A visitor, apparently a Black man, questions whether Indians are Caucasians .
All the people of India are Caucasian? Really?
Your post is not making any scientific or anthropological sense. For how can anyone say that a transient people occupying an area of landmass, which is by far not genetically isolated, could all fall into one indefinable racial group, i.e. Caucasoid? It is obvious to almost anyone with a discerning eye that second probably only to Africa proper that the demographics that make up India or sub-continental Asia is very genetically diverse.
Genetically speaking, there in no such thing as a ‘unique Caucasoid racial group’, let alone any evidence that the genetic and phenotypical dominant features observable amongst many so-called “white Europeans” predates any similar or almost identical genetic phenotypes observable or expressed in most of Asia or Africa.
And besides skin color, which in the case of the so-called “white European Caucasian” is the absence of melanin, basically making their skin literally translucent, all other features are easily phenotypically observable amongst other people who have an older and more diverse genetic variation that has been relatively constant for tens of thousands of years (predating that of so-called “white European Caucasoids”).
At best, the so-called “Caucasoid” who are actually a minority of nomadic people that developed in Western Asia, should, as mentioned previously, be a sub-group of some other more ancient people, such as Dravidians, Australoids, or of course Africans.
The archeological evidence shows that the anomalous phenotype of the “white Caucasoid” is not the earliest found even in Europe proper, or better yet Western Asia, and is one of the most recent derivations of Homo sapiens.
Indians that have a broad phenotypic appearance and range of skin color that is similar to that of sub-Saharan Africans, do not have to identify with Africans, that’s their choice.
But it is sad that these same Indians who post here, being some the earliest to migrate out of Africa, acquiesce to European folklore to allow white Europeans to thrust upon them their erroneous and nonscientific racial standards.
These standards subgroup and defines Indians via of an obscure geographic region, the Caucasus Mountains, a region chosen to define the mythological origins of all “white people”, who in all actuality, are actually the Indian’s former colonial masters (what a coincidence).
This is a typical comment we receive on the Indian race posts. This person may be a Black person from his tone.
The question of the race of the Indian people can be determined in a few different ways. One way is to look at their genes. If we do, it is clear that most Indians have genes that line up fairly well with the rest of the Caucasian or Caucasoid group.
If we have to put Indians into different major races – Asian, Caucasian, Australoid, or Black, we are forced to put them into Caucasian. And there is no smaller major race that they can be lumped into either – Negritos, Oceanians and Amerindians won’t suffice. They are closer to Caucasoids than they are to any of those other groups, so they must go into that category by default.
It is true that Indians are one of the most divergent Caucasoid groups out there. The others are the Kalsah, a group from Pakistani Chitral that is sometimes considered to be a major race of their own and the Berbers, a Caucasoid group that is so divergent that they are barely into the Black quadrant on some charts.
Indians are divergent in the direction of Asians. If we plot them on graphs, Indians will look like Caucasians, but they will be at a far end of the Caucasian spectrum heading over towards the Asian end.
We can also look at skulls. Looking at skulls, we see that the vast majority of Indians have Caucasian looking skulls, that is, their skulls look more Caucasian than anything else. Some South Indians such as Tamils actually have Australoid skulls, but their genes are Caucasoid. What race you put them in depends on the system you use.
There are people in Northeast India who are clearly Asians and not Caucasians. In this part of India, Asian or Caucasian can best be determined phenotypically. Looking at genes and skulls, many Northeast Indians will indeed plot as Asians.
In the northwest of India, one can also see some Asian genes, though the people are mostly Caucasian. Punjabis have ~14% Asian genes in them, probably from the Stans and possibly from the Tibetan region.
Nepal is a very mixed bag racially, with many both Caucasoid and Asian types and a lot of mixes.
The visitor does make an interesting point – he suggests that Dravidians may actually be “ancient Caucasians.” I believe there may be some truth to that. The classical European White man is a pretty new model bipedal vehicle.
