Xera, an Egyptian-American, talks about when he took a recent trip to Bangladesh recently. What was obvious to me was that this place has problems that go far beyond those of a typical Muslim country.
In fact, this Muslim country doesn’t seem all that Muslim at all! It seems like a Hindu country or a country with some other non-Muslim culture instead. The shocking truth is that Muslim culture has probably made few inroads at all into Bangladesh. For all their praying and fasting, Bangladeshis may as well have just stayed Hindus and saved themselves some time and some hunger pangs. It also shows that you can’t look at the religion of a country and decide what kind of culture it has.
For Bangladesh is a Muslim country that lacks a Muslim culture. Instead, it’s a country where the religion is Muslim but the culture is Hindu. It’s amazing since Bangladeshis have been Muslims for probably 500 years, yet Islam has hardly made a dent in the place.
And once again, this post shows how deadly and ruinous Hindu culture really is. There are many analyses lately about the failings of Muslim culture. That’s all interesting, but Muslim culture has still given us some very wealthy and advanced socieites in the Gulf. A Hindu culture could never have created Dubai.
For all its failings, Islam as a religion and a culture is still vastly superior to Hinduism in that sense. As long as seculars are bashing Islam as Medieval, we may as well join and bash Hinduism. Hinduism is worse than Medieval. We had advanced a lot by the Middle Ages. Good God, Hinduism is nearly Chalcolithic! If Islam is still in 700 AD, as it may well be, Hinduism is stuck in 1700 BC. Which is more advanced?
I had a similar experience when I once went to a third world country (although now identified as a developing country for a reason I can’t fathom) a while back after not having been there since the age of 7 and living in emerging & post-Industralized countries in that period between when I last went there.
At first when I went in the Airport to head to said country, I had never seen so many ugly people congregated in the same space in my life at this point.
There were obviously from there, but I told myself that I was being too shallow, and maybe these people were dealt a bad hand coming from a poor impoverished country. Thus the utter contempt and scorn they received from the upper echelons of American society because of the fact that they were too much the result of whatever background they came from. Hence they were unable to meet the highest ideals set down by modern American society until maybe 2 generations after.
Then I saw their behavior, their lack of hygiene, their filthiness, backwardness, and of course their close-mindedness. They were disgusting & childlike, obnoxious, (things I took note when I was on the airplane) and just childish primitive assholes. This is not because I am a condescending jerk, as I tried being polite and decent with them, but I didn’t see any attempt at civilized behavior or manner in return. They were uncompromising, irritating, disgusting and narrow-minded.
I was in this country for two months for a friend, and the whole time I was there, I was sick of the attitude and short-sightedness of the people that resided there. The sheer ugliness of the people here inside & out gave me shudders. The place I resided in was severely overcrowded, the roads weren’t even made correctly and they were half-done roads that people were crowding around blocking the cars.
The traffic the design of the cities & places was so fucking bad it took me 4-6 hours just to cross 4 blocks during noon. I had to wait until there was actually space to drive on the roads, which was, I swear to God like waiting to win the lottery. The traffic was fucking terrible, they were people walking on the fucking roads and there so much smog & congestion that it suffocated me. You had to add the extreme heat during the afternoons and and holy shit you could die.
Even Mexico or Brazilian favelas would be paradise compared to this shithole. They’re was garbage and shit in this one river because no had the decency or will to clean it up, let alone not throw shit in it. Everything else wrong with the country was someone else’s problem, and someone else had to fix it.
The state was corrupt of course, to the point where someone had the money to fix all these things – we are talking some billions of dollars – yet these people were so callous, self-serving and short-sighted that they wasted it in on building useless shit. What kind of shit?
Like a fucking planetarium, on Ipads, Iphones, cellphones, outdated former model cars, flat screen TV’s, Macbooks, pirated DVD’s, alcohol, big screen home theaters (in private apartments in 3rd World countries, yes those apparently exist).
Yes they would spend all their money on this stuff when they could use the money to install a proper sewage system, sanitation, waste disposal, toilets, sidewalks, roads, public water, clean air, windmills for cheap power or proper traffic control. And there were none of these things.
They could have fed the malnourished, dying, horribly desperate children on the streets that would come and beg at car windows, but they didn’t.
Did I mention power? Of course, the power went out every single day in the evenings, sometimes even in the afternoons, where there were masses of mosquitoes that would try to come inside my apartment. Where did the mosquitoes breed?
In ponds and the same garbage rivers that were spread out throughout the city and no one was willing to pay someone to clean these up (which they had) and fill these rivers with mosquito eating fish or had the brains to even figure out that masses of mosquitoes were breeding there.
It was irritating because I had to sleep in a makeshift net in my room to prevent mosquitoes, and if I moved there was a possibility the entire net would unbalance itself.
I couldn’t even find a public trash can to throw trash in the streets, because if I actually found a trash can outside a store and threw my trash in it there was a possibility I would get arrested!
People however had the time to fucking watch T.V for 12 hours a day, pray to a nonexistent God that most likely was some sort of an extra-terrestrial, congregate in family meetings and argue over the most childish things, while there was disease rotting outside in public.
Who was to blame for their miserable existence? Why Americans of course, because Americans are the cause of everyone’s problems worldwide according to these people.
And Americans are all too stupid to study science and do the science & engineering jobs in their own country, and apparently all of it was done by 3rd Worlders like them & other “immigrants.” Hence they have the right to come here and take the wealth created by the hard work of Americans.
Thus jobs are outsourced and the best & brightest of America’s scientific progress are done by primitive turds from these backwater cesspools. And apparently Americans took everything away from them even though America never colonized that country.
They had no real concept of self-respect or that of a higher society or civilization. They just watch to eke out a primitive existence in forced urbanization imposed by past European colonists. They were too greedy, idiotic and self-righteous to figure that they’re culture & religion was not right, and that was one of the reasons why their country was shit.
They seemed to have no self-reflective analytical abilities save for whatever they could get their hands on to show how much better off and powerful then they were of the next guy. I really had sympathies for them at first, but then I lost all my sympathy for them.
Why? Because I realized they don’t want to change, they don’t understand the concept of self-respect or civilization and they don’t have the self-analytical ability to penetrate outside their world views or the shields of society passed down to them.
After that experience which I don’t want to repeat again, I firmly began to believe in some sort of race biology & realism. These people don’t give a damn about higher concepts of honor or are too stupid for civilization, and yet they use immigration status and yet don’t really understand the concept of assimilation nor do they want to assimilate in the first place.
They would gladly siphon all the wealth out of Western countries and wouldn’t feel guilty about it one bit. God help you people if you think bringing the best & brightest of a callous stupid, primitive, backwards, self-serving group from downtrodden countries is somehow going to augment Western civilization or be held up to the same standards here.
Yes I realize a lot of you have more thicker skin then me, and a lot of older people here can easily filter & disregard these things, but I don’t really have guts or the thick skin to handle these things.
But thank god I live in North America, and I would definitely be careful about bringing people from these environments, especially in mass numbers, which would be suicide on a civilization scale unless you can lessen the damage by extreme interrogation & filtration of them when they immigrate.
This place was an absolute toilet bowl.
Well, as Dota has frequently pointed out, Race and ethnicity > Religion every time.
Thanks BAG, and I think it bears repeating because we are having this conversation waay too many times. Honestly what do you people expect from Islam? a miracle? Won’t happen. Yes, Islam is fiercely egalitarian as it was born in a tribal society where economic equality was paramount. However Islam melds into the cultures it comes in contact with, and does not replace them. If a culture is elitist and fiercely anti-equality, then Islam will not replace those values. It will simply ensure that the populace bends in Mecca’s direction and that’s about it. South Asian Muslims are completely Hinduized, and Bengalis even more so as they are extremely proud of their culture and language. You cannot magically expect south Asian cultures to embrace philanthropy when such values are not consonant with their collective psychology. Indian/Pakistani/Bengali Muslims are just as backward, elitist, and misanthropic as their Hindu neighbors. The power of religion is limited, and that’s something neither the Islamphobes nor the Wahabis can fathom. I’d still take south Asian Islam over Wahabi madness any day.
Indian (Hindus) and Pakistani Canadians seem the same to me in the way they behave, this coming from someone who has had a lot of dealings with them. Aside from their religion and some subtle and not so subtle physical differences, they’re the same people inside. Religion? Well it’s done a wonderful job at enforcing their hatred for one another.
I haven’t had a lot of encounters with Bangladeshis, but most of the ones I’ve met left a bad taste in my mouth. For example, a 23 year old claiming a whole bedroom to herself while her whole family — two parents and siblings — slept in one room.
Really can you tell us any stories of how they deal with each other and your experience with all three groups?
I woked in California for a company owned by a Bengali. His younger brother managed the warehouse/sales office at which I worked and the youngest brother ran the warehouse in the back. The owner was well-spoken, intelligent, always clean, well-groomed and nicely-dressed, as was his brother, the manager (in retrospect I suspect the owner was gay, as he was in his 40s and never-married, which is unheard-of for that culture). The manager was even more well-dressed than his older brother. He had previously owner several locations of a franchised tobacco and gift-shop and would very often approach me in the afternoon to have a cigar (he was a huge cigar afficionado) and sometimes have a nip of a nice liqueur or cognac. The youngest brother was something of the loser in the bunch, somewhat clumsy, not terribly well-spoken, prayed to Mecca 5 times a day (I never saw the other two pray), argued in Bengali with his fiancee on the phone several times a day and kept mostly to the warehouse. Ferdous (“Bobby”), the manager, would sit with me as we smoked cigars and share with me, in his soft, well-cultured voice, what life was like in Bangladesh. Turns out their father had owned the pharmaceutical company which manufactured Bayer asprin for that region. He told me how, as a younger man, they would wait for the postman to come by and give him tea, in exchange for which he would allow Ferdous to look through his bag to see if anyone was sending lettrers to his girlfriend which, if found, he would open, read and burn. He also told me of his mandatory pilgrimage to Mecca for which he summarised “Arabs are the craziest fucking assholes I have ever met, I will never go back there again”. His daughter attended a Muslim school in southern California, but the students were not required to wear head-scarves (he also took her to a big concert with Ricki Martin and others). Between that, the cognac and the fact only the brother in the back prayed, I gathered that Bengali Islam is extremely moderate in general practice. He even told me unequivocally several times that he didn’t believe that the Koran should be taken entirely literally, since it was written so long ago and people and the world were much different now, that only an idiot sticks to medieval principles and takes fables as literal truths. Obviously, they were from one of the wealthiest families in the country and clearly couldn’t get out of there quickly enough. His general tone indicated that he felt the majority of Bengalis were stupid peasants and he identified very little with them. And he loathed Indians, he would incessantly bag on them and characterise them as backwards, closed-minded, ignorant and hostile (he’d comment that, whenever Indians went on vacation to other countries, the first thing they would look for were Indian restaurants and grocery stores and they generally stayed in their hotels the entire time; my own experience with Indians here in Canada is quite different, and the ones born here are indistinguishable from any other Canadians except by their names and color of their skin, they are entirely, completely assimilated [they say "eh" and pronounce the OU diphthong in that distincly Canadian fashion]). Clearly, these men were examples of extremely privileged, well-educated and worldly Bengalis, which goes to show that life-experience and education are the prime determinants when it comes to how one views the world and one’s place in it, less so genetics. Ferdous and his brother were fine, fine people, a pleasure to work for and hang out with, generous beyond my experience and they loved America like nobody’s business. Bangladesh, it appeared, they would just as soon have seen flushed down the toilet.
Dota
I think India needs it’s own Peter the great extremely badly. He should start by depopulating every single city and town into the rural areas to build a clear efficient food production system that can feed the entire population first. Build an extreme ruthless totalitarian state that splits every penny of wealth that goes to the coffers to state-run projects, outlaw religion, religious rituals, customs, traditions, practices completely until completely phased out. Have massive brain-washing & cleansing of upper-caste, rich Indians. gangs, opposition groups, rural villages, religious leaders. Have mass public executions of undesirables, wealth holding plutocrats, caste practitioners and believers, corrupt politicians, hoarders.
Start building some fucking wind mills, clear roads, power lines, water pipes, farms, highways, railroads, sidewalks, PUBLIC SANITATION AND A SEWAGE SYSTEM. After you have developed a sufficient agricultural sector with a SURPLUS yield of crops daily, start building rural towns with electricity, running water, internet access, railroads,then start segregating the different groups as they were before the British came in, and make each village into small factories, technological farms, get some tractors and heavy farm equipment similar to the ones used in the U.S. Destroy every religious temple and monument, just like Peter did with the church bells in orthodox Russia and use it to build up the towns and roads. They should completely execute the people who pray to the ganges, clean up the goddamn river and practices in relation to it, empty the surrounding towns and build the entire ganges into a massive port city with a modern atheistic outlook and make it into the Indian St.Petersburg.
He should filter out all the people with skills, such as artisans, architects, scientists engineers, specialists, teachers, doctors, lawyers, professionals, scientists, mediciners, talents and specialties, laborers, artists, specific skill sets that pretty much benefits the general population. Get rid of the rest that’s useless, which includes the plutocrats, religious leaders, undesirables etc. From there start building the entire country and population. Get a sizable police and military force, build up public institutions so the knowledge and wealth is equally distributed and then the guy can start building up everything from there including large scale cities, towns, Industries, capital, disaster relief, monuments, public places, stores, goods, power plants, economical services, supplies, education, organizations, large scale infrastructure projects, subways, technological sectors, port-cities, non-corrupt banks & capital, everything else will fall into place after the aformentioned is done.
Have massive brain-washing & cleansing of upper-caste, rich Indians.
Have an even better idea, try deporting these guys to any barren wasteland that comes to your mind, and I promise you, that country will have its first universal healthcare system decades before your Indian ‘Peter the Great’ puts in a decent healthcare system in place
None of this is going to work. You cannot outlaw Hinduism, you have to work with it. Unfortunately Indian culture is not known for engaging itself and Hinduism has resisted reform for centuries. What’s depressing about Indian culture is that the classes which are most oppressed by caste seem to want to defend it the most. This is what makes Hinduism dangerous, that people choose to wallow in the shit of their ”superiors’. Hindutva is Brahminism, but even Hindutva cannot bully Hindu society, so they try and appeal to tradition. Their coercive power comes indirectly via the lower castes who then perpetuate the system on behalf of the Brahmins.
“They were uncompromising, irritating, disgusting and narrow-minded.”
“I had never seen so many ugly people congregated in the same space in my life”
“I firmly began to believe in some sort of race biology & realism.”
Does anyone deserve to be saved, Herr Fuhrer?
Dota I think it can work, lots of places have reformed themselves over the centuries. Just look at Peter the Great in Russia, Genghis Khan and his various dealings with different religious orthodox states, Cardinal Richeleu in France, Northern Europe during the protestant reformation, Chinese empire built around no religion but on the basis on confucianism, Mao, Japan during the Meiji restoration, various states in the Middle East, the Turks in anatolia & North Africa, Egypt etc. India has everything to become some sort of superpower, it has sufficient land, resources, and most important of all it has access to ports, important sea routes, good terrains & environments.
The only problem is that there has never been a ruthless leader like any of those places, with his prime directive towards the well-being of the state and the country first before the people. The reason why Hinduvta most likely exists is because of illiteracy and brain-washing, hence those people defend the same old tired religion and caste practices because thats all they have been told. Just reverse brain-wash them and things will play out.
Forgot to mention Italy with Machiavelli and the starting of the renaissance
that sounds horrible. More evidence that anti-religious extremists can be just as fanatical and ruthless as the religious extremists, if not worse.
Its interesting that all Peter the great and the communists managed to do was suppress Christianity. Despite some of the most comprehensive and murderous attempts to eradicate Christianity imaginable, all they managed to do was suppress it.
Oh yeah, and dictatorship as a counterbalance to corruption….that usually works out well.
I sort of see what you are thinking but it would just bring about vast amounts of murder, widespread repression, fear, spying, torture, and a terrible kind of suppression of the human spirit…and in all likelihood you don’t even reach the social and economic ends that are supposed to justify all that evil and suffering.
Steve I don’t care about Religion all I care about is what works. If Protestant Christianity could somehow save India, make into a Naval superpower, a leader and top of the field at cutting edge technology, the top of the world at ship building and massive cargo aquatic transportation between different countries & continents, the biggest manufacturers of electric cars and alternative energy vehicles, the absolute best quality producer and developer of locomotives, the leading producer of internationally demanded luxury goods then I am all for that. If protestant Christanity can produce complete solar panel covered highways carrying massive water+sewage pipes throughout the ENTIRE indian subcontinent powering every single town and district in India w/ running water, phone lines, internet, proper sanitation then I am all for protestant Christanity. If Prostestant Christanity can turn every single village in India into economical units producing surplus foods, vegetables, grain, milk, meats every year on a state to national level, as well as bringing internet access & sanitation treatment, medicine, water, schools, books and operational roads to every village then I am all for it. But we know that won’t ever happen due to how the hindu religion is set up.
Just to bring hope, the British managed to rule the entire Indian sub-continent for many years with force, and they were a single entity. I am sure a similar thing can happen with some sort of Indian peter the great.
Xera, you say you don’t care about religion but central to your whole plan for India is to destroy Hinduism and kill everyone who disagrees. You obviously care about religion in India. Everything I said stands.
You are misintepreting what I said, I don’t care and despise this Hindu religion and influence because of the effect it’s having on this sub-continent. If it had a reverse effect I would not complain or if another religion was in place that had a reverse effect i would have no objection. Your point does not stand or make any sense.
Sorry to any Bengali people because I didn’t want to mention the country to offend anyone but this how I saw it. Maybe there are parts of Bangladesh that is beautiful that I didn’t see, as I only stayed in the capital city. However the experience I had in that city was too much for me too handle. Plus the idiotic and assholish behavior of the people did not give me a good impression of that race. I never saw any real good-looking guys either. Supposedly I was told, that there is a saying that since Bangladeshi’s are not used to success in this age, they always try to bring their own down wherever they are and kiss up to someone more powerful & who is different because they don’t even like each other that much or themselves; also have never done anything to enjoy real success or be of a powerful position involving their own kind, so they can’t even get along among themselves in even the smallest of matters with someone else.
The culture sucks as all Hinduized cultures do, and it’s more involved with primal survival. The culture has no emphasis on self-achievement, masculinity, or intelligence. The culture is like any synchronized Hindu culture, in that the daily events & rituals are meant to respect some higher form of hierarchy, & obedience over themselves. They can’t even seem to cooperate & compromise among themselves like people of other developed countries because they are trying to outdo each other somehow; life in this culture is all about a game of egoism, superiority, & survival. They are for the most part thick, self-centered childishly, & have no manners or concept of a greater good unless it involves figures more powerful and foreign to themselves. Bangladeshi Muslims are also taken of advantage by Arabs and I have been told they are in the lower echelons of the Islamic world, unless the Bengali 1) is rich or 2) Americanized 3) represent an indeterminable race to be indistinguishable or all of them. That were my observations so far.
I have a question: Why has India since 2000 economically outperformed both Pakistan and Bangladesh?
It isn’t as if India has any natural advantages compared to its 2 Islamic neighbors.
Regards. James
Who cares? They’re all shitholes. Pakistan has WAY less starvation and malnutrition than India, though the figures are comparable. Considering all the starving people, what good is all of India’s worthless economic growth?
“Why has India since 2000 economically outperformed both Pakistan and Bangladesh?”
In what way? Both Pakistan and Bangladesh outperform India in terms of economic growth and per capita GDPs. On a more primal level, India is much more a shithole than either Pakistan or Bangladesh are, as it is more common to see people defecating or urinating in public in India than the other two countries.
James S
Pakistan has a caste problem in that it lacks a sufficient number of trader castes. As Aakar Patel points out, the partition of India was also a partition of castes. India’s economy is run by the trader caste. Take out the Baniyas and Marwaris and India too starts to resemble its poorer neighbors. Bangladesh suffered a horrific genocide merely 4 decades ago where the Pakistani state targeted not only its infrastructure, but also its intellectual class. India’s performance is not that impressive.
Is Bangladesh really worse off than Pakistan? The impression I get from BrownPundits is that it isn’t, but that site seems to have a disproportionate Pak-focus (Omar and Zachary Latif both originally hail from Pakistan, Razib from Bangladesh).
I have higher hopes for Bangladesh than I do for both India and Pakistan. The country has made some economic progress, microfinance has enabled capital to reach the hands of the rural communities. Unlike India and Pakistan which treat their rural populations like vermin, the Bangladeshi govt has made it a priority to invest in its rural population, including providing them with reliable electricity. THe country is chaos right now, but there is a future here.
“THe country is chaos right now, but there is a future here.”
Point. If Bangladesh could find a way to deal with the natural disasters every year, I am sure they’d be able to do better.
On a cultural level, I find the Bangalis far more civilised and respecting of other cultures as compared to the Hindu mainstream Indians.
Bengalis* Atheist Indian, even you got that wrong
Unfortunately I don’t really have high hopes for Bangladesh. It is an interesting place to test the effectiveness of social/healthcare programs. There is just so much ‘wrong’ that can’t ever be put ‘right’ in Bangladesh-
-From 1971 to 2009 the population has more than doubled from 71 million to 162.2 million- what economy or social model could EVER support that?
-Bangladesh is a festering, dank, steamy, water logged (& seasonally flooded) cesspool. The lack of sanitation + tropical climate+ over population= Cesspool of water/food/vector borne disease. Endemic diseases include (but are not limited to)- Typhoid, cholera, malaria, Giardiasis, amoebiasis, Cryptosporidium, leishmaniasis, elephantiasis, Japanese encephalitis, Dengue fever, tuberculosis, infectious E. coli, leptospirosis- (I could go on, but I think you get the idea that Bangladesh is the infectious disease capital of the world.) The rising temperatures associated with ‘climate change’ are only going to agonize this situation.
-Child malnutrition is the highest in the world- Around 66 % of Bangladeshi children are permanently mentally & physically stunted due to malnutrition. Malnutrition is passed on through generations as malnourished mothers give birth to malnourished children. According to UNICEF, one neonate dies in Bangladesh every three minutes. I don’t see any hope for a ‘democracy’ where 2/3′s of its citizenry are ‘mentally stunted’, whose votes are easily bought with cheap trinkets. The literacy rate in Bangladesh is 56.5%.
-Then there’s the ‘Hindu’ obsession with social & familial hierarchy which results in normalized dependency, learned helplessness, emphasis on elitism, low status of women, complete lack of empathy or consideration for others etc. I don’t think as a western person you can fully understand nor recognize how RIDICULOUSLY ‘hierarchical’ South Asia is until you’ve lived in a South Asian family.
Agreed with this, in my observations regardless of how arrogant, stupid, dumb, and non-sensical an older family member might be towards a younger/lower family member, the younger one, regardless of how much more able and intelligent, experienced he/she is, is not allowed to point those characteristics out; is not allowed to attest or prove his/her abilities independently, is not allowed to follow his/her own path, and also is not allowed to have his/her own opinions and ideas and break away from this hierarchy. Regardless of how damaging or childish behavior this older person might display towards a younger person in this hierarchy, objection in all forms is forbidden and shameful for no apparent reason regardless of the circumstances and the character of the older person. This is a society stuck in some primitive pre-medieval age that will probably not evolve or change.
