Open Topic Page 1

Talk about whatever you want to here.

609 Responses to Open Topic Page 1

  2. Bay Area Guy
    October 14, 2011 at 1:46 PM

    Wow, incredible speech. A must read for every white nationalist or activist.

    Lately, I’ve been moving away from white nationalism due to its ineffectiveness and dogmatic ways, but reading this guy inspires me to gravitate towards WN again.

    http://www.thepoliticalcesspool.org/jamesedwards/2011/10/14/alex-kurtagic-masters-of-the-universe/

  3. Bay Area Guy
    October 14, 2011 at 2:18 PM

    Why I will NEVER be a leftist.

    http://www.occidentaldissent.com/2011/10/12/occupy-wall-street-white-men-last/

    Frankly, I’m beyond getting angry at the likes mentioned in that article.

    The only emotion I harbor right now is bewilderment. Bewilderment that any white man would go along with this crap.

    It’s just so hard to comprehend what goes through a Castrated Cracker’s head, and why they willingly embrace the role of ethnomasochist and subject themselves to being harangued and criticized.

    And of course, not too surprisingly, what started out as a protest against corporate plutocracy has yet again turned into a typical cultural marxist, identity fetishist movement (at least among many of the “Occupy Wall Street” types).

    As Hunter Wallace said, I have no love for Wall Street or the corporatocracy, but I’m not about to get in bed with this kooky “Occupy Wall Street” bunch of misfits either.

    • Gay State Girl
      October 14, 2011 at 6:39 PM

      I agree. People have romantic fantasies about revolutions, there is something awe inspiring about people taking to the streets. But in reality, there are more effective ways of hurting the corporations that do not involve blocking traffic and harassing ordinary people who happen to work on Wall Street, while the bankers and stock brokers, who are able to afford body guards, escape unscathed.

      However, I was disgusted with how Fox, right wing talk radio, and the Boston Herald dismissed the protesters as pinkos and rabble rousers.

  4. tulio
    October 14, 2011 at 4:12 PM

    I think you are emoting BAG, and being too quick to buy into something you aren’t sure is even true. I’ve seen a lot of videos with white males giving their opinions. I’m not sure to what extend race is taken into factor regarding who is allowed to speak at these protests. My guess is that it’s not that important and it depends on who has something important to say and maybe how well known they are. I don’t see anything even remotely racial in nature about this movement. You’re just looking for shit to get angry about. And let’s say even if there was some rule that women and minorities get to speak before white men, well if white women still get that privilege then it’s not racist. Secondly, all this shit brought down on the world by corporate corruption and gangster capitalism screwing the country and global economy is 99% white males. So maybe you should be angry at white men or do something about to get your brethren to change their ways rather than be angry at people like Cornel West.

    • Bay Area Guy
      October 14, 2011 at 4:40 PM

      @ Tulio

      Okay, fair enough.

      I do at times have the tendency to assign extra weight to certain elements of a movement or group that may not be representative of the whole, and to focus on that element too much.

      Secondly, all this shit brought down on the world by corporate corruption and gangster capitalism screwing the country and global economy is 99% white males.

      Believe me, Tulio, if I could somehow find a way to access these white corporatist thugs and give them a piece of my mind, I would. Not just for the reasons you mentioned, but they’re also the assholes who pay Tim Wise his salary.

      But that being said, only a very tiny minority of white men actually get to become corporate leaders or Wall Street bigshots. That’s why I get annoyed when people say that “whites” or “white men” run everything, when only a very small minority of white America actually wields power. Your average white guy like me certainly has no power.

      Also, even though I do consider Jews to be white (though I have trouble accepting them as white, on account that they themselves reject whiteness), let’s not forget the heavy role played by Jews in this whole affair.

      The idea that this crisis was the doing of “blue-eyed bankers” (to use the Brazilian president’s term) or WASP’s named Smith is off base.

      And before you accuse me of derailing or going off topic, I just felt that I had to mention that because people think of blue-eyed WASP’s when they hear “whites.”

      So maybe you should be angry at white men or do something about to get your brethren to change their ways rather than be angry at people like Cornel West.

      Okay, but here’s my problem with that, and this is a general problem that confronts anti-racist thought.

      On the one hand, anti-racists are frequently getting into white peoples’ faces, telling them that they all benefit from “white privilege” regardless of their personal or economic status, and frequently harangue them over whiteness issues, and if whites want to talk about class, they’re accused of being “vulgar class reductionists” (to use Uncle Tim’s term).

      And yet, at the same time, whenever white people do focus on race or express any kind of racial resentment (or just general sentiment), then they’re told to stop focusing on race/non-white people and instead go after the white elites.

      So whites cannot talk about class without mentioning race without being accused of white privilege or class reductionism, but they cannot express their racial views without being told to focus on the corporations instead.

      As for me, I’ll continue to despise the big corporations, but I’ll NEVER stop getting mad at people like Michael Eric Dyson or Tim Wise.

      • Dota
        October 14, 2011 at 11:21 PM

        BAG

        You’re going about looking at white privilege from a completely wrong angle. White privilege in the west isn’t about material benefits, that’s more Arab style tribalism. In north America White privilege is about perceptions and the power to control and shape stereotypes in ones favor. WP is very real and its effects are all too tangible to some people, but i feel that compared to Brahmanism, its a relatively benign force and so I don’t dwell on it too much. Practically speaking, most Asians (south an east) don’t pay too much attention to it since WP is not stifling in nature. It a big deal in academic circles and thats about it.

        • tulio
          October 15, 2011 at 12:31 AM

          Good post. Even whites that aren’t “privileged” per se still benefit from white privilege. It’s mostly taken for granted.

        • Dota
          October 15, 2011 at 1:05 AM

          This is because whiteness is equated with being normal in the north American context. Not that this is necessarily a bad thing since it was whites that carved 2 developed nations out of a wilderness. Lefties generally make this out to be some sort of conspiracy against minorities since whites (in their eyes) have a pathological propensity to dominate others. I’ve seen Emirati privilege and Brahmin privilege and believe me, WP is not half as bad. This is mostly due to the universalism of western ethics. We take this universalism for granted however it is absent in cultures such as the middle east and India.

        • Asian Philosopher Om Tat Sat
          November 23, 2011 at 1:40 PM

          “but i feel that compared to Brahmanism, its a relatively benign force and so I don’t dwell on it too much.”

          Is Brahmanism a religion?

  5. tulio
    October 14, 2011 at 8:32 PM

    It’s usually taken as a given that any offspring of a black and white automatically looks more black than white and that such people can never be considered white and should be considered black. But that isn’t always the case. Sometimes the offspring will look closer to white. For example, Tom Morello(guitarist from Rage Against the Machine) who has a white mother and Kenyan father looks like an Italian guy to me: http://www.exposay.com/celebrity-photos/tom-morello-iron-premiere-0cRf5s.jpg

    Derek Jeter, pitcher of the Yankees looks more Italian than black too: http://static.tvguide.com/MediaBin/Galleries/Imported/BioPix/C/bio_11/derek-jeter1.jpg . I thought maybe his father was really light skin, but when I saw the photo, his dad wasn’t light skinned at all.

    Rashida Jones, daughter of Quincy Jones looks more white than black: http://www.topnews.in/files/images/Rashida_Jones1.jpg

    I’m guessing there’s a lot more people like this than we think. How many people walking around have you assumed were or Italians or Greeks but were actually mulattos?

  6. Car Guy
    October 15, 2011 at 4:44 PM

    From what I have noticed, it depends on the race of the farther. The children generally look more white when the father is white and more black when the farther is black.

    Most of the interracial coupling are of a black male and white female, which may be why people think the offspring of such relationships end up looking more black.

    I know a halfie (white farther/light skinned Jamaican mother) who looks completely Scottish.

    • tulio
      October 15, 2011 at 6:24 PM

      I’m not sure about that. In all my examples above all but one(Soledad O’Brian) has a black father.

      • Car Guy
        October 16, 2011 at 7:00 AM

        Sure there are some biracials with black fathers that end up looking more white, but in general — speaking anecdotally — they look more black.

  7. Gay State Girl
    October 15, 2011 at 6:28 PM

    Car Guy
    Girls tend to look like their fathers, and boys like their mothers.

  8. Car Guy
    October 16, 2011 at 9:38 PM

    You had me mentally cycle through a lot of the people I know just to see if I can find a connection. I know many guys that look more like their fathers than their mothers. It seems to go either way. It does seem like the women look more like fathers, though.

  9. Gay State Girl
    October 19, 2011 at 3:18 PM

    Lindsay
    What happened to the comment policy page?

    • Robert Lindsay
      October 19, 2011 at 3:20 PM

      Too many damned comments, and I am afraid that the page is going to start crashing. And that won’t work because new commenters need to read the site.

      Please head on over to the new page called The Zionism Thread. Andy and the rest of the gang are heading over there, and you should do it too.

  10. tulio
    October 19, 2011 at 6:56 PM

    Chris Rock on affirmative action. Hilarious:

  11. Mark Walker
    October 20, 2011 at 7:58 PM

    Channeling this blog:

    BeliefNet essayist claims sightings of white racism less credible than Bigfoot:

    Actually, there is a sense in which reports of Bigfoot sightings are more credible than similar reports of White Racism. Bigfoot sightings from across time, though they tend to differ in degree as far as relatively trivial specifics are concerned—e.g. height, weight, etc.—nonetheless neatly coincide. Reports of White Racism, on the other hand, diverge wildly from one another.

    By some accounts, White Racism sounds as if it may even be something like a god, for it is said to exist independently of individual whites. When it is described as such, it is given the name “institutional racism.” White Racism is at once pervasive and just as destructive as it has ever been, according to this perspective. Indeed, it is much more destructive than it has been in the past. White Racism is embedded in the very “structures” that constitute American society. As such, it informs the worldview of the best intentioned, most magnanimous of whites.

    Read more: http://blog.beliefnet.com/attheintersectionoffaithandculture/2011/10/the-legend-of-white-racism.html#ixzz1bNhRvQhM

  12. Gay State Girl
    October 21, 2011 at 7:38 PM

    Lindsay
    Did you ban me?

  13. Gay State Girl
    October 21, 2011 at 7:41 PM

    My posts weren’t going through.

  16. johnUK
    October 30, 2011 at 5:23 PM

    Loving it!

    Germany has a Muslim problem.

  17. Bay Area Guy
    November 1, 2011 at 12:45 AM

    Gay State Girl, you might find this interesting.

    http://www.forward.com/articles/144987/#ixzz1cLFgGctQ

  18. Bay Area Guy
    November 3, 2011 at 3:23 PM

    Uh-oh, looks like good ol’ Abe Foxman is nervous again!

    http://www.adl.org/PresRele/ASUS_12/6154_12.htm

    • Gay State Girl
      November 3, 2011 at 4:43 PM

      People who are passionate about their beliefs are more likely to respond but receiving that type of survey in the mail could make a person wonder…

  19. Louie jacuzzi
    November 7, 2011 at 12:22 PM

    Had an epiphany between studying for an upcoming Information Systems test, and an Actuarial exam (two supposedly very g-loaded tasks): this process isn’t quite how iq fetishists describe it. Anyone with a college degree can attest to this. Granted there are certainly genius types who are exempt, learning for most people, can be broken into two steps, comprehension and retention. Unless I just utterly misunderstood what the Sailers and Rushtons of the world were saying, all learning according to them comes from analysis and synthesis. A premium is often (mis)placed on these particular mental capacities, as opposed to viewing them in proper context. Analysis and synthesis are subsections of comprehension, and therefore shouldn’t be pushed to the front of the line at least not in the learning process. True, some people and probably ethnic groups, have a higher capacity in this area, but, there’s a bit too much emphasis placed on said capacity at the expense of the entire retention part. It’s a shame too; because many who have the retention capacity to more than compensate for any lack of comprehension skills, are often dicouraged at the top levels of learning and drop out or give. This certain bears out in my own learning experience, but I’ll have to start my own blog to flesh that out. I’ll talk more about this, but I’d like to hear responseses

  20. Tim Weir
    November 14, 2011 at 3:56 AM

    ‘Secondly, all this shit brought down on the world by corporate corruption and gangster capitalism screwing the country and global economy is 99% white males’. I’m pretty sure that this isn’t true on Wall St, and it certainly isn’t true in London. I’ve worked on trading desks where I’ve been the only Caucasian male. The last big fraud (at UBS) was perpetrated by a Nigerian. As Uncle Karl said, money is the tie of ties and the dissolver of all bonds: extreme greed recognizes no boundaries of race or gender.

  21. Dota
    November 18, 2011 at 4:35 PM

    BAG

    Have you read this? If so, what do you make of it?

    http://holywar.org/jewishtr/open.htm

    • Gay State Girl
      November 18, 2011 at 5:17 PM

      The part about the “cult of the shiksa” caught my attention. Though of course I would accuse shiksas of abusing jewish men.

      Who wrote this?

      • Dota
        November 18, 2011 at 6:04 PM

        Unknown it seems. I think the author wants to keep it that way.

        • Gay State Girl
          November 18, 2011 at 7:36 PM

          Dota
          I think it was written by a ethnic minority or muslim rather than a white nationalist because the author talks a lot about Jewish racism towards African Americans particularly among the Haredim (which is not nearly as rampant as he claims it is) rather than the degradation of “white culture” and “christian values,” although he does mention the villification of Germans as well as various other Eastern European groups.

        • Dota
          November 18, 2011 at 7:51 PM

          Read the chapters Jews and Christianity, Jews and White Slavery and The Causes of Hostility Toward Jews: A Historical Overview. This book does not appear to Islam centric but focuses more on Western/Jewish relations. That part is pretty obvious. And if the author discusses Jewish racism towards blacks and other minorities, it’s not much of a surprise as some White nationalists such as David Duke do reach out to these people. This book is the work of a westerner, that much is obvious to even the meanest intelligence.

        • Gay State Girl
          November 18, 2011 at 8:13 PM

          I skimmed through the early parts, but read the latter parts more thoroughly. I do have a hard time believing it was written by a WN. In portraying european gentiles as weak and passive, as unskilled laborers and uneducated and uninformed, and easily manipulated/misled/micromanaged by Jews, they contradict their whole claim of superiority over NAMs.

          “Unknown it seems. I think the author wants to keep it that way”
          This can be uncovered easily.

          I want NORMAN
          I want NORMAN
          I want NORMAN

        • Dota
          November 18, 2011 at 8:41 PM

          Not all WNs are white supremacists and I had hoped you would know that by now. He also talks a lot about Jewish relations with the Poles and Ukrainians. Not to mention Jewish over representation in classical music as well. This is stuff most Muslims would not know about or even care. This is the work of a Westerner for sure, whether white is debatable, but certainly a westerner.

        • Gay State Girl
          November 18, 2011 at 8:49 PM

          “This is stuff most Muslims would not know about or even care.”
          Through your rantings on Jewish intrusion into white European culture, and degradation of christian values, you’ve proven the exact opposite. Radio Islam also adopted the causes of groups that had conflicts with Jews. Of course I don’t mind at all, because I prefer traditional jewish music, than Western music composed by Jews.

        • Dota
          November 18, 2011 at 11:24 PM

          GSG

          Talk to my roommate and his circle at the local mosque and you’ll see how little they know.

  22. Tulio
    November 18, 2011 at 6:18 PM

    Interesting blog article on whites abandoning the NBA(and possibly soon the NFL).

    http://whiskeys-place.blogspot.com/2011/11/why-no-one-cares-about-nba-lockout.html

    http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2011/02/17/nba-all-star-game-white-men-cant-root.html

    Rush Limbaugh’s comments I think reflect how many whites feel about black athletes. “Look it, let me put it to you this way. The NFL all too often looks like a game between the Bloods and the Crips without any weapons. There, I said it.”

    It’s interesting how much racial psychology plays a part in so much shit in this country. Sometimes I feel like just leaving for somewhere else where there’s less racial hangups.

    • Robert Lindsay
      November 18, 2011 at 8:20 PM

      Name some countries you would go to where Blacks are treated better.

      • Tulio
        November 18, 2011 at 8:49 PM

        I don’t know yet. I’d have to do some research. It’s not so much I feel I’m being treated bad here per se. I just feel like it would be nice to live in a society that was less race-obsessed. I remember you once said that when you scratch the surface, everything in America is really about race. I agree with that. It gets tiresome. I would love nothing than to ever have to think about race again if it were possible. I’m not saying America is the most racist country in the world, but I do think that here and South Africa it has been encoded into the DNA of the culture in a way that’s unique to these places. I can even be on game forums like Roissy or some other and someone can make even one tiny reference to race and it explodes into a cyber race war. I feel like there’s a lot of shit just boiling beneath the surface.

        • Robert Lindsay
          November 18, 2011 at 8:52 PM

          Latin America? The Caribbean? Forget North Africa. Maybe Morocco or Egypt.

        • Bay Area Guy
          November 18, 2011 at 8:52 PM

          @ Tulio

          I can even be on game forums like Roissy or some other and someone can make even one tiny reference to race and it explodes into a cyber race war. I feel like there’s a lot of shit just boiling beneath the surface.

          Well, when viewed in that light, it is absolutely no surprise that Robert’s most commented upon posts have been about interracial sex.

          (that one about the white British women who dated only blacks guys provoked over 300 comments!)

          Tulio, ever consider Botswana? It’s a decently developed country, and you would be part of the black majority. In fact, as a well educated, middle/upper middle class professional American, you’d probably be afforded pretty nice treatment, in addition to not having to worry about race.

        • Robert Lindsay
          November 18, 2011 at 8:58 PM

          I am glad you agree with me. In a sense, everything in the US IS about race. Not everything per se in a mathematical sense, but you get the general idea…I am glad you agree with me. It’s an epiphany when you figure this out.

        • Gay State Girl
          November 18, 2011 at 8:59 PM

          Gay Area Guy
          In Botswana, there is much conflict between the Tsawanas and Bushmen. Bushmen were forced to leave their land after the government located diamond mines.

        • Tulio
          November 18, 2011 at 9:15 PM

          I don’t know a ton about Botswana. I’m not buying a one-way ticket anywhere just yet. I’d have to do a lot of research about places. I do think there’s a good chance I’ll become an expat at some point in the future. Brazil is a place I have visited and that I like a lot, so something to consider.

        • Bay Area Guy
          November 18, 2011 at 9:23 PM

          Brazil is a place I have visited and that I like a lot, so something to consider.

          Well, you do realize that Brazil is very racist country, albeit in its own unique way that’s different from the U.S.?

        • Tulio
          November 18, 2011 at 9:23 PM

          …and yes, you’re right BAG, any post on any forum that has anything to do with black guys banging white girls will explode with comments. If it was about Asian guys and white girls, you might see 1/10th the response. It’s like a lynch mob mentality.

        • An Unmarried Man
          November 18, 2011 at 9:31 PM

          Race is the most obvious delineation, so of course we resort to it. I’m short and I get typecast all the time for it. People are simple and visual.

        • Tulio
          November 18, 2011 at 9:31 PM

          I’m aware of the racial situation in Brazil. I have a good online friend I talk to daily, an Afro-Brazilian girl in Sao Paulo. We talk about this stuff all the time. But it’s a lot different. I think there, it’s more a colorism thing as races there are more mixed and it’s hard to tell who’s who anyway unless you’re deep in the south where everyone is white. I don’t get the sense that people there are as consumed with it as they are here. Class is more of an issue, or at least as much as one. A black guy with money from America pretty much gets the red carpet treatment. Plus there is no KKK or skinheads or any of that sort of aggressive racism. I think there’s the general sense that it’s better to be whiter, but if you have money, you’re as good as the whites. Sure not perfect either, but not the same as here.

          Plus if I ever wanted to get married, Brazilian women are way better than American women.

        • Bay Area Guy
          November 19, 2011 at 11:24 AM

          If it was about Asian guys and white girls, you might see 1/10th the response.

          Agreed.

          Interestingly enough though, there’s an intense discussion on a white nationalist website about white male and Asian female relationships.

          (which I’ve linked to in the watercooler)

          It’s funny, because when talking about interracial sex, white nationalists almost exclusively focus on black men and white women.

          This is the only example I can think of where they’ve tackled the whole WM/AF issue.

    • Robert Lindsay
      November 18, 2011 at 8:22 PM

      On SBPDL they are having a lot of discussions on the NBA lockout. The articles and comments have an overt racial component. I think it’s ridiculous. Why racialize something like that?

    • Bay Area Guy
      November 18, 2011 at 8:50 PM

      Well, whenever you have racial diversity, you have racial hang-ups/tensions.

      This is true whether we’re talking about the U.S, Brazil, Israel, Malaysia, you name it.

      Those hang-ups just take different forms. So if you want to avoid racial hang-ups, I would suggest moving to a homogenous country where no one thinks or cares about race.

      • Tulio
        November 18, 2011 at 9:04 PM

        You may have it, but it also varies widely in intensity. Like for example when I talk to blacks in the UK, I don’t get the sense that there’s as much black-white tension in the UK as there is in the US. Yeah, there’s issues, but the intensity can vary. It can even vary a lot within one country such as the Bay Area versus Gulf Coast Mississippi.

        As for rooting for players that look like them, this is silly. I’m not a big sports guy myself so I have no favorite teams or anything, but I do watch the world cup and cheer whether it’s Landon Donovan making the goal or the jet black Josie Altidore. Who cares, they’re representing the USA.

    • Bay Area Guy
      November 18, 2011 at 8:56 PM

      @ Tulio

      I read those articles, and I can’t say I’m that appalled.

      We’re talking basic human psychology here. People want to be able to root for players who look like them, and to whom they can relate.

      I mean, how many blacks like hockey?

  23. Gay State Girl
    November 18, 2011 at 6:40 PM

    RELIGIOUS MERGER CREATES 900 MILLION HINJEWS

    http://www.satirewire.com/news/may02/hinjews.shtml

  24. Gay State Girl
    November 18, 2011 at 9:01 PM

    Dota
    But you’ll admit there is a great deal of contradiction and hypocrisy on the part of WN’s.

  25. Gay State Girl
    November 18, 2011 at 9:02 PM

    Lindsay
    Are you in contact with Norman at all?

  26. Gay State Girl
    November 18, 2011 at 9:22 PM

    WNs that have embraced their pre christian roots (such as the NV which has adopted to Norse paganism as their de facto religion) are overlooking the fact that European Jews and Vikings were quite friendly before Nordic nations adopted Christianity. There is even the possibility of interbreeding between the two groups. Ashkenazim probably have a significant amount of Viking ancestry, which would seem inconceivable to many Jews who like to style themselves as exotic and alien to European cultures.

  27. Gay State Girl
    November 18, 2011 at 9:32 PM

    Lindsay
    Out of curiousity, how do you feel about women who screw their ex husbands/boyfriends in alimony/childd support battles. Do you associate us with feminists or can I still be on your side?

    • Steve
      November 19, 2011 at 10:51 AM

      I’d say it depends on the circumstances. There are some circumstances where I wouldn’t have much sympathy with the man. I wouldn’t pass judgement unless I knew the details.

      I’ll say this though. Stopping or blocking a good dad from seeing his kids is one of the shittiest things you can do. Its totally wrong to do that to a man but it hurts the kids too.

      John Cleese’s divorce really pissed me off though. They were married from 1992 to 2009 and she got a 12 million pound settlement, which made her richer than him. If they both died, her kids would be richer than his. Cleese said “I got off lightly. Think what I’d have had to pay Alyce if she had contributed anything to the relationship.” That’s what makes it so bad- it was ALL his money. She claimed that she deserved it because she was used to the lifestyle or something.

      That rant has been waiting to come out for a while. If that is normal then I’d say that divorce law needs to be reviewed. The only time where I think it is fair for the woman to get half of the man’s earnings is if she gave up her career to bring up the kids and enabled him to earn his money.

      • Steve
        November 19, 2011 at 11:02 AM

        …I suppose it makes sense from the point of view that all earnings and assets gained during the course of the marriage are joint marital assets or whatever….I’m not sure what I think about that but for now I guess the guy (or gal) has to be smart enough to get a prenup if they don’t want to get screwed.

      • Gay State Girl
        November 19, 2011 at 11:30 AM

        “That rant has been waiting to come out for a while. If that is normal then I’d say that divorce law needs to be reviewed. The only time where I think it is fair for the woman to get half of the man’s earnings is if she gave up her career to bring up the kids and enabled him to earn his money.”

        I hope so. American courts are in the process of reviewing their usual practice of giving the woman the benefit of the doubt. I hope divorce laws can be reformed to protect males, as my uncle will probably divorce his greedy and demanding wife in the next few years.

  28. Bay Area Guy
    November 19, 2011 at 1:16 AM

    Hey Dota, you might find this interesting.

    http://www.thepoliticalcesspool.org/jamesedwards/2011/11/17/the-new-trophy-wives-asian-women/

    There’s an intense discussion on a white nationalist website about this whole white male/Asian female trend.

    I rarely comment on white nationalist blogs, but decided to do so in this case, because I knew that without my input, they would simply blame the trend on MSM pro-miscegenation propaganda.

    The real reasons behind this WM/AF trend are far more complex.

    As expected, I got viciously attacked and even branded a traitor. I just got reminded of why I don’t usually comment on white nationalist blogs. You don’t conform to their ideological purity, and you’re no good, even if you’re generally pro-white.

    • Robert Lindsay
      November 19, 2011 at 5:24 AM

      The WN’s are basically the worst people on Earth.

      • Bay Area Guy
        November 19, 2011 at 11:19 AM

        I still harbor some fundamental white nationalist views, but I don’t identify with the organized movement anymore, in part because of things like this.

        Go to any WN blog and look at the comments, and they often spend more time fighting each other than actually coming up with practical solutions.

        Something tells me that thread is going to get more and more intense.

        • ski
          November 19, 2011 at 7:08 PM

          Yeah I agree. The “Why Vanguardists Can’t Win” article at occidental dissent says it best (read “vanguardists” as “95+% of White Nationalists”:

          “The single most important thing to understand about vanguardists is that they are radically alienated. I’m not talking about being merely disappointed, demoralized, or disillusioned with the status quo. Vanguardists travel well beyond that stage into waters where they are ultimately transformed into aliens within their own society.

          The vanguardists express their sense of alienation in all sorts of ways. It is the impulse behind everything from their tendency to withdraw from society, their hostility to their own culture, their belief that White people must be punished for their sins, creating their own religion, dressing up in uniforms, creating their own flags, advocating alliances with despotic foreign regimes like Iran and North Korea, hiding out in a bunker, their demonization of their peers, the lavish praise they heap on Europe, etc.

          The key to understanding vanguardists is that they are aliens within their own society. They are like Jews living among the Gentiles. The vanguardists are strangers in a strange land … America.

          [...]Vanguardists are a tribe of radically alienated people going through a type of ethnogenesis.

          From the outside, it looks at first like they are creating unnecessary barriers between themselves and their target audience. From the inside, they are going through a tumultuous personal identity crisis. They are trying to draw new ethnic markers that separate “us” from “them.”

          [...]The vanguardists are not engaged in a political project in any true sense of the word. They are not trying to convince anyone to become a White Nationalist or to score victories in a political struggle. The vanguardists are radical non-conformists who are expressing their own sense of individuality in an underground sub-culture.

          Vanguardists are the beatniks, hippies, goths, or punks of the White Nationalist movement. If it is shocking to the bourgeoisie to get a tattoo or a piercing, how much more shocking is it to get a swastika tattoo or parade around main street as a uniformed Neo-Nazi?

          If vanguardist behavior comes across as “offensive,” it is because that is the intended and desired effect.

          [...]I like to think of vanguardists as “totalitarian hippies.”

          They are radical expressive individualists with an authoritarian streak. Their tendency to quarrel among themselves and their refusal to yield to authority (except when they are the dictator) is the major reason their organizations always prove so dysfunctional and short lived.”

        • Gay State Girl
          November 19, 2011 at 7:54 PM

          At least Vanguardists are consistent as they threw out Christianity as it originated in the middle east and (I thought) they have no interest in forming relationships with non whites. David Duke is more mainstream in that he still identifies as a Christian and has attempted to make alliances around the Arab world and attempted to reach out to blacks and the left wing segments of the anti war movement.

    • Dota
      November 19, 2011 at 11:26 AM

      BAG

      You should have elaborated your argument a bit more on that site. Anyhow that courtney chick threw a temper tantrum and killed the debate. The problem with the WN movement is that it not only attracts idiots, but has no clearly identifiable goals. KMAC strikes me as being more of an intellectual whereas David Duke is clearly the politician.

      • Bay Area Guy
        November 19, 2011 at 11:29 AM

        You should have elaborated your argument a bit more on that site.

        Interesting. In what way should I have elaborated?

        I think the problem with my posts was that they were long and I inevitably missed a few points. I also was subconsciously worried about provoking a vicious response (and I was right), so I might have subconsciously held back.

        • Dota
          November 19, 2011 at 11:43 AM

          Sorry, I didn’t read your follow up posts BAG. Never mind. Anyhow to address this issue I think part of the problem is that western women have a huge sense of entitlement without feeling compelled to give anything back in return. The victim mentality tends to retard a group’s morality and even makes them easier to manipulate. Take a lesson from the Tribe. With women it’s even more dangerous due to their inherent irrational behavior. From my experience, Blacks seems to be the most resistant to the effects of moral retardation since they genuinely suffered oppression whereas in the case of women and Jews, the ‘oppression’ is more imagined than real.

        • Robert Lindsay
          November 19, 2011 at 11:49 AM

          Inherent irrational behavior.

          LOL.

        • Gay State Girl
          November 19, 2011 at 11:51 AM

          “Anyhow to address this issue I think part of the problem is that western women have a huge sense of entitlement without feeling compelled to give anything back in return.”

          My heart bleeds for you.

          “Take a lesson from the Tribe.”

          Ah come on. You’re doing the German people a great disservice by comparing Jewish self victimhood to female self victimhood.

        • Dota
          November 19, 2011 at 12:01 PM

          “My heart bleeds for you.”

          Why? I’ll never have to put up with what my white friends put up with. India may suck epicly, but Indian women make excellent wives. This goes for other east Asian women too. For all the bs about them being weak (sour grapes) they still possess the strenght of character and resilliance that most white chicks can only dream of. My chinese buddy’s father makes over $100k a year but his mother still runs the household on $30k (which is what he initially made). That’s discipline. Go figure it out kid

        • Gay State Girl
          November 19, 2011 at 12:17 PM

          Dota
          I have noticed that Indian women usually adopt western feminist entitlement upon immigrating to Western countries. but you’re not planning to go back to that shithole are you?
          My mother works twice as hard as my father in her profession and at home and would probably fit your definition of a submissive Asian woman (western feminism never caught on among South African women until 1994.) My father is a big spender and does his share of complaining and mother puts up with his shit to keep mthe family together. My father is much more religious than my mother, but she went along with it and followed all of his rules until very recently. My mother was the bread winner for a while, but she never let it get to her head.

        • Gay State Girl
          November 19, 2011 at 12:27 PM

          I ain’t a kid either. I’m probably close to your age, though I look as if I’m ten years younger. But I have experienced tremendous stress (that rivals that of war veterans) that has taken a toll on my health and made me feel like a senior citizen.

        • Dota
          November 19, 2011 at 12:29 PM

          “I have noticed that Indian women usually adopt western feminist entitlement upon immigrating to Western countries. ”

          No. Their daughters do, and only a set percentage at that. Women raised in India tend to keep their values intact.

        • Gay State Girl
          November 19, 2011 at 12:51 PM

          1st or 2nd generation Indian women are not much different than white women, especially among white women raised in conservative families. Even female decendents of East Asian immigrants become very materialistic and value designer labels and the latest technology. They are simply better at manipulating their white husbands, as they tend to be-shall we say-less vocal about their desires. “Speak softly and carry a big purse.”

          What do you think of Orthodox women?

        • Dota
          November 19, 2011 at 12:57 PM

          Maybe maybe not. You underestimate the power of a good upbringing. Orthodox Jewish women? Don’t know much about them, but from what I hear, they’re decent.

        • Gay State Girl
          November 19, 2011 at 1:07 PM

          You didn’t answer my question. do you plan to go back to India and remain there permanently, or just get a child bride and return to Canada?