Actually, the question “Are the People of India Caucasians” is like asking “Are the People of Europe Slavs?” The answer is, “It depends on what ethnicity they are”. Sure, a Caucasoid looking Punjabi could be classified as a Caucasian but could you say the same for a Mongloid looking Naga or Mizo ‘Indian?
Most Indians are Caucasians. Yes, there are some Asians in the northeast. I mentioned that in the post. Almost all Indians outside the northeast are actually Caucasoid on genes. I have seen the genetic charts.
There is a theory that the Dravidians are actually from the Levantine, and may have been an original form of North African/Middle Eastern types that originated there; I keep hearing this. What is your take on that Robert Lindsay?
I agree with that theory.
I have seen Egyptians that strangely resemble Indians by a long shoot actually
Check out the Mozabites. Very primitive looking Berber people. They look something like Indians. I think they are very ancient Caucasoids.
http://anthrocivitas.net/forum/showthread.php?p=192133
They don’t look Indian in those pictures at all
It is more than a physical remsemblance. They even have the same thought process and personality types, in spite of having different sets of gods and different cultures.
Who? Berbers and Indians?
Egyptians and Indians. From a Sociological perspective, both the people of Misr and Hindu India have river civilisations, agrarian cultures, ethnocentric outlook and a strong religious fervour.
On a more personal observation, I find that people of the Middle East in general have an outlook and attitude towards life and people that is uncannily similar to Indians. Cultural puritanism, xenophobia, a tendency to pull down their own,a tendecy to look down at other ethnic groups to feel better about themselves, a strong disdain for liberal/secular ideologies, a pre-occupation with BC era ‘glories’ and such. They are pretty much from the same ‘mental box’ seperated over two geographic regions.
@ AI
Many of your observations regarding these 2 groups are basically the result of a post colonial hangover. Traditionally Hindus have never been too puritanical or history obsessed, these are merely responses to the humiliation of imperialism. Same for the Arabs.
If I were making a cross civilization observation, I’d say that the Indian culture of antiquity bore a resemblance to the culture of Iran. Both cultures had an introverted artistic style where art was used as a form of decoration (instead of representation as in the west), and both cultures placed a large premium on telling the truth. I think it was Herodotus who noted that telling the truth was the ultimate virtue in the Achemenid domain. This was also the case with the Aryans of India and the Mahabharat cites several examples of the Pandavas deceiving the Kauravas without technically uttering a lie. Truth was an intrinsic good in both cultures.
True but something I have noticed is that unlike India, people in the Middle East have a sense of fecal hygiene rights, and the sense that one needs privacy when defecating. Indeed they even have the uncanny notion that people need toilets and paper towels so that their entire population have somewhere to defecate appropriately. Even the ancient Egyptians had toilet papers too, can’t say the same for this sub-continent.
Dota
So did Iran have toilets or did they have people openly defecate on roads and fill their path ways with ditches? Iranians seem pretty keen on hygiene & fecal rights.
Iranians seem pretty keen on hygiene & fecal rights.
I am a very strong supporter of fecal rights.
Some people at Stormfront are like that.
Xera
The people who crap out in the open are generally peasants or dalits, the lower castes. They behave like animals because they have always been treated like animals. I’m disgusted by their behavior but my anger is not directed at them; but against the religion that refuses to acknowledge their humanity. I’ve said this before but in Indian culture the individual on the rung below you is not quite as human as you. He may possess human form, but no substance. A simulacrum. This is how caste has shaped Indian culture.
I was arguing with some Indian lady the other day, about Indian poverty in that region and the lady started raising her tone at me just for asking why that sub-continent is a shithole (not literally saying that word but still). I was given the usual bullshit of blah blah blah Indian its too poor and they don’t have enough money to construct a sewer system. But then I mentioned that some of the richest people in the world were Indians (no doubt leeched by those people) so they should have money to actually build a proper sewage system. I was given more and more bullshit about there being too many people so they can’t actually build anything to sustain that. Bullshit why are they having so many fucking people and how can they have many fucking children survive, then she gave me some crap about the human body able to adapt to one piece of bread and soup so they can survive.
