…As they are not much better at any rate.
Pakistanis are nothing but Indian Hindus with an overlay of Islam, so Pakistan is hardly any better than India.
1/3 of Pakistanis shit outdoors, whereas 55% of Indians do. Pakistanis gather cow pies and dry them for fuel, the same as Indians do. They also cover their houses with cow pies like Indians. The country is about as sickeningly corrupt as India, or possibly even worse. The upper class are callous, cruel and evil in a way that’s not typical of a Muslim state. The lower classes have a slave mentality. Both of these class mindsets were imported from India.
Pakistan is unbelievably filthy country, though perhaps not quite as filthy as India. An un-Islamic feudal system continues in Pakistan’s countryside, the same as India’s feudal rural culture. Pakistanis even have non-Islamic (or even anti-Islamic) caste. Caste is abhorrent in any culture, but it’s particularly outrageous in an Islamic one.
The Pakistani rich pay almost no taxes at all, similar to the Indian rich. As a consequence, as in India, the state is starved and nearly nonexistent except for an oppressive security apparatus. In the rural areas, the rich and upper castes abuse the lower castes with impunity, raping them, beating them, stealing from them, on and on, all with the help of the local security forces which are allied with the upper classes.
India’s education system is grotesquely underfunded. Many schools are just shells, never even partly used because the teachers collect their pay but then never show up for work.
Pakistan is possibly worse. The state has no money because the rich pay no taxes, so there is no money to build schools. Because there are no schools for the masses, the mullahs set up madrassas where boys alone are ill-educated and come out knowing little more than how to recite the Koran. At worst, these madrassas are virtually Terrorist Academies that churn out fundamentalist crazies by the busload with each new graduating class.
Pakistan’s electrical system is as bad as India’s if not worse with continuous blackouts, power failures and load shedding.
Pakistan is really just a Muslim version of Hindu India, minus everything good about Islam and plus everything bad about Hinduism. At its worst, it’s like Hindu India plus fundamentalist Islam, which is possibly the worst combination on Earth.
Pakistanis have nothing to crow about as Pakistan’s as bad as India. Indian Pakistan-bashing doesn’t make a lot of sense since one is just a version of the other, however, Indian concerns about fundamentalist violence in Pakistan are well-placed since there is much less sheer terrorist violence in India. It’s interesting that two nations so much alike would hate each other so much, but that’s often the way it goes with humans.
Alpha Unit
jacobbauthumley
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Good post. Pakistanis aren’t big on charity either. The government deducts the 2.5% obligatory zakat (charity) from bank accounts every year after the Eid festival. This seemed like a good idea initially, however nowadays people merely withdraw all their money prior to Ramadan, and then re-deposit it after charity time is over. Same culture, same values. Like India, religiosity in Pakistan does not translate into ethics.
Yes, it took me so long to figure this out, but it’s so true. You really have to look hard to see it. You have to understand India well, and then you need to figure out Pakistan too.
so whose side do you take on the Kashmir issue? (if you’ve already posted on same please direct accordingly.)
Some of your descriptions mirror Sikhism in particular, as it is said to be
somewhat of a Hindu-Islamic mix.
However you must give Pakistan berth for all the problems American intervention has created and exacerbated recently.
intervention has created a and exacerbated.
Sikkhism actually takes the best of both Islam and Hinduism.
I support the Kashmiris right to self-determination.
I won’t be as quick to leave Islam in the clear, even if we overlook the fundamentalist aspect. Islam was born out the the Arab tribal psyche, which was as much an idol worshipping cult as Hinduism was.
One of the reasons why Islam found much more acceptance in South Asia than Christianity was because Islam carried over its own system of class hierarchy (Shiek, Mamluks, Nau-Muslims, etc.) to replace the Hindu caste system. It replaced arcane and mindless Hindu rituals with its own (facing the west for prayers, Hajj pilgrimages, etc.). Traditional Islam calls for the same kind of mindless acceptance and obedience to its traditions as Hinduism does. Both Hinduism and Islam are traditionally misogynistic, anti-Nihilist and believe in absolute, unchanging ‘truths’.