        • Dota
          November 19, 2011 at 1:19 PM

          I haven’t decided yet. I’ll let that child bride comment slide, your shiksa inferiority complex is showing again :) It’s always amusing watching you bristle whenever asian women are discussed.

        • Gay State Girl
          November 19, 2011 at 1:33 PM

          There are those who are good according to your standards; who do all the work around the house, yet allow their husbands make all the domestic decisions. There are those who work overtime to support 12 children while their husbands spend much of their work week in cholel.
          Orthodox women come in the Yenta variety as well, but they stick with their husbands, and there is a much lower divorce rate in the Ultra Orthodox community than the jewish world at large.

          There is a higher rate of domestic abuse in the Ultra Orthodox world than in the rest of the Jewish community, but Orthodox men don’t abandon their wives in favor of blond shiksas or china dolls or degrade them in the media. Orthodox women are generally obedient and tolerant of their husbands’ indiscretions, but it is a complete misconception to say that Orthodox women are repressed and have no ambitions of their own. Many do hold college degrees and professions. Most go into health care or education, but there are those who pursue business or high tech. You won’t see an ultra orthodox woman as a CEO of a fortune 500 company or a high powered lawyer. Some Orthodox women help their husbands or male relatives in small businesses, and are actively involved in decision making processes. Others start own online businesses from their homes. I am skeptical of those who champion the plight of Orthodox women, as I feel they do not like the insular tendencies of the ultra orthodox, and are intolerant to alternative lifestyles (really that term should extend beyond its obvious defintion.)

          Are you religious?

        • Dota
          November 19, 2011 at 1:46 PM

          Apart from refraining from Pork and Alcohol I don’t really practice Islam very much. I consider myself to be a non religious conservative.

          “”There are those who are good according to your standards; who do all the work around the house, yet allow their husbands make all the domestic decisions.”"

          lolwut? It’s not about house work, it’s about devotion. It’s not about ritual its about conscientiousness. Stop taking things at face value and you might make an intelligent argument yet.

        • Gay State Girl
          November 19, 2011 at 2:15 PM

          “Apart from refraining from Pork and Alcohol I don’t really practice Islam very much. I consider myself to be a non religious conservative.”

          That’s more than I can say. I’ve tried pork and have had to refrain from it because I can not tolerate it as I am unaccostomed to it. I don’t observe Sabbath or holidays, as I believe time away from Orthodox society will make me more tolerant.

          I don’t really have a shiksa inferiority complex, I just play a bitter jeiwsh hag online. I may have been a bitter jewish woman back in the day when jewish men only married gorgeous shiksas and non jewish men were too conservative and were intimidated by more educated women. But I am not intimidated by shiksas, as they are not always gorgeous. I have seen jewish men marry unnattractive shiksas (Mark Mezvinsky and Chelsea Clinton) and I am not at all threatened by a woman who looks like Chelsea Clinton. It so happens that my mother is more attractive than my uncle’s non jewish wife. I know my family is an isolated case, but my point holds. I am more attractive than many of the non jewish women who I see wrapped around the arms of jewish men. Secondly, I am not specifically looking for a jewish man. I told you I find the stereotypical doucheberg to be repulsive. And white gentiles are more willing to date jewish women now than they were generations ago, and they may make better husbands. I am not averse to dating outside my race either.

        • Gay State Girl
          November 19, 2011 at 2:46 PM

          That video reaffirms my hatred for douchebergs.

        • Steve
          November 19, 2011 at 3:23 PM

          it was bigfoot related too. Two birds with one stone.

  29. Gay State Girl
    November 19, 2011 at 8:09 AM

    Miscengenation amounts to genocide.
    Well Jews often refer to intermarriage as the “second holocaust” so I can’t comment on that.

  30. Gay State Girl
    November 19, 2011 at 9:09 AM

    Carly Simon does look part black.

  31. Gay State Girl
    November 19, 2011 at 9:44 AM

    Dota
    I’ve been reading the Holy War and the author talks a lot about internal conflicts and domestic issues in the European Jewish community, namely about status which contradicts his view that Jews were a unified force aginst Christendom. I know he is trying to portray Judaism as a materialistic and class conscious religion, but by doing so he undermines his claim that Jews always look out for other Jews.

    Lindsay
    An Iraq veteran called me “darling” today. He must have been from the South because that is not tolerated in the Northeast. I don’t know how it is on the West coast.

    • ski
      November 19, 2011 at 6:29 PM

      haha, funny how you say “that is not tolerated,”– sounds like you find it offensive? Do Northeasterners really consider “darling” offensive or just strange? In the South a guy can call a woman he doesn’t know very well “darling,” and it’s not at all considered offensive demeaning or in any way sexual– it’s just regarded as friendly and meant to make things “warmer.” Same thing as how Southern women (mostly middle age or older women) call younger men “honey,” or “sweetey,” or “sweetheart.”

      • Gay State Girl
        November 19, 2011 at 6:46 PM

        Ski
        If you’ve read my earlier posts, you know I think insane PC feminism is ridiculous. So are attacks on the South and southern culture.

        Personally I have no problem with being called darling or being patted on the back. But it is generally not tolerated in liberhell environments in the Northeast. Ugly feminists and bitter old spinsters will try to rush to the “defense” of a girl they feel is in danger. You have to be really careful about using endearing terms with a girl you do not know when you’re in the Northeast.

    • Robert Lindsay
      November 19, 2011 at 8:59 PM

      No way can you call a woman darling around here. Forget it. That’s like calling her baby.

  32. ski
    November 19, 2011 at 7:17 PM

    Hmmm… interesting, and of course there’s nothing wrong with Southerners having to (within reason) conform to Northern norms while in the North– it just surprises me that “darling,” would be seen as offensive.

    • Steve
      November 20, 2011 at 2:38 AM

      Where I’m from (Liverpool), in my dad’s generation (he’s 52), its quite common for men and woman to call each other love when they don’t know each other’s name: ‘have you got the time, love?’ ‘yeah, I’ve got the time if you’ve got the cash.’ ;-)

      Darling seems a bit too familiar but I don’t think people take offence. Its being nice, after all. I’d say it to a little girl most easily and have done; saying it to an older woman feels most wrong. Most peculiarly, I’ve heard a couple of men from the south-east say it to their sons quite naturally.

  33. ski
    November 19, 2011 at 7:37 PM

    Speaking of the South…

  34. Gay State Girl
    November 19, 2011 at 8:11 PM

    David Duke is not a Vanguardist as he still identifies with Christianity and sees it as being under attack by prominent Jews. I actually thought it was wise to scrap Christianity and embrace the ancient pagan religion as their de facto religion because Norse paganism reflects their ethnic heritage better.

    Some are really hardcore. Alex Linder even said that Christianity is more harmful to WN than non whites themselves. And they overlook the fact that European pagans apparently made alliances with Jews in an increasingly Christian Europe. European Jews had good relations with Vikings before Nordic nations adopted Christianity. there is even talk of possible interbreeding between the two groups.

  35. Gay State Girl
    November 19, 2011 at 8:29 PM

    Like Chelsea, Phil Weiss’s shiksa wife is butt ugly as well.
    http://www.facebook.com/people/Cynthia-Kling/634577146
    I don’t feel threatened by her, I just loathe her with a passion. She only expressed an interest in Judaism at this late stage in life in order to impress Phil’s parents, so she could extract more from their wills. There are few things I like less then disingenuity.

  36. Gay State Girl
    November 19, 2011 at 8:30 PM

    I love you Norman my darling.

  37. ski
    November 19, 2011 at 9:38 PM

    Well Christianity has already been an integral part of the West for near two millennia. Even if it’s from the Mideast, it’s still a religion that’s been shaped and formed by whites for its entire existence. The Mideast back then was part of the Roman Empire, had been long Hellenized, was largely white, and mostly Western in culture.

    But anyways, you can’t just “scrap” Christianity even if you want to, at least not in America without completely marginalizing yourself.

    European paganism never completely lost its place in Western culture anyways. Read “Paradise Lost” and you’ll find just as many references to Greek and Roman mythology as you will to Biblical verses. Tolkien’s another good example of preserving paganism within Christianity. Heck, my own upbringing included The Odyssey, The Illiad, various Viking myths and sagas, and Lord of the Rings… all alongside the Bible.

    Duke is a vanguardist since he’s more obsessed with defeating the Jews and ZOG than he is with sticking up for whites. He did tone it down when he was running for office and wasn’t vanguard then, but since he stopped campaigning he’s gotten kind of nutty. He is still more reasonable than the average WN though.

    • Gay State Girl
      November 19, 2011 at 10:11 PM

      Der Fuhrer apparently thought that Chrisitanity was detrimental to Europe as well. Technically, anyone who considers themself a devoted follower of his should therefore renounce Christianity.

      I don’t think Christianity should be considered an integral part of European identity. Many Nordic tribes (who WNs seek to emulate) were able to resist Christianization well into the second millenium. St Olaf torured those who refused to convert

      • ski
        November 20, 2011 at 6:40 PM

        Well maybe that’s why Hitler was one of the most effective destroyers of European civilization.

        I don’t believe that one must be a believing/practicing Christian to have a European identity, but there does need to be a healthy respect for its place in our civilization. It’s just not possible to understand the West without understanding Christianity. You can even dislike Christianity for the most part, or believe that things would have been better had it never arisen, and even wish it to eventually die off– but you have to understand that it DID arise and it DID contribute many positive things to our civilization and it IS and has been one of the most important aspects of it.

        You can’t just “scrap” Christianity and pretend the past 1,000+ years didn’t happen. As I said before, even the early Christians didn’t “scrap” paganism– they kept much of its memory alive and integrated it with Christianity. You don’t have to believe Christianity is true to defend Western Civilization, but you do need to have respect for it.

        This post is already kind of long, but here’s an excerpt from Lawrence Auster arguing against a Randian on the importance of Christianity to the modern West:

        “The Classical civilization came to an end in the West with the destruction of the Western Roman empire by Germanic tribes in the 5th century and the utter decay of its civilization. The Catholic Church, which had become the official religion of Rome in the 4th century, was the only surviving institution of the Roman world, in a Europe given over to barbarism, violence, and insecurity. Over hundreds of years, the Germanic and Celtic barbaric nations of Europe were slowly Christianized, in the process becoming settled nations under a rule of law. The merging together of Christianity (which carried much of the classical culture with it) with the cultures of the Germanic barbarians represented the beginning of a new civilization, which we now call the West.

        As a result, Western civilization is not a single thing, but an amalgamation of (1) the culture of the destroyed classical world, (2) the Christian religion, and (3) the cultures of the Northern barbarians. This amalgamation took place during the 500 years that you dismiss as the Dark Ages. Yes, they were “dark,” in that civilization had come to an end and Europe was prey to continual barbarian raids that made a safe and settled life impossible. But in this darkness a new culture and civilization was taking shape. Read the Venerable Bede’s History of the English Church about how, starting in 597, Roman Catholic bishops were sent by the Pope to Engand and began converting the Anglo-Saxons to Christianity, and how that common religion made the separate pagan Anglo-Saxon kingdoms into the English nation. Or read how the Carolingians (Pippin, Charles Martel, Pippin the Short, and Charlemagne) over generations slowly subdued the barbaric German tribes and Christianized them, helped by Irish and English monks such as Boniface who spent their lives traveling and preaching and converting in the wild forests of Germany. Or read how the Benedictine Order, whose rule was obedience to God, re-civilized vast ruined areas of Europe and created prosperity by combining monastic devotion with productive agriculture. Or read of the great period of Irish Christianity (also during the Dark Ages), when the illuminated manuscripts such as the Lindisfarne Gospels and the Book of Kells–creations that are at the absolute summit of our civilization–were made, and also many classical works were preserved from barbarian destruction.

        As a result of this slow Christianizing and civilizing process, and the fact that the Catholics of Europe, led by the Carolingians, were able to drive back the Arab Moslem invaders from France in the early 8th century, subdue the gangster realm of the Avars in Eastern Europe, and rescue the Papacy from the barbarian Lombards, and the fact that other barbarian invasions quieted down, Europe by the 11th century emerged as a dynamic, prosperous civilization again, no longer besieged, and the High Middle Ages (1000 to 1300) had begun. That’s what made the first Crusade possible. For the first time, the European Catholics, instead of being attacked by the Moslems, were in a position to try to re-take the once-Christian Eastern lands that had been conquered by the Moslems in the 7th century. The High Middle Ages also brought the Norman architecture and then the Gothic architecture–further summits of civilization that nothing modern can match.

        The High Middle Ages were the product of the Early Middle Ages (the Dark Ages), and in turn served as the foundation of modern Western civilization.

        Again, it was Christianity, specifically the Roman Catholic Church, which, over centuries, slowly turned the rough Germanic barbarian warriors of Europe into civilized, peaceful, and law-abiding men, turned barbarian tribes into Christian nations, and made possible the later achievements of the Renaissance and modernity.

        An important principle of this Christian civilization was St. Augustine’s division of the world into the City of God and the City of Man. This in turn was based on Jesus’ all-important statement, “Render unto Caesar what is Caesar’s, and render unto God what is God’s.” This articulation of the world into the secular realm and the spiritual realm is a keynote of Western culture and distinguishes it from all other civilizations. It limits the power of the state over the individual, which makes it quite different from the classical civilization, where there was no inherent limit to political power and men belonged to the state. Classical citizenship was very different from modern Western (and Christian) citizenship.

        Our very notion of individualism, of an inviolable individual self, is a product of Judaism and Christianity, in which God is above man and creates man and gives each person a potential value which no human power has the right to violate. This concept did not come from the classical heritage. It came from Judaism and Christianity. John Locke’s notion of natural rights was derived directly from the Bible. Because God created man’s nature, God wants man to live, therefore man has a natural right to that which will make his life possible, namely life, liberty and property.

        Our Constitution, with its separation of powers and checks and balances, is derived from the Christian idea of original sin. Since man is inherently flawed, no man, and no human agency, should have unlimited power.

        I could go on and on showing the formative Christian components of our civilization.

        Yet you, ignorant of and alienated from these and many other principles of Western civilization, see the entire period between 500 and 1500 as merely a pit of darkness. You only know about the Classical and scientific aspects of the West. You have no knowledge of, or affection for, our civilization as a whole. As a result, real Western patriotism–which means not just love of the West but the ability to explain and defend the West–is not possible for you.”

        • Dota
          November 20, 2011 at 7:32 PM

          Good post Ski, it’s something I’ve always understood; that Christianity is at the heart of western civilization. I’m going to copy your post.

        • Gay State Girl
          November 20, 2011 at 8:23 PM

          “Again, it was Christianity, specifically the Roman Catholic Church, which, over centuries, slowly turned the rough Germanic barbarian warriors of Europe into civilized, peaceful, and law-abiding men, turned barbarian tribes into Christian nations, and made possible the later achievements of the Renaissance and modernity.”

          Are you implying that Greek Philosophy or Roman Classics couldn’t have yield the same results? Or that your Germanic and Celtic ancestors were so barbaric so that they couldn’t have possibly evolved over time to create something similar?

          “Our very notion of individualism, of an inviolable individual self, is a product of Judaism and Christianity, in which God is above man and creates man and gives each person a potential value which no human power has the right to violate.”

          This concept has caused as much harm as good. Children were judged according to their appearance and abilities as Christians believed that one’s self worth was determined how god made them. This view has also led to prejudice and abuse against the disabled. considered to be severely flawed as they were created in God’s image and carried the devil’s mark. Flawed individuals were not allowed to enter the gates of Jerusalem during the Hasmonean period and later during the early Christian years as their presence would disturb and afflict other worshipers and lessen the sincerity of their prayers.

        • Gay State Girl
          November 20, 2011 at 8:53 PM

          Also, how can you justify the killing of resisters and non believers in order to enlighten society as a whole? Wouldn’t that put you in the same category as the barbarians you are attempting tot civilize?

        • ski
          November 20, 2011 at 9:07 PM

          “Are you implying that Greek Philosophy or Roman Classics couldn’t have yield the same results?”

          No not exactly the same results. But more to the point, rather than whether they possibly could have yielded similar results– they didn’t– that’s the point. Maybe in some alternate reality things would be different and we’d be living in a nice Graeco-Roman pagan modernity– it’s certainly interesting to imagine– but it didn’t happen.

          Plus there’s the fact that most Greek or Roman Classics wouldn’t have survived without Christianity. Monasteries were where most classical texts were copied and stored. Classical culture was transmitted to the Northern Europeans (and preserved in Southern Europe) through the medium of Christianity.

          “Or that your Germanic and Celtic ancestors were so barbaric so that they couldn’t have possibly evolved over time to create something similar?”

          Maybe eventually, but the fact is that Christianity is actual medium through which they became as civilized as the did.

          “This view has also led to prejudice and abuse against the disabled. considered to be severely flawed as they were created in God’s image and carried the devil’s mark. ”

          Pagans typically thought the disabled were cursed by the gods and were usually killed in infancy. Stigmatizing the disabled has been the norm through most of human history, but Christians have probably overall been more kind to the disabled than most pagans.

        • ski
          November 20, 2011 at 9:14 PM

          I’m not in favor of killing non-believers and don’t intend to defend everything about Christendom. Christians certainly have been barbaric at times.

          But OTOH Socrates was sentenced to death in pagan Greece for impiety.

        • Gay State Girl
          November 20, 2011 at 10:06 PM

          I read about infanticide and human sacrifice among Pagans (not necessarily about the disabled) but was unaware that it was so widespread and found in every tribe. Not every Pagan tribe was quite as barbaric and there were possitive elements of Pagan culture. Sally Quinn says that Pagans would have been more receptive to scientific discovery than the Catholic Church, as they see mother earth and elements of nature as their deity rather than an invisible God. Paganism is generally non Prosthelytizing and though its inherents may have been violent with other religions and one another, it has coexisted with other religions and never eliminated other faiths on a large scale as Christianity and Islam have.

        • Steve
          November 20, 2011 at 10:45 PM

          @ski great post- the big one with the quote.

          “Plus there’s the fact that most Greek or Roman Classics wouldn’t have survived without Christianity”

          That’s not the whole story though. A lot of the most important works of Greek philosophy where preserved by the Arabs and transmitted to Europe in the middle ages, and where then preserved by the RC institutions. I haven’t got a lot of time, so a couple of quotes:

          “The introduction of Greek philosophy and science into the culture of the Latin West in the Middle Ages was an event that transformed the intellectual life of Western Europe. It consisted of the discovery of many original works, such as those written by Aristotle in the classical period, commentaries on his works written in late Antiquity, and commentaries from early Muslim philosophers in the Arab world, or Muslim world, written during the Islamic Golden Age from the 9th to 12th centuries.” (wikipedia, but whatever, its true :-P ).

          ” Until the twelfth century, the medievals relied on a few influential Platonic dialogues such as the Timaeus, known through the translations and commentaries of ancient authorities, and ancient handbooks of Greek philosophical thought, such as the Didaskalikos of Alcinous and the Timaeus commentary of Calcidius. Notoriously arcane, cryptic, and dualistic, these influences gave rise to a philosophy heavily dependent on the notion that this world is neither real or important and that there is another, higher, better dimension of reality, inculturating Christianity with a world-negational attitude that has not been fully overcome.

          While Latin Europe struggled along with incomplete texts of Plato and a dearth of Aristotle, scholars dwelling in Islamic countries were more fortunate. Lands conquered by Arabs early in the Islamic period held many Greek texts which were translated into Arabic, including almost all of Aristotle as we known him today.

          In the twelfth century, translation centers sprang up in Sicily and Spain and intensive translation activity began. Works of Aristotle and Plato hitherto unknown in the Latin West were translated from Arabic into Latin, along with pseudo-Aristotelian works such as the Liber de Causis. The works of Arabic philosophers and commentators like al-Kindi, al-Farabi, Avicenna, and Averroes were also translated.

          Even more texts became available in the 13th century, including early Platonic dialogues like the Phaedo and the Meno, more texts of Aristotle and commentaries on Aristotle.

          This had an enormous impact on Western philosophy. ‘Arabic thought provided European thought with new materials, and brought within its purview a whole new world of metaphysics’. (W. M. Watt, The Influence of Islam on Medieval Europe. Edinburgh: Edinburgh University Press, 1972, p. 70) ” note- that reference is just for the quoted sentence. Here is the website:
          http://www.hartford-hwp.com/archives/20/014.html

        • Gay State Girl
          November 21, 2011 at 10:32 AM

          Dota
          Out of curiousity, why do you love Christianity so much? My sister who’s studied theology more extensively, says given the choice she would rather be a muslim.

        • Steve
          November 21, 2011 at 4:13 PM

          you might be interested in my post lower down Ski. Not the first one you come to; the one below that.

  38. geAgMobemig
    November 20, 2011 at 8:46 AM

    My first post

  39. Gay State Girl
    November 20, 2011 at 8:56 AM

    Google calls Norman Finkelstein gay!

    • Steve
      November 20, 2011 at 9:06 AM

      yeah google calls everyone gay. if you type is so and so… then gay is nearly always an autosuggestion. I guess a lot of people are wondering if a lot of people are gay. or its google’s joke.

      Some youtubers have mobilised their following to get an autosuggestion in place for them, if you know what I mean. The followers are told to all google a specific question or statement about them so google picks it up and starts suggesting it. I know of two cases and I think they both worked. if you type ‘is kevjumba…’ a suggestion is ‘….a heterosexual bear wrestler’. Type ‘is Hank Green…’ and the top suggestion is ‘awesome’.

  40. Gay State Girl
    November 20, 2011 at 9:31 AM

    The google elves pre program it. The first result for “failure” was George Bush.

    • Steve
      November 20, 2011 at 9:40 AM

      Obama and Bush both appear. I think I could believe both are not pre-programmed.

      Knowing what guys are like, I can almost believe the gay ones are all asking if every guy is guy, because if there’s one thing you can rely on its the mass action of horny guys on the internet… but I’m still leaning towards the google elves for that one because it seems to be an autosuggest for literally everyone.

      • Gay State Girl
        November 20, 2011 at 9:45 AM

        Norman is supeer faggish. apparently he claims to have a girlfriend, but I believe she is just for show for when he travels to the middle east, to prove that he’s not gay in the face of radical muslims.

        • Steve
          November 20, 2011 at 10:36 AM

          oh yeah I know that guy. I think Chomsky is counted among his admirers. Have you seen this? Pretty controversial stuff.

        • Steve
          November 20, 2011 at 10:50 AM

          pretty strong stuff, eh? emotive

        • Robert Lindsay
          November 20, 2011 at 12:03 PM

          Faggy straight guys are a dime a dozen. They are everywhere. It doesn’t mean a thing. You can’t tell sexual orientation by overt behavior like that.

        • Gay State Girl
          November 20, 2011 at 12:25 PM

          I find him damn sexy but his voice is a major turn off. If voice tone and homosexuality are hereditary, I’ll have to rethink having kids with him.

          I have mixed feelings on the Palestinians as a whole. I certainly don’t hate them as individuals, and respect their right to self determination, but I’ve become increasingly wary of the Palestinian Solidarity Movement, especially among non Arab Westerners such as Finkelstein, who attempt to paint them as angelic and overlook the negative aspects of their culture. If a Palestinian mistreated him for being gay, Norman would find a way to justify it.

        • Steve
          November 20, 2011 at 1:25 PM

          I agree about the Palestinian culture thing GSG

  41. Tulio
    November 20, 2011 at 10:22 AM

    This blog is truly the wild west of the blogosphere. I think that’s the main draw for me.

    • Robert Lindsay
      November 20, 2011 at 12:00 PM

      That’s the general idea. We are trying to piss off everyone and I mean everyone!

    • ski
      November 20, 2011 at 7:06 PM

      Yeah that’s about right.

      One day it’s bigfoot, the next day it’s humanitarian Stalin, then Chechen anti-Christs, then the Negroes, den da Jewz, the Gypsies, the fags, the pedophiles, assorted nutcases, the Great White Man, India is a shithole… and so on

  42. Gay State Girl
    November 20, 2011 at 3:09 PM

    Why does Norman have to have that obnoxious Jersey accent? I find him really appealing, which is rare for a Jewish guy. But his voice and mannerisms are a huge turn off.

  43. Gay State Girl
    November 20, 2011 at 4:25 PM

    I agree that the crying girl was ridiculous. Apparently she wasn’t jewish. But I don’t like his frequent comparisons of Israelis to Nazis, especially when he intends it as humor. He tends to overuse material and inject it into as many fake headlines as possible.

  44. Gay State Girl
    November 20, 2011 at 4:41 PM

    This is my favorite review of him from ratemyprofessors.

    “Very, very intelligent man. He’s sort of funny – laughs at his own jokes more than anyone else. Though I learned a lot about Israel and Palestine, I wish the class would have felt a little more unbiased. Finkelstein is a strange strange man and will say things sometimes that just totally surprises you. He’s definitely a big fan of himself.”

    Wish Phil Weiss had been a professor rather than a journalist. Finkelstein’s reviews would look pale in comparison.

  45. Gay State Girl
    November 20, 2011 at 5:31 PM

    Norman, you are the one and only.

  46. Gay State Girl
    November 20, 2011 at 5:40 PM

    Everytime I go to sleep, I wake up screaming Normaaaaaan.

    • Dota
      November 20, 2011 at 7:26 PM

      Bet Norman’s girlfriend is a shiksa; an Asian one most likely :D

      • Gay State Girl
        November 20, 2011 at 8:31 PM

        Dota
        I’m guessing he is dating a Palestinian old woman just to show his solidarity, but he really craves big black dick. :)

        • Robert Lindsay
          November 20, 2011 at 11:23 PM

          If he were gay, he would just be out, would he not? How many gays, especially as Leftist as he is, are that closeted these days? Not many closeted Leftist professors that I can think of.

        • Steve
          November 20, 2011 at 11:34 PM

          Maybe that’s because they are closeted lol

          you are probably right. Maybe GSG just likes the thought of Finkelstein and a big black dick.

        • Gay State Girl
          November 21, 2011 at 10:25 AM

          Lindsay
          Norman travels to the middle east frequently. He can’t be open.

          Sally Quinn said Paganism could be reformed. Sorry about Philosophy and Classics. I was referring to Greek and Roman paganism as well as Zoroastranism and Egyptian Paganism.

  47. Gay State Girl
    November 21, 2011 at 10:29 AM

    I say that because I’d rather have Norman with a non jewish man than a shiksa.

    I did hear about Muslims preserving greek texts, that’s why I was skeptical about the Monasteries storing it, as I had heard that the Vatican had done away with any non Christian theology or literature.

    • Steve
      November 21, 2011 at 4:10 PM

      @GSG I ended up writing you an essay in reply!

      The texts were translated into Latin, the language of the church. I don’t know if they were held in monastic libraries but that’s incidental. They were studied and taught in the medieval universities . In fact, the Latin translations of Aristotle and other natural science texts were central to the curriculum. The universities themselves developed out of Christian Cathedral schools and monastic schools and became self-governing corporations of scholars.

      James Hannam writes “during the Middle Ages, the education infrastructure of Europe was overseen, if not managed, by the Church. That role, which meant acting as both the guarantor of academic freedom and arbitrator of its boundaries, tended to be carried out with a light touch and by ensuring the right people were placed in the key positions. Combined with their status as self-governing corporations of scholars, this gave the universities independence from local influence and the freedom to speculate in a wide range of fields which also meant their declarations were highly valued.”

      Scholasticism was the method of critical thinking which constituted mainstream academic practice in the universities. It was characterised by dialectical reasoning, inference, resolving contradictions, conceptual analysis and the careful drawing of distinctions. It attempted to be rigorously logical and precise. In an unfitting affront to good academic practice I will quote wikipedia once again: “as a program, scholasticism began as an attempt at harmonization on the part of medieval Christians thinkers: to harmonize the various authorities of their own tradition, and to reconcile Christian theology with classical and late antiquity philosophy, especially that of Aristotle but also of Neoplatonism. The main figures of scholasticism historically are Anselm of Canterbury, Peter Abelard, Albertus Magnus, Duns Scotus, William of Ockham, Bonaventure and Thomas Aquinas. Thomas Aquinas’s masterwork, the Summa Theologica, is often seen as the highest fruit of Scholasticism.”

      You obviously weren’t allowed to rationally criticise the Church or the existence of God in the middle ages or you would be in for serious trouble (it took other developments before that changed) but nevertheless rigorous, logical, formal academic practice was developed in Christian universities for a Christian project. The study of the Greek thinkers flourished and as far as I know those works were never suppressed. The new Latin translations of Aristotle and so on and Greek rationalism invigorated Christian theology. It was as if the Islamic world passed on the baton to Christian Europe.

      By the 13th century, almost half of the highest offices (abbots, archbishops, cardinals) in the Church were occupied by degreed masters. The mendicant orders embraced scholastic university education too. Hannam writes, “both the Franciscans and Dominicans saw their mission as preaching and for this they required well-educated brothers who could engage difficult subjects with ease. An intellectual rivalry grew up between the two orders, which led to competition between them to get their brothers into the choicest university appointments.”

      If anyone is interested, here is the Hannam essay that the quotations are from: http://jameshannam.com/medievalscience.htm

      He wrote ‘the Genesis of Science: how the Christian middle ages launched the scientific revolution’.

      I’m out. Peace.

      • Steve
        November 21, 2011 at 4:24 PM

        * I said you couldn’t criticise the existence of God but I wonder if anyone/how many secretly didn’t believe…?? Maybe it wasn’t an issue because everyone believed anyway? In any case, the church probably wouldn’t have taken kindly to anyone they saw as a heretic, of whatever kind.

    • Steve
      November 21, 2011 at 4:32 PM

      sometimes I wish we could edit…..I just wanna make plain…the Muslims preserved the Greek philosophical texts until they passed them on to Europe, then the Islamic golden age ended in the 13th century…I don’t know what happened to the Arabic texts after that but they weren’t widely studied. destroyed? lost? They have been kept alive in Europe since then.

  48. Gay State Girl
    November 21, 2011 at 10:48 AM

    I know that many of the more conservative Christians banned any form non Christian literature. Even celtic songs were banned.

  49. Gay State Girl
    November 21, 2011 at 12:21 PM

    William Tindel, Joan of Arc, Sopratos, Hypatia of Alexandria, Spanish Pricillianus, Saxon pagan victims of Charlemagne, Albegensians (though self identified christians, they deemed unacceptable in the eyes of the Catholic church, Cathars of Langedoc, John Huss, Michael Sattler, Hubmaier, Giordano Bruno, Thomas Aikenhead, “pacification” of Ireland, various witch hunts, millions killed in Protestant/Catholic secterian violence.

    And this list only mentions European gentiles (Christian, pagan, atheist) killed in the name of Christ.

    • Steve
      November 21, 2011 at 9:45 PM

      Some evil things have been done by Christians. But were they really following Christ’s example and teaching? Were they acting as Christians should?

      You have heard that it was said, ‘An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth.’ But I tell you, do not resist an evil person. If someone strikes you on the right cheek, turn to him the other also. (Matt. 5:38-39)

      Jesus was asked: “Teacher, which is the greatest commandment in the Law?” Jesus replied: ” ‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.’ This is the first and greatest commandment. And the second is like it: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’ All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments. Matt 22:36-40 (Amp)

      Love your enemies, do good to those who hate you, bless those who curse you, pray for those who mistreat you. (Matt. 5:43-48, Luke 6:27-28)

      Put your sword back in its place…for all who draw the sword will die by the sword. (Matt. 26:52)

      Blessed are the peacemakers, for they shall be called sons of God. (Matt. 5:9)

      • Steve
        November 21, 2011 at 10:06 PM

        ..and maybe the most important ethical principle in Christianity:

        “The Golden Rule”

        So in everything, do to others what you would have them do to you, for this sums up the Law and the Prophets. ((Matthew 7:12 NIV)

        I’m not actually really a Christian, lol. I’m just listening to your radio interview Robert. Cool voice.

        • Robert Lindsay
          November 21, 2011 at 10:29 PM

          You like my voice? LOL. Women like it too. They say it’s sexy. Or at least they used to. Haven’t heard that for a while. I used to go in cam chatrooms on the Net where you could turn on voice and talk. I would start talking and some women would go, “Ohhhh! I love his voice! He’s so sexy!” LOL. That was about 10 years ago though.

