Secular Rise in Black IQ and Head Size: Evidence For a Eugenic Effect

Repost from the old site, with additions.

It is common refrain among race realists, and in particular White racists, who make a fetish out of the number, that the US Black IQ is 85. Broadly speaking, that used to be the case, but IQ’s of Black children have always been higher.

Blacks having high IQ’s as young children that gradually decline towards adulthood unfortunately has been noted by researchers and observers for a long time. There are descriptions of this phenomenon going back to 1850. So there is no need for White nationalists to get all freaked out when someone says that Black elementary school kids are pretty smart.

More charming Black thugs, throwing gang signs and looking menacing. The young woman is a mulatto or very light-skinned Black girl. I used to see kids like her a lot when I taught school. Although the people above are acting like complete idiots, Blacks this age have average IQ's of 90. I've dealt with quite a few Black gangbanger kids like this as a teacher, and most of them aren't stupid at all. They're just assholes. No excuses.

More charming Black thugs, throwing gang signs and looking menacing. The young woman is a mulatto or very light-skinned Black girl. I used to see kids like her a lot when I taught school. Although the people above are acting like complete idiots, Blacks this age have average IQ’s of 90. I’ve dealt with quite a few Black gangbanger kids like this as a teacher, and most of them aren’t stupid at all. They’re just assholes. No excuses.

I believe that Black adult IQ has been bumped up to 89 now and Black child IQ to 92 due to changes in IQ norming in the US. IQ tests were formerly normed on a scale of US Whites = 100. A couple years ago, I think they changed it to US population = 100. That’s the only explanation I can come up with for the scores in the table below.

So now the US White adult IQ is 103 and White kids are the same (actually White adult IQ = 102.5; White Child IQ = 103.5), and the US Black adult IQ is 89, and child IQ is 92. So there is an 10.5 pt gap between B-W kids and a 13.5 pt gap between B-W adults.

But even Charles Murray and Philippe Rushton, two White racist scientists working in this field, concede that the B-W gap has shrunk about 3 points in the last 30 years.

I believe that the US Asian score has now been bumped up to 107. We would also estimate that the IQ’s of US Hispanics to be about 92-93 now and US Amerindian IQ’s should be about 91 or so, all with the renorming.

Things haven’t really changed much, just the whole scale has been bumped up. It’s important to understand that.

These scores are taken from this paper, and indicate varying scores for IQ tests and semi-IQ tests taken over about 30 years. As you move down in each individual row, you move into revised versions of the tests in more recent years.As you can see, White adult IQ (age 25+) in the US is now 102.6, or 103 rounded off. Black adult IQ (age 25+) has increased in recent years to 89.1 or 89 rounded off. There remains a 13.5 point gap between Blacks and Whites. It is no longer appropriate to say that Blacks have an IQ of 85. The B-W child gap is about 11 points. On the Stanford-Binet test, which can be given to both children and adults, there is a 10.8 point gap, but it would be nice to see who the S-B was given to, kids or adults.

These scores are taken from this paper, and indicate varying scores for IQ tests and semi-IQ tests taken over about 30 years. As you move down in each individual row, you move into revised versions of the tests in more recent years.As you can see, White adult IQ (age 25+) in the US is now 102.6, or 103 rounded off. Black adult IQ (age 25+) has increased in recent years to 89.1 or 89 rounded off.
There remains a 13.5 point gap between Blacks and Whites. It is no longer appropriate to say that Blacks have an IQ of 85. The B-W child gap is about 11 points. On the Stanford-Binet test, which can be given to both children and adults, there is a 10.8 point gap, but it would be nice to see who the S-B was given to, kids or adults.

It is correct that with a 10-14 pt B-W IQ gap at the moment, “leveling the playing field”, which really boils down to equality of outcome, is not possible without much magic, fakery and nonsense. It would be ideal if racial IQ differences, while changing, would at least enter into this debate, but that’s not possible right now.

Keep in mind that Black IQ declines as Blacks age. James Flynn, a world-recognized expert in the field, said a while back that Black 5-yr-olds may have IQ’s of 95. Traditionally, they suffered a 10 pt drop down to 85 at age 25.

With renorming, Black 5 year olds may have IQ’s as high as 98. That’s going to drop to 89 by age 25. There have been articles recently remarking on how Black school performance is worse in Black high schoolers than in Black elementary schoolers. Black high schoolers have lower IQ’s than Black elementary students, and this will reflect in scores.

He may have been a thug, but Mychal Bell, famous stereotypical Black thug of Jena Six fame, was also said to be a pretty smart kid. There were reports that he was an A student, but in my discussions with prominent Jena, Louisiana citizens who knew some of his teachers, they said that he was intelligent, but he did not get good grades. I used to see this all the time as a teacher. US Blacks can no longer be said to be stupid. I think that high school failure rates are due to either culture, socioeconomics, or else genetic Black personality, or some combination of one or more of those. Even White highly extroverted persons don't like to be chained to a seat all day, and most of them hate school and studying. They want excitement, good times and adventure. Ditto with Black thrill-seekers like Mr. Bell.

He may have been a thug, but Mychal Bell, famous stereotypical Black thug of Jena Six fame, was also said to be a pretty smart kid. There were reports that he was an A student, but in my discussions with prominent Jena, Louisiana citizens who knew some of his teachers, they said that he was intelligent, but he did not get good grades. I used to see this all the time as a teacher.
US Blacks can no longer be said to be stupid. I think that high school failure rates are due to either culture, socioeconomics, or else genetic Black personality, or some combination of one or more of those. Even White highly extroverted persons don’t like to be chained to a seat all day, and most of them hate school and studying. They want excitement, good times and adventure. Ditto with Black thrill-seekers like Mr. Bell.

White racists like to rant about “no progress” in the Black IQ of 85 over 100 years. That “no progress” claim does not include Flynn Effect Black IQ rise of 22 pts since 1930, much of which have been washed out because White IQ has been rising concomitantly with the Black rise.

These same racists usually say that the Flynn Effect is not a real intelligence rise, but Black skulls have gotten dramatically larger since 1900 to the point where they are dramatically different from African skulls. It would stand to reason that a dramatic increase in Black skull size combined with a dramatic increase in Black IQ would represent a real intelligence increase – the Flynn Effect.

US White and US Black skulls now look more alike than either skull does to its ancestors 150 yrs ago.

We are creating a new race here in the US - the Negro. A study looking at head sizes from the colonial era to today found that Whites and Black skulls now resemble each other more than either one resembles their grandparents. Both Black and White skulls have gotten larger, taller and narrower, the lower half of the face and jaw have receded, and the chin has become more prominent. Both changes are in favor of more progressive features and against more archaic features.That means that modern Whites have skulls that look more like modern Blacks than our White ancestors of 250 years ago. And modern Blacks have skulls that look more like modern Whites than their African slave ancestors of 250 years. I do not feel that it is appropriate to constantly compare US Negroes with Black Africans. Not only are they completely different groups of people living on different continents for centuries, but at the moment, they're not even equivalent racially in many ways. US Negro skulls do not look much like Black African skulls anymore. The change in general is that US Black skulls have moved to an intermediate position between Africans and Europeans, in part due to interbreeding with Whites, but also due to improvements in environment, especially nutrition. Researchers also suggest genetic changes in skull size for both US Blacks and Whites.

We are creating a new race here in the US – the Negro. A study looking at head sizes from the colonial era to today found that Whites and Black skulls now resemble each other more than either one resembles their grandparents. Both Black and White skulls have gotten larger, taller and narrower, the lower half of the face and jaw have receded, and the chin has become more prominent.
Both changes are in favor of more progressive features and against more archaic features.That means that modern Whites have skulls that look more like modern Blacks than our White ancestors of 250 years ago. And modern Blacks have skulls that look more like modern Whites than their African slave ancestors of 250 years.
I do not feel that it is appropriate to constantly compare US Negroes with Black Africans. Not only are they completely different groups of people living on different continents for centuries, but at the moment, they’re not even equivalent racially in many ways. US Negro skulls do not look much like Black African skulls anymore.
The change in general is that US Black skulls have moved to an intermediate position between Africans and Europeans, in part due to interbreeding with Whites, but also due to improvements in environment, especially nutrition. Researchers also suggest genetic changes in skull size for both US Blacks and Whites.

We really are smarter than our grandparents.

The implications of this are interesting. Truesdell notes that the changes in favor of more progressive features and against more archaic features in both Black and White skulls were “in part genetic.” What this means is that both Blacks and Whites have been preferentially (eugenically) selecting for more progressive facial features and against more archaic features.

As progressive facial features tend to have higher IQ’s and archaic features tend to have lower IQ’s, the result was eugenic selection towards more attractive features and higher intelligence. In Blacks, these changes have occurred since 1900, while in Whites, they have been going on since colonial times.

In slave society, there probably was not a lot of progressive selection going on. With liberation, Blacks were freer to choose partners who could make more money. Since 1900, Blacks have been practicing eugenic selection towards Blacks who look “Whiter” and are more intelligent. In earlier times, Whiter Blacks could probably negotiate better in White society and could possibly make more money. But Black positive selection for Whiter features continues to this day.

All of the race realist ranting about dysgenics grows very tiresome. Humans are intelligent creatures. It’s only logical that the evolution that drove us to this point is ongoing. Selection for better looking and more intelligent partners is a wise choice for any intelligent mammal, and we are the smartest of them all.

Another White racist lie is that the Black-White achievement gap has not moved in the past 40 years, since we noticed it and declared war on it. In fact, the B-W achievement gap has shrunk by 1/3 over the past 30 yrs and there is evidence the decline was related to spending on education. Obviously, given IQ realities, there is going to be a point of diminishing returns here.

References

Dickens, William T. & Flynn, James R. October 2006. Black Americans Reduce the Racial IQ Gap: Evidence from Standardization Samples. Psychological Science.

Jantz, RL. July 2001. Cranial change in Americans: 1850-1975. J Forensic Sci. 46(4):784-7.

Truesdell, Nicole D. May 2005. Secular Change In The Skull Between American Blacks And Whites. MA Thesis. Baton Rogue, LA: Louisiana State University and Agricultural and Mechanical College, Department of Geography and Anthropology.

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100 Comments

Filed under Blacks, Eugenics, Evolution, Genetics, Intelligence, Psychology, Race Realism, Race/Ethnicity, Reposts From The Old Site, Science, Whites

100 responses to “Secular Rise in Black IQ and Head Size: Evidence For a Eugenic Effect

  1. Chi

    In their recent working paper commenting on Nisbett’s book, Rushton & Jensen comment on the Flynn/Dickens paper (they also published a response in 2006, which is viewable on Rushton’s faculty page).

    There is a concern that scores could be dropping again due to dysgenic trends, which are possibly affecting the black community even more strongly.

    http://psychology.uwo.ca/faculty/rushtonpdfs/Intelligence%20and%20How%20to%20Get%20It%20(Working%20Paper).pdf

    • Yes, and Flynn/Dickens respond to the response. I’ve read that stuff many times.

      The dysgenics stuff doesn’t make any sense at all. Scores are dropping in parts of Europe, but no one knows if it’s dysgenic. The Flynn Effect is still going gangbusters in the US, though, and Black scores are continuing to rise.

  2. Susu

    I’m betting that there is no gap in intelligence between “races” and never was. Based on my life experience and common-sense, I have to go with the notion that there was stereotype intimidation used by whites (maybe even inadvertently) in administering the earlier tests, thus causing the results of tests taken by minorities of the time to be negatively skewed. Please look over the studies by Steele and Aronson regarding stereotype threat and intellectual test performance.

    After several years of studying and trying to analyze statistics, I’ve learned that they are not proof of anything in any subject. Always question them or anyone who goes by them as some sole measure of proof.

    Unfortunately, if you are labeled as something long enough by your peers and superiors (meaning adults), you tend to believe it eventually — like a self-fulfilling prophecy.

    • I don’t believe in stereotype threat. It’s nonsense. Furthermore, Blacks consistently overestimate their ability in a wide variety of subjects. Blacks do much worse in school and on a variety of other tests. It really doesn’t matter if they are less intelligent or not. You have to pass your courses and your tests. If you can’t, you fail or others score higher and get the job instead.

      It’s interesting that African immigrants (very highly selected) have IQ’s in the 105-110 range. One would think that they would suffer the worst stereotype threat of all.