You are right, Pakistanis combined the worst of Islam with the worst of Hinduism. But it is not just the ‘terrorist’ aspect.
Agreed. There are certain aspects of Islam that are simply horrendous and jive quite well with the Hindu mindset. One of these shared aspects is the notion of the absolute truth of scripture. Muslims and Hindus never question their scriptures and are not allowed to do so. This is why Islamic ethics (although more developed than Hindu ethics) are light years behind Western ethics, which are based on the Christian interpretation of the Bible. Pakistanis tend to revere the early figures of Islam without even understanding or knowing anything about them. Pakis will laud the military prowess of Khalid bin Waleed, but ask them about any of his famous battles or the tactics he used, and you get a blank stare. Both cultures worship physical forms and not ideas as Aakar Patel points out. Most Pakis do not even know the thesis of Muhammad Iqbal’s PHD. They are trained to revere simply for its own sake. Idol worship.
What? Most Americans do not even know the thesis of ANYONE’S PHD.
What? Most Americans do not even know the thesis of ANYONE’S PHD.
Yeah, but we’re talking about the supposed founder of the country, not just anybody.
“Muslims and Hindus never question their scriptures and are not allowed to do so. This is why Islamic ethics (although more developed than Hindu ethics) are light years behind Western ethics, which are based on the Christian interpretation of the Bible.”
There you go again with your religious bigotry. I’m not finished with you yet on your “Hindu Ethics” post either.
There is no bigotry. While Islam’s ethics are more developed than Hindu ethics I feel that there is a ceiling beyond which Islam will not progress. This is because Islam puts the believer’s mind in a box where the individual cannot think and reason beyond the doctrines/maxims/anecdotes of the Quran. The bible serves as a guide and hence it allows for more flexibility.
The Development of Metaphysics in Persia.
Now ask your average Paki what the word Metaphysics means for fun.
Similarly Faiz Ahmed Faiz is revered but virtually nobody knows that he received the Lenin peace prize and was a hardcore communist.
But of course The Absolute IS unchanging Truth. Shankara-Plato-
Sanatana Dharma, Religio Perennis.
you think anti-nihilist is bad?|
Pakistanis criticising India (from a Nationalist bias) is like the Catholic Church admonishing Penn State University leadership for pedo coverups.
Now, if Pakistanis criticise both Pakistan and India for the shared shitty culture , then they got a point , but if Pakistanis act like they are better , then they are full of shit.
It’s not just pakistan ,just look at every nation surrounding india, i mean all of them are failed states , this shows the reality of that nation
Its like a cancer which doesnt keep to itself and wishes to spread across the world
China is moving forward because they have defeated these parasitic indians and never accepted their parasitic culture into their national charecter
Now all those nations who accepted indian way of living are going through worse things.
I have a strong belief that most degenerate humans are born in India
and they have spread across the world carrying their filth everywhere they go
China moving forward had nothing to do with India, that’s just a silly way out there comment.
What country (Countrys of any stature past or present) has accepted Indians/Pakis into their national character? . SubCons are pretty late emigrants to the West unlike the Chinese. SubCons are a tiny tiny % of the population of Canada, UK and the US. None of these countries are suffering or succeding because of SubCons.
As much of a nuisance as some segments of Pakistani Brit diaspora have made of themselves in England, they don’t have a meaningfull impact on British life.
What the hell are you talking about? Indians are completely and utterly destroying the IT industry, the computer science fields, and shitting on many things made by other ethnic groups; all due to their slumdoggery and backwards cultures. Here is a list of companies ruined by Indians, honestly this has been posted here hundreds of times:
Adaptec – Indian CEO Subramanian Sundaresh fired.
AIG (signed outsourcing deal in 2007 in Europe with Accenture Indian frauds, collapsed in 2009)
AirBus (Qantas plane plunged 650 feet injuring passengers when its computer system written by India disengaged the auto-pilot).
