Indian Education: An Overview

Steve is a British man who is unfallibly optimistic about promoting India and its future for unfathomable reasons.

In the documentary I linked to, the kids in the slum went to school. The little girl spoke the best English in the family. Aren’t a lot of the population getting primary education and if so, I assume most of them learn to read, no?

Good Lord. Indian slums are wonderful! The kids even go to school!

Well, in rural India, in many places, there simply are no schools. I mean no schools. The teachers collect a salary, but they never show up for work, often because there is no school or maybe just because they don’t want to work. Typical Indian corruption.

In other places, there are schools but few or no teachers, so there’s no one to teach the kids. Many schools are virtually open air, and it’s quite common for schools to have no drinking water and especially no bathrooms. On top of all that, in rural India, it is very common to pull your kids out of school so they can go work. This is often done about age 9-10.

In Maoist areas, the schools never worked anyway because the teachers collected salary but then never went to work as is typical. After a while, the state starting using schools as bases for their state militias. They also stored explosives in there.

Pretty soon, the Maoists said fuck it and started blowing up the schools as they were nothing but bases anyway. The Indian press paraded this all over their front pages with headlines about “Maoists blowing up schools!” The Maoists then set up their own schools, and it was often the only schooling the kids ever got.

On top of everything else, school is often not in the native tongue of the students.

Higher education is a total disaster. All degrees, grades, everything, is for sale to the highest bidder. Want an A or a degree? Just pay off your professor or an administrator. For this reason, degrees from Indian universities are nearly worthless outside of India.

In many schools now, Dalits have formed gangs that threaten professors if they do not give good grades to Dalit students. If professors don’t give the student a good grade, the Dalit gangs threaten the professor or go beat him up.

I’m not sure how true this is, but a Brahmin friend of mine insists that this is the case in Karnataka.

India is truly Hell on Earth.

29 Comments

Filed under Asia, Corruption, Education, Higher Education, India, Left, Maoism, Marxism, Regional, South Asia

29 responses to “Indian Education: An Overview

  1. Bay Area Guy

    Well said, Robert, and a message that needs to be sent to retarded educational bureaucrats who think we should start emulating India.

  2. AlanJ

    Indian Education system was doing great till the British set foot to destroy it

    http://www.languageinindia.com/april2003/macaulay.html

    http://sundayposts.blogspot.in/2008/01/lord-macaulays-quote-on-india.html

    White Man’s burden; It is now Vishnu’s burden. You get the drift.

  3. Steve

    I think its fair to say I’m optimistic about India’s future.

  4. Steve

    mostly I’m just challenging very negative views of India and its prospects on this site….apart from that, I don’t think I’m concerned with promoting India.

  5. Aakash

    Robert

    There have been gangs of every caste imaginable in Indian colleges. Take out the IITs and NITs (top tier colleges) and a few other good colleges such as univ. of Mumbai or Jadhavpur univ. and what you get is absolutely shitty colleges where caste politics rules. Surprisingly, even the students that come over to the US from these shitty colleges (they are the majority of all Indian immigrants. Just ask any random Indian dude you know about where he got his education from) do spectacularly well in the US after a few years. Most of them work in IT. I myself have known plenty of these guys who work for companies such as Deloitte, SAP, IBM etc and are doing great.

    Even the immigrants that come over under the “family” visas (mostly Patels who’ve been queuing up for many years) do well after a while.

    There is nothing “selective” about Indian immigration to the US. Fact. But almost all the guys who do come in and settle down do well. It only says this: given the right opportunity and conditions, Hindus will perform very well. However, collectively, as a group, Hindus will not sacrifice their own well being to create new opportunities or to revolutionize the way things work. What America is, it is because of sacrifices by unknown people who worked tirelessly. I mean, building a city like NYC or Minneapolis in the cold takes plenty of sacrifices. I only wish Indians could collectively achieve something like that. The talent and intelligence are there. Just not the collective mentality that some people: especially people with more ability and talent, have to sacrifice a lot more for the collective achievement to go up. In India, all the smart guys are busy being investment bankers.

    • Howard

      Aakash,
      All immigration is selective. Even if there were no restrictions or special visas, the very fact that the immigrant has the money and drive to leave his homeland and pursue an unknown future is a form of self selection. The notion that a group of college educated Indians would do well in the United States, with only 30% of the general population having a Bachelor’s degree, is unsurprising. To suggest that we are not seeing the top tier of the Indian population is disingenuous. Perhaps not the top 0.01%, certainly a portion of the top 10%.