        • Steve
          November 21, 2011 at 10:48 PM

          yeah I like your voice, its official.

          the accent part of the sound of your voice is interesting…I hear a bit of Texas type of twang sometimes and then other parts sound almost Canadian. But I’m far from an expert on American accents as you may now confirm…

        • Robert Lindsay
          November 21, 2011 at 10:55 PM

          Nope. That is 100% pure California beach surfer stoner hippie accent. LOL.

        • Steve
          November 21, 2011 at 11:09 PM

          lol I only know the south, New York, new jersey, Boston, and Texas (or so I thought).

          I thought the surfer dudes sounded like Bill and Ted.

          how did you get to be on a radio show?

        • Robert Lindsay
          November 21, 2011 at 11:15 PM

          I know the guy who runs the show. He asked me to be on it. He comments here sometimes.

  50. Gay State Girl
    November 21, 2011 at 12:31 PM

    I forgot communists killed by Catholic nationalist juntas in Latin America.

  51. Gay State Girl
    November 21, 2011 at 12:41 PM

    “Any white nationalist who follows a Jewish God… is confused. That’s the essence of “Nietzsche Contra Wagner,” an interesting debate on this topic.” Vanguard

  52. Gay State Girl
    November 21, 2011 at 1:41 PM

    Dota
    Why do you like Christianity so much?

    • Dota
      November 21, 2011 at 4:49 PM

      “”Dota
      Why do you like Christianity so much?”"

      It’s a good religion and has done its share of good for the world (with its share of bad). The positive aspects barely get any mention in the main steam press. I’m fully capable of disagreeing with another religion but appreciating it nonetheless. I’ve always believed that Islam is a child of 2 parents. Ritualistically its a mirror image of Judaism. But while Islam inherits its body from Judaism, it gets its soul from Christianity. Without Christianity, Islam would merely be a tribal religion, Judaism for Arabs. I get that now which is why I respect Christianity. Real Christianity, not the Jew worshiping evangelical crap.

      • Gay State Girl
        November 21, 2011 at 4:55 PM

        Dota
        There are many manifestations of Christianity. Not just “real Christianity” and “Jew worshiping crap” though I have yeat to see a mainstream Christian denomination allow for other religions to go to heaven.

  53. Gay State Girl
    November 21, 2011 at 1:55 PM

    Lindsay
    why do you like Christianity so much?

  54. Gay State Girl
    November 21, 2011 at 2:21 PM

    Usually when one speaks of Christian persecution, they refer to persecution of Jews, Muslims, or natives of colonized land. But more Europeans suffered at the hands of the church than other groups.

    • KarolS
      November 21, 2011 at 2:42 PM

      The biggest genocide (in terms of percentage of the world human population) in Europe was by the relatively heathen Goths when they destroyed the mainly Christian Rome.

  55. Gay State Girl
    November 21, 2011 at 2:43 PM

    Phil Weiss loves Jewish men, thinks they’re all alphas, and wants to endow thewm all with beautiful shiksas, but he said he would rather kill all jewish women then afflict gentile men with us.

  56. Gay State Girl
    November 21, 2011 at 4:56 PM

    What do you think of Judaism?

  57. Gay State Girl
    November 21, 2011 at 5:09 PM

    Lakewood NJ grew from 60,000 in 2000, to 90,000 in 2010 due mostly to Orthodox jewish and Latino migration. Lakewood has the highest birthrate in the country. There are 15,000 Orthodox children.

  58. Gay State Girl
    November 21, 2011 at 5:23 PM

    I don’t know if this was true on a large scale but John Muir said that he was banned from reading anything other than the bible, even Scottish lullabies were banned.

  59. Gay State Girl
    November 21, 2011 at 5:34 PM

    I fully understand where Phil is coming from, but his logic is flawed as his own wife is an ugly beast.

  60. johnUK
    November 21, 2011 at 6:39 PM

    Ladies and gentlemen I would like to present the only real presidential candidate who can sort America’s foreign and domestic problems.

    Running as an independent candidate for president the honourable Pastor Terry Jones.

    http://www.facebook.com/pages/Dr-Terry-Jones-for-President-2012/195631463844788

  61. Gay State Girl
    November 21, 2011 at 8:58 PM

    I’ve never smoked or done drugs and I stay away from alcohol as I am pre diabetic, but Norman makes me understand that feeling. I’m all glitter eyed.

  62. Gay State Girl
    November 22, 2011 at 6:45 AM

    It’s all I can do to help me from getting angry as I do with others. Where have you been? Reading all my embarassing posts about Norman?

  63. Gay State Girl
    November 22, 2011 at 6:48 AM

    I have intensive hatred and irrational anger for a woman I’ve never met. I wish I could feel guilty about it but I don’t.

  64. Gay State Girl
    November 22, 2011 at 6:50 AM

    Guys often talk about how they want to slam girls. Can’t we be afforded the same right?

    • Bay Area Guy
      November 22, 2011 at 2:38 PM

      Guys often talk about how they want to slam girls. Can’t we be afforded the same right?

      Well, I think I speak for all guys when I say that we don’t fantasize bout 57 year old women. ;-)

  65. Gay State Girl
    November 22, 2011 at 12:52 PM

    It’s all I can do to stop hating Cynthia to the point of self destruction. If I found out out Norman had a shiksa, than it would start all over again.

  66. Gay State Girl
    November 22, 2011 at 1:25 PM

    Dota
    What do you think of Judaism? be 100% honest.

    • Dota
      November 22, 2011 at 4:02 PM

      @ GSG

      I don’t mind Judaism, I think its a decent religion for the most part. It’s somewhat primitive as most Tribal religions go, but Jewish Othropraxy appeals to me. I think the biggest mistake that most honest anti-Semites make is that they try to rationalize Jewish Pathology using Judaism as a lens. This is incorrect. Judaism merely reflects Jewish pathology, and is not a cause for it.

      • Gay State Girl
        November 22, 2011 at 4:13 PM

        Orthodox are still somewhat behind in terms of modernity and we don’t take criticism well, however I never felt that any belief system was imposed on me. My biggest beef is the strict adherence to halachic law and rituals, which may contradict the original meaning of religious law. For example eruvs, shabbos goys, timers, all designed to help Orthodox jews do muksa, without actually violating their laws.

        • Dota
          November 22, 2011 at 8:27 PM

          Modernity is highly overrated. As Barbara Ingham points out, modernity is a western construct founded on western values. There is generally no co-relation between modernity and industrialization, but it does help. What’s important is that a culture move forward and keep up with the times by engaging itself. It must also be open to intellectualism. Modernity is a Western attempt at cultural introspection and progress which might not work for other cultures. But its vital that other cultures move forward nonetheless. Muslims and hindus bash modernity to justify their descent into backward orthodoxy.

        • Gay State Girl
          November 22, 2011 at 9:15 PM

          I was referring to their stance on progressive issues and there acceptance of non Orthodox movements and non Orthodox lifestyles. OJ is non prosthelytizing toward non Jews, but is very concerned about secular jews. In the diaspora, they generally suck up to secular jews, because they rely on them for support and protection, but in Israel they are quite hateful. They will protest if an Israeli company employs jews working on Saturdays. They are generally rude or standoffish toward outsiders. If you walk in a UO neighborhood wearing bright colors or revealing ANY skin, they will spit on you or pelt you with dirty diapers. Israel has a large GLBT scene and same sex marriage is legal, and so far the UO community’s numbers haven’t affected that so far, though time will tell, with the rising Orthodox birthrates.

          Orthodox Jews in America are not hardcore social conservatives like the evangelicals; you won’t see them protesting abortion or gay rights-they have more important things to worry about. But there record on animal abuse is very poor, and they won’t accept criticism. A significant portion still practice Shlugin Kaporos before Yom Kippur, though they are in the minority, most modern orthodox and mainstream orthodox don’t practice it and there is even a movement against it. They haven’t been very receptive to concerns about animal welfare within the Kosher factory farms.

        • Bay Area Guy
          November 22, 2011 at 9:40 PM

          In the diaspora, they generally suck up to secular jews, because they rely on them for support and protection, but in Israel they are quite hateful.

          Absolutely correct, GSG.

          In addition to everything you mentioned, the Ultra Orthodox in Israel are also quite hypocritical.

          For example, for ultra religious Jews, a Jewish state was not supposed to come into being until the arrival of the messiah.

          However, despite the fact that they are anti-Zionist in principle, they are more than happy to accept money from the Israeli government and U.S. Christian Zionist organizations.

          The IDF has also been increasingly drawing from their ranks, and this has resulted in much friction.

        • Bay Area Guy
          November 22, 2011 at 9:46 PM

          @ GSG

          In many ways, secular Ashkenazi Jews in Israel are feeling the heat.

          When viewed in this light, it’s little wonder that so many of them are acquiring visas for Western countries, just in case shit hits the fan.

          There’s always been their fear about high Arab birthrates and the existential threat to Israel as a Jewish state due to Arabs and growing non-Jewish immigration.

          In addition to that, many secular Jews are now worried about the growing numbers and influence of the haredim/ultra Orthodox. The Orthodox are especially influential in Jerusalem, where they engage in all of the behavior you mentioned (ie. attacking women who show any skin, attacking cars that drive through their neighborhoods on Saturday, etc).

          They also resent the Orthodox because they can often be exempted from military service.

          To add on to these demographic problems, you have growing class inequalities in Israel due to three decades of neoliberalism, as well as growing international isolation. Not to mention that the Western world might finally say “enough is enough!” with Israel if they’re ever foolish enough to attack Iran (which looks like more and more of a possibility, unless they can get the U.S. to do it for them).

          I think it’s safe to say that more than a few intelligent Israelis want an escape hatch, because they know their society is slowly flushing down the drain.

        • Dota
          November 22, 2011 at 10:08 PM

          “”To add on to these demographic problems, you have growing class inequalities in Israel due to three decades of neoliberalism, as well as growing international isolation.”"

          Interesting. Israel is a welfare state last I heard and Neo liberalism combined with a welfare system is a disastrous combination. Interestingly enough Israel always leaned towards socialism even during the cold war period and got away with it while the US rattled its saber at Latin American countries who showed even the slightest interest in socialism. What do you make of this BAG?

        • Gay State Girl
          November 22, 2011 at 10:19 PM

          “I think it’s safe to say that more than a few intelligent Israelis want an escape hatch, because they know their society is slowly flushing down the drain.”

          And taking Western civilization with it. I often wonder what the world would look like had Israel never been created. Although Western nations supported it at first so they wouldn’t have to absorb Holocaust survivors, it ultimately came back to haunt them, in every way. The fact that they refused to give an inch of their own land toward a jewish state also haunted them.

          I will say it has put diaspora jewry in a very challenging situation. I feel very uncomfortable when I see American synagogues bearing an Israeli flag or hear of American Jews joining the IDF. But the worst is the constant state of fear they keep diaspora jews in, but particularly the elderly jews who they claim to speak on behalf of. I can see the state my grandmother is in and it breaks my heart. They lead these elderly jews to believe the whole world is against them and that is unforgivible.
          I’m increasingly scared about the possibility of a war with Iran as my sister is going to Israel next year to study in girl’s yeshiva. I’ll try to convince her not to go.

        • Bay Area Guy
          November 22, 2011 at 10:50 PM

          @ Dota

          Interesting. Israel is a welfare state last I heard and Neo liberalism combined with a welfare system is a disastrous combination.

          Based on what I’ve read, Israel has all but completely ravaged its welfare state and social programs, and has gone from being one of the most economically egalitarian countries in the world to one of the least. In fact, I think it’s even worse than the U.S. in this regard.

          Up until 1977, Israel was indeed very much Socialist, at least with regards to Ashkenazi Jews. Arabs and Mizrahim got scraps. In fact, a major factor in the elimination of Israel’s Zionist Labor elite was the resentment of Mizrahim, who played a big role in electing the neoliberal Likud.

          And ever since then, Israel has become progressively regressive in terms of economics.

          Interestingly enough Israel always leaned towards socialism even during the cold war period and got away with it while the US rattled its saber at Latin American countries who showed even the slightest interest in socialism. What do you make of this BAG?

          The way I see it, there’s enough hypocrisy to go around, and the U.S. is definitely no exception.

          Of course, none of those Latin American countries had a diaspora lobby with anywhere near the power that Israel had, but I think we already know all about that.

        • Bay Area Guy
          November 22, 2011 at 10:59 PM

          @ GSG

          I often wonder what the world would look like had Israel never been created.

          Really hard to say, GSG.

          Without Israel, there would still be repression, conflict, etc. And the U.S. certainly would have been no saint in the Middle East, even without the influence of Israel and various “American” Israel firsters.

          That being said, I think the Middle East would be much more stable. U.S. imperialism, as bad as it is, is ultimately more concerned with greed than ideology.

          The U.S. would not have wanted to create “regime change” (unless that regime directly threatened its interests, which is what happened to Iran in the early 50s) or destabilize the region. Its primary interests would have been easy access to oil, and keeping the region free of Soviet influence, and to that end, it would try to maintain “peace” and stability. Not for any moral reasons, mind you, but self-interest.

          Israel and its lobby, on the other hand, have completely screwed up such interests.

          Although Western nations supported it at first so they wouldn’t have to absorb Holocaust survivors, it ultimately came back to haunt them, in every way. The fact that they refused to give an inch of their own land toward a jewish state also haunted them.

          I don’t think allowing Israel to be created was a huge mistake on the part of the West.

          I think the biggest mistake was allowing Israel to get out of hand and go about its affairs unchecked and unpunished.

          After the Lavon Affair and U.S.S. Liberty incidents, the U.S. should have come down hard on Israel and made it pay. Ditto for all the spying incidents (ie. Israel selling U.S. military technology to China and getting away with it).

          The problem is that the U.S. and the West have let Israel get away too much. And as any young person can attest to, when you are allowed to get away with misbehavior, there’s no reason to stop.

          There was a point where the U.S. and the West could have put Israel in its place and told it to “cool off.” We’re far past that point. The only way the West will come down on Israel is if it causes unprecedented disaster by attacking Iran.

          At that point, the West will say “enough is enough!” and decide to put the rabid animal down.

          I’m increasingly scared about the possibility of a war with Iran as my sister is going to Israel next year to study in girl’s yeshiva. I’ll try to convince her not to go.

          Yes, be sure that you do. Israel is NOT an ideal destination right now.

  67. Gay State Girl
    November 22, 2011 at 2:22 PM

    Hilarious anti chabad site
    http://www.chabad-mafia.com/
    The author is a friggin nut but it’s an informative read and it’ll crack you up.

  68. Gay State Girl
    November 22, 2011 at 7:40 PM

    We are crossing the water our whole life through
    We are making a passage that is straight and true
    Every heart is a vessel every dream is a light
    Shining through the darkness of the blackest night
    -Bill Staines
    A real New England classic. Never caught on anywhere else.

  69. Gay State Girl
    November 22, 2011 at 10:47 PM

    Gay Area Guy
    You got to check out this anti chabad site. The parts that are true are very informative; the others are downright hilarious.
    http://www.chabad-mafia.com/

    • Unsolved Mystery (not the PUA)
      November 22, 2011 at 10:51 PM

      What about unpious.com or something like that. They had the article about “Orthodox Jewish Wives’ Girls Night Out” which made the MRAs cry out that even orthodox jewish women cannot be controlled by their men and will end up cuckholding them! America is a Slutopia I tell you!

  70. Gay State Girl
    November 22, 2011 at 11:08 PM

    “At that point, the West will say “enough is enough!” and decide to put the rabid animal down”

    How will they do that?

    • Bay Area Guy
      November 22, 2011 at 11:16 PM

      How will they do that?

      Hard to say.

      Economic sanctions might do the trick.

      I don’t know about military action, though. Israel has nuclear weapons, and from what I’ve read, they have a “if we’re going down, we’re taking the world with us” mentality.

      All I know is that at some point, Israel’s either going to have to reform itself (unlikely) or be put down. And either way, it’s not going to be pretty.

      • Gay State Girl
        November 23, 2011 at 7:51 AM

        They’d nuke themselves before packing up their bags.

        I’m worried that while it is considered liberal by orthodox standards, they might venture out to the West Bank holy sites for trips and they’ll probably try to set her up with a guy and my sister is extremely vulnerable.

      • Dota
        November 23, 2011 at 10:47 AM

        “”Economic sanctions might do the trick. “”

        That’s all thats really required realistically. Western aid keeps the Israeli war machine running indefinately. Without it Israel’s economy would collapse and inflation would ravage their society. Happened in the 80s when Reagen bailed them out. Despite all their talk of Chutzpah and superior IQ, the Israelis are parasites at heart, and parasites are easy to deal with once the host becomes aware of their existance.

        • Bay Area Guy
          November 23, 2011 at 1:39 PM

          Despite all their talk of Chutzpah and superior IQ, the Israelis are parasites at heart, and parasites are easy to deal with once the host becomes aware of their existance.

          Indeed.

          The goal of the Zionist movement was to create a “new Jew,” one who didn’t fit anti-Jewish stereotypes. Such “new Jews,” in Palestine and later Israel, would be farmers, laborers, would not be parasitical bankers, etc, and would overall be different from diaspora Jews.

          Sadly, such has not been the case. If anything, Israeli Jews (particularly Ashkenazi Jews) are some of the most parasitical people on earth.

          From what I’ve read on Mondoweiss, they refer to almost all forms of manual labor (even construction, which is considered a decent profession by white American heartlanders here in the State) as “Arab work.”

        • Asian Philosopher Om Tat Sat
          November 23, 2011 at 1:43 PM

          “From what I’ve read on Mondoweiss, they refer to almost all forms of manual labor (even construction, which is considered a decent profession by white American heartlanders here in the State) as “Arab work.”

          And Gulf Arabs refer to manual labor as “Indian work”

        • Gay State Girl
          November 23, 2011 at 3:47 PM

          “From what I’ve read on Mondoweiss, they refer to almost all forms of manual labor (even construction, which is considered a decent profession by white American heartlanders here in the State) as “Arab work.””

          You read that rag. Phil is clearly a selfish ego maniac. He does the Palestinian cause and indeed the “gentile cause” more harm than good. By drawing attention to every problem in Israeli and diaspora Jewry, and by placing all jews under one tent (yes that was intentional) and making useless generalizations; (all young jews are clueless spoiled brats who have no idea about the world around them, all jewish women are highly opinionated but grossly misinformed bitches who no man should ever have to deal with, and of course, how the whole world would benefit from being forcibly integrated with other cultures) it’s almost as if he is trying to call dibs on jewish self criticism and corner the market.

          It’s true that most Israelis consider themselves above manual labor, but they do serve in the IDF and later the reserves and do work most american jewish guys wouldn’t dream of.

  71. Asian Philosopher Om Tat Sat
    November 23, 2011 at 1:34 PM

    The 3 Abrahamic faiths lack philosophical depth. They are about people, stories, laws and moral code. For philosophical depth one must look to South Asian philosphy, the 7 schools of Hindu Philosphy from which sprang the worlds most philosophical religions and schools of thought.

    • Dota
      November 23, 2011 at 6:29 PM

      “For philosophical depth one must look to South Asian philosphy, the 7 schools of Hindu Philosphy from which sprang the worlds most philosophical religions and schools of thought.”

      Sure lol. And the Taj Mahal was originally a Hindu temple. No wait, so was the Kabaa! I bet even the Aboriginals of North America practice some variation of Hinduism.

      Anyhow I’d take Confucianism over Hinduism any day. As another commenter had said: Give east Asians a barren piece of land and they will erect upon it Japan, Taiwan, Singapore and Korea. Give South Asians resource rich lands and they will erect Pakistan, Bangladesh and Sri Lanka.

      • Asian Philosopher Om Tat Sat
        November 23, 2011 at 7:20 PM

        ” And the Taj Mahal was originally a Hindu temple. No wait, so was the Kabaa! ”

        What are you talking about?

        “Anyhow I’d take Confucianism over Hinduism any day.”

        You’ve not read any Hindu philosophy. If I’m correct, just from reading a few of your comments here, you are from a Desi Muslim background.

        “Give South Asians resource rich lands and they will erect Pakistan, Bangladesh and Sri Lanka.”

        And India and Nepal.
        :)

        • Gay State Girl
          November 23, 2011 at 7:35 PM

          He meant that deliberately.

        • Dota
          November 23, 2011 at 7:44 PM

          “What are you talking about? ”

          Didn’t you get the memo from the RSS?

          I have. And I’m also keenly aware of the impact it has had on Desi Muslims as well. No escaping it.

          “If I’m correct, just from reading a few of your comments here, you are from a Desi Muslim background.”

          Bravo Sherlock. I see that your Tapasyas have given you some insight. If I had to guess, you’re probably a second generation American born confused Desi who doesn’t speak a lick of Hindi and receives his Hindu chauvinist indoctrination at gatherings like these: http://www.sacw.net/DC/CommunalismCollection/ArticlesArchive/bhatiaJan07.html

          “”And India and Nepal.”"

          You’re bragging about India and Nepal? http://robertlindsay.wordpress.com/2010/06/29/india-is-a-shithole/

          Oh Robert, looks like we’re going to have some with this fellow.

        • Asian Philosopher Om Tat Sat
          November 23, 2011 at 7:54 PM

          “I see that your Tapasyas have given you some insight. If I had to guess, you’re probably a second generation American born confused Desi who doesn’t speak a lick of Hindi and receives his Hindu chauvinist indoctrination at gatherings like these”

          You’d be wrong. What have I written that was “Hindu chauvinist”?

        • Gay State Girl
          November 23, 2011 at 8:03 PM

          I was surprised when I first heard Lindsay bashing Hindus. So far, they are the most friendly and respectful people I’ve ever met.

        • Dota
          November 23, 2011 at 8:07 PM

          You’re the second ABCD that’s drifted here and who’s sung the same tune: denial of their Hindutva views, Anti- Islam/Christian views and a glorification of all things Jewish. You’re predictable and fairly unoriginal. Atleast that Hindu facist retard Sudheer Birodhkar is somewhat entertaining to read.

        • Gay State Girl
          November 23, 2011 at 8:11 PM

          What did Minnesota Mom say against Christianity and in favor of Jews?

        • Dota
          November 23, 2011 at 8:13 PM

          “I was surprised when I first heard Lindsay bashing Hindus. So far, they are the most friendly and respectful people I’ve ever met.”

          Paint yourself brown, wear a headscarf and visit Gujarat.

        • Gay State Girl
          November 23, 2011 at 8:31 PM

          “Paint yourself brown”

          I actually did that once. I was trying to be a hot Latina :)

  72. Gay State Girl
    November 23, 2011 at 3:52 PM

    I’ve been reading Steven Walt lately. I find his blog to be fresh and engaging and he and his readers are much less juvenile than Phil and co. I still check in with my boy toy every day, but he doesn’t write his own blog posts; just humerous fake headlines. He enjoys his own notoriety, which is a turn off.

  73. Gay State Girl
    November 23, 2011 at 3:55 PM

    Yes that’s how I see him, more than twice my chronological age, but less than half my age in terms of maturity, and that takes a lot of skills.

  74. Gay State Girl
    November 23, 2011 at 4:06 PM

    I certainly want to end all military and economic aid to Israel, but no military action.
    I don’t know what you mean when you say “put the rabid animal down.” Was that a referrence to Israel’s addiction to militarism and perpetual conflict or the zionist entity as a whole?

    I know a guy named Jon Sigler, who is trying to offer incentives to Israelis to leave, though that only applies to a certain demographic and he does not have enough money to fund it. I know that Henry Kissinger looked into relocating Israel to a sparsely populated land within the US. I don’t know if it would be possible to reason with the settler movement or militant secular Israelis.

    • Robert Lindsay
      November 23, 2011 at 4:14 PM

      Good job. You’re a quick study.

      “The Zionist entity” is indeed the proper term. You may also refer to it as “Israel” in quotes.

      • Gay State Girl
        November 23, 2011 at 4:48 PM

        I’ve seen it referred to as the zionist entity.

        I have mixed feelings on that. I am extremely disallusioned by the status quo, but I feel that a lot of anti zionists are also multicultural or unicultural (those who oppose ethnic/national distinction) extremists.

        Have you heard Henry Kissinger’s latest audio tapes?

        • Asian Philosopher Om Tat Sat
          November 23, 2011 at 4:57 PM

          Jews are smart and do well wherever they live. I don’t understand why Jews want to live in the middle of a dry desert surrounded by backwards people below them in intelligence level when they have the rest of the world to thrive in.

        • Gay State Girl
          November 23, 2011 at 5:05 PM

          Thank you.

          It seems you’re a quick study. Kill the ultra zionists with flattery.

        • Asian Philosopher Om Tat Sat
          November 23, 2011 at 5:15 PM

          Heh. ;)
          Seriously. Jews, with their intelligence, have a lot more to offer the world than just fighting with a bunch of Muslims in a desert. Quite frankly, its beneath you.

        • Gay State Girl
          November 23, 2011 at 5:34 PM

          I agree and I’ve heard many non jews express that belief, only t be met with accusations of antisemitism. Though I am a strong supporter of Jewish nationalism, I concede that it was a fatal mistake to build a Jewish state in a plot of land, with no natural resources to speak of, amid a body of nations who are all committed to its destruction. Stupid, stupid, stupid. and they left my generation of jews with a big mess to clean up.

  75. Bay Area Guy
    November 23, 2011 at 5:32 PM

    GSG, you might find this very interesting.

    http://nymag.com/nymetro/news/culture/features/1478/

    For me, it’s never been either/or. While I’m not an HBDer, I do believe that there are differences between groups, at least to a certain extent. Therefore, I do believe that your average Ashkenazi Jew is smarter than everyone else, with perhaps the exception of Northeast Asians.

    • Gay State Girl
      November 23, 2011 at 5:38 PM

      I’ve seen that. Jewish intelligence evolved through social selection. I generally don’t like talking advertizing jewish intelligence, because it’s counterproductive and will only invite negative attention. I’ve never seen Asians brag about their high IQs (with the exception of the ones who like to frequent this blog.)

      • Bay Area Guy
        November 23, 2011 at 6:01 PM

        I generally don’t like talking advertizing jewish intelligence, because it’s counterproductive and will only invite negative attention.

        A wise decision, in my opinion.

        With very rare exceptions, the vast majority of Asians that I’ve known or observed don’t brag about their intelligence or great success. They try to keep their success on the down low.

        Of course, Jews in a way try to keep their success on the down low, but they fail miserably, because they just can’t stop talking about themselves.

        • Gay State Girl
          November 23, 2011 at 6:03 PM

          Their tragic flaw…

        • Dota
          November 23, 2011 at 6:19 PM

          “Of course, Jews in a way try to keep their success on the down low, but they fail miserably, because they just can’t stop talking about themselves.”

          Not entirely true. Your everyday dumb goy has absolutely no idea about the extent of Jewish power. None whatsoever. I can’t think of a single white person I’ve interacted with in real life who had heard of Abe Foxman.And Abe isn’t even the one calling the shots. You don’t hear much from the Rothschilds, or the Jews in the Federal Reserve, or Jewish Judges ect… You don’t. GSG foolishly assumes that the Foxman and the like are targeting the average joe on the street when in reality they are targeting committed anti semities who are dedicated to exposing jewry’s power. If said individuals are public figures, the intensity of the attack is doubled. The Jews have done a fantastic job at keeping a low profile.

        • Gay State Girl
          November 23, 2011 at 6:33 PM

          Dota
          I was referring primarily Jewish entertainers, writers, and artists and certain politicians (Lieberman, Cantor, Feinstein, Wasserman-Schultz), though those in the corporate world generally keep a low profile.

          Most of ADL affiliated programs (Facing History, No Place for Hate, Museum of Tolerance) are directed at the average joe, not known anti semites.

        • Gay State Girl
          November 23, 2011 at 6:39 PM

          In the eyes of super jews, the greatest sin is not to kill or harm jews, but to overlook their presence. Most super jews are just upset that the majority of the world is indifferent to jews.

        • Bay Area Guy
          November 23, 2011 at 6:57 PM

          Not entirely true. Your everyday dumb goy has absolutely no idea about the extent of Jewish power. None whatsoever. I can’t think of a single white person I’ve interacted with in real life who had heard of Abe Foxman.

          Perhaps that’s my problem, Dota. Most of the people I know are non-white! ;-)

          Based on my experiences, non-whites are much less philo-Semitic and more hip to the Jewish Question than white gentiles are.

          Although, to give my own people some credit, they’re not quite as blind to the Jewish question as one might think.

          Take my father, good SWPL that he is, as an example. For the longest time, he was very PC, philo-Semitic, and for a while would cringe whenever I said anything even slightly critical about Jews.

          Slowly but surely, however, after extensively discussing the Israel lobby, Jewish power, and liberal Jewish hypocrisy, he’s gradually come to agree with some of my points regarding the Jewish Question.

          You’re right, Dota, your average white person is indeed clueless when it comes to the JQ. But they’re not beyond hope. If you discuss it with them long enough and try to make them connect the dots, many of them will start getting it.

          Also, considering you live in Canada, I’m guessing Abe Foxman isn’t as big of a figure there as he is here in the States.

        • Robert Lindsay
          November 23, 2011 at 7:01 PM

          Yep, Canadians do not have to deal with Ape Foxman. Instead, they have to deal with a very nasty fellow by the name of Izzy Asper. Very, very, very bad man.

        • Bay Area Guy
          November 23, 2011 at 7:08 PM

          @ Robert

          Wait, isn’t Izzy Asper dead now?

      • Hacienda
        November 24, 2011 at 11:01 AM

        “They try to keep their success on the down low.”

        Have to. Can’t draw attention to our conquest of the West. At least not yet. Anyway, the Jews and blacks are our proxies.

  76. Bay Area Guy
    November 23, 2011 at 7:06 PM

    To make one more point, I think what annoys people about Jews is the way so many of them treat their success/influence as if it’s some sort of dirty secret. Despite the fact that Jewish power is very evident for those who know where to look, you’re forbidden to talk about it.

    At least with white gentiles, you’re allowed to publicly rant about them or denounce their power/power structure. People like Tim Wise (who has consistently denied even the existence of Jewish power, going so far as saying that Jews are not even disproportionately powerful!) can publicly go on CNN and denounce white people.

    Ditto for tenured professors such as Robert Jensen, or gadflies like Noel Ignatiev. And stand-up comedians. And teachers. Etc.

    Say anything about Jews, however, and you’re finished. Even if you don’t actually say anything bad about Jews as a whole, you get viciously attacked. Just look at what happened to Mearsheimer and Walt, as well as Norman Finkelstein.

    Heck, if you were to say that Jews control synagogues or the state of Israel, you’d be called anti-Semitic!

    “What, how dare you! Jews don’t ‘control’ Israel. Individuals who happen to be Jewish do, and their Jewishness does not impact on their decisions!”

  77. Asian Philosopher Om Tat Sat
    November 23, 2011 at 7:30 PM

    People are jealous of Jews because despite being a small minority, they tend to rise to the top and dominate many fields.

    Om Shalom!

  78. Gay State Girl
    November 23, 2011 at 7:31 PM

    Gay Area Guy
    Do you really read that rag Mondoweiss? I am actually not offended by antisemitism (although the readers do go overboard to a point in which it is counterproductive) but I don’t like the multiculturalists and I have a particular aversion to uniculturalists (the ones who want to do away with ethnic distinction and cultural identity completely) “why does he have to wear a meaningless piece of cloth on his head? Don’t we worship the same God?”

  79. Dota
    November 23, 2011 at 7:34 PM

    “”Take my father, good SWPL that he is, as an example. For the longest time, he was very PC, philo-Semitic, and for a while would cringe whenever I said anything even slightly critical about Jews.

    Slowly but surely, however, after extensively discussing the Israel lobby, Jewish power, and liberal Jewish hypocrisy, he’s gradually come to agree with some of my points regarding the Jewish Question.”"

    Exactly.

    Take my boss as another example. She’s a SWPL person who loves experiencing ‘foreign cultures’ and positively despises her own (I knew that recommending her to take a history course at the University was a bad idea). But after cautiously bringing up the JQ even she agreed that it was ‘annoying’ that whites are reminded about the Holocaust whereas nobody gives 2 shits about the millions of Russians who perished. She now also actively scans the Casts of TV shows and movies for the Bergs and Kohns and Cohens, which is a good start for her. I think that ‘anti-semitism’ is rooted deeply and lies dormant in the psyches of most white people, sort of like a defense mechanism. Jews do keep a low profile and only draw attention to themselves through positive stereotypes, such as Family guy fawning over brilliance of Jewish Comedians.