    • tulio

      Well, stereotype threat has been an observed phenomenon tested under controlled experiments. So I’m not sure what it is about the theory that you dispute. Nobody claims that stereotype threat accounts for the entire achievement gap, merely that it factors in.

      It might also explain in part why some white ethnic immigrant groups in the past have scored far below the white median, such as Italians and Irish. At that time, these groups were looked upon as garbage my mainstream whites.

    • ggg

      “Well, stereotype threat has been an observed phenomenon tested under controlled experiments. ”

      No stereotype has been observed that explains the persistent racial IQ gap. To the extent that it can be demonstrated, it has only been demonstrated to effect all races equally.

      “So I’m not sure what it is about the theory that you dispute. Nobody claims that stereotype threat accounts for the entire achievement gap, merely that it factors in.”

      A claim which has no evidence in its favor. Under “high threat” conditions, blacks score worse than usual, as do whites and in about equal proportions. Under “low threat” conditions, they score as well as they do on previously taken standardized tests. You can suppress scores with these experiments but you can’t raise them by alleviating the “threat.”

      It’s the difference between saying that one can demonstrate stereotype threat and saying that on can prove that an analogous condition exists for black test takers in general.

  3. Sandy

    I have attended classes with some Nigerians, Africans and Black Caribbean kids and still do.
    The strange thing is that they almost always excelled at the sciences and at Academics because their parents seemed to instill a premium on education at an early age. They knew this was their ticket to success.

    I believe that in the Black American community there is not enough of a focus put on education which is the main problem. The gangs and drug traffic in addition to the crime situation is not helping.
    Parents need to teach their children like the Jews did that welfare and crime can’t help you only an education can!!

    The only way to achieve equality and a good life is through education.
    Personally, I find these studies claiming African brains to be smaller than White and Asian ones to be highly suspect. I will not believe it until there is a true study of foreign brains, and not just estimates.
    Absolute power corrupts absolutely for some people so I am skeptical at this point.
    Others like Flynn tend to be more fair and objective. I believe in study habits, nutrition and tradition for problems not race.
    Hasn’t the American Anthropological Association denounced race as a true biological concept?

  4. Sarah

    “Hasn’t the American Anthropological Association denounced race as a true biological concept?”

    Yes, but that is a political position not a scientific one.

    http://infoproc.blogspot.com/2007/01/metric-on-space-of-genomes-and.html

    http://infoproc.blogspot.com/2008/01/no-scientific-basis-for-race.html

    The challenge now is to create a moral framework to discuss group differences that are being uncovered by the Human Genome Project.

    From Nature, October 8, 2009:

    “Let’s celebrate human genetic diversity

    Science is finding evidence of genetic diversity among groups of people as well as among individuals. This discovery should be embraced, not feared, say Bruce T. Lahn and Lanny Ebenstein.

    A growing body of data is revealing the nature of human genetic diversity at increasingly finer resolution. It is now recognized that despite the high degree of genetic similarities that bind humanity together as a species, considerable diversity exists at both individual and group levels (see box, page 728). The biological significance of these variations remains to be explored fully. But enough evidence has come to the fore to warrant the question: what if scientific data ultimately demonstrate that genetically based biological variation exists at non-trivial levels not only among individuals but also among groups? In our view, the scientific community and society at large are ill-prepared for such a possibility. We need a moral response to this question that is robust irrespective of what research uncovers about human diversity. Here, we argue for the moral position that genetic diversity, from within or among groups, should be embraced and celebrated as one of humanity’s chief assets.

    The current moral position is a sort of ‘biological egalitarianism’. This dominant position emerged in recent decades largely to correct grave historical injustices, including genocide that were committed with the support of pseudo scientific understandings of group diversity. The racial-hygiene theory promoted by German geneticists Fritz Lenz, Eugene Fischer and others during the Nazi era is one notorious example of such pseudoscience. Biological egalitarianism is the view that no or almost no meaningful genetically based biological differences exist among human groups, with the exception of a few superficial traits such as skin colour. Proponents of this view seem to hope that, by promoting biological sameness, discrimination against groups or individuals will become groundless.

    We believe that this position, although well intentioned, is illogical and even dangerous, as it implies that if significant group diversity were established, discrimination might thereby be justified. We reject this position. Equality of opportunity and respect for human dignity should be humankind’s common aspirations, notwithstanding human differences no matter how big or small. We also think that biological egalitarianism may not remain viable in light of the growing body of empirical data…”

    http://www.gnxp.com/blog/Lahn.pdf

    • Sandy

      The links that you posted are to blogs which are not scientific proof so they can’t refute the explicit statement of AAA on race.
      What proof do you offer to support your claim that their statement is political and not scientific anyway?
      Your statement cannot be proved as you offer no proof for your comment but the AAA itself affirms that their statement is based on the scientific data which does not support the claim of race beyond pigmentation and other superficial traits.
      Unless you have proof where they admit that their statement was political and not scientific that is grasping at straws for a position you want. You need proof to challenge a reputed organization’s (AAA) word!!
      http://www.aaanet.org/stmts/racepp.htm
      Here is AAA’s statement on “race”
      {{{{{American Anthropological Association
      Statement on “Race”
      (May 17, 1998)
      The following statement was adopted by the Executive Board of the American Anthropological Association, acting on a draft prepared by a committee of representative American anthropologists. It does not reflect a consensus of all members of the AAA, as individuals vary in their approaches to the study of “race.” We believe that it represents generally the contemporary thinking and scholarly positions of a majority of anthropologists.
      ——————————————————————————–
      In the United States both scholars and the general public have been conditioned to viewing human races as natural and separate divisions within the human species based on visible physical differences. With the vast expansion of scientific knowledge in this century, however, it has become clear that human populations are not unambiguous, clearly demarcated, biologically distinct groups. Evidence from the analysis of genetics (e.g., DNA) indicates that most physical variation, about 94%, lies within so-called racial groups. Conventional geographic “racial” groupings differ from one another only in about 6% of their genes. This means that there is greater variation within “racial” groups than between them. In neighboring populations there is much overlapping of genes and their phenotypic (physical) expressions. Throughout history whenever different groups have come into contact, they have interbred. The continued sharing of genetic materials has maintained all of humankind as a single species.
      Physical variations in any given trait tend to occur gradually rather than abruptly over geographic areas. And because physical traits are inherited independently of one another, knowing the range of one trait does not predict the presence of others. For example, skin color varies largely from light in the temperate areas in the north to dark in the tropical areas in the south; its intensity is not related to nose shape or hair texture. Dark skin may be associated with frizzy or kinky hair or curly or wavy or straight hair, all of which are found among different indigenous peoples in tropical regions. These facts render any attempt to establish lines of division among biological populations both arbitrary and subjective. }}}}
      The third link that you posted is from a genetic scientist but again it’s a “what if” scenario nothing based on present data. Basically a review based on a supposition of “What if” since the current data proves that diversity within races is much greater than that between races; therefore debunking the theory of race that was created by Jefferson to justify owning human beings as slaves.
      You can read about it here.
      http://www.pbs.org/race/003_RaceTimeline/003_01-timeline.htm
      Race did not exist until colonists wanted to justify slavery. That is the only reason for race. Ironic since Jefferson has Black and White descendants that he started the whole ball rolling.
      http://www.pbs.org/race/003_RaceTimeline/003_01-timeline.htm
      I think inequalities like these show that there would inevitably be deleterious consequences to Blacks as a result of slavery and Jim Crow and centuries accumulated of being educationally behind as a result of slavery alone. It does not surprise anybody, I don’t think that AFTER JUST 45 years since the civil right bill that their education and IQ would be affected in tests and at a very young age too. It would be affected at a young age because nutrition and your parents’ health will affect your IQ too later in life. Studies show that many Black teenage mothers smoke, do not take care of themselves physically and nutritionally nor do they obtain adequate prenatal care during pregnancy.
      Studies show lead content from low housing of Blacks will reduce IQ as will lack of breastfeeding or good nutrition as many Black teenage moms refuse to breastfeed, take their vitamins during pregnancy. Many also refuse to take care of themselves like their White counterparts during pregnancy because they were not taught.
      The problem is to find out the real reasons for these low IQ tests such as study habits, lack of nutrition, lack of good child nutrition, lack of vitamins during pregnancy, lack of proper medical prenatal care; the mother’s prenatal habits and other problems rather than taking the easy cop out and putting it down on race. That is getting way old. Aren’t we suppose to stop playing the “race card” but that is all supremacists do but if a minority complains about injustice and racism suddenly they’re the ones playing the race card!! LOL
      Blacks are just as capable as all people to learn and are just as intelligent. We need to look at the real reasons for these low IQ’s beyond the convenient racial supremacist route. They started from nothing and were discriminated and ostracized for centuries yet in spite of all that and reduced opportunities the fact that Blacks are only 15 points behind Whites in IQ tests (Given their huge late start in the race) speaks for itself. They will catch up if earnest studies look for the real reasons behind these numbers.
      The scientific data on race shows 85% genetic diversity within races compared to 6% between races….If this doesn’t prove that race is a social construct inherited from a legacy of slavery what will? It is clear that no amount of scientific data will dissuade the supremacist because he or she needs their racial fix but the reality is that race has been debunked in view of the scientific data.
      For that reason we don’t get studies which prove race but instead we get premature “what if” scenarios like the one you posted. I think the reason for this is that some people are too invested in the illusion of race and whatever boost that it offers them to let it disappear without a fight. The concept of race was flawed from the start as you can’t really judge a book by its cover or from a few superficial external traits. Our ancestors had it right as the only way to judge groups of people and their differences is by geography ergo culture. In similar geography, people tend to have the same nutritional habits, culture and climate so their growth patterns over time will tend to be similar and still the genetic diversity is greater within local populations.
      On your article: Change is hard so in view of the data disproving race it is not surprising that some pseudo scientists and racist scientists will attempt to prematurely expect an outcome that is not coming; thus prematurely argue against current scientific data and jump the gun and postulating possibilities which is what is done in your article.

      From your article:
      {{what if scientific data ultimately demonstrate that genetically based biological variation exists at non-trivial levels not only among individuals but also among groups?}}

      The operative word is “What if” science proves there is equal diversity between groups NOT races? Why are we arguing a supposition as if it were reality anyway? I think it is because some people still need to cling to the belief of race and these authors may be attempting to pretty up their need for continued split of beings with the cute, self-serving catch phrase “Let’s celebrate human diversity,” if they are indeed pushing race. It has been proved that there is some diversity among groups of people BUT not races. Aso proven is that diversity is 10 times higher within individuals than between groups so the article is premature until this possibility occurs.

      Your article also says:

      {{{{ For most biological traits, genetically based differentiation among groups is

      probably negligible compared with the variation within the group. For other traits, such

      as pigmentation and lactose intolerance, differences among groups are so substantial

      that the trait displays an inter-group difference that is non-trivial compared with

      the variance within groups.}}}}

      They admit that diversity between groups is negligible yet make an issue about pigmentation which is a sun protecting adaptation in Africans? LOL. That is absurd this is superficial and goes to diet, nutrition and sunlight. LOL. This article is very lacking in facts but just suppositions and wishful thinking. IMO, rather than filling a need to fill superior to others through beliefs of race maybe people should try to have their own personal accomplishments that they can feel proud about as individuals rather than a silly racial group thing. LOL. seriously it’s absurd and what’s even the point!!

      It gets old.