      You make a worth while point about collective sacrifice for the common good, but I suspect that that quality has peaked with the last century. The Republican primary race in America has shown the world that a sizable portion of this population wants their piece of the pie now. I suspect it has sometime to do with the loss of our faith in the future.

      • Aakash

        Howard,

        Look in the Bangladesh thread for my follow-up. I think my comments belong there.

      • Steve

        even if all immigration is selective, it is noteworthy that Indians do better than Pakistanis in the diaspora when according to you they are both selective immigrants.

    • Indians who immigrate to the United States do well because they have struggled in an education system that is far inferior and learnt to make the most of what they have. When they are in the US, they cope up with the (relatively) much better educational infrastructure of the US, as opposed to born Americans who complain a lot about how crappy their education system is, because they are intellectually too lazy to put their brains to work.

  6. According to Wikipedia-
    “Only 15% of Indian students reach high school, and just 7%, of the 15% who make it to high school, graduate. As of 2008, India’s post-secondary institutions offer only enough seats for 7% of India’s college-age population, 25% of teaching positions nationwide are vacant, and 57% of college professors lack either a master’s or PhD degree.”
    World Bank statistics found that fewer than 40 percent of adolescents in India attend secondary schools. “The Economist” reports that half of 10-year-old rural children could not read at a basic level, over 60% were unable to do division, and half dropped out by the age 14.
    Modern education in India is often criticized for being based on rote learning rather than problem solving.

  7. Steve

    By the way, I do realise how much poverty and corruption are in India and how much of a mess the country is in. I’m optimistic in that I think things are improving and likely to continue improving economically. I think in 100 years, India will not look like it does today. I think its likely to be significantly better in a range of ways. That’s my optimism. Of course, a lot can happen in 100 years- wars, resource shortages, depression- so the country could be a disaster zone but I’m optimistic and I don’t think Hinduism will prevent development. That is all.

  8. James Schipper

    Dear Aakash
    If Indian immigrants in the US were a representative sample of India’s population, about 2/3 of them would be illiterate or semi-literate peasants. That is certainly not the case. Conclusion: Indian emigration is selective.

    Regards. James

    • Aakash

      James

      In the context of “why do Hindu immigrants perform far more superior than Muslim immigrants when the conditions are normalized (such as in the west), a common explanation floating around this blog is that Hindu immigrants are “highly selected” or “selected by caste” or other whimsical reasons.

      But the same can be said about Muslim immigrants too. Obviously, Hindu immigration is no more or no less selective than Muslim immigration. But Hindus haven’t created a “Dearbornistan” in the US. Neither has a Hindu attempted to blow up a city. Also read Steve’s response to how things are panning out in the UK.

      So yes, from an objective standpoint, as Howard pointed out, all immigration is selective. However, in the context of the current discussion, it would be incorrect say that Hindus are “Highly Selected”.

      What has been your experience on this?

      A

      • Dota

        Aakash

        When you say Hindu immigrants perform better than Muslim immigrants, which Muslims are you referring to? Indians, Arabs, Persians, Bosnians, Afghans, Thais, Chinese? Immigration policies are formulated around Nationality and perhaps ethnicity, but never religion. But as an Indian, religion forms a major component of your primitive collectivist mind; ergo you commit the fallacy of comparing a racially diverse global community to a geographically concentrated one. That’s like saying that Sikhs perform better than Christians. Which Christians? Scandinavians or Mexicans? You have no argument because you are talking out of your rear. You have provided no statistics and like most Hindu chauvinists who drift here you have also neglected to account for caste (pretending it doesn’t exist).

        • Aakash

          “When you say Hindu immigrants perform better than Muslim immigrants, which Muslims are you referring to? Indians, Arabs, Persians, Bosnians, Afghans, Thais, Chinese?”

          Again context dumbass context. Of course we’re talking about India and because you follow that brilliant theory about muslims being “hinduized”, the comparision is obviously between Indian Hindus and Indian/Pakistani/Bangladeshi muslims. So yeah, Hindus definitely perform way better than Muslims. Even at grad school, the south asian muslims I knew were more content on hanging out at the Mosque (and according to a moderate, beer drinking “muslim” I knew, they spout extremism on almost a daily basis inside those mosques). Go to Houston, TX and see for yourself how shitty the south asian muslim community really is.

          I might also add the Hindus perform way better than Arab muslims. It is obvious. Arabs created Dearbornistan. And apparently, some school kids over there love exotic T-shirts:

          http://www.debbieschlussel.com/14788/dearbornistan-muslim-arab-students-sweatshirts-glorify-911/

          Persians: According to this graph, less than half of Iranian Americans are muslim. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:IAmericanreligions.png

          Persians may be the only “muslim” immigrant group that probably perform as well as Hindus. But then, most of the “muslim” persians I know are anything but.

