancient Egyptians, a dark-skinned people who originated, developed, prospered, and lived in Africa for millenniums, could not have had a significant amount of so-called “sub-Saharan Black blood” in their genome to be deemed a “Black” people by modern social and so-called “racial” standards.

        The improbability of this is almost impossible to phantom…for if racist White American segregationist descendents are at least 30% “Black” than Ancient Egyptians had to be no less than 75% Black African or higher, just like most African Americans…

        To this day, there has been no unique forms of color or “racial” stratification or discrimination found in ancient Egyptian text that would isolate ancient Egyptians from the rest of Africa’s genome or divide them “racially” or genetically amongst themselves (outside of possibly the royal class of the pharaonic families).

        And let’s be even clearer, Ancient Egypt was an empire and not merely a nation or a race of people specifically, and if we were to define this area of the world “racially” based on it’s aboriginal people, like archeologist have done with North America or the United States, you would have to make it the original home of an Black African people relative to the people that defined the rest of the continents most ancient past, as exemplified by phenotypes in today’s sub-Saharan Africa.

        • Whites are NOT 30% Black! 30% of Whites have Black genes. The average amount of Black in them is 1.3%!

          Ancient Egyptians were thought to be 9% Black on genetics. I am ok with that figure.

        • Jet Li

          -.-” what did you said? please study more world history in Wikipedia, Japan in the Meiji years, the wars between Russia and Japan and how Japan won, and read more news in google news to find to how powerful the chinese army is getting… you are very young, you need to learn a lot more about the world and history and the things that are happening in the world,that is

        • coward

          Jet Li, I can’t believe that, you, as a white man, are claiming Asians are militaristically superior! Second of all, the Russians were not motivated, and it was a naval batle that decided the outcome of the Russo-Japanese War. If those Russians had been motivated they would have wiped Japan off the planet. All it took were a few British to colonize Hong Kong, and we beat Japan in WWII and forced them to surrender using the atom bomb, which white scientists invented. I would really like to see the Japanese invent the next earth-shattering weapon. They wont, because of one reason only; they are not white.

        • Naruto Uzumaki

          well, you very young, at your age i didn’t know many things either, i will teach you something, the chinese created one next earth-shattering weapon, the gunpowderr, the earliest depiction of a firearm is a sculpture from a cave in Sichuan, China
          as for my race: i decided to convert to japanese, i am a japanese (inside) ,i chosed it, like her

        • coward

          Actually not only that but the Acrobatoids also invented the first “guns”, which was basically a gun with a long metal stick for a projectile. Whites improved it into a modern gun. That doesnt matter, though, whites can kick their arse with nukes and guns or with hands and feet.

        • Jet Li

          asians still win , because the nukes created by americans were simple, the modern nukes that China have are more improved versions, so is a tie, just like the chinese created the first guns and whites improved them; all the nukes that the chinese have now are much more modern and better from the first nukes the american used against Japan, asians have more power and thats why i chose to be in their side

    • coward

      Jasmine, the sad truth is, whites DID build and rule Egypt. Us sub Saharans didnt really accomplish anything except for farming and metalworking, and the ruling class for any Black kingdom was white or part white. Halie Selassie is a great example. Note the beard, Caucasoid facial features, and lighter skin. We have too much self esteem. The average black is not a MLK, Obama, and Trayvon Martin all rolled into one. In a world of many races, some of them HAVE to be inferior, and thats just us. Soon white people will wake up and exterminate our race. They are a ticking time bomb, and all it takes is a few motivated whites to destroy the planet’s 6 billion coloreds. Believe it or not, this so called “White Genocide” is good for the whites, because when there is only a few hundred of them left, they will have no PC whites to get in their way. Less than a hundred motivated whites are more than enough to crush a future 10 billion coloreds, after all, we are looking at a race who split the atom, sent man into space, and conquered everything they have ever set their minds to. White people will not vanish, they will learn from their past and genocide the planet. Not even the Amazing Acrobatic Asians will stop them, as they are so subservient a few motivated whites could walk in and take over their continent. Asians will not even fight back, because they will sumbit to the whites immediately. As for us Blacks, well, we dont even stand a chance even if we DID fight back.

  15. dubz

    Well Robert Lindsay, let’s go with your figures, if this is true, the only reason 30% of Whites have 1.3% “Black blood” is because of the stringent enforcement of segregation in the US that attempted to exclude any person with even 1/32 African Blood (the one drop rule) from the white population, otherwise the numbers on all accounts would be much higher, and this is between two groups of people that were both foreign to their present land of habitation, and who have only been interacting closely with each other in this particular historical context for roughly 500 years.