      There is human diversity but it is within groups of people rather than in races (Your article is a bit behind). It is based on geography NOT than race.
      Here are some recent studies.
      http://www.pbs.org/race/004_HumanDiversity/004_01-quiz.htm
      {{Two random Swedes are likely to be as diverse as a Swede and a random Senegalese. 85% of genetic diversity is contained within a given population than between the races themselves which is only at 6%.
      http://www.pbs.org/race/004_HumanDiversity/004_01-explore.htm
      {{Distribution of skin color and flaws with race. Skin color correlates with sunlight and latitude only}}
      http://www.pbs.org/race/004_HumanDiversity/004_01-explore.htm
      {{Head sizes vary also within continents and NOT between racial groups as usually expounded.}}
      http://www.pbs.org/race/004_HumanDiversity/004_01-explore.htm
      http://www.pbs.org/race/004_HumanDiversity/004_01-explore.htm
      {{Ironically slavery itself brought the different geographical groups together guaranteeing genetic similarities between continents. Migration insures that genetic material remains constant within groups as material is constantly swapped.}}
      http://www.pbs.org/race/004_HumanDiversity/004_01-explore.htm
      Shows patterns of early human migrations.
      http://www.pbs.org/race/004_HumanDiversity/004_01-explore.htm
      The scientific conclusion is that we humans are all mongrels in our genes. No human group has ever been isolated long enough to evolve into a separate race. The superficial differences are only skin deep not gene deep —our differences such as sickle cell disease are geographical not racial. For example, sickle cell trait is found in Africa, Greece and the Mediterranean, Arab countries where malaria was prevalent, it is not racial.
      http://www.pbs.org/race/004_HumanDiversity/004_01-explore.htm
      {{Genetic differences do differ between individuals and groups BUT these differences DO NOT follow racial lines hence AAA’s statement on race. Human beings are 99.9% alike but of the differences between us (in the .1%) 855 of this variation and diversity is found within the local racial population itself.
      Race was invented to justify slavery but slavery has been abolished so I do not understand why this is so important to some people to cling to?
      Beyond some medical purposes what is the point of clinging to race when the data shows that geography and populations differ more than he small racial differences found between so-called races. Population differences are what matter not race which is not real.
      http://www.pbs.org/race/004_HumanDiversity/004_01-explore.htm
      {{We can map any number of traits and none would match the idea of race. One trait does not guarantee another so it does not make sense to talk about group race characteristics whether internal or external. }}
      http://www.pbs.org/race/003_RaceTimeline/003_01-timeline.htm
      {{Non Whites have never accepted to be treated as inferior because they were not. Inferior people usually do not fight back and accept their fate as lesser than.}}
      http://www.pbs.org/race/003_RaceTimeline/003_01-timeline.htm
      {{Race evolved as a means to justify slavery}}
      Read it above.

      http://www.pbs.org/race/002_SortingPeople/002_02-traits.htm
      {{Race is a social idea meaning the way we group people is not based on nature but on our own ideas.}}
      http://www.pbs.org/race/002_SortingPeople/002_02-traits.htm
      click on the skin color, blood and finger print tabs and see that even within the racial definition it is incorrect as different so-called races vary from these standards.
      http://www.pbs.org/race/001_WhatIsRace/001_00-home.htm
      {{Is race real? Not one trait, characteristic or gene differentiates the members of one so-called race from members of another.}}
      Click on bullets 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9
      http://www.pbs.org/race/001_WhatIsRace/001_00-home.htm
      {{Slavery predates race}}
      http://www.pbs.org/race/001_WhatIsRace/001_00-home.htm
      {{Race and freedom were born together, ironically enough}}
      http://www.pbs.org/race/001_WhatIsRace/001_00-home.htm
      {{Race justified social inequalities and reinforced the slave economy that was needed for the USA.}}
      http://www.pbs.org/race/001_WhatIsRace/001_00-home.htm
      http://www.pbs.org/race/001_WhatIsRace/001_00-home.htm
      {{Human subspecies do not exist}}
      http://www.pbs.org/race/001_WhatIsRace/001_00-home.htm
      {{Most genetic variation is within and not between races.}}
      How can race be real then?
      http://www.pbs.org/race/001_WhatIsRace/001_00-home.htm
      {{Race is not biological but racism is real}}

    • Hi Sandy. We’re not into race denial here on Robert Lindsay. Or at least I’m not. I really, really wish you race deniers were right though, because that’s what I want to believe. But my eyes and ears and brain and lived experience tells me that race must be real.

      At the very least, a Caucasian – Asian (Mongoloid) – African (Negroid) three way split makes sense in all sorts of ways. Certainly genetically.

      Races, subspecies and species of biological taxa are generally specified based on genetic distance these days. Based on genetic distance, we have more than enough evidence for three races and easily enough for 8-9. We could even call them subspecies I think, but we don’t want to, because it seems rude. There’s much more genetic difference between the major races than between your typical subspecies of say birds or snake species.

    • tulio

      I had always thought of the difference between races being analogous to the differences between breeds of dogs, and even then breeds that aren’t too far apart. They are still the same species, but in varying configurations of size, bone structure, hair texture, nose shape and skull shapes. I don’t think there’s as much variation in human races as there are between dog breeds. For example, you won’t find the size difference in humans that you’ll find between a Chihuahua and a Great Dane.

    • ox

      ffs Sandy, get a life.

  5. Sarah

    “I believe that in the Black American community there is not enough of a focus put on education which is the main problem.”

    That doesn’t seem to explain the data?

    “Further, even according to what we see in Roland Fryer’s newest paper on “acting white”, the idea that blacks have a culture of lower academic values, which is increasingly being embraced by liberals thanks to John Ogbu, is at least highly exaggerated and simply cannot account for the IQ gap. In fact, despite their lower performance, which is genuine, multiple lines of evidence point to African-Americans valuing academics nearly as much as white Americans, if not equally so (for instance spending just as much time on homework. A number of lines of evidence are discussed by Ludwig and Cook in The Black-White Test Score Gap, which you can read here)…

    One longitudinal study, the only one of its kind, of black children raised in white homes, showed that by highschool these adoptees scored no differently on IQ tests than African-Americans raised by their biological parents. Meanwhile three studies of Asians [1] raised in white families showed higher than average test scores…

    A newer study published in the American Journal of Orthopsyciatry allows us to compare adopted white children with, at least small samples of, transracially adopted Asian children to try and answer this question. An advantage of this study is that it used data from the National Longitudinal Study of Adolescent Health which means it was able to compare developmentally mature adoptees in grades 7-12, instead of children at ages like 4 or 6 when differences are less stable. Comparing 350 white adoptees with 24 Asian transracial adoptees, and (a mere) 8 black transracial adoptees, the authors found differences on a number of different dimensions that went in the same direction they usually do, despite the controlled ethnic upbringing (lower scores mean better grades, less learning problems, less delinquency, and more self-esteem):

    http://www.gnxp.com/MT2/archives/004064.html

    Also, look at the data on those from middle class families:

    “But, remarkably, the children of blacks whose income is over $70K attain an average SAT score lower than that of the children of whites whose income is well into the poverty level of $0K to $10K. Likewise, the children of blacks who had achieved a graduate level degree score lower on average on the SAT than do the children of whites who only finished HS.”

    http://liberalbiorealism.wordpress.com/category/uncategorized/

    • tulio

      “Further, even according to what we see in Roland Fryer’s newest paper on “acting white”, the idea that blacks have a culture of lower academic values, which is increasingly being embraced by liberals thanks to John Ogbu, is at least highly exaggerated and simply cannot account for the IQ gap.”

      Hmm, if you’ve ever spend any time in the ghetto as I have, you realize that there very much is a stong anti-intellectual culture there, kids growing up without fathers and little parental investment, and the cultural as well as physical wasteland that these young children are brought up in is enough to make you want to cry. While I am agnostic as to whether the IQ gap is genetic, i.e. I don’t outright deny the possibility, I have seen environments so failed in the ghetto that it’s hard for me to believe that isn’t playing a very significant role.

      It very well may be that there are biological gaps, in fact I wouldn’t be surprised, I just have a hunch the the gap isn’t as big as it appears to be. I wouldn’t bet on the gap between Ashkenazi Jews at the high end and Austrailian Aboriginees at the low end being completely leveled, but I feel like you’d see a sizable convergence if newborn infants were raised in in identical environments.

      Anyway, I don’t think low IQ is the reason for the most the problems in black America, I think it’s mainly a cultural problem in the underclass and the ghetto mindset. There are countries with low average IQs where families are quite intact and violent crime is not a major issue. In fact, even for African-Americans, absent fathers were uncommon at one time. I don’t think this kind of stuff is genetic.

    • alpha unit

      I think, too, that there is an overemphasis on race when it comes to certain issues. Race doesn’t explain as much as some people think it does.

      The issue of race can actually obscure what’s really going on in some situations.

    • speakeasy

      Well put, alpha.

    • Sandy

      ffs, ox. Speak for yourself and get a life yourself.

  6. Sandy

    What is your genetic or scientific data for believing in race, Robert? How about the fact that the data says that you can’t judge a book by its cover.

    I read that you are not a race denier but I accept the scientific data and do not believe in race. Do only pro race believers post here?
    I think you should let newcomers know that this blog is for race conscious posters only — if that is the case of course. Please let me know so that I know if I should stop posting here

  7. tulio

    I was just reading this excerpt below and found it interesting: http://www.library.flawlesslogic.com/iq.htm

    The media’s spectacular denial probably arises from the juxtaposition of the book’s demonstrations; first, that what is termed “social pathology” — delinquency, crime, drug abuse, illegitimacy, child neglect, permanent welfare dependency — is disproportionately concentrated (for whites and blacks alike) in the segment of the population with IQs below 75; and second, that at least one-fourth of the black population (compared to one-twentieth of the white population) falls below that critical IQ point in the bell curve. Because the smaller percentage of white persons with IQs below 75 are fairly well scattered throughout the population, many are guided, helped, and protected by their abler families, friends, and neighbors, whose IQs average closer to 100. Relatively few are liable to be concentrated in the poor neighborhoods and housing projects that harbor the “critical mass” of very low IQs which generates more than its fair share of social pathology. The “critical mass” effect exists mostly in the inner city, which has been largely abandoned by whites. Of course thinking citizens are troubled. Thinking about possible constructive remedies strains one’s wisdom.

    He argues that social pathology(at least the visible kind anyway, high IQ people have their own more insidious ways of doing things) is disproportionately concentrated in the below IQ 75 threshold where 1 in 4 blacks resides and 1 in 20 whites reside. Furthermore he notes that 1 in 20 is not enough to have a high concentration and such people are typically surrounded by people with IQs closer to 100.

    If in the future, anti-racist race realism drives public policy, perhaps one manner of dealing with the ghetto problem would simply be to disperse the inhabitants. Housing projects and concentrations of poverty and low IQ is the worse policy I can imagine. There is a certain synergy that comes with concentrating these disadvantaged folks that makes the problem far worse than it would had these same guys been spread thinner. For example, gangs would be less likely to form, a drug dealing social infrastructure would be weakened. Concentrating low IQ and violent people actually makes their behavior far worse than it would be were they living apart from each other, which is why prison makes people even worse. Now obviously you can’t socially energy society to make some even distribution of blacks and whites with no concentrations, but thinks like housing projects which can be just a step above prisons must be rethought.

    • tulio

      It’s late, my spelling is off, mean to say in the last post at the bottom “socially engineer society” and “things” instead of “thinks”.

  8. tulio

    One last thing before I head to bed. I think this whole IQ gap issue will eventually go away. One of a few things will happen at some point in the future:

    1) The country will become so racially mixed that IQs scores begin to converge and the issue becomes moot.

    2) If IQ scores continue to keep rising over time, at some point, that 15pt IQ gap(if it continues to hold) will become insignificant. When average IQ is 100, 85 makes quite a difference. If average IQ some day is today’s equivalent of 160, then 145 is not going to produce any noticeable difference in social behavior and the issue will become moot.

    3) Eugenics. I think the lure of designer babies pre-selected for beauty, eye color, height, intelligence and a number of other desirable traits will be too much for humanity to resist. If the technology appears, and there’s every reason to think it will in the not so distance future, it makes everything moot once again. Of course that could produce a bio-diversity problem if too many “undesirable” traits are filtered out of the genepool, but that’s a separate matter altogether.

    • Sandy

      Tulio, I hope you are wrong about eugenics. Look at what happened in Nazi Germany because of it and a madman.
      6 millions Jewish people, Gypsies and Slavs unfairly slaughtered.
      Eugenics is too dangerous for humanity to mess with in our early emotional infancy. When we are more spiritually mature, it will be different.

    • Sandy

      Good point AU,
      I totally agree.

    • ggg

      “1) The country will become so racially mixed that IQs scores begin to converge and the issue becomes moot.”

      That hasn’t happened in Brazil, a nation with much more miscegenation than in the U.S.