    • Gay State Girl
      November 23, 2011 at 7:40 PM

      “Jews do keep a low profile and only draw attention to themselves through positive stereotypes, such as Family guy fawning over brilliance of Jewish Comedians.”

      Jews can’t shut up about themselves. They talk about Jewishness even when it’s irrelevant.

      Woody Allen also brings up negative Jewish stereotypes.

      • Asian Philosopher Om Tat Sat
        November 23, 2011 at 7:50 PM

        “They talk about Jewishness even when it’s irrelevant.”

        But most are not religious fanatics. Their “Jewish” talk is mainly cultural, not religious. They are also not insufferable proselytizers like Muslims and born again Christians.

      • Dota
        November 23, 2011 at 7:50 PM

        Good for Woody.

      • Asian Philosopher Om Tat Sat
        November 23, 2011 at 8:04 PM

        Woody Allen is funny. The Jewish people I know have a sharp intellect, terrific wit and ability to poke fun at themselves. I appreciate that they don’t try to prosyletize. Of the 3 Abrahamics they are preferred and truly the most secular and forward thinking.

    • Steve
      November 23, 2011 at 8:58 PM

      I like Jews. I’m not a fan of Israel or AIPEC or the Jewish role in the American plutocracy but that doesn’t represent all Jews and I like Jews generally. There have been so many great Jews that have excelled in their field- comedy, music movies, science- and made the world a better place to live in and advanced knowledge. Most of them aren’t conniving and bad and all that stuff. They’re ordinary and decent and civilized and trying to be happy and successful, like everyone. And whatever they put their mind to, they’re good at, even the bad ones doing bad stuff.

      If they were accepted and welcomed in Europe through history, instead of persecuted and stigmatised, culminating in Nazism, it probably never would have come to Zionism. And once it came to Israel, if they weren’t surrounded by people who wanted to destroy them and tried to, the Israeli state wouldn’t have become so ruthless and some of the Jews there so radical and crazy (some!).

      How desperate they must have been after the holocaust. Its at least understandable that they would want to take matters into their own hands and push for a state of their own when they had been mistreated wherever they stayed and eventually nearly exterminated. They were traumatised. Plus in the wake of the holocaust, special arrangements being made for them must have seemed quite reasonable, after what they had been through. Later on, as too often happens, the abused became the abusers. And people who see themselves as under threat, hit out, fear leads to hatred. I’m not condoning it. I’m just trying to understand it….. And I actually sympathise with the Palestinian cause and Palestinian point of view.

      Now lets hope the crazies, on both sides, don’t get their way and the more sensible and good people do.

      • Steve
        November 23, 2011 at 9:00 PM

        maybe I should get a tumblr or account or something, all these long posts.

      • Gay State Girl
        November 23, 2011 at 9:03 PM

        “How desperate they must have been after the holocaust. Its at least understandable that they would want to take matters into their own hands and push for a state of their own when they had been mistreated wherever they stayed and eventually nearly exterminated.”

        Most Holocaust survivors would have preferred to immigrate to the US.

        • Steve
          November 23, 2011 at 10:29 PM

          okay fair enough, maybe they should have been allowed in. America could have even given them a chunk of Iowa or something lol. I like Jews anyway, that’s the main point. :-)

        • Gay State Girl
          November 23, 2011 at 10:36 PM

          “I like Jews anyway, that’s the main point.”
          Thank you. I actually support Jewish nationalism for the preservation of various Jewish cultures. I just don’t think that the current location was a good place. I would have preferred a more sparsely populated place like Kimberely, Western Australia.

    • Bay Area Guy
      November 25, 2011 at 11:44 AM

      Jews do keep a low profile and only draw attention to themselves through positive stereotypes, such as Family guy fawning over the brilliance of Jewish Comedians.

      Family Guy has done more than that.

      Take, for example, the controversial episode “When You Wish Upon a Weinstein”, which was actually banned from mainstream network television, and was only broadcast on Adult Swim a couple of years later.

      In this episode, Peter is undergoing financial problems so he gets a, yup, you guessed it, Jewish accountant to help him out.

      (and through this whole process, Peter and his family are openly espousing Jewish stereotypes. ie. Peter deliberately got the Jewish guy to help him out, despite not knowing he was an accountant)

      After that incident, Peter then decides he wants to convert Chris to Judaism, because he figures that if Chris becomes Jewish, he’ll become smart and successful.

      When Peter approaches a rabbi about converting to Judaism (specifically he wants Chris to have a Bar Mitzvah), the rabbi admonishes Peter by telling him that getting a Bar Mitzvah requires years of hard work and study.

      Upon hearing that, Peter, get this, says “but if my son knew how to work hard and study, he wouldn’t have to become Jewish in the first place, right?”

      Anyway, this episode was banned for being “anti-Semitic,” but if you actually read between the lines, the episode was anything BUT “anti-Semitic.”

      In actuality, the episode is making fun of the white goyim, anti-Semites, and is in fact espousing positive stereotypes about Jews (ie. the Jewish characters are intelligent, hard working, helpful, Judaism is seen as fostering hard work and study, something the white goyim don’t have, etc).

      Another example is in one episode where Mayor West is plagued by a scandal, and so he takes a look at a list of things he can do to distract from the scandal. Two of the items on the list say:

      1) Scapegoat the Jews
      2)Scapegoat the Jews again (call them “New Yorkers”)

      Of course, there, Family Guy is deliberately going out of its way to raise the whole specter of “anti-Semitism.”

      I mean, really. How many mainstream politicians attack or scapegoat Jews? And if they do, how often do they get away with it?

      That, of course, are a few of the many subtle ways in which Family Guy makes fun the of the white goyim/anti-Semites (because in Jewish peoples’ minds, the two are the same) and elevates the reputation/status of Jews.

      Though the creator of Family Guy, Seth MacFarlane, is a white gentile, many of the voice actors (Alex Borstein, Seth Green, Mila Kunis) and writers are Jewish, and it shows.

      • Gay State Girl
        November 25, 2011 at 1:16 PM

        Gay Area Guy
        It is true that Family Guy is more anti cracker than anti Jewish or anti Arab. There was an episode in which the Griffins travel to Israel to plant trees, and Peter swears to the Israeli scout that he can not tell the difference between Jews and Arabs and goes on about stereotypes from botrh groups. Both Jewish and Arab anti defamation organizations branded the episode as insulting but it did not reflect poorly upon either group as it did with crackers.

        • Bay Area Guy
          November 25, 2011 at 3:19 PM

          There was an episode in which the Griffins travel to Israel to plant trees, and Peter swears to the Israeli scout that he can not tell the difference between Jews and Arabs and goes on about stereotypes from botrh groups.

          I remember that episode.

          What so many people either don’t understand or refuse to understand is that whenever Family Guy invokes stereotypes of Jews or other groups, they’re rarely (if ever) actually making fun of the groups themselves.

          Through hyperbole and having the main white characters like Peter espousing such stereotypes, they’re making fun of white gentiles

          The movie Harold and Kumar Escape From Guantanamo Bay (directed and produced by two Jewish guys) is another classic example of this.

          The villain of the movie, a white goy, openly revels in stereotypes of other racial/ethnic groups, including Jews.

          There’s one scene where he even pours a can of pennies in front of two Jewish guys, in an attempt to make them pick them up.

          Of course, there are a few idiots who would say, “they’re bringing up offensive Jewish stereotypes!” Uh, no idiot, they’re not making fun of Jews.

          In that movie, and in various Family Guy episodes, they’re really insulting whites.

        • Bay Area Guy
          November 25, 2011 at 3:22 PM

          Okay, occasionally, maybe shows like Family Guy do make fun of Jews.

          But the stereotypes about Jews are either benign, silly (like stereotyping Jews and their lack of athleticism or the fact that they eat bagels), or are exaggerated in order to make fun of the white goyim.

          They never brand Jews as bigoted, arrogant, etc.

          Likewise, I have YET to see Family Guy ever make fun of Israel or Israelis. They’ve mocked Palestinians, but never Israelis.

          The Simpsons, to their credit, did make fun of Israel and Israelis, though of course they knew their limits, and didn’t go anywhere near too far.

        • Bay Area Guy
          November 25, 2011 at 3:24 PM

          And another thing.

          It pisses me off the way atheists like Seth MacFarlane (whom Brian, the talking dog’s, character represents) claim to be anti-religion, when in reality they’re only anti-Christianity.

          I can’t recall how many times Family Guy has insulted and defamed Christianity, and yet you rarely hear them insult Islam, much less Judaism.

          I’m not even a Christian myself, but to me, this is just another manifestation of Jewish power and the ridicule of the white goyim.

        • Gay State Girl
          November 25, 2011 at 3:32 PM

          I’m not mad about the fact that criticism of Judaism is taboo, but I think the MSM’s exclusive ridicule of Christianity has more to do with the way Fundamentalist Christians behave than it does with Jewish power.

        • Bay Area Guy
          November 25, 2011 at 3:47 PM

          @ GSG

          True, fundamentalist Christians don’t acquit themselves very well, and I myself don’t have a high opinion of them.

          Still, the amount of attention that they receive from the MSM is beyond absurd.

      • Gay State Girl
        November 25, 2011 at 3:27 PM

        Gay Area Guy
        A specific breed of whites, though the Griffins are from the Suburban Northeast, which is hardly known as a breeding ground for crackers (according to pop culture.)

        With regards to Dota, don’t feed the troll. I didn’t say anything chauvinistic.

  80. Asian Philosopher Om Tat Sat
    November 23, 2011 at 7:40 PM

    Oh those pesky Bergs, Kohns and Cohens. Always using their brains and moving ahead. We can’t have that now can we?

  82. Asian Philosopher Om Tat Sat
    November 23, 2011 at 8:12 PM

    Gay State Girl
    November 23, 2011 at 8:03 PM
    “I was surprised when I first heard Lindsay bashing Hindus. So far, they are the most friendly and respectful people I’ve ever met.”

    Thanks Gay State Girl!

    Lindsay wasn’t bashing Hindus, but rather the current state that India is in. The environment of the cities and towns in much of North India is indeed in a very big mess.

    Such a shame when you consider what great cultures and civilizations that area of the world arose from. There’s a complacency that accompanies greatness and then a downfall. I see it happening in the Western world currently.

    The East is again rising while the West falls.

    Samsara.

    • Dota
      November 23, 2011 at 8:26 PM

      I think the cow piss has gone straight to your head. The rising ‘East’ is East Asia with its Zen and Confucian ideals and NOT south Asia. South Asia has virtually nothing to contribute to the world as far as ideology/ ethics go. You mentioned complacency? Ever wonder why? It’s built directly into Hinduism. The Gita states that there is inaction in Action and action in inaction. In other words look within (this is what meditation is about). However this philosophy is entirely bogus and has resulted in a society where people are oblivious to the hell they live in. As your own Hindutva cheerleader VS Naipaul himself admits Indian behavior “is parasitic. It depends on the continued activity of others, the trains running, the presses printing… It needs the world but surrenders the organisation of the world to others” (India: A Wounded Civilisation). Read more in Aakar Patel’s article here http://www.livemint.com/2009/09/10210732/Why-Hindus-should-weed-out-Git.html

      • Asian Philosopher Om Tat Sat
        November 23, 2011 at 8:35 PM

        ” The Gita states that there is inaction in Action and action in inaction. In other words look within (this is what meditation is about). ”

        Kill all kafr is so much better, eh?

        “South Asia has virtually nothing to contribute to the world as far as ideology/ ethics go. ”

        Yes, all the Yoga, Buddhist and Kirtan enthusiasts here have proven that.

        • Dota
          November 23, 2011 at 9:05 PM

          Yoga is a substitute for liberalism? or for Neo Conservatism? Or Marxism? I’m talking about ideologies idiot. Keep it straight.

        • Steve
          November 23, 2011 at 9:20 PM

          “South Asia has virtually nothing to contribute to the world as far as ideology/ ethics go. ”

          Gandhi? the Dalia Lama?

          Where are the Tibetan suicide bombers?

        • Dota
          November 23, 2011 at 9:45 PM

          Steve

          Political ideologies, systems of law, economic systems ect… Gandhi’s philosophy was a fad which nobody in India takes seriously. He was murdered by Nathuram Godse, a member of the Hindu nationalist RSS, and whose ideology this idiot Om Stat subscribes to.

          “Where are the Tibetan suicide bombers?”

          To each their own. Some prefer suicide bombings, some prefer scalping, who am I to judge the methods that people use to resist?

        • Steve
          November 23, 2011 at 10:24 PM

          Dota,

          Gandhi’s non-violent activism was instrumental in the Independence struggle. A pretty historically significant fad! And an inspiration for subsequent protest movements. He showed an alternative to violence and the world has seen it even if you cant quantify the effect. We could argue the specifics of that but in any case the fact is that India and Tibet have a lot of contribute to the world as far as philosophical and ethical systems go.

          Tibetan scalpers??

      • Gay State Girl
        November 23, 2011 at 8:49 PM

        “The rising ‘East’ is East Asia with its Zen and Confucian ideals and NOT south Asia.”

        Confusion

    • Steve
      November 23, 2011 at 9:07 PM

      China is rising. Maybe India will come up later but they’re way behind at the moment. I do see signs of a civilisation in decline in the west and a civilisation on the assent in China. But maybe the west has had its day and given to the world what it can. Maybe its time for China to become the world leading civilisation. That could lead to spiritual and philosophical advances for humanity s a whole because China and India have profound religious and philosophical systems. I’m just concerned about the lack of democracy in China. The thing is though, Chinese leaders are very competent and successful at guiding economic development. Western politicians are incompetent and corrupt. best. i like Hindus too.

  83. Asian Philosopher Om Tat Sat
    November 23, 2011 at 8:25 PM

    @Dota, You’re the second ABCD that’s drifted here and who’s sung the same tune: denial of their Hindutva views, Anti- Islam/Christian views and a glorification of all things Jewish. You’re predictable and fairly unoriginal. Atleast that Hindu facist retard Sudheer Birodhkar is somewhat entertaining to read.”

    Again, you fail to provide ANY evidence whatsoever.

    I said that all 3 Abrahamic faiths lack philosophical content and that the Sat Darshan provides deep philosophical content. I appreciate Jews not proselytizing but I am not anti-Christian or anti-Muslim individuals as long as they don’t try to get me to convert.

    What about any of that do you have a problem with, exactly?

    “Yet despite this denial, the very same Hindu thinking that they have spurned dominates their worldview – the lack of respect for human life, casteist thinking and dominance of emotion over reason that are characteristic of Hinduism.”

    Would you consider the above an anti-Hindu statement?

    If yes, please explain. If no, please explain.

    If yes, do you personally feel it is ok for you to be “anti-Hindu” but wrong for someone else to be what you consider “anti-Muslim” or “anti-Christian”.

    • Dota
      November 23, 2011 at 8:47 PM

      “Would you consider the above an anti-Hindu statement?

      If yes, please explain. ”

      ‘Hinduism’ is a highly artificial religion. I’ll paste something I wrote here a while ago:

      [India’s religion was no different than other pagan faiths, ie it was dominated by cults and rituals, no overarching doctrine that prescribed a coherent universal world view. In the North, the cults of Ram and Krishna were popular whereas in the south, the cults of Shiva and Vishnu (with millions of other cults in between). This is not unlike Europe where cults such as that of Dionysus and Aphrodite were quite popular. They related to others on the basis of race and ethnicity and so did the Indians. The british gave them the identity of Hindu and gave them their own language ‘Hindi’ which would complement this new identity. The rationale was to create an antagonistic group within India to undermine the remnants of Muslim rule and in future undermine any attempts at nationalism. John Gilchrist, the head master of a school in calcutta gave this language the name ‘hindi’ and assigned it the Sanskrit alphabet. ]

      The closest thing that Hinduism has to a doctrine is the caste system (and reincarnation).

      I do not like the philosophies of Hinduism. I think they are parasitic and solve no real human problems. As Aakar Patel points out, the goal is to liberate oneself from the circle of birth and re birth on this Earth, which is why there is no incentive to make the world a better place, which is ultimately where the introverted nature of Buddhism comes from. The Hindu concept of charity (dana) is a joke. Charity is not to be given to the Shudras, but to the ‘poor’ Brahmins who cannot make a living since they are too busy deciphering the the nature of Brahman, the incomprehensible reality. Zero emphasis on social justice. This is the reason why Hinduism works in a void. When thrust into modernity, you get modern India: complacent, parasitic, de humanizing and an over all shit hole.

      Feel free to criticize Islamic and Christian doctrines as well, I’ve already done so. But don’t pretend that Hinduism offers any solutions, it doesn’t. If the west is to fall, let East Asia inherit the world. I’d rather be reincarnated as a cockroach than live in a world governed by the ideals of Hinduism.

      • Gay State Girl
        November 23, 2011 at 8:55 PM

        East Asia a benevolent society? Don’t make me laugh.

        East Asians value perfection to the point that they abandon severely flawed individuals. Elderly were considered a liability in Japanese villages and were cast into the wilderness to fend for themselves.

      • Asian Philosopher Om Tat Sat
        November 23, 2011 at 9:06 PM

        “If the west is to fall, let East Asia inherit the world. ”

        Its not up to me, sorry.

        You write, “India’s religion was no different than other pagan faiths”

        If that was true – SO WHAT? Why the need amongst Muslims to denigrade other religions? So what if it was like Euro Paganism? So what if it was like Aphrodite cults? So what?

        See, this right here is what you Muslims don’t get – RELIGIOUS FREEDOM.

        Just try to hold the concept of religious freedom in your mind for a moment. Just try.

        There is no such thing as one Hindu religion. It is foreign name given to South Asians who came from a diversity of cultures and traditions, but you are wrong that there is no overarching theme to all of these. There is. You would have to study the major texts of Samkhya, Vedanta, Yoga, Nyaya, etc in order to understand this. And as a South Asian I will dare to say that you SHOULD have, but you didn’t.

        As far as “offering solutions” – again, that is up to each individual to decide for himself or herself, not me, and not Islam.

        There are many non-South Asian people who are finding their own personal solutions in one of many branches of “Hinduism” . That’s the thing about religious freedom Dota. If someone wants to meditate, if they want to do a ritual, if they want to offer incense to an IDOL (oh no!)

        THEY CAN!

        As far as what you wrote about Hindi, the various languages of the part of India where Hindi is spoken are very similar to one another, such Bhojpuri, Braj, etc. Hindi became like a lingua franca for that area. For you to say it was given to be the “official Hindu language” is ridiculous, considering that Hindus have always come from different linguistic backgrounds.

        I’m shocked I have to teach an Indian there own history. Or are you a Pakistani?

        • Dota
          November 23, 2011 at 9:29 PM

          There’s not much you can teach me sorry. I didn’t learn my Indian history from a VHP seminar. Anyhow the rest of your post is just Hindu apologetics and the usual rubbish I hear from the Saffron Brigade. I can see from your last post that you’ve run out of arguments so this debate seems over.

          इस ब्लॉग पर हिंदुत्व चुतीयों को बरदाश नहीं किया जाता है . जाओ और किसी और को तुंग करो

        • Gay State Girl
          November 23, 2011 at 9:36 PM

          I do NOT want East Asia to inherit the world and I’m tired of all the worship directed at them. East Asia regards disabled individuals and the elderly as worthless and does not allow them to participate in society. East Asians abandon their children if they show the slightest hint of imfection. They inflicted much pain on their women through foot binding.
          The West shall prevail. It might take a while, but an open, accepting society ultimately beats a totalitarian society, as many talented Asians, who choose to reside in the West will tell you.

  84. Asian Philosopher Om Tat Sat
    November 23, 2011 at 8:39 PM

    “The rising ‘East’ is East Asia with its Zen and Confucian ideals and NOT south Asia. ”

    And Zen Buddhism originated WHERE?

    You seem to forget that Buddha was a SOUTH ASIAN.

    I’ve met many Desi Muslims like you who are absolutely blind to anything good about pre-Islamic South Asia. You are ashamed of your roots and it boggles my mind as to why, so I will ask you….

    WHY?

    • Dota
      November 23, 2011 at 9:01 PM

      Yeah and Christianity was born in the Middle East. It isn’t the birthplace of a religion which is important, but the cultures that embrace it and reshape it in their own image. In Europe it forged a remarkable civilization that has shaped the modern world. The filth and squalor of India is Hindu/Buddhist philosophy taken to its logical conclusion, a dead end. They ultimately address no problems and offer no solutions. This is the reason why Mosques and Churches have congregational spaces, but Hindu temples do not. Because Hinduism isn’t concerned with making this world a better place. Hinduism isn’t concerned about Man’s relation to fellow man, hence the lack of social justice.

      “”I’ve met many Desi Muslims like you who are absolutely blind to anything good about pre-Islamic South Asia. You are ashamed of your roots and it boggles my mind as to why, so I will ask you….

      WHY?”"

      I’ve already told you why. I used to be a hardcore Indian nationalist during my teens. Had I met Robert 10 years ago, I would have decked him out. But I’m on excellent terms with him because I’ve abandoned by baseless nationalism. After observing the 2002 Gujarat riots I came to realize that there was something inherently fucked up about Indian culture and Indian morals. In any western country someone like Modi would be impeached, in India he’s running for Prime Minister.

      • Asian Philosopher Om Tat Sat
        November 23, 2011 at 9:13 PM

        “Yeah and Christianity was born in the Middle East. It isn’t the birthplace of a religion which is important, but the cultures that embrace it and reshape it in their own image. ”

        Agree. The non-Asian Hindus and Buddhists I know are more serious about their practices than many Asians of the same.

        I’m not a nationalist of any country by the way. My concern is philosophy and ethics and for that traditional South Asian schools of though simple can’t be beat.

      • Asian Philosopher Om Tat Sat
        November 23, 2011 at 9:18 PM

        “This is the reason why Mosques and Churches have congregational spaces, but Hindu temples do not.”

        WHAT??? What mandirs have you been to? I see why you don’t know anything about Sat Darshan. You’ve not attended any classes.

        • Dota
          November 23, 2011 at 9:35 PM

          “WHAT??? What mandirs have you been to? ”

          Several. I’ve seen many in Mumbai, including the one on Shepard road in Byculla, just before the police thaney on the route to claire road (which was where I used to live).

      • Steve
        November 23, 2011 at 11:07 PM

        “They (Buddhism and Hinduism) ultimately address no problems and offer no solutions.”

        No problems or solutions? Only ignorance and suffering (problem) and the way out of ignorance and suffering (solution). Its not just concerned with incidental social problems but the fundamental psychological root of all pain, suffering and dissatisfaction. In other words, the ultimate problems. And it related this to the nature of mind and the nature of the universe. Its profound.

        Furthermore, the highest ideal in Mahayana Buddhism is to free oneself from ignorance and suffering in order to work towards freeing all other beings out of love and compassion.

        AND Buddhist or Hindu philosophy don’t logically lead to the conclusion that we shouldn’t help poor people because its their karma, even though in Hinduism it has been tied to the caste system and used in that way. There’s nothing logically in the karma doctrine to say a bad situation can’t be improved or that we shouldn’t try..If anything, logically, it gives an an incentive to help others and make the world a better place.

        ‘In 1750, India produced about 23% of world manufacturing output. China probably produced around 33% of global manufacturing, and Europe about 23%’ (Marks 2002: 97; Kennedy 1989: 149; Perlin 1983; the source of these figures is the French economic historian Paul Bairoch 1997).

        The Indian economy was ruined by colonialism. India and China are on their way back up again.

  85. Gay State Girl
    November 23, 2011 at 8:43 PM

    Asian Philosopher Om Tat Sat
    Also, unlike Christianity and Islam, Judaism does not condemn non believers to eternal damnation. We do believe in Gehenna (Purging of the souls, including jews) but no one remains in Gehenna for more than 11 months.

    • Asian Philosopher Om Tat Sat
      November 23, 2011 at 8:51 PM

      Like I said GSG, Jews are the best, and overall smartest, of the lot. LOL.

      I’ve lived as a non-Abrahamic in predominantly Muslim areas, predominantly Christian areas and predominantly Jewish areas. My best experiences has been in the Jewish areas. Very open people.

      I likey!

      • Steve
        November 23, 2011 at 9:22 PM

        Not surprised. Very civilised. I’ve got to say though, I’ve met a lot of warm and friendly Muslims.

        • Asian Philosopher Om Tat Sat
          November 23, 2011 at 9:27 PM

          Of course Steve. Any person will be warm and friendly if they are a warm and friendly individual. My beef with Muslims and Christians is not that they are not warm and friendly. Its that I’ve had probably hundreds of experiences of them trying to convert me. They are very, very, very uncomfortable with the idea of religious freedom.

        • Steve
          November 23, 2011 at 9:37 PM

          I think we are quite like minded Asian philosopher. Make sure you see my reply to you higher up about China.

          Its interesting what you said about Muslims and Christians. I bet they don’t try to convert each other as much as they try to convert a Hindu. My guess is they are probably more familiar and accepting of each other. They know where they stand with each other.They think you are idolaters or polytheists or something and you don’t have the bible, the Jewish God. They don’t realise the profound philosophical traditions.of Hinduism, like the Vedanta- the Advaita Vedanta- and so on.

        • Asian Philosopher Om Tat Sat
          November 23, 2011 at 9:39 PM

          And on might say, as Dota already has, that Judaism is “tribal” because it is not a “universal religion” that seeks to include the whole world, but rather opts to stay exclusive.

          I see this as a GOOD thing. If a non-Jew wants to convert, he or she may even be DISCOURAGED from doing so and encouraged to stay in his or her family’s own faith. When he or she does convert they have to undergo serious study, therefore those who do convert will know their stuff.

          I find this much more benevolent than taking a “we must save the world” approach as a guise for “we must force our myths on other people” which, as time as shown us, destroyed cultures.

          Islam and Christianity are the religious versions of “White Man’s Burden”. They are RELIGIOUS COLONIALISM and RELIGIOUS IMPERIALISM.

          Dota:
          “South Asia has virtually nothing to contribute to the world as far as ideology/ ethics go. ”

          Steve:
          Gandhi? the Dalia Lama?
          Where are the Tibetan suicide bombers?

          Oh Steve, didn’t you know – Martin Luther King got nothing when he got the idea of non-violent protest from Gandhi? Nothing at all!

        • Dota
          November 23, 2011 at 9:39 PM

          “”Its that I’ve had probably hundreds of experiences of them trying to convert me. They are very, very, very uncomfortable with the idea of religious freedom.”"

          Kinda like these guys?

          http://www.thehindu.com/news/cities/Mangalore/article2608776.ece

        • Steve
          November 23, 2011 at 9:43 PM

          “Oh Steve, didn’t you know – Martin Luther King got nothing when he got the idea of non-violent protest from Gandhi? Nothing at all!”

          Explain.

        • Asian Philosopher Om Tat Sat
          November 23, 2011 at 9:46 PM

          Steve, “They know where they stand with each other.They think you are idolaters or polytheists or something and you don’t have the bible, the Jewish God. They don’t realise the profound philosophical traditions.of Hinduism, like the Vedanta- the Advaita Vedanta- and so on.”

          You are spot on with that Steve. Even worse though is HINDUS who don’t know their stuff and are thus easily baffled by Abrahmic mythic propaganda. They are made to feel ashamed of their culture and heritage and they follow suit, like good little heathen and kafr slaves.

          But you know what? Hinduism’s philosophies, cultures and traditions have stood the test of time and multiple violent onslaughts from invaders. Rather than changing the Hindus, Hinduism has changed those who sought to change it.

          Along with the rise of Asia we are seeing an Asianization in the thinking of the world and the way it does spirituality.

          Om Shalom!

        • Gay State Girl
          November 23, 2011 at 9:49 PM

          “Islam and Christianity are the religious versions of “White Man’s Burden”. They are RELIGIOUS COLONIALISM and RELIGIOUS IMPERIALISM.”

          Amen.

        • Steve
          November 23, 2011 at 9:59 PM

          What bothers me AP, is when you get these atheism vs religion debates in the west, which are usually raging on the internet, the critics of religion never engage with the profound Hindu and Buddhist metaphysics and the anti-materialist arguments from India. Its always framed as science vs naive creationism or crude how can there be a personal creator being in the sky type of thing. The materialists assume the high ground but they are arguing against straw men, in a way.

        • Steve
          November 23, 2011 at 10:00 PM

          *intellectual high ground

    • Steve
      November 23, 2011 at 11:18 PM

      So Judaism avoids one of the worst ideas in the history of mankind. That’s good to know.

      • Gay State Girl
        November 23, 2011 at 11:35 PM

        Yes. Judaism is concerned with one’s time on earth. There are various interpretations of afterlife, but the main objective of Judaism is not to enter heaven.

        • Steve
          November 23, 2011 at 11:56 PM

          the bad idea I’m talking about is eternal hellfire. Its got to be one of the most disturbing, horrible ideas ever conceived. How can you get a worse notion than eternal suffering and torture? If God is all knowing and all powerful, he could presumably stop it at any moment but he just chooses to watch you suffer forever. And he is supposed to love you (and be merciful- that’s the emphasis of Islam). A human parent couldn’t bare this for a moment. If people really thought about this, would they believe it? How could they think that a never ending punishment for a finite crime is just?

          A lot of people seem to just not really think things through, but to tell this to a sensitive person is potentially quite cruel.

        • ski
          November 25, 2011 at 12:52 PM

          I agree GSG and Steve; the belief in eternal hellfire is probably the worst idea in Christianity.

          However, in defense of Christianity, I don’t think the belief in eternal hellfire is essential to Christianity even though it has been near-universal for some time. You can make a very compelling case that the earliest Christians didn’t believe in eternal hell.

          It’s interesting that you bring up Gehenna, GSG, because in the original Greek of the New Testament “hell” is in almost all cases actually “Gehenna.” “Hell” is Germanic word and isn’t in the original Greek Gospels at all. What’s translated as “hell” is almost always “Gehenna” or sometime “Hades,” or “Sheol.” I could go on and on about this subject for pages, but to keep it short: if one is aware of the Jewish beliefs about Gehenna, then it seems pretty obvious he’s not talking about the concept of “hell” at all; same thing with Sheol. Hades is of course a Greek word that most Jews in the highly Hellenized Eastern territories of the Roman empire would have been aware of, and while Hades is certainly not a good place, it also isn’t “hell.”

          Even though the belief in eternal damnation for many/most people is pretty widespread in Christianity, it’s not quite as bad as you might think. It’s decently well accepted in Catholicism and many prominent theologians have endorsed it; in any case it certainly isn’t considered heresy to believe in universal salvation. As far as the Eastern Orthodox, there have been several very prominent theologians and now Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev who accept some form of eventual universal salvation. With Protestants it depends a lot on the Church but the idea has a lot of traction and is coming to be seen as at least a non-heretical possibility by a lot of Protestants.

  88. Gay State Girl
    November 23, 2011 at 9:52 PM

    Om Shalom.

    • Dota
      November 23, 2011 at 9:54 PM

      As I said before, a race that loves the tribe deserves the tribe.

      • Gay State Girl
        November 23, 2011 at 9:58 PM

        What on earth?
        I agree with what he said. Say what you will about Jews, but they did not eliminate other religions or cultures on a large scale like Christianity and Islam did.

        • Dota
          November 23, 2011 at 10:05 PM

          And Judaism never created anything worthwhile either. Ancient Israel was hardly the center for mathematics, philosophy and science for its time. Jewish achievements were made within Islamic and Christian domains, as Einstein and Maimonides would attest to if they could.

        • Asian Philosopher Om Tat Sat
          November 23, 2011 at 10:07 PM

          GSG, the above comment from Dota is why Islam is so problematic. Muslims do not understand that concept of religious freedom. Religious freedom in their ideology extends only to Christians and Jews. Don’t even try to reason with Dota. It’s useless. In the Muslim mind all idol worshipping kafrs need to convert or have their cultures destroyed.

        • Gay State Girl
          November 23, 2011 at 10:15 PM

          Dota
          It is not the responsibility of religion to create civilization or law or to contribute to the advancement sciences, though 1/2 of rabbis in medieval Spain were also physicians and Orthodox Jews do not prevent the development of sciences. The lubavitcher rebbe Menachem Schneerson also held an engineering degree from the Sorbonne.

