George writes:
It’s 20,000 BC. You’re living in a small foraging society and need to secure a wife that will give you as many offspring as possible and ensure your genes will pass down the generations.
So what age of bride do you go for?
It’s simple. The best bride material will be girls approaching their first pregnancy since they would have all of their breeding years ahead of them and the time you’d have to wait before she’d start giving you any offspring would be at a minimum.
So what was the typical age of a girls first pregnancy in prehistoric times?
Using modern day foraging societies as a guide, it was probably about 17. This means that girls in the 12 to 16 bracket would have generally made the best bride material.
Now go take at look at what porn groups get the most traffic: Jailbait, schoolgirls, Lolitas…
Girls between about 12 and 16, in other words…
I have checked out some of the Reddit groups like Jailbait and whatever and I also checked out the Jailbait site where you get to vote on how old they are and read the comments below. On both sites, the girls are clothed, so there’s no violation of “child porn” laws.
On the Reddit site, I kept thinking, “Why would anyone want to look at this stuff anyway?” On the Jailbait site, it was interesting because you get to vote on their ages, but I also thought, “What’s the big fascination with this site anyway? Why are these girls so special? Who cares about them?” I didn’t always feel this way, so I guess I must be getting old.
There are probably evolutionary reasons for this. Gary is right. On the other hand, as we age, most men grow out of our attraction to teenage girls, even though it is quite normal.
At my age, a 12 year old girl just looks way too young. Is she attractive? Maybe a little bit. But also very underdeveloped and way, way, way too young.
13? Most 13 year old girls also look way too young, and most of them don’t even look that great – way too young and underdeveloped. It’s true that some look excellent, but even with those, you think, “Way too young.”
14 year old girls look a lot better, but even they are rather flat in their bodies, and they also look very young. These are the ones that you try pretty hard not to look at. I find myself looking at them sometimes and remembering back to when I was that age, and some of the 14 year old girls I used to hang around with, be friends with, and even date and sleep with.
When I look at them, I am often just reminiscing about the old days. But you have to be very careful about looking at girls of that age, because at my age, people will see you doing that and get mad at you.
Now 15 year old girls are excellent, it is true. In many primitive societies even today, a 15 year old girl can marry a man of any age. That’s right and proper of course, but a 15 year old girl is awfully immature. Nevertheless, they can be a lot of fun if you are young, and to a young man, they can seem pretty mature.
There were some 15 year old girls around here who looked pretty great. By then, their bodies are getting pretty developed. On the other hand, their bodies are still not totally mature, and their minds often seem extremely silly, girly and immature.
16 year old girls are the cream of the crop, because at this age, their bodies are often fully mature. I don’t know any girls that age around here, so I am not sure what to think of them at my age.
But one came to visit some relatives a while back, a friend of my niece, and she looked fantastic! She also had an interesting mind. Of course 16 year old girls can be a blast for young men because they look great and are often quite mature. I suspect at my age though, I might find them silly and immature. After all, at my age, I even find college girls silly and immature!
All in all, what Gary said is true, but this sort of thing tends to weaken as one ages. It almost seems that with each passing year, the girls look younger and younger and less and less desirable in that way. In Western society, we men are not just prey to our genes but also to our societies.
Our minds are molded by society, its rules and its laws. Teenage girl means “illegal.” In some way, that effects their desirability. You are at least less likely to look at them due to legal and societal factors. Even if they look good, you think, “way too young.” The idea that they are too young is probably an idea implanted in you by society, but nevertheless, society and laws shape your brain the same way your genes do. Humans are more than instinct-driven animals.
Alpha Unit
jacobbauthumley
Robert
I didn’t know there were evolutionary reasons for desiring fresh punani. Think about it, would you like your fruits or vegetables fresh or stale? A 35 year old vagina is wrinkled and loose compared to a 19 year old one. Plus theres a lot more fat around the vaginal area in older women which is a huge turn off. So yeah go fresh!