Most of these idiotic South Asian people don’t even know how backwards and primitive their society is, why and what it is the result of or have the self-reflection and initiative for any real meaningful change to happen. Ironically this society is made this way PROBABLY because of outsiders such as the Aryans, Turks, Central Asian invaders, Afghans, Europeans, and Arabs imposing their will & power on them, taking away their riches, laughing at their misfortune/weakness and primitive society while setting up this hierarchy system to take advantage of these societal traits and their inherent inability and weak morally retarded insular characters. I still laugh at the stupid claims that South Asian muslims/Hindu’s have, that they are somehow connected to Arabs,Turks, etc, which is only a tiny percentage of them so they can feel accepted or feel like they are something else that they can pretend to be noble and identify with. Same with the other religions there because they hate themselves so much for what they are, it’s like a avoidance tactic. If you are one of these people I feel bad for you because you are a genetic phariah everywhere, you won’t be accepted anywhere hence you have this rigid social structure with unnecessary closeness that is a group survival mechanism on the basis that you will never take control/create something elsewhere or be fully accepted anywhere or by anyone else. You can’t realize new ideas, take risks, undertake exploration missions, invent new fantastical concepts or conceptions, be part of “big things”, build great big things, have great change or even have the energy to build huge great empires with penetrating ideas, produce “big” & “great” people, overtake/conquer other groups/great civilizations. Am I right about this Bibi & Dota?
India is a World of many micro races, people who look like Negroids, Australoids, Mongoloids, Caucasoids, and everyone in-between. It is atrue melting pot.
I can claim with certainity, we pure bred Brahmins with Thousands of Years of Vegetarianism, and Austere life are superiror to any person living or dead on this Planet at this moment. And it will copntinue for a while. Remember there are Brahmins and there are Real Brahmins.
Lindsay looks you got a Hinduvta, ban this guy before it gets too late.
Actually I think he’s just a troll.
Care to post an article about India’s diversity?
There are various Indian cultures, Einstein.
There is the Malyali culture, the Marathi culture, and then the culture in the Bovine belt( this bears the closest resemblance to Pakistani and Bangladeshi culture).
You, on the other hand didn’t wise up to this little detail and have been, for a long time, tarring 1.2 Billion people with the same brush.
Hindu fertility rates are actually lower than those of Muslims, if you want to compare the two religions, just take a look at the poverty rates in Indian Punjab to Pakistani Punjab, it is the deeply irrational Muslims that are responsible for the crappy leaders we’ve had to put up with.
Secondly, the best governed states in India is actually the right leaning states of Gujarat and Bihar, not the left wingers in Bengal that have run the most prosperous state in India down the Sewer.
I used to be a Producerist in my college days and I’d still be one were it not for the Affirmative action in Govt jobs in this country, you can’t run a decent bureaucracy where 85% of the posts are reserved for the so-called Backward castes, same goes for the state run hospitals, schools, etc.
Why no articles on Caste based reservation, Lindsey?
Hey, if you think I’m being too condescending towards the ‘underprivileged’ castes, feel free set aside 70% of college seats, Govt posts for less ‘unfortunate’(HA), then I’d love to see keep up this pro-welfare state rhethoric.
Us middle class Indians don’t have the vote, the rural masses do, they vote for crappy leaders, they deserve crappy leaders.
You’re banned, elephant jockey. Back to Bharat now. Take your patchouli oil with you.
“Secondly, the best governed states in India is actually the right leaning states of Gujarat and Bihar”
Bihar is the best governed state? Its a joke, right? If Bihar were to get independence today, it would beat Malawi to become the poorest and the most disorganised nation on earth.
“”“Secondly, the best governed states in India is actually the right leaning states of Gujarat and Bihar””
Wow…
I can’t believe I didn’t catch that the first time. Laloo Prasad Yadav’s backyard, really? gtfo Vikram
I guess Mr. Vikram’s idea of good governance is the typical Bihari worldview – the lower castes should be kept in their ‘rightful’ place as slaves of the upper castes, women should be considered and treated as cattles, rapes should be a socially accepted mating ritual (it is the woman’s fault, damn it!), goons should be gods and anyone who tries to make things more civilised should be either transferred out of Bihar or better, murdered.
The average Bihari would make Borat look like Charles de Gaulle.
‘Muslim culture has still given us some very wealthy and advanced socieites in the Gulf.’
Nothing to do with the oil, Robert?
‘A Hindu culture could never have created Dubai.’
I wouldn’t be quite so sure if the population was 1.4 million and they were sitting on so much oil money.
What about Mauritius? In 1961, Nobel prize winning economist James Meade wrote: “It is going to be a great achievement if [the country] can find productive employment for its population without a serious reduction in the existing standard of living….[T]he outlook for peaceful development is weak.” Mauritius had no exploitable natural resources. It gained independence in ’68 and has had 5% growth annually for the past 30 years. It has a diverse economy, a strong social safety net, free education and full democracy. Its 68% Hindu (another 27% are creole, mixed African and European).
I got this info from Joseph Stieglitz’s tribute to Mauritius (The Mauritius Miracle) but I also have some connections there. Here is the article:
http://www.project-syndicate.org/commentary/stiglitz136/English
I’m sure you could credit the French and British with some of it but a lot of the development and success has been since independence. They have also, like India, maintained a stable democracy.
So that I am no unfair to your side, I recommend for further consideration how the caste system might have weakened in Mauritius due to the particular circumstances on the Island or under colonial rule. Its a small island. I don’t know about this but I did get the impression from my Hindu Mauritian friends that caste wasn’t such a big deal there. They are definitely still religious though. They have temples and seemed to care about their religion. One of my friend’s grandfather’s was a priest.
Mauritius. Amazing. A Hindu society that is not a shithole.
I don’t think oil matters all that much. A Hindu country could have sat on all that oil, and would created Calcutta with it.
Correction: I think its 68% Indian origin, 50% Hindu. oops, but still…its something. I think a lot of the creoles are poor so take off their 27% and its mostly Hindu run. Maybe.
If you had a Hindu country with about 5 million people and enormous oil riches, I bet it would be as follows: a democracy with a good education system; a strong middle class with lots of professionals, scientists and engineers; a high nominal GDP with enough money and few enough people that the kind of poverty found in India doesn’t exist. They would easily be able to put in modern infrastructure. Its small enough that government social programmes could be fairly effective, even with plenty of corruption. There wouldn’t be lots of different regions with different languages, local revolts, very remote areas and villages. It wouldn’t be India. It would be a totally different ball game.
Put Indians in a different situation and you can’t take for granted they will recreate Calcutta. Indians are model immigrants in the west. They’ve done very well in Mauritius.
‘I don’t think oil matters all that much.’
It does in the middle east, clearly. They are all as wealthy as they are because of oil. That’s where most of the money comes from.
with that much money and a democratic government, plus a wealth of engineers and professionals, they would easily put in modern infrastructure and prove education for everyone. Immediately, a much different situation to India. do you doubt it? well, obviously you do
*provide
“It does in the middle east, clearly. They are all as wealthy as they are because of oil. That’s where most of the money comes from.”
What about the oil rich Assam? It is a state of India that turned from the 3rd wealthiest (before the advent of Hinduism) to one of the poorest today (after the advent of Hinduism).
Mauritians are moderate Hindus, like the Indians of Guyana. Not parampara obsessed Hindutva zealots of the state of Bihar, Karnataka or Gujarat.
OK, so moderate Hinduism is associated with civilized behavior and societies while Hindutva Hinduism is associated with the sickest, most evil, most fucked up shitholes of all humanity.
Well there is Swamiji Agnivesh, a social activist, Arya Samaj scholar, & founder of the Arya Sabha party.
http://www.swamiagnivesh.com/edward.htm
He’s always giving the Hindu nationalists Hell.
“The Hindu nationalists are desecrating India’s spiritual traditions.”
He also rejects his ‘orthodox Brahmin upbringing’ wih its priestism & casteism-
“I have not rung a bell or lit a candle or prayed to a deity since 1968,” says Swami Agnivesh. “Is God so weak that he will break his divine laws to intervene in your life and change it? Is God susceptible to flattery and to pleading and to begging? If you want to find God then, as Gandhi said, you must start with the lowest person on the lowest rung of the social ladder.”
I’m just looking at the stats for India:
Population: 1.17 billion
Middle class: 150 million (Mckinsey), 300 million (Deutsche Research).
NCAER say middle class population will reach 267 million in 5 years. And by 2025-26 the number of middle class households in India is likely to more than double from the 2015-16 levels to 113.8 million households or 547 million individuals.
what am I missing here? Seriously. Those figures aren’t of a country doomed by its culture to be a squalid economic lost cause. Those are very promising figures.
Poverty (yikes, get ready): 41.6% of the population is living below the new international poverty line of $1.25 (PPP) per day, down from 59.8% in 1981.
That is appalling, dire poverty but there’s been a significant reduction of about 18% from 30 years ago. There’s a 30 year trend of strong economic growth that is increasing the middle class and steadily reducing poverty, even if not nearly fast enough.
Enlighten me to your point of view, my Hindu bashing friends. I don’t get it from looking at those figures.
*just realized its not an 18% reduction. its 18% of the overall population less living below the poverty line. Its a larger % of the people that were living below the poverty line in ’81 that no longer are. So its been reduced by a larger than 18%.
Steve-
You wrote & I quote-
‘Enlighten me to your point of view, my Hindu bashing friends. I don’t get it from looking at those figures.’
Only too happy to oblige you my friend-
The 2011 Global Hunger Index (GHI) Report ranked India 15th, amongst leading countries with hunger situation. It also places India amongst the three countries where the GHI between 1996 and 2011 WENT UP from 22.9 to 23.7, while 78 out of the 81 developing countries studied, including Pakistan, Nepal, Bangladesh, Vietnam, Kenya, Nigeria, Myanmar, Uganda, Zimbabwe and Malawi, succeeded in improving hunger condition
The World Bank estimates that India is ranked 2nd in the world of the number of children suffering from malnutrition, after Bangladesh, where 47% of the children exhibit some degree of malnutrition.
The prevalence of underweight children in India is among the highest in the world, and is nearly double that of Sub-Saharan Africa with dire consequences for mobility, mortality, productivity and economic growth.
The UN estimates that 2.1 million Indian children die before reaching the age of 5 every year – four every minute – mostly from preventable illnesses such as diarrhea, typhoid, malaria, measles and pneumonia. Every day 1,000 Indian children in India die because of diarrhea alone.
Mera bharat mahan my ass!
As you can see ‘child welfare’ is NOT a priority in India.
Come visit us here in India, Steve.
Experience Incredible India!!!!
Just for thought; i wonder how many calories all those dead children add up to? Could not the Indian regime make food from this windfall? I t doesn’t seem too extreme?
thanks for the info Bibi. in what ways are the hunger and malnutrition problems in India related to culture?
I’m looking through a few websites on this and the low status of woman keeps coming up.
how can it be that India has a lower % of people living below the poverty line (both 1$ and 2$/day) than in many sub-saharan African countries, yet a higher % of the children are malnourished????? I mean, are the families not feeding their kids? I find that hard to believe but there are actually less extremely poor families in India but more malnourished kids…anybody wanna help me out with this? do they not understand what kids need? are they feeding them but not the right food?
Another thing I find curious is that the life expectancy is India is mid sixties and some sub Saharan African countries’ life expectancies are in the forties! Literacy rates are also twice as high as some African countries at 74%.
………………………………………………………………………………………..
I’ll just add some positive news that according to the WHO, both the number and percentage of malnourished (underweight) pre-school kids in south-central Asia (I guess this means what we call south Asia and probably includes Pakistan, right?) has been decreasing every five years since 1990 and this trend is projected to continue. For example, in 1990, 90 million pre-school kids were malnourished. The number in 2010 was 56 million. That’s a reduction from 49% to 29%, really significant achievements! This is also a time period where the population of India has increased by a few hundred million.
Also, although the hunger index score increased marginally from 1996 to 2010 (22.9 to 23.7), it decreased from 1990 to 2010 (30 to 23) and it decreased from 2001 to 2010 (24.1 to 23.7).
It does look like however bad the problems now, the future for India is quite positive. With the path that India are on now, there will probably come a time when there are no or very few underweight children, many hundreds of millions of people are middle class…..etc Who knows, maybe by the end of the century India will be the second richest country in the world after china. Its hard to predict anything on that timescale in human affairs but they have every right to have such a dream. It looks possible. And 100 years is not long compared to India’s long history.
There was a time when the squalor in English cities was sickening and unbelievable. In ‘the condition of the working class in England in 1844′ Engels described the terrible working conditions, the overcrowding, the dirt, the rampant disease, the child labour and treatment of children that would absolutely appall us today. A lot changes as the country develops.
I do wonder what an alien walking through Manchester in 1844 might have concluded about Christian culture.
Steve
“I do wonder what an alien walking through Manchester in 1844 might have concluded about Christian culture.”
Steve, the fundamental difference between Western culture and Hindu culture is that the former stems from the premise that people deserve better while the later rests on the premise that people deserve whatever they get, whether good or bad. Western cultures are self correcting (or at least they used to be) whereas the Indian is a passive receiver of culture. Indians do not question nor engage their culture, there is no debate except in intellectual and/or elitist circles. There is a certain linearity about Indian culture because traditionally culture flows from the Brahmin and then downwards. This linearity is the root cause for why Indian culture appears to be stagnant. Here’s an example of how stagnant Indian culture really is; an excerpt from Aakar Patel:
“”"When he was only 33, Thomas Macaulay began producing the Indian Penal Code. It has continued in more or less the same form for 175 years. It shows what a remarkably unchanging culture we are despite living amid the trappings of modernity. The code, a colonial set of laws, remains in force in free India. This is because an Englishman accurately assessed us, and predicted our behaviour and our reaction to external stimulus. This makes Macaulay a very great man. He could tell with confidence in 1837 how Gujaratis would go bestial in 2002. “”"
I wrote: ‘Also, although the hunger index score increased marginally from 1996 to 2010 (22.9 to 23.7), it decreased from 1990 to 2010 (30 to 23) and it decreased from 2001 to 2010 (24.1 to 23.7).’
Note that decreasing means improving the hunger condition.
Dota,
‘there is no debate except in intellectual and/or elitist circles’
Isn’t that always the case? When have the poor villagers or workers ever debated their culture? Its always the intellectuals, isn’t it? The poor people everywhere don’t question their culture, do they? In fact, it seems part of the human condition that most people don’t question their culture.
I’m a bit dubious about that quote. A quick look at the Wikipedia entry on Indian penal code:
‘It was drafted in 1860 and came into force in colonial India during the British Raj in 1862. It has since been amended several times and is now supplemented by other criminal provisions.’ !!!
‘The Code is universally acknowledged as a cogently drafted code, ahead of its time. It has substantially survived for over 150 years in several jurisdictions without major amendments*. Nicholas Phillips, Justice of Supreme Court of United Kingdom applauded the efficacy and relevance of IPC while commemorating 150 years of IPC. Modern crimes involving technology unheard of during Macaulay’s time fit easily within the Code mainly because of the broadness of the Code’s drafting.’
*not all? Just several?
‘In 2003, the Malimath Committee submitted its report recommending several far-reaching penal reforms including separation of investigation and prosecution (similar to the CPS in the UK) to streamline criminal justice system.[5]The essence of the report was a perceived need for shift from an adversarial to an inquisitorial criminal justice system, based on the Continental European systems.’
So, its a very broad, modern code, ahead of its time and that’s why it has lasted so long. Plus it looks like there have been ammendations and extra provisions and interpretations for new crimes… and its recently been reviewed with some major changes recommended.
what does this really tell you? India has a modern penal code. If it was Muslim it would probably be part or all sharia law by now.
‘the Indian is a passive receiver of culture’. I vaguely remember those words from somewhere…I dunno, it sounds like a colonial view of India or something.
Steve
“”Isn’t that always the case? When have the poor villagers or workers ever debated their culture? Its always the intellectuals, isn’t it?”"
Not really. Revolutions begin with the middle class. India’s middle class is retarded. Most of India’s greatest thinkers, philosophers, poets, and writers have over history been overwhelmingly Brahmin. This is not the case in the west. Paul was a tanner, a Jew, but a Hellenized one. Thales was poor. Joan of Arc was a peasant. Western culture promotes individualism and many of most remarkable westerners were not of the aristocracy or upper class.
As far as the Indian penal code is concerned, yes it has been amended, however it remains largely the same and even your source acknowledges that.
“”what does this really tell you? India has a modern penal code. If it was Muslim it would probably be part or all sharia law by now.”"
India’s penal code was drafted by foreigners, and not Indians. There is nothing indigenous about the system of law that governs Indians. If it weren’t for the Brits, we would still be stuck with the laws of Manu. FYI steve, Hindutwadis despise Lord Macaulay. So you cannot use the penal code to boast of the accomplishments of Indian culture. Invalid argument.
Dota,
” “”Isn’t that always the case? When have the poor villagers or workers ever debated their culture? Its always the intellectuals, isn’t it?””
Not really. Revolutions begin with the middle class. India’s middle class is retarded. Most of India’s greatest thinkers, philosophers, poets, and writers have over history been overwhelmingly Brahmin. This is not the case in the west. Paul was a tanner, a Jew, but a Hellenized one. Thales was poor. Joan of Arc was a peasant. Western culture promotes individualism and many of most remarkable westerners were not of the aristocracy or upper class. ”
How is India’s middle class retarded? Revolutions against the political leadership start with the middle class but that’s not quite the same as questioning the culture and India is already a democracy anyway.
Have all the writers and academics in India in the modern period, since independence, been Brahmin?
Let’s stay focused. The question is is it only the intellectuals who question the culture? Whatever class or caste the intellectuals- the philosophers and poets- are from, its still mostly the intellectuals who are analyzing and reflecting on the culture and writing about it. I think the more educated somebody is, the more likely they are to do that, in the west and in India. If you are poor and uneducated, wherever you are, you are probably just living your life within your culture.
I figure Indians are like people everywhere… they understand their social world, they more or less accept it, they operate in it and if they are educated or intellectually inclined they think about it more or are more likely to write about what they think. How do you know what average people are thinking about anyway?
“India’s penal code was drafted by foreigners, and not Indians. There is nothing indigenous about the system of law that governs Indians. If it weren’t for the Brits, we would still be stuck with the laws of Manu. FYI steve, Hindutwadis despise Lord Macaulay. So you cannot use the penal code to boast of the accomplishments of Indian culture. Invalid argument.”
If it weren’t for the west, Japan and China would probably still look like 200 years ago. Modern Japanese law is pretty much based on European law. So? India got it from Europe but they still have a modern penal code. Great. And they’ve successfully kept it for 150 years. That’s a good sign.
There are religious zealots everywhere. Modern law is in India to stay. It must have some support.
“How is India’s middle class retarded?”
It’s morally retarded, but I have stated before that Hinduism stresses duty (dharma) and not morality. A good segment of Gujarati society cheered the genocide of Gujarati Muslims in 2002. The Gujarati press was rife with such cheer, but this has never made its way into the western media. It’s more entertaining to watch Palestinians cheer the death of Americans on 9/11 instead. The spiritual and wizened Hindus could never resort to such behavior.
“Revolutions against the political leadership start with the middle class but that’s not quite the same as questioning the culture and India is already a democracy anyway. “”
Actually it is very much is. Thomas Hobbes, the father of Liberalism, drew his inspiration on a particular interpretation of the bible. In India this is still unthinkable as religion is exclusively the domain of the Brahmins. Traditionally so was education. In west, education is inclusive, in India its the opposite. Even today, certain castes have a hard time accessing education. They don’t call them them the OBCs (other backward castes) for nothing. For all its faults Islam at least acknowledges the equality of mankind and I can assure you that life in Malaysia and Iran (yes, Iran) are far more orderly, civilized and pleasant than life in India. India’s much hyped democracy is also a joke, vote bank politics, corruption ect… The act of voting is meaningless when the voter cannot fathom the significance of voting, ie its an act of empowerment.
“Modern law is in India to stay. It must have some support.”
Modern law exists on paper and not in practice. It could not outlaw caste, child marriages nor corruption. It doesn’t have nearly the support you think it does. You keep forgetting that 50% of India’s population is rural where such laws have little worth or enforcement.
Steve-
You wrote & I quote-
‘thanks for the info Bibi. in what ways are the hunger and malnutrition problems in India related to culture?’
‘I mean, are the families not feeding their kids? I find that hard to believe but there are actually less extremely poor families in India but more malnourished kids…anybody wanna help me out with this? do they not understand what kids need? are they feeding them but not the right food?’
I could write volumes on this.
Child welfare is not a priority in ‘Hinduized’ culture- suffering, helplessness, dependency, gender inequality are ‘normalized’ and accepted in Indian culture as ‘Dharmic’.
Even the children of wealthier families in India suffer surprisingly high rates of malnutrition. Government data show that a third of children from the wealthiest fifth of India’s population are malnourished. This is because of poor feeding practices (foremost among them a failure exclusively to breastfeed in the first six month) that play as big a role in India’s malnutrition rates as food shortages. The typical starchy diet of most Indians (mounds of unfortified white rice, potatoes, wheat flour, with lentils/dal) often contains few vegetables & little dairy or meat resulting in a lack of micronutrients.
The lack of sanitation increases this micronutrient deficiency- about 60% of the Indian population suffers some sort parasitic infestation (worms, amoebiasis, etc) resulting in iron defiency anemia. (I’ve frequently seen children in India playing with the worms in their stools)
Another of the major causes for malnutrition in India is gender inequality. Due to the low social status of Indian women, their diet often lacks in both quality and quantity.
China sharply reduced child malnutrition, and now just 7% of its children under 5yrs are underweight, a critical gauge of malnutrition. In India, by contrast, despite robust growth and good government intentions, the comparable number is 42.5 percent. India’s corrupt bureaucracy has only haltingly put in place relatively simple solutions- iodizing salt, iron & vitamin D fortification, or immunizing children against preventable diseases- to say nothing of its progress on the harder tasks, like changing what and how parents feed their children. India’s public expenditure on health remains low, and financing for child nutrition programs often remains unspent.
According to Somini Sengupta (the New Delhi Bureau Chief of The New York Times) – India runs the “largest child feeding program in the world,” she wrote, with a budget of $1.3 billion a year. But, “experts agree it is inadequately designed, and has made barely a dent in the ranks of sick children in the past 10 years.”
Dota,
okay, revolutions can involve challenging the culture. How would you say the Arab spring involved questioning the Arab culture, just out of interest? Egypt for example.
By the way, I know I tend to be critical of Islam and overall I probably am but I do respect certain aspects of Islam and some things about Muslim societies. Just so you know.
‘India’s much hyped democracy is also a joke, vote bank politics, corruption ect… The act of voting is meaningless when the voter cannot fathom the significance of voting, ie its an act of empowerment.’
Not in a position to comment at this time. You might argue the American political system is highly corrupt too though. I’d still rather that than a dictatorship. At least there is free speech, among other things.
‘Modern law exists on paper and not in practice. It could not outlaw caste, child marriages nor corruption. It doesn’t have nearly the support you think it does. You keep forgetting that 50% of India’s population is rural where such laws have little worth or enforcement.’
hmm I’m sure the first sentence must be an exaggeration. It could not outlaw caste and corruption etc but it is applied to all sorts of crimes. How many people are arrested and convicted every year for all crimes? They are all using the criminal code. Anyway, even if it didn’t apply at all in rural areas, which I’m sure is not 100% true, there are still half a billion people in urban areas.
thanks Bibi. Very informative answer!
I will just add, Dota, that although I think it is better to live in a democracy than a dictatorship and democratic societies are generally freer…the Chinese policy makers seem very competent and that does make me think twice about it. I will still affirm democracy in the end though.
That’s because a lot of it is bogus and made up so the country is “Ranked” at a certain level. That middle class you see? It was made on the stolen and outsourced jobs of Industries made by WHITE AMERICANS (Information technology), their entire economy is one giant bloated bubble and they leeched all that wealth off of other countries. All of that wealth was made by the transfer of jobs through outsourcing and global labor arbitrage for cheap labor purposes. Huge parts of Africa live below sub-saharan African standards. They can’t even run an international sporting event, did you hear about what happened when Indians tried to run the Asian games? The facilities failed, the roads weren’t even properly organized, everything stopped running, all the people that were running the event were bribed and they ran off when everything went haywire. Here is a list of companies that were ruined by Indians in overseas countries:
Adaptec – Indian CEO Subramanian Sundaresh fired.