          The purpose of religion should be to provide it’s followers with a sense of spirituality or meaning.

        • Dota
          November 23, 2011 at 10:21 PM

          No Om Tat, you’ve just made up a bogus argument and now you’re attributing it to me. I’m actually quite non religious but my problem is with you bashing the Abrahamic traditions using arguments which were handed to you by self hating Whites and Hindutva turds. You don’t even bother addressing the violence that Muslims, Christians and Dalits experience at the hands of those who are also not ‘ashamed of being Hindu.’ Indeed the slogan of the RSS is ‘गर्व से कहो हम हिन्दू है’ . And we saw quite a bit of Hindu pride in 2002. If you had been around here longer you would realize that I’ve condemned the treatment of Hindus in Pakistan and Bangladesh. I also despise the Taliban and Wahabism. But Hindu philosophy is quite frankly garbage. You may think you understand the schools of Hinduism by a few quick scans of their wiki pages but I’ve seen those philosophies play out first hand in India. And unlike you my ABCD friend, I speak not one, but 2 Indian languages (3 if you decide to treat Urdu separately). Why don’t you translate the RSS slogan stated above for the benifit of the white folks here? Impress them with your knowledge of our ‘matra bhasha.’ It would be quite the spectacle if the resident guru of Hinduism could not read an ‘akshar’ of Hindi ;)

        • Atheist Indian
          November 23, 2011 at 10:30 PM

          @ Dota
          It is not like traditional Islam or Christianity contributed much to science or philosophy. Most of the cultural and scientific advancements during the ‘golden period’ of Islam and Christianity happened in spite of these religions, not because of them. I’d hazard a guess that most of the philosophers and mathematicians of this time leaned more towards agnosticism or atheism, they just didn’t reveal their (lack of) faith because they would have been persecuted if they did.

  89. Asian Philosopher Om Tat Sat
    November 23, 2011 at 10:01 PM

    Steve and GSG, I want you to see something that is very common

    Dota
    November 23, 2011 at 9:45 PM
    Steve

    Political ideologies, systems of law, economic systems ect… Gandhi’s philosophy was a fad which nobody in India takes seriously. He was murdered by Nathuram Godse, a member of the Hindu nationalist RSS, and whose ideology this idiot Om Stat subscribes to.

    “Where are the Tibetan suicide bombers?”

    To each their own. Some prefer suicide bombings, some prefer scalping, who am I to judge the methods that people use to resist?

    -

    Dota says I subscribe to the “ideology of Gandhi’s assassin simply because I am NOT ASHAMED to be a Hindu and my personal opinion after many years of reading is that the 7 Schools of Hindu Philosophical thought is the deepest.

    You see, I am not supposed to have such an opinion. In Dota’s mind and those who think like him/her, to not be embarassed over a non-Abrahamic religion means that one is some sort of crazed and violent fanatic, never mind that my religion teaches AHIMSA, or non-violence and also RELIGIOUS FREEDOM and FREEDOM of THOUGHT.

    See how that works? If I don’t think the Abrahamic faiths are the best thing since sliced manna from heave, that of course must mean that I want the people who follow them dead.

    There’s no in between with these people. Its all or nothing.

    Which brings me to Dota’s last sentence.

    Steve: “Where are the Tibetan suicide bombers?”

    Dota: “To each their own. Some prefer suicide bombings, some prefer scalping, who am I to judge the methods that people use to resist?”

    Suicide bombing is “resisting”.

    • Dota
      November 23, 2011 at 10:07 PM

      “Suicide bombing is “resisting”.”

      In the Israel/Palestine context it is. The rest of your post reads like a badly written VHP pamphlet. Your running out of arguments, hang it up kid.

  90. Gay State Girl
    November 23, 2011 at 10:03 PM

    China aborts physically disabled fetuses.
    http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x8cc0r_china-disabled-babies-terminated-hu_news
    I’m sick of all this China worship.

    • Bay Area Guy
      November 24, 2011 at 11:16 AM

      I’m sick of all this China worship.

      Same here.

      I’ll admit, I went through a China worship phase for quite some time. But after doing a good deal of reading and thinking, I now realize that it was misplaced.

      China is rising and it looks scary, but there’s a ton of rot beneath the surface.

  91. Asian Philosopher Om Tat Sat
    November 23, 2011 at 10:19 PM

    Steve
    November 23, 2011 at 9:59 PM
    What bothers me AP, is when you get these atheism vs religion debates in the west, which are usually raging on the internet, the critics of religion never engage with the profound Hindu and Buddhist metaphysics and the anti-materialist arguments from India. Its always framed as science vs naive creationism or crude how can there be a personal creator being in the sky type of thing. The materialists assume the high ground but they are arguing against straw men, in a way.
    *
    Hitchens, Dawkins and Harris say as much. They have all said they are railing against the Abrahamic concept of God.

    Harris himself practices Buddhist meditation, though Buddhism itself is not inherently theist. Dawkins has said a few positive things about Hinduism. Remember, the first conceptual school of atheism arose out of South Asia and is one of the 7 Hindu Schools of Thought.

    The South Asian approach to the non-material is completely different from the Abrahamic approach and can accomodate both theistic and atheistic leanings, though of course the theistic schools are more popular.

    GSG, when you say the West will not fall, I agree. When I said “fall” I meant in its current form as the outwardly driven economic center of the world.

    Various centers throughout Asia are going to be the giants in global corporatism while the United States is gradually going a more local and natural route.

    We are going to get more (gasp!) tribal and less materialistic.

    • Steve
      November 23, 2011 at 11:35 PM

      Yeah. Hitchens is entertaining but Harris is by far the best.

      The thing is though, the more deep thinking, sophisticated Christians don’t really literally believe in the jealous, vengeful very personal God of the old testament. Even when say Dawkins is arguing against Christians, the debate could be taken deeper. Christians could even draw from western philosophy to do that…I don’t know, Bishop Berkeley or Spinoza or maybe Kant. To be fair, Aquinas and the cosmological arguments are sometimes brought out.

  92. Gay State Girl
    November 23, 2011 at 10:20 PM

    No dota is not a religious muslim, he just has flawed logic. He lacks the ability to find the good and bad that exists in all societies. He automatically labels cultures or religions as “good” or “bad,” without examining them further.

    • Dota
      November 23, 2011 at 10:27 PM

      Hinduism has some good points. The philosophy of yoga can greatly relieve one of the pressures of living in a Western society. Hinduism in limited doses is quite acceptable. I practice Pranayam which was taught to me by my mother, who is a huge fan of Swami Ramdev. You just can’t turn over an entire society to Hinduism, that’s problematic. I despise Islamic theocracies but I think even less of Hindutva

    • Asian Philosopher Om Tat Sat
      November 23, 2011 at 10:27 PM

      That is a trait of many so called “non religious” Desi Muslims. Very linear thinking. The Hindu philosophical approach is circular and cyclical. Think of the symbol for Tao.

      • Dota
        November 23, 2011 at 10:43 PM

        Chinese philosophy actually solves some very real problems. Here’s an extract from a biography of Confucius that I’m currently reading:

        “In India, for example, it would be argued that a wife must endure whatever hardships her husband may subject her to, simply because such troubles are fated to be her karma. Not so in Confucianism, where it is a husband’s DUTY to love and cherish. For Confucius, tyranny of all kinds was worse than a man eating tiger, and each half of any relationship is obliged to honour and respect the other.”

        (Confucious, a biography by Jonathan Clements)

        The Chinese grounded their philosophy in pragmatism by focusing on and regulating human relationships. Contrast the above to the dehumanizing ideology of the Indian Manusmriti or the extreme Machiavellian approach of Kautilya’s Arthashastra and Hinduism comes out looking like a cruel joke.

  93. Gay State Girl
    November 23, 2011 at 10:24 PM

    More on discrimination of the disabled in China, which has led Chinese parents to give their kids up for adoption for fear they will be discriminated in Chinese society.
    http://parenting.blogs.nytimes.com/2010/09/22/hard-truths-of-some-adoptions/

  95. Atheist Indian
    November 23, 2011 at 10:54 PM

    @ Asian Philosopher Om Tat Sat
    Hindu is probably one of the most tolerant and open religions. But just in theory. In reality, Hindus are as bigoted and intolerant as the Muslims and Christians are. Big on words but very little on actions, just like the proponents of the ‘religion of peace’.

  96. Gay State Girl
    November 23, 2011 at 10:56 PM

    But admit that you are very one sided and close minded. Once you’ve declared something “good” or “bad,” it will remain so to you and nothing will ever change your mind.

  97. Gay State Girl
    November 23, 2011 at 10:57 PM

    If Confucian men loved their wives so much, why did they deform their feet, and commit them to a life of extreme pain and hardship?

    • Hacienda
      November 24, 2011 at 10:52 AM

      “If Confucian men loved their wives so much, why did they deform their feet, and commit them to a life of extreme pain and hardship?”

      It’s sexy.

  98. Asian Philosopher Om Tat Sat
    November 23, 2011 at 11:06 PM

    Pfft! Neither Manusmriti nor Arthashastra are philosophical texts. You have shown your ignorance here regarding Hindu Philosophy. You have not studied it. AT ALL. What a shame to be born in the area of the world where some of the greatest philosophical minds existed and to be completely unfamiliar with their thoughts.

  99. Asian Philosopher Om Tat Sat
    November 23, 2011 at 11:21 PM

    @Dota,
    “No Om Tat, you’ve just made up a bogus argument and now you’re attributing it to me. I’m actually quite non religious but my problem is with you bashing the Abrahamic traditions using arguments which were handed to you by self hating Whites and Hindutva turds.”

    I see you’re trying to back track once you realized your anti-Hindu/pro-Abrahamic spheel was getting nowhere with other posters here.

    “bashing the Abrahamic traditions” – so saying that they provide no philosophical content is “bashing”?

    “self hating white” … “hindutva turds”…RSS…VHP….

    What is all this? I’m talking about PHILOSOPHY here, not race, social groups or politics.

    What? Never met anybody who liked Hindu philosophy and was an unabashed non-abrahamic who wasn’t political?

    You may be able to pass off “The Brits invented Hindi and forced Devanagari on the North Indians” to uneducated desi fools, but not me.

    Say goodnight desi boy. You’re outta your league with this one.

    “You just can’t turn over an entire society to Hinduism, that’s problematic. ”

    Turn over an entire society to Hinduism? Dude, I don’t think in terms of “turing over entire societies” to one way of life. I’m not a Muslim or Christian, remember?

    “I despise Islamic theocracies but I think even less of Hindutva”

    Of course you think less of something un-Islamic, you’re a Muslim!

    • ski
      November 25, 2011 at 1:08 PM

      “so saying that they provide no philosophical content is “bashing”?”

      Yeah of course that’s not bashing. Not at all. lol

      Sorry, but you do seem to have a very, very, very, shallow understanding of Christianity. The statement that it has “no philosophical content,” is laughable.

      By the way, are you aware that your much lauded Gandhi got most of his ideas about pacifism from Lev Tolstoy, a Russian Christian (whose ideas were entirely based on his interpretation of the Gospels)? You seem guilty of the shallow, black and white thinking you accuse others of.

      • Dota
        November 25, 2011 at 1:23 PM

        @ Ski

        Welcome to the wonderful world of Hindutva ie Hindu fascism. According to this school India’s history is divided into 3 parts: The golden and enlightened age of Hinduism where the peaceful and noble Hindus created a civilization of unparalleled splendor followed by the invasions of the eeeeeevil barbaric Muslims who pillaged them and the equally eeeeevil Christians (Brits) who pissed on their decaying culture. Don’t expect any depth or insight here. Expect a lot of anti White hate, Islamophobia and a lot of Jew loving.

        Also Ski, don’t tell a Hindutwadi that their glorious culture was influenced by outsiders, that’s not how it works. India is the mother of all cultures according to these folks. So some Hindutva ‘scholars’ have argued earnestly that the Taj Mahal was originally a Hindu temple which was converted by the eeeevil ruler Shah Jahan. Or that the Kabaa was originally a Hindu temple and the Qureshi Arabs were originally Hindus.

        • ski
          November 25, 2011 at 1:50 PM

          Sounds like the extreme Nordicism or Huaxist Chinaism for India.

          Well we’ll see if this guy really is as much of a Hindutva as you say– if so he’s certainly not gonna have it easy here considering Rob’s feelings on Hindutva.

        • Gay State Girl
          November 25, 2011 at 2:01 PM

          AP made none of those claims. You can’t distinguish between gloating about one’s culture and defending it. Neither I nor AP claimed that our religious traditions were faultless, it was you who constantly degrade Hinduism and Indian culture and exalt and whitewash Islam and Christianity (and your pet East Asians.) AP made some valid points about why he prefers Judaism to thee other Abrahamic faiths. And he consistently maintained that he is not an Indian nationalist and his statements about Islam were made in self defense.

          There is no reasoning with you. You confirm his stereotypes very well. You either declare a culture as “good” or “bad,” and there’s no middle ground.

        • Gay State Girl
          November 25, 2011 at 2:11 PM

          AP is not a Hindutva. Dota is the one who’s on the offense. AP made one (unprovoked) good remark about India and Dota immediately attacked him and took him out of context.

        • Robert Lindsay
          November 25, 2011 at 2:16 PM

          Ski, I think AP is a woman.

        • Dota
          November 25, 2011 at 2:32 PM

          Observe how he entered the thread, and observe his tone ever since. We were discussing Judaism and Jewish behavior. Before that you were wetting yourself over Norman. Like a typical pencil dick piss drinking Hindutwadi he rushed to the tribe’s defense and put down Muslims in the same statement by claiming that it was beneath the Jews to fight them, to which you cheerfully agreed. He then claimed that the Abrahamic tradition lacked depth. His posturing was unwarranted. Now I understand you aren’t very bright yourself and generally fail to read in between the lines, but even you should have seen this.

          “There is no reasoning with you. You confirm his stereotypes very well. You either declare a culture as “good” or “bad,” and there’s no middle ground.”
          Here’s a simple solution, ignore me. I barely interact with you here except when responding to a direct question or an outrageously idiotic statement (you never run out of those). I barely read your posts because you seldom have anything worthwhile to say, so feel free to return the favour.

        • Gay State Girl
          November 25, 2011 at 2:56 PM

          Dota
          I won’t lose my mind about what have to say about me because I know that you want me to go rabid and thaat is beneath me.

          Explain to me how I “gleefully agreed with AP’s ‘anti Islamic’ statement.” One of the best tactics to use against ultra zionists is to kill them with flattery. That way they can’t accuse you of antisemitism. I thought you’d have grasped that by now. If AP were an anti zionist, she would be very clever.

          What is wrong with me “wetting my pants” over Norman? Would you rather me make an assasination attempt? Or do you think that being attracted to a member of one’s own race will perpetuate ethnic warfare?

        • Dota
          November 25, 2011 at 3:12 PM

          “I won’t lose my mind about what have to say about me because I know that you want me to go rabid and thaat is beneath me.”

          You are slow. I just asked you to ignore me.

        • Gay State Girl
          November 25, 2011 at 3:17 PM

          “You are slow. I just asked you to ignore me.”

          Again, you resort to insult me on an unrelated topic (my intelligence) which might even be repulsive to those on you side.

          You don’t respond to the majority of my points because you know you can not argue with them.

        • Dota
          November 25, 2011 at 3:40 PM

          I don’t respond to the majority of your points because they are utterly banal and not worth my time. For example, Ski posted an outstanding quote about the positive impact of the Catholic Church in imbuing Europe with a common identity among other things. He’s talked about how many of the ideologies that shaped Europe (and now the modern world) had their roots in the bible. These arguments are not in the mainstream. How do you respond? ‘The church said that the world was flat.’ Utterly banal. Well duh, we all know that. We don’t stop hearing things like this on the MSM. You argue at the level of a first year under grad and then interpret my disinterest as a personal victory. Well if it makes you happy more power to you kido.

      • Steve
        November 25, 2011 at 10:39 PM

        he was also influenced by Jainism, according to Sam Harris.

  100. Gay State Girl
    November 23, 2011 at 11:56 PM

    Christian doctrine taught that the earth was flat. I do recognize that there were many benefits that Christianity brought to Europe and I doubt, tihs is what Christ had in mind.

  101. Asian Philosopher Om Tat Sat
    November 24, 2011 at 12:04 AM

    “But Hindu philosophy is quite frankly garbage. ”

    And he accuses ME of bashing religions?!

    See, in a Muslims mind there is no such thing as “bashing” a non-Abrahamic religion. Non-Abrahamic religions and ways of life do not need to be respected.

    But of course, as a non-Abrahamic I’m supposed to be ashamed of my beliefs and tip toe around the Abrahamic faiths in awe, as if walking on glass. And never, ever, ever critique them.

    ” The Gita states that there is inaction in Action and action in inaction. In other words look within (this is what meditation is about). ”

    He says this as if its a BAD thing!!! Bwahahahaha.

    Looking within is EXACLTY what humanity needs to be doing MORE fo these days. Probably why so many Americans are taking up meditation.

    “However this philosophy is entirely bogus and has resulted in a society where people are oblivious to the hell they live in.”

    Yes, I’ll agree that when the first Muslim invaders came to that part of the world the Hindus should have kicked their asses and taken no prisoners.

    Similarly, the UK and various other small European countries that are experiencing major problems with a certain demographic of immigrant population need to start putting a cap on that.

    Perhaps they need to give up their universalist way of thinking and go back to a tribal mentality and start caring for themselves first instead of problematic peoples from other countries who have absolutely no intention of assimilating to their host cultures.

    • Steve
      November 24, 2011 at 12:10 AM

      I enjoy your posts AP. But I wonder what exactly assimilating to British culture would mean?

    • Dota
      November 24, 2011 at 8:35 AM

      @ AP

      “” The Gita states that there is inaction in Action and action in inaction. In other words look within (this is what meditation is about). ”
      He says this as if its a BAD thing!!! Bwahahahaha.”"

      It is a bad thing when people are wading through a stream of Urine and shit during the monsoon season due to a lack of action. Why bother acting? lets all look inwards, meditate and be happy. See the trail of beggars starving to death on the pavement? No need to take any action there either. European merchants who had visited India during the 16th century recalled the same appaling indifference to human suffering so it’s an Indian thing.

      “”Pfft! Neither Manusmriti nor Arthashastra are philosophical texts.”"
      The Arthashastra is a political treatise whereas the Manusmiriti is a legal code (simplistically speaking). Both these systems have their origins in Hindu philosophy. Every political/legal system has it’s origins in a philosophy. Socialism and COmmunuism have theirs in Marxism for example. Must this be explained to you kid?

      “Turn over an entire society to Hinduism? Dude, I don’t think in terms of “turing over entire societies” to one way of life.”
      It’s not up to you retard. In India, everybody is a Hindu. Muslims are Allah worshipping Hindus and Sikhs are Wahey Guru worshipping Hindus. Hindu thinking prevails in India and that is why India is a mess. The 2 nation theory is bogus and the current state of Pakistan is proof that Indian Muslims cannot escape their Hindu mindset despite their supreme arrogance.

      “”Say goodnight desi boy. You’re outta your league with this one.”"
      lol? By a second generation ABCD who’s probly never visited his pitarbhoomi and who doesn’t speak a word of Hindi? In your dreams son. We don’t like Hindutwadis around here and you’re going to find out the hard way.

      • Steve
        November 24, 2011 at 10:36 AM

        I haven’t studied the Gita for a long time but I think it encourages people to act in the world and perform their duties attachment to the fruits of the action. When it says there’s inaction in action and action in inaction, its basically talking about action without attachment. Its called ‘karma yoga’, the path of union through action. Its one of the ways to Krishna-consciousness, a method of acting in the world and doing spiritual practice at the same time. So its actually kind of the opposite of saying you don’t need to do anything, just meditate; its saying perform your worldly duties.

        The whole thing is a conversation between Arjuna and Krishna before an epic battle. Arjuna doesn’t want to go through with it because there are lots of people he knows there on both sides, but Krishna tells him to perform his role as a warrior and fight, practicing karma yoga. He convinces him its the righteous thing to do.

        I just went to Wikipedia and found this explanation:

        “Karma yoga is described as a way of acting, thinking and willing by which one orients oneself toward realization by acting in accordance with one’s duty (dharma) without consideration of personal self-centered desires, likes or dislikes. One acts without being attached to the fruits of one’s deeds.

        Krishna explains that work done without selfish expectations purifies one’s mind and gradually makes an individual fit to see the value of reason. He states that it is not necessary to remain in external solitude, or remain actionless, in order to practice a spiritual life, since the state of action or inaction is primarily determined in the mind.”

        Even if Hinduism did encourage people to renounce the world and meditate, that is only traditionally the concern of the Brahmans and an elite educated strata, not the majority of Indians living their daily lives.

        Indifference to human suffering might be an Indian thing- I’ve got no idea if you’re right about that since I haven’t been to India. That might even be due to an attitude derived from some Hindu doctrine (even though that attitude doesn’t necessarily follow from the doctrine), such as karma and its application to the caste system. I’m willing to accept that if its true. It doesn’t mean that attitude is really the logical conclusion of the karma doctrine though (I’ve argued its not) or that it can’t change. And importantly, it doesn’t mean its not true.

        • Dota
          November 24, 2011 at 10:59 AM

          @ Steve

          The fundamental flaw in the Gita philosophy is that it assumes that people can act without attachment. In reality, attachment is actually a good thing. We’re attached to our society and the well being of others and so positive action is required to ensure that this well being is maintained. There is no concept of the common good in India, none. Indian cities are just giant villages with public transport. Take a trip to Mumbai sometime and check out districts like Mullund and Kurla. Even if one isn’t acting in self interest, one can act on behalf of the common good. But it’s still attachment. The Gita goes against human psychology. Egoism is important. Without it there would never have been a classical liberalism which eventually led to the complete dismantlement of Feudalism in Europe. There would be no natural rights as articulated by John Locke. I’m not against Westerners practicing meditation as I feel that small doses of Hinduism can actually restore some balance to western societies. But it was the Christian tradition that has shaped the west and the US was built on the Protestant work ethic. The Western tradition is quite capable of standing on its own two feet. Also bear in mind that there is a difference between ‘Dharma’ and ‘morality’. Morality as Westerners understand it does not exist in India. Dharma is duty, and in India duty is a function of obligation. Take my cousin for example. Although technically a Muslim, this man committed fraud and embezzlement on an epic scale and is now a multi millionaire. Indians (Hindus included) generally praise his actions as he has used that money to care for his parents, enroll his kids in a fancy private school and buy his wife some expensive jewelry. From a Hindu point of view he has fulfilled his Dharma. Morality is irrelevant. As I said to Om above, everybody in India is a Hindu at some level.

          “”Even if Hinduism did encourage people to renounce the world and meditate, that is only traditionally the concern of the Brahmans and an elite educated strata, not the majority of Indians living their daily lives. “
          And here lies another problem. Different sets of rules for different people. The very anti thesis of egalitarianism.

          India is totally dominated by Hinduism and the country is one royal mess. Visit it sometime and I guarantee that you will turn back into a Christian westerner faster than I can say Loh Purush Sardar Vallabhai Patel.

  102. Asian Philosopher Om Tat Sat
    November 24, 2011 at 12:22 AM

    Assimilation means working and paying taxes and not expecting handouts from the dole system. Speaking English. Wearing clothing that is normative. Marrying a Brit and not flying back to Pakistan or Bangladesh to have an arranged marriage with someone you don’t know and who will have to come to the UK and get on the dole. Only having as many kids as you can easily afford. Keeping your religion to yourself. Not ghettoizing.

    In short, doing the exact opposite of what Desi Muslims are doing in the UK.

  103. Steve
    November 24, 2011 at 1:22 AM

    Lets look at it.

    1) Unemployment/welfare dependency

    This is from the Telegraph (2004):

    “Unemployment rates were higher for Muslims than any other religion, for both men and women. Muslim male unemployment rate was 13% in 2004, and for women it was 18%.

    Muslims between the ages of 16 and 24 had the highest unemployment rates at 28%; 11% of Muslims over the age of 25 were unemployed”

    There must be more up to date stats but then the majority of them worked, even if the rate was higher. I don’t think we can really level that charge at them as a whole group.

    2) Speaking English

    I don’t know the stats but from observation, they speak English, certainly every one born here does.

    3) Clothing

    hmmm I see a lot of Muslims in western clothing and some in traditional clothing. I will have to look into this more. At the university, its definitely a majority in western clothing. They can be quite stylish too. I don’t know if I’m bothered about different clothing though. Its more ideas that concern me.

    4) kids

    I think Muslim birth rates are falling worldwide and I would put money on the generation of British born Muslims having less kids than their immigrant parents.

    not sure about the marriage stats. will do a bit of research. how do you like my wonderfully researched post? lol!

    The question that concerns me is this: can we really see a well functioning liberal democracy with a high percentage of Muslims? that’s an open question for me. I’m watching north Africa with interest. That’s the concern though, that the Muslim population will become too big and adversely affect or undermine the democracy and civil society. that’s a worst case scenario and I’m not too worried at the moment. first of all, I don’t think the Muslim population will necessarily grow too large and even if it does, I do see some reasons for optimism. I think I can rely on a majority of the Muslims supporting democracy. Dedicated minorities can cause problems though.

    I wouldn’t care about people wearing exotic clothes or eating exotic food (I might even like it) as long as they have positive ideas and attitudes.

    • Steve
      November 24, 2011 at 1:25 AM

      * at the uni its probably a large majority in western clothes for the men. not sure about the woman though. quite a lot cover their heads but in a fashionable way.

  104. Gay State Girl
    November 24, 2011 at 9:19 AM

    I actually liked the Muslim men I met. The women were far more obnoxious and chauvinistic about Islam. It’s hard ffor me to take the plight of women in muslim countries seriously.

  105. Asian Philosopher Om Tat Sat
    November 24, 2011 at 10:53 AM

    About the women being more obnoxious than the men, I’ve not noticed. What cracks me up are these “Islamo-Marxist-Feminist” Muslimahs. LOL.

    They will do things like wear complete niqab in a Western country and then call you a “racist” and “sexist” if you look at them sideways.

    Its like, “Yo Bitch, you be lookin’ like dat. Imma gon look, you f*ckin freak!”

    They WANT you to look. Its a “political statement” and has nothing to do with “modesty”. If it were about modesty they would wear clothing to blend in, not stand out.

    But yeah, most Muslims I know are not like that. They are normal, nice people who have unfortunately been mislead. Most of them are born to Muslim parents and come from cultures where you don’t change your religion. They don’t neccessarily buy into the crap, they just don’t formally renounce it.

    Even then a number of the Muslims I’ve dated were hellbent on converting me. That’s when I dumped their sorry asses.

    • Gay State Girl
      November 24, 2011 at 10:59 AM

      Looks like China has found employment for the disabled after all…
      http://news.sky.com/home/strange-news/article/15583491

    • Steve
      November 24, 2011 at 11:06 AM

      they might get into trouble if they formally renounce it. Apostasy carries a death sentence in classical sharia and its still pretty difficult to be open about it a Muslim society I believe. Correct me if I’m wrong.

      • Gay State Girl
        November 24, 2011 at 11:15 AM

        But are they bound by Islamic law to prosthelytize?

        • Dota
          November 24, 2011 at 1:29 PM

          @ GSG

          No. Most imams pay lip service to it but Muslims are generally disinterested in the activity. ‘Dawaa activities’ are not nearly as organized as Evangalical or catholic missions

        • Steve
          November 25, 2011 at 2:41 PM

          historically, they tended to prosthelytize by the sword. I don’t know if that was actually an edict. They don’t seem especially preachy in western countries though, I’ll give you that. Sometimes pushy, but not especially preachy. Actually, I shall be fair: the fact is the majority of them are decent, friendly people who actually admire the democracy of the west.

        • Steve
          November 25, 2011 at 2:42 PM

          * according to some pretty comprehensive polling data, and my experience.

        • Robert Lindsay
          November 25, 2011 at 2:43 PM

          Once you make friends with Muslims, they start trying to convert you. They invite you to their mosques, etc.

        • Gay State Girl
          November 25, 2011 at 2:59 PM

          Even I was unaware that an invitation one’s mosque (usually fo interfaith meetings) is intended to prostelytize.

      • Atheist Indian
        November 25, 2011 at 5:33 AM

        What deters most apostates from formally renouncing Islam is not the threat to survival but the social castaway of being a ‘neither-here-nor-there’ person, especially in tribal and feudalistic Asian societies.
         
        In India for instance, a Muslim apostate’s biggest concern wouldn’t be losing his head, but losing his place in the society. For the average Hindu, he is a perpetual Muslim because he was born one. For the Muslims, he is a traitor (munafikeen) and hence, an outcast.

    • Dota
      November 24, 2011 at 1:26 PM

      “What cracks me up are these “Islamo-Marxist-Feminist” Muslimahs. LOL.”

      Almost as funny as Bengali Brahmin Marxists who publicly proclaim their Marxism but privately are unable to let go of the privilege that goes with the caste.

  106. Gay State Girl
    November 24, 2011 at 11:02 AM

    The hijab is most certainly a political statement. I’ve seen hijab clad Muslim women-with thongs sticking out of their visible buttcracks.

  107. Asian Philosopher Om Tat Sat
    November 24, 2011 at 11:15 AM

    In Saudi Arabia the clothing those women wear underneath their niqab is downright scandalous, that is WHEN they are wearing clothing underneath it. I have theory that Arabs are not a self-controlled and modest people so the extremes have to be forced on them.

    Those of us who are naturally more moderate with our bodies and sexuality, don’t need such control. Just a personal opinion I formed after travelling in the “arab world”. But just because they are a wild pack of horndogs doesn’t mean they should be forcing their Darth Vadar ensemble onto the rest of us, goddamnit!

    On a positive note, Arabs are some of the best looking people in the world.

    “I’ve never seen this. It surely wouldn’t happen in a Muslim country.”

    Go to Saudi.

    • Hacienda
      November 24, 2011 at 11:27 AM

      Sorry. I misunderstood “hijab”. I get it, that Muslims are publicly modest, privately insanely lewd and filthy and craving of the most disgusting sexual acts.

      Anyway, that’s a nice picture. I think she’s in the USA. If you could dig up a similar one of a woman in Saudi Arabia, that would be a find.

    • Steve
      November 25, 2011 at 3:25 PM

      that sounds awesome. Arab girls FTW

  108. Gay State Girl
    November 24, 2011 at 11:26 AM

    Thanksgiving anyone?

    • Hacienda
      November 24, 2011 at 11:28 AM

      Yes, Sweets. Happy Turkey Day.

    • Steve
      November 25, 2011 at 3:33 PM

      I wouldn’t mind if we adopted thanksgiving. Gratitude is good but mainly I want the food and the special occasion.

      I don’t know if the thanksgiving meal is the same as the Christmas dinner, with roast potatoes, meat, stuffing, vegetables (is it?) but in England its traditional to have that meal every sunday. did you know that? its called a sunday roast.

      • Gay State Girl
        November 25, 2011 at 3:37 PM

        Americans do sunday roast as well. But I feel that Thanksgiving is somewhat hypocritical, seeing as we’re claiming to give thanks to mother earth while simultaneously consuming more than is necessary.

        • Gay State Girl
          November 25, 2011 at 3:40 PM

          Traditional Thanksgiving menus usually contain Turkey, Cranberry Sauce, Green beans, Yams, Apple Pie, with room for variation.

  109. Asian Philosopher Om Tat Sat
    November 24, 2011 at 11:40 AM

    Here’s what I’m making tonight for dinner

    http://deshika.files.wordpress.com/2007/04/udupifood.gif

  110. Asian Philosopher Om Tat Sat
    November 24, 2011 at 12:21 PM

    If the material of the niqab is light and if sunlight hits in right, you can see their underwear, or lack thereof. Yeah, some of them are hot. Some of them you really don’t WANT to see what they got going on underneath. LOL. Another silly thing, “niqab covers the beauty of a woman”…. well some of those women are downright ugly so she ain’t covering up jack. Might as well take that veil off, less of us would look at you.

    Its so twisted.