I haven’t read this post yet. I just read the excerpt from George and want to comment on that. If 17 years was the age of first pregnancy, why go for a 12-16 year old? Why not find a 17 or 18 year old and get started straight away? Also, girls now are at the age of first pregnancy earlier. They are already there from 12-16. So by his logic, we should go for girls who are like 10-14 or maybe 8-12. Grown men generally prefer females older than that, more like 16-35 or 18-30.
Show us some data to prove teen porn is most popular! Back up your claims. I have not focused on teen porn most of the time I have watched porn. And even if a lot of porn is teen porn, aren’t there a lot of teen boys watching it? Which demographic is watching what?
Anyway, it is not necessarily the best bet to go for a girl who is very young or hasn’t had any babies yet. If you go for a female who is a little older, for one thing she has survived longer, which tells you she has good genes. She will also be more mature and maybe experienced and better able to raise children well. Picking a not too young woman could be a good strategy too.
“If 17 years was the age of first pregnancy, why go for a 12-16 year old? Why not find a 17 or 18 year old and get started straight away?”
To be confident of paternity. If you go for a 17 year old she could already be carrying another man’s baby since that was the typical age of first conception. It would be better to go for a girl under that age to be confident of her nulliparity, but not so young, like 5, that you’d have to wait years to start getting offspring.
“Also, girls now are at the age of first pregnancy earlier. They are already there from 12-16. So by his logic, we should go for girls who are like 10-14 or maybe 8-12.”
This may be true nowadays, but you have to bear in mind that our sexual preferences evolved thousands of years ago when girls would typically get pregnant at about 17.
“Show us some data to prove teen porn is most popular!”
On nearly all porn sites the most popular age category is the teens. On a certain porn site that allows users to create their own categories this is the top ten:
1. Young
2. Stickam
3. Incest
4. Jailbait
5. Daughters
6. Teen
7. deutsche teens
8. little puff nipples and hairless pussys
9. School Girls
10. Very Cute Only
“And even if a lot of porn is teen porn, aren’t there a lot of teen boys watching it? Which demographic is watching what?”
In my experience adolescent boys generally prefer older women with big mummy boobies not young pert breasted adolescent girls.
“Anyway, it is not necessarily the best bet to go for a girl who is very young or hasn’t had any babies yet. If you go for a female who is a little older, for one thing she has survived longer, which tells you she has good genes.”
This is a good point. In many species, the males prefer the females that already have offspring and proven their mothering ability. For males that commit themselves to females for the purpose of getting as many offspring from them as possible over the long term, things are a bit different.
By committing himself to a young female that hasn’t started reproducing and proven her fertility, a male is taking a risk that she might have problems bearing children but this can be offset by the prospect of having all her future breeding years to himself.
hi George,
One question: if puberty comes earlier these days, won’t 10-12 year olds look the same as 14-16 year olds used to look when puberty came later? Isn’t physical appearance what triggers our attraction more than age, a number?
Wouldn’t it follow your logic better if we were still doing what we evolved to do- being attracted to girls who haven’t reached child bearing age yet? Most of the teen girls in porn could probably already have babies and look like they could.
Again, we need more rigorous data about the demographics and their preferences.
@Steve
Since women were rarely ever involved actually fighting predators in primitive social systems, their survival has more to do with the males around them than their own genes. Besides age and experience doesn’t quite work out if a 28 year old woman has never reared a child and a 19 year old is the mother of two; the 19 year old in this case is more *experienced* in raising children than the 31 year old.
In mainland India or the Arab world for example, most men and women in their 20s and early 30s have the emotional maturity of teenagers, because their psycho-social development has been hampered by the culture. They are economically adults but socially still kids.
I don’t agree 50 year olds going for 15 year olds, for purely humanistic and worldly reasons. In the present day world, we no longer live on subsistence and hence, it would be ethically wrong to have 15 year old have babies when they should have been educated so that they can hold themselves in the complex world that we live in. Also, the present day world doesn’t have the kind of tribal/social mechanism to protect the rights and interests of a 15 year old girl married to a much older man.