AIG (signed outsourcing deal in 2007 in Europe with Accenture Indian frauds, collapsed in 2009)
AirBus (Qantas plane plunged 650 feet injuring passengers when its computer system written by India disengaged the auto-pilot).
Apple – R&D CLOSED in India in 2006.
Apple – Foreign guest worker “Helen” Hung Ma caused the disastrous MobileMe product rollout.
Australia’s National Australia Bank (Outsourced jobs to India in 2007, nationwide ATM and account failure in late 2010).
Bell Labs (Arun Netravalli took over, closed, turned into a shopping mall)
Boeing Dreamliner ES software (written by HCL, banned by FAA)
Bristol-Myers-Squibb (Trade Secrets and documents stolen in U.S. by Indian national guest worker)
Caymas – Startup run by Indian CEO, French director of dev, Chinese tech lead. Closed after 5 years of sucking VC out of America.
ComAir crew system run by 100% Indian IT workers caused the 12/25/05 U.S. airport shutdown when they used a short int instead of a long int
Dell – call center (closed in India because Premji’s conmen don’t even know how to use telephones, let alone computers)
Delta call centers (closed in India because Premji’s conmen don’t even know how to use telephones, let alone computers)
Fannie Mae- Hired large numbers of Indians, had to be bailed out. Indian logic bomb creator found guilty.
GM – Was booming in 2006, signed $300 million outsourcing deal with Wipro that same year, went bankrupt 3 years later
HSBC ATMs (software taken over by Indians, failed in 2006)
Intel Whitefield processor project (cancelled, Indian staff canned)
Lehman (Spectramind software bought by Wipro, ruined, trashed by Indian programmers)
Medicare – Defrauded by Indian national doctor Arun Sharma & wife in the U.S.
Microsoft – Employs over 35,000 H-1Bs. Stock used to be $100. Today it’s lucky to be over $25. Not to mention that Vista thing.
Microsoft – Lian Yang, Microsoft-Contracted Engineer, Arrested in Smuggling Plot After Another FBI Sting in Portland in 2010
MIT Media Lab Asia (canceled)
PeopleSoft (Taken over by Indians in 2000, collapsed).
Polycom – Former senior executive Sunil Bhalla charged with insider trading.
Qantas – See AirBus above
Quark (Alukah Kamar CEO, fired, lost 60% of its customers to Adobe because Indian-written QuarkExpress 6 was a failure)
Rolls Royce (Sent aircraft engine work to India in 2006, engines delayed for Boeing 787, and failed on at least 2 Quantas planes in 2010, cost Rolls $500m).
Skype (Madhu Yarlagadda fired)
State of Indiana $867 billion FAILED IBM project, IBM being sued
State of Texas failed IBM project.
Sun Micro (Taken over by Indian and Chinese workers in 2001, collapsed, has to be sold off to Oracle).
United – call center (closed in India because Premji’s conmen don’t even know how to use telephones, let alone computers)
Virgin Atlantic (software written in India caused cloud IT failure)
World Bank (Indian fraudsters BANNED for 3 years because they stole data).
That list mentions people from all over Asia and not just from South Asia. Plus, some items on the list are bogus. Blaming GM’s bankruptcy on a deal it signed with Wipro? Lunacy. Haven’t we been through this before?
‘That’s because a lot of it is bogus and made up so the country is “Ranked” at a certain level.’
Proof? A source?
‘It was made on the stolen and outsourced jobs of Industries made by WHITE AMERICANS (Information technology)… and they leeched all that wealth off of other countries.’
Slavery and colonialism were factors in WHITE European development.
Plus Indians have the expertise. A friend of mine did an MA in I.T. in a British uni and the majority of the people on his course were South Asian.
‘their economy is one giant bubble’
really? explain.
‘They can’t even run an international sporting event’
They held the Commonwealth games (which if you don’t know is like the Olympics but for Britain and the commonwealth nations) in 2010. There were all sorts of concerns about ineffectual planning, corruption, things still not built yet etc but they pulled it together in the end and it went smoothly.
No they didn’t run it smoothly it was a complete fucking disaster, nothing with smoothly. Stop reading bullshit propaganda by backwards, ugly Indians.
Indians have expertise? You must be joking because the only expertise they have is siphoning the wealth out of other people’s countries and work. Those IT classes must be filled with Indians because Indians companies forced under cheap labor laws to take classes there and make it more expensive for non-Indians to take those classes or they even replaces them under “white people are dumbz are not geniuses like Indians”.
@ Steve
I wouldn’t take Xera seriously if I were you. I have read some of her (or his?) posts around here and most of them seem to be reactionary rather than critical. Not unlike how anti-Americans blame every trouble in the world to Americans or how anti-Semites have it in for Jews.
His*
I must have worded it wrong, but if you ever knew about what is going on in the IT world or read about the abuse of H1B visas then anyone would agree with me or share my stance. Those games were an absolute disaster and Indian H1Bs in the U.S are not contributing to the U.S at all in any way shape or form. Their entire IT economy was based off the built up work of Americans (who actually created and invented IT), who’s jobs were outsourced because of global labor-arbitrage. I assure anyone that what I say is perfectly near-accurate and 100% serious, if I am critical or am being formal/serious then I am being serious not “reactionary”; or maybe that’s how it may seem to people who want to filter out reality.
One of the major factors driving outsourcing or the H1B regime is cheap labour. It doesn’t require a Ph.D. in economics to understand that going cheap doesn’t always offer the best quality. From my own experience with Indian IT and BPO folks, they are in the job just because these jobs were the easiest available as opposed to being in these jobs because they are highly skilled or love the work.
A lot of the points you mentioned are examples of bad business practices. I have seen a lot of delayed projects, bad quality products and poor customer support from American companies that have a strict ‘no outsource’ policy. Boeing’s Jeppesen navigation charts for South and South East Asia is one of the best examples of shoddy overpriced American products.
Face it, the US economy is a post-World War 2 economy built on the business principles which are no longer relevant today. The world is no longer a passive ‘market’ for US goods and services. Today there are countries outside the US that can offer better or more economical alternatives for almost every product or service that US could provide. Short of another World War or a global calamity, I don’t see things changing anytime soon.
The IT industry is not the only one sinking. Other industries which have very little to do with outsourcing are facing crunches as well.
There are a lot of failures in the Indian culture, society and traditions which would probably fill many books if discussed. But blaming every economic problem or business crunch in the United States on Asians is overdoing it. It is like blaming the Darfour genocide on United States.
I would agree with everything you just said except that it’s just not true. I know why exactly why there is outsourcing and I understand the business sense behind this. The Indian H1B’s so far don’t manage to produce their own code, they can’t do work or innovation at a level of caliber up to par with a home grown American worker or others. And as I have shown on the list that I have posted, which I am sure has been posted a million times already, they really don’t have a good track record of running companies or producing good products. If I had to choose H1B’s, I would choose to implement more South Korean workers, Japanese, Germans, Vietnamese, Russians, Brazillians, North Africans, Scandinavians, people from former Soviet bloc countries etc. Infact Scandinivia is an innovation hub of IT but I don’t see them coming over to the U.S trying to somehow take over American jobs or corporations by hi-jacking the political systems by race victim political correction tactics so it only benefits their country or their citizens and jobs of their own countries only; claim they are “geniuses” that Americans can never match, siphoning the wealth out of the U.S, or installing alien backwards separate cultures incompatible with large scale or Western civilizations which brings down this country leading to dysfunction. The aformentioned ethnicities don’t come own with their cultural baggage as Indians do, so I don’t understand why we have to bring so many of them given their history and their backwards culture that can fill “entire books” with how many problems it has.
Infact, the aformentioned ethnicties come from Industrializing or Industralized countries without backwards governments. So they will be less likely to carry societal differences & incompatible behavior. I also don’t see why there has to be the production of clear “efficient products”, when Americans consumers are the ones being damaged by this practice of overseas nation building or outsourcing; which also, instead of developing & augmenting the country to higher forms of society being outsourced to, installs a entity and machine like mindset that socially de-engineers the selected country.
If Indian H1Bs could innovate and produce their own code, India would have been running the IT industry, not the US. It doesn’t require Sherlock Holmes to figure out that Indian IT workers are just drones, not engineers.
If the US announces an H1B program for Scandinavians, Germans or professionals from any other industralised country, you won’t see them bee-lining for American jobs anytime soon. The pay scales and work culture of the US IT industry is not that attractive to people who are used to the privileges and comforts of the industralised world. If I were a Swedish, I wouldn’t want to be that geek that spends hours in a tiny cubicle, living on a meal of hamburgers and fries, coding my way to a salary of less than $100,000 a year. On that note, if the US opens an H1B program for airline pilots, you won’t see me lining up for a visa either.
I can understand how you feel about the issue though. I’d have been pissed off too, if I couldn’t get a job because of an influx of cheaper and low quality foreign workers. But face it, we are living in the 21st century, not 1950s. The world has changed and so have the perceptions of companies working in this world.
AI: Do you fly an airplane?
Yes. I fly Airbus A319s as a First Officer (co-pilot) in a regional airline.
Atheist Indian,
Since when was less than $100,000 a year, by which I assume you mean slightly less, not good? It makes me wonder how much money you make.
@ Car Guy
I was talking about computer engineers from the industralised world. A salary of $100,000 as a developer in Microsoft isn’t going to entice Mr. Filip Olessen to move from his comfortable socialist enclave of Gothenburg to Geektown in Northern California. It is however, a different matter for Mr. Raju Ramalingam from Chennai working his butt off as a senior developer in Tata Consultancy for peanuts. As far as Mr. Ramalingam in concerned, a $100,000 salary by Microsoft is a king’s ransom for working in (what he believes) the land of milk, honey and Girls Gone Wild.
If US corporations want to attract good foreign talent like they did in the 1950s, they need to stop being such greedy schmucks and pay their employees decent wages for a start. They also need to stop charging American people a bomb for basic products and services, so that American people are at least tempted to buy American, rather than look for more affordable alternatives made in India or China. And spend some public money in high school education, rather than siphoning it off fighting phantom enemies in the Middle East.
Xera
Are you the hyper retard of this forum? It definitely seems so. I saw the same post in Tunnel Rat’s blog a few days ago. While it is a waste of time commenting on all of these, a few examples:
“Microsoft – Employs over 35,000 H-1Bs. Stock used to be $100. Today it’s lucky to be over $25. Not to mention that Vista thing.”
http://www.google.com/finance?client=ob&q=NASDAQ:MSFT
You see it close to a 100 anywhere? For a brief period of time, it was hovering around the 60′s. Since then, it has been consistently around the 20s.
“PeopleSoft (Taken over by Indians in 2000, collapsed)”
A simple Google search revealed that it had been bought by Oracle which still is going strong.
“Apple – Foreign guest worker “Helen” Hung Ma caused the disastrous MobileMe product rollout.”
Ok so what? Whats your point here? Do you even read your own posts?
Also, India has a lower homicide rate than the United States and Yemen, apparently, and less than half that of Pakistan.
I am sure all those ‘honour’ killings, infanticide and bride burnings in the Hindutva states don’t find their way into the statistics.
India is an absolute shithole, and Indian culture has close to nothing worthy of emulation.
The only reason why so many white Americans see Indians as successful, upper class, etc, is because the vast majority of Indian immigrants and Indian Americans are highly selected.
They are part of a big brain drain, and are in no way representative of the general population of India.
The people of India deserve my drunken reply; Where else on earth can you see so much human suffering and filth that is tolerated by all levels of the local culture? Where else can you witness such massive pain and suffering and filth that is taken as day to day realities of life and yet is considered part of the culture that is India, therefore it must be right? I won’t go into Indian Stop& robs for these reasons here in country! They always smell bad due to lack of air-con and normal bathing schedules……
Most of the Indian immigrants to Britain were poor and often from villages. They pulled themselves up by their bootstraps, got factory jobs, bought houses, opened shops and restaurants, worked all the hours God sent, made sure their kids got a good education and now you constantly see Indian doctors, lawyers and engineers. The Indian ethnic group here earn more than the average income, more than the white income and have a lower crime rate. The Pakistani immigrants have not fared nearly so well.
@ Steve
That has been my observation as well, in Canada though, where I went to flying school. Even in India, people who drift towards medicine and engineering professions are from the middle class, rather than the elites. They have struggled to get to where they are, which is not easy in a country where every seat in a decent university has over 200 people fighting for it. The elites couldn’t be bothered, they’d either get their education from abroad or get a liberal arts degree in India instead (tainting the idea of liberal arts education in the process).
“The only reason why so many white Americans see Indians as successful, upper class, etc, is because the vast majority of Indian immigrants and Indian Americans are highly selected. ”
This is a load of B.S. Ever stand in line to get a US Visa? Every Indian that comes to the US gets in that way. They give the visas out quite randomly. In fact, until 2002, you did not even have to attend a personal interview. All you had to do was to drop in your application package and you’d either get it or would not. Note that majority of the Indian immigrants came to the US BEFORE 2002. However, they are not necessarily the creme de la creme as you imagine them to be. The ones from the IITs and NITs definitely are. However, they constitute barely 10-15% of the Indian immigrants. The rest of them are from other colleges who have been successful in the US mainly because of pressure from everywhere (including their families back in India) to succeed. They simply cannot enter the country and goof off.
Here is a “Highly Selected” Muslim immigrant for you.
http://uk.reuters.com/article/2010/05/04/uk-timessquare-evacuation-idUKTRE6410CK20100504
Aakash,
Oh, I get it now. It’s a joke!
Bay Area Guy suggestted that Indian immigrants are highly selected and you replied only 10-15% are from the better colleges and the remainder are from average colleges. In comparison to the US general population with 30% college educated, they only seem highly selected. I also missed the great line about “ever stand in line to get a US Visa?” contrasted with the subtle “you did not have to attend a personal interview”. Clever! The tip off was the use of the Pakistani Muslim as a stand-in for the Indian Hindu. Outstanding!
I thought you were making a serious argument initially. I guess you were just poking fun.
Bibi:
Are you a practicing physician in Nepal?
Howard,
Occasionally.
I’m organizing another ‘immunization trek’ for this November.
Weather, finances & politics permitting of course.
She has something like a PhD in Public Health. She’s a PhD, not an MD, unless I am mistaken.
Robert,
I am an MD/PhD.
Damn! Good for you. What the Hell are you doing in that Godforsaken part of the world with all those world class degrees?
ROBERT!!!
It isn’t “Godforsaken” in Nepal.
NEPAL= The land of Never Ending Peace And Love.
Great place to raise kids.
Where else could I send my children to a Tibetan Buddhist Montessori school run by a Swiss?
Bibi, a few years ago in Manchester I met an English woman who lived in Kathmandu and was involved with (maybe run, can’t remember) a dog charity there. She told me that the problem with stray dogs was really out of hand and the local authority dealt with it by poisoning some of the dogs. They were basically culling them in a really horrible way. The charity were sterilizing dogs instead and the local authority had let them take over some areas of the city. I think this was a pretty small, tight-knit organisation doing some pioneering work, so I just wondered if you had heard of them?
Steve,
Yes, as recently as 2005 the feral dog population was really out of control in Nepal. Nepalis often poisoned the dogs thinking there was no other option. The KAT Centre in Kathmandu is the only organization in Kathmandu I know of that fits your description-
http://katcentre.org.np/
Are you aware of any opportunities to medically volunteer in Nepal. The recent posts have made me acutely aware of my personal failure to fulfill my own moral duties. MSF requires a commitment of 9 months and I suppose at almost 60, I am unprepared to volunteer in areas of active armed conflict. Most of the other organizations seem to concentrate less on the medical and more on the tourist side. If you are aware of a group in the Nepal area that could use my skills effectively, please let me know.
Howard,
Like you said-’Most of the other organizations seem to concentrate less on the medical and more on the tourist side.’
That’s pretty much how it is in Nepal too. Usually you have to pay a fee to volunteer in Nepal, in addition to your own travel expenses. Most of the programs are very disorganized. Not much ‘medicine’ gets practiced, but they’ll be sure to take you on a trek or wildlife ‘safari’ where you’ll be encouraged to spend more money.
Are you ‘prepared’ for a high altitude trek (up to 18,000ft) of possibly 3 weeks in length?
I am prepared for effort and hardship, but not armed conflict. I was fantasizing about medical service in a land of beauty. It’s just a pipe dream I suppose. Perhaps, I will try South America. Thanks, anyway!
Nepal is a great country to live in if you have a decent education and skills to earn good money. If you are born an ethnic Nepali in the more impoverished regions of the country, things are not as lovely.
“OK, so moderate Hinduism is associated with civilized behavior and societies…”
Something like that. Hindu people, like the people of Islam, generally fare much better when they are free of the controls and traditions of their native lands. Both these religions have the same problems – they have an ancient value system that needs a serious upgrade. I am aware that there are a couple of reformist sects in both Hinduism and Islam, but they are yet to be as mainstream as secular Christianity or Judaism are.
What the hell happened to Guyanese Hindus?
To be honest, I have very little idea of how Guyana works. Never been to that part of the world and never met a Guyanese in real life. But from the bits and pieces of second hand information I have read online, Guyanese Hindus are a lot less obsessed with their religion and Indian traditions than mainstream Indians from the native land.
According to Wiki:
“During the indenture period, the East Indian caste system broke down. Hinduism was redefined, and caste-distinguishing practices were eliminated. Christian missionaries attempted to convert East Indians during the indenture period, beginning in 1852, but met with little success. The missionaries blamed the Brahmins for their failure: the Brahmins began administering spiritual rites to all Hindus regardless of caste once the Christian missionaries started proselytizing in the villages, hastening the breakdown of the caste system. ”
This is quite interesting and worth looking into.
@Atheist Indian and Car guy
Check out this paper on the disintegration of caste in Guyana. It’s quite illuminating. An excerpt:
“”One old woman told how she had set sail from Calcutta, and all on board
had started to cook dinner, each caste with its own hearth. Suddenly a
wave rocked the ship, all the cauldrons of food overturned onto the deck
together. It was a choice of eating food which had been mixed and
polluted, or of going hungry. “”"”
The hypothesis is that Indenture did away with caste segregation which led to the weakening of caste.
http://www.indocaribbeanheritage.com/content/view/24/45/
“A Hindu culture could never have created Dubai.”
Actually, it did.
Most of the buildings in Dubai were built by guest workers from the Indian subcontinent. These workers get treated poorly by their employers, who confiscate their passports and treat them like virtual slaves.
This is what Johann Hari has to say:
Right but the Arabs come up with all the designs and schematics of it.
No, the Arabs are not the ones behind those designs.
Its mostly Western people who design those buildings and some
sub-continentals too. Labor is also foreign.
Arabs generally are uneducated and don’t work.
They get free money from Government. That is why there are so many
foreign expatriates in the first place in most Gulf Arab countries, cause their own
people are not upto the mark.
Xera,
Are you uneducated & unemployed?
Sam speaks the truth. The Emiratis lack initiative and drive. The UAE is all about Oil wealth and their egalitarianism has more to do with Tribalism than bona fide socialism. Dubai is a very bad example of a progressive Muslim state because their entire economy was built on a neo-liberal bubble economics model. The wealth is generated by outsiders and then distributed evenly among members of the local tribes. Thomas Friedman loves Dubai, therefore every self respecting socialist should do the opposite. Socialism was an easier sell in the Levantine Arab states since these have historically been non tribal urban centers. Middle Income countries like Malaysia and Kazakhstan offer far more livable societies.
Correct that it is foreigners who are doing the work, and their economic model is such as well as the fact that they are too lazy to do anything themselves when they have the option of having other people do the work for them. However the idea of the Burj Dubai, the idea of the structural design, the idea of building a habitable city within a desert to become some gage point for traveling between two continents came from the Emirate Sheikhs & Sultans. Who despite their laziness, idleness, and for all the flaws and the set-up failure of a soon to explode bubble city, at least managed to conceive the actual idea, have the work done by other people, figured out a way to do it and execute a grand but eventually failed idea, that is the city of Dubai and the Emirate states. They have also managed to utilize their oil resources in a centralized manner, made Westerners and Western companies invest in them, and have used it for economical and political leverage for their own country and their allies.
Which is what I tried to get across, not making a claim on who was doing the work for them. What they did, I don’t think is possible within the minds and framework of sub-continentals and their Hinduized Indian culture.
Xera
I got your point, but I still feel that Dubai is a bad example. Dubai merely ripped of its economic model from Neo-Liberal Singapore. Everything, including their real estate industry, foreign capital strategies ect… Even Emirates Airline’s working model is an imitation of Singapore airlines and Cathay Pacific. If anything, Dubai is very much like India because the Hindus aren’t a very innovative bunch either (Brahmins are an exception). India’s neo-liberal reforms were pretty much a carbon copy of China’s. I’m not saying the other Arabs are as lethargic and indolent, I respect the Shami Arabs. I did a paper on the export strategies of Egyptian SMEs during my final year.
What is a good example Dota?
Xera,
Oh, sub-continentals and their Hinduized Indian culture is more than capable of
envisioning such ambitious urban projects. Have a look at this link on GIFT (Gujarat International Finance Tech City). It looks impressive.
http://crgp.stanford.edu/events/presentations/India/GIFT.pdf
They must have carbon copied it from somewhere
Well, the fact is non-Western countries are following and copying the West
in general as the West is the trend setter in today’s world.
The Arabs are no different. “They must have carbon copied it from somewhere” too!
Sam
It’s not just a matter of copying and pasting policies, but also about harmonizing a foreign idea/practice within the bounds of your society’s culture and mindset. East Asian countries have been particularly good at striking this balance whereas the Gulf Arabs and Indians have failed at it. Singapore might have implemented the Neo-Liberal model; however certain aspects of the country are decidedly socialist, like their housing and education programs. Yew understood that his country was going nowhere unless he invested in his people. Education has always been valued in traditional Chinese culture (thanks to Confucianism) and this jived with modernity. In India however, Neo-liberalism has caused a mess. It has let to rapid urbanization and thrust it on a population that has traditionally been rural AND segregated. With Neo-liberalism came income disparities as the shock of globalization threatened domestic cottage industries. These circumstances befell a culture that is ill equipped to handle the emerging issues of inequality and social injustice (especially since Hinduism sanctions them). The Chinese government anticipated such issues and took pro active steps in re-allocating their labour with their changing economic models. The Indians didn’t even bother.
Xera and Dota,
No use blaming Hinduism/Hindu culture for the failings of Bangladesh, Pakistan ect ect.
These countries are out and out Muslim countries. They don’t follow Hindu religion.
Hindu culture is based on its religion. The reason for the backwardness of these countries
is because of Islam itself.
Kinda wrong there buddy
Oh really??
What is the proof that the backwardness of these two countries is due to Hinduism?
There isn’t really anything Hindu about Pakistan and Bangladesh even if they are
proximate to India. If Islam isn’t a retarding force, then how come there is no
Muslim country in the top ten economies of the world, even with oil wealth.
India is at least the 9th biggest economy in the world and has an economy worth
1 trillion dollars. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_GDP_(nominal)
These societies (Pakistan/Bangladesh) have been Indian for 4000 years and independent for a few decades at most. They can change their religion, but cannot change their Hindu identity. Their worldviews, philosophies, outlook towards suffering, social structures and hierarchies, values, beliefs are all characteristically Hindu. Every time I read statements such as these I’m just amazed at how little Hindus know about their own history.
@ Dota
In many Hindu cultures, religion forms a central part of the socio-cultural identity, so they are unable to understand religion, nationality and culture as independant entities of a society. Jaipal’s argument is just a manifestation of this solipsism.
Very good point AI
I’ve frequently heard Desi Muslims claim that Islam is a culture by and in itself. Very few non Indian Muslims make such a statement from my experiance (Wahabis of all nationalities do however)
Dota,
When a person converts to Islam, there is a change in the behaviour pattern
and mentality of the convert gradually. A convert is always encouraged to
despise and hate his/her pre-Islamic heritage and avoid practising it.
In fact, they are supposed to destroy their heritage and consider it as “satanic”
or “Taghooti”. How then you can say that Pakistan and bangladesh are Hindu?