  9. Sandy

    {{Tulio writes:
    If in the future, anti-racist race realism drives public policy, perhaps one manner of dealing with the ghetto problem would simply be to disperse the inhabitants. Housing projects and concentrations of poverty and low IQ is the worse policy I can imagine. There is a certain synergy that comes with concentrating these disadvantaged folks that makes the problem far worse than it would had these same guys been spread thinner. For example, gangs would be less likely to form, a drug dealing social infrastructure would be weakened. Concentrating low IQ and violent people actually makes their behavior far worse than it would be were they living apart from each other, which is why prison makes people even worse. Now obviously you can’t socially energy society to make some even distribution of blacks and whites with no concentrations, but thinks like housing projects which can be just a step above prisons must be rethought.}}

    I agree with that. This ghetto, low urban housing concentration only creates a group of uncivilized, scary group of people. And this is not meant to be racist: Whatever group of people this happened too whether supposedly Black, White, Asian would inevitable end up like this.
    genetics account for 1/4 to 1/2 of behavior but environment makes great contribution. A decent upbringing, good values and nutrition along with proper prenatal care could do wonders in showing whether race exists or not —although I do not believe it does.
    Robert you stated superficial differences for the existence of race but judging people on looks alone means that you are prejudging them, surely that is not what you meant? You did say you wanted to disbelieve in race too so I thought I’d mention that.

    As this is your website, I reallly would like to know what this website is about? If only race conscious people can post here please let me know I am not big on race to say the least — personally I think it’s an outdated concept but that’s me!
    How about checking my links?

    http://www.aft.org/pubs-reports/american_educator/spring2003/catastrop he.html
    Income level affects vocabulary
    http://economix.blogs.nytimes.com/2009/08/27/sat-scores-and-family-inc ome/?apage=3
    Income level correlates with children’s SAT scores.

    • You can post here all you want. We don’t censor here. But race denial will not get you very far with me. The site is not for race conscious only, but most regular posters are not race deniers. One of the founding principles of the site is Liberal Race Realism, which is something like the anti-racist race realism tulio discusses.

      I judge races on genetic distance alone. Based on that alone, we can easily split the human race into 8-9 major races and IMHO 82 or so minor races and probably more.

  10. Sarah

    “Income level correlates with children’s SAT scores.”

    Greg Mankiw explains why this is not surprising:

    “The NY Times Economix blog offers us the above graph, showing that kids from higher income families get higher average SAT scores.

    Of course! But so what? This fact tells us nothing about the causal impact of income on test scores. (Economix does not advance a causal interpretation, but nor does it warn readers against it.)

    This graph is a good example of omitted variable bias, a statistical issue discussed in Chapter 2 of my favorite textbook. The key omitted variable here is parents’ IQ. Smart parents make more money and pass those good genes on to their offspring.

    Suppose we were to graph average SAT scores by the number of bathrooms a student has in his or her family home. That curve would also likely slope upward. (After all, people with more money buy larger homes with more bathrooms.) But it would be a mistake to conclude that installing an extra toilet raises yours kids’ SAT scores.

    It would be interesting to see the above graph reproduced for adopted children only. I bet that the curve would be a lot flatter.”

    http://gregmankiw.blogspot.com/2009/08/least-surprising-correlation-of-all.html

    “In essence, what I said was

    1. People vary in their innate talents, as measured by, say, IQ tests.

    2. More talented people tend to earn higher incomes.

    3. More talented people tend to have more talented biological children–that is, talent is partially heritable.

    4. As a logical implication of the above three points, the raw correlation of kids’ SAT scores and family income conflates the true effects of family income with the biological transmission of talent.

    I would be curious which of the above four statements Paul does not agree with.

    Paul himself is a good case illustrating my point. He is smart, and he has high income. I don’t think those two facts are a mere coincidence. Instead, his innate talent is a large element of his success. I would bet that if he had had children, they would likely have been smart as well, even if he spent only average resources rearing them (such as, for example, if he put them up for adoption).”

    http://gregmankiw.blogspot.com/2009/08/and-i-thought-i-was-being-boring.html

  11. what does one’s race have anything to do with their IQ or behavior?

    Its soo ridiculous to say an entire race is dumber than some other race and I am Asian too..

    If I was a race realist, I would be defending myself saying ‘Asians are intellectually superior’ and stuff like that but we all know it will get you nowhere.

    • Ang

      Lol! If you were a race realist? Apparently you are not! You are a disgrace to your intelligent race, traitor!

  12. tulio

    Its soo ridiculous to say an entire race is dumber than some other race and I am Asian too..

    That’s what I fear, that more people are going to start saying, “those people are dumb” categorically and it’s going to lead to genuine bigotry.

    IQ doesn’t determine someone’s worth as a human. It’s simply a measure of how efficient your brain is with certain abstract, cognitive functions. It doesn’t measure common sense, street smarts, wisdom, how amicable you are, your sense of ethics, social intelligence, or anything else that factors in to your savvyness as a person. To many racists, lower IQ = inferiority, case closed. Even if there is undeniable proof of a genetically-based intelligence gap between races, I’m not sure the world is yet ready to deal with it and the social consequences in a sensible manner.

    That’s why I think an ethical race-realism movement may be necessary in order to combat the Hitlers and David Dukes of the world who will exploit the science to support hateful ideologies.

    • It’s already happening. On the WN sites, they seem to have a very hard time believing that there are any smart Blacks anywhere on the planet. I don’t get it. I guess they don’t understand statistics? There were endless comments about Barack and especially Obama not being very smart. I mean for Chrissake man. They both graduated from top law schools and then not only that, they both passed the bar and are practicing attorneys!

      And for Chrissake, Barack was a law professor! Ever met a stupid law professor. That proves intelligence right there. You can’t graduate Ivy League, pass the bar, practice law and God forbid, teach law, without being quite intelligent. I don’t care what their damned IQ’s are. They’re smart. Their qualifications prove that abundantly.

      This is one of the problems with AA. Whenever you bring this stuff up, they say AA! AA! AA! Due to AA, no matter achievements a Black person makes, they scream AA. Pitiful.

      I never met a stupid attorney in my life. I don’t think they exist.

      They do admit that Michael Eric Dyson is smart, but they say that is due to his being heavily White. Sure a lot of the smarter Blacks are lighter, but they are many, many very smart Blacks who are very dark skinned. There are lot of whip-smart Blacks from Africa, for God’s sake.

      Anyway, US Black IQ is not that low really. I think it’s around 86.8 now, but figures vary. There are plenty of stable populations around the world with IQ’s like that. Further, there are many populations with 87 IQ’s that have extremely low rates of violence.

      What IS low IQ though is that 67 figure for Africans. That’s just ridiculously low and it’s not going to work. Caribbean Blacks also have quite low IQ’s. 71-72 or thereabouts. But American Blacks are dramatically more intelligent than any other Blacks outside the West. It’s almost like they are a different race – the Negro. Partly White genetically and culturally due to centuries in America, and quite different from other Blacks as a result.

    • speakeasy

      On the Eric Dyson thing, whenever there is a light skinned black man that is intelligent, people always want to assume that it is because they are half white. I’m dark skin, my sister is about as light as Dyson, we have the same parents. My IQ is around 20pts higher than my sister’s. Just because a particular black person inherited the genes for light color doesn’t necessarily determine anything about their intelligence. I know a few blacks in my family that are “high yellas” and are dumb as bricks.

    • Sagat

      Well, I think judging people by individuals is always the best policy, but looking at group performance s important not only for governmental regulations but also for also for the sake of knowledge. I know that Blacks have the highest crime rate. I also know that most Blacks are not criminals. When I meet a Black person, I judge him/her based on character, but at the same time, if I’m going to choose where to live, I’m going to factor in the stats for high Black crime into my moving decisions.

    • ggg

      “That’s what I fear, that more people are going to start saying, “those people are dumb” categorically and it’s going to lead to genuine bigotry.”

      Conversely, I have a fear of my own. That when gaps in achievement between races arise, more people are going to start saying “those people are racist” in reference to the races achieving more. I then fear the attempts to root out this “racism” and the negative impact it will have on those who’s only crime is to be more talented and smarter.

      Oh wait, that’s already happening..

  13. Pingback: More Record-Shattering Traffic on Robert Lindsay « Robert Lindsay

  14. Sema, your comment got deleted due to violations of the comments rules. Pls read the rules and repost, or simply leave the site.

    Thank you for your time.

    HAND.

  15. Julie

    Comparing Black & White IQ test scores, in America more specifically, is tentamount to comparing apples to oranges. In view of history and so many other reasons (Mainly the fact that tests and tools tend to be biased in favor of their creators), it can’t be done objectively and certainly not accurately by use of IQ tests.

    The following link posted by the previous poster supports this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/African_immigration_to_the_United_States

  16. P Schwartz

    “Comparing Black & White IQ test scores, in America more specifically, is tentamount to comparing apples to oranges. In view of history and so many other reasons (Mainly the fact that tests and tools tend to be biased in favor of their creators), it can’t be done objectively and certainly not accurately by use of IQ tests.”

    The biased in favour of their creators argument has been dismissed by the APA Taskforce following the Bell Curve. ‘Intelligence: Knowns & Unknowns’. Socio-economic status and bias do not explain group differences.

    Also, there are neurological correlates which suggest the tests are measuring something real.

    http://www.loni.ucla.edu/~thompson/PDF/nrn0604-GrayThompson.pdf

    Brain size is only one factor (about .33 positive correlation), but it is notable that there are clear differences in average brain size across groups.

    Ankney, C. D. (2009). Whole-brain size and general mental ability: A review. International Journal of Neuroscience, 119, 691-731

    http://psychology.uwo.ca/faculty/rushtonpdfs/2009%20IJN.pdf

    Also, to the person denying race:

    “Genetic Structure, Self-Identified Race/Ethnicity, and Confounding in Case-Control Association Studies. :

    Numerous recent studies using a variety of genetic markers have shown that, for example, individuals sampled worldwide fall into clusters that roughly correspond to continental lines, as well as to the commonly used self-identifying racial groups: Africans, European/West Asians, East Asians, Pacific Islanders, and Native Americans (Bowcock et al. 1994; Calafell et al. 1998; Rosenberg et al. 2002).

    Subjects identified themselves as belonging to one of four major racial/ethnic groups (white, African American, East Asian, and Hispanic) and were recruited from 15 different geographic locales within the United States and Taiwan. Genetic cluster analysis of the microsatellite markers produced four major clusters, which showed near-perfect correspondence with the four self-reported race/ethnicity categories.”

    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1196372/

  17. Julie

    Schwartz, the BELL CURVE? Seriously? LOL. There are few things more biased than that absurd, ego stroking study by an egotistical racist. Hitler himself would probably be very proud of its advocates..The bell curve is a joke; anyway the AAA has spoken on that. http://www.aaanet.org/stmts/racepp.htm

    The problem with embracing such self-promoting, narcissistic theories is not just it’s tacit selfishness but worse the realization that the very posing of the question denotes arrogance, a lack of humility and inferiority sue to conflict of interest. This type of egotistical, conceited argument in itself mainly serves to disprove its own hypothesis to those who try to think a bit more humbly about life IMO. LOL

    IMO people embracing this type of arrogant premises similarly to Hitler, Nazis and supremacists of all kinds, ironically, mainly prove their own insecurities and their own inferiority.

    Truly intelligent people are humble as you know so the arrogance here proves the inferiority of those embracing such nonsensical speculation without unequivocal proof IMO. The question challenges its own premise which is sad.

    The argument about the APA taskforce disproving the apples to oranges argument is a joke (How so did they disprove that truth?). That argument is way too convenient, way too self-serving again showing a pathological arrogance and an unstable lack of humility (IMO); thus disproving the superiority theory it embraces.

    Such cases exemplify situations where the ego stroking affirmation of a given premise disproves its own validity; this due to its flawed arrogance and self-serving hubris.

    Again, comparing AA IQ and White IQ is apples and oranges. In naming the APA it’s interesting that their narrow view (IMO) should surpass that of the American Anthropological Association for you?

    Like I said, IQ tests designed by Whites will favor Whites or more accurately, they will tend to favor Whites or those embracing White/Western values which they do. I don’t think it takes rocket science to use a little bit of logic, right, Schwartz?

    Jews entering the US and Europe in the 19th and 20th century were labeled inferior due to poor IQ scores and supposedly smaller brains. The same went for Asians until these two groups embraced Western values and now have the highest scores around, even slightly higher than Whites themselves.