Apple – R&D CLOSED in India in 2006.
Australia’s National Australia Bank (Outsourced jobs to India in 2007, nationwide ATM and account failure in late 2010).
Bell Labs (Arun Netravalli took over, closed, turned into a shopping mall)
Boeing Dreamliner ES software (written by HCL, banned by FAA)
Bristol-Myers-Squibb (Trade Secrets and documents stolen in U.S. by Indian national guest worker)
Caymas – Startup run by Indian CEO, French director of dev, Chinese tech lead. Closed after 5 years of sucking VC out of America.
Caterpillar misses earnings a mere 4 months after outsourcing to India, Inc.
Circuit City – Outsourced all IT to Indian-run IBM and went bankrupt shortly thereafter.
ComAir crew system run by 100% Indian IT workers caused the 12/25/05 U.S. airport shutdown when they used a short int instead of a long int
Deloitte – 2010 – this Indian-packed consulting company is being sued under RICO fraud charges by Marin Country, California for a failed solution.
Dell – call center (closed in India)
Delta call centers (closed in India)
Fannie Mae – Hired large numbers of Indians, had to be bailed out. Indian logic bomb creator found guilty.
GM – Was booming in 2006, signed $300 million outsourcing deal with Wipro that same year, went bankrupt 3 years later
HSBC ATMs (software taken over by Indians, failed in 2006)
Intel Whitefield processor project (cancelled, Indian staff canned)
Lehman (Spectramind software bought by Wipro, ruined, trashed by Indian programmers)
Medicare – Defrauded by Indian national doctor Arun Sharma & wife in the U.S.
Microsoft – Employs over 35,000 H-1Bs. Stock used to be $100. Today it’s lucky to be over $25. Not to mention that Vista thing.
MIT Media Lab Asia (canceled)
PeopleSoft (Taken over by Indians in 2000, collapsed).
PepsiCo – Slides from #1 to #3 during Indian CEO Indra Nooyi’ watch.
Polycom – Former senior executive Sunil Bhalla charged with insider trading.
Qantas – See AirBus above
Quark (Alukah Kamar CEO, fired, lost 60% of its customers to Adobe because Indian-written QuarkExpress 6 was a failure)
Rolls Royce (Sent aircraft engine work to India in 2006, engines delayed for Boeing 787, and failed on at least 2 Quantas planes in 2010, cost Rolls $500m).
SAP – Same as Deloitte above in 2010.
Skype (Madhu Yarlagadda fired)
State of Indiana $867 million FAILED IBM project, IBM being sued
State of Texas failed IBM project.
Sun Micro (Taken over by Indian and Chinese workers in 2001, collapsed, had to be sold off to Oracle).
UK’s NHS outsourced numerous jobs including health records to India in mid-2000 resulting in $26 billion over budget.
Union Bank of California – Cancelled Finacle project run by India’s InfoSys in 2011.
United – call center (closed in India)
Victorian Order of Nurses, Canada (Payroll system screwed up by SAP/IBM in mid-2011)
Virgin Atlantic (software written in India caused cloud IT failure)
World Bank (Indian fraudsters BANNED for 3 years because they stole data).
How many Western companies, patents, intellectual property, copyrights have the Chinese and E Asians ruined by their copying and or complete lack of respect for intellectual property.
You made a list of Indian doing criminal thing and or cheating employers, you know there are lists like this for many other ethnic groups too. You act like this is unique to Indians.
Your comment about Indians destroying IT and computer fields is absurd because those fields are still around and doing just fine. Bill gates does his best to influence the gov. to let in as many Indian computer specialists as possible.
Xera,
Your double digit IQ is exposed here. I am impressed that Indians could crack the glass ceiling.You forgot to add infamous ex McKinsey head Mr. Rajat Gupta, I can produce 1000 success stories instead of this small list.. I don’t get what this list has to do with the main topic of this blog.
its some what true but what you don’t see is why?