Dota,
The world-view of Pakistanis/Bangladeshis is to set up an Islamic Caliphate
spanning the entire World, in line with Islamic teachings.
Philosophies? Do Pakis/Bengalis follow Yoga, Advaita Vedanta and other Hindu
philosophies?? Do any of these Hindu philosophies have a place in their minds??
You talk about suffering, but Islam is highly fatalistic in its approach in the first
place as Muslims usually believe that whatever happens is due to Allah’s will and
not because of any human efforts. Islam doesn’t generate any sense of responsibility
because according to it, Allah/God is responsible for everything.
At Atheistic Indian,
Nationality, culture and religion are not necessarily mutually exclusive to each other
as you imagine. A nationality creates a particular culture and a particular culture
defines, gives shape and sustains a certain nationality. They are mutually reinforcing.
A nationality without any culture/identity is dead. What the soul is to the body,
is what culture/heritage is to the Nation/nationality. Sometimes a Culture can
be based on religious foundations, sometimes it may not be. It depends on the
country.
Jaipal, you’re a fucking idiot if you don’t see any difference between a Hijazi Arab, Persian, and a Desi Muslim. Completely different cultures. The fatalism that you talk about is a feature of desi Islam as it is influence by the fatalistic notion of Karma. In India Naseeb is basically Karma translated into an Islamic term. There is a huge difference between how Indian Muslims interpret the word Naseeb from its actual Arabic meaning. Historically there was a large Arab philosophical movement known as the Mutazalites (8th century) that rejected fatalism in favour of human action. A lot of Indian Muslims still practice the occupations of their former castes, like the Bohras, memons, Qasai ect… Their marriage rituals and lack of ethics is also characteristically Hindu. Hinduism doesn’t recognize morality. Read the Ramayan or the Panchatantra.
Dharma (obligation) > morality. Do some research instead of getting your info from the retarded Sangh Parivar.
Don’t forget Balkan, Turkish, Egyptian, or a Central Asian (Uzbek, Chechen, Hungarian) caucuases Muslims, who all have different identities and beliefs then your sub-continental Muslims. And I REALLY doubt they would really like sub-continental Muslims because of A) race, they would probably look down on those brown “Dravidian” Muslims short or tall B)probably would dislike their culture and mannerisms+food smell, accents, appearance C)easily distinguish them and put them on the lower category seeing as how irrelevent they’re part is in the actual Muslim world and socioeconomic status of their countries.
Honestly I don’t understand these Bangladeshi’s, the rest of the Muslim world puts them in the lower echelons unless they are a mixed race bunch. They’re country is absolute shit, they have the resouces to build blocks of apartments but they can’t for some insane reason figure out how to build dams, levi’s, windmills, roads, sidewalks, sewage pipes, power lines to deal with floods or the fact that they’re country is going to go underwater soon. They can’t seem to figure out things or have any ability of self-reflection, they can’t figure out that they are CC muslims, which means they are “lessers” in the Muslim world. They have the money for internet cellphones, Iphones, Ipads but can’t fucking spend that money on family parenting methods to control their massive population or malnutrition. If I do bring these things up, I am “offending” them or using “American culture terms”, BIG FUCKING HOO you entire race, culture and country is offensive to god. They have piss poor genetics which they could improve if they had the self reflective analytical ability to realize that fucking fact, figure out exercises & sports to improve that, come up with a better fucking diet etc jesus this is all commen sense; this common sense and logical reasoning seem to escape this fact because Islam was imposed on these poor fuckers for greedy power reasons and to cloack the fact that everything about them sucks.
Their entire Muslim culture was imposed on them by an Arab warlord taking everything away from them & made it to accomodate their retarded, backwards Hinduized backwards culture, and inability to question, fight back, create or figure out bigger things. But these poor fuckers would just live in denial, state they are morally superior to Americans & everyone else(LOOOOL) because of their “ancient” culture, think that the rest of the world owes them something while completely oblivious of a thing called the “outside world” and that there are countries without their people and their cultures with better countries, civilizations, and a track record of making the most with technology & resources.
Honestly it offends me that this place exists, where the people are so backwards, pathetic, ugly, greedy, stupid, short-sighted, and live in the shittiest culture and conditions of humanity, it is morally unacceptable for it to exist. To be born here or in this culture is a curse because Humans cannot live like this or have the torture & pain to live in such a backwards gruesome life which they can’t escape because of their fellow retards, and because they are unwelcome wherever they go. To be born in this cesspool is too be born in hell with chains attached to your body and that sears your body with pain wherever you go on earth, chains you can’t let go of, break anywhere on earth or if you have any wish to live in a heaven without chains or without the company of such lowly denizens.
@ Jaipal
As dota clearly pointed out, the idea of a global ummah, caliphate or muslim brotherhood is just a Wahhabi/Sangh Parivar/Islamophobic fantasy.
On that note, I actually had my Brahman ex-flatmate from Lucknow make a fool of himself by asking a Bosnian Muslim expat if she speaks Urdu. That is after he made a fool of himself by telling her, “You don’t look like a Muslim”, when she told him her name.
Xera-
What is a ‘cc muslim’?
Dota-
Add Kashmiri Muslims to your list of ‘Hinduized Muslims’. They follow caste & still practice several Hindu customs also.
@ BiBi
It’s a euphemism that stands for “conquered & converted”, in the muslim world. Usually these often refer to Indian/Pakistani/Indonesian muslims not the original Arabic, North African, Middle Eastern, Mediterrenean sea, Balkan, caucases, central Asian Muslims and these CC Muslims don’t seem to have a good reputation because of their cultures, hygiene, food, accents, mannerisms, socioeoconomy culture and of course most importantly, their “race”. The CC muslims are thought of as lessers because of that position given to their race, their socioeconomic status & backwardness, ignorance, sucking up tendencies, and also because of obvious reasons given in the manner they adopted this religion they are thought of as lesser backward, inferior, primitive Muslims by the top of the chain groups of the Islamic world. Again the euphemism and factors can be overcome by money, fame, great socioeconomic status or opposite/contradictory commonly held characteristics displayed by a person of a CC category.
@LoL JaiPal
Who built the Taj Mahal and conquered your pathetic Indian sub-continent ass? Who tried to civilize your backwards ugly Indian Hindu people before the British came and before you people were too idiotic and primitive to even form cohesive civilizations? Who pretty much gave you your medieval weapons, culture, history and pretty much everything modern at during that time? You should see quotes of those Muslim rulers/conquerers on what they had to say about your “Indians” & “great Hindu culture” who also had fun destroying and then taking over your ugly Hinduized people and civilization and dragging numbers of them back to North Africa in slave markets. Those light skinned Indian women you see on your precious Bowel movement-wood films? A sizable number of them are descendents of muslim conquests, breeding, rulers or are Muslims themselves (Pashtun, Afghan, Iranian, Arab etc), not ugly ass brown backwards slumdog Hindu’s, who I understand are ashamed of being who they are and use skin lightening products to look like them. Your people are too ugly that you hate yourselves as represented on Bollywood films. Please Jaipul you don’t know shit about Islam or the people of the Islamic world, go somewhere else & preach your great “bharat”.
I can’t quite figure out whose side your on Xera ^
@ Xera
Thank you for this really warped and self-serving essay. Indonesians weren’t conquered Muslims, they converted after proselysing by Arab traders. Never in the last 1000 years did Arabs conquer any part of South-East Asia. North Africans, Balkans and Caucasians weren’t ‘original Muslims’ but ‘Mamluks’ who submitted to Islam after being conquered by the Arabs. Tarun Durshun, a Turkish historian and ex-Muslim clergy, murdered by Islamists admitted that Turkey would have been far better off if Islamists never managed to conquer and convert the Turks. And to be fair, between the Middle Eastern and Indonesian/Malay cultures, the latter is the more civilised one.
@Dota
Xera seems to be the mirror image of Jaipal. Equally ignorant and equally self-serving.
“Add Kashmiri Muslims to your list of ‘Hinduized Muslims’. They follow caste & still practice several Hindu customs also.”
Is this something you have observed first hand, or is this something you have decided they are, because Kashmiris are ‘Indians’?
“”Is this something you have observed first hand, or is this something you have decided they are, because Kashmiris are ‘Indians’?”"
I don’t know a whole lot about Kashmir, but It’s quite plausible. I trust Bibi’s observations, she’s been quite fair so far.
@ Dota
I am not questioning her motives, but trying to rule out the possibility of confirmation bias. I have observed in some of her other posts, that she is rather prone to cognitive errors of judgement and quite stubbornly so.
AI & Dota-
This is something I have observed first hand, having lived with my Kashmiri Muslim in laws in Srinagar for 16 months. Caste is observed, various Hindu rituals are performed by Kashmiri Muslims from birth to death- ie the Mundana (child’s 1st haircut) to even having a Brahmin priest (Kashmiri Pandit) recite prayers at funerary functions.
For instance-When a cousin drowned in a river & the body did not surface in 3 days a Kashmiri Pandit priest was brought in to perform some sort of ‘spell’ to bring the body back- the priest went from room to room of the victim’s residence casting rice in the corners & reciting (something?). The body surfaced the next day & the appropriate deities were propitiated. (Kashmiri Muslims will usually deny this sort of thing takes place).
Xera-
There isn’t a lot of evidence that Kashmiri Muslims were ‘conquered & converted’. It is generally accepted fact that up to about the beginning of the 14th century the population of the valley was Hindu and Buddhist, and that about the middle and the end of the century the mass of the people were converted to Islam through the efforts of the Persian Islamic ‘preacher’ Shah-e- Hamdan. This led to a syncretic culture where Hindus and Muslims revered the same local saints and prayed at the same shrines.
AI-
You wrote & I quote-
“”Is this something you have observed first hand, or is this something you have decided they are, because Kashmiris are ‘Indians’?””
If you think Kashmiris are ‘Indians’ then you definitely suffer more ‘conformation bias’ & ‘cognitive errors of judgement’ than even I am capable of.
Try again.
Awwwwww my keyyboard is dying, I can’t play anymore.
Bibi
Interesting post. If what you say is true, I find it all very reassuring. Desi Islam might be primitive and superstitious (but it has still produced a higher culture in India such as music/shairi ect) but I’d take that over Wahabism any day. Atleast its indigenous. Certain Muslim communities converted from the trader caste (such as my own) still practice Hindu customs pertaining to inheritance and wills.
@ phatimabibibi
Interesting. If it is as you say, then perhaps Kashmiris are more Hinduised than I imagined. And by the way, Kashmiris are Indians, politically speaking. Their homeland is a part of the Republic of India and as you have just said, there are Kashmiri ‘pundits’ which would give them some kind of Hindustani lineage.
Divide the GDP of India with the population of 1 billion and you are left with just about 1400 dollars per person, comparable to that of Sudan and Ghana.
@ Jaipal
Religion and nationality, even when not mutually exclusive, are not synonymous. Islam as a religion, is a part of the Muslim identity, hence it has some influence on a person’s thoughts, values and approach to life. This is not too different from how medical or engineering education shapes a person’s thinking style a certain way that is different from people with a different educational background. In that call, saying that Pakistanis have an Islamic culture is a fallacy. The failings of Pakistan and Bangladesh are not primarily because of their Islamic character, but also because of their Hindu socio-political systems.
As for converts drifting towards radical Islam, perhaps it is their distaste for their native religious practices that drifted them to Islam in the first place. Kind of like how I am an atheist because I don’t believe in god, not that being an atheist stopped me from believing in god.
Dota,
You don’t understand the meaning of Karma. Karma is not fatalism as you are
claiming. Karma is basically defined as ” As you sow, so shall you reap”.
That is, you are responsible for your own actions and the consequences thereof,
whether good or bad. So, karma actually makes a person responsible as the person
is in charge of his/her own destiny. They can either make it or break it.
Islam on the other hand has no such holistic concept of responsibility. Everything
revolves around Allah/God’s will. I have heard Arab Muslims, Persian Muslims,
Turk Muslims along with Paki Muslims use expressions like “whatever Allah’s will
decides”.
Dota,
I know that an Arab, Persian or a Desi Muslim are different racially, geographically
and linguistically. But these differences among them are superficial as long as
they subscribe to Islam and consider themselves Muslims. For practical purposes,
much of their pre-Islamic cultures were destroyed and now they have nothing much
to cling to, except Islam, the culprit of their cultural humiliation.
At Atheistic Indian,
You are confusing Scientific education which encourages logical thinking/approaches
with a highly dogmatic belief system like Islam which is not logical nor encourages
a logical/ rational approach to life. Islam is based on faith. Also, maybe you are not
aware, but Islam is not simply a religion. It is also a political movement and a
comprehensive social system that dictates from how prayers are done to how you
clean your bum after defecation. Therefore, you can’t say that “Islam is only a part
of Muslim culture” thereby trying to trivialize the role of Islam in Muslim societies.
Muslim culture is Islam and Islam is Muslim culture!
At Atheistic Indian,
Are you sure Dota knows his religion properly??
Why don’t you go to a mosque and ask the Mullah/Imam there what is islam’s
purpose in this world? I can bet you my head that he will say:
“Islam’s purpose is to make the whole world submit to Sharia Law and acknowledge
Allah and his prophet as their life-breath. If they fail to do so, we will launch
never ending Jihad/holy war until they become humble and do the prayers
regularly and practise Islamic charity”!!
Robert
Nice blog.
This is an interesting article albeit a bit flawed. The flawed part is that you are treating Islam as an isolated religion that cannot be blamed on the failings of the local cultures that it comes into contact with. While there is some truth to that, the obvious flaw in your theory is that in almost every culture, Islam seems to elicit the worst, insane behavior in people. The shining example of this is Pakistan. If it had remained Hindu, it would be just another India. However, adding Islam to the local culture out there seems to have taken their insanity, hatred and violence to another level. Not only that, it seems to be fully justified in the Koran itself. It is too easy to Google or Wikipedia some of the crappy teachings of Islam and how the Pakis are utilizing that against the “infidels”. There is nothing “Hindu” about that. I’ll leave that for you to find out. Can’t be too hard.
Agree that Islam is more egalitarian than Hinduism though. So everybody practicing Islam is equally retarded.
“If it had remained Hindu, it would be just another India. However, adding Islam to the local culture out there seems to have taken their insanity, hatred and violence to another level.”
Bihar and Orissa, anyone?
Atheist Indian,
Why are people like you defending Islam???
Do you know what Islam prescribes for atheists like you??
It preaches that atheists are the biggest sinners because they deny God/Allah
and they should be killed. Basically, you will be sent to eternal Hell-fire and burn!!
Aakash
“”However, adding Islam to the local culture out there seems to have taken their insanity, hatred and violence to another level. “”
There’s something quite Hindu about that too Aakash bhai; remember the 2002 anti Muslim pogrom? Pakistan is indeed another India and its society functions along the lines of the Indian caste system too, you’ve got peasants (Punjabis), traders (Bohris, memons), and ‘Brahmins’ (Muslim intellectuals like Iqbal who were converted from the Brahmin caste). Now I suppose like 90% of the Hindus who drift here you’re going to justify anti-minority riots. None of the regulars here will be surprised; we’re already quite well acquainted with Hindu dharm on this blog. You can take that India shining garbage to Andyboy’s blog where it belongs.
@ Jaipal
As a 7th century religion founded by an illiterate Arab shepherd, a lot of Islamic theories and docrines are of course, outdated in light of 21st century science and philosophies. But again, Hinduism fares worse in this aspect, that it is founded in the BC era. If Islam is a 3.5 inch floppy disk, Hinduism is a punch card.
“…how you clean your bum after defecation”
Most civilised cultures in the world follow some kind of toilet hygiene to keep themselves clean. In most cultures of the world, water is used while some cultures of the world use toilet papers. Only someone from a culture with no concept of personal hygiene would look down on it as a bad thing.
“I can bet you my head that he will say”
Perhaps some radical, intolerant, crazed Mullah would. The majority of Mullahs are however, are to busy living their lives and dispensing their everyday religious duties to care about dominating the world.
“Why are people like you defending Islam?”
Actually, I am a critic of Islam. I have had a number of disagreements with Dota on the subject of whether Islam is compatible with the present day world. However, I am no Islamophobe. I see Islam just as it is, a religion with a set of codes, docrines and philosophies that are outdated and in need of some serious reformation. Not as an eternally evil cult that should evoke my fear or hatred.
“Basically, you will be sent to eternal Hell-fire and burn!!”
I wouldn’t sweat on it.
At Atheistic Indian,
You seem very confused as far as time factors go. Just because Hinduism goes back to
BC doesn’t mean that it is less advanced than Islam simply because it belongs to 700 AD!!
What a stupid logic. Lets take Buddhism for example which is from 500′s BC. Buddhism
has a far superior philosophy and outlook towards life than the Islam of 700 AD, which
as per your own admission was founded by an “illiterate Arab Sheperd”. Buddhism started
out as an offshoot of Hinduism. The founder, Siddhartha Gautam Buddha was a Hindu only.
Hinduism and Buddhism have a relevance in the 21 st century unlike Islam which is of no use
in our present time which even you accept.
At Atheistic Indian,
As far as the Mullahs are concerned, this is what they preach in their mosques
every Friday when Muslims congregate for Communal prayer. You have apparently
never stepped inside a Mosque, so you don’t know what they say. You are utterly
uninformed about their motives and plans to convert the whole world to their backward,
garbage, criminal ideology. You won’t understand now because you are complacent
and don’t feel the heat yet, but when the water is upto your neck, then you might
reconsider but it might be too late then! Please read the Quran and the Hadiths to
see what type of nonsense and joke of a belief system Islam really is. Educate yourself
man!!
At Atheistic Indian,
Islam cannot be reformed. You are living in a fools paradise expecting the impossible.
It won’t happen.
@ Jaipal
I have actually been to mosques in India, Uzbekistan and Kyrgzistan, just to see what happens there. Incognito of course. Islam is more of a nuisance than anything else, by keeping Muslims backwards in 7th century social and value systems. Given your ignorance on the subject, you should be the one visiting a mosque, rather than getting biased second hand information from RSS sources.
Siddhartha Gautam Buddha was a Nepali who founded Buddhism after his was disillusioned by Hinduism and its regressive practices. I don’t understand why Hindus piggyback on Buddhism to look better, given that Hinduism and Buddhism have divergent value systems, plus Buddhists were actually persecuted by ancient and middle age Hindus. Hinduism is not just a BC era religion, but a BC era religion with moral and value systems that actually disgusted a 700 BC prince enough to start his own, more updated religion.
Actually AI, as I’ve said before, I suspect that Gautam merely founded a new sect within Hinduism in the manner that Jesus founded a new sect within Judaism. In time Buddhism would go the way of Christianity and formally split from its parent religion. Nevertheless your point stands and for all intents and purposes the Hinduness of Gautam is as irrelevant as the Jewishness of Jesus (except in academic circles and such).
@ Atheisitic Indian,
Have you read the Quran completely, from cover to cover??
Have you read the biography of the Prophet, like the Sirat Rasul Allah
by Bin Ishaq???
If not, maybe you should! You’ll see the “Prophet” in his true colors.
Did you know that Muhammad married a 6 year old girl and bedded her at the age
of 9 years, all this happening before Aisha reached puberty?????
In other words, he was a Paedophile!!!!!
@ Jaipal
Yes Sherlock, I did. But I am not going to let the deeds of a 7th century Arab cult leader prejudice my view of Muslims today any more than I am going to let Manu Smiriti decide how I see Hindus.
Try to get to know some real world Muslim people and observe how they live. Getting an idea of Muslim life from literature or RSS propaganda is like trying to learn dating tips from a pornography film.
@Atheistic Indian,
The Muslims that you mentioned who live normal lives are NOT following their
religion at all. They are what is known as “bad Muslims” in Islamic Parlance.
To the degree that a Muslim doesn’t follow Islam, he/she will be sane and normal in their
basic behaviour. BUT when they take their religion seriously and try to follow and implement
Islam in their actual life , then you will see the HIDEOUS change that comes over them.
Implementing Islam means emulating the backward, barbaric and hateful teachings of
quran and imitating the behaviour pattern set by Muhammad the “prophet”!!
“Implementing Islam means emulating the backward, barbaric and hateful teachings…”
Like the hateful and barbaric teachings of Manu Smriti, you mean?
@atheistic Indian,
You are confused. Manu Smriti is just an opinion or viewpoint made by a thinker
that is NOT binding. You don’t have to agree with the view or expected to implement
it in actuality. For your information , there are other Smritis also out there.
So why do you keep banging on about Manu Smriti in a disproportionate manner??
However, the situation with Islam is totally different. Quran is supposed to be the Verbatim
word of “God” that has to be strictly followed. Muhammad’s behaviour and lifestyle
is the practical example of how Islam is in action and how it is to be implemented!
So Muslims are bound to follow Quran and the Sunnat of the “prophet” if they
want to go to heaven and avoid eternal Hell-fire, which they fear alot. So what are
the chances that they will implement the Sharia Law when they have political power
and the means of implementation?? About 99.99%!!
Don’t believe me? Have a look at Saudi Arabia, Afghanistan, Iran, Pakistan, ect.
@Atheistic Indian,
Whether Buddha was Indian or Nepali doesn’t matter. I said he was a Hindu which is
correct. Both, India and Nepal are Hindu nations.
Buddha was not disillusioned by Hinduism. He was more of a skeptic about whether
God existed or not. So he did meditation ( a Hindu practise) to discover the truth.
Based on his enlightened discoveries, he propagated his beliefs.
Buddha also made it clear that he had no intention of starting a new religion nor
was he interested in wanting followers. He was just a free thinker at best.
Also, he never denied Hinduism or sought its eradication.
So, you are mistaken in your understanding.
There’s something most Hindu’s choose to forget-
‘plus Buddhists were actually persecuted by ancient and middle age Hindus.’
Hindus weren’t very nice to Siddhartha Gautam Buddha while he was around either.
As a Muslim woman, what would you know about Buddhism, hmm..?
Your own “prophet” Muhammad considered women deficient in intelligence.
You seem to be a perfect example.
Hindus never persecuted Buddhists in Ancient or Medieval Indian history.
Even a Marxist historian like Romila Thapar has said openly that this never happened.
Its a BIG MYTH! You are utterly uninformed.
Xera
@February 24, 2012 at 4:15 PM
BiBi, CC Muslim,
“It’s a euphemism that stands for “conquered & converted”, in the muslim world. Usually these often refer to Indian/Pakistani/Indonesian muslims not the original Arabic, North African, Middle Eastern, Mediterrenean sea, Balkan, caucases, central Asian Muslims”. (Quote)
At Xera,
You are one fucked up fucktard I have seen that can’t get your facts right. You obviously
don’t know your own history. All the Muslim nationalities that you listed are in fact
“conquered and converted” Muslims only! What the fuck was Egypt before Amr Bin Al-Aas
invasion of your country?? Don’t you know that Egypt was not always an Arabic speaking
Islamic country before 800 AD at the very least?? You guys are not even Arabs at all in
reality but just conquered and converted Arabized slaves. This is the case also with the
entire Middle-east, Central Asia, Afghanistan, North Africa, Balkans, Lebanon ect.
First learn something and then come and talk shit. There is nothing like “original Muslim”
and “converted/conquered Muslim” dichotomy! So, Xera, you and your country are
nothing but “conquered and converted slaves” and you still very much are even today!
Islamic country
don’t know jack-shit about your own history.
Xera @February 24, 2012 at 4:15 PM
LoL JaiPal
“Who built the Taj Mahal and conquered your pathetic Indian sub-continent ass? Who tried to civilize your backwards ugly Indian Hindu people before the British came and before you people were too idiotic and primitive to even form cohesive civilizations?” (Quote)
@Xera,
You must be an idiot and utterly uninformed. Everything you said above is absolute
bullshit. But then this is typical of illiterate, half-breed, sand-for-brains
sand-nigger Bedouin Arab shits. The Taj Mahal was never made by Mughals.