    I’m sorry there are no inferior people and if there are the results may surprise the pretenders to the so-called throne of superiority. LOL. IQ tests tend to favor those people who have not been demoralized due to living in impoverished societies thus studies actually show IQ scores favors societal groups NOT supposed races. They seem to favor Whites because Whites have a head start and are better educated and richer for the most part, plus test makers favor their own group. It’s just logic, Schwartz. Sorry to burst your “race embracing bubble” but indulge if you need the race fix..

    Good luck believing Whites/your kind are superior to everybody else based on their own self-made IQ tests. LOL LOL.

    People deny race because they refuse to be addicts to any man made fallacy. I see these people as enlightened and humble. They recognize race for the man made evil it is and recognize an archaic, outdated concept when they see one. If embracing this mirage of race helps you sleep better at night, then by all means GO for it but do not call those who refuse to be addicts to an ego boosting illusion “race deniers” when the opposite is true, IMO. In actuality, I see such people who choose to refute hatred and conceit as the best of human nature.

    To me and to most humble people, race and superiority are only an illusion. In verity not dwelling on race causes no harm to anyone so it seems to me that attitude follows the “golden rule.” Can “race dividers” pretend to achieve such altruistic ideals ever?

    You are a “humanity” denier or a “equality” denier which cases much harm (It created hitler and his Germany) so which is the decent way?

    I understand that it’s appealing and desirable to want to think that we are superior to other people: It’s a drug, and it becomes an addiction at this point for “race IQ lovers” IMO but at some point, get back down to Earth with the rest of us. Open your eyes and mind. It’s surreal when you try to use a selfish flaw/addiction to try to prove superiority.

    Never mind. What am I saying? An addiction is an addiction, Schwartz.

  18. Uncle Milton

    To Julie:

    The bell curve is a joke; anyway the AAA has spoken on that. http://www.aaanet.org/stmts/racepp.htm

    There is no mention of the Bell Curve in the link above. Whatever you might think about race.. people who identify themselves as Black on average under perform academically (thus the origin of affirmative action..) and on IQ tests.. and people who identify as Asian (either South or Northeast Asian..) tend to outperform academically and on IQ tests. You may call that a social construct but it is recognized not only by individuals themselves.. but certain compensation is granted to Black and sometimes Latino Americans because of it. (Affirmative action…)

    Like I said, IQ tests designed by Whites will favor Whites or more accurately, they will tend to favor Whites or those embracing White/Western values which they do.

    Northeast Asians (Japanese,Chinese, and Korean) born in Asia outperform Whites.

    Truly intelligent people are humble ..
    Some are.. many are not.

    They seem to favor Whites because Whites have a head start and are better educated and richer for the most part, plus test makers favor their own group.

    Not really:

    Jews entering the US and Europe in the 19th and 20th century were labeled inferior due to poor IQ scores and supposedly smaller brains.

    False, Jewish academic out performance was noted in both Europe and the US as early as the 19th century.

    There were quotas implemented in Europe
    and in the US restricting the numbers of Jews entering the Universities because the number of Jewish academic stars was decidedly higher than the general Jewish population. (which threatened gentile Whites..)

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Numerus_clausus#Historical_use_as_a_prejudiced_rule
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_quota

    If you wish to rebut the notion of IQ as it relates to academic performance… try to avoid the same recycled canards. That said I do think IQ tests are a rather blunt measurement of intelligence. Even one of the authors of the Bell Curve (the one who is still alive..) has expressed great doubts about tests like the SAT and the ACT.

    • Jul

      To uncle Milton,
      Right after you mention that IQ tests are blunt measures of intelligence –which is very questionable in itself– you proceed to defend the notion of racism on this speculative tool as your crutch..next, you ironically purport to criticize the usage of old canards as a form of credible argumentation while using the old canard of “racism” yourself? LOL.
      You then deny that true and pure intelligence of people involves being humble? LOL. True intelligence takes NOTHING for granted and knows that we know nothing for certain –To paraphrase Socrates. So please!
      It’s risible to watch the self-contradictory comments made by racists as they desperately attempt to use suspect data (such preliminary, flawed studies like IQ over socio-economic groups) as if it were some credible proof of anything serious. What is apparent is racists have no problem with self-contradictions so long as their narcissistic addiction is fed. The truly intelligent refuse to grasp at straws in support of ill-advised, outdated notions IMO. What good could possibly come from embracing such unilateral, demeaning, arrogant divisive positions anyway?

      What inherently intelligent person embrace such absurd, divisive beliefs ostracizing other individuals? The attitude itself negates the premise of “superiority” hence the self-contradiction. Racists are not very intelligent as common sense and logic intuit.

      The racist position would be laughable if not for the smell of desperation we hear from the “race dividers” side. It comes across that racists are insecure; they seem to desperately need to justify slavery; stroke their egos to feel superior to their peers.

      UncleMilton, the debate on race and IQ is pathetic..I see no reason why I have to pretend that such obviously ill-motivated “research” embodies anything other than the swill that it actually is. The only possible genetic determinant per the studies is geographical (That can also deviate as cultures exchange ideas, nutrition is improved, behaviors change IMO) not racial –this in view of the data.

      It is a known fact that environmental hardships can lower IQ heritability to almost nothing so how is it possible for a TRULY intelligent person to say anything useful about IQs across groups? Anybody who insists at this preliminary stage that IQ scores are “proof” of genetic differences is a narcissistic racist no better than the old supremacist Aryan base.

      Most of the Jewish people due of their faith tend to be very humble which humility, I believe shows real enlightenment. Academic achievements DO NOT prove true intelligence or superiority and the fact that anyone would make such an arrogant statement denies its own premise.
      The truly intelligence think at great length, they use their brains and realize these convenient, self-stroking illusions are to be refuted and do so, Milton.
      You need to look inward and end the same old racist canards yourself, Milton. It has gotten so old, it’s dead.
      Few truly intelligent people believe that race or superficial reasons determine intelligence, Milton (Speaking of old canards).
      Humbly speaking, data on immigrant Africans scoring higher than Whites suggest that intelligence is most likely partially genetic and environmental but certainly linked to the effort put into it and the social environment one is raised in.

      Intelligence is partially genetic but that is not the last word.

      Practice makes perfect being an operating factor in life therefore the will, the drive, health, culture and geography are the determining factors NOT race. Narcissism is the answer to those wooing the “superiority” crown. Way to have their own racist attitude contradict their so-called claim to superiority.

      IQ tests were most certainly used to support Jewish and Italian inferiority so go back to your history, UncleMilton.
      Hitler did this so your attitude is probably offensive to the average, enlightened Jewish person. They know better as they lives through unfair narcissistic racism of the majority “not so superior” groups.
      http://www.migrationinformation.org/Feature/display.cfm?ID=439

      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nazism

      The Nazis used eugenics and the belief of the superior Aryan race to prove Jewish inferiority.

      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Race_and_intelligence

      (Read passage: Racial discrimination in education)

      (Also read passage: Caste-like minorities)

      The book Inequality by design: Cracking the Bell Curve myth explains it all. Racists and narcissists embrace the Bell Curve myth, the intelligent people laugh at the desperate race dividers and racists.

      Common sense alone proves this is a hypocritical falsehood to attempt to use IQ tests of unequal groups as if these groups were equal. Self-serving, megalomaniacal hogwash.

      Adopting such an absurd position itself shows inferiority of the race dividers.

      http://iq-test.learninginfo.org/iq01.htm

      (IQ test founder heeds IQ tests do not measure intelligence an only meant to help, thus misused!!)

      The racist IQ position is self-stroking at best and insane arrogance at worst. Pick your poison.

      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scientific_racism

      The book Inequality by Design: Cracking the Bell Curve Myth (1996)

  19. FrankBD

    Robert, have you seen Philippe Rushton’s latest on VDare? I think he’s trying to rebut one of the studies you cited recently.

    I don’t have the background to take sides, but do you think Rushton’s the one leaving something out, or is he telling the truth that Nisbett is?

    http://www.vdare.com/rushton/100125_nisbett.htm

    • I don’t think he’s trying to debunk any of the studies I have cited recently. However, the 5.5 pt narrowing is correct for Black children, not Black adults. Black children have indeed narrowed the gap by 5.5 pts. I disagree with Jensen and Rushton on that one. I also think that Blacks narrowed the achievement gap by 1/3. They disagree.

      The review is a very good one, but it’s depressing. Notice that they completely blow off the Flynn Effect and essentially say that it’s not a real IQ rise. Needless to say, I disagree with that.

      There hereditarians have a lot of good evidence on their side. Nisbett’s book is not that good. He’s the best of the environmentalists, and his arguments are not that great.

  20. Uncle Milton

    To Jul:
    you proceed to defend the notion of racism on this speculative tool as your crutch

    So you choose a straw man as you opening salvo.. ?
    Like or not the data collected for decades and heavily analyzed points consistently to (North East) Asian out performance and Black (and to a lesser degree Latino) under performance vis a’ vis Whites. Even if it was entirely environmental … I find it interesting that people of Chinese, Korean, and Japanese decent are out pacing Whites on tests.. (as you say..) that are designed by Whites.

    IQ tests were most certainly used to support Jewish and Italian inferiority so go back to your history, UncleMilton.

    Neither your previous post nor my rebuttal mention Italians only Jews. Let’s see what you link said about Jews.

    “Jews were an unusually successful group — something that needs to be kept in mind in assessing the achievements of the second generation in the last wave, since the “Jewish success story” so often stands out in memories and accounts of the past. ”

    So there is acknowledgment even in your article that Jews were often successful as immigrants. Yeah I know that there were some incidents where IQ testing was abused. (Basically tests were given in English to Jewish immigrants who only knew Russian and/or Yiddish.. duh.. they didn’t do well…) But since nonsense was called out fairly quickly to be BS by the test makers. (even the original was cited by White Supremacists..) But really within academic circles it was well known by WWI that Jews tended to out perform. Revisit the links I posted.. or at least read them.

    Regarding Jews and humility….. well half of my family is Jewish and ummm…. I’ll pass on that one.

    • Julie

      UncleMilton,
      Strawman, Milton? LOL.

      Coming from you that’s deliciously humorous as I was pointing out your behavior. LOL.

      The point that you are missing is that self-serving racism is still racism; reaching premature racist positions is not a sign of intelligence but of the other frailty IMO.
      I see where you are coming from now as you admit that you are a Jew: This is an ego thing with you on Jewish superiority. Well, if you need to feel superior, go for it but you are proving that you are insecure to need this fix so much.

      Food for thought, Milton..there are different types of intelligence. Selfish intelligence vs selfless intelligence and the ability to manipulate or be ruthless does not equal true intelligence IMO.
      In the short term, I concede that it can be a good survival tool but long term it is self-defeating as I remeber JFK’s words on the equality of each man spells equality of all men.

      I think in the long run, manipulation is self-defeating and limiting for the fact that the greater number of people that are united the far greater human achievements the human race can achieve exponentially for all people. I find it unintelligent and undesirable that all people have access to reach their potential over a small group of people selfishly depleting enormous amounts of resources for themselves.
      What almost happened in Nazi Germany is a good example of how the short term manipulative tactic can evoke evil consequences from evil people.

      Jews were persecuted, hated and shunned and fought back =good for them but to believe that the fact that someone else taught you how to make sugar and now you have improved the production somehow makes you superior is a fallacy.
      In other words being good at replicating, manipulating situations or cunning does not equal superiority, Milton). It only makes you cunning not superior. You are treading dangerously close to Hitlerian sentiment on that also, Milton.
      On Jews and Italian immigrants lower IQ tests scores and brain size, I was also addressing the fact that the brain sizes of immigrating Jews and Italians and their children’s were purported to be smaller than Whites too in the early 1900’s. Later on it was revealed that (If true), this was due to diet and economic factors not race or genetics.
      More food for thought, Milton..Jews chose not to have their own country for so long, why was that? Was that a sign of superiority, Milton? Instead, Jews chose to inhabit every human civilization and learn their ideas thus (IMO) they benefited indirectly from the knowledge of every single culture on Earth? Could this be a factor of sorts?