Middle class Pakistanis I talked to in the past and news articles I have read, have stated how Pakistan is a Feudal Society, where a small handfull of families control everything and hold the reigns of power since inception.
It absolutely is a feudal society, like India’s. The rural areas are particularly feudal in an almost literal sense. Pakistan is ripe for revolution, but Islam prevents this by saying the Left are atheists. And the Pakistani Left has a hard time dealing with the religion question. Benazir Bhutto was actually a social democrat and her party is a member of the Socialist International, but she was just another corrupt Pakistani pol to tell the truth.
If Pakistan grew bananas, it would be just another Banana Republic.
They do grow tasty pomergranates, for that reason alone the US should simply take control of Pakistan.
“Pakistanis combined the worst of Islam with the worst of Hinduism.” Why blame Islam or Hinduism for the mess they are in today. Pakistan was doing reasonably well until 70′s. The present geographical area called Pakistan has nothing to do with the real Pakistan. The heart of the Pakistan movement was in Delhi, United province and Bengal region of British India. The present geographical Pakistanis had only very limited say in the formation of Pakistan and in fact they were not that enthusiastic about the new country. The elite Urdu Muslim migrants from India founded that country. The vast majority of Muslims who lived in West Punjab and Sindh of 1947 Pakistan were common peasants and tribal people lived in the other two provinces. The autonomous Pashtun and Balochi tribals belonged to Iranian language/ cultural group. They were not part of Indian sphere of influence at the time of partition. The only thing that glued together the new country is their religion. In 70′s Pakistan social studies text books started preaching hatred toward Indians (Google
akistani textbooks controversy). They started to Arabize their society at an unnatural pace. Now Pakistan is 12 points away from the most failed nation. India did a few things right at the time of independence. They were
(a) Secular constitution.
(b) Abolished feudalism and redistributed lands. (Pakistan never did this)
(c) Introduced job and education reservation for backward castes.
(d) Technically abolished caste system. Now backward castes form the ruling class as they are numerically superior.
(e) Theoretically the rulers change every 5 years. At least there is a crude mechanism in place.
(f) Invested heavily in Aerospace, Nuclear and post graduate education. This is mean reason why Indians are some threat to American white collar jobs.
(g) Experimented with Soviet Socialism ( I am not sure if this was something positive because the moment India abolished Socialism the economic growth rate started shooting up from 3.5 percent to 9 percent. )
As this blog has abundant information about the things Indians didn’t do well, I am not going to repeat it. The so called India Pakistan rivalry is a form of extreme sibling rivalry. India maintain very good relationship with 56/57 OIC Islamic countries as Indians are well used to Islamic culture.
the only reason pakistan did well till 80s is because of colonialism. till 1971 they literally occupired bangladesh reaping its economic output leaving very less for the bangladeshis. thus they seemd to do well but in reality it is the excess from east pakistan. i believe the moentum must have kept going for another 10 years till 80s. after which its been a steady downhill drive for Pakistan’
Well, there is this argument for the analyst. “Home grown”. What does that mean ? The citizens may not be from pakistan. But getting training, motivation, arming and indoctrine also comes from the home country ? Even if the terrorists are from different country, who is responsible to use that human resource to terrorist activities ? Within that country ? Hell lot of that thing are going on in pak only. And everyone knows that. From indonesia to Russian land (not baring the west too), every one got trained in pak one way or the other. And i dont think this technical term “Home grown” really makes any sense in a globalised terror network. So my suggestion to media is that, do not stress that more to put a blame on a particular country, it does not solve or press enough the countries that purpertate. Social dissent, class imbalance and rich-poor divide exists everywhere. And if it involves religion, that becomes complicated, but yet, they would only result in riots and clashes, as it happened before in india, and few deaths. But not terrorists threats, And i think if pakistan do not take firm steps, i think the rest of the world will be fooled again into believing that they are actually taking steps.