          “Bosnians, Afghans, Thais, Chinese?”

          Not enough of them to make a comparision.

          “You have no argument because you are talking out of your rear. You have provided no statistics”

          Like your contention that somehow most of the muslims from south asia are “peasant” but most of the Hindus are “Brahmins and Traders” ? Care to provide statistics for either? Especially for the first part about muslim immigrants being mostly “peasants”?

          It is obvious that you are nothing but a muslim gatekeeping moron of this blog. Calling me a chauvinist? If I am a chauvinist, you are prophet muhammed. Enough said.

        • Dota

          Aakash

          “”Again context dumbass context. Of course we’re talking about India and because you follow that brilliant theory about muslims being “hinduized”, the comparision is obviously between Indian Hindus and Indian/Pakistani/Bangladeshi muslims. “”

          Well done slumdog, you’d be the first Hindu chauvinist to drift over here and figure that out. And it isn’t ‘my theory’ but is accepted in mainstream Acedemia.

          “”So yeah, Hindus definitely perform way better than Muslims. “”

          Stats? Median income chart? Common Narendraji, give me something.

          “”Go to Houston, TX and see for yourself how shitty the south asian muslim community really is. “”

          Nice try, but Houston, Austin and Dallas have a vibrant Bawoodi Bohra community who are filthy rich. I know this because my sister and her Husband live there and have a combined income of over $300k /year. Again, its about community/caste.

          “”Persians may be the only “muslim” immigrant group that probably perform as well as Hindus. But then, most of the “muslim” persians I know are anything but.””

          I can safely say the same thing for most the successful Hindus I’ve met in the States. They also tend to prefer Tequila to cow piss.

          “”Like your contention that somehow most of the muslims from south asia are “peasant” but most of the Hindus are “Brahmins and Traders” ? Care to provide statistics for either? Especially for the first part about muslim immigrants being mostly “peasants”? “”

          The peasants are primarily Punjabi Pakis you illiterate Jat, I made that quite clear. And Brahmins dominate silicon valley, Gurcharan Das makes that quite clear in ‘India unbound’:

          Indians are especially good at mathematics and theoretical physics (as opposed to experimental physics). Indians invented the zero. The information age thus plays to our strengths. It is not surprising that many of our information technology entrepreneurs, both in Silicon
          Valley and in south India, come from the Brahmin caste, not from the traditional trading castes.

          “”It is obvious that you are nothing but a muslim gatekeeping moron of this blog. “”

          Given Robert’s latest article about the Arab Spring, I’d say that I’m doing a lousy job no? Now head back to Bharat slumdog, and burn down Ismail chacha’s chai dukan. Make sure you also have 10 of your buddies with you, old people can put up quite a fight.

      • Xera

        excuse me Hindu’s are not a problem in the U.S? that’s laughable. They are hated in the IT world, have extremely backwards practices and hygiene, and are known for commiting fraud, scams though call centers, practicing caste, being racist and only hiring Indians over whites and destroying every single company they touch. There was a list of companies that have been so far destroyed by Indians which has been repeatedly posted time & time again but I am not going to post it here because I am sure someone posted it here already.

      • Rahul

        Dota jumps in everytime to defend islam whenever there is a slightest opportunity and says he hates it what an irony..if we are slumdogs so are you son!!

  9. Aakash

    “There was a list of companies that have been so far destroyed by Indians which has been repeatedly posted time & time again but I am not going to post it here because I am sure someone posted it here already.”

    Last I saw, it was you who posted it. You really are the mummy of all retards.

  10. James Schipper

    Dear Aakash
    You are right in your claim that Hindu immigrants are not more rigorously selected than Muslims, Africans, etc is quite correct.

    In Canada, we have a rather large immigrant community from India. It seems that as many of them are Sikhs as Hindus. I’m not aware of any political problems caused by Hindus in Canada. The Sikhs have blown up an airliner of Air Canada in revenge for the attack on the Golden Temple.

    How the economic performance of Hindus in Canada compares with those of Muslims and Sikhs from India is a question that I can’t answer because Canadian statistics don’t concern themselves much with religion.

    When Indian-Canadians cause headlines for the wrong reasons, it is usually because of domestic violence.

    Rest assured that I don’t lie awake at night worrying about Hindus.

    Regards. James

    • Dota

      “Rest assured that I don’t lie awake at night worrying about Hindus.”

      Fortunately you aren’t an Indian Muslim living in Gujarat.