      Other groups, on the other hand, did not start to mingle and assimilate into other societies until very recently, Jews have done this forever!!
      Is there a possible clue here as to the key of this supposed superiority of the wandering Jewish people?
      There are even Jews in Africa and the Caribbean islands so in that light, I do think supposed Jewish superiority needs to be put into perspective, especially concerning Ashkenazi VS Sephardic Jews and reasons for that chiasm. These factors on IQ tests should be studied to end these ego feeding frenzies..in the end, the data will prove IMO that all men are created equal but society and economic make them appear to be unequal.

      My 2 cents, I know but it is mine. LOL

  21. Uncle Milton

    Correction:

    (even the original was cited by White Supremacists..)

    should read as

    (even though the original was cited by White Supremacists..)

  22. Julie

    UncleMilton,

    I would have expected better from a Jewish person who recalls that the shoe was on the other foot not so long ago. You should recall how desperately other groups tried for so long to pass off Jews as inferior –they did this out of hate, bitterness or just human arrogance and selfishness.

    ‘Tis a shame that you should now fall victim to that type of arrogance yourself, Milton. Very sad.

    In your history, the Jews got fed up with being treated as lesser than for centuries..the Jews eventually learned to fight fire with fire “intelligently” since their numbers were smaller..Jews began to teach their children (Done overwhelmingly at temple) that educating themselves and being successful was key for respect and we have the proof in the pudding.
    None of it is per chance Milton, all human situations are by design due to events in history –to deny this is folly, Milton.
    It is embarrassing Milton that you should embrace the very same “hateful, racist” practices (against the recently traumatized group) as was done to your own group for many centuries. For shame, Milton.
    Shame on you, Milton..I am embarrassed for you being a member of the enlightened, a Jewish person supporting the pseudo-scientific racism of megalomaniacs like Murray and Rushton who are simply Hitler’s beliefs part II.
    Shame on you, Milton but most Jews are humble even if many Jews were raised to be aggressive in business!!
    Honestly Milton, humbly speaking all truly intelligent people of valor recognize that this IQ test superiority canard is just a mirage for something else.
    I am not saying that some people may not be proven to be superior to others, in the future but it will be based on measurable genetics testing not IQ tests!!!! LOL.

    IQ tests are not the tool to prove intelligence or superiority for now; especially not the way they are done currently, administered between socially unequal groups and their children???? LOL.
    One solution could be to have: Whites, Blacks, Jews, Asians, Sub Saharans, Latinos, Arabs would be taken from scratch at birth, raised in the same environment with equal nutrition, cultural exposure, educational and economic access, through at least 2 generations then tested.
    After two (2) such blocks of tests (Through 2-3 generations) , if g was consistently found to be different between races then that would be unequivocal proof. There would not be room for any speculation nor any possible form of credible argument from anyone at that point –because the experiment would have ensured equality of all possible variables from beginning to end.
    That is the only way, Milton otherwise all you have (pure and simple, Milton) is the “inferior” pseudo-science of some insecure, arrogant, narcissistic, unapologetic racists kissing their own posteriors, Milton.
    Why does this type of racist narcissism denote inferiority, Milton? I think you know why, Milton. It screams inferiority because of the very premature conclusion..behaving in a premature manner DOES NOT equal intelligence, now does it, Milton?
    That is the fact at this point.

    I forgot to mention that the data would need to have the ability to be repeated and verifiable.
    Human beings being what we are (Selfish and egotistical) means that we would need scientists of other racial groups working together or having access to the data) to ensure that the integrity of the experiment was preserved. We would need to have the security of knowing that the data was unbiased.

    You know the famous old European saying don’t you, Milton? “We always need somebody smaller than ourselves” hence the breeding ground for racism, prejudice and most of the societal ills of humanity!!

  23. Uncle Milton

    megalomaniacs like Murray ….. who are simply Hitler’s beliefs part II.

    I don’t know Rushton’s thoughts on Jews… I do know that Murray has come and said that he wishes he was Jewish. Murray’s coauthor on the Bell Curve was Richard J. Herrnstein, an observant Jew. Hardly fodder for Hitler II. Also Murray has indicated to some degree, he believes that Asians are intellectually superior (although he didn’t use the word…) to Whites, in addition he was married to and had children with an Asian woman. Are his ideas correct..? Perhaps not…. but I would like to see rebuttals to his ideas and not attacks on him by linking him Nazis. (which seems rather far-fetched..)

    As for the rest of your post is basically guilt by association. When someone does that it makes me believe that they little to go on. Rob’s nuanced argument is much more persuasive and has given me much food for thought, that said I think that when one totally dismisses the possibility that intelligence is genetically passed on, one is verging towards dogma.

    As for Jews beliefs about intellectual out performance based upon genes (and how this affects Ashkenazim..) I can say there is a quiet belief among many Jews that academic out performance for European Jews has a decided genetic component.

  24. Uncle Milton

    To Julie:

    Strawman, Milton? LOL.
    Coming from you that’s deliciously humorous as I was pointing out your behavior.

    No, you falsely associated me with certain ideas I never espoused and then attacked those ideas. A classic straw man.

    I’m sorry there are no inferior people and if there are the results may surprise the pretenders to the so-called throne of superiority..

    So when I state that South and East Asians outpace Whites on IQ and standardized tests (not only in the US but in Great Britain) that is a statement of White superiority..? Ummm.

    Selfish intelligence vs selfless intelligence and the ability to manipulate or be ruthless does not equal true intelligence..

    I’ll note with some irony that your statement is very close to what the Nazis believed about Jews Nazis didn’t believe Jews were stupid, they believed that Jews had a manipulative form of intelligence. (This is still echoed today on White Supremacist boards…)

    If you had actually read the Bell Curve, you’d know that by their figures, 12.5% of Black Americans are smarter than 50% of the White Americans. (Whether one endorses that idea or not.. I simply illustrating what their argument is which seems to get lost in the shuffle…) So stating Whites are smart and Blacks are dumb is not in agreement with such IQ research. As I have already noted (and Rob many times…) Asians outpace Whites on most standardized tests. Second generation Asians also have higher incomes on average that White Americans. There are subgroups in various cultures which tend to outpace the broader culture – Parsis in India, Jews in Europe and the US, Chinese in Southeast Asia. Possibly some of the African tribes (I have heard of a few but I can not remember the names..)

    Running away from the idea that there is a strong genetic component to intelligence seems like dogma, although I think we should not be wed to the idea that intelligence is heavily genetic.

    • Julie

      Milton,
      Your tactic it seems is “accuse others of what you do, heh Milton”? I pointed out that your quick penchant for accepting controversial data as fact (About the inferiority of what you are not so you can feel superior by comparison to others thereby boosting your ego at the expense of others) was the true canard. Instead of addressing that counter argument, you scream “strawman argument”?? LOL.
      How inappropriate and ironic from you, Milton.

      Where is that high Jewish, superior IQ when you need it, huh Milton?
      Milton, please learn to express yourself; especially a superior, high IQ being of superior stock such as yourself..Come on, back up your arguments with examples and facts..explain what I accused of incorrectly, Milton? This shouldn’t be too hard for a superior, high IQ individual like yourself, right, Milton? Where’s that superiority when you need it, huh Milton? That is no straw man, Milton, just the facts, sir. All one needs to do is read your post and the proof is in the pudding!!

      The flaw with accepting the racist assertion of superiority based on IQ tests are numerous. First off, the test’s own creator affirmed that IQ tests did not measure true intelligence but superficial traits. Then the loose variables involve DO NOT permit for accuracy of any type of core scientific comparison.

      Then there is no proof at this stage that race exists (Beyond the slavers’ selfish speculation) and if it does that one is superior to the other so you want to talk strawman, canards, self-serving, narcissistic speculation look towards any racist and you have those elements in spades (No pun), LOL!!
      The reality is that IQ tests can’t prove anything except that one group has greater access to wealth, education and is exposed to different cultural pressures and to deny this and become an arrogant narcissistic, megalomaniac pedant is not a pretty sight, Milton. In fact it spells the opposite which is how gullible and conceited you are i.e. “inferior.”
      None of these are pretty, the worst is that they go against all tenets of true intelligence: Look up Socrates, Milton. Maybe you’ll get it!!
      Race has not been proven, in fact it has been denied by the greatest scientific organizations like http://www.aaa.net so don’t project to me on strawman, Milton.
      Do you even get it? As for the rest, feeding your ego about IQ tests is meaningless. Jews are as they are by design as are all people because of the specific circumstances in their history.
      Geographical differences are supported by scientific research but not the racial differences at this time.
      IMO you race believers/dividers are nothing but humanity dividers/haters and equality deniers!!
      I don’t know, it could be me but that just DOES NOT seem to spell superiority, heh Milton?
      By the passion you show at answering these posts, one thing is certain, maintaining superiority via IQ tests is very important to you which is cool, if egotism is your thing. The reality is this discussion is meaningless as IQ tests measure what we already knew it did: The wealthier have access to better education, the more educated achieve greater success, so what? We already know that which is why parents in the affluent sectors teach love of education to their progeny. Again I ask, what educated person does not know this? So, what?
      Why do we need an IQ test to tell us this?
      This was not the intented purpose of IQ tests as stated by its creator.
      Once again, man corrupts a good idea with his ego.
      I weep for humanity when racists like you try to pollute science with your self-serving, knee jerk pseudo-science trash.

    • Julie *Edited to add*

      Milton,
      You have become a broken record of irony, Milton. More so laughable since your lame accusations of ad hominem attacks are closest to actual ad hominem attacks, not to mention hyper drama queen-esque. LOL
      Give it a rest, Milton. “Nobody’s” buying it –at least I’m not!!
      Your claim to fame of ethnic intellectual superiority is a form of ad hominem in itself, loosely speaking of course Milton so, please.
      Milton, you can’t win this argument because it’s morally flawed. You can’t claim superiority while you are claiming to be mentally superior to other people — your argument’s weakness is compounded by the fact that you ironically use inconclusive means such as IQ tests to reach that illogical conclusion. LOL.
      Poor Milton, where is that ethnic superiority when you really need it? Is this another ad hominem attack against you, Milton? No, I’m stating my opinion of you, Milton, based on your arguments.
      You would think one from the superior group would recognize the difference between “opinion” and ad hominem attacks?
      Do you know what a ad hominem attack is, Milton? LOL.
      You claimed mental superiority because some people study harder to take tests and/or have better exposure to good study methods. Before you’re stumped, let me explain that this previous comment is my conclusion of your point as I read between the lines of your post, Milton, just so you know. It seems everything has to be spelled out to you, Milton or you get stuck.
      For ex, I have always passed every test I have ever taken in school and elsewhere with flying colors, whether I studied hard or not. Am I sufficiently arrogant to believe this is due to some mental superiority to my peers or do I believe that this is due to my parents teaching me great respect and love for intellectual activities? I love to read and study too, Milton. Does that make me superior, Milton or just lucky to have had parents who were educated and financially secure and taught me a love for science and a good education? Unlike you, Milton I believe the latter.
      I believe that we all have the same opportunities, external factors in society have the last word IMO.
      For instance, I put some effort into my studies at the outset; therefore, I have a stronger foundation by comparison to others who were possibly goofing off or attending poor public schools..so the rest is easy!! LOL.

      Poor Milton, to paraphrase Socrates: Intelligence means recognizing that we know very little for certain..that said, my point is that racial superiority may be proven someday but IQ tests will not be the means for now..at the moment it’s useless in that aspect, in view of the educational disparities between “racial” groups. To ignore that obvious reality actually shows an intellectually challenged mindset IMO..if anything proves racial/ethnic superiority it will be pure, OBJECTIVE, scientific data as in the study of the genes themselves. The data to be collected objectively by an integrated team of scientists. Genes are not biased, they just are!!

      Disclaimer: Personally, I believe that additional, (objectively gathered) scientific data will maintain that race does not exist as stated by http://www.aaa.net but I must be consistent and respect Socrates’ wisdom and realize that I could also be wrong!!

  25. James Ray

    “Possibly some of the African tribes [outpace others]”

    In Nigeria, the Igbo are the business class.

    In Rwanda, the urban and martial Tutsi dominate the farming Hutus. In fact, the Tutsi dominate central Africa, and much of the mineral wealth gets funnelled towards them. Even Joseph Kabila, president of Congo, is a Tutsi. The Tutsis are Nilotics, as are the Luo – Obama’s tribe.