I’ll have to agree with the gun violence part, Pakistan suffers much more from domestic gun violence and terrorism than India. Probably cause of gun availability and the SAME goes for America due to the stupid second amendment laws. I’d say India suffers less form gun violence than America. What you wrote about Pakistan is true, but again, I’ll make note of not **much better** regardless still better. I would not trade what Pakistan has achieved for India. Both India and Pakistan’s problem is overpopulation, though it seems India is more screwed, Pakistan still may have a chance as it’s still much less densely populated and has a lower rate of hungry people.
India on the other hand is the poorest country on Earth. People like to think Pakistan and India are at war due to India being the “secular, tolerant” state and Pakistan the rough, intolerant Islamic expansionist state simply need to look at the India’s rivalry with China.
Robert,
Sikhs are just as bad as Hindus because they secretly follow the caste system in the Punjab. We consider them not much more than glorified militant HINDUS in our community. Believe it or not but there Sikh Jats and then Sikh Ravidassia Dalits even in Punjab. landowning Jats treat Chamar Dalits with utter contempt, refusing to consider them *real* Sikhs while they force them to work as slaves, and continue to shit on them in the exact same way that Indo-Gangetic Brahmins continue to literally shit, piss and wallow in the river Ganges to this very day! These Jats who consider themselves superior to the other castes bring their precious caste system to the west, which has resulted in gang rivalries and scores of murders among both Jats and Dalits as the Jats compete to assert their inherent superiority, but of course, if you ask Sikhs, they will play dumb and deny this goes on in their community.
The Sikh religion originated as a backlash to forced conversions by foreign Muslim intruders in South Asia. All the Gurus were originally Hindu Khatris who encouraged their followers to take up arms (khalsa) and one of them led the resistance movement to free the Kashmiri Pandits from getting forcibly converted to Islam.
This is why right-wing VHP Hindu nuts continue to treat Sikhs as their own Hindu brothers, even though Sikhs in reality despise the Hindu filth and want their own Khalistan.
Thank you very much for this.
I kind of cannot agree with the justification of comparison between India and Pakistan on the following two basis in the current scenario:
First : the basic seed of concept of nations in their “initial primary” political spheres are different. Pakistan is a nation of various states (provinces), whereas India is not a nation of various states rather a “state of various nations” knitted together as one republic. There is a separate portfolio of a state ministry which sits at the center. It is for the state of India. The fabrication is such that various states have been allowed freedom of language to be used in their political and educational spheres in their respective regions unlike in Pakistan. Even though there are many definitions of the subcontinent but India has maintained its visual imagery as a subcontinent as well. Whereas in Pakistan every different ethnicity has been brought under one urdu umbrella weather people like it or not. Hence the functioning of center and state are bit different on certain sense. Each state is treated as a different nation under one republic of India in their political functioning.
Second: both are 3rd world democracies 3rd world automatically indicates poverty, lack of education, etc etc. but India has heavy burden on its shoulder of having ¼ of globe’s population on only 1/16th of worlds land UNLIKE Pakistan. Hence density ratio itself states that comparison is invalid. Moreover in my previous point there is a big difference in socio political sphere as well which in a way nurtures respective forthcoming generations.
Hence keeping the nature of republic of India in view the government of India planned the “University grant commission” for university level and “NCERT” for pre university levels were formed to keep a linear form of education for all the nation states of India to keep the human resources in one thread. Pakistan education system is not linear, because it is a nation of provinces. India did develop nationwide recognized institutes like IITs, etc. in various fields to create and develop human resources in the country.