  111. Gay State Girl
    November 24, 2011 at 2:24 PM

    The scariest part about Little People’s Kingdom is not that it exists, but that people in the Western media rush to defend it as a “safe haven” and “employer” for an otherwise discriminated minority. If something similar had been set up in a Western country, it would have been condemned by people of all ideologies.

  112. Asian Philosopher Om Tat Sat
    November 25, 2011 at 10:52 AM

    Indians are collectivists. They can’t conceive of individualism. You see how Dota here was unable to stay on topic (philosophy) and instead wanted to talk “nationalism” and “politics”. Its all about group identity with Indians.

    Quite frankly its also what makes Indian men incredibly un-sexy and un-appealing in the eyes of women.

    • Dota
      November 25, 2011 at 1:39 PM

      to analyse how a philosophy plays out in the real world one must indeed look to politics. The genesis and sharing of ideas intersect with the sharing of power. I think you’re a little drunk on cow piss. Sober up a bit and perhaps you might come up with something intelligent to say yet.

      • Gay State Girl
        November 25, 2011 at 2:07 PM

        Resorting to meaningless attacks on someone that are often unrelated to the subject matter, indicates that you lack a sound argument.

  113. Gay State Girl
    November 25, 2011 at 3:08 PM

    I told AP that the best way to beat an ultra zionist in an argument was to kill them with flattery and that Israel’s current location was a very bad placement and I acknowledged that a tiny country with few natural resources could not provide much in return to its “allies.” I never claimed Jews were absolutely superior to the other Abrahamic faiths. AP’s remark was not intended to provoke.

  114. Gay State Girl
    November 25, 2011 at 3:20 PM

    You obviosly did not mean for me to ignore you. You were trying to piss me off.

  115. Bay Area Guy
    November 25, 2011 at 3:26 PM

    @ Dota

    I really am curious, why are Hindutva types so damn philo-Semitic and pro-Zionist?

    The name of that one psycho commenter on the Atheist Indian’s blog was “Zionists R Awesome”, and AP is clearly a philo-Semite.

    What’s going on here?

    • Dota
      November 25, 2011 at 4:40 PM

      BAG

      “I really am curious, why are Hindutva types so damn philo-Semitic and pro-Zionist?”

      It’s quite complicated BAG. While some say that their shared hatred for Islam and Muslims unites them I think this analysis is superficial. Despite the apparent difference in their cultures, Brahmins and Jews share many values in common. Both are extremely elitist in their world view. Indeed ALL Indians are extremely elitist. I’m ashamed to admit that even in my own circle in India it is not uncommon for servants to sit on the floor and eat while their masters dine on tables and chairs. Brahmins take it to a whole new extreme. I’ve never met a lower caste Hindu who has ever seethed at my critique of the caste system. Yet AP doesn’t like it, chances are she is a Brahmin. I don’t have to explain Jewish elitism and their attitudes towards the goyim to you BAG so I’m going to explain the Indian side of this equation. Just as the tribe believes that they are God’s chosen people, the Brahmins too believe that they are the only ones made in the image of God. Indeed the term Brahmin is a derivative of the term Brahman, who is the ultimate incomprehensible reality (ie God in a manner of speaking) as stated by the Upanishads. This elitism also translates into work ethic. Most Indians do not see the inherent dignity of work as Westerners and East Asians do. No, in India, work it graded with white collar work being most desirable while blue collar work seen as inferior. This is tied to the caste system again as the lowly Shudra caste consists of labourers who must learn in silence and dare not teach the Brahmin any moral lessons as the Manusmriti clearly says. Compare this to the tribe’s view of manual labour which is identical to that of the Indian. Manual labour is for the dumb goyim, I’ve had Jews confirm this for me in real life (tho not in those words). Hindutwadis also suffer from a persecution complex like the Jews do and indeed just as the Jewish identity is defined through victimhood, Hindu history is defined as a perpetual conflict between the ‘noble hindus’ and the ‘evil invaders.’ This ‘struggle’ is almost a parody of Marxism in its application to Hinduism. So in summary, elitism, cultural chauvinism and the persecution complex are the shared values between Hindutva and Jewry.

    • Gay State Girl
      November 25, 2011 at 4:52 PM

      Gay Area Guy
      AP is not your typical philosemite. For one thing, she believes the location for a jewish state was a terrible idea, and that will get you kicked off of most Jewish sites. Secondly, the reason she gave for the superiority of Judaism was that it was a non prothelytizing religion, not because of its actual tenets. I think most of her philosemitic statements were just a knee jerk reaction to Dota statements on Hindus and Jews.

      Dota
      Can you produce some statements about “Goyim’s work.”

      Regarding Judaism and Brahminism supposed superiority complex. I think it is equally chauvinistic to say your world view is the only one and force it on everyone who walks in your way.

      • Dota
        November 25, 2011 at 5:16 PM

        “Regarding Judaism and Brahminism supposed superiority complex. I think it is equally chauvinistic to say your world view is the only one and force it on everyone who walks in your way.”

        Perhaps. However you’ll be hard pressed to find a Muslim or Christian who belives that they are inherently superior to other human beings. That the sanctity of their life is above those of non believers. They may believe that their belief systems are superior but that’s as far as they will go. Therein lies the key difference.

        BTW your comment about my ‘love affair’ with Christianity was actually quite petty, even for you. It was surprisngly….Indian.

        • Gay State Girl
          November 25, 2011 at 5:36 PM

          “Perhaps. However you’ll be hard pressed to find a Muslim or Christian who belives that they are inherently superior to other human beings. That the sanctity of their life is above those of non believers. They may believe that their belief systems are superior but that’s as far as they will go. Therein lies the key difference.” But I explained the Jewish view on gentiles and afterlife and in my view, this is preferable.

          I said EQUALLY. You need to learn to read critically. I didn’t say that I believe that the notion that you’re superior is better than the notion that your belief system is superior.

          “BTW your comment about my ‘love affair’ with Christianity was actually quite petty, even for you. It was surprisngly….Indian.”

          Thank you.

      • Bay Area Guy
        November 25, 2011 at 5:36 PM

        Can you produce some statements about “Goyim’s work.”

        I’ll answer for Dota here, though I would certainly be interested in hearing his take as well.

        In Israel, virtually all forms of manual, blue collar labor (including construction) are referred to as “Arab work.”

        • Gay State Girl
          November 25, 2011 at 5:41 PM

          Produce some citations and not from Mondoweiss.

        • Bay Area Guy
          November 25, 2011 at 5:49 PM

          @ GSG

          Well, first of all, it needs to be said that I don’t read Mondoweiss as a whole.

          I just go there to read comments by Jeffrey Blankfort, who impressed me with his articles on the Israel Lobby and the deception of Noam Chomsky.

          I don’t read the Hebrew press, nor am I literate in Hebrew, but Israelis use the term “avoudah aravit” to describe manual and blue collar labor.

          Yes, I got that mostly from reading comments on Mondoweiss as well as certain PSM sites, but that doesn’t necessarily mean that it’s wrong.

          I mean, is anyone going to seriously argue that manual labor is valued by Ashkenazi Jews in Israel?

        • Gay State Girl
          November 25, 2011 at 6:09 PM

          Gay Area Guy
          I am not up to date on the employment situation in Israel but are you aware that one of the most common industries that Israelis abroad pursue are the moving industry and mall vending, which are hardly cushy jobs.

          I’m not familiar with Jeff Blankfort, but I automatically associate Mondoweiss commenters negatively, which is probably unfair on my part, as not all his readers agree with everything hee says. But his site is a cesspool. I’m not so much offended by the antisemitism that is so rampant (it’s a natural reaction), but I find the multicultural and unicultural (hatred of ethnic distinction and national identity) extremism to be repulsive. One commenter even asked “why do jewish men wear that meaningless pieces on cloth on their heads? Don’t we all worship the same God? Why do they need to distinguish themselves?” Anyone who appreciates human diversity should be enraged by that attitude. Phil is an egomaniac and is so clearly driven by his desire to be seen as both notorious and saintlike and to top that off, he’s strinkingly naive about the world around him. I do like to read different perspectives on Israel and Jews, even if I don’t agree with them.

  116. Asian Philosopher Om Tat Sat
    November 25, 2011 at 3:28 PM

    LMAO! I see the typical shrill hysterical Desi Brigade made its way here. Desis are unable to seperate personal opinions from the collective. They are loathsomely collective in consciousness.

    Indian Nationalist? Me? Hilarious. Indians don’t need MORE collectivism. They’re overdosing on it now as it is.

    The future of the Eastern traditions lies with individualist Westerners. They are able to divorce the good stuff from the collective. What to speak of being alot less repressed and anal retentive.

    Indians will just keep drinking their mothers breast milk into their 80s while the rest of the world, including Indian women, keep it movin’.

  118. Asian Philosopher Om Tat Sat
    November 25, 2011 at 3:44 PM

    BAG, Excuse me? A “philo-semite”? Where the f*ck did you get that from? I guess its better than what happened to me on another blog where I got called a “rabid anti-semite” for saying that progressive Europeans got no business setting up a nation in the middle of a an Arab desert with people whom they do not share values with.

    Either you and that other poster have reading comprehension issues, or you’re just lacking in taking people at their word.

    Steve, Robert and GSG seem to be the only ones capable of doing that in the Blogosphere.

  119. Gay State Girl
    November 25, 2011 at 3:51 PM

    “You argue at the level of a first year under grad and then interpret my disinterest as a personal victory.”

    Why thank you. That’s quite a compliment by your standards. I said the same to Lafayette Sennacherib when he called Christian Zionism a “backward form of Judaism” thus implying that he thought Judaism to be intellectually superior. My response to Ski was not banal. I noted how many millions of fellow Christians have been killed in the name of Christianity. My response was to Steve, and it was probably harsh.

    I’m neutral. I don’t care whether you respond or not, but I’m anything but banal. I support the right of the German people to forget the past and move on. How many Jews do you know who do that?

    • Steve
      November 25, 2011 at 4:24 PM

      where is your harsh reply to me? i can’t find it.

    • Gay State Girl
      November 25, 2011 at 4:31 PM

      I’m sorry I dissed Christianity. I recognize allowed for many improvements in European culture. and I doubt 2000 years of inter religious and sectarian fighting was what Christ had in mind.

      • Steve
        November 25, 2011 at 4:54 PM

        oh okay. I guess we have to see both sides. It could have both facilitated progress and resisted it. It could have both encouraged morality and abused it. It could have reflected both divine wisdom and human ignorance, divine guidance and human brutality. The militant atheists seem to not be able to think about this in a balanced way and see only ignorance and harm. That may be because they are ignorant themselves. They are intelligent and well intentioned too. Things are often complex.

  120. Gay State Girl
    November 25, 2011 at 3:56 PM

    I agree that Ski’s post was outstanding, but your love affair with Christianity is ridiculous. You only like it to spite Jews.

    The reason I say you can’t argue is you ferret out the points you can react with outrage to.

  121. Gay State Girl
    November 25, 2011 at 4:02 PM

    “Still, the amount of attention that they receive from the MSM is beyond absurd.”

    True. Christianity does receive a disproportionate amount of flak for all it’s evils. But the ridicule is directed more at cracker culture than Christianity.

  122. Gay State Girl
    November 25, 2011 at 4:07 PM

    Norman, you are so fine. and wouldn’t you prefer a 20 something to a middle aged hag.

    Dota
    You have to pick your battles. You shouldn’t make a war with anyone who compliments Hinduism.

  123. Asian Philosopher Om Tat Sat
    November 25, 2011 at 4:09 PM

    @Steve, “Arab girls FTW”

    Arab MEN ftw!

    They are some of the sexiest mofos out there! Unfortunately they can have an intense machismo that is overbearing and a religious intolerance. One of my exes actually came into my apartment one day and took down all my religious icons. I came home without pictures on the walls and my shrine empty!

    Needless to say, I changed my locks and keys and never spoke to his sweet little ass ever again.

    • Steve
      November 25, 2011 at 5:02 PM

      I love me some Arab girls, mostly from afar. There was an Indian girl I was involved with; actually she was from Mauritius but they are ethnically Indian Hindus. South Asian girls ftw too. Lots of hot Pakistani girls in Manchester. Asian Caucasians might be my favourite.

    • Steve
      November 25, 2011 at 5:03 PM

      oh yeah and about the apartment, that’s funny and scary at the same time lol

  124. Steve
    November 25, 2011 at 4:13 PM

    I think you are touching on great point here. I think the future of humanity lies in a synthesis of the best of the west and east. The west has made great advances in technology, science, government etc and the east, in my view, has the most profound and sophisticated philosophical schools and spiritual methods. You can now see Asia following the west and developing materially and you can see quite widespread interest in Buddhism and tai chi and yoga etc in the west.

    Also, I think the west has excessive individualism while the east has excessive collectivism, which might balance one another.

    @Dota I don’t especially feel the need to defend Hinduism for its social system or some of the attitudes it may have inculcated in Indians. Its quite possible to take the best of Indian spirituality and reject those things like the caste system or fatalistic attitudes about poverty (which I think are a misreading of the Karma doctrine anyway) and combine that with what is good in the west (and undoubtedly there are some great things in the west).

    Budhhism is a native Indian tradition which rejects the caste system and also has a very ‘enlightened’ system of morality that isn’t tied in with caste duty. Perhaps Buddhism also makes philosophical and methodological advances in some areas. There are certainly aspects of Hinduism that are great though and if a person has an affinity with it then go for it…

    There are elements of Islam that are excellent. Whether you consider it heterodox or esoteric, I think a lot of Sufism is sublime. I will even say there are parts of Sharia that are beneficial.

    We can be stuck in the past, in old patterns, or we can be creative and move forward.

    • Steve
      November 25, 2011 at 4:17 PM

      so the comment above was supposed to be a reply to this from AP:

      “The future of the Eastern traditions lies with individualist Westerners. They are able to divorce the good stuff from the collective. What to speak of being alot less repressed and anal retentive.”

      • Steve
        November 25, 2011 at 4:18 PM

        and this:

        “Indian Nationalist? Me? Hilarious. Indians don’t need MORE collectivism. They’re overdosing on it now as it is.”

    • Dota
      November 25, 2011 at 5:46 PM

      “@Dota I don’t especially feel the need to defend Hinduism for its social system or some of the attitudes it may have inculcated in Indians. Its quite possible to take the best of Indian spirituality and reject those things like the caste system or fatalistic attitudes about poverty (which I think are a misreading of the Karma doctrine anyway) and combine that with what is good in the west (and undoubtedly there are some great things in the west). ”

      Agreed. As I’ve already said so before certain Hindu practices can enable western societies to resore their balance. But recognize that the west is the west because of its own tradition (based on Christianity). It is capable of standing on its 2 feet. If Christianity lacked depth, the west would not be where it is today. One must not be blind to how philosophies play out on the macro scale. India is a mess and it’s not unreasonable to assume that a large part of this has to do with the Hindu way of thinking. This is why Indian writers who critique Hinduism like Aakar Patel are bashed by so many Indians. You can read some of his articles on livemint. If you’ve read my essay which Robert was kind enough to post you would notice that I freely admit that a certain element in Islamic theology is retarding to progress and Muslims must stop appealing to tradition if they wish to keep up. Pity Hindus lack the same introspection.

      @ AP

      You’ve done your fair share of attacking so please don’t cry. Call me what you want, makes no difference. I’ve actually been called worse by my fellow Muslims.

      @ GSG

      ‘troll’? LOL. I think the little girl is upset at being perceived as banal. Again, I’m not as petty as you. I can admire something or lend moral support to another cause/ideology without expecting anything in return. A pity your Jew Brain cannot fathom this so you must resort to assigning me ulterior motives. I genuinely admire Christianity whether you believe me or not, in Jew terms: There is no return on this investment. Hope that helps.

      • Gay State Girl
        November 25, 2011 at 5:53 PM

        “I think the little girl is upset at being perceived as banal.”

        I don’t care what you think about me. Believe it or not, I have my own life, I have people who love me, I have my own interests and talents and I don’t need you to validate my existence. I will go on whether you like me or not. However, the fact that you have to resort to random, meaningless name calling, reveals a great insecurity on your part.

      • Steve
        November 26, 2011 at 12:33 AM

        @ Dota

        There is certainly philosophical profundity in the western Christian tradition. There is even a contemplative tradition in the monasteries and there is the literature of the Christian mystics. You have to dig to find these things though. You have to go study theology or become a monk. Nowhere in the Christianity of the masses or in a Christian upbringing will you even hear about any notion of spiritual enlightenment or the methods for attaining it. The individual is thought of as eternally limited and separate from God. No idea of past and future lifetimes or karma (although some early Christians believed in reincarnation). There really isn’t much profundity in the Christianity you learn in school or get at church. Where there is philosophical profundity, it is partial and not up to the standard of Hinduism or Buddhism. Where there are methods, they aren’t as well developed.

        Christianity in much of Europe is not standing up to the scrutiny of inquiring minds in a scientific age, as far as people think about it at all. In England, church attendance is low and its falling. A lot of people might have some private belief about God or a ‘higher power’ but most people aren’t religious. If you meet somebody in Liverpool, you’d be surprised if they were religious. Deep thinking, sophisticated westerners who want a serious spiritual path, tend to look, and are probably best to look, towards Dharmic religions rather than Abrahamic ones. That’s the future of spirituality in the west. There are already Buddhist centres everywhere.

        Sufism is the best exception I know about from the Abrahamic religions. A lot of people read Rumi.

        • Steve
          November 26, 2011 at 4:44 AM

          Thinking about it, the Abrahamic and Dharmic religions have two different spiritual paradigms. This might be a better way of explaining what I was getting at above.

          In the Abrahamic religions, the individual has a single life followed by an eternity in heaven or hell as an individual. In Christianity if you believe in Jesus and are mostly a good person and refrain from major sins, you’ll get into heaven. You’ll be happy living in God’s presence forever.

          In the Dharmic religions, the individual is continuously reborn until they seek and gain moksha or liberation from samsara, the cycle of birth and death. Moksha or enlightenment is awakening to the unchanging ultimate reality. In Hinduism, that is Brahman and in Buddhism the Buddha nature or enlightened mind. The realistion of the enlightened mind frees one from ignorance, which is at the root of samsara, as well as the disturbing emotions (desire,anger etc) and suffering.

          Yoga means the union, ultimately the union of the individual with the universal. Yoga describes the essence of universal consciousness is sat-chit-ananda, being-awareness-bliss.

          Hinduism sees time as cyclical. The universe goes through a beginningless and endless cycles of expansion and contraction, creation and destruction. And the universe is infinite, or there are infinite universes, with infinite worlds, similar to the modern multiverse theory in physics. I guess in Christianity all the billions of stars and planets were created so we could be here on this one, or maybe there are lots of planets where Jesus or another son of God or Muhammad went to.

          hey if the Abrahamic paradigm appeals to you, don’t let me stand in your way. I know which one makes more sense to me.

        • Steve
          November 26, 2011 at 4:48 AM

          *Yoga means union in Sanskrit, not the union.

  125. Gay State Girl
    November 25, 2011 at 4:21 PM

    Steve
    “Also, I think the west has excessive individualism while the east has excessive collectivism, which might balance one another.”
    Thaat’s interesting. I have heard that Buddhism emphasizes self, while Judaism emphasizes community. I have heard that hippie Jews who dabbled in Buddhism, eventually came back to Judaism because they felt that Buddhism lacked that aspect.

    • Steve
      November 25, 2011 at 4:31 PM

      I’m thinking about western (European, American) individualism versus Asian (Indian, Chinese, Japanese) emphasis on the group.

      Buddhism emphasises self? I don’t think it does. how?

      • Gay State Girl
        November 25, 2011 at 4:37 PM

        Admittedly, I know very little about Buddhism. But based on what I’m told, it allows people to get in touch with their inner self. this is why it is so popular in hollywood.

        • Steve
          November 25, 2011 at 6:03 PM

          GSG

          Inner self is more of Hindu concept. Buddhists tend to talk more in terms of realizing the nature of mind, or the Buddha nature.

          Buddhist teachers in the west tend to have a community of students who practice together and become friends. Some are quite big and people get really involved in them. In the east its pretty well integrated with the society and culture. In Tibet, the monasteries were land owners and there were a lot of monks, a lot of families had a son in one of the monasteries, and Buddhism permeated the culture. The Tibetans tend to be warm and cheerful, maybe as their tradition emphasises the development of compassion and the ultimate goal of enlightenment for the benefit of others. That’s not individualistic! Maybe the Theravada tradition emphasises individual liberation more. But still, in Thailand the monks live together, receive food from the surrounding community and do prayers and practices for them.

        • Gay State Girl
          November 25, 2011 at 6:14 PM

          I believe the Buddhist monks and nuns are celibate though, so Buddhist monasteries lack the aspect of family life.

        • Steve
          November 26, 2011 at 1:02 AM

          There is a strong layperson practice tradition in Tibet too. Some of the highest lamas in Tibet marry and its considered a valid path. The western practitioners are mostly married or dating or want to.

  126. Asian Philosopher Om Tat Sat
    November 25, 2011 at 4:28 PM

    Steve, I agree 100% with everything you’ve said. The problems I’ve seen in India are problems I’ve seen throughout the entire Eastern countries I’ve been to. But of course India’s population is much more dense so its magnified. The main thing I see holding all those cultures back is their collectivism, which is the attitude you see in Dota here, who cannot conceive of a practitioner of Hinduism not being an Indian Nationalist. You see, in the typical Eastern mind you have to identify with a group. Either this or that. They can’t conceive that you might think both this and that is totally crap and you’ve forged your own way.

    I am much more at home around Western practicioners of Eastern traditions. They don’t give me a funny look everytime I show up with a new man ;)

    The East will become more materialist and the West will become more spiritual, more mystical, but NOT more religious in the repressive way that the East is religious.

    Therein lies the difference.

    • Gay State Girl
      November 25, 2011 at 4:34 PM

      “West will become more spiritual, more mystical, but NOT more religious in the repressive way that the East is religious.”

      I certainly hope so.

  127. Gay State Girl
    November 25, 2011 at 4:40 PM

    Ski
    Did you know Tolstoy was a Philosemite?

  128. Asian Philosopher Om Tat Sat
    November 25, 2011 at 4:44 PM

    GSG, the reason why your Jewish Buddhist friends (the Jew in the Lotus!) came back to Judaism for the “community spirit” was only because they were not part of an ETHNO-CULTURAL Buddhist sangha. Thai Buddhists will have strong community with other Thai Buddhists. Sri Lankan Buddhists will have strong community with other Sri Lankan Buddhists. The community is because of the ethno-cultural ties, not the religion.

    Buddhists from Eastern countries will be much more conservative than Western Jewish Buddhists who interpret Buddhism through a post-modern liberal lense.

    You said yourself your Jews in the Lotus were “hippie”. You will not really find “hippies” amongst people from the East. They are not that “open”.

  129. Asian Philosopher Om Tat Sat
    November 25, 2011 at 4:53 PM

    GSG, “I’m sorry I dissed Christianity.”

    You don’t need to apologize. You’re an AMERICAN. That means you are free to think and say whatever you want.

    That’s another thing about the Eastern Mind, they think everybody has to respect their religion. They even expect ATHEISTS to respect their religions.

    Like I said, they are uncomfortable with FREEDOM.

    • Gay State Girl
      November 25, 2011 at 5:00 PM

      AP
      Don’t feed the troll. Dota loves antagonizing people. He probably doesn’t even like Christianity, he’s just using it to bat Jews, just as the hardcore WNs use the Palestinians, though I like to think they share something in common.

  130. Asian Philosopher Om Tat Sat
    November 25, 2011 at 5:08 PM

    Notice how Dota NEVER addresses any of the issues here but goes on and on about ME?

    That is a TYPICAL DESI (South Asian) APPROACH TO AN ARGUMENT.

    They simply CANNOT engage with ISSUES. Even the ones who hold multiple PdDs are simply UNABLE to think outside of binary lines.

    Look at this, just because I came here and said I LIKE HINDU PHILOSOPHY he’s assumed the following;

    1. I’m a man
    2. I’m an Indian Nationalist
    3. I’m a Brahmin (LOL)
    and the worst of all in my estimation…
    4. I’m a collectivist/group thinker

    This is how the Eastern Mind works. Whether its Muslim, Hindu, Jain, Buddhist, etc doesn’t matter.

    These people are mired in collectivist thinking.

  131. Asian Philosopher Om Tat Sat
    November 25, 2011 at 5:19 PM

    “AP, Don’t feed the troll. Dota loves antagonizing people.”

    He’s a typical Desi guy.

  132. Asian Philosopher Om Tat Sat
    November 25, 2011 at 5:28 PM

    Dota, “Perhaps. However you’ll be hard pressed to find a Muslim or Christian who belives that they are inherently superior to other human beings. That the sanctity of their life is above those of non believers. They may believe that their belief systems are superior but that’s as far as they will go.”

    You can say that about Christianity but NOT Islam. The two ARE NOT EQUAL.

    As an independent, freedom-loving American woman AND a Hindu practicioner, I’ll take living in a Christian majority country ANY DAY over that of living in a Muslim majority one.

    Any. Day.

    • Dota
      November 25, 2011 at 5:50 PM

      “As an independent, freedom-loving American woman AND a Hindu practicioner, I’ll take living in a Christian majority country ANY DAY over that of living in a Muslim majority one.

      Any. Day.”

      And over a Hindu one too it seems, given the current location of your residence. Can’t blame you there though.

    • Steve
      November 25, 2011 at 6:32 PM

      In Sharia, isn’t a non-Muslim’s worth some specific fraction of a Muslim? It goes like Muslim man, Muslim woman, Christian man, Christian woman. And God help the polytheists. A lot of the Indians were given the choice of death or conversion because they weren’t ‘people of the book’ (actually one progressive Islamic school gave them that status) and therefore didn’t qualify for dhimmitude and extra taxation.

      • Dota
        November 25, 2011 at 7:29 PM

        Steve

        I’ve never heard of this. In classical sharia Non Muslims might be inferior in status, but not in worth. I’ve read secular literature from Abbasid times (namely the Arabian nights) and I’ve gotten the impression that the various religious communities lived in relative harmony with one another. Indians were not converted to Islam by the sword. Interestingly enough, a good chunk of Muslims in India were converted by missionary activity into Shiasm. Modern scholarship has also shown that Sunni rulers converted these shias with force back into the Sunni denomination. Hindus were seldom forced to convert although many of them did so to escape the infidel tax. The infidel tax was enforced and abandoned depending on the ruler and how liberal he was. Consider that only 10% of India’s population is Muslim today. At independence it was around 30% (before partition).

        • Steve
          November 26, 2011 at 2:27 AM

          I did a google search and found this about it:

          “…qisas, or retaliation, which allows for blood money to be paid by the perpetrator to the relatives of the deceased in cases of accidental death or even murder.

          In such cases, the compensation is higher if the victim was a Muslim than if he was a non-Muslim. Only the Hanafi school of Islamic jurisprudence allows for the possibility of capital punishment in the case of a Muslim who has murdered an unbeliever. The Maliki and Hanbali schools set a Muslim’s life as worth twice that of a non-Muslim — hence this Saudi Hanbali ruling below. The Shafi’i school sets a Muslim’s life as worth two-thirds that of a Jew or Christian. Polytheists, as here, are valued less. The Shafi’i Sharia manual ‘Umdat al-Salik dictates: “The indemnity for the death or injury of a woman is one-half the indemnity paid for a man. The indemnity paid for a Jew or Christian is one-third the indemnity paid for a Muslim. The indemnity paid for a Zoroastrian is one-fifteenth that of a Muslim.” (o4.9)

          From the website of the Consulate General of India, Jeddah, who is recording these matters because they come up in connection with his people who are working in Saudi Arabia (thanks to bestproject):

          4. Mode of Pavment [sic] :
          All Death Compensation cases (except industrial accidents) in Saudi Arabia are settled through concerned Shariat Courts in accordance with the Shariat Law.

          5. Maximum Amount admissible :

          The maximum amount of Death Compensation (Diyya) generally admissible in Saudi Arabia, in respect of road/traffic/fire accident, murder, etc. is as under:

          Death Compensation in respect of a male person:

          i. Muslim – SR. 100,000/-

          ii. Christian/Jew – SR.50,000/-

          iii. Other religions : such as Hindu, Buddhist, Jain, etc. – SR 6666.66

          In the case of death of a female, death compensation allowed is equal to half the amount as admissible to males professing the same religion”

          And here is something I found about the Islamic conquest of India:

          “There is no official estimate of the total death toll of Hindus at the hands of Islam. A first glance at important testimonies by Muslim chroniclers suggests that, over 13 centuries and a territory as vast as the Subcontinent, Muslim Holy Warriors easily killed more Hindus than the 6 million of the Holocaust. Ferishtha lists several occasions when the Bahmani sultans in central India (1347-1528) killed a hundred thousand Hindus, which they set as a minimum goal whenever they felt like “punishing” the Hindus; and they were only a third-rank provincial dynasty. The biggest slaughters took place during the raids of Mahmud Ghaznavi (ca. 1000 CE); during the actual conquest of North India by Mohammed Ghori and his lieutenants (1192 ff.); and under the Delhi Sultanate (1206-1526). The Moghuls (1526-1857), even Babar and Aurangzeb, were fairly restrained tyrants by comparison.

          Apart from actual killing, millions of Hindus disappeared by way of enslavement. After every conquest by a Muslim invader, slave markets in Bagdad and Samarkand were flooded with Hindus. Slaves were likely to die of hardship, e.g. the mountain range Hindu Koh, “Indian mountain”, was renamed Hindu Kush, “Hindu-killer”, when one cold night in the reign of Timur Lenk (1398-99), a hundred thousand Hindu slaves died there while on transport to Central Asia. Though Timur conquered Delhi from another Muslim ruler, he recorded in his journal that he made sure his pillaging soldiers spared the Muslim quarter, while in the Hindu areas, they took “twenty slaves each”. Hindu slaves were converted to Islam, and when their descendants gained their freedom, they swelled the numbers of the Muslim community”

          This is the kind of stuff I come across on the internet so if its wrong or exaggerated or not the whole story, then please set me straight.

          In the interests of transparency, here are my sources so you can criticise them if you wish:

          http://www.jihadwatch.org/2010/11/sharia-a-muslims-life-is-worth-twice-that-of-a-jew-or-christian-and-fifteen-times-more-than-that-of.html

          http://koenraadelst.bharatvani.org/articles/irin/genocide.html

        • Dota
          November 26, 2011 at 1:12 PM

          Steve

          I haven’t studied Islamic law because I find it to be incredibly boring. Bear in mind that the interpretation of Sharia depends largely on the culture practicing it. You quoted the Qisas or retribution clause as interpreted by the Saudi justice system. In Iran it’s interpreted differently again. Here’s a case where an Iranian woman was given the right to exact revenge on her male assailant, unthinkable in Saudi or Afghanistan.

          http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011/jul/31/iran-acid-woman-pardons-attacker

          Malaysia and Indonesia are pestered by Islamists but still remain largely secular, and it shows. 2 well run and relatively modern and crime free societies which offer a decent standard of living.

          Secondly, I’m disappointed that you quoted Jihad Watch. Robert Spencer is not the most credible source of information on Islam and neither has any of his work been published in a peer reviewed academic journal.

          Lastly, the problem with looking at Indian History as a “muslims” persecuting “hindus” is largely bogus and intellectually dishonest.

          let me ask you this: When the US nuked Japan, did history books describe the incident as Christians killing Buddhists? So why is it when an Afghan King (Ghazni) pillages Somnath its interpreted as ‘Muslim persecution of Hindus’? It’s ridiculous. Secular academics like Romila Thapar have pointed out that the incident should be looked at Afghans killing Gujaratis. I’m giving you the benefit of the doubt. If you are genuinely interested in Indian history, read some of Thapar’s books. She’s a proper scholar who has had her stuff peer reviewed. Hindutva Historians are only taken seriously in India and are a laughing stock outside of India.

        • Steve
          November 26, 2011 at 8:29 PM

          Hi Dota,

          it talks about the rulings of the four major Sunni schools of Islamic jurisprudence. In three out of the four, a Christians life is worth less than a Muslims, as measured by compensation for killing, and a non-person of the books life is worth even less.