Its a BIG MYTH. Shah Jahan simply acquired the building from its Hindu owner,
Raja Jai Singh, a Hindu King for the burial of his wife. Shah Jahan never made it.
Its a Hindu monument only. Here is the proof:
http://www.stephen-knapp.com/was_the_taj_mahal_a_vedic_temple.htm
http://www.stephen-knapp.com/an_architect_looks_at_the_taj_mahal_legend.htm
http://www.stephen-knapp.com/question_of_the_taj_mahal.htm
http://www.stephen-knapp.com/badshahnama.htm
http://www.stephen-knapp.com/taj_mahal_time_to_tell_the_truth.htm
The name itself is purely Indian also, not Muslim.
Who built the Taj Mahal and conquered your pathetic Indian sub-continent ass? Who tried to civilize your backwards ugly Indian Hindu people before the British came and before you people were too idiotic and primitive to even form cohesive civilizations?
Xera @February 24, 2012 at 4:15 PM
“Who built the Taj Mahal and conquered your pathetic Indian sub-continent ass? Who tried to civilize your backwards ugly Indian Hindu people before the British came and before you people were too idiotic and primitive to even form cohesive civilizations?” (Quote)
@ Xera,
Indian Hindu Kings successfully repulsed most Muslim attacks for 570 years, between
636 AD- 1206 AD. Eventually, the Turks did manage to break through around
1200 AD, BUT there were still HUNDREDS of Hindu kings who waged a War of Resistance
against the Muslim Invaders. The Hindu Kings had HUNDREDS of Battle victories
against the Muslim invaders which is proven by Epigraphs/inscriptions from that
period (ie. 1206 AD- 1500′s AD). The Mughals were defeated and vanquished by the
Marathas starting in the 1600 ‘s AD and completed the job by 1750 AD!
Maratha Victory over Mughals: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maratha_War_of_Independence
So we are winners unlike your inferior Egyptian race who couldn’t lift a finger to
fight Muslim invaders, whether Arab or Turk! We have more battle victories in a
century than your inferior Egyptian race could have in 5000 years! LOL.
Xera @February 24, 2012 at 4:15 PM said:
“Who tried to civilize your backwards ugly Indian Hindu people before the British came”
(Quote)
@ Xera,
LOL, keep dreaming camel jockey about never existing fairy tales.
For your information India was an economic superpower for 1500 years long
before your stone-age like Islamic shit came to our country.
Have a look at this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economic_history_of_India#GDP_estimate
“For the next 1500 years, India produced its classical civilizations and
during this period India is estimated to have had the largest economy of the ancient and medieval world between the 1st and 17th centuries AD, controlling between one third and one fourth of the world’s wealth up to the time of the Marathas”.
GDP estimate:
According to economic historian Angus Maddison in his book Contours of the world economy, 1-2030 AD: essays in macro-economic history, India had the world’s largest economy during the years 1 AD and 1000 AD.[7]
In the 18th century, Mughals were replaced by the Maratha Empire in much of India.
By this time India again had the largest economy in the world, with a (27.3%) share of world GDP, followed by Manchu China and Western Europe.[9]
Beat that you fucking sand-nigger shit!
Yay, classic Hindutva nonsense, the Taj was built by Hindus. I was wondering when he’d drop that bomb. Go on Jaipal, you’re doing great. Tell us that the Pre Islamic arabs were also Hindus. Tell us that Allah was originally Shiva.
@Dota,
I am not a member of RSS or any Hindu nationalist movement, believe it or not.
About the Taj Mahal, even I did not believe it initially that Taj was made by Hindus
because I too thought what the history books said was correct, namely Shah Jahan
made Taj Mahal. But the more I investigated and studied about the matter, keeping an
open mind, I realized that is not the case at all.
Have a look at BadShah Nama written by Ab dul Hamid Lahori, a contemporary chronicler
in Shah Jahan’s time. He clearly states that Shah Jahan acquired Raja Man Singh’s
palace for burial of Mumtaz. This palace had devolved onto his grandson, Raja Jai Singh
of Mewar.
@ Dota,
Just read those links I posted above about Taj Mahal to see where I am coming from
and do a little thinking about it. There is enough evidence in those links to warrant a
relook at the whole conventional belief on authorship of Taj Mahal.
So please read it at least.
“I am not a member of RSS or any Hindu nationalist movement, believe it or not.”
We’re got lots of man hating women who despise gender roles who also claim that they ”are not feminists.”
Thanks for speaking up tho. Now make a dignified exist before you get laughed off this forum, and I assure you, people are already laughing.
@ Dota,
I gave you a reference to consult. If I am lying, you can catch me.
Go and look up Bad Shah Nama by Abdul Hamid Lahori!
The answer is there
Xera @February 24, 2012 at 4:15 PM said:
“before you people were too idiotic and primitive to even form cohesive civilizations?” (Quote)
@Xera,
Oh really? Are you sure, dumbass??
Here is the extent of the Mauryan Empire. The Mauryan empire certainly ruled
from Afghanistan down to the South:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maurya_Empire
With an area of 5,000,000 km2, it was one of the world’s largest empires in its time, and the largest ever in the Indian subcontinent.
The Gupta Empire: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gupta_Empire
was an ancient Indian empire which existed approximately from 320 to 550 AD and covered much of the Indian Subcontinent.[1]
The Pala Empire: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pala_Empire
The Pāla Empire was an Indian imperial power, during the Classical period of India, that existed from 750–1174 AD.
Empire stretched from Assam and Utkala in the east, Kamboja (modern day Afghanistan) in the north-west and Deccan in the south.
The Maratha Empire: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maratha_Empire
was an Indian imperial power that existed from 1674 to 1818. At its peak, the empire covered much of South Asia, encompassing a territory of over 2.8 million km².
These Indian imperial powers were far bigger and more powerful than any dynasty
that Egypt had.
Xera @February 24, 2012 at 4:15 PM said:
“Who pretty much gave you your medieval weapons, culture, history and pretty much everything modern at during that time? You should see quotes of those Muslim rulers/conquerers on what they had to say about your “Indians” & “great Hindu culture” who also had fun destroying and then taking over your ugly Hinduized people and civilization and dragging numbers of them back to North Africa in slave markets. ” (Quote)
Xera,
Indian/hindu kings always had their own weapons of war. Indian kings were already
warring long before Islam even appeared on the scene. Chain-mail, for example,
was used by the Gupta emperors before it was adopted by Muslims. The so-called
“Damascus steel” which went into making swords in the Muslim world was actually
Indian Wootz steel that Indians used for their swords. Middle-eastern muslims
used to import the steel from India for making swords. So our weaponry in
medieval period was our own for the most part with only few inputs that are
negligible. Culture? India is a Hindu nation and always has been. Indians
don’t share any culture with Middle easterners. Our Indian culture is based on the
Ancient Vedic heritage rooted in Sanskrit language. We have our own classical
language and intellectual heritage that has nothing in common with Middle-east.
History?? India’s history is a Hindu history of Hindu Kingdoms/empires
and Hindu military resistance against any enemy that seeks to harm us.
As far as Islam is concerned, it has no constructive or definitive place in our
history except that it was an alien force which we fought against and finally
defeated. Its role is peripheral in our history.
We don’t give a shit about what the Muslim invaders thought about our Indian
people or Hindu religion as it is typical for enemies to talk bad about each other.
We fought them and considered them with absolute contempt as well. Thats what
enemies will do with one another in times of conflict, so doesn’t matter.
Muslim invaders hated the Hindus because the Hindus wouldn’t surrender and
accept Islam. They(ie. Hindus) only fought it. So what you accept???
As far as “having fun destroying and taking slaves”, well these things happen during
war time. Its called “Collateral Damage”. Since the war took place on Indian soil,
that could only be expected. Also, that is actually an indictement of Islam and simply
proves that Islam is actually BARBARISM in REALITY. So, thank you for stating that!
Proves my point all along. Slavery was practised by Islam in whichever land it had a
presence, so there is nothing unique about that as far as India is concerned.
Many of you Egyptians were taken as slaves and sold in Arabia in the early years
of Islamic Invasion of Egypt. The difference between Indians and Middle-Easterners
is that we kept fighting until we won but you Middle-eastern pussies gave up out of fear
and converted to Islam to save yourself! So there is no glory for you guys.
So shut your fucking Egyptian Arab trap!!
Xera @February 24, 2012 at 4:15 PM said:
“Those light skinned Indian women you see on your precious Bowel movement-wood films? A sizable number of them are descendents of muslim conquests, breeding, rulers or are Muslims themselves (Pashtun, Afghan, Iranian, Arab etc), not ugly ass brown backwards slumdog Hindu’s, who I understand are ashamed of being who they are and use skin lightening products to look like them. Your people are too ugly that you hate yourselves as represented on Bollywood films.” (Quote)
Xera,
All those “light skinned Indian women” happen to be HINDU and NOT Muslim.
Had there really been any large scale breeding, then the entire India should have
been a MUSLIM country long back. But that is obviously not the case.
If these light skin Indian women were descended from the Muslim invaders, then
they should have been MUSLIM. But no that is not the case. India is a Hindu
country and Hindus have no genetic connection with any alien Muslim.
Most of the alien Muslims and their descendants were killed off in the numerous wars
fought with Hindu Kings as well as due to internecine conflict among themselves!
Xera,
Northern Indians have always been lighter skinned. You can have a look at the
Brahmins for example ( a Hindu group). Lighter skin has nothing to do with Muslims.
Northerners tend to be lighter and genetics shows no connection to Middle-east or
Central Asian people. Therefore those Indian actresses are out and out pure Indians.
However, the same cannot be said for Middle-easterners in general.
The fact that you guys show European traits like blonde hair, blue eyes, white skin
in large numbers is likely due to the Greek, Roman and Byzantine occupation of your
region and subsequent race-mixing between you guys and your White Masters for
nearly 1000 years before Islamic invasion and conquest.
I’m always amazed at how little Hindus know of their own history and tradition. The anecdote that Atheist Indian posted sums it up nicely. Hindus generally believe that Muslim Indians come from another planet. The 2 nation theory is so deeply ingrained in their prejudiced minds. I’ve heard educated Indians talk nonsense about a “Muslim race.” What’s funny is that while Hindu chavanists try and distance themselves from their muslim countrymen by claiming the superiority of their tradition, most outsiders cannot tell them appart. Because outside of religion, they are essentially the same people with the same mannerisms, worldviews, philosophy ect…
Atheist Indian, I have an anecdote of my own. Some years ago my dad’s Brahmin friend remarked that Urdu was a foreign language. I was amazed. This man was an Engineer yet knew so little of his country’s history. Most average Egyptians and Persians I’ve ever met had some knowledge of their history and Pre Islamic heritage. I’ve never heard them bad mouth it either. In fact, they happen to be quite proud of it. Hindus know so very little, and what little they do know is often Hindutva garbage which is discredited in the west.
@Dota,
This “two nation theory” was initiated by Mohammad Ali Jinnah, who asked for
Pakistan, not the Hindus. Hindus know their history and do take pride.
The reason they consider Muslim Indians as Aliens is because they follow an
alien belief system that is not compatible with Hindu values and civilization outlook.
So, for practical purposes, Indian Muslims are in fact like aliens only!!
Look, you’re too much of an uneducated peasant and I can’t reason with you. I reccomend you enroll yourself into a western University and take a course in History. There’s no point discussing history or cultural anthropology with the likes of you since you’ve got a tendency to compartmentalize history (Most Hindutvadis do). Indian Muslims and Indian Hindus are like 2 turds in a toilet bowl. They might claim they are different from one another, but to the outside world, they are both worth flushing. Sit down, relax, and reflect on this over a glass of cow piss.
Dota,
I know history very well, unlike you. As a Muslim, tell me if you can,
what is the meaning of “Dar-Ul-Islam” and “Dar-Ul-Harb”???
Why does Islam divide the world into two hostile camps where Muslims are supposed to
do “Jihad/Holy war” against the “Kafirs/non-Muslims”???
Mohammad Ali Jinnah, was inspired by this Islamic mentality, sanctioned by the “Prophet”
Muhammad, when he asked for Pakistan.
So, do your homework before you talk about others. Like a typical Muslim, you’re just
too ashamed to admit that Islam is backwards and barbaric and its failings have to be sought
in some other source rather than itself!!
You might be able to memorize a few historical facts but like most Hindutvadis you lack the intellect to interpret them. Morons like you do not understand historical context, continuity, or cultural synthesis. Your knowledge of Islam is stuck in the 7th century and devoid of context. As I said, take a course in History, preferably from a Western University. Debating with you is like debating with a high school kid. Stick to number crunching and leave the liberal arts to those that are more intellectually inclined.
@ Dota,
LOL, is that all you can say?? Just do some character assasination on your
opponent and claim victory? Typical Muslim behaviour.
“Hindutva this, Hindutva that” like an infantile cunt.
Well, for your information, many Hindutva thinkers are quite intellectual in reality.
Far more than your Pseudo-Seculars and Marxist loonies that pass off as “scholars”
or “think-tanks” ect ect! Have you heard of the great thinker Sita Ram Goel??
I don’t think you could stand before him in a debate.
Dota
February 25, 2012 at 9:19 PM said: “Morons like you do not understand historical context, continuity, or cultural synthesis. Your knowledge of Islam is stuck in the 7th century and devoid of context.” (Quote)
@Dota,
Impressive. A bunch of empty words coming from an illiterate Muslim scumbag that is
trying to take baby-steps at appearing intellectual and scholarly, without realizing the
actual implications to your own religion!
It is not my knowledge that is stuck in the 7th century. It is your Quran and the Sunnat
of your “prophet” that is stuck in the 7th century! Why? because your own “prophet”
made it clear before he died that Islam cannot be reformed or changed after his death.
Innovation or “Bida’a” (in Arabic), is FORBIDDEN!!! Therefore, Islam is like a fossil.
You can’t change it and if you try you will be killed! If you are a Muslim, you have to
follow the Quran and Hadith. And these CANNOT be changed. So Islam is inherently,
unprogressive since it can’t change!!!
As a Muslim, you are pretty ignorant. Or maybe you are trying to deceive people here.
That is also permitted in Islam. Its called “Taqqiya” or deception.
Jaipal suffers from a desi psychological disorder known as ‘engineer’s sydrome’. An affliction common among Indian engineers, science graduates and statisticians, who get so overwhelmed by number and trivia that they lose the ability to think beyond rigid notions of facts and figures.
Symptoms of the disorder is characterised by a lack of creativity, lack of social skills, moral and cultural hypocrisy and a general tendency to blame the system, other people, minorities or anyone else but them for their personal, social and political problems.
For instance, while discussing the tendency to urinate and defeceate in public in the streets of Delhi, a Hindu friend of mine simply quipped “it is because of the Muslims”. He is also so socially challenged that inspite of his best efforts, he can’t get a girlfriend if his life depended on it and he believe that too is the problem with Muslims because apparently, Muslim men woo away Hindu girls using ‘love jihad’ tactics. He also rants and raves a lot about Christian evangelists trying to rob India of its culture, even though he went to a ‘convent school’ (a North Indian term for schools run by Christians).
Some of the best schools in India are run by Christians. St Xaviers, St Mary’s ect… I attended Christ Church in Mumbai for a couple of years.
So that’s wheere you get your propoganda from.
such as?
@Dota,
No wonder you are so confused about Islam and Hinduism.
You know nothing of either belief system but you keep yakking away.
@Atheistic Indian,
I am not an engineer by profession.
So, try again with your “psychoanalysis”, will you?
Score: Zero
That was supposed to be a sarcastic joke, dolt. Go on, argue with Xera instead. Both of you are on the same mental level and would make excellent debate opponents for each other.
Sorry Atheist Indian but at least please read some of the stuff that I wrote which you half assedly responded to without properly comprehending or reading it. It’s clear that you have mental deficiencies when you thought that I said North Africans were native Muslims where I never made that claim. I said they played a much more bigger part in a geographical way, in the construction of an Islamic culture & nation then anywhere/anyone else in the sub-continent, hence they are more part of it. Please don’t try to respond in a pompous idiotic condescending way or straight out deny things while you sweep details under the carpet with your “British English”. Also don’t try to fucking rationalize “Indian deficiencies” and then go on to claim it’s the side effects that everyone must tolerate and debate endlessly about based on the Indian culture being so “great”.
It seems as though you and Jaipul are somewhat cut from the same cloth, except in this case you are a twat that thinks he is too good because of “formal British English” and “foreign citizenship” then the Jaipul cut part of the cloth, when in reality you are both part of that dirty filthy cloth.
FYI, I don’t have a foreign citizenship and never applied for one. You see, my homeland is not a conservative religion hellhole that still lives in the glory of the 5th millenia BC. We maintained an enclave known as ‘Scotland of the East’ in spite of being colonised to be in a country that is run by cow piss drinking scums of the earth. So unlike yours truly, I have no motivation or intention to grab a US citizenship at the very first opportunity and once there, ramble about how the rest of the world is a ‘problem’.
I am not going to waste any more time trying to reason with you, Xera. You are too much of an ignorant, incoherent and prejudiced idiot for that sort of courtesy. The mirror image of the very people you hate, people like Jaipal and his band of Hindutva loony bins.
As the Scottish Nobel Laureate, G.B.Shaw quips, “Never argue with a fool, he will pull you down to his level and beat you with experience”.
@ Atheistic Indian,
I was being sarcastic only. Sorry you didn’t get it.
@Atheistic Indian,
You said it perfectly to Xera what I was about to say.
If Egyptians are so smart, then why is Egypt a shit-hole by Western and Middle-East
regional standards?? And what is this Egyptian-”American” doing meddling in
other countries’ shit when his own country is shit and needs fixing up!
The fact that he’s in America speaks volumes about his “aptitude” and “capacity”.
He would rather pontificate and bad-talk about other nations standing from America
rather than focus on his own’s country’s problems!
When I was studying in University, there was one Egyptian guy who said that everyone
in his country was desperately trying to escape from Egypt. And yet this moron, Xera, keeps
defending Islam and Islamic cesspools and probably desires to make Sharia “stone-age” law
supreme in America. Its a good indication of his “intelligence” and “reasoning” levels.
He doesn’t seem to understand that he’s in America in the first place ,since his country is
a cesspool and ISLAM is CAUSE for it!!!
Oh boy oh boy so much heat and inaccuracy packed in one single blog post, so I just want to clear things up in a compact manner.
Atheist Indian, I believe you are wrong on many of your claims. The Arabs did kill a bunch of South East Asians and even East Asians when they were expanding their empire (this is when Arabs came up with the concept of guns after discovering gun powder properties from the Chinese, something Hindu’s would never been able to do JaiPal). Look up Arab aggression and killings in South East Asia, because they did kill a bunch of them as they spread around the world. The Turks are not conquered & converted, that is false, the Arabs did take Turkish slaves who some of them became later known as the Mamluks (the Mamluks were not entirely Turkish or Turkish based, they were a mixed bunch of different slave groups in reality), but the Turks later re-conquered Anatolia, the Middle East & North Africa, TOOK & adopted an Arabic religion, Arabic customs, Arabic art and culture, along with various cultures of North Africa and former colonies of the Arabic empire. They formed (or tried to) a synthetic Turkic-Islamic middle Eastern culture that took various traits & characteristics from Islam & the conquered territories including Persian, North African, Arabic etc leading up to the culture and creation of the Ottoman Empire. As for the Central Asian Muslims, it is true they were also somewhat forcibly converted, however the manner in which Islam spread throughout the Central Asian states has its roots in the Turks and various Central Asian groups adopting it as well as the fact that Genghis Khan and his sons/descendants, & the various separate Mongol hordes absorbed/adopted it as a defacto religion to govern some of their hordes and separate territories, where it has remained ever since. Please stop using wikipedia for your only source Atheist Indian.
I guess I was not clear when I said conquered & converted, yes the Turks, North Africans, and various others were “forcibly converted”, the Arab themselves too are conquered and converted to an extent themselves. However, the regions and countries that I mentioned formed the original basis of an Islamic Middle synthetic sociopolitical religious culture and where the religion has it’s actual base both on a geographical, cultural, societal, political and even a racial basis then elsewhere. The newly & truly conquered South Asian/South East Asian Muslims are CC muslims because they don’t fit in and aren’t part of the Islamic socio-geographical political world that I mentioned, not to mention they are simply too different culturally, socially racially, geographically and the manner in which their conversions took place puts them in another category. Wheras those groups that I mentioned in the original groups have far in common with each other as far Islamic history goes.
@ Xera,
Many of the things you say is nothing but cock-and-bull stories to simply
hide the extent of your racial humiliation as an Egyptian. Maybe you are too
denationalized and deracinated to have any sense of your actual history, thanks to
Islam.
You don’t seem to understand that Egypt and other Middle-eastern countries, along
with the Turks ect, all had cultures/identites of their own that was DESTROYED
for practical purposes by the Arab invaders from Arabian Peninsula who INVADED,
CONQUERED,and forcibly CONVERTED the native populations EN MASSE!!
Because of that historical legacy, you guys are Muslims today. So, the basic point
stands that you guys are CONQUERED and CONVERTED MUSLIMS when you had
centuries of a PRE-ISLAMIC IDENTITY that was EXTINGUISHED!!!
@Xera,
Whatever commonalities you talk about among Middle-Easterners was due to a common
foreign imperialism forged originally by an alien people to conquer and dominate you
guys for their own needs. In other words, your commonalities are due to being under
a common slavery for some amount of time. But that does NOT negate the fact that
you guys had to be conquered first and dominated in order for these commonalities
to develop. But at what cost?? Namely the destruction of your national identity and
culture!!
Tell the Persians that they share anything in common with you Arabs or Turks for example
and they will SPIT on you!! Persians ,for example HATE Arabs ,for invading their
Persian empire and forcing them into Islam, even today. I know because I have
Persian friends. Also, the reason for Mongols attacking the Arab Caliphate is
because of brutality and forced conversions metted out to the Turks by the Arabs in
Central Asia. The Mongols and their Turkic brothers decided to take revenge
and shattered the Arab Caliphate! So you are wrong about the Turk and Mongols.
@Xera,
There is no difference between the converted status of present day Muslims,
whether Middle-eastern or not. All present day Muslims were slaves at one point
which facilitated the conversion in the first place. So, if you feel that there is a
difference between the status of Muslims, then it is just an indicator of your confusion
as far as identity goes. Your ancestors were never Muslims originally.
This is the case with every Muslim existing today. All of them were slaves at one point
and were forced to convert to Islam by the sword (ie. Saif-Al-Islam) at various times.
So, you really have nothing to be proud of.
Islam is one big slave enterprise that nets people into its trap and those who get trapped
obviously become Muslim. Nothing to be proud of. Its a humiliation.
As far as that goes, there is no difference between an Egyptian Muslim, Persian Muslim,
a Paki Muslim, Bangladeshi Muslim, Indonesian Muslim, Malay Muslim, Chinese Muslim,
Filipino Muslim ect. Enjoy your common slavery! Being a Muslim is a mark of slavery
on your forehead!
Blah Blah Blah Blah India sucks and Hindu sucks blah blah blah I know absolute shit about Islam but I read cheap internet articles with no fucking brain to analyze or interpret the evidence blah blah but I refuse to accept that Hinduism and Hindu people suck ass and really is a shit religion with shit people as evidenced by the epic shithole India where public defecating & urinating, drinking cow piss is accepted blah blah hasn’t done anything on a global basis blah blah in conclusion Indians and India is utter shit that likes to spread shit around the world that no one likes, blah blah the British & Muslims (much more advanced then Hinduism as evidenced by their civilizations) tried to somewhat civilize you but you guys were utter shit and too shitty to change your shitty culture & ways blah blah.
When will this Indiot Hinduvta denial of shitiness ever end.
Egypt is the biggest shit. You fagat Egyptians were owned for some 2000
plus years by every fucking invader that set foot in Egypt.
Even blacks?Nubians conquered your ass. Think about it.