So major drawback in Pakistani education system is confusion of its concept hence using superlative degree of comparison for constructing their idea of a nation. However if they do not islamisize the subject of urdu, English besides a compulsory Islamic education with superlative degrees and continuous Hindu bashing in their text books they will end up desensitizing the worldly sense of being part of a modern literate world for their forthcoming generations. Because the sort of social science they are developing among the school kids is not fit for the current era of globalization whereby the potencial economies need to merge together and most of the things seems to be interconnected globaly. NCERT and other regional education board in India have a compulsory subject of moral science in their curriculum in which they teach the basic elements of all the exsisting religion in india just to make a child aware of his or her current sociology, and religion is not taught upon more than that in the official indian education curriculum of schools. Because according to the constitution a citizen of india is free to choose any religion they want to and such basic fundamental rights among others are taught to the children at the middle level, unlike Pakistan.
Hence If we talk about communal riots etc in india, if it happens in one region it can never ever take a shape of communal soufflé in the whole country since india is operated as a state of nations plus the ultra density of the population, thanks to its demographic and socio political structure. Its totally different in Pakistan, it’s a concept of nation of various provinces only lineared on the basis of a non native national language without any linear form of education.
Now another point of disagreement is that both are 3rd world. And the way sluggishly and slowly the implications of policies happen, I think everybody knows how much such nations sufferes from barriers of red tapism, bureaucracy and corruption. But atleast the seed sown in india by its initial leaders like lal bahadur shastri (self sufficiency revolutions) and mrs. Indira Gandhi (education system) helped india to see what was its foundation stone, unlike Pakistan who out of the confusion is distorting its very own human resources with religious superlative module. Any Pakistani would be surprised to read about its own more than 6000 year of heritage they themselves don’t know and world knows it.
And as for the case of religions to be very frank with you the biggest difference in the islam and Hinduism is in their initiations. Islam came as a doctrine and Hinduism being much much older than islam (to which they don’t agree for some odd reasons) has evolved with time. And most of the antique civilizations and societies evolve with a glorified concept but slowly and slowly it becomes dogmatized as time changes and so the dose societies and then the dogmatism enters society and hence a social sturcture starts developing and so do the different school of thoughts emerge thanks to the questioning ability of the human brains (could be negative, positive and argumentative). None of the Abrahamic religions and none of the dharmic religions could be prevented from this inevitable social cycle. Hence the shit happens.
I agree with you Robert : Sikhism is a perfect example of it . it is the one of the post Islamic heritage of both india and pakistan based more of sufi and bhakti school of thought about one ness of muslims and hindus. Hence its hindu muslim mix and Sikhs have Islamic and hindu heritage both. The foundation stone of the most reverved sites of golden temple what kept by a muslim sufi miyan mir and both muslim and hindu saints of the bhakti and sufi era have been compiled in the guru granth sahib ji WITHOUT PLAGERISM just to indicate the common voice of one ness of humanity.
It initiated as “fed up” by product of dogmatism in the existing society., but unfortunately even this young religion (hence a documented history and no mythology) could not remain anti dogmatic in the current times. Same thing happened to it as well just like it happened to others. I completely agree with MOON on this thing that jatts not only mistreat the mazhabi Sikhs (the dalit Sikhs) but they belittle the other castes including the khatri caste (which was the caste of the entire linage of the sikh gurus !!!!) and castesystem is not supposed to be adhered in Sikhism and Sikhism is the only religion in the world which dose not have officially have a priest class as any proper khalsa sikh can conduct a marriage, naming etc ceremonies if u see in todays gurudwars a new class of politically sponsored priest etc are emerging ….hence the gender equality concept is also diminishing as men are taking the forefront of ceremonies in gurudwaras. Anywyas be it any religion. No matter what people do or don’t do the core concept of the all the religions remain the same .
But sociologically speaking the biggest pollution in today’s world is the pollution of human mind. Atleast govt of Pakistan must reformulate its education policy in to not to officially produce a generation with mind full of prejudices and biasness , which is ACTUALLY very dangerous for the forthcoming generations to cope up with global scenarios of globalizations and science and technology and more humanity check universal bodies and organizations??? Let the bashing be done on media for their TRP ratings and not be inculcated in their curriculums. The mind to tomorrow’s youth should be free of prejudices and should have ability of logic of comparative analyses before creating any hypothesis.