    On the other hand, there is no evidence that the ancient Egyptians migrated into or invaded the African continent, all evidence proves that they were an aboriginal African people, all of their text point to the Upper Nile – Sudanic and Nubian origins, and their identifiable presence as a people, city-state, and the center of their dynastic empire ranges over thousands of years in one geographic location, Africa! Any degree of non-African blood or “non-Black blood” that was evident in Egypt came from outside the African continent, and until the Ptolemaic Greeks, most invaders presence were short-lived and eventually repelled. Again, there is no evidence of any large non-African populations migrating into ancient Egypt even during invasions, let alone creating an 91% Indo-European population that would have overwhelmed ancient Egypt’s genetic foundations, which was African! Absolutely unfounded and impossible!

    From early Greek scholars and historians, to religious text, to today’s prominent researchers, all have repeatedly cited overwhelming evidence that Ancient Egypt was a product of ancient Africa and that the people were consider, Black and African…and if anyone look at the great Spinx face and see any other features but that of an phenotypical sub-Saharan African, then they intentionally deluding themselves.

  16. Alex999

    Hello

    What I find most disturbing about most of these post, is inciting hate eather way No matter how far you go back we FIND all of the haplogroups go back to Africa!! We are African in different colors!! My Father is from Macadonia and my Mother is from Austria. You feel because if your not European that your nothing well guess what 89% of the world is not from Europe meaning so called NON WHITE, and one day will over crowed and cover the whole world. We are all human beings not a haplogroup that you can pick over like some chicken on a bug and pick at what you feel is lesser than you. You have no power over who and what place you where born. So get over it and enjoy one another for who and what we are. Remember this, that no matter how far your ansestry goes back in one place we all come from one point in time AFRICA.

  17. coward

    Robert, I know that Y-chromosomes can be an indicaters of autosomes from the same race but I only go by the autosomal charts, because the genes that code for traits that determine your race are on the autosomes.

  18. Thomas

    I recently got my results back from 23andMe. My father’s side is from Southern Italy, specifically Reggio di Calabria and Messina, Sicily. According to my results, I have only 0.1% Sub-Saharan African DNA (for all I know this could be from my mother’s side- I also found out I was 0.2% East Asian which was a real surprise). If my calculations are correct, 0.1% means I had a 100% black ancestor about 14 generations ago, and if the average generation length is 25 years, it could have been towards the end of the period that the Moors controlled much of Sicily and possibly Sub-Saharans brought over then might have assimilated, I hope to get my grandparents tested to find out more.
    Also interesting was that I have 6% Balkan and 2% Iberian and 1% North African- I would have expected more North African and closer to 0% Iberian

  19. popopopo

    e1b1b is greek race gene(mediterranean) not black….author of this blog is so ignorant and typical ignorant american….I don’t even want to argue with him…ethiopians are greek race not black…

  20. S.D.

    Sicilians in the Eastern regions nearest Carthage (Who formed the majority of emigres to East Coast United States) are quick to point out that their bloodlines can be traced to Saracen Arabs, erstwhile colonists of the island.

    Saracen Arab is unique to Siciliy and Southern Italy as oppose to Spain or Portugal.

    Greeks are primarily Balkan-Slavic and possess far less Arabic blood than either Iberians or Southern Italians despite Levantine proximity.

    Sub-Saharan Africa is very far South of Arabized North Africa.

    Italians themselves attribute the gang violence and vendetta culture of Southern Italy to this Saracen Arab admixture and Arabs also acknowledge that Sicilians and Maltese are a “lost colony” of sorts.

    • Jm8

      It’s probably not from Saracens(who probably left a pretty small demographic influence at least.), though they might have had some similar ways. The Vendetta is an ancient part of Greek culture, which has a strong and deep-rooted influence in Southern Italy,(and a variety of other ancient cultures of the Eastern Mediterranean, Balkans, West Asia…etc. ,probably including some Italic and other native tribes of Italy) Feuds and their importance go all through Greek history back to Homer, still continuing into modern times in parts of Greece e.g.: with the Maniots and on some Greek islands. Similar kinds of of family structures and political/social patronage systems (to those of later times in Italy) were present in Greek and Roman culture and not uncommon in the ancient history of those regions. They might form the basic grounding of later systems like the Mafia (which has counterparts outside Sicily; in Calabria, Campania, and Apulia)
      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Feud#History

      Slavic is not a major component of Greek ancestry. It is probably about 10 -20% in Northern Greece, and less- about nothing in the rest of the country. The Slavs, by the time their invasion/raidings reached parts of Byzantine Greece would really have been some mixture of the “pure”/true Slavs doing from near the Poland-Belarus/Ukraine Slavic homeland, and the Thraco-Dacians peoples native to the Balkans they had absorbed (as the Slavic speaking peoples that live now in the Balkans, having been slavicized by an earlier phase of those Slavic tribal migrations/invasions south, are such a genetic mix) .