Your ex-Premier Anwar Sadat, after going through Egypt’s history remarked sarcastically that he was the first genuine Egyptian to rule
Egypt in 2000 plus years!!! LOL.
Indians are far superior than fuckin Egyptians all the way.
“Atheist Indian, I believe you are wrong on many of your claims.”
According to the Muslim historian Sayyed Amir Arjomand (Encyclopedia of Islam and the Muslim World), Islam spread to Turkey during the Abbasid conquests. Most of the Turks submitted to Islam after they were invaded and conquered by the Abbasids, who took over Constantinople in collaboration with Turk tribals in the region.
Whereas in South East Asia, Islam spread via the Arab traders who have been trading in the region for eons. Most of the times, Islam became a state religion after the kings converted from traditional animist beliefs to Islam. (Richard C., British historian, Encyclopedia of Islam and the Muslim World).
“Look up Arab aggression and killings in South East Asia, because they did kill a bunch of them as they spread around the world.”
“Killing a bunch of South East Asians” is not the same thing as conquering Indonesians. Killing is easy, conquering takes work. Also, the Arabs never ‘spread around the world’. They conquered a few countries in their periphery before Chinggiz Khan, an East Asian conqueror squashed the Abbasid emperors.
“The Turks are not conquered & converted, that is false…”
And your source is?
“…because they don’t fit in and aren’t part of the Islamic socio-geographical political world that I mentioned.”
I am quite aware of that. But your reason given for the cultural dissonance is bullcrap. South East Asian muslims are misfits in your world because unlike your ancestors, they were never conquered by Arabs or Turks. They accepted Islam on their own terms, with their cultures totally intact and hence, didn’t develop the kind of Islamic character that is prevalent in your world.
Seriously, learn some history. Throwing a silly tantrum about my ‘formal pseudo-intellectual British English’ wouldn’t change history and make your fantasy version of history, a reality.
JaiPal
Honestly are you Hindu nationalists this dumb and stupid? The Taj Mahal was built by Hindu’s, right what kind of a moron are you? It was the Muslims who brought firearms/cannons to your subcontinent lol; yes of course the Indians had access to so much medieval weapons, which apparently sucked ass since the Muslims rolled over them completely. Only a few of them did not get conquered but then they weren’t “characteristically dravidian Hindu’s” either. Don’t forget it was those Arab sand niggers who came up with the concept of “guns” that them, the Turks, Mughals, and of course the British used to rule your guy’s asses, something Hindu’s failed to do in reverse. The reason why there are light skinned Indians is because of outsiders conquering your people which included Muslims. Most (if not all) of Bollywood are not Hindu’s but Muslims & outsiders, we already went over this. Parsis are also not brown Hindu’s.
Honestly another thing I don’t understand is why India didn’t build a gigantic naval fleet, sea power, exploration vessels to travel to China & Europe. India had the resources, right climate, access to clear sea ports and waterways to build a suitable friggin war fleet, merchant marine vessels, and ships to travel to far away places, but those Hindu’s couldn’t master basic exploration naval tech or come up with a concept of a war vessel. This is the greatest historical mark of failure involving Hindu culture right there folks.
Xera
February 26, 2012 at 8:47 PM said:
“JaiPal
Honestly are you Hindu nationalists this dumb and stupid? The Taj Mahal was built by Hindu’s, right what kind of a moron are you?” (Quote)
Xera,
I gave links which contain the evidence of Hindu Authorship of the Taj Mahal.
You don’t have to worry, those links were not written by any “Hindutvas”.
If your brave, read them and then come and talk with me. I cited a PRIMARY SOURCE,
namely the Bad Shah Nama of Abdul Hamid Lahori , a MUSLIM CHRONICLER
which mentions the Taj Mahal as a Hindu kings’s palace which Shah Jahan acquired
to bury his wife, Mumtaz!
For your benefit, since you seem to be infantile, here they are:
Its a Hindu monument only. Here is the proof:
http://www.stephen-knapp.com/was_the_taj_mahal_a_vedic_temple.htm
http://www.stephen-knapp.com/an_architect_looks_at_the_taj_mahal_legend.htm
http://www.stephen-knapp.com/question_of_the_taj_mahal.htm
http://www.stephen-knapp.com/badshahnama.htm
http://www.stephen-knapp.com/taj_mahal_time_to_tell_the_truth.htm
The name itself is purely Indian also, not Muslim.
Don’t chicken and just read it.
Xera
February 26, 2012 at 8:47 PM said:
“yes of course the Indians had access to so much medieval weapons, which apparently sucked ass since the Muslims rolled over them completely. Only a few of them did not get conquered but then they weren’t “characteristically dravidian Hindu’s” either. ” ( Quote)
@ Xera,
LOL, if you visit the Indian National Museum on Indian Arms and Armor, (Delhi)
there are nearly 7000 items on display going back all the way to the Pre-historic
period. Yes, we Indian Hindus had a lot of good weapons since we were able to
defeat the Turks in HUNDREDS of BATTLES and prevent the Delhi Sultanate from becoming
an empire. There are hundreds of such Hindu Inscriptions/Epigraphs from that period
(1206 AD-1500′s AD). You can have a look at Epigraphia Indica, a yearly journal
that is published in India. We rock. The Turks suffered miserably in their attempt to
conquer us which only failed.
As far as the Mughals go, we could fight and defeat them very easily even when
they had go strenght. Have a look at this:
The Mughals were defeated and vanquished by the
Marathas starting in the 1600 ‘s AD and completed the job by 1750 AD!
Maratha Victory over Mughals: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maratha_War_of_Independence
The Mughals were nothing before the mighty Marathas.
In the War nof 27 years (1680-1707 AD), the Marathas were 150 000 in number
whereas Mughals were 500 000 in number. Think 5 TIMES the size.
Guess who won?? Thats right, the Marathas!!
As far as the Brtish go, that was only because there were traitors collaborating with the British, but we managed to resist and throw them out, all by ourselves with our own efforts!
Xera
February 26, 2012 at 8:47 PM said:
“which apparently sucked ass since the Muslims rolled over them completely. Only a few of them did not get conquered but then they weren’t “characteristically dravidian Hindu’s” either. ”
(Quote)
@Xera,
The Muslim Invaders never had the entire country at all. They were present in only
SOME parts of the country, mostly in some cities. Thats about it. There were HUNDREDS
of Hindu Kings ruling across the country with their own kingdoms waging a War of Resistance
against the invaders. The Hindus had MANY VICTORIES. That is the reason why India
could not be converted into a Muslim country. Because Hindus fought and won.
The Indians fought a War of resistance against Muslim invaders, just like how the Spanish
did in Spain. This war lasted for a couple of centuries until both the Christian Spanish
and the Indian Hindus won in the final round! That is why neither country is Muslim!!
Xera
February 26, 2012 at 8:47 PM said:
“Don’t forget it was those Arab sand niggers who came up with the concept of “guns””
(Quote)
@Xera,
LOL, is that why your Arabs had their ass handed to them 30 TIMES by the Hindu Kings
of that time. (ie. 636 AD-950AD). Some 300 years!
Have a look at Arab Historians like Al-Biladuri ” Futuh ul-Buldan”.
He mentions the many defeats the Arab Muslims faced at the hands of Hindu Armies.
We were kicking your ass red-hot very nicely. Arabs failed to conquer India inspite
of trying for three hundred years!!!! We Indian Hindus rock!!
“”We were kicking your ass red-hot very nicely. Arabs failed to conquer India inspite”"
Xera is Egyptian. When did the Egyptians try and conquer India?
“”We Indian Hindus rock!!”"
Very true. 5000 years of civilization and half the population still craps out in the open. Even the Mesoamerican cultures built public outhouses for their runners.
Xera
February 26, 2012 at 8:47 PM said:
“The reason why there are light skinned Indians is because of outsiders conquering your people which included Muslims. Most (if not all) of Bollywood are not Hindu’s but Muslims & outsiders, we already went over this. Parsis are also not brown Hindu’s. ” (Quote)
@Xera,
I don’t think so pal! Northern Indians are HINDUS predominantly.
Hindus, because of their caste system, never mixed with any alien invader and certainly
not with any Muslim!! You can’t digest the fact that we have good looking people
in our race! Some Muslims in India, who are lighter skinned, is because some Upper
caste Hindus may have converted to Islam in the process. BUT even these guys
only marry among their own caste! So, even among Indian Muslims, there is a caste
system where they marry within their own caste! So, there is no place for any race-mixing.
We Indians have a far better sense of race consciousness than you fucking Middle-eastern
shits. You guys believe that marrying out is Good!
Xera
February 26, 2012 at 8:47 PM said:
“”I don’t understand is why India didn’t build a gigantic naval fleet, sea power, exploration vessels to travel to China & Europe. India had the resources, right climate, access to clear sea ports and waterways to build a suitable friggin war fleet, merchant marine vessels, and ships to travel to far away places, but those Hindu’s couldn’t master basic exploration naval tech or come up with a concept of a war vessel”" (Quote)
@Xera,
LOL LOL. You obviously know nothing about Indian history do you?
You are utterly uninformed about Indian maritime heritage which is a very old
and continous one. Have a look at this:
Indian Maritime History: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indian_maritime_history
Indian Maritime History:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indian_maritime_history
http://indiannavy.nic.in/maritime_history.htm
A lot of articles related to Indian history or current affairs in Wikipedia are usually made up stuff by Indian editors. For example, a Wikipedia pages on North East India often brush over the pre-1950s history of North East India to make India’s rule over the region less controversial. The pages on NE Indian insurgency makes it appear as if all ethno-nationalist movements in Assam, Manipur, Nagaland or Tripura are terrorist organisations.
@ Atheistic Indian,
I know you are trying to be diplomatic in your answers.
I know that Wikipedia is not the only source out there as far as
history is concerned. Nor is it 100 % reliable or accurate but it is
also not 100 % unreliable/false either!
Wiki is just a convenient place to get most of the information in one place.
So, it is helpful for quick reference to get an idea of a topic.
However, there are many citations from reliable sources on Wiki as well!
If you scroll down and look at the bottom of the page, there are sources
from which the citation(s) were made. If you are interested to read up on the
topic, you can do so.
Many of the topics on Indian history is correct and the Maritime information
that I gave above is correct because I have done my own research, independent of
Wiki. So my basic arguments are based on valid sources. Unless, you can prove
I’m wrong, no need to take your claim seriously.
You guys are so funny when you get worked up.
Whats your Nationality/ethnicity by the way, no offense intended?
@ Xera
Thank you for another long essay. While Wikipedia is not my only at least Wikipedia quotes some moderate to strongly credible citations. Your essays on the other hand, are like tuning into a faulty com radio.
@ Dota
The schools run by Christians are pretty much the only schools that instil a sense of discipline and ethics while also providing good education.
Yes Athiest Indian, because my essays on something related to me are much more informed and clearly more true then yours which doesn’t involve Wikipedia and a few other crappy sources? Please don’t show me the fake cheap pseudo knowledgeable guy act about things which you clearly don’t know much about that Indians tend to do ALWAYS w/ attempted formal British English, given how crappy everything about them are; that they also have to display & latch on to feel worth something about themselves, such with their “formal” English that was imposed on them and are thought of as a joke by everyone else.
Btw, I didn’t respond to that other claim of yours. Its not even efficient to even hire Indians in anything given their disastrous record, so it just didn’t make sense when you said that it’s more efficient for companies to hire overseas workers, specifically Indians. I don’t think you understand that hiring Indians is not even efficient to even produce anything. As for the Sweden thing, you clearly don’t understand about the mechanisms of off-shoring to different countries, as evidenced by your example on the guy from Sweden and you clearly don’t have a co-herant grasp on how these corporations work in these countries. There was off-shoring of IT to Sweden and different European countries (including FSU states), however they instead became hub houses of IT innovation and production along with many other boons, they had no trust or logistical issues, didn’t attempt to hurt American workers or cheat them in anyway or attempt to run billion dollar scams through call centers (an aspect of Indian off-shoring you never addressed). You also did the typical Indian tactic and method of picking few parts & fallacious examples, extrapolating that to form a generalized argument and then underhandedly shut everything else completely, because you never addressed the benefits of hiring Eastern European, Brazillian, Lebanese, South Korean, Japanese, Taiwanese, Arabic, Iraqi, Iranian, Vietnamese, Azerbaijani, Uzbek, Russian, Tunisian, Egyptian, Thai, Kazakh, Cyprot, South African, Chilean, Turkish, Nepali, Burmese, Polynesian, Colombian, Mongolian, Bolivians, Paraguayans, Palestinian, Jordanian, etc etc workers over hiring your great Indians; whom don’t live in socialized Gothenberg paradises and who also could benefit from mighty off-shoring, race guilt foreign entity installing cover manipulation wealth sucking tactics and actually produce/innovate something for their lives sake. Or the fact on how most of these Indian off-shoring is initiated by organizations such as Nasscom and involve underhanded bribery from your great Indian culture.
Oh I know, you are rationalizing imagined benefits of your great Indians and then using that to come up with a reason on why off-shoring to such a backwards, parasitical culture such as Indians is so beneficial to the global community and indeed America. Nevemind on other options or that it was Americans who came up with this technology, built the infrastructure for it, and are the primary consumers and main runners of this but are being hurt by outsourcing to a shitty ass culture & country and in turn are hurting the workforce of America at the benefit of a few wealth siphoning Indians that couldn’t build or come up with anything on their own if their lives depended on it. All that “growth” and “innovation” of India is just stolen wealth that Indians took, leeched off of other people in one form or another, accept that. It seems as though your reports and descriptions on problems with Indian culture that could fill books, but somehow doesn’t matter, is just a way to dismiss the backwardness of Indians with rationalizations of how those Indian characteristics are not relevant in regards to them or other people.
@ Xera
I speak formal British English because that is the only form of English that I have a reasonable fluency in. If you have a problem with it, you are free to talk to me in any of the other five languages that I speak. If you can speak in a language other than English, that is.
Your arguments in this blog always focus around stupid justifications for racism like “East Asians look like aliens” OR cheap shots someone’s style of language OR unfounded statements that North Africans are native Muslims while Indonesians are ‘conquered’. Your essays reek not only of ignorance, but an attempt to overshadow your bias and your ignorance with a cartload of words.
“Yes Athiest Indian, because my essays on something related to me are much more informed and clearly more true then yours which doesn’t involve Wikipedia and a few other crappy sources? ”
Yeah, because pulling comments out of your ass >>> Wikipedia. At least Wikipedia has SOME credibility while your arguments have nothing but your steadfast belief that your brain is a 100% certified credible source of information.
@Xera,
First fix your shithole of a country like Egypt before you talk about other nations,
and that too by running away to America and pontificating!
The world doesn’t revolve around you Arab sand niggers, ok? The world is a much bigger place
than your Middle-eastern sandbox.
You don’t like Hinduism? Thats too bad. Either put up or shut up!
As if Egypt is a Hi-fi nation. You guys are a joke and you are talking out of your
behind. Lol.
Haha.
@ JaiPal
I honestly can’t argue with you anymore given your stupidity and your failed realizations about how Hindu and Hindu culture is beyond shitty and sucks ass because if it were otherwise then Indian culture!=Public defecation, urination, cow piss drinking, destroying countries covertly and shitting, failed attempts at every technological endeavor and attempt, sub-saharan like conditions of poverty but live in denial of it, looting and leeching of wealth of other countries, I could go on and on.
Not only are you completely an idiot & wrong, but you got your facts wrong too. The Mongols wanting to avenge the Turks? What kind of a misinformed idiot are you? The Mongols were absolute barbarians equal to that of the most extremist Muslim conquerors, and they went in and massacred everyone that stood in their way, Muslim or not, they wanted to expand and run a gigantic empire hence they adopted & absorbed Islam for various contingents of their empire so the Khanate hordes would not disintegrate. They did the same in Russia, Central Asia, Eastern Europe, Caucuses, infact the Mongols are the reason why extremist Wahabist interpretations and ideological sects of Islam arose, but I bet that didn’t cross your Indiot mind did it? Please you don’t know the slightest shit about Islam or Islamic history except cheap Hinduvta Indiot sources; Did the Indiots and Hinduvta nationalists defacete those medieval artifacts of yours, vandalize and give false sources to show they don’t have an Islamic/foreign origin but a Hindu one, to downplay the shitiness and enternal crapiness of Indian culture going back all the way or how your country pursued failed communism for 40 years? I mean the Brits were pretty disgusted by the Hobbesian conditions and shitty stinky culture of you Hindiots not the Muslims on the other hand JaiPal. The culture sucked so much that they got rolled over by the Greeks, the Turks, and most importantly, the Muslims pretty quick.
Xera
February 27, 2012 at 8:37 AM said:
“@ JaiPal
I honestly can’t argue with you anymore given your stupidity and your failed realizations about how Hindu and Hindu culture is beyond shitty and sucks ass because if it were otherwise then Indian culture!” (Quote)
@Xera,
If Hindu religion/culture is shitty, then Islam is even shittier.
In Islam, you guys follow a paedophile as your life-breath!!
Your Muhammad “papa” bedded your Aisha “mama” and now we have
millions of Muslim dykes who think that Muhammad was a fuckin “prophet”.
Islam= Is Slime,
Muslims= More Slime
I Slam Islam!! Damn Allah, Muhammad too!!
Xera
February 27, 2012 at 8:37 AM said:
“cow piss drinking, destroying countries” (Quote)
@Xera,
What don’t you have a look into your own Islamic scriptures as far as
drinking urine goes? Your paedophile pirate of a “Prophet” actually prescribed
drinking Camels Urine as a panacea for many diseases!!
As far as destroying countries goes, Islam does a very good job with its Sharia
stone-age laws. No one can beat that! Your “Prophet” recommended destroying
other nations, peoples and cultures. So, Muslims are the ones destroying countries,
not Hindus! Have a look at Afghanistan under Taliban!!
Xera
February 27, 2012 at 8:37 AM said:
“failed attempts at every technological endeavor and attempt, sub-saharan like conditions of poverty but live in denial of it, looting and leeching of wealth of other countries, I could go on and on. ” (Quote)
@Xera,
Oh really? Just 4 years back we sent a mooncraft to the moon, our first moon mission
in 2008 AD. What the fuck did you Egyptians do in that year comparable to what
we did??? As far as looting goes, Islam is the one that loots from countries.
Have a look at your Quran, there is a chapter called “Booty Surah” which describes
how to divide the looted spoils from a raid!
Xera
February 27, 2012 at 8:37 AM said: “Mongols and Turks… Wahhabi interpretation….”
(Quote)
@Xera,
You don’t know any history at all. The Mongols and Turks are related people.
They are Altaic peoples only. The Mongols were basically Buddhists and they
were not always blood-thirsty barbarians as you imagine. There is no history
of Mongols expanding the way they did prior to Genghis Khan. They were largely
peaceful.
Arab-Islamic expansion in Central Asia and their brutalities are what caused the Mongol
catacylsm to happen in the first place. Go look it up!!
Genghis Khan hated Muslims and slaughtered any Muslim he found. He destroyed
Mosques and built Buddhist Temples over them! His descendants eventually did
accept Islam, so yeah so what? It doesn’t change the reason for the attack in the
first place!!
@Xera,
Wahabbi interpretations of Islam has nothing to do with the Mongols.
The Wahabbis intention was to purify Islam of any additions and distortions that had
crept up over the several centuries and restore the “prophetic” version of Islam.
I am sorry ,Xera ,for your delusions.
As far as the last part of your above comment is concerned, no, the Macedonians faced a
very stiff battle with the Indians which is admitted by their own historians.
The Macedonians mutinied and wanted to go back when they heard of the might
of the Indian Nanda dynasty. The Indian Mauryan dynasty defeated the Macedonian
garrisons left behind by Alexander and also repelled a Seleucid attack by Seleucus
Nicator the first! The Seleucids were a major power in the Middle-east at the time.
The Bactrian Greeks were also kept in check by the Sunga Emperors like
Pushyamitra Sunga!
I told you already that the Arabs were systematically defeated by the Hindu Armies
of the time (636 AD-950 AD). The Arabs utterly failed even after trying for 300
years to defeat India!! Think about it. As far as the Turks are concerned,
the Hindu Armies resisted them as well and inflicted Hundreds of defeats on them
and foiled their plan to build an empire. The Mughals were easily vanquished
by the Marathas starting in 1640 AD – 1760 AD! Go look up these historical
facts if you are not to sure!
* For example, Wikipedia pages. Not ‘For example, a Wikipedia pages ‘.
Oh yeah, I KNEW that the Hindutva crazies would come back at some point!
This blog is always blessed with amusing fanatics.
It’s either Andyboy and his hasbara, or Jaipal and his Hindutva.
Love it!
I love it too! Love the nationalist crazies! Woohoo!
So whats your take on JaiPal’s assumption on how the Mughals were inferior sand niggers that didn’t build the Taj Mahal or attempted to bring order in their conquered territories of India and godsmacked by the superiority of Indians & Hindu culture Lindsay?
Xera,
I’ve found your intellectual match. Right here boy.
GFRRRRRRRRRR GRRRR East Asians ARggggfphhhh Grrrrrrrrrrrrrr Snortttgggg Huff Hufff Indians grrrrrrrrrrrrrr woooff wooooof GRRRRRRRRR. GRRRRRRRRRRRRRR Woof woooff Genghis Khan GRRRRRR Pakistan gGRR wooof wooof, Jews GRRRRRRRRRR GRRRRRR GRRRRRRRRRRRR WOOOOOFF WOOOOFF Egypt ARKKK ARK ARK Clap Clap Clap ARK ARK
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http://memegenerator.net/instance/15317719?urlName=Asian-Troll-Face&browsingOrder=New&browsingTimeSpan=AllTime
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I knew you would come back one day Hacienda
@Xera,
Stop being such a fuckin mental pussy. You sound like you are
crying! Pathetic shit you are.
I gave you links ,as far as the Taj Mahal and Mughal defeat at the
hands of the Marathas, are concerned.
So go read them and enlighten yourself!
Don’t forget Huax!!! I wonder where him, fy3p, and Sen went after that debacle we had on whether Sumerians were East Asians.
i don’t know how Robert does it, but he really does attract a lot of Hinutvadis here. But you must also understand that like zionists, Hindutva trolls actively patrol the net and destroy forums. They constantly monitor wiki too. Hindutvadis and zionist trolls work together online. I had read somewhere that when Hinduunity.org was taken down for promoting extreme hate, it was back up on Kahane.org’s server. The website tries to make certain overtures to the sikhs, but the latter aren’t stupid and realize the menace posed to the Sikh religion by Hindus who are trying to saffron their faith. This is how one sikh website responds to Hindutva’s friendship:
http://www.sikhlionz.com/lionzsection1.htm
“They constantly monitor wiki too.”
I noticed that. They are extra-ordinarily active on Wikipedia. I would correct something, quoting valid citations and a few minutes later, it would all be edited back to the Hindutva-friendly page.
Bay Area Guy,
I just want to ask you one question, if you don’t mind?
Your picture on the right of your reply, is that you in actual
reality? No offence intended.
That’s Joe Pesci in his avatar O enlightened Swamiji
ROFL
Wow, that’s the second commenter here who’s gotten that wrong!
@ Bay Area Guy,
Sorry I don’t know much about American culture.
And frankly, who is this Joe Pesci?
Ha Ha oh my god this is too funny ha ha ha!!!
@Xera,
Was I talking to you, bitch?? Did I aim that post at you??
So just shut the fuck up you Arab sand nigger.
Or I’ll just have to kick your ass so hard that your rectum will bounce out of your mouth.
We’ll see who’s laughing then. LOL.
Man, despite the fact I’m getting a bit of an education about how Hindus and Muslims feel about each other, the insults and racial pejoratives are pathetic. Feeling angry is one thing, but when you lack such control over your emotions that you cease to be able to make an objective point without fatuous invective and flat-out jingoistic remarks, you lose credibility. The two of you just wind up sounding like completely juvenile assholes, Xera and Jai-Pal.