However, I strongly disagree with demonising teenage sex, the way they do in Anglo societies. It is more of a post-Victorian prudery that has been made a law, rather than any nature’s desig or anything that is inherently better for a teenager’s well being.
hi,
then men might choose woman of whatever age who have already had children, rather than strictly by age. Same logic. But older woman are more likely to have had children, right?
George addressed this point in his reply to me anyway. I’m not sure if he is right but he at least generously acknowledged the point.
I myself have never had any hang ups about men being attracted to teenage girls. I make a very strong distinction in my mind between a pedophile who is attracted to pre-pubescent children and a man who is attracted to a 15 year old who has developed into a young woman with breasts and pubic hair and hips. I think as men, we see a young woman with the physical signs of child bearing age and we are bound to be somewhat interested, even if it is taboo where we live.
I’ve got no big problem with relationships involving a young adult and an older adult either. However, the concern is always that a naive young girl will be manipulated by an older man who just wants to use her. She isn’t in the same league as him in terms of maturity and experience. That’s sort of the concern for me and maybe why young girls need to be protected from the advances of older men. Or do they?
*any nature’s design
Well, family planning & obstetrics in 3rd world countries have been my primary area of expertise for most of my research career.
The health consequences of pregnancy in mothers ages 12-15 yrs are quite severe-
An underdeveloped pelvis leads to difficulties in childbirth resulting in obstetric fistula (basically the vagina is torn from urethra to rectum resulting in chronic infection, urinary & fecal incontinence), higher rate of preeclampsia (gestational hypertension- cerebral stroke & organ damage highly possible), higher rate of underweight infants, higher rate of premature birth& preterm labor, and higher rate of poor nutrition due to poor eating habits.
All this results in an maternal death rate of 12-15 yr old mothers that is 30% higher than 20-24yr old mothers, and an infant mortality rate that is 40% higher than 20-24 yr old mothers. If the child of an 11-15 yr old mother survives past her first year she will still suffer a 40% higher death rate than children born to mother 20-24 yrs of age.
So, as you can see impregnating females 11-15yrs old isn’t really a great strategy for producing healthy offspring. It is a good idea to keep the female population down by increased maternal deaths though.
In 15/16-19 yr old mothers in DEVELOPED countries the negative consequences of pregnancy are primarily socioeconomic- as long as adequate prenatal care is provided.
In 15/16-19 yr olds in India however teen mothers between the ages of 15-19 yrs were just as likely to suffer malnutrition (anemia predominantly), preterm labor, & low birth weight infants as their younger counterparts.
“The health consequences of pregnancy in mothers ages 12-15 yrs are quite severe-”
Ah, you’re missing the point. Having sex with girls of that age in prehistoric times wouldn’t have normally resulted in pregnancy. Sex with girls that young would have probably served some kind of bonding purpose rather than reproduction per se.
Imagine a prehistoric man taking a little Lolita for a wife. They spend a few years being physically intimate, cementing their relationship and laying the ground for family life as she approaches her first pregnancy at about 17. This also allows him to be confident that this baby will be his as he has been regularly injecting her with his sperm for the few previous years.
George-
Ah, you’re missing several points.
What, pray tell, is going to keep ‘little Lolita’ from becoming pregnant during the ‘few years’ while prehistoric man is ‘regularly inject her with his sperm’ thereby ‘cementing’ their relationship?
Why is it every straight man thinks he’s a gynecologist?
Average onset of menstruation in human females is 11-12 yrs.
I’ve seen more than my share of pregnant 11 & 12 yr olds in India.
“Average onset of menstruation in human females is 11-12 yrs.”
That’s true for girls living in modern industrial societies. In primitive foraging societies that resemble our prehistoric past, girls don’t normally start ovulating until about 14. In the Kalahari and Hadza tribes it’s 16 and don’t conceive until about 19, though these are people living a harsh life in the desert and probably not very representative of our prehistoric ancestors.
The best guess as to the typical age of menarche and first conception in our prehistoric ancestors would be about 14 and 17.