          I understand that these laws wont be applied across most of the Islamic world because most Islamic countries have parts of a secular legal code and select what they want to apply from Sharia and how to interpret it. Murder would very likely be an area of reform. The reason I quoted it was because it gives information about the traditional Islamic law, unmitigated by modernity. I may be wrong (for example these laws may have been ignored in certain times and places under more liberal rulers), but I’m assuming that what the source describes was standard law within the jurisdiction of the legal school most or all of the time. You can refute that if you are able and I may do some research myself.

          I also assume that since 3 out of the 4 schools agree on the greater worth of a Muslim life, its most likely that there is precedence for this in the scriptures.

          …………………………………………………………………………………………..

          “let me ask you this: When the US nuked Japan, did history books describe the incident as Christians killing Buddhists? So why is it when an Afghan King (Ghazni) pillages Somnath its interpreted as ‘Muslim persecution of Hindus’? It’s ridiculous.”

          You have an excellent point here. And I would like to point out, in fairness, that non-Muslim conquerors, like Mongols and Christian Europeans, have historically been equally murderous. For example, Christians killed even more than 6 million native Americans in north and south America, possibly up to 13 million. It would be hard to outdo Christian armies in conquest and murder. Three questions that could be asked then: did Christian and Muslim armies believe that they were permitted by their religion? Did they use religious ideas to justify it, even though that wasn’t the main/real reason they were doing it? Did they do it because of their religion?

          I think yes for the first, probably yes for the second and no for the third.

          The thing that makes it problematic with Islam is that they could be primarily motivated by their religion, given the nature of Islam. They would only be following the example and furthering the project of Muhammad. Furthermore, the actual scriptures provide ample justification for this. Islam in its original, literal form is imperialistic.

          However, given that all other empires did basically the same things and they were non-Muslim, I’ll give Islam the benefit of the doubt and assume they were just doing what people did and Islam wasn’t the vital factor or primary motivation

        • Steve
          November 26, 2011 at 8:40 PM

          *when I said they could be primarily motivated by their religion, I meant motivated to conquer other lands and spread Islam. I didn’t specifically mean to massacre hundreds of thousands of people.

  133. Asian Philosopher Om Tat Sat
    November 25, 2011 at 5:46 PM

    @Bay Area Guy, “In Israel, virtually all forms of manual, blue collar labor (including construction) are referred to as “Arab work.”

    In the Arab Gulf countries manual labor is referred to as “Indian work”.

  134. Asian Philosopher Om Tat Sat
    November 25, 2011 at 5:57 PM

    @ Dota, I’d be interested to know what “certain Hindu practices” you think could “restore balance” to the West? What balance needs to be restored here exactly?

    You write, “If you’ve read my essay which Robert was kind enough to post you would notice that I freely admit that a certain element in Islamic theology is retarding to progress and Muslims must stop appealing to tradition if they wish to keep up. Pity Hindus lack the same introspection.”

    And yet why is that throughout the UK, Europe, Canada and the United States Desi Hindus and Sikhs are the assimilated and well liked “model minority” while Muslims are NOT?

    Especially in UK and other small European countries, the Muslims are ass-backwards?

  135. Bay Area Guy
    November 25, 2011 at 5:58 PM

    @ Dota

    Just curious, I have another question.

    You write of the various flaws of Indian culture and the plight of the lower castes, and yet Indian immigrants and Indian Americans are incredibly successful (as well as diaspora Indian communities in other Western countries).

    To which caste do most Indian immigrants to the U.S., Canada, and similar places belong? I’m guessing they come from very privileged backgrounds back in India.

    • Steve
      November 25, 2011 at 6:17 PM

      BAG, that’s not necessarily the case in the UK. You do quite people from all different castes here, including a lot from the more medium tier, if I can possibly put it like that. I had a friend who was from the barber caste in Gujarat. I can’t remember their name now but I think there a quite a lot of them here. The Indian born immigrants, the first generation, pretty much bring their Indian mentality with them but it starts to break down with the subsequent British born generations. My barber friend had a girlfriend from a caste his parents wouldn’t approve of. They kept the relationship secret for over a year and it may still be secret. They aren’t bothered themselves; its just so their Indian parents don’t break them up.

      Indians tend to emphasise hard work and education and they are generally more successful and affluent in British society than the Pakistani immigrants. I looked at some census data once and I think th Indians and Chinese had a higher average wage than white British ad the Pakistanis had lower average wage than the white British. You will find a lot of Indian doctors, lawyers, engineers, IT people. Their parents came with nothing, set up businesses (famously, convenience stores or ‘corner shops’) and worked very long hours. Then they made sure their kids got educated. In Manchester, though, there does seem to be a lot of Pakistani and Bangladeshi owners of restaurants, take aways and shops.

      • Steve
        November 25, 2011 at 6:22 PM

        I never thought about it before but I guess that is an argument against Dota.

      • Gay State Girl
        November 25, 2011 at 6:23 PM

        If I am not mistaken, South Asian muslims have been very successful as well. They just have boatlods of children and goats.

        • Dota
          November 25, 2011 at 6:37 PM

          Believe it. I’ve got many millionaires in my family. Some of them 100% unethical but supremely Indian.

        • Steve
          November 25, 2011 at 6:38 PM

          haha boatloads of children and goats.

        • Gay State Girl
          November 25, 2011 at 7:00 PM

          It’s true though. There was a Paki family living in my town who had eight children, 20 chickens, and two goats living in a standard suburban house with a relatively small yard. The wife slaughtered the chickens by hand and they resolved to have the goats sleep in the basement during the winter as their shed was too small.

    • Dota
      November 25, 2011 at 7:13 PM

      @ BAG

      The rule of thumb when analyzing Indian society is caste. It’s been around for thousands of years and it’s not going to go away despite the musings of Independent freedom loving American Hindu women. But while there are 4 main castes (Brahmins, Kshatriya, Vaishya and Shuddra) each of these is also subdivided by occupation known as ‘Jati.’ For example Gandhi came from the Vaishya (trader) caste but his sub caste (jati) was ‘Gandhi’ which means grocer. Hindu apologists will often share sob stories about poor Brahmins and powerful untouchables but that’s not any different than the 3 Arab parties in the Knesset boast. For interest’s sake skim through this article by Aakar Patel:

      “”This concentration of Brahmins in central positions is for one reason: The Brahmin is the intellectual keeper of the Hindutva flame.”"”

      http://www.livemint.com/2011/02/10204947/BJP8217s-sole-currency-is-i.html

      This line is particularly interesting:

      “”Curiously, Nehru’s defence minister was a warrior (Singh), his agriculture minister was a peasant (Deshmukh), his finance minister was Vaish (Chetty) and his education minister was a scholar (Azad), following Manusmriti. (Law treatise that deals with caste structure amoung other things)”"

      To your original question

      I’m not sure about the US diaspora community since I’ve only visited the US on a couple of occasions. From my experience however, there seem to be a lot of Patels in the US (Kumar from Harold and Kumar is a Patel). These guys are from Gujarat and technically from a peasant caste who have absorbed the Gujarati business culture. Hence their industrious nature. Not all of them come from privileged backgrounds however. Indians are hard working people and tend to excel in meritocracies. Bear in mind tho Indian culture does not stress morality (in the traditional western sense) but duty (Dharma). This general amorality is what enables Indians to shine in Capitalist America but only put up a mediocre performance in socialist Canada and Europe.

      Some people claim that South Asian Muslims lack this work ethic, but that’s nonsense. Foreign born Indian wannabes who don’t speak their mother tongues tend to lay too much emphasis on religion, but none on caste. Lets turn to Pakistan. The communities that drive Pakistan’s economic growth are basically Muslims who were converted from the trader castes. Again for interest sake you might read this article from the same author

      The Gujaratis of Pakistan: http://www.thenews.com.pk/TodaysPrintDetail.aspx?ID=161405&Cat=9&dt=2/8/2009

      for more on the workings of caste in modern India:

      http://hathiwala.wordpress.com/2011/08/23/why-india-is-part-dysfunctional-fully-functional/

      @ AP

      Appart from the obvious logical fallacy of comparing 2 regional communities to a global one, I still must agree with you. Muslims are backward and there is no getting around it. Although I see far more attempts at reform in Islam than I ever will in Hinduism, Muslims still have a long way to go. Muslims also need to outgrow their stupid colonial mindset. Actually in short Muslims just need to grow the fuck up.

      • Steve
        November 25, 2011 at 8:15 PM

        Dota, you said socialist Europe so I tried to look up some stats for Britain I was surprised. Government spending was 53% of GDP in 2010 (wow) compared to 40% in 1997 (Labour government!). 6 million people (2010) work in the public sector out of a working population of about 37 million (figure from 2004, latest I can find). We have ‘big government’ as the Americans say but we still have a big private sector that accounts for the majority of employment and we have a market economy.

        Anyway, Indians do well in Britain. I haven’t looked it up but I’m pretty sure you’ll find a lower crime rate for Indians than Pakistanis and other Muslims. Probably lower than every Muslim population. Probably even lower than white British. There is certainly morality in Indian culture. For one thing, they believe in karma. You’re not going to do evil things if you really believe in karma, unless you are stupid. Kindness and sympathy are Hindu values. Hospitality is too. Selfishness and greed are seen as negative. Its not true that Hindu culture is amoral or morality is purely defined by caste duty. Indians do well in Britain because they have a culture that encourages them to do well. They do it honestly.

        • Dota
          November 25, 2011 at 8:49 PM

          Dharma defined through Caste obligation gets top priority, always. At least in India. I’ve only been to the UK once so I can’t say much.

          “”For one thing, they believe in karma. You’re not going to do evil things if you really believe in karma, unless you are stupid.”"”

          I think it was Angana Chatterji who wrote (in one of her books/papers cant remember which) that the only way a Shudra could become a Brahmin was through his karma in the next life, but never in this one. In other words, if the Shudra is a dutiful and obedient slave, Karma will make him a Brahmin in the next life thereby giving him the opportunity to lord over a horde of Shudras and Dalits. Is this morality? Morality is Universal. An example of this would be Cyrus liberating the Jews from Babylon despite having no connection to the Jews in any way. Hinduism sanctions inequality hence the scope of morality is permanently retarded.

          Steve, after reading your posts carefully I’ve come a conclusion: I’ve yet to meet a Hindu who interprets India’s tradition in the same way as you do. You seem to harness the positive and leave out the negative, or at least you try to. But you do so because you already have certain per-concieved notions about social responsibility and Human dignity which were inculcated in you by your western upbringing. You then read the Indian scriptures and derive an interpretation using your western values as a lens. Indians do not know these values and hence Hinduism is one never ending nightmare for many people in India. If Hinduism is to flourish in the West, it will be due to the Western Values that shape it in its own image, and not some inherently enlightened message coded into Hindu scriptures.

  136. Asian Philosopher Om Tat Sat
    November 25, 2011 at 6:30 PM

    Bay Area Guy,

    You are conflating caste with economic status.

    In India there are a lot of poor people, regardless of caste. Poor Bengali Brahmins will migrate from their villages to work as maids in the houses of lower caste, wealthier Indians in Kolkata or other states.

    Brahmins in Tamil Nadu had to leave and find jobs in Maharastra because of job reservations (Affirmative Action) for non-Brahmins.

    Agriculturalists are often the wealthiest people in India but are not of “high caste”.

    The governor of Uttar Pradesh is a Dalit (lowest caste “untouchable”) and has just been voted into HER 4th term.

    Remember, regardless of caste MANY people in India are poor. The wealthiest people I know are NOT Brahmins.

    Whatever caste an Indian is, they now want to be categorized under “scheduled caste” so that they can get reservations (Affirmative Action).

    What is an advantaged caste in one area may be disadvantaged in another. What was previously an advantage caste may not be disadvantaged and able to benefit from reservations (Affirmative Action).

    For some reason this is something that Westerners are unable to comprehend.

    Caste is like tribal affiliation and reflects cultural identity and within each caste are a myriad of sub-castes with various cultural customs that reflect the region and language those people come from, as well as eating habits.

    West Indians (from the Caribbean) were mainly from a mixture of the shudra-vaishya caste (forming a NEW caste) who were engaged in agriculture and they went as bonded labor from Central India to Trinidad and Guyana and worked the land there. Now they are a major demographic on both islands and perform a wide variety of work and make up various socio-economic classes.

    There is a difference between jati, varna, and socio-economic class but Westerners conflate all of the above as “caste”.

    Its confusing so I don’t expect anyone to understand, even many Indians don’t.

    Bottomline: Indian immigrants to the West run the gamut of caste, culture, religion and regional backgrounds.

    Caste, as a cultural identity, is good as the Eastern mind takes pride in cultural markers.

    What is bad is caste DISCRIMINATION.

    I’m an equal oppurtunity dater and I can tell you, no matter what the caste, Desi guys’ first alliance is to their MOTHERS!

    (Goris beware!)

    • Steve
      November 25, 2011 at 6:47 PM

      Brahmins working as servants for lower castes is a modern development, though, right? Is it a case of economic status taking precedence under capitalism as a determinant of hierarchy and breaking down the caste order?

    • Robert Lindsay
      November 25, 2011 at 7:04 PM

      I’m an equal oppurtunity dater and I can tell you, no matter what the caste, Desi guys’ first alliance is to their MOTHERS!

      LOL, wusses. Most guys have some of that in us, but not too much. There were gf’s my Mom did not “approve” of, but I more or less told her to piss off. But I did feel guilty about that, though. The thing is, I respect my Mom’s opinion. She’s an individualistic Westerner. If she doesn’t approve of some women I am with (rare case probably) I probably ought to listen to her.

      Anyway, disapproval might just mean comments like, “Well, she is not your intellectual equal.” Stuff like that. More like comments or misgivings or warnings than out and out disapproval. Which I already know anyway. If my Mom really doesn’t like some woman, there is a good chance that she is BAD NEWS and I just can’t see it. So it would be good to examine her reasoning.

      Also, my Mom has tremendous disdain for what she calls Momma’s boys, and that is a pretty cool attitude in a Mom!

      • Steve
        November 25, 2011 at 7:19 PM

        the Mauritian female friends I had (they’re ethnically Indian) used to accuse me of being a mommy’s boy like an Indian. I got a bit annoyed me because I thought they were insulting my masculinity. I think they liked trying to tease me.

  137. Asian Philosopher Om Tat Sat
    November 25, 2011 at 6:41 PM

    Dota says to me, “You’ve done your fair share of attacking so please don’t cry.”

    LOL. I called him a “typical Desi guy” and that qualifes as “attacking”.

    SMH. Indians drive me crazy.

    • Steve
      November 25, 2011 at 6:49 PM

      You did a little more than just call him a Desi guy, to be fair. You’ve been saying he thinks in a certain way and can’t comprehend this and that because of his background.

  138. Asian Philosopher Om Tat Sat
    November 25, 2011 at 6:48 PM

    “Indians tend to emphasise hard work and education and they are generally more successful and affluent in British society than the Pakistani immigrants. I looked at some census data once and I think th Indians and Chinese had a higher average wage than white British ad the Pakistanis had lower average wage than the white British. You will find a lot of Indian doctors, lawyers, engineers, IT people. Their parents came with nothing, set up businesses (famously, convenience stores or ‘corner shops’) and worked very long hours. Then they made sure their kids got educated. ”

    Yes wherever Indians go they are the “model minority”.

    But there is one area of life they totally suck in….. can anyone guess?

  139. Asian Philosopher Om Tat Sat
    November 25, 2011 at 6:58 PM

    Steve, that may have been a later development but Brahmins were never, as a general rule, a “wealthy caste”.

    Traditional Brahmin work, as in back in the day, was study of the Vedas and performing rituals for the village community at times like the birth of a child or the death of an elder, etc. They depended on donations for the ritual performances and unless a Brahmin was able to affiliate himself with a very wealthy sponsor, such as a member of royalty or a wealthy agriculturalist/trader, he and his family would be living a very spartan life, which is the life many Brahmins and many people in general live in India even today.

    And when you hear talk of the “Indian middle class” that doesn’t mean they are living with all the comforts of American ghettos. There is a vast difference in the standard of living between the Western world and the East.

    However, the middle classes in South Asia and the Middle East can easily afford maids. Even the maids have maids.

    • Steve
      November 25, 2011 at 7:07 PM

      They had high status and were pretty strict about not being contaminated by contact with the low castes, though, right? I mean, it would have been pretty unthinkable in the past for a Brahmin to be the servant of a low caste, would it not?

      You could have helped me when I was writing my dissertation. You’ve made some very informative comments. My dissertation (major piece of written work in final year of uni) was on Max Weber’s religion of India, specifically about caste. u know ROI?

  140. Gay State Girl
    November 25, 2011 at 7:11 PM

    AP
    I enjoy reading about Indian society.

    Lindsay
    Do you believe all the things Dota said about me?

  141. Asian Philosopher Om Tat Sat
    November 25, 2011 at 7:15 PM

    Steve -

    Ahhh. Dhimmitude and extra taxation. Watch the videos of an Indian Muslim “scholar” by the name of Zakir Naik on youtube. Most of his videos are in English.

    Speaking of which, there are plenty of Brahmin-caste Indians working for Arabs in the Gulf Countries and being treated like shit.

    Dota-

    Dota
    November 25, 2011 at 5:50 PM
    “As an independent, freedom-loving American woman AND a Hindu practicioner, I’ll take living in a Christian majority country ANY DAY over that of living in a Muslim majority one.

    Any. Day.”

    And over a Hindu one too it seems, given the current location of your residence. Can’t blame you there though.

    —

    No actually. The best place I’ve ever lived was Bali. Its predominantly Hindu. Beautiful tropical paradise, clean and sweet, happy, laid-back people.

    That’s why I don’t think the repressed, uptight anal retentiveness is a Hindu trait, but rather a genetic one.

  142. Asian Philosopher Om Tat Sat
    November 25, 2011 at 7:30 PM

    Steve, they would have been particularly careful about food.

    Traditionally most if not all Brahmins were strict vegetarians and followed strict ritualistic purity rules because they were, well, performing rituals. That was their role in society and it still is for some of them.

    You know the strict vegans in the West who refuse to eat out in restaurants because the pots will have had meat in them? Same thing.

    But most Indians, even today and regardless of caste are wary of eating out. Indians are HOMEBODIES and like their food and all personal activities at home. Take out is largely homecooked meals delivered in tiffins.

    However in the major cities where MacDonald’s and lots of street food stalls are, there are plenty of people eating out, but in the same cities you will find people who will only eat at home.

    However MOST Indians are cleanliness freaks, regardless of caste. The irony is that India is so dirty! They are cleanliness freaks when it comes to their bodies and their personal space, the home, not the external environment. They will throw trash outside anywhere and in many places there is not a sufficient method of dealing with trash to the extent that it gets thrown. Plastic is a major concern.

    Google “eve teasing” if you want to learn about one of the worst things there.

  143. Asian Philosopher Om Tat Sat
    November 25, 2011 at 7:43 PM

    “This line is particularly interesting:

    ”Curiously, Nehru’s defence minister was a warrior (Singh), his agriculture minister was a peasant (Deshmukh), his finance minister was Vaish (Chetty) and his education minister was a scholar (Azad), following Manusmriti. (Law treatise that deals with caste structure amoung other things)”

    Dota, wasn’t Azad a MUSLIM?

    Anyway, if those people had the knowledge he needed, why not hire them?

    It makes sense that those who would have the most knowledge of finances are those who had been dealing in that the most. And a peasant would have knowledge of agriculture. Duh.

    {GSG, Desi Americans call Patels “the Jews of India” – LOL}

    Caste is not bad. What is bad is CASTE DISCRIMINATION and reservations like Affirmative Action, have been seeking to right that wrong now for a good while.

    India is overpopulated and its hard to get a handle on things because there’s soooooooooooo many people in such a small geo area. If an earthquake wipes out half, that might not actually be a bad thing. Maybe I shouldn’t have said that?

    Let me clarify that, if an earthquake wipes out all the EVE TEASERS (google it), it would not be a bad thing.
    ;)

    And that would probably be half the population right there.

    • Gay State Girl
      November 25, 2011 at 7:45 PM

      The overseas Chinese are the Jews of Asia.

    • Dota
      November 25, 2011 at 8:12 PM

      “”Dota, wasn’t Azad a MUSLIM?”"

      What makes you think that Muslims can escape their caste behavior? Read the articles I linked to BAG. I’ve lived in India and after moving to Dubai spent every other summer there. I can confirm every observation Aakar Patel makes regarding caste. Indian Muslims converted from trader castes (mostly Gujarati) are generally quite financially successful. I am a Dawoodi Bohra from the Ismaili sect of Shia Islam. My ancestors were from the Vaishya (trader caste) varna and were converted to Islam via missionary activity in the 12th century. It’s then no coincidence that there are so many millionaires in my family and why the Bohra community is filthy rich. In India caste > religion ALL THE TIME. Hindutwadis don’t see this because the movement is dominated by Brahmins who pretend that caste doesn’t exist. Sort of like Jews pretending that they are powerless.

      “”Caste is not bad. What is bad is CASTE DISCRIMINATION”"

      Caste IS discrimination. The two are not mutually exclusive dear girl. This is why the Europeans were able to shake of Feudalism while India still languishes under the caste system. For example, in India you would refer to a woman older than yourself with the respectful suffix “didi.” An older woman is referred to as “aunty.” Notice how little children suspend social etiquette when addressing their maids by their first names? where does this come from? The Manusmiriti states that a 100 year old Kshatriya must treat a 10 year old Brahmin with the same respect as he would his father. Caste is degrading, it is inhumane. Defining the boundaries of an unborn human being is the worst form of tyranny. Shudras that commit certain crimes are put to death, whereas Brahmins get a haircut. This is classical Hinduism. Now contrast this to Christian Europe where Henry the 8th couldn’t get a divorce from the church. This is because the same laws of Christian marriage that applied to peasants living in mud huts also applied equally to the King. This is the beauty of Christianity which I am no longer afraid to admit (The local Pakis here call me a Christian lover lol). There is no such parallel in Indian culture.

      One of the reasons Hinduism has never stressed social justice is because it is irrelevant. Social justice holds that humans are equal in worth if not in status. Hence charity is used as a tool to mitigate the effects of class inequality. In the caste system this is irrelevant since inequality are sanctioned.

  144. Asian Philosopher Om Tat Sat
    November 25, 2011 at 7:56 PM

    Out of all the dozens upon dozens of languages in South Asia, why does Dota assume my “mother tongue” is Hindi written in a Devanagari script?

    Sounds like some language prejudice he’s got goin’ on there.

  145. Asian Philosopher Om Tat Sat
    November 25, 2011 at 8:32 PM

    No, I’ve never heard little kids call their maids by their first names. Its always Aunty. Maybe in YOUR household you did that though.

    “Shudras that commit certain crimes are put to death, whereas Brahmins get a haircut. ”

    If anyone putting a shudra to death for a crime and giving a brahmin a haircut for the same then they need to be wiped out in the earthquake along with all the eve-teasers. Chancers are both the shudra and the brahmin, as well as the law-enforcer are all eve-teasers anyway.

    Funny how you want to quote all the crap from Manusmriti without qouting the crap from Quran. Millions of Muslims read Quran but you’d be hardpressed to find any Hindu who reads Manusmriti. That book is NOT a spiritual book and was never popular but Quran is!

    The future of any Eastern spirituality lies with Westerners. We take the good and progressive and leave behind the bullshit.

    Are Muslims willing to edit the bullshit verses in the Quran? Because that is EXACTLY what will have to happen before Islam can hope to make “progress”.

    Lets see.

    In the meantime progressive people and Indian women will keep it movin’.

    Indian women should co-habitate with Western men like Steve and Seedofjapeth here who’s interested in Indian spirituality sans all the baggage like arranged marriage and living with in laws.

    • Dota
      November 25, 2011 at 9:05 PM

      “”No, I’ve never heard little kids call their maids by their first names. Its always Aunty. Maybe in YOUR household you did that though.”"

      No, we called our maids “apa.” I was refering to other households both Hindu and Muslim which I’d frequent as a kid. I’ve seen it. I’ve seen more of Indian culture up close than you ever will. You should visit sometime.

      “”Are Muslims willing to edit the bullshit verses in the Quran? Because that is EXACTLY what will have to happen before Islam can hope to make “progress”.”"

      It’s called re-interpretation and it happens frequently with varying levels of success. A pity Hinduism lacks reform. Muslims have a history of engaging their religion. The Mutazalite philosophers used Greek philosophy to challenge the corruption of the Ummayad dynasty of the 7th century as Majid Fakhry points out in his book.

      Medieval Muslim Jurists re-evaluated slavery by stating that freedom was the natural condition of man, as pointed out by Bernard Lewis (who is otherwise a critic of Islam):

      “It became a fundamental principle of Islamic jurisprudence that the natural condition, and therefore the presumed status, of mankind was freedom”

      http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/med/lewis1.asp

      Where was such resistance to caste in Indian history? It would seem that Aakar Patel is once again proven right when he observes that the Indian is merely a passive receiver of culture.

      “”The future of any Eastern spirituality lies with Westerners. We take the good and progressive and leave behind the bullshit. “”

      Fair enough. Time will tell.

      “”Indian women should co-habitate with Western men like Steve and Seedofjapeth here who’s interested in Indian spirituality sans all the baggage like arranged marriage and living with in laws.”"

      They can have you. India is a treasure trove of marriageable women, real women. Not the painted shells that are ‘liberated women.’ Diaspora desi chicks are damaged goods anyway. And besides, there’s way too many Indians in this world anyway, so I’m not concerned with endogamy as White nationalists are forced to.

      • Steve
        November 25, 2011 at 9:46 PM

        ‘you should visit some time’ lol sorry AP but funny is funny

        ‘Where was such resistance to caste in Indian history?’

        Ambedkar?

        • Dota
          November 25, 2011 at 10:59 PM

          Steve

          Ambedkar is a bad example. Normally people that get fed up with Hinduism run of and form their own religions. Gautam Siddharth did this and so did Guru Nanak. Indians yield too much ground to this nonsense. It would have been far more worthwhile if Ambedkar would have actually engaged Hinduism form the inside. But OTOH I certainly can’t blame people for quitting Hinduism though quitting is no long term solution. Ergo Hinduism is just as primitive and cruel as it was thousands of years ago.

  146. Gay State Girl
    November 25, 2011 at 8:49 PM

    Lindsay
    Lindsay, Do you think my posts are retarded? Be honest.

    I’ll digress. I enjoy wallowing in your misery. There is nothing quite as sweet as believing the world owes you. When I’m miserable, I feel as if I’m in the company of some of the greatest minds to set put on earth.

    AP
    And likewise Jewish girls should shun Jewish men.

  147. Gay State Girl
    November 25, 2011 at 8:53 PM

    Have you heard from Andyboy lately?

  148. Asian Philosopher Om Tat Sat
    November 25, 2011 at 8:55 PM

    Robert, I was talking about the major ones, not local dialects.

    Maybe I should start an online service for hooking up South Asian women who are sick of mama boys and living with their ma-in-laws with Western men?

    However my requirement would be that you guys have to “convert” to Hinduism first, LOL. Even if the Desi girl is a Muslim. ;)

    Whaddaya say boys? Want some Kama Sutra action in the bedroom?

    “Gay State Girl
    November 25, 2011 at 4:02 PM
    “Still, the amount of attention that they receive from the MSM is beyond absurd.”

    True. Christianity does receive a disproportionate amount of flak for all it’s evils. But the ridicule is directed more at cracker culture than Christianity.”

    GSG -

    Only where Christianity is a majority does it receive “flak”. In places where its a minority it would be coddled and cooed.

  149. Asian Philosopher Om Tat Sat
    November 25, 2011 at 9:04 PM

    “And likewise Jewish women should shun Jewish men”

    Why???

    I’ve dated a few Jews. And Muslims. And Hindus. And Christians. And Buddhists. And, and, and….

    The stories I could tell!

    I definetly have my perferences…..

  150. Dota
    November 25, 2011 at 9:10 PM

    Speaking of Old friends, I want Lafayette and Heg to come back! And Uncle Joe/Nazbol!

    • Bay Area Guy
      November 26, 2011 at 10:51 AM

      Speaking of Old friends, I want Lafayette and Heg to come back! And Uncle Joe/Nazbol!

      Definitely!

      I really want Wade and Lafleur to come back as well.

  151. Asian Philosopher Om Tat Sat
    November 25, 2011 at 9:14 PM

    GSG, liberal media skews pro-minority. Therefore in countries where Christians are a minority, you will find liberal media sticking up for them as if they are the “underdog”.

    Steve, I’m not sure its appropriate subject matter for this blog. ;)

    Let me say this – Indians are amongst THE WORST in the crimson arts.

    They can be very romantic and emotional, which is good, but when it comes to skill sets, uh, they need A LOT of coaching.

  152. Gay State Girl
    November 25, 2011 at 9:18 PM

    Jewish men are nice as long as you’re not a jewishgirl. They feel like they don’t need to treat Jewish girls well because they know they’re desperately seeking Jewish men anyway, so they don’t try very hard to impress us or make us comfortable. Jewish men are always degrading Jewish girls too. They might marry a beautiful blond shiksa just to let the world know that they’re out of the ghetto and then make their jewish female relatives and acquaintances feel small as well. Those who do marry homely Jewish women always take pleasure in mocking them. I’ve never dated a Jewish man and don’t intend to (though I do have my eye on one :) ) But when I see Jewish comedians mock their female relatives and boasttheir blond shiksa as a marker for success, I take comfort in the idea that I can bear Jewish children and they can’t.

    • Steve
      November 25, 2011 at 9:25 PM

      you must be over generlising. I mean, there’s gotta be a lot of individual good guys who want to treat their Jewish woman well. surely! no?

      • Gay State Girl
        November 25, 2011 at 9:38 PM

        Like my baby.
        They’ll take care of you, and give you everything you ask for, but they always let you know you’re inferior. Even my father, who is Orthodox and generally a good family man, loves to watch fashion shows just to look at the models.

  153. Gay State Girl
    November 25, 2011 at 9:29 PM

    Gay Area Guy is light years ahead of Dota. I’m probably closer in age to Dota than to GAG, but GAG outsmarts us both. GAG is the genius child, both scholarly and emotionally.

    Dota
    Heg is cute, I feel sorry for him. I think LS took up my advice and joined the PSM so he could enjoy quality time with the all the little Palestinian girls and boys.

    • Bay Area Guy
      November 25, 2011 at 11:36 PM

      @ GSG

      Wow, I don’t know what to say!

      Well, first of all, I’d just like to sincerely thank GSG for such a nice compliment! Haven’t received such a nice compliment for quite a while.

      I wouldn’t say I’m a genius child. There are certain topics and issues that greatly interest me, which motivates me to read up on them and then passionately discuss my opinion.

      One of the main reasons I frequent this blog is because I can’t engage in such intellectual or scholarly discussions among my everyday peer group. I’m not saying they’re dumb or anti-intellectual or anything, they just don’t share my interest in such issues.

      This is one of the view places where I can try my best to articulate my views in a passionate and sophisticated manner.

      Re: emotional maturity

      I like to think that I’m emotionally mature in disciplined in certain ways. Despite peer pressure, I’ve always refrained from drug use and drinking. I rarely if ever engage in risky behavior.

      On this blog, I also take great pains to try to be civil and respectful towards individual commenters, even if I strongly disagree with them. I’ve even tried hard to be personally civil and polite with Huax and Hacienda.

      (though I did make a bit of an exception for our good hasbara agent Andyboy)

      I do wish that I were a little less angry and judgmental at times. I also wish I were a little less self-regulated and uptight in certain social situations. Good knows this would help me with women! ;-)

      (though as many commenters have pointed out, my girl problems is in many ways a symptom of this gender bizarre Western society I live in)

      I like to think of myself as a young, inquisitive and curious white male adult, trying to navigate his way through the complexities and chaos of the 21st century U.S.

      Right now, I’m just looking for answers, and trying to figure out what I’m going to do with the rest of my life.

      If GSG’s response is a sign of anything, I should pursue a career in writing.

    • Bay Area Guy
      November 25, 2011 at 11:39 PM

      Apologies for a couple of typos (you know how long blog posts are)

      *few places*

      *and disciplined*

      *are in many ways*

  154. Asian Philosopher Om Tat Sat
    November 25, 2011 at 9:30 PM

    “They can have you. India is a treasure trove of marriageable women, real women. Not the painted shells that are ‘liberated women.’ Diaspora desi chicks are damaged goods anyway. And besides, there’s way too many Indians in this world anyway, so I’m not concerned with endogamy as White nationalists are forced to.”