I was getting pretty annoyed by her tone, then she went on to the usual Indian BS of saying “oh other countries were and have the exact same problems as India in it’s rural parts” BS, where she thought Chinese rural towns were as big shitholes as Indians. It was so much crap for me to take, because I have been to Chinese rural towns and they are light years ahead of garbage Indiot run villages thought they are far from being paradies. China is actually going somewhere, has the technology and are doing a far better job of modernizing it’s country then India, yet this moronic women couldn’t accept that they’re was something wrong with that idiotic society. Then she went on the usual BS of saying no country is rich other then Western countries, and those other countries are facing the exact same problems as India and in the same position.
Holy shit, I cannot stand Indians or people from that sub-continent, they are the most arrogant, ugly, close-minded, self-denying, pathetic, self-loathing, childish worthless people on this planet. Just nuke and bomb that entire sub-continent already and Indians can start fresh again.
@ Dota
You have a point. A lot of the cultural hangups among Indians does appear to have something to do with the colonial rule. However I am not too sure about the “Hindus weren’t puritans” part. Most of the social taboos and puritanical aspects of both Indian and Middle Eastern cultures were pre-British in origin. As an example, I doubt that the Indian practice of Sati or the Egyptian practice of FGM has anything to do with British imperialism.
The popular history of both these regions, which focus on the wealthy and nobles gives an impression of wealth and extravagance, but the life of the ordinary people was anything otherwise.
@ Xera
It was ancient Chinese who used toilet papers, not Egyptians. The idea of toilet paper went to the Middle East in the 6th century AD after Arab explorers travelled to China and observed that the Chinese used papers to clean their derrieres, instead of sand as the people of Middle East did.
Athiest Indian
I am pretty sure the Egyptians had a paper cleansing method of their own, they didn’t need the Chinese to figure out how to cultivate the papyrus. The whole Chinese thing is just more factual modification by the recent ethno-pseudo China rising scholars, for example China never did come to America but it was the Vikings, but you would be told otherwise in this day and age. Please stop the factual inaccuracies, like you did with your previous post which I didn’t really have the inclination or patient to respond to. The Egyptians used the same material to wrap their mummies, which is one evidence that they didn’t need the help of anyone else.
That’s completely irrevelent to the fact that modern Egyptians don’t shit out in the open and have a sense of fecal rights and privacy. Nor do they shit in rivers and act like slumdogs.
@ Xera
Irrelevant or not, you DID claim that ancient Egyptians used toilet paper, which they didn’t. Speaking of factual inaccuracies, when was the last time you actually sprouted a fact, Xera. So far all I have seen from you is unsourced and uncredible bullshit that no amount of Egyptian tissue can clean up.
“I am pretty sure the Egyptians had a paper cleansing method of their own…”
Yeah, right. Facts, anyone?
Hi Xera, 1% of Egyptians shit in the open right now. That’s mostly all in the rural areas AFAICT. 20 years ago or so, the number was a lot higher. Egypt has made tremendous progress in this area. Three cheers for toilets!
Take a shit and wipe your ass with sand? LOL. That sounds so terrible. Oh well, at least they wipe their ass. I don’t think sand would clean it up very well though.
@ Robert Lindsay
Using sand or dried clay is rather common in the Muslim world. It is considered a ‘farx’ (obligatory) if water isn’t available and ‘sunnah’ (optional) if water is available. I agree, it is better than not cleaning at all, which is very common in the Hindu states of India.
I agree with your 2nd paragraph.
Re. the 1st paragraph; rivers were the lifeblood (and to a good many, still is) of ancient civilizations, without which intensive agriculture might not have arose. So being a river civilization isn’t really a peculair similarity shared just between Egypt and India.