George-
As YOU so rightly stated- don’t think foraging tribes in harsh desert truly represent ‘our prehistoric past’- so WHY bring it up?
Howard Kelly ,first professor of gynecology at Johns Hopkins, wrote the following in the 1928 edition (the last) of his text ‘Gynecology’
“It is not rare among Eskimo women that they have their first child at at the age of twelve, and children born before the mothers were eleven have been recorded.”
Probably much more indicative of ‘our prehistoric past’ than the Hadza of the Kalahari.
History shows us another trend:
Historical Data on Age at Menarche-
Early data:
Ancient Rome- 12-14yrs
Medieval Europe- 12-14yrs
Medieval Middle East 12-13yrs
Nineteenth Century:
Manchester 1840s-
working class women 15.7yrs
upper class women 14.6yrs
London 1855 (hospital patients) 15.5yrs
Germany 1869 15.7yrs
Scotland 1870 15.6-16.6yrs
London 1880 (middle class) 15yrs
U.S.A. late 19th century 12-14
Early 20th Century
USA 1905 14-15.7yrs
Sorry, I don’t see much evidence for your claim of only ‘girls’ living in modern societies having an onset of menstruation of 11-12yrs.
Oops- I meant the ‘Hazda OR the Kalahari’.
Geez I hate this mac keyboard.
“As YOU so rightly stated- don’t think foraging tribes in harsh desert truly represent ‘our prehistoric past’- so WHY bring it up?”
The reason I mentioned the Kalahari and the Hadza was to show you that menarche at 12 probably wasn’t the norm in our evolutionary history. These tribes are not the best model for prehistoric societies but they show that this way of life raises the age of menarche.
“It is not rare among Eskimo women that they have their first child at at the age of twelve, and children born before the mothers were eleven have been recorded.”
The reason for the early age of pregnancy for these girls was probably the enormous amount of fat they had in their diet. They ate very little plant food and got nearly all their calories from fat rich seafood. This made them start ovulating earlier than is “natural”.
“Sorry, I don’t see much evidence for your claim of only ‘girls’ living in modern societies having an onset of menstruation of 11-12yrs.”
This doesn’t make sense. It was you that claimed girls start menstruating at 11-12. I pointed out that this was only a modern phenomenon and then you post up data showing that for girls in the past the age of menarche was higher. WTF?
George-
‘I pointed out that this was only a modern phenomenon and then you post up data showing that for girls in the past the age of menarche was higher. WTF?’
Read what I posted again-
Ancient Rome- 12-14yrs
Medieval Europe- 12-14yrs
Medieval Middle East 12-13yrs
WTF is your problem?
Obviously there’s a bit more to menarche than diet, looking at these numbers. These young women were not living in ‘modern industrial societies’.
And to get back up on my soapbox again-
Gentlemen, allow me (the aging feminist cunt) to point out the obvious-
Sexual attraction in human males is NORMALLY based on the visual physical features of FEMALE SECONDARY SEX CHARACTERISTICS!
That’s right boys, all these ‘characteristics’ are signaling estrogen dominant status-
Enlargement of breasts and erection of nipples.
Growth of body hair, most prominently underarm and pubic hair.
Greater development of thigh muscles behind the femur, rather than in front of it.
Widening of hips; lower waist to hip ratio than adult males.
Smaller hands, feet & joints than men.
Rounder face.
Upper arms approximately 2 cm longer, on average, for a given height,
Estrogenic fat ratio- Changed distribution in weight and fat; more subcutaneous fat and fat deposits mainly around the buttocks, thighs and hips.
DUHHHHH.
Ovarian function in human females both hormonally & reproductively peaks in human females in the mid to late 20′s. In human females suffering poor nutritional status this window often narrows to 20-24 yrs of age with early menopause (also called premature ovarian failure) occurring by 30 yrs of age. I see this a lot in Indian women- just for comparison menopause in western women of European descent usually occurs between 51-55 yrs of age.
Why is it in a Marital Relationship, Man is always older than a Women? Answer from medical perscpective is Women are stronger physiologically[ atleast in reproductive age], then Men, [Men are stronger than Women Physically], Older man equals a younger women Physiologically.