    GSG and Steve ^^^^^^^

    See what I mean? Desi men are old before their time.

    I was talking about Desi women in South Asia, by the way, no the diaspora. Most in the diaspora don’t have arranged marriages or live with in laws.

    I want to help Indo-Pak women who are fed up with that lifestyle (many).

    Consider it akin to “the white man’s burden” but I’m not a white man ;)

    GSG, “homely” in Indo-Pakinese means “domesticated”, not plain-looking. Its what they put in the matrimonial ads.

    “Parents looking for fair, homely, convent educated girl with family values for their Engineer boy, 26. Sister married to doctor and settled in Singapore. Caste no bar.”

    • Dota
      November 25, 2011 at 9:41 PM

      “I was talking about Desi women in South Asia, by the way, no the diaspora. ”

      Shit why didn’t you say so, that’s not so bad. I’ve often told BAG and other White nationalists that their only shot at marital bliss lies in marrying an Asian woman (east or south). Western women are too broken and dysfunctional. 4 decades of Gender Feminism will do that to you. Come one come all, there’s plenty in India for everybody. Maybe this will put some pressure on the Honour killing shitheads in Haryana and Bihar to get their act together. I think we might actually agree on something AP

    • Robert Lindsay
      November 25, 2011 at 9:43 PM

      There are lots of Punjabi girls around here, but they have nothing to do with anyone but Punjabi guys. There are only a few Gujarati Patel Hindus around here, and they are untouchable too. I think they only go for Indian guys. Indian women around here are more or less untouchable if you are not Indian.

      • Hacienda
        November 26, 2011 at 9:42 AM

        “There are lots of Punjabi girls around here, but they have nothing to do with anyone but Punjabi guys.”

        That’s bullshit. It’s time to stop giving Indians a free pass on this. If Indian men want the priviledge of relations with non-Indian women, then non-Indian men get to have relations with Indian women. They’ve been “under the radar on this”.

  155. Asian Philosopher Om Tat Sat
    November 25, 2011 at 9:37 PM

    ^^^
    “Parents looking for fair, homely, convent educated girl with family values for their Engineer boy, 26. Sister married to doctor and settled in Singapore. Caste no bar.”

    Almost forgot. “Family values” in this context means she will live with her in-laws for the rest of her life and do their bidding day and night.

    A woman who asks her groom to be if its kinda, maybe, possible for them to get their own place is considered a “radical feminist with no family values”.

    • Dota
      November 25, 2011 at 9:48 PM

      “A woman who asks her groom to be if its kinda, maybe, possible for them to get their own place is considered a “radical feminist with no family values”.”

      Thats the problem with Diaspora Indians. They have an image of India frozen in the 60s. The nuclear family is in, has been for quite some time. You should visit the pitarbhoomi sometime. It’s amazing how certain aspects of Indian culture seem to be evolving while some like caste are a permanent fixture on our cultural landscape.

      • Steve
        November 25, 2011 at 9:56 PM

        Dota, is it not diminishing or breaking down in the cities where people live more modern lives? I mean, are we talking strict endogamy and socialising within the caste? aren’t people of different castes forced to interact in ways they wouldn’t have before?

        I will be surprised if things don’t change.

        • Dota
          November 25, 2011 at 10:13 PM

          Urban Indians are moving towards the Nuclear family model, slowly but surely. From my experiance Brahmins tend to be socially liberal whereas certain peasant castes tend be socially conservative.

          “”how long you been outside India? u in the states?”

          I’m in Canada (I’m a citizen). Last time I was there was about 3 years ago. I spent a few years of childhood in India while spending the other half in Dubai, but visiting India frequently enough, often for couple of months per visit. I was raised in a very traditional Indian household with traditional values and since 60% of Dubai’s population is Indian, I’ve always been immersed in the culture. I’ve also lived in Bahrain for about 4 years. My passport is a tapestry of foreign stamps =p

      • Steve
        November 25, 2011 at 10:08 PM

        another thing: jati is based on voction/job, right? So that’s gotta change with capitalism.

        and there is one law for all..so that’s a kind of reform, right? if its true what you said about unequal punishments..

        • Dota
          November 25, 2011 at 10:27 PM

          “another thing: jati is based on voction/job, right? So that’s gotta change with capitalism.”"

          Not ecxatly. A common misconception among most westerners is that they believe that the caste system is enforced from the top. Untrue. The caste system endures because people have internalized the idea and choose to faithfully remain on their social rung without deviating. You won’t find a single Brahmin in India who has the entire structure mapped out in his head, doesn’t work that way. Capitalism hasn’t changed this very much, although it has the potential to do so. For example, the peasant Jat caste still practices agriculture for the most part. The Gujaratis dominate the economy since they come from the merchant caste. The Punjabis (sikhs in particular) dominate the military since these are from the warrior caste (Kshatriya). Even in Pakistan it is the Punjabis who dominate the military whereas the gujarati Muslims (converted from the merchant castes) such as the memons and Bohris who run the economy. Pakistani society is dominated by caste yet the Pakis remain blissfully unaware of this. The Pakistanis need to realize that they have been Muslims for a 1000 years but have been Hindus for over 3000 years. Caste ain’t going anywhere in both countries.

          Capitalism has merely updated job descriptions and the caste system has merely accounted for these updates while keeping the status quo undisturbed.

          “and there is one law for all..so that’s a kind of reform, right? if its true what you said about unequal punishments..”

          Apologies, the example I had stated was from antiquity. In modern times caste discrimination still exists and the laws to combat it are rarely enforced.

    • Steve
      November 25, 2011 at 9:57 PM

      how long you been outside India? u in the states?

    • The Atheist Indian
      November 26, 2011 at 1:27 AM

      These days it is quite normal for women in India to demand that they live seperately from their in-laws. The whole staying with parents tapered off sometime in the middle of 1990s when housing loans became available and jobs paid enough to pay the EMIs.

  156. Asian Philosopher Om Tat Sat
    November 25, 2011 at 10:08 PM

    “Thats the problem with Diaspora Indians. They have an image of India frozen in the 60s. The nuclear family is in, has been for quite some time. You should visit the pitarbhoomi sometime. It’s amazing how certain aspects of Indian culture seem to be evolving ”

    You’re telling me that in the last 6 months the entire India has broken up into nuclear families? Wow! That was fast. When I was there EVERY home I went to was joint family ishtyle.

    “It’s amazing how certain aspects of Indian culture seem to be evolving ”

    Yeah? And from this comment……

    “I’ve often told BAG and other White nationalists that their only shot at marital bliss lies in marrying an Asian woman (east or south). Western women are too broken and dysfunctional. 4 decades of Gender Feminism will do that to you.”

    …….it seem you’re “evolving” the fastest of all!

  157. Asian Philosopher Om Tat Sat
    November 25, 2011 at 10:16 PM

    “Steve
    November 25, 2011 at 10:08 PM
    another thing: jati is based on voction/job, right? So that’s gotta change with capitalism.

    and there is one law for all..so that’s a kind of reform, right? if its true what you said about unequal punishments..”

    Steve, Dota the unequal punishment spheel is from an old archaic book that nobody reads (except for Desi Muslims when they want to prove how “progressive” Quranic dhimmitude is compared to uh, some old archaic book nobody reads.)

    I’d still like to know what aspects of Hinduism could help Westerners “restore balance” though. Me thinks it has to do something with “family values” and teh wimminz. Like the no divorce thing, perhaps.

    • Dota
      November 25, 2011 at 10:44 PM

      “”Steve, Dota the unequal punishment spheel is from an old archaic book that nobody reads (except for Desi Muslims when they want to prove how “progressive” Quranic dhimmitude is compared to uh, some old archaic book nobody reads.)”"”

      That’s the problem with people trying to study India from the outside. Visit India and observe the principles of the treatise play out before your eyes. Most Westerners will never touch a bible for as long as they live, and yet their behaviour and conduct are based upon christian values. Caste is huge and will continue to be that way. And Dhimmitude has been outdated for centuries, except in Afghanistan apparently. Even during the Abbasid Dynasty its laws were seldom enforced and existed on paper only to please the ulema class. If you want to resume bashing Islam, you’ll have to do better than that.

      “”I’d still like to know what aspects of Hinduism could help Westerners “restore balance” though. Me thinks it has to do something with “family values” and teh wimminz. Like the no divorce thing, perhaps.”"

      You would think wrong it seems, but you should be used to it by now ;)

      I was referring to meditation. Indian culture is overly introverted whereas western culture is extroverted. You can see this in poetry and art. Art is used as a form of decoration In India whereas it’s used as a form of representation in the west. A little introspection is good westerners. Also freedom from attachment in a material context only. This can help combat the ravages of materialism. Stuff like that.

      • Steve
        November 26, 2011 at 1:07 AM

        A lot of people still go to Christian schools in England and baptize their kids and have funerals in churches, so a lot of people touch bibles in their lifetime. They just don’t read them. I went to catholic schools and they were good schools. There are a lot of good Christian schools. Sometimes the parents pretend to be more Christian than they are to get the kids in.

  158. Asian Philosopher Om Tat Sat
    November 25, 2011 at 10:29 PM

    “From my experiance Brahmins tend to be socially liberal whereas certain peasant castes tend be socially conservative. ”

    How can it be? Scroll above and you’ll find Dota whining about “Brahminism” and how its “worse than White Privilege”.

    Both are bullshit.

    Typical pussified minority has to whine about something, always, somewhere. No matter how much money they have or how good their life is, if they are a minority of the pussified variety, they will find an “ism” to whine about.

    And liberals encourage it.

    • Dota
      November 25, 2011 at 10:48 PM

      “How can it be? Scroll above and you’ll find Dota whining about “Brahminism” and how its “worse than White Privilege”.”

      You missed the part where I also posted that certain aspects of Indian culture are evolving rapidly while some aspects are a permanent fixture of our cultural landscape. You also missed the part where I stated that Brahmin privilege isn’t always enforced from the top. Don’t nit pick my posts kid, there’s many ways of attacking me, but this approach is doomed to fail. tunk yew come again

  159. Gay State Girl
    November 25, 2011 at 10:55 PM

    “Most Westerners will never touch a bible for as long as they live, and yet their behaviour and conduct are based upon christian values.”
    Too much credit.

  160. Gay State Girl
    November 25, 2011 at 11:01 PM

    Lindsay
    Are you still alive?

    I found more unflattering photos of Cynthia.

    Just tell me if you think my posts are retarded and I’ll leave for good.

  162. Gay State Girl
    November 26, 2011 at 12:14 AM

    What? your comment is awaiting moderation.

  163. Asian Philosopher Om Tat Sat
    November 26, 2011 at 1:00 AM

    Steve
    November 25, 2011 at 9:46 PM
    ‘you should visit some time’ lol sorry AP but funny is funny

    ‘Where was such resistance to caste in Indian history?’

    Ambedkar?

    …………………….

    Steve, there are PLENTY. Hinduism is not monolithic, not centralized, there is no single book. There have been many sects and movements that have reformed or reinvented caste.
    Research the medieval Bhakti movements of North and South.
    Research Kashmir Shaivism.
    All the Indian “gurus” who left India to teach in the West have engaged with people across caste and cultural lines on an equal basis.
    Some Indian sects even make “brahmins” out of non-brahmins and Westerners.

    Don’t take a Dota’s word for anything on Hinduism. He is a rabid anti-Hindu Muslim.

    As far as Ambedkar, he could have easily joined any bhakti or yoga sect and made the same point, but he chose Buddhism. That’s his perogative.

    At the time he was alive the Bengali Bhakti movement was giving Brahmin upanayan samskar to all castes including untouchables. Sometimes even Indians are ignorant as to what their own culture is doing.

    I’m sick of Desi Muslims who don’t know shit about Hinduism coming on blogs like this talking out of their asses and then when someone like me comes on to say, whoa, hold on a minute, I get accused of being an “elitist brahmin Hindutwadi”.

    Really? Then your a f*cking terrorist plotting the next 9/11.

    Its like Hindus are supposed to sit back and let Muslims explain our religion and culture to the world?!?!?!?

    HELL FUCKING NO!!!!

    • Steve
      November 26, 2011 at 1:10 AM

      Amen sister.

    • Dota
      November 26, 2011 at 10:33 AM

      “”All the Indian “gurus” who left India to teach in the West have engaged with people across caste and cultural lines on an equal basis.
      Some Indian sects even make “brahmins” out of non-brahmins and Westerners.”"”

      It’s good business. Also I doubt that Westerner’s would take to kindly to caste and drinking cow piss for its medicinal properties. It’s called marketing; adjusting your message to account for local taste. Westerner’s are attracted to this romantic and mystical faith that promises them bliss in an ocean of materialism. Perhaps they would see things differently when dalits and Shudras (chote jati = lit inferior castes) are barred access to temples in India. Or when dalits are not even allowed to play cricket with Jats. Or the middle class Indian resentment at having dalit children share the same classroom with their kids (through AA).

      Is this so hard to believe?

      Not really, since the same is true for Islam. The Islam practiced in the west is fiercely equalist and indeed this appeals to westerners. It’s a far cry from the Islam practiced in Pakistan where Ahmedis and Christians are untouchable. Or in Saudi Arabia where the Arabs see themselves as God’s gift to mankind. Marketing.

      “”At the time he was alive the Bengali Bhakti movement was giving Brahmin upanayan samskar to all castes including untouchables. Sometimes even Indians are ignorant as to what their own culture is doing.”"

      The medieval bhakti movement was a nice idea to be sure, but unfortunately it’s ideology was not consonant with the Indian psyche and so caste remains.

      Is this so hard to believe?

      In China Mozi’s philosophy attacked Confucianism and tried to stress universal love instead of filial piety which was based on a clan mentality. Confucianism prevailed because its values jived with Chinese Psychology. To be fair, Mozi’s philosophy is making an astonishing comeback in modern China.

      Ultimately Equality is alien to Indian culture, which accounts for the limited success of the Bhakti movement despite is huge popularity at one time. You can see it when people refer to those higher up as ‘bade saab’ and those below are refered to as ‘chote log.’ Or when servants cannot eat from the same silverware used by the masters. Or when beggars are refered to as ‘slum dogs’ (Gali ka kutta). As a diaspora desi you have this ridiculous rosy and romanticized image in your head about Bharat Mata. Visit it, live there and watch how inequality is not just a philosophy, but a real practiced way of life. Try it sometime kid.

      People don’t talk about caste in India, it’s taboo to talk about in urban centers. However it is so deeply internalized that it’s invisible. Caste becomes especially relevant during election time.

  164. Xera
    November 26, 2011 at 9:21 AM

    Robert Lindsay

    I would like to know your opinion of the Arabic & Turkish centrist nature of Islam? There is a huge class & caste division within the world of Islam, that, in the nature of Islam taking over the world or becoming a major monolithic entity, would further disintegrate & fragment into separate groups. Typically the Islamic racial cast system hierarchy is organized like this:

    Arabs (Lebanese, Syrian) or Turks
    Any of the North African countries
    Iranians/Persians
    l
    l
    l
    l
    l
    l
    l
    l
    l
    l
    l
    > Pakistani’s/Indians/Bengali’s
    Asian Muslim countries
    I don’t understand why the groups at the bottom of the hierarchy continue to worship and seek the approval off the Arabs or any of the groups at the upper echelons. The actual prophet was an Arab and would probably openly despise the bottom groups if he were actually alive. The Arabs & Turks are openly racists toward the bottom groups, not so much against the Iranians, but they regularly practice racial segregation (gulf Arabs). I have heard Arabs make casual racist remarks or sneer at the Pakistani’s/Indians thinking they are “true” Muslims or when they come to their mosque’s. Poor Indian Muslims, can’t seem to grasp there is a caste system within the Muslim world and all are not equal in the eyes of Allah. So they go to find work in “Arabic Islamic countries” only to tragically find out all the “Muslims” want to enslave and exploit them and of course the “Sub-continentals” aren’t considered “real” Muslims; the worst thing I am sure is that some of them figure out that the top groups don’t see anything wrong with exploiting or treating them like filthy trash because their religion was only made in regards to themselves only. The Arabs continuously fund terrorist activities in the sub-continent so they can have access to their resources or use them for cannon fodder in their wars, but of course the moronic Muslims of South Asia continue to look up to them as “Muslim” brothers. Like something straight out of “uncle tom’s cabin”, South Asian Muslims continue to rationalize their miserable lives by not critically reflecting what’s wrong with them & their societies, Oh and they WANT to stay in a perpetual state of misery and helplessness and rationalize it using religion. They have mastered the art of turning places into shit holes, not developing their societies and staying in poverty for the rest of their lives while using “Allah” to get things and running to other countries expecting people to give them rights and places to stay because “Allah” will grant them that. South Asian Muslims tend to be pretty ugly as a group and given their mentality highlighted above, they are of course going to be the filthy looked down upon. There are special skin whitening products and surgeries that some of the lower tier groups undertake so that have access to higher positions in the “Islamic” social market. Marrying a lighten skinned Arab or Muslim, or someone of those features is moving up in the Islamic world. South Asian Muslim women hate their own men and vice versa because they know their counterparts suck in their eyes as suitable mates. What do you make of this Robert Lindsay?

  165. Asian Philosopher Om Tat Sat
    November 26, 2011 at 11:52 AM

    Robert, would you mind opening up a new thread for this topic? I cannot download the whole thing now because there are too many comments. You’re choice. I don’t know if there are more comments that need my input but I’ll address 2 from last night here.

    1. I said to Dota,
    “How can it be? Scroll above and you’ll find Dota whining about “Brahminism” and how its “worse than White Privilege”.”

    He replied,
    “You missed the part where I also posted that certain aspects of Indian culture are evolving rapidly while some aspects are a permanent fixture of our cultural landscape. You also missed the part where I stated that Brahmin privilege isn’t always enforced from the top. ”

    Dota, where you compared “Brahminism” to “White Privilege” was to Bay Area Guy and way up at the top, in October, before I ever came on here. Therefore no, at that time you were not presenting a wider view of India, Hinduism or caste AT ALL.

    Nobody questioned you because they don’t have the knowledge base or experience to do so, therefore you got away with it.

    When I came on you thought that everyone would side with you against the “fanatical hindutvadi” (whatever the hell that means – shaming language like “racist” “sexist” and “anti-semite” that has no meaning and is supposed to shut down debate, but never does)

    When you saw that this is NOT a naive Liberal Feminist blog (they will always defend Islam because they are SCARED of it), and that nobody was cheerleading you as the de facto representative of all things Hindu, Muslim and South Asian, then you started to backtrack.

    2. What you and Atheist Indian are trying to present that Indians live in nuclear family style homes is WRONG. It may be that in the major cities like Mumbai, Bangalore and Kolkata where Atheist India is from that some people are slowly catching on to that lifestyle but India is NOT a few metros. MOST Indians live in 2nd tier cities, towns and villages and they are living in joint family household 9 times out of 10.

    Typical Desi guys will try to present Indian men and their mothers in a modern light because they HATE that the entire world, including their own women, see them as effeminate mamas boys. Therefore they want to try to impress the world that they are modern, masculine, hot and “real men”.

    The fact is that the number one thing holding India back is this obsession between Indian mothers and their sons, arranged marriage and joint family living wherein Indian women are expected to live out their entire lives under the thumbs of their in-laws and the Indian mother in-law COMPETES with her own daughter-in-law for the attention of her son.

    Its creepy and borderline incestuous!

    Until that bullshit comes to an end NOTHING will change.

    • Dota
      November 26, 2011 at 12:44 PM

      “”Dota, where you compared “Brahminism” to “White Privilege” was to Bay Area Guy and way up at the top, in October, before I ever came on here. Therefore no, at that time you were not presenting a wider view of India, Hinduism or caste AT ALL. “”

      I’ve known many Hindus who hold a grudge against caste but are powerless to do anything about it. I speak for them as well. Why don’t you read those Hindus the riot act too?

      “”Typical Desi guys will try to present Indian men and their mothers in a modern light because they HATE that the entire world, including their own women, see them as effeminate mamas boys. Therefore they want to try to impress the world that they are modern, masculine, hot and “real men”.”

      translation: Look at me! I’m a liberated independent woman who flaunts her freedom by doing non Indian men! I’m such a rebel and that’s why I’m sexy!

      Cool story sis, more power to you. As I said, go mate with a non Indian if you find Indian men so repulsive. We’ve got way to many Indians in the world as it is.

  166. Asian Philosopher Om Tat Sat
    November 26, 2011 at 1:27 PM

    @Xera,
    “I would like to know your opinion of the Arabic & Turkish centrist nature of Islam? There is a huge class & caste division within the world of Islam, that, in the nature of Islam taking over the world or becoming a major monolithic entity, would further disintegrate & fragment into separate groups.”

    XEra, everything you wrote in your comment was true. However you are missing a key component.

    The seat of Islam is in Saudi Arabia. One of the 5 pillars of Islam is Hajj to Mecca. Now, Mecca is located in one of the most backward, in-egalitarian, non-progressive areas of the world that anyone could imagine. So Muslims from all over the world, including “normal”, “moderate” and “progressive” ones are going to this place and getting influenced by its Wahhabism.

    The Wahhabist ideology and culture is being exported all over the world as Imams who are trained in Saudi funded Islamic schools are spreading out across our planet to infiltrate mosques and Muslim communities with this filth.

    Here’s what I’ve seen all over South Asia, the UK and Europe: Muslims who are ordinary people following their religion in a balanced way within the context of their own indigenous cultures are slowly being “Arabicized”.

    They will give up the clothing of their indigenous cultures, which are modest enough, to don Saudi-gear (Darth Vadar niqabs, covering even the the face!), they will reject customs and traditions of their own indigenous cultures that they previously took part in because its not “Muslim enough” (i.e. Saudi enough). I’m talking educated, professional Muslims who are living and working throughout the world but who are immigrants from diverse regions, or the 2nd generation children of immigrants.

    This phenomena is HUGE in the UK amongst Indo-Pak-Bangladeshi Muslims. What – the sari or salwar kameez is not modest enough? You have to dress like a Saudi in order to be a Muslim now? How about just wearing modest British clothing like a long skirt and long sleeved shirt? Nope! Not “muslim enough” (i.e. Saudi/Wahhabist).

    This Arabization has already entrenched itself into one of the most beautiful and culturally rich areas on the planet – Southeast Asia. I was shocked by how much of their indigenous culture is left.

    This is a virus. A cancer that spreads until it takes over the entire body.

    It is fully underway in UK, Holland, France and a few other small European countries. However I have no fear it will spread throughout the Americas, for various geographical, political and cultural reasons. The problem with with liberal European countries is that they are just too damn nice and give too much of a benefit of doubt to people they perceive as being poor, underpriveleged or maligned. And oh boy do Muslims know how to exploit those sentiments!

    I’m hoping these countries will wake up and put a cap on immigration.

    • Dota
      November 26, 2011 at 1:50 PM

      “”This phenomena is HUGE in the UK amongst Indo-Pak-Bangladeshi Muslims. What – the sari or salwar kameez is not modest enough? You have to dress like a Saudi in order to be a Muslim now? How about just wearing modest British clothing like a long skirt and long sleeved shirt? Nope! Not “muslim enough” (i.e. Saudi/Wahhabist). “”"

      Very true and extremely sad. Pakistanis are the worst offenders here since they have no identity. They have rather foolishly divorced themselves from their Indian heritage and have the most unbalanced collective personality. I discussed these issues with a former Pakistani roommate and he was so offended that he didn’t speak with me for 6 months. True story.

    • Xera
      November 26, 2011 at 7:50 PM

      Now Now, don’t dismiss the primitiveness of those indigenous “cultures” too, Hinduism is just as backwards and far more primitive then Islam in many ways. The effect that religion has had, has destroyed that entire region by giving the rationale and reason to act like the most primitive versions of human beings to exist and has made a beautiful race, ugly & hideous. Without Hinduism and it’s rotting bulshit, cow drinking urine logic, that place would have never had any problems. Without Hinduism, Pakistan, India, Bangladesh would not be rotting shitholes of death & decay. The brand of Islam practiced in that region, as pointed out before, is Hinduized; and you & I both know that Hindusim completely disregards rational thinking and engagement of issues and instead puts in place a state of complete selfishness, dirtiness, ignorance, perennial state of poverty, conceitedness, self-loathing, which again, you and I both know that the caste system plays right exactly up to that and are characteristics of a Hindu way of life. This is why I believe the sub-continental Muslims are the most backwards and the most poor of Islamic world, because of the phantom Hindu legacy that was in place when the Turks & Iranians displaced them & their shit religion. If the cultures of those regions had instead been born with something like a Lutheran Christian religion with it’s openness and critical thinking of issues getting in place there, without any hint of Hindusim or horrid stench of Hindu influence, boy oh boy would we be living a different world. That entire continent would have become an Industrial powerhouse million times stronger then Japan (vastly overrated, small, insignificant and copycats) or any other Asiatic civilization on a scale to rival the Ottomans or any of the major European armies at its peak. Maybe that might have an happened in an alternate universe somewhere but again lets not downplay the role Hinduism played in turning everything ugly.

      I actually disagree with some of the past sentiments being described here, India (Bangladesh & Pakistan including) was anything but a shithole during Alexanders era & before, and the days of the Roman empire. It was one of the richest and most developed countries in the world at the time, imagine Japan before it’s depression except far more richer, significant and larger. It’s Medievel fabrics & textiles were far superior to anything produced in the medieval world and unmatched by any civilization, not even China. They also invented martial arts, (Kung fu, Judo, Jiu-Jitsu) of which the East Asians later took credit for. I am not like an Indian nationalist or anything of that sort but credit has to be given where credit is due:

      Manouchi, Venetian physician seventeenth century
      “Bengal is of all the kingdoms of the Moghul, best known in France….. We may venture to say it is not inferior in anything to Egypt – and that it even exceeds that kingdom in its products of silks, cottons, sugar, and indigo. All things are in great plenty here, fruits, pulse, grain, muslins, cloths of gold and silk…”

      Francois Bernier:
      “The knowledge I have acquired of Bengal in two visits inclines me to believe that it is richer than Egypt. It exports in and abundance cottons silks, rice, sugar and butter. It produces amply for it’s own consumption of wheat, vegetables, grains, fowls, ducks and geese. It has immense herds of pigs and flocks of sheep and goats. Fish of every kind it has in profusion. From Rajmahal to the sea is an endless number of canals, cut in bygone ages from the Ganges by immense labour for navigation and irrigation.”

      Jean BaptiseTavernier:
      ” ….even in the smallest villages rice, flour, butter, milk, beans and other vegetables, sugar and sweetmeats can be procured in abundance ….”

      Robert clive:
      1757 Clive of the East India Company had observed of Murshidabad in Bengal:

      “This city is as extensive, populous and rich as the city of London…”

      The Viceroy of British India in 1894:
      “India is the pivot of our Empire …. If the Empire loses any other part of its Dominion we can survive, but if we lose India the sun of our Empire will have set.”

      Also, the guy that Alexander fought in India had an entourage of Amazonian women, like Gaddafi so there probably was a different culture.

      That’s my two cents for now.

      -.

  167. Asian Philosopher Om Tat Sat
    November 26, 2011 at 4:00 PM

    Dota, you say Christianity is largely responsible for the rise and success of the Western world. This may be true to an extent. Here’s a verse from the Bible that I agree with:

    “And a man shall leave his parents and cleave to his wife and the two shall become one.”

  168. Gay State Girl
    November 26, 2011 at 4:15 PM

    I believe that women were also allowed to become nuns in order to escape arranged marriages.

  169. johnUK
    November 26, 2011 at 5:24 PM

    Ladies and Gentlemen the honorable Presidential candidate Pastor Terry Jones addresses “A Call to Decision” conference held in West Virginia.

    “Presidential candidate Terry Jones speaks at a conference at “A Call to Decision” in West Virginia”

    Remember to support Pastor Jones Presidential campaign by buying an “Islam is of the Devil” book, baseball hats, t-shirts and mugs this Christmas as a gift for friends and loved ones.

    http://www.doveworld.org/store

    • Gay State Girl
      November 26, 2011 at 6:08 PM

      False Messiah. Exploiter.

      • johnUK
        November 26, 2011 at 6:52 PM

        What you talk’ in about?

        Pastor Jones is the only viable Presidential candidate running for 2012 worth a damn and a holy man to boot.

        What other candidate has a better interfaith dialogue and bridging the divide amongst communities in America, restoring America’s sovereignty, tackling US economic problems and foreign and domestic policies?

        Sounds like the kind of person Robert would vote for.

  170. Asian Philosopher Om Tat Sat
    November 26, 2011 at 6:05 PM

    American politicians are a joke. Its 2011 and religion is mixed with politics in the US? Are you f*cking kidding me?

  171. Gay State Girl
    November 26, 2011 at 7:06 PM

    John
    Let me ask. Do you attend church weekly and observe all the laws?

    • johnUK
      November 26, 2011 at 9:18 PM

      @Gay State Girl

      No I haven’t been to church since Sunday school as a kid which protestant and catholic Christianity in the western world is worthless.

      Other than Orthodox Christianity I think protestant and catholic branches of Christianity are part of the NWO just like Islam and Judaism but unlike Islam it is not a mind control weapon to destroy nations and enslave people that is primarily a military/political theology wrapped in junk religious dogma.

      Did you watch Pastor Jones presentation? It is actually a pretty good speech.

  172. Gay State Girl
    November 26, 2011 at 7:08 PM

    My wet dream is about to come true!

  173. Asian Philosopher Om Tat Sat
    November 26, 2011 at 7:10 PM

    Which “communities” is he “bridging a divide” for? What is the nature of his “interfaith dialogue”? Which faiths? What kind of dialogue has he had with them? American politicians are a joke, especially the ones who mix religion with politics. Out of all of them Ron Paul makes the most sense.

    • johnUK
      November 26, 2011 at 9:50 PM

      All of them of different ethnicity and religions.

      “What is the nature of his “interfaith dialogue”? Which faiths? What kind of dialogue has he had with them?”

      Chck out his address and fellow speakers at the annual Arab festival in Dearborn, Michigan.

  174. Gay State Girl
    November 26, 2011 at 7:14 PM

    Ron Paul is a fundie christian turd on social issues.

  175. Asian Philosopher Om Tat Sat
    November 26, 2011 at 7:57 PM

    GSG, I’m not into politics. Those who run things will run things regardless who we vote for. $$$$$$
    I know he’s for legalizing drugs, releasing all those who have been jailed on drug charges from jail, and pulling our troops out of Afghanistan and Iraq and scaling back the American Military Industrial Complex as well as other governmental excesses.

    Here’s “Confessions of an Ex Jew turned Orthodox Christian Priest”

    Shame on you for using the word “shiksa”

  176. Asian Philosopher Om Tat Sat
    November 26, 2011 at 8:16 PM

    @XEra, “I actually disagree with some of the past sentiments being described here, India (Bangladesh & Pakistan including) was anything but a shithole during Alexanders era & before, and the days of the Roman empire. It was one of the richest and most developed countries in the world at the time, imagine Japan before it’s depression except far more richer, significant and larger. It’s Medievel fabrics & textiles were far superior to anything produced in the medieval world and unmatched by any civilization, not even China. They also invented martial arts, (Kung fu, Judo, Jiu-Jitsu) of which the East Asians later took credit for. I am not like an Indian nationalist or anything of that sort but credit has to be given where credit is due”

    Now, now, now little deary, this was a HINDU CIVILIZATION.

    Sure Hinduism has problems. Never said it didn’t. But as far as philosophy, metaphysics and other civilizational attributes like literature, music, dance, etc – it cannot be beat.

    Those are the aspects of Hinduism that need to be retained, revisited and restored. Not the backwards stuff like caste discrimination and LIVING WITH IN LAWS.

  177. Gay State Girl
    November 26, 2011 at 8:48 PM

    Sorry about the shiksa stuff. Few jews use the term with its original meaning in mind. Some even use it endearingly. My resentment stems not from the women themselves, but the way in which Jewish men use them to degrade Jewish women.

  178. Gay State Girl
    November 26, 2011 at 9:04 PM

    I say a lot of things on here that could be perceived as racist, but I balance myself out by owning up to things that few Jews will acknowledge.