As far as Indians’ racial type goes. I am familiar with the general consensus and Carlton Coon’s assesement of India being predominantly caucasoid. I am Dravidian and disagree. While there are many among us who exhibit features that range from caucasoid looking to sort of maybee caucasoid admixture and some other race that can’t be defined exactly, I tend to picture Caucasoids as in addition to having certain features, also having fair skin generally across the board.
Indians/Pakistanis/Bangladeshis are supposed to be a mixture of Ancestral South indian and Ancestral North Indian. Neither term applies to a particular linguistic group, and there is no reason to assume that ANI refers to 1 race/ethnic group.
I think it is too simplistic to just go by Caucasoid,Mongoloid,Australoid and Negroid classification. Andamanese can’t be put into any such category. What would proto Mongoloid ancestors of Amerindians , Siberians and possibly the Sami be considered. What I am getting at is that races today diverged at different times and evolved their look from a proto ancestor that we couldn’t really pin point accurately as Mongoloid or Caucasoid. The Solutreans much bandied about in some far right spheres as White European who were the first in America, can not really be called White as at that epoch we don’t really know what they looked like and how similar they are to modern Euro Whites.
*irrelevant
But why would these Dravidians go all the way to India? Did th y use sail boats or did this migration happen because it was when the continents were connected closely?
They probably just walked from the Levant to India.
Yeah that’s like a really long way, you would have to cross parts of Russia, Europe, Iran, various other lands just to get there by foot, which is really a long way. Why go through that huge distance and trouble to get to this worthless [place. This must have happened long time ago when the temperature and climates were different.
Just walk across Mesopotamia, Iran, Afghanistan and Pakistan and there you are.
Robert what do you think about Indian immigration to the U.S? Honestly I’m terrified these third worlder’s might turn this country into a open sewer cesspool and implement their retarded moronic “values” and “views” so that one would never be able to actually fix an open sewer. Another problem is that they are not assimilating or intermarrying with other groups, thus they are carrying this rigid darwinistic shit system here, but also forming a separate entity that pretty much is unacceptable and goes against the cohesiveness/fabric of the country. You think the existence of the Blacks, Hispanics, and Asians will dissolve and neutralize any form of Indian existence and cultural takeover in the Western world?
This makes the Aryan invasion even more interesting, because what you have is one differently Caucasoid group enslaving another different colored Caucasoid group where two of the groups think they are entirely unrelated to each other. Along with the British and those Muslims rulers formerly enslaving a group that they think are below them and are not related to them genetically when they actually are and were. What’s more interesting is that these same Berber ancient Caucasoid Dravidian types ran the Barbary pirate white slave trade for half a century and raided all the way to Scandinivia, Imperial vessels and fought off the Vikings when their relatives in another continent were being colonized by the very white people these people were enslaving and raiding.
Actually the British were well aware that the Indians are Caucasians.
“…those Muslims rulers formerly enslaving a group that they think are below them and are not related to them genetically when they actually are and were.”
The Muslims rulers enslaving Indian people is actually a Hindutva myth, to foster a hatred among Hindus for Indian Muslims. Most of the Muslim invaders either left the country after a pillage and plunder session or stayed back and integrated with the people. The concept of races and genetics as we understand today didn’t exist at those times.
You sure about that? They only thought a sizable portion of them were
xera, are you on the hbgary payroll?
Many Brahmin reformers from ages have tried to reform Indian system, some have succeeded, and most have failed. All blame is put on Brahmins, but Brahmins have tried failed to reform the society. Some reformers that are popular as Basweshvara, Ramanujacharya, Madhvacharya, Rajaram Mohan Roy. People associate Hinduism with Sati, Child Burning etc. All of these social evils are eradicated. These practices were practiced at times when we were beseiged Barbarians. Great Civilizations from Middle-east has been pillaged and ruined startiing with Alexander, and the Mongols.