  26. Uncle Milton

    To Julie,

    About the inferiority of what you are not so you can feel superior by comparison to others thereby boosting your ego at the expense of others..

    In fact it spells the opposite which is how gullible and conceited you are i.e. “inferior.”

    So you shift from a strawman argument to ad homien. The inferiority of what I am…? Feeling superior….? Are you reading someone else’s posts thinking they are mine…? It’s not about what my intellectual capabilities are or are not.. it’s about what the data shows for broad based self identified population groups based upon ethnic and racial lines. Also I am curious why you think I am trying to make myself feel superior by pointing out the Northeast Asians outpace Whites on standardized and IQ tests..? (A statement I have made several times but which you have ignored, since it doesn’t fit in with your ad homiem)

    It’s pretty care that you don’t want to debate but wish to call names with someone who does not agree with your philosophy.

    As for money and IQ well you have the chicken and egg issue.. which came first the intelligence or the money.. they are somewhat linked. That said Northeast Asians in the US in the lowest quarter of income outpace Black Americans in the highest quarter of income. So money and IQ are not always intrinsically linked.

    In regards to Socrates, I have read Plato’s dialogues, what precisely do you think I need to revisit..?

    Rob (and people like Thomas Sowell and Flynn…) have come up with interesting ideas about intelligence versus race and ethnicity. As I said it’s a fluid subject and I am not wed to any idea but dismissing the possibility of intelligence linked to genetics seems foolish. I suppose however you’ll come back with some name calling, this works in the first grade and among the converted but not with me. Have a nice day.

    • Uncle Milton

      Correction “ad homien” should read “ad hominem”

    • tulio

      Many people feel that if you say one group is collectively less intelligent than another, that is akin to saying that group is “inferior”. After thinking about it though, I’m not sure why someone being of less intelligence makes them inferior. No matter how smart you are, there is always someone smarter. Do you feel that you are inferior or less human than that person? I don’t. Do white Gentiles walk around with an inferiority complex to Jews? Or feel that they are inferior? I’ve never seen it. Why does being smarter make someone superior, per se? We don’t think that on an individual level, so why on a racial level? It just means they’re better at abstract reasoning on average. It doesn’t say whether you have common sense, whether you’re a nice person, whether you’re a hard worker, whether you are a loyal friend, whether you are sociable, whether you obey the law or gazillion other qualities we judge people on. Doesn’t say anything about them having superior humanity.

    • alpha unit

      Thanks, tulio, for pointing that out!

    • Julie

      Milton,
      You have become a broken record of irony, Milton. More so laughable since your accusation of ad hominem attacks are closest to actual ad hominem attacks not to mention hyper drama queen-esque. LOL
      Give it a rest, Milton. “Nobody’s” buying it –at least I’m not!!
      Your claim to fame of ethnic intellectual superiority is a form of ad hominem in itself, loosely speaking of course so, please.
      Milton, you can’t win this argument because it’s morally flawed. You can’t claim superiority while you are claiming to be mentally superior to other people. LOL.

      Poor Milton, where is that ethnic superiority when you really need it? Is this a ad hominem attack? No, I’m stating my opinion of you, Milton, based on your arguments.
      You would think one from the superior group would recognize the difference between “opinion” and ad hominem attacks?
      Do you know what a ad hominem attack is, Milton? LOL.

      You claimed mental superiority because some people study hard to take tests.
      I have always passed every test I have ever taken in school whether I studied hard or not. Am I sufficiently arrogant to believe this is due to some mental superior to my peers or do I believe that this is due to my parents teaching me great respect and love for intellectual activities? I love to read and study too? Does that make me superior or lucky to have had parents’ who were educated? Unlike you, Milton I believe the latter.
      I believe that we all have the same opportunities, external factors in society have the lat word IMO.

      For instance, I put some effort into my studies at the outset; therefore, I have a strong foundation..so the rest is easy!! LOL.

    • Julie_M

      Tulio,
      You are so innocent.
      Do you really believe that Milton is here so passionately arguing (As a Jew) about so-called Jewish superiority because it’s NOT important to him and he has nothing to gain from this? LOL.

      Milton needs to believe/feel that he is superior to other people, IMO due to some insecurity, etc).
      As for your claim that IQ superiority does not mean actual superiority, you could be right but that is not the point being argued. My point is that the tests are flawed at this point when it comes to assessing racial differences accurately. This is due to obvious recent historical, unequal circumstances. It has only been 50 years since civil rights were implemented for all people.
      Tulio, those arguing for racism argue this passionately about this subject. They really want to believe racial superiority will make their life richer IMO.
      Why do you think racists make a big deal about each IQ test that comes out? Yes, Tulio, they thrive on that false high of “superiority.”
      In essence, I disagree with you fundamentally on the issue. I agree with the test’s creator that IQ tests results mean nothing about inherent intellectual ability itself.
      These tests mean very little at the moment Tulio as these tests (Misguidedly I feel) have not adjusted for the serious inequalities between groups due to climate, nutrition, finances, health, emotional factors and other variables.
      Comparing IQ tests of racial groups at this point is a joke, the people attempting this IMO are seriously intellectually limited IMO.

      That is just my 2 cents.
      It is pure, self-serving ego stroking, Tulio..no more no less.

    • Julie, I’m not sure of your race. Perhaps you are Black? Anyway, tulio is a regular commenter here and Alpha Unit is a regular columnist on the site. Both are pro-Black Black people. Just so you know where they are coming from.

    • ggg

      “The reality is that IQ tests can’t prove anything except that one group has greater access to wealth,”

      Adjusting for wealth does not significantly shrink the racial IQ gap. The children of wealthy blacks perform worse than the children of poor whites.

      This is the typical trotting out of old saws that have been long since debunked by the science.

    • ggg

      “Is this a ad hominem attack? No, I’m stating my opinion of you,”

      Is this a sentence I’m typing? No, it’s just a serious of words structured to communicate an idea.

  27. Pingback: Does a Higher IQ Make You Superior? « Robert Lindsay

  28. Uncle Milton

    To Julie:

    Tulio, You are so innocent.
    Do you really believe that Milton is here so passionately arguing <b.(As a Jew) about so-called Jewish superiority because it’s NOT important to him and he has nothing to gain from this? LOL.,/i>

    .
    Julie by several different definitions, I am not a Jew. I never said I was a Jew , here is what I actually said was “half of my family is Jewish…” In my particular case, the paternal half and add to that my dad converted away from his (very nominal) Jewish beliefs before he married my Gentile Episcopal mother.

    As for pushing “Jewish superiority” my Jewish relatives accept as their relative but not really as a Jew but it’s not really discussed. I’ve been at many gatherings where the majority is Jewish hence I would say I have been around Jewish culture but I would not be eligible to emigrate to Israel (not that I care..) and some Jews have flat out told me to face that I not a Jew when I mention that my mother is Gentile. This attitude has faded since I was a kid and I know of children now who have a Jewish father and a Gentile mother but are being raised as and accepted as Jews but that was not the case for me.

  29. Uncle Milton

    To Julie:

    Tulio, You are so innocent.
    Do you really believe that Milton is here so passionately arguing .(As a Jew) about so-called Jewish superiority because it’s NOT important to him and he has nothing to gain from this? LOL.,

    .
    Julie by several different definitions, I am not a Jew. I never said I was a Jew , here is what I actually said was “half of my family is Jewish…” In my particular case, the paternal half and add to that my dad converted away from his (very nominal) Jewish beliefs before he married my Gentile Episcopal mother.

    As for pushing “Jewish superiority” my Jewish relatives accept as their relative but not really as a Jew but it’s not really discussed. I’ve been at many gatherings where the majority is Jewish hence I would say I have been around Jewish culture but I would not be eligible to emigrate to Israel (not that I care..) and some Jews have flat out told me to face that I not a Jew when I mention that my mother is Gentile. This attitude has faded since I was a kid and I know of children now who have a Jewish father and a Gentile mother but are being raised as and accepted as Jews but that was not the case for me.

    • Julie

      UncleMilton,
      Thank you for that explanation, Milton.
      I stand corrected on you being Jewish then but I still find suspect the fact that you push for racial superiority on such tenuous evidence as IQ tests.
      I explained at length the many reasons that IQ tests cannot yield conclusive evidence at this time IMO.
      Like I said, other factors (Such as objective genetic research may prove biological racism has merit) but using IQ tests as proof are a joke IMO.

      I do not mean to come across as offensive or disrespectful towards you just because you are a racist, Milton..I realize that racists are people too, Milton. Racists can’t help feeling racist and insecure IMO so I still respect your right to your opinion strangely enough.
      I do concede that I can be somewhat intolerant towards arrogant narcissists but seriously Milton, what good can come out the conquering group proclaiming itself mentally superior to the already discriminated groups it exploited and abused for centuries? On a moral note, Why continue the horror? Why should any decent person condone racists adding insult to injury (based on speculative data) to these already traumatized people, Milton? Why continue the exploitation and escalate it to emotional/intellectual rape now? A little compassion and sensitivity can go a long way, Milton, don’t you agree?

      It’s self-serving nonsense and no intelligent person falls for that hype, come on, Milton?

      Shouldn’t this hype be something to be ashamed of instead, Milton? We intuitively know the truth, right, Milton?
      We do better on IQ tests because we’re richer and were not enslaved and suspiciously the descendants of those who were enslaved and had lesser opportunities, all around, are doing poorly academically?? Come on?? Doesn’t 2+ 2 add up to 4 anymore, Milton?
      The whole IQ tests superiority (Between racial groups) argument is so contrary to anything that can be derived from intelligent, logical thought processes that I can’t help but to be disgusted by the irony of the whole thing!!

      I disagree with your racist beliefs but I will stop the sarcasm, Milton.

      I stand by my post to tulio however, Milton. There is some type racist payoff for you even if you aren’t 100% Jewish. You probably identify with the Jewish culture more. I do know/believe that the average Jewish person tends to be humble even though Jews tend to be very well educated and successful so this is you being arrogant not any other Jewish people who probably has never heard of you, Milton!!
      I am not trying to be rude, Milton but factual. Your posts are racially arrogant. You admit that right?

  30. Uncle Milton

    Julie

    Your claim to fame of ethnic intellectual superiority ..

    I never claimed ethnic superiority Julie.. what particular comments of mine led you to believe this..?

    I’ll ask this question again (since you have repeatedly avoided it..), how is it that by stating that on average Northeast and South Asians in the US outperform Whites on standardized tests (and for that matter with grades in school even more so..) an expression of White superiority? Or that on average second generation Northeast Asians and first generation South Asians have higher income than Whites?

  31. Uncle Milton

    To Julie,

    Ok, our posts crossed.. the post above this one is a bit aggressive. I’ll simmer down.

    I do not mean to come across as offensive or disrespectful towards you just because you are a racist, Milton..

    What statement from me, in your mind, defines me as a racist..? Seriously.

    I am not trying to be rude, Milton but factual. Your posts are racially arrogant. You admit that right?

    Well, in short, no. I have said on this thread on others that Asians (in the US and Britain) academically outperform Whites. My workplace is now roughly 60%, these guys are simply not slouches. One can make the plausible argument is the staff at my company towards Asians because of the prevalence of the H1B visas… but even our interns, which were born or raised in the are roughly 75% Asian. Walk into almost any University in the US and look at the students in engineering, mathematics, physics, or the computer science departments. Asians are now over represented. Whites are going for the softer fields like Business, Literature, etc. That’s certainly not a statement of “White superiority”. Is it a statement of Asian superiority..? I don’t think so… I just think it’s a reflection of reality on the ground.

  32. Uncle Milton

    To Julie,

    Ok, our posts crossed.. the post above this one is a bit aggressive. I’ll simmer down.

    I do not mean to come across as offensive or disrespectful towards you just because you are a racist, Milton..

    What statement from me, in your mind, defines me as a racist..? Seriously.

    I am not trying to be rude, Milton but factual. Your posts are racially arrogant. You admit that right?

    Well, in short, no. I have said on this thread on others that Asians (in the US and Britain) academically outperform Whites. My workplace is now roughly 60%, these guys are simply not slouches. One can make an argument that the staff at my company is heavily Asian because of the prevalence of the H1B visas… but even our interns, which were born or raised in the United States, are roughly 75% Asian. Walk into almost any University in the North America and look at the students in engineering, mathematics, physics, or the computer science departments. Asians are now heavily over represented. Whites are going for the softer fields like Business, Literature, etc. That’s certainly not a statement of “White superiority”. Is it a statement of Asian superiority..? I don’t think so… I just think it’s a reflection of reality on the ground.