      • aakash

        “Fortunately you aren’t an Indian Muslim living in Gujarat.”

        Or a Hindu living in muslim Pakistan. Oh, wait, “Hindu” and “living” in Pakistan are contradictory? Well an Indian Muslim Javed Akhtar seems to think so:

        Yes, shithead, as he asks, where are the Hindus in Pakistan?

        • Dota

          Aakash

          Pakistan is a shithole. Now that we have established a point of agreement, let me ask you, has there been any anti Hindu incident in Pakistan post 1947 that parallels Gujarat 2002? As Atheist Indian pointed out sometime ago, the Hindi is intrinsically a coward who will only pick on a community or target that is completely helpless and outnumbered 10:1 in his favour, whether its Gujarat or Graham Staines.

          PS – I disagree with Javed Akhtar and Naseerudding Shah about India being good to muslims, but they are entitled to their opinions. I just don’t think the Indian state deserves the loyalty of its Muslim, Christian, Kashmiri, and Assamese populations.

        • Dota

          correction: the ‘hindu’ is intrinsically a coward…

      • “Fortunately you aren’t an Indian Muslim living in Gujarat.”
        Or a Catholic living in Karnataka.

    • aakash

      James

      Here are a couple of links from census and NY times that may interest you as it relates to the economic performance of Indians in the US.

      Page16 on this:

      http://www.census.gov/prod/2004pubs/censr-17.pdf

      http://www.nytimes.com/2006/10/29/world/americas/29iht-indians.3322280.html?_r=1&pagewanted=al

      A

    • “When Indian-Canadians cause headlines for the wrong reasons, it is usually because of domestic violence. ”
      I did a couple of months at a flying school in Campbell River, BC. Indians used to come up often in the news, apparently they have created quite a name in Vancouver and other parts of BC for organised crime and drug trade gangs.

  11. Aakash

    Man I tried to post a reply but it disappeared. But here goes.

    “Stats? Median income chart? Common Narendraji, give me something.”

    Here Zakir Bhai. Page 16. Let me preempt you by saying that Hindus are the majority of Indians so yeah it is indicative of Hindus.

    http://www.census.gov/prod/2004pubs/censr-17.pdf

    http://www.nytimes.com/2006/10/29/world/americas/29iht-indians.3322280.html?_r=1&pagewanted=al

    “Nice try, but Houston, Austin and Dallas have a vibrant Bawoodi Bohra community who are filthy rich. I know this because my sister and her Husband live there and have a combined income of over $300k /year. Again, its about community/caste.”

    So what caste does this guy belong to? Seems to be well educated. So is it his caste that is motivating him?

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Farooque_Ahmed

    Or this guy? What caste is he? So you mean to say its his caste thats leading him to do all those things?

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Faisal_Shahzad

    “I can safely say the same thing for most the successful Hindus I’ve met in the States. They also tend to prefer Tequila to cow piss.”

    Yes the great cow piss phrase that every muslim has to utter to every Hindu. Hey what about this? Apparently “prophet” muhammad was rather fond of camel urine.

    http://www.luvu4luv.com/Hadith_Bukhari_Book60.html

    http://www.emirates247.com/news/emirates/arab-scientists-claim-cancer-cure-from-camels-2011-01-12-1.341187

    Allah screwed your skullcap rather strong didnt he? Seems to have also fitted it with a “muslim logic” data filter. So camel urine: out, cow urine: in.

    “Given Robert’s latest article about the Arab Spring, I’d say that I’m doing a lousy job no? ”

    No but you are the first to whine about equating Arabs with Islam or vice -versa to be more specific.

    “Now head back to Bharat slumdog, and burn down Ismail chacha’s chai dukan. Make sure you also have 10 of your buddies with you, old people can put up quite a fight.”

    Whatever dude. Make sure that you, along with your muslim buddies don’t burn a train full of Hindu men, women and kids. But if you do, escape like this donkey did.

    Of course its not gonna be as good as this donkey

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buraq

    • Dota

      Your sources are a joke. The point is that caste = privilege. You haven’t been able to deny that. Can people rise above caste handicaps? Sure, but caste privilege exists and plays a disproportionate role in a community’s success. Muhammad Iqbal and Salman Rushdie both came from Brahmin families who converted to Islam. Small wonder that they both left their mark on the literature/philosophy scenes which are both the traditional domain of the Brahmin. Caste supersedes religion in India.

      And the camel piss thing, it’s been debunked; scholars have established that the sources are unreliable. And Muslims have never touched the stuff, not even the Khaleejis. Love the links that you’ve posted though, amusing.

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