      • Jm8

        “The Vendetta is an ancient part of Greek culture. And Greek culture has a strong and deep-rooted influence in Southern Italy,”

  21. S.D.

    Al Pacino does not look like Billy Zane or Telly Savalas. He looks like an Arab (Okay he’s played Hispanics, Italian-Americans and Jews on film). Short with jet black eyes and hair and scimitar for a nose.

    TRUE ROMANCE’S famous scene (Chris Walken is the son of a German immigrant and does not look Italian much less “part-black” which makes the context even more false) has sunk into the public conscience but Sicilians are not “octoroons” who are ten percent black. Ten percent Arab if you tally up the Saracen AND Phoenician maybe, but not black.

    Greeks are Europeans and no debate that they did in fact possess Sicily and Southern Italy as colonies (Much earlier than the Medieval Saracens) but I was referring to non-European blood in Southern Italians,

    Normans, French and other Europeans also left their genetic markers but the argument that Sub-Saharan Africans (Who struggle to get to Italy as modern-day boat people much less from the savanna of 1,000 years ago) transformed Sicilians into Octoroons who are 1/8 African is ludicrous. Absurd.

    Greeks seem to have less Arab blood than Sicilians, Maltese and possibly the Spanish. I know nothing of the rest of the Balkan countries although I would have to believe that because Bosnian and Albanian people are Muslim that some Arab admixture also exists.

  22. Random

    Southern Italians don’t have a small percentage of Sub Saharan African DNA. In fact they have none, but they do have around a quarter of Arab blood in them. My girlfriend who is pure Southern Italian got about a 3/4 European and about a quarter Arab Ancestry DNA results. Other Southern Italians have posted similar varying results in the Ancestry DNA forum.

    Arabs from the Caucusus, Middle East and North Africa are Caucasian so this makes Southern Italians 100% Caucasian even if they are not fully White or European. Now, it it possible that some of that Arab Ancestry is SSA, but it didn’t show up on the DNA results at all so I doubt it.

  23. Hey Robert you know that so called “Caucasoid” line? Could that be the mutated ancestry dravidians carry from elam which is one of the earliest kingdoms? Can this be an explanation why so many dravids resemble Australoid and ethiopids?
    Thank You,
    Akhil Tummala

  24. I agree about the Egyptians being predominantly Caucasoid with minor conflict, but I believe some southern Egyptians are more like a mixed race between blacks and whites that leans more towards whites kind of something like a 70-80% Caucasoid-20-30% Congoid mix.

  25. Robert I have realized you have been doing lots of posts talking about the truth on black genes of Arabs and southern Europeans. Great job! I know they seem butthurt. But even more so, can you please make a post on Australoid admixture in indians because some of us seem to be even more butthurt than the Arabs and south euro’s about this admixture in us?
    Thank you,
    Akhil Tummala

  26. I would classify Italians as Caucasoid. 10-15% Is enough mixture to give an influence in features but most likey the person will look Caucasian. I feel like southern Europeans like Greeks,Spaniards and other countries in southern Europe are a link between north Europeans and arabs.

    • And those Arabs were moors who were like intermediates between congoid and Caucasoids.

    • A-Man

      They are not so much a LINK as composite of Arab tribes who migrated and colonized the extreme South of Europe.

      Pashtun people, as another example, are not Persians precisely but some type of Central Asian people whom the Persians culturally colonized over generations.

  27. The main thrust of Arabs into Sicily was Phoenician. Perhaps some Tunisians but Berbers were usually foot-soldiers for Caliphates in Saudi or elsewhere.

    Berbers are an Afro-Asiatic group who have since the Arab advance in 7 AD across the Maghreb been somewhat intermixed.

    • Vignesh

      Yeah that’s what I’m saying. Didn’t the original dravidians descend from Phoenicians but as they went into India they mixed with black Australoid s which changed their features.

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