Richard Richard, don’t equate me for a nationalist evil asshole that Jai Pal represents, the only reason I am acting the way that I am is because these people ellicited this response from me, it’s just a natural reaction. You obviously haven’t read Robert Lindsay’s posts on India and it’s culture, haven’t dealt with many Indians in real life (the majority ones, not the rare decent ones here in the West) or have been to India or countries near it (Bangladesh), to know why Indian culture and Indian people is shitty and is a cancer upon the human race. I could care less about Indians and their shitiness, because I am Egyptian however this place and culture that I had the uncanny displeasure of observing and visiting had offended & disgusted me beyond words, because of seeing Indian culture in real life.
The person you mentioned? He is part of the problem of that country and most upper tier Indian/Pakis mimic the same behavior that sucks all the wealth out of there so the majority are “peasant like” so he could buy fancy suits, cigars, champaigns, have American friends so he could feel better about himself and think he is something else other then what he really is. That is a typical Hinduized, sub-continental, behavior pattern common even among Paki’s and Indians to an extent, and every single one of them would grab the chance to be in his position and have the exact same views as him if they had the privilege of doing so, this is what these people from there represent and aspire to have. The Arabs treat them (sub-continentals) the way they do is because they know this behavior pattern, they know them, they know exactly what those people are, represent, what their intentions are, their hatred & self-loathing for themselves, their CC muslim status, and how their minds work, so they are basically treating that person as he should be treated basically, that’s why he said they were “crazy assholes”
@Xera,
You started this nonsense of blaming the failures of a MUSLIM country on
HINDU religion and culture. If you start a fire, be prepared to get BURNED!!
Cut the shit short of playing victim and take some responsibility for MUSLIM
FAILURES which are obviously rooted in your fucking cult called ASS-LAM
(ie Islam)!! Rather than blaming others for your failures, could it be that there
is something wrong with your fuckin faith for once???!!!
Though I can’t be absolutely, 100% sure, I am reasonably sure that hmy former Bengali employer’s feelings that Arabs are crazy fucking assholes isn’t because he was singled out for being from Bangladesh, but that they had more to do with his revulsion at their self-righteousness and fanaticism, their blind hatred for all things non-Muslim. You can’t tell me that Saudis are “moderates” and “tolerant” with a straight face (he was in Mecca, remember). Personally, as a product and member of western culture, I find both Hindu and Muslim cultures backward, ignorant, hostile and reprehensible in most discernible ways, so to me the argument between the two of you is akin to two dung beetles arguing over which one smells more of shit than the other. Fortunately, it is my culture which is dominant on this planet and not either of your misogynistic, self-righteous, closed-minded, violent cultures. Muslim culture is well-past its heyday as postive force on the planet. The days of the enlightened, cxosmopolitan, tolerant rule of Muslims in what is now Spain are, sadly, all but very dim memories. Your culture has become synonymous with hatred, violence, persecution, closed-mindedness, ignorance and prejudice. The Hindus, for their part, have done the world a favour and kept their negative idiosyncracies sequestered within the confines of their own countries. As far as I know, there is no Hindi equivalent for the word “jihad”, nor do they run around blowing themselves up along with innocent people who have done nothing to them. I suppose you’ll retort that the only reasons Hindus didn’t commit the 9/11 atrocities is that they’re too lazy and stupid. And how about the Egyptian military’s slaughter of Christian protesters? Is that also a sign of the superiority of Muslim culture? A culture that is obviously so insecure in its own validity that its only response to a differing viewpoint is violence and murder? Yet, for all their noise about how they have Allah on their side, they scream like babies when someone publishes an unflattering cartoon of Mohammed. If your culture is so obviously strong and mandated by Heaven, why is it that you have to murder anyone who makes fun of you and try to hide behind the skirts of the governments in the western countries to which you’ve emigrated? Just a word of advice: In the eyes of most of the (civilised) world, as a Muslim, you have very little credibility and sympathy is something which your people have not earned. Stop trying so hard to “be a Muslim” and try harder just to be good, decent members of the world community. Like Ferdous. You could learn alot from him.
and who’s behind this jihad? You think muslims text Al Qaeda and suggest targets? Jihad on demand? Doesn’t work that way son. If you think the Muslim community is a homogenous entity then you’re no better than the Hindutvadis.
“”And how about the Egyptian military’s slaughter of Christian protesters? Is that also a sign of the superiority of Muslim culture?”"
No, that’s just Arab culture. And what incident are you referring to anyway? For I would much rather be a Christian in the Levant middle east than a Muslim in India. Not even Pakistan has seen an anti minority pogram as vicious as Gujarat in 2002.
“Your culture has become synonymous with hatred, violence, persecution, closed-mindedness, ignorance and prejudice.”
I’m glad we all look alike to you. So what else is new on Fox news?
“…nor do they run around blowing themselves up along with innocent people who have done nothing to them.”
They use sickles to cut up the bellies of people or rape the women of the ‘enemy’. Rape of nuns is very common during anti-Christian pogroms, that happens about two or three times a year in Hindutva states. During religious pogroms, Hindus don’t like quick and clean methods of slaughter, they like to taste the blood. Also, they don’t spare little kids and pregnant women.
Hinduism is a religion from a period where alternative religions didn’t exist. Hence, Hindu theologies didn’t develop terminologies comparable to the concepts of Jihad, Crusade or the Inquisition. But that doesn’t stop today’s Hindus from being intolerant maniacs, when they are the larger mob against a smaller minority.
The reason why Hindus aren’t as violent in your country is the same reason why Hindutva activists don’t have a program in my nation. Hindus are instrinsically, cowards. They don’t have the guts to fight in one-on-one situation or when they believe the enemy is more powerful than them. Hence, you’d only find Hindus riot in states where they are a large overwhelming majority against a tiny, defenceless minority. They mob usually in ratios larger than ten to one.
I do agree with your dung beetle analogy though. Islam, as it is practiced in Muslim societies is past its expiry date. The mud slinging between Xera and Jaipal, both of them defending their savage ideology is a good example of what is wrong with these ancient religions. It is all about self righteous hate, hate and hate.
Athiest Indian, I can call you out and I will call you out on your inaccurate bullshit that you post. I never advocated nor was I arguing in favor of radical Islam, fundamentalist Islam, the greatness of Islam to ALL religions on this planet, Islam in every form or shape and how “perfect Islam is”. What I was attacking is your shitty ass Indian people and it’s culture, AND how they ended up tainting the image of Islam and it’s interpretation of it from their socio-geographical view. Of course I am not a big fan of organized religions becoming violent or self-serving entities, especially Islam.
But It seemed to offend you somewhat when I derided Indians, Hindu religion & failure, and the suck that is Indian culture, should I be surprised? Given their crap genetics, crap food in regards to their genetics, over-population, ugly ass looks and behavior, lack of individual identity, scumbaggery, lack of good hygiene practices, scent, their disgusting behavior in overseas countries, short-sightedness, greed, selfishness, stupidity, xenophobia, Aztec idol worshiping religion, complete opposition to an idea of human society and egalitarianism, underdeveloped medieval concept of world, racism, lack of order, lack of civic duty, lack of honor, lack of higher concept of society, lack of character and masculinity, etc etc. One needs to simply go check an internet forum such as bodybuilding.com to see how Indians truly are to the outside world, and how most people share the exact same views about them as me (including various Indians themselves). You need stop being such a pompous, pretentious, passive-aggressive guy and play the decent guy for once.
“…What I was attacking is your shitty ass Indian people and it’s culture”
You weren’t attacking my culture, you have absolutely no idea what my culture is or what it is like. Like other ignoramuses, you believe that there is such a thing called ‘Indian culture’ and all ‘Indians’ follow that ‘Indian culture’.
Why would I be personally offended if you deride Hinduism, you idiot? I was never born a Hindu and my culture was never Hindu in its 1000+ years of recorded history. I don’t give two hoots what a camel jockey thinks or says about a religion that I dispise as much as yours. Your posts are all about how Muslims are superior to other faiths and how Arabs are superior to other Muslims.
“One needs to simply go check an internet forum such as bodybuilding.com to see how Indians truly are to the outside world…”
How does it even relate to the argument here? I am not ethnically Indian and besides, even if I was, it wouldn’t have made a difference to what the argument here is about.
“You need stop being such a pompous, pretentious, passive-aggressive guy and play the decent guy for once.”
Maybe I will, if you stop being such a self-righteous and ethnocentric ignoramus bulshitter. If I were half as ethnocentric as you, I’d have put your fat Arab ass right where it belongs.
@ Richard,
Good to see that you have some sense about the dangers of Islam.
Now, you might think that I am being biased as an Indian Hindu when I
criticize Islam and Muslims. But my criticism is an informed one because I have
studied and observed Islam in action, so I am not under any illusions about Islam.
Many of the Muslim posters here like Xera and Dota won’t tell you the truth.
The truth about Islam is very ugly and it is not easy to handle. They are just deceiving
you and pulling wool over your eyes. Islam actually permits lying in its name,
particularly if it helps in its nefarious goal to conquer and convert the world and
impose the Sharia!
Richard,
Sorry if you felt offended. I am not normally like this actually.
But I will be honest with you. I absolutely despise these paedophile worshippers
who want to impose their stone-age Islamic Sharia law on the entire world,
America included.
How can you be so blind to these terrorists?? Didn’t you learn something
after Sept.11?? Wake-up man. We are at war with these Muslim fuckers!!
And here you are asleep at the wheel!!!
@ Richard,
Many of the people here will indulge in calling me names like “Hindutva”,
“Hindu fanatic” and whatever other creative words they may have in their “Swearology”.
But all that colorful words cannot negate the reality that my arguments are based on facts
and not fantasy. Some people can’t handle factual based analysis.
Islam is indeed a big evil. Don’t get confused. There is actually nothing like a “moderate
Muslim” as opposed to “Fundamentalist Muslim”. Moderate Muslim is an oxymoron.
All Muslims are potential terrorists since they believe in a terrorist creed.
The difference is one in degree only, not in actual substance. A so-called “Moderate
Muslim” can very easily turn into a “Fanatical Muslim” or terrorist!
The difference lies in the terminologies used and the semantics behind it.
What we non-Muslims call terrorism is to Muslims an obligatory religious duty
called “Jihad” or Holy war. Its aim is to convert non-Muslims to Islam using force!
You are indeed a Hindutvadi my friend. A particularly virulent too I might add.
Robert Lindsay,
If you don’t mind, I am going to ask you a question.
Hopefully, you’ll be honest in your answer.
Have you heard of something called the “American Taliban”.
Ever heard of a person called John Walker Lindh?
What made this American join the Taliban and take up arms against his own country, America?
This happening after Sept. 11.
What could possibly have been the reason for his traitorous behaviour and actions against
his own country?
Richard
“”"Man, despite the fact I’m getting a bit of an education about how Hindus and Muslims feel about each other, “”
Actually Richard, you don’t yet understand. Muslims are comprised of a billion followers who are racially/ethnically/linguistically heterogeneous and dispersed around the world. Hindus for the most part are geographically concentrated in India. Most Muslims know little of Hinduism and are indifferent to Hindus on an individual and collective level. The Muslims who hold any sentiments towards Hindus are Pakistanis, Bangladeshis and Indian Muslims, who are essentially Indians themselves. Hindus on the other hand have a pathological hatred for ALL Muslims. This includes Indonesians, Malaysians, Africans, Bosnians, ie people that have had little historical interaction with India, much less harmed it. The only thing these cultures share in common is a religion, and for that, the Hindus will hate them eternally. Most non Sub continental Muslims harbour no animosity towards Hindus or India on any level, but Hindus are collectivists and define their identity around the collective, so they cannot see this. Hindus see all Muslims as a single monolithic race.
@ Dota
Well said. The average Hindu doesn’t know much about Muslims outside his purview of desi Muslims. He also believes that Muslim docrine of universal Muslim brotherhood is for real, as opposed to an impossible ideal. So he imagines that a Pakistani Muslim and a Bosnian Muslim share a common culture, just like how non-Indians believe that all Indians are Hindus and share a monolithic ‘Hindu culture’.
@Atheistic Indian,
First go study Islam and see the Five pillars or obligations that every Muslim is
obliged to do! It has become fashionable to hide behind the “Diversity” argument!
Well, for your information, a Muslim fundamentalist in Saudi Arabia will be no different
than an Pakistani Muslim Fundamentalist! They will certainly see eye to eye!
Why do you think? is because of the ideology!
Go learn something rather than indulging in sterile pseudo-intellectualism!!
@ Jaipal
Dota actually covered that. Outside of the Arab world, Wahhabism (your idea of ‘good muslim’) isn’t mainstream. Among Indian Muslims, Deobandi, Sufi and other Indian schools of Islam takes precedence over the direct teachings of the Quran and Hadiths. The idea that an Indian Mullah preaches Jihad in Friday prayer is utterly misinformed. No person with half a brain would say something so ridiculous.
“a Muslim fundamentalist in Saudi Arabia will be no different than an Pakistani Muslim Fundamentalist”
On that note, a Hindutvawadi from Maharashtra would share ideologies with a Hindutvawadi from Bihar. But in real world, the Marathis despise the Biharis or any Hindi speaking people for that matter. That is where culture trumps over religion.
If Muslims are united by the ideology of Islam and the concept of universal Islamic brotherhood against the infidels, why do you think Saddam took the help of United States to crush Iranians? Why do the Kurds fight the Turks, even though, by the diktats of the Koran, they should have been brothers? Why do the Hazaras hate the Pashtos and Uzbeks hate the Kazakhs? Why do you think Muslim countries are so Balkanised? Shouldn’t they all be united in their universal brotherhood, spare their rage killing us infidels instead?
The US policy makers understand this which is why they dominate Middle Eastern politics, whereas the Delhi administration has pretty much zero influence in the politics of Pakistan. The US knows how to successfully exploit the cultural differences between different Muslim cultures, which is why it gets its way in the Middle East while India can’t even get its culturally closest neighbour, Pakistan, to extradit a known Indian mafia don.
“Go learn something rather than indulging in sterile pseudo-intellectualism!!”
There is nothing pseudo- about it. I have actual degrees in sociology and social psychology, I have spent almost two years in the Muslim world, watched their lifestyle and cultures first hand. Pseudo-intellectuals are those who speak on subjects they are not qualified to speak or quote information from second hand, questionable sources.
@Atheistic Indian
You still have a long way to go before you are able to understand Islam without
looking at it through blinkers.
As far as balkanization of the Muslim world is concerned, that is simply because most
of the Muslims are not focused on immediate implementation of the Islamic agenda!
However these societies do identify themselves as Muslims and they do acknowledge the
authority of Quran and Hadiths, whether you want to admit it or not! So, in the long
run, they are bound to organize and seek implementation of Sharia.
Muslim societies’s implicit and explicit adherence to Islam is what gives the support and
drive of Islamic extremists to pursue their nefarious agenda. Too bad you can’t understand
that! Looking at the present disorder and disunity in Muslim world doesn’t negate the
possiblity of a future Caliphate from coming into existence.
In any human community, there are bound to be internal quarrels, Muslims being no
exception. But that doesn’t disprove the possibility of a future plan of action seeking
to bring about Islamic Caliphate! Wahabbi groups across Muslim states could possibly
coordinate their efforts to bring about that elusive unity at present at a future date !!
You are either ignorant or short-sighted to grasp that fact!!
@Dota,
Just stop your deceptive nonsense. I know Islam and what its intentions are.
You can’t fool me but you might be able to fool the White folks. Your Taqqiya nonsense
needs to be exposed.
I have made it clear that regardless of race, language or geographical orientation,
Islam is ideologically one! There is only ONE Allah, ONE Quran, ONE Prophet,
and ONE form of Law, namely Sharia Law!!! Islam is Islam! Islam cannot be
reformed or changed because your own “prophet” Muhammad made it clear that
no additions or changes can be made after his death! Bida’a or innovation is
forbidden!! So, Islam cannot change with the times!
@ Dota,
Don’t lie! Most non-subcontinental Muslims certainly do hate Hindus, particularly for
being polytheists. Polytheism or “Shirk”, that is associating partners with Allah is a huge
crime. It is considered the biggest crime in Islam.
Now, for arguments sake, lets suppose you are right, that they don’t hate Hindus,
well if that is the case, then they are not being true to their faith, Islam.
In Islamic Parlance, they would be known as “Bad Muslims” who dont follow their
faith properly!!! Go ask any Mullah/Imam if you any doubts about this!
“The two of you just wind up sounding like completely juvenile assholes, Xera and Jai-Pal.”
Glad that you’ve noticed the striking similarity. And I believe Gay State Girl did too. It is like watching two village idiots get into an argument.
Well Athiest Indian TBH you were part of her observation too
Of course, has it ever crossed your ignorant idiotic “most powerful of the world cultured” mind that not all Muslims are crazy terrorist backing thug wannabe’s with vitrolic hatred of everything Western and aspirations to rule and enslave everyone else in the world? Has it ever crossed your mind for once that maybe, that maybe that it’s your government, along with the U.S government that set up Mubarak in this country, pursuing a settler colonial racist apartheid project in Israel and the Gaza strip; that this same government of yours is also backing Chechen and caucus Muslim extremist terrorist groups in Central Asia to attack Russia & China, supporting mass immigration of Muslim factions to certain countries for political purposes, while bashing those Muslims in public and covertly arming and supporting them, providing the infrastructure and paramilitary training for these Islamic fundamentalists under the table? That it was this same Government that created Al Qaeda and Osama Bin laden to take down the former Soviet Union, put in and supported wahabist extremist groups to destroy secular democracies in the Middle East and propped up Islamic dictatorships and extremist thug rule in less developed countries so the “powerful” country can continue to drive beat up cars, rely on crude fossil fuels to buy shit slave labor made goods and eat junk food to end up looking like shit? Did you know your government set up horrific dictatorships and monster-cannibal like leaders in South America and Africa, armed & fueled drug wars on those countries that still continues to THIS DAY, and shipped drugs from those wars to underdeveloped urban cities in the U.S to keep the African American population in the U.S poverty and crime ridden?
Has it also ever occurred to you that your Government is fully supporting an Islamic country called “Turkey” with a very violent “Islamic history” of it’s own, trying to secretly, silently and deliberately create a Neo-Ottoman Islamic Empire with it’s main base in Istanbul, stretching all the way from the Balkans, North Africa, entire Middle East, Caucuses, Muslim ruled countries, all the way possibly to even Indonesia, in fear and retaliation of China and Russia forming a opposing strategic alliance to Western supremacy along with other countries with close ties with them so that this government remains imperialistically unchallenged in supremacy of it’s ways in this world? This same government bashes everything Islamic in public while supporting Islamic rule in countries such as Saudi Arabia, Kuwait, and then supports Turkish killings and mistreatment of the Kurds, and the violent aggressive Turkish “Muslim” colonization of Cyprus, hmmm I wonder why that is?
Has it also occurred in your mind that the reason why certain third world countries have such corrupt rule and are in horrible conditions, is because of your most “powerful of the world government” covertly setting them up to steal the resources from these countries, prop up corrupt leaders and bribing them by bringing them to Western countries and giving them lavish lifestyles? Extracting the richest and/or smartest ones to destroy the capability and adaptative ability of these countries to extract resources or territory in the name of capitalism while hindering any development and self-sufficiency, indebting these countries with loans they can’t pay off? Destroying the infrastructure of these countries by thug/mercenary proxies, brain-washing these same people to hate themselves, their own cultures & land and to suck up to a different ethnic group?
As far I’m concerned, people like this “Ferdous” are problematic and are part of the problem of these countries and indeed the entire world. For all his worldly “experience”, he is, despite his western education, experience, still too moronic, stupid, brainwashed, and self-centered like every third worlder, to figure out how his family and him are responsible for the majority of his people being peasants and how they are being used in this global system for a method of downsizing, leveraging, and weakening these backward countries.
He has not managed to figure out how this world REALLY works and what this “most powerful culture” of the world engages in that’s never shown to anyone, that keeps the people of his country in one of the most depressing, shit-like conditions of the human race. He looks down on his people because he is rich enough in a system of vast inequality, to despise them and to associate himself with a culture that is using him as a tool to keep his people and country/backwards poor intentionally.
If this Ferdous character was really civilized, worldly, intelligent as you claim, and had a ounce of humanity, he would realize that human suffering, ignorance, poverty, inequality, peasantry and backwardness are universal human conditions in every race that is overcome by long ardous socio-economic development, educational and technological advancements. He would use this understanding of this condition to help his countrymen, distribute his family wealth accordingly to lift the country out of it’s peasant like state and backward conditions, so it could join the process of becoming “civilized”. But from your description of his attitudes, beliefs, his disgusting way of viewing his own people and trying to use his leech like derived wealth to try to be accepted by a group of people that will never truly accept him and sees him as the same dirt as the people of his country, Ferdous is no different from those peasants he looks down on and whom want to also be like him and despise each other equally as Ferdous. The same peasants despise Ferdous along with each other because of the shithole inhumane primitive lifestyle imposed by Ferdous and his family, who despise the peasants and themselves also ironically.
Infact your Ferdous, with his despicable self-serving, short-sighted, arrogant, holier-then-thou, rationalizing bad behavior, faux elitist mindset, that every third worlder aspires to and has if they ever gain into his position of wealth & power, is indeed the very caricature of a third worlder. We can safely say he is completely like every third worlder that resides in the third world. He has the exact third world close-minded, short-sighted, arrogant, egoic, myopic self-servititude, dislike of his compatriots, complete disregard for human life & suffering, pretentiousness and need to separate himself, self-loathing, material obsession as a means of existence, self-profiteering, desire and need to be something else other then of his own kind to that of another group unlike himself, opportunism and class realization/interpretation to support his views of self-perceived superiority and degrading behavior towards his kind and the leeching of wealth and economy of his own people as a result of it. He has his views & behavior because of him being the result of the environment he was born in, as the same as those dirty peasants he despises that were also born in that same environment and hold his same views toward each other underneath themselves; only to express them once they reach his position in life as a result of the same environment both the peasants and Ferdous were born and resided in. They are essentially two sides of the same coin, the coin of turdness, third-world, shitiness, human filth, backwardness primitiveness, the worst of humanity in it’s worst condition.
You see Richard, I can’t imagine myself trying to ever be like, act like (oh my lord), Ferdous and his counter-parts across the globe I never have to need to nor would ever want to, act and display the same deceptive behavior that people like him show to ignorant simplistic people around the world. I’m just too smart, careful, informed, aware and I also have a conscience to see through the evil cheap charade and bullshit of people like Ferdous. I also don’t come from a nowhere small minded worthless desperate place and country where the people, culture, history, mindset, and everything is just so bad & shitty-ass, that I have a need to be like Ferdous. This Ferdous character does not represent the existence and living of a higher form of human civilization (the exact opposite infact); because if that’s what you & everyone else in advanced civilizations think the behavior of a higher civilized people in this world should solely consist of and which I should mimic and try to imitate Richard, then I can’t talk to you or attempt to live in this world anymore. Richard and everyone else that hold his seriously misguided, naive and misunderstood views of “certain” people, I severely urge you to re-think about life, about globalism, and how human societies live in states of civilization and behavior in different conditions, and the morality & characteristics of certain people in these different conditions.
Dear god its a comment that has single handedly broken the essay/quick response barrier. Touche
It singlehandedly broke my browser. But he had some good points.
You mean “many” good points but not “some” good points, otherwise I would like to hear about why some of them don’t qualify.
I’m not so sure about the whole west supporting a Neo Turkish Islamic empire to counter balance China. That hypothesis reeks of Johnny boy. But other than that, I agree with quite a few things you’ve said up there. I have to admit, I too questioned your credibility from time to time based on some of the comments you had made earlier (ugly east Asians ect…).