If there is consistent blood contact through sex between say a Man in his 30s and a Woman in her 50s, he will develop Blood related diseases and problems.
‘If there is consistent blood contact through sex between say a Man in his 30s and a Woman in her 50s, he will develop Blood related diseases and problems’
What the Hell?
Is this another weird Hindu thing?
What ‘blood diseases’ are you speaking of AlanJ?
Not Hindu stuff; I read it in JAMA in Boston while waiting in an Dentists office, I am not able to find it on Google.
Anyway here is a joke to lighten you up.
A man wants to kill his wife, and asks his best friend to go about it in a way that he cannot be caught. Friend replies, that “he make sex to his wife 100 times a day, no women can stand that, In ten days she will be dead.”
The Man’s friends visits him at his home on the ninth day only to find the man purple in color in a wheel chair. Just at that moment, the mans wife pops out of house to enjoy some tennis and says jubilantly ” Tennis anyone” and leaves.
Man pointing his wife to his friend, exclaims that “She does not know, shes has got only one day left to live”
ahh to be Justin Beiber for just a day
Even though I am 36, my physical attraction mechanism froze in my mid-20s. I still desire women in their mid-20s and prefer being around them as much as I did then. I don’t like 35+ women. I rarely even turn my head to look at a woman over 30 unless she looks very good for her age. This is going to be a major problem for me in upcoming years and I’m trying to figure out what to do about it. Maybe in other countries where there is a lower obesity rate it’s not so much a problem. But in America, people start letting themselves go once they hit 30.
Oh, and about 25-27 is the sweet spot. If you make a graph with two plots, one for looks and one for maturity, they intersect somewhere around 26. That’s what I’m shooting for. A 26 year old.
If you’re a guy and you want to marry, half your age + 7 is a good guideline. If you can’t get that in America, then go to a country where young women have no issue with dating “older” guys, esp ones with money who are in good shape.
At age 65, you want to be like this guy: http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-Cdbj59fd50M/Ta3-IMAP33I/AAAAAAAABBQ/ifLnSWHKFtQ/s1600/Dos-equis-the-most-interesting-man-in-the-world.jpg
Not this guy:
http://data5.blog.de/media/660/2528660_7df83b174d_m.jpeg
An alternate strategy is to get into good shape and go somewhere with high rates of obesity. Then, you’ve got yourself easy pickings! You don’t even have to be in good shape, just have the ability to climb a flight of stairs. Or be able to roll down a flight?
I hate to sound drastic, Tulio, but I’d recommend becoming an expat, if you’re worried about this. God knows I’ve flirted with the idea of becoming an expat.
The love/romance market here is the equivalent of shithole India when it comes to overall standard of living.
Well, 36 these days is still young. Especially if you’re a man in decent shape that hits the gym and has an active lifestyle. If I’m not married by 40. I’ll consider looking to Colombia, Brazil or Europe for a pretty, fit and feminine women in her mid 20s.
Robert, you should do a reddit AMA. What is your username there if you don’t mind sharing it?
I do not have one.
I agree with Gary’s logic. I must point out though that girls aged 20 or so are thr most attractive because it correlates with peak fertility. After age 22 or 23 each day most girls become slightly less attractive with each passing day, as part of the uglification process. The wall in middle age, with men and women becoming monsters in old age.
A common regret of men: not banging their peer females as a teen when it would have been legal, and now they forever can’t. Most young teen males lust after older teen girls or those in their early twenties
Why do men feel entitled to a mate that is more attractive then they are? Women want attractive mates too. Trying to use science to justify liking teens is sick. They might look like adults but are really still kids. I’m not coming back to this site again because it seems to be occupied with the most selfish, unromantic, perverted men on the planet.
No one on here is screwing any teenage girls, so settle down and take a Midol.
At my age, they are nice to look at and reminisce about, but that’s about it.
I do NOT agree that your average teenage girl aged 15-19 is a “kid.” Sorry, it is just not so.