Most crime is done by lower castes, they are more rigid castists, sometimes a love affair between a Brahmin and a lower caste person can lead to the Brahmin being lynched. Most corrupt politcians are from lower castes.
How do you reform a lazy, drunkard[ who drinks illicit liquor] does not shower and beats his family everyday.
People quote Brahmins as poor. Our way of life expected is to be poor, not work for money, dedicate life to spiritual, religious and intellectual pursuits,. But modernity has changed many things.
Brahmin by definition is one is seeking or realized the impersonal God [GodHead] known as PARAB-BRAHMAN. Realizing God is not for the faint -hearted..
Many times one can physically distinguish a Brahmin from the general population. Most Kashmir Muslims were once Shavite Brahmins, foir that matter, Pakistanis, and for that matter Afghans were Buddists.
Its not what u are that matters, its what u are considered that matters. If an Indian was to claim to be caucasian, everyone would laugh. Lets be honest, they hate brown people including Indians, Iranians..etc.. Any Indian that thinks he is of european descent…LOL @ U! The Aryans were brown as well, they were Persian! Any Persian that considers himself European….LOL @ U! Brown people are just brown people, we are one race!
“…its what u are considered that matters.”
Typical Indian collective hive mind.
If “Caucasians” are people of West Eurasian descent, the answer to the question is that the people of India are Caucasian *in part*. Autosomal DNA analysis indicates that South Asian ancestry is composed in part from SNPs that are most frequent in West Asia (e.g., Turkey, the Caucasus) but also in part from SNPs that are most frequent within South Asia itself (referred to as “Ancestral South Indian”). Ethnic groups located the further south have greater ANI ancestry, and those further north, especially in Pakistan and Afghanistan, have greater West Asian ancestry. So basically, they’re West Asian/South Asian hybrids.
See:
http://dienekes.blogspot.com/2011/12/population-structure-in-south-asia.html
http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/gnxp/2010/10/sons-of-the-conquerers-the-story-of-india/#more-7456
Of course Indians are Caucasians. You only have to look at Indian albinos which lack all the dark Indian pigment to see that the predominant physical type is Caucasian. Look at this albino Indian family of beggers from Pushkar, India:
Recently, I learned about an Indian albino family from Delhi which set a new world record for having the largest number of albinos in a family. Here they are:
^You can clearly see their physical type is Caucasoid.
More Indian albinos:
http://farm1.staticflickr.com/207/535559954_3965ce90fe_z.jpg?zz=1
http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3309/3297670322_014739b24c_z.jpg?zz=1
http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3043/2868721152_37c731de01_z.jpg
@ Xera. I am Trinidadian (West Indian btw)I have read all your post and it is based off uneducated and racist answers. You are an ass hole. There is no difference at all from the dark skin Indian and the blonde hair blue eye northern Europeans. The first Europeans to come to Europe looked just like an Indian person. Even today there are many Indians who look “white” they are mostly in Northern India and Pakistan, now what’s your opinion on white blue, green eye Indian, that in fact look just like you. I suggest you stay off this post and put your money where your dirty mouth is, you are just talk, and you are not going to do anything to an Indian person or else you will be arrested and ass ##$% in jail for the rest of your misery life on this planet. You are a poor soul, an internet thug. I bet in real life you will never do what you say. So I suggest you find something to do with your spear time instead of posting mean comments and degrading the Caucasian race. Some people on here need to do there dam research instead of posting false information and go back to school too. Yes, I have interacted with whites and they told me I am one of their own, treat me as such and look out for me as well. I live in Georgia the deep south where there is open racism, and they are not racism towards me at all, neighbors, friends and associates alike. I have also racial communicated with whites as well, and it was awesome! You probably don’t know what that is, if anyone knows what I am talking about reply back to me, cause I would like to know more about it and how to perform it as well, cause I can’t “activate it”!