  33. Shake

    Hold on a second…the average IQ of asians is 107?

    Holy hell, mines is 112 (actual 8 hour test).

    I mean, I’m hispanic; at most I have Spaniard in me (the colonization of South America). Meaning that I have some white in me, yet I’m higher than the average asian?

    FUCK YEAR….but how? I know the individual can be vastly different from the average, but I still don’t understand how.

    I wasn’t born rich, my parents are immigrants. I grew up in East NY, and even dropped out for a while due to social anxiety issues.

    Ah well

    • Law of averages my friend. You lucked out. Good job. A lot of Hispanics seem to be quite intelligent to me. They’re a Hell of a lot smarter than you might think. They aren’t dumb at all.

  34. KMT

    this entire site is bullshyt
    LOL
    and the black ppl in N america skulls differ
    bcuz the blacks in america are not the same as the blacks N certian parts of afrika they are more close to the eastern ppl of afrika that is why the native blacks sold them into slavery(or indentured servitude as they thought).
    plz respond
    even tho i wont check this bullshyt site again
    LOL

    • It’s ok Black man. You won’t be able to come back if you want to. You’re banned. Bye.

      • 1
        2


        I think you are retarded. By the way, I’m in Mensa. I have an IQ in the top 2% of society (148 on the Cattell III B) and my father has an IQ of 154, top 1% of society. I am not even represented within your statistical charts or references.

        These references that you have provided clearly contradict your eugenic implications regarding ethnicity, skull size, and intelligence quotient.

        Also, its actually the inverse of your article regarding intelligence and cranial size, due to the fact that the larger the skull, the greater time it takes to process the information. Therefore, basing the idea upon this theory; with IQ tests being timed exams there is an inverse effect upon the IQ/ cranial size relationship.

        If c increases, then p increases, and if p increases then i decreases.

        Therefore:
        ((c.Increase) && (p.Increase)) -> (i.Decrease)

        Let Intelligence Quotient = i
        Let Processing Time = p
        Let Cranial Size = c

        A great logical theory has also just been proposed, please try and solve it:
        i > u

        • 1 “Secular Rise in Black IQ and Head Size: Evidence For a Eugenic Effect”

          2 “Broadly speaking, that used to be the case, but IQ’s of Black children have always been higher.”

          Go on, ban me… retard. Oh and by the way I am white. You will find ironically though, that the inverse of the formula for IQ craniometry may not have supportive findings due to Microcephaly. Due to the fact that the human brain in its average current form is most efficient for the processing of information.
          Although that it is perfectly possible (theoretically) for a smaller sized brain to achieve faster processing speeds, if it is more efficient.

          Btw, I LoL @ your liberal, lower intelligence, reverse self hating racism.

  35. In the old days before C-sections, what happened if the baby’s head was too big to come out of the birth canal?

  36. I’ve looked everywere for these iq survey scores and found almost nothing. Can someone please tell me were to find them.

  37. Seth Auston

    @Robert:

    The African IQ scores you’re relying on are fraudulent. How would you do on an IQ test given in the Zulu language and steeped in Zulu culture? And what if you happened to do well regardless, and your score was thrown out as aberrant? This is what happened with the so-called IQ tests in Africa usually administered by delusional racists.

    No credible IQ tests have ever been given to Africans. If you want to gauge the intelligence of Africans, observe them in the real world. For example, Nigerians and their U.S. born children dramatically out-perform white Americans in terms of educational attainment. It’ not even close. And don’t give me that elite class nonsense either. They’re average Nigerians — a cross section of people just like the ones remaining in Nigeria.

    Immigration has never selected for intelligence. It selects for opportunity, desire and helpful family in the target country. So a dumb African is just as likely to immigrate as a smart one. And a smart one is just as likely to lack the resources or wherewithal to immigrate. Besides, with the Internet you can find millions of whip-smart Africans operating from Africa. So the “elite immigrant” myth is put to rest.

    It’s absurd to say that African-Americans (descents of slaves) are more intelligent than African blacks when nearly half of the blacks at elite U.S. universities are black African immigrants and their U.S. born children. I’m not saying they’re smarter, but they’re certainly no less smart than either U.S. blacks or U.S. whites, both of whom they dramatically out-perform.

    • Those are highly selected Africans. That’s why they do so well. Tests on Raven’s PM shows that the African IQ is probably ~73.5. The state of the continent of Africa proves that that score is probably about right.

    • Steve

      the culturally biased IQ tests argument is exaggerated and overplayed in my opinion. Anyway, ravens progressive matrices doesn’t have any cultural frame of reference whatsoever. Its completely non-cultural.

      If the average African is as smart as you say and outperforming whites due to their natural intelligence, why are black Americans doing so badly?

  38. fukaaa

    u r racist u fuk

  39. Steve

    I hope its true that whites and blacks are selecting more intelligent partners, leading to a eugenic effect. However, its been documented for a long time that people with lower IQs have more children, so I’m concerned about that. If their low IQs are genetic, there’s gonna be more and more of them.

  40. Steve

    I’m officially agnostic on the reason for the black-white IQ gap but it looks quite possible to me that it is environmental. The fact that the score is lower by adulthood might seem to imply that genetics are holding them back in the end, after a promising start, but it could be the opposite, couldn’t it? I would expect that in early childhood, genetics would be more important and as you grow up, you have more and more exposure to a certain environment and more opportunity to be shaped by that environment. So by adulthood, the environment has taken its toll.

    That includes all sorts of things like attitudes and self image and confidence and interest in solving ‘school’ type problems, as well as how much you have developed that brain ‘muscle’ in school. I mean, are black kids getting an equal education to white kids, equal encouragement at home and are they equally dedicated and motivated and pay equal attention in school, even if its the same classroom as white kids? If the answer is no, that alone will almost certainly make an IQ difference.

    • WmarkW

      Black babies are born more physically mature than white ones, and remain so throughout childhood, reaching puberty an average 1.0-1.5 years faster. So they’re farther along the road to their ultimate mental maturity at any given age.

      The most vocal proponents of hereditarianism, like Rushton and Jared Taylor, claim that studies of transracial adoption and those with controls on socio-economic status of parents of different races, show race-only disparities. But both have been known to be sloppy with facts sometimes.

      • Steve

        If that’s the case, its fairly compelling. But I still think that being black, even if you’re brought up in a white home, could make a difference to how you see yourself, your aspirations and self-image and confidence*, how you feel about your society, how other people treat you, maybe the friends you have and the culture you are influence by.

        *I’m thinking about how I grew up in a world where all the great scientists and powerful people were white, so I assumed I could be anything I wanted to be, that all doors would be open if I did well at school. Does a black kid feel exactly like this? This could make a difference, even if its subconscious. Maybe a black kid sees all these black rappers and sports stars and that affects his aspirations and the possibilities he sees for himself.

        Also, there might be genetic personality factors, such as extroversion, that make you less suited to a school learning environment.

        Finally, maybe there are certain issues for adopted kids, especially ones that look so different from their parents, that influence how they do in life on average. I knew an adopted kid and he had massive issues about being adopted which led to behavioral problems. He lived in a great home with great parents, pillars of the community types and genuinely good people, and he ended up in jail.

        • I think you’re right. I’m black and have always had high test scores. I never did good in school but I still always went to the best in my area. I have plenty of successful blacks in my family. Actually I am pretty sure everyone in my entire family has done well and been educated. As far back as pre-civil rights. Well they did good considering the environment back then anyway. I have my college degree, work a nice job, and make a salary that puts me in the middle of the country at 26. My credit like most black people is terrible, but that’s not from lack of knowledge I just needed things while in college and expended my credit in order to survive. You could say that my family is an exception in the black community, but even then that’s not true because I know of many black families in similar situations. So environment, the people in your life that you view as successful, your family, your parents, and your schooling I feel are all things that separate people more than race. That said I hardly ever associate myself with whites outside of work so race is real to me I am just saying IQ is not an actual measure of intelligence as it’s impossible to truly test someone’s intelligence. Opportunity is the most important thing and those who embrace their opportunity big or small are the successful in this world.

    • No, environment more important early in life, genetics more important in adulthood.

    • From a psychological point of view, that makes sense. A large part of our cognitive abilities is genetically determined, which influences our ability to assimilate information and experiences.

      As an illustration, take a white and a black kid with similar IQs. The white kid has a disposition towards positive attitude while the black kid has a disposition towards negative. Even if both kids are educated and raised in the same environment, their adult IQs are going to turn out different. The black kid, because of his negative disposition might have a problem responding the positivity and positive cues while the white kid absorbs them rather well.

      Another illustration could be the nature of the IQ tests, they test a person’s intelligence on a wide area of cognitive abilities. So if person A is better at spatial abilities while not so good at verbal, while person B is fairly good in both – they might show identical IQ scores at 6 years of age, since both have been exposed to very little of either stimulation. 10 years of education down the line, the person with weak verbal abilities would start to show his predisposition in his IQ tests. Environmental factors affect IQ scores only so much.

  41. Objectivity

    All of the race realist ranting about dysgenics grows very tiresome. Humans are intelligent creatures. It’s only logical that the evolution that drove us to this point is ongoing

    But the selection that drove us to this point was probably NATURAL selection where only the smartest few could SURVIVE long enough to have children. Since the advent of agriculture, there’s been enough food for everyone, so evolution has been more about SEXUAL selection and that slightly favors low IQ classes and races because these tend to be the most promiscuous (see rushton).

    That’s why there’s probably been virtually no GENETIC increase in brain size or IQ in the last 10,000 years aside from perhaps a decrease in inbreeding. Actually the malnutrition caused by abandoning our hunter/gather diet probably shrunk brain size and IQ for thousands of years, and only with the advent of 20th century nutrition are we reverting back to our big brained selves. This explains the secular rise in brain size and IQ performance, though probably only half of the Flynn Effect is a real rise in intelligence; the rest is just that our increasingly educated society is good at faking high intelligence on IQ tests.

    And I don’t think the black-white IQ gap is narrowing. You’re only looking at a small sample of tests. Rushton & Jensen examined the totality of data and found no shrinkage in the gap, and in fact they speculate that the true black American IQ might be only 78 if samples included blacks living in parts of the inner-city so scary it’s too dangerous for psychologists to even test them.

    • Thirdeye

      [I]But the selection that drove us to this point was probably NATURAL selection where only the smartest few could SURVIVE long enough to have children. Since the advent of agriculture, there’s been enough food for everyone, so evolution has been more about SEXUAL selection and that slightly favors low IQ classes and races because these tend to be the most promiscuous (see rushton).[/I]

      Uh….no. Natural selection in primitive societies tends to be based on sexual selection by females, or their family proxies. The female is the one investing herself in carrying and nurturing offspring, so she (or her family proxy) selects a mate who is instinctively seen as capable of providing good offspring and the resources and protection needed to successfully raise said offspring. Throughout much of human history, alpha characteristics were more important than top-level intelligence as criteria for a good male mate. Intelligence gained value in mate selection with the advent of more sophisticated societies with an economic reward for high intellectual function among males. The phenomenon of underclass baby factory females represents the abandonment of reproductive strategy altogether. There may be more offspring, but the probability of the offspring being raised to successful adulthood is dramatically lower.

  42. Objectivity

    You’re correct that IQ scores are now a couple points higher because American tests switched from setting the white mean at 100, to setting the American mean at 100. However for decades it made little difference because America was an overwhelmingly white country but as demographics have changed, the white mean is now a couple points higher than the American mean.

    That’s why the convention now (started by Richard Lynn) is often to subtract 2 points when reporting IQ scores from modern American tests. By anchoring IQ scores at the white mean instead of the American mean, the genetic meaning of a given IQ score stays constant, even as American demographics shift.

  43. Pingback: The Rise of a New Black-White Race in America | Robert Lindsay

  44. Ang

    You niggers are a tribal species, and I don’t believe a word you say.

  45. isn’t there a negative correlation between fertility and IQ that goes back long time? yet more progressive features and higher IQs have been selected for?

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