How is it unbelievable? With the way the U.S was trying to set up a pipeline in central Asia, Turkey’s aid towards Israel and it’s close relations with the U.S & having U.S bases installed in it’s borders, as well as both the U.S & Turkey supporting Islamic terrorism in Central Asia, it’s not that unbelievable. Plus the fact that it really is threatening to the U.S, that China+Russia+Syria+Iran+all the Central Asian states are trying to form an oil pipeline connecting each other and reconstruct a silk road of sorts, with Turkey+U.S providing the support of Islamic extremism in these areas, pretty believable. Add to the fact that the Turks are pretty fascist, racists, have killed Kurds and think they are destined to rule the Arabs, the Egyptians, the Kurds, the Greek, the Armenians,all of Asia minor+the Balkans once again and REALLY want their long lost empire back+pretty angry at the Arabs for backstabbing them in WWI.
As for East Asians, (I don’t find the females attractive), they are one of the least attractive races in the world but they think they are hot shit for some reason and treated rather well for some odd reason.They are pretty lower tier in the dating pool and possibly the last option of any hot girl of any other ethnicity other then Asian girls. I just don’t get the big fucking deal with those people and why people think their societies perfect specimens. I have lived in China for 6 years and I know exactly how these cunts work in overseas countries and their cultures but most people don’t. They are also pretty racist againt’s Muslims and have a whole lot of racist garbage, don’t let the overseas ones fool you. Robert if you think Chinese society is a perfect harmonious society full of introverts that don’t cause any crime, and if you think most East Asian societies are this way, then you ARE SEVERELY MISTAKEN.
Don’t forget JFK installing missiles in Turkey eventually leading up to the Cuban missile crisis.
“As for East Asians, (I don’t find the females attractive)…”
Its good that you do. These days, it seems even Thai prostitutes, who are not known for discretion, refuse Arab customers. So its nobody’s loss, really.
“They are also pretty racist againt’s Muslims and have a whole lot of racist garbage, don’t let the overseas ones fool you. ”
To be honest, the Arab people are not particularly easy not to be racist against. Their cultural ethnocentrism, religious zealotry, excessive xenophobia and a few other things makes them easy targets.
The only way for Arabs to be liked and tolerated in a non-Arab country is by creating an environment of political correctness and playing the ‘white guilt’ card. Even countries in the non-Arabic Muslim world, like Pakistan, Turkey or Malaysia look down on Arabs with an underlying sense of disgust, mockery and contempt. A running gag among Pakistanis for example, is how Arab men propose marriage, “Sister, will you marry me?”
Funny AI, I thought you were referring to the majority of Indians when you just said about the political correctness part because their bodies absolutely suck ass, they look just hideous, they can’t create something for their lives sake, make technology on their own and steal/loot every country they go to, EVERY COUNTRY as they are now doing with U.S tech companies. Just read Tunnel rat’s blog to see how much your Indians are loved across the world. I saw many Arabs in the U.S, China and elsewhere and they were never getting as much (not any at all) disrespect or bad treatment as the Indians. They completely suck in everything and can’t develop any weapons, or a conquering navy/army. It’s been what like 60 years? In that time frame China and every surrounding country managed to build something (besides Pakistan & Bangladesh) or a habitable place, your Indiots infested, looted, and destroyed every surrounding country and every country they went to with their Hinduized culture. Interestingly there was a blog post about whether or not Lebanaese were white, and one Maronite guy was pointing some things about your Indians.
At least the Arabs managed to do something with shit worthless land and what they had and ran a large empire. Hell they had the brains to figure they had oil and at least come up with the concept of a city in the desert. Something that Indiots would never have come up with in their sub-continental minds. BTW I was going to respond to your once again inaccurate and outdated assertions about the Arabs but then why bother with an emotional Indiot?
And why exactly would they honestly give a shit about Thai women when Arabs can have a variety of women including their own, (whom the best of, are far better looking then chink ass East Asians) or other have access to even European women. BTW dumb shit I’m not an Arab but an Egyptian but apparently you can’t even fucking read.
Oh wait you are an Assamese, which means that your like both an Indian and a South East Asian person put in one. The best of both worlds huh?
“”Interestingly there was a blog post about whether or not Lebanaese were white, and one Maronite guy was pointing some things about your Indians.”"
And that Maronite fellow was a fucking retard. Look Xera, the quality of debate on this blog is far superior to any other forum I’ve seen out there, and most of us regulars like to keep it that way. We don’t mind deconstructing religions and cultures here but we don’t have time for comments like “blacks look like monkeys” (which you didn’t say I know) or “East Asians look alien”. Nobody here cares for pettiness.
Ever since you came here you’ve been brimming with hostility and you’ve even pissed of Hacienda (who is pretty cool), AI, Bibi, and BAG (didn’t think it was humanly possible to piss him of). I’ve routinely pointed out that Indian culture sucks due to the incompatibility of Hindu values with modernity, which was artificially thrust upon a rural and segregated society. If you despise East Asians so much, why don’t you do a critique on Confucian philosophy and how it gives rise to undesirable behavior?
@ Xera
I would have responded to your lengthy post, but on second thoughts, decided it is better not to provoke the camel jockey inside you. As Dota said, we are here for the quality of discussion that takes place in Lindsay’s blog, not for immature, reactionary mud slinging. Good day to you.
You know what, Xera, this last essay of yours had me rather surprised, in a good way. I always knew that at some point, you’d turn around. It is very well put, even if a bit emotionally charged.
Yes, I thought he would come around eventually. He’s not really a reactionary at heart or deep down inside, I can see that much.
Atheist Indian
The reason why Hindus aren’t as violent in your country is the same reason why Hindutva activists don’t have a program in my nation. Hindus are instrinsically, cowards. They don’t have the guts to fight in one-on-one situation or when they believe the enemy is more powerful than them. Hence, you’d only find Hindus riot in states where they are a large overwhelming majority against a tiny, defenceless minority
Interesting you should say this as Tehelka made a similar indirect observation during the california textbook controversy.
from Tehelka
“”Where Hindutva in India menacingly brandishes its muscle to elicit fearful compliance from the minorities, in the US it uses the subdued vocabulary of plurality, multiculturalism and “hurt feelings” to plead for incorporation into the mainstream.”"”
Full article here: http://www.tehelka.com/story_main16.asp?filename=op020406Hindutva_goes.asp
in the US it uses the subdued vocabulary of plurality, multiculturalism and “hurt feelings” to plead for incorporation into the mainstream.
In addition to cowardice, it’s also because they know that white people are suckers who indulge minorities like no other.
Actually BAG, it’s not really whites they are seeking to curry favour with, its the Jews. Hindutvadis still despise whites deep down, never forget that. In their eyes, all goras (whites) = Christian invaders who looted glorious India. One wonders how the glorious and brilliant Indians were unable to defend themselves, yet rest assured that the Hindu’s cowardice is also somehow the ‘Muslim’s’ fault.
@Atheist Indian,
What is your actual ethnicity originally??
You said that you are not ethnically Indian in one of your above posts.
So what are you? A Parsi?
“The reason why Hindus aren’t as violent in your country” (Quote)
Gee I wonder, could it be because the Hindus in America are a very small minority
that is focussed on bettering itself economically, like any other immigrant group,
rather than wasting their energies on pointless “Street-Fighter” politics!!
He is Assamese. Practically a separatist too, if I read him correctly.
I got that impression, but I’m not sure what AI’s ethnicity is, I don’t think he’s spoken about it. I support the liberation of Assam and even Gandhi realized that India had no claim to that region.
He is Assamese all right. He doesn’t come right out and say it, but you can figure it out. I figured it out by looking up some of the words he was using on Wikipedia.
Yes you’re right Robert, I just dug out one of his previous posts and he did mention that he was from Meghalaya, which is historic Assam.
At any rate, AI makes an excellent addition to this blog.
Hold on there, aren’t these Assamese people somewhat Asian looking? I wonder how AI knew anything about Thai prostitutes, must explain why he got offended when I said shit about Asians.
@ Robert Lindsay
I am a Khasi with a paternal Ahom lineage. I didn’t offer the information, since no one asked. I prefer the term nationalist, since ‘seperatist’ implies breaking away from a larger motherland, which in case of my nation(s), is not the case.
@ Xera
I find xenophobia offensive, whichever racial group it is directed against.
If you are a Khasi, then you look somewhat Asiatic then, correct? The Ahom side would probably look more Indian. Do you speak the Khasi language?
Like a number of North East Indian tribes, the Khasi and Ahom people tend to be exogamous, so there is a lot of variation in what we look like.
I believe my looks are Asiatic, although I have been mistaken for an Uzbek or Kyrgyz on occasions, when I used to fly for Aviacompany Scat, a Kazakh cargo/charter airline.
“same reason why Hindutva activists don’t have a program in my nation. Hindus are instrinsically, cowards. They don’t have the guts to fight in one-on-one situation or when they believe the enemy is more powerful than them.” (Quote)
How do you say that???
Of course the Hindutva activists have a program in India and it is very simple.
Namely, installing a pro-Hindu government in a Hindu Nation that looks after
Hindu interests. In other words, ending the pseudo-secularism that is hypocritically
anti-Hindu and pro-minority in a disproportionate manner! If Hindutva had no agenda,
then why are you bothered about it in the first place and even talking about it, hmm?
RSS is a national movement/organization with about 60 million members!!
The BJP is the political wing of RSS and it is already a national party! So you are
wrong.
“Hindus are instrinsically, cowards. They don’t have the guts to fight in one-on-one situation or when they believe the enemy is more powerful than them. ” (Quote)
And your source is?? Another unsubstantiated statement of yours.
Of course Hindus can fight and they do fight! In Assam, for example, in the 1980′s,
about 3000 Muslims were slaughtered in one shot by Hindus! In Gujarat, some
2000-3000 Muslims were killed by Hindus in 2002 AD. Hindus destroyed Muslim property
worth 50 billion dollars in damages!! In 1992, Hindus destroyed Babari Mosque and
and slaughtered thousands of Muslims in the process!!
As far as the analogy of “enemy being more powerful”, well the idea of fighting is to WIN.
So you have to make the appropriate tactics/strategies to secure a Win depending on
the nature of the enemy. Any sacrifice made must be a meaningful one NOT a meaningless
one! According to the situation, you have to plan and make the right moves.
You have to plan your battles accordingly and fight battles you can win. That is smartness!
Hindus are no different than any other people. If sufficiently provoked, they will fight
back! They are not impulsive people by nature but that should not be interpreted as a sign of weakness!
worth 50 billion dollars worth in damages!!
No they are cockroaches that can’t run an advanced civilization,that cheat and lie about their economic growth so they go to overseas countries and force other people to give them jobs and use race political tactics to make themselves feel accepted.
You said it perfectly to Xera what I was about to say.
If Egyptians are so smart, then why is Egypt a shit-hole by Western and Middle-East
regional standards?? And what is this Egyptian-”American” doing meddling in
other countries’ shit when his own country is shit and needs fixing up!
The fact that he’s in America speaks volumes about his “aptitude” and “capacity”.
He would rather pontificate and bad-talk about other nations standing from America
rather than focus on his own’s country’s problems!
When I was studying in University, there was one Egyptian guy who said that everyone
in his country was desperately trying to escape from Egypt. And yet this moron, Xera, keeps
defending Islam and Islamic cesspools and probably desires to make Sharia “stone-age” law
supreme in America. Its a good indication of his “intelligence” and “reasoning” levels.
He doesn’t seem to understand that he’s in America in the first place ,since his country is
a cesspool and ISLAM is CAUSE for it!!!
Xera,
I already explained everything to you but it seems that you are illiterate
and can’t process in your mind whatever I told you in my above write-ups!
Indian/Hindu Civilization is one of the oldest in the world. It was also an advanced
civilization created by and run by Hindus only for millenias. It was also one of the richest
civilizations too. Many foreign observers of the past have praised and considered Hindus
as a great people, yes including even Arab historians! So what you say has no credibility
at all.
The Indians were far stronger and more resilient than your inferior Egyptian people.
That may be hard for you to digest but that is fact!! You Egyptians have no manliness
because had you been so manly and heroic (sarcasm), then you would not have been
conquered and owned for 2000 plus years by every foreign invader who set his foot
in your country!! Even your ex-Premier, Anwar Sadat remarked that he was the
first genuine Egyptian to come rule Egypt in the past 2000 fuckin years.
So, you are actually quite inferior. So, I wouldn’t talk if I were you.
Xera
March 1, 2012 at 10:48 AM said:
“they can’t create something for their lives sake, make technology on their own and steal/loot every country they go to” (Quote)
Oh really?? Did you know that the Indians launched a Mooncraft on their moon mission
in 2008 AD?? Did you know that they created the world’s cheapest car, the Tata Nano??
What technology have sand-nigging Arabs created or invented in recent times??
Arabs are big underachievers who spend their life whoring in Europe and chasing
prostitutes!
Xera Said:
“Just read Tunnel rat’s blog to see how much your Indians are loved across the world. I saw many Arabs in the U.S, China and elsewhere and they were never getting as much (not any at all) disrespect or bad treatment as the Indians.” (Quote)
Thats because these countries see Indians as potential competitors.
So they have some apprehensions! Big Deal!
The reason Arabs are not treated with as much racism is because everyone
knows that Arabs are lazy and uncompetitive, so they don’t fear you.
You don’t make any impressions on their mind because you are unimportant!
Xera said:
They completely suck in everything and can’t develop any weapons, or a conquering navy/army. It’s been what like 60 years? (Quote)
LOL, you are so ignorant. Indians have developed nuclear weapons and their own
Nuclear Missiles!! They also have a robust Space programme! You must be a dumbass!
Indian Armed forces are one of the largest armed forces in the world! Indians are far more
powerful than Egyptians!!
Does any Arab country have nuclear weapons or space programme of their own???
Go bury your head in the sand, you fuckin sand-nigger!
Jaipal,
So what good are India’s nuclear weapons or silly space program if-
One Indian farmer commits suicide every 30 minutes.
According to the recent HUNGaMa report 59% of Indian children under the age of 5 yrs are permanently mentally & physically stunted due to malnutrition.
About 665 million Indians engage in open defecation daily.
According to the Government of India’s ‘shitistics’, 10 million cases of diarrhoea, more than 7.2 lakh typhoid cases and 1.5 lakh viral hepatitis cases occur every year mostly due to unclean water supply and poor sanitation in India.
UNICEF states that 1,000 Indian children, under the age of 5 yrs die of diarrhea and other diseases caused by poor sanitation DAILY.
75% of India’s surface water is contaminated by human and agricultural waste and industrial effluent, according to the Indian Ministry of Urban Development. Including India’s holiest river, the Ganges.
I could go on, but I think you get the idea.
Mera Bharat Mahan?
@Bibi,
I have never denied the problems that modern India faces as far as social and economic
indicators are concerned! Its good you brought it up because what it indicates is that
Congress and its peculiar brand of “secularism” is largely the reason for these problems!
Congress indulges in vote-bank politics and Muslims like you will readily vote for these
criminals simply because of a so-called “Hindutva Bogeyman”. You guys never learn
and have a herd mentality!
The other reason is that socialism the way it was practised in India between 1948 AD to
1992 AD was flawed! Private enterprise was heavily discouraged and the socialist
inspired labor laws prevented a potentially vibrant manufacturing sector from developing
which could have given employment opportunities to MILLIONS!! Also, corruption
was sanctioned by the Congress party under the disguise of “secularism” and cheap
politicking since Congress has no patriotic feeling but wants power at all costs!
That is why the above has happened!
The solution is Hindutva only to the above problems!
So, I support Hindutva for that reason!
“So what good are India’s nuclear weapons or silly space program if-
One Indian farmer commits suicide every 30 minutes.”
Whoa,
@ Jaipal
The information about Hindutva being cowards is something I concluded from my own studies of their societies. Hindutvawadis riot only against people who are defenceless and in the minority, as opposed to fighting for what is right and just. A Hindutva society or educational institution can never create a Subhash Chandra Bose or Bhagat Singh. They’d be too obsessed trying to drill Hindu parampara and sanskaar, rather than impart ethics, integrity and strength of character.
The Nellis massacre in Assam was never about Hindus or Muslims. It was a localised riot against Bengali (Hindu & Muslim) immigrants in a few districts of lower Assam, by Assamese ultra nationalists. And it was a dastardly act.
Your examples are a classic case of Hindutva cowardice. Rather than fighting corruption in your own governments which are the root of your socio-political problems, you are too gutless and go for the ‘little guy’ instead – the minorities, couples strolling in a park or anyone who doesn’t have the means or the capacity to retribute. Attacking and massacring 3000 innocent and unarmed people in mobs of 60,000 people is nothing to be proud of. It is sheer cowardice, the lows of the lows, bereft of all moral integrity.
@ Atheistic Indian,
You seem very confused. It was precisely because of Hindutva
that a Bhagat Singh and Subhash Chandra Bose could be created!!
Both these men took pride in their Hindu Heritage which inspired
them to high acts of courage and sacrifice in the first place!!
As far as corruption and other problems are concerned, Hindutva
movements are against it and do work against corruption, you dummy.
They don’t support corruption. Because Congress was the single
party that dominated Indian politics for nearly 60 years, the
corruption grew at enormous levels. Note, this is the party
that preaches Secularism and what not! To clean up the corruption,
will take some time! It won’t be done overnight obviously!
The best governed states in India tend to be Hindutva dominated such
as Gujarat. Gujarat’s economic growth beats the national average!
Even Congress accepts that!
As far as riots go, have a look at Pakistan for example! Large
Muslim mobs routinely attack “tiny, defenceless minorities” too
with abandon!
You have never studied in an RSS school. They do emphasize
ethics, character building and integrity along with cultural
teachings! They are also involved in relief work too!
“Both these men took pride in their Hindu Heritage which inspired
them to high acts of courage and sacrifice in the first place!! ”
Bull crap! Bhagat Singh was rather public about his atheism and anti-Hinduism. Read his famous article, “Why I am an atheist” (google it) which he penned in his days in jail, before he was martyred. It would remove any doubt that he wanted anything to do with Hinduism.
Subhash Chandra Bose was similarly, a left wing socialist and an atheist. He once famously quoted that if he had a way, he’d put both Hinduism and Islam in a bag and dump them away in the Bay of Bengal. He married Emilie Schenkl, an Austrian Catholic who bore him a non-Hindu daughter, Anita Bose Pfaff.
The Hindutva culture of UP on the other hand, created incompetent bhang addicted thugs, who went on a rape-and-loot rampage in the first wave of the 1857 mutiny, before the British sent reinforcements and crushed them.
Gujarat is hardly a state any objective person would call ‘well governed’. It is a hotbed of xenophobia, religion fundamentalism and corruption. The only reason that Gujarat prospers is because of the creation of SEZs which attracted corporations to set up manufacturing bases. The SEZ model was a copy-paste from the Chinese model, not a product of Hindutva culture.
Pakistanis who mob on defenceless minorities are cowards too.
Gujarat is also home to mercantile communities which belong to the trader caste. It’s no surprise that Gujarat has a strong economic base. Bengal on the other hand has a significant Brahmin population but no traders; hence the Bengalis have produced excellent literature and higher culture, but nothing else. According to Aakar Patel, Bengali literature is translated into Gujarati because the traders of Gujarat are incapable of producing literature for themselves. Explanations along the lines of left and right wing ideologies are all fine and dandy, but this is India people, and caste is still the most dominant force here. Jaipal is fucking retard who should go sit on a Trishul.
@ Dota
Both SC Bose and Bhagat Singh were legitimate leftists. Both of them broke themselves away from the short sightedness of the caste system, had liberal world views and leaned towards atheist socialism in how they went on with their lives. So I think it would be valid to call them leftists, as individuals, even if they come from a culture that is casteist.
@Atheistic Indian,
About Subhash Chandra Bose, you are actually wrong. He was influenced and
moulded by Hindu religion and culture which shaped his political and social
thoughts!
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Subhas_Chandra_Bose:
Bose believed that the Bhagavad Gita was a great source of inspiration for the struggle against the British.[28] Swami Vivekananda’s teachings on universalism, his nationalist thoughts and his emphasis on social service and reform had all inspired Subhas Chandra Bose from his very young days. The fresh interpretation of the India’s ancient scriptures had appealed immensely to him.[29] Many scholars believe that Hindu spirituality formed the essential part of his political and social thought through his adult life, although there was no sense of bigotry or orthodoxy in it.[30] Subhas who called himself a socialist, believed that socialism in India owed its origins to Swami Vivekananda.[31] As historian Leonard Gordan explains “Inner religious explorations continued to be a part of his adult life. This set him apart from the slowly growing number of atheistic socialists and communists who dotted the Indian landscape.”.[32]
@ Atheistic Indian,
As far as Bhagat Singh is concerned, even he too was influenced by Hindu religion
and concepts. Perhaps, later on in his life, he would have become an Atheist BUT in
his formative years and upbringing, he was certainly a Hindu and that influence is
what ultimately made him into a freedom-fighter!! Have a look at this link below:
http://www.boloji.com/index.cfm?md=Content&sd=Articles&ArticleID=1569
Some excerpts from his article “Why I am an Atheist”:
“And in those days, I was not a perfect atheist. My grand-father under whose influence I was brought up is an orthodox Arya Samajist. An Arya Samajist is anything but an atheist. After finishing my primary education I joined the DAV. School of Lahore and stayed in its Boarding House for full one year. There, apart from morning and evening prayers, I used to recite “Gayatri Mantra” for hours and hours. I was a perfect devotee in those days. Later on I began to live with my father. He is a liberal in as much as the orthodoxy of religions is concerned. It was through his teachings that I aspired to devote my life to the cause of freedom. But he is not an atheist. He is a firm believer. He used to encourage me for offering prayers daily. So, this is how I was brought up.
@ Atheistic indian,
But Gujarat is succeeding also because a Hindutva government is the one
that is providing the leadership and drive, as well as a vision for progress!!
That is what has inspired the people of Gujarat.
If Congress ,with its vote-bank politics and corruption, was in power, then Gujarat
would just be another “Bihar” like state!!
My opinion:
Atheists>Christians>Jews>Hindus>Muslims>Rastafarians
“Namely, installing a pro-Hindu government in a Hindu Nation that looks after
Hindu interests.”
And what exactly are these ‘Hindu interests’? Burn widows, marry 12 year old girls to 30 year olds, keep women in their ‘place’ in the kitchen, pour molten lac into the ears of a dalit and not practice basic toilet hygiene?
http://www.channel4.com/programmes/kevin-mccloud-slumming-it/4od#3051417
Channel 4 documentary. English guy goes to stay in a slum in India. He is disgusted by the extremely unsanitary conditions (involving an open sewer) but he also finds that there is a strong community with hardly any crime or loneliness and the people seem generally happy. Questions whether this is more or less civilized than England where people often die alone and are not found for months. The people seem well fed and well dressed to me and they have jobs and school so there are probably worse slums. May be of interest to somebody on this thread. Hope you can watch it in your country.
‘The people seem well fed and well dressed to me and they have jobs and school so there are probably worse slums.’
Actually its Dharavi, so that’s the big slum in Mumbai, isn’t it? The one where slumdog millionaire was set…
..and episode two with the ‘recycling’ is shocking…people working on the rubbish tip to salvage anything they can sell or transform. On the other hand, the resourcefulness of the people and all the economic activities in the slum are amazing.
“I get exhausted with this place…absolute delight is alternated with utter horror…its as though the place is deliberately trying to screw your mind”
-Kevin Mcloud, aforementioned English guy.
Steve
It’s irrelevant whether slum dwellers are ‘happy’ or have a sense of community. Whats relevant is that they have been expelled from mainstream society. That they share the same physical space as the rest of us but are morally and socially invisible to the rest of us. Their condition is appalling and all too visible, yet they exist on the periphery of society’s consciousness. What makes their condition even more appalling is that the very notion of social justice does not exist in the Indian vocabulary. Therein lies the ultimate problem with Indian culture (regardless of region). That the person on the social rung below you is not quite as human as you are. That person is not seen as an individual that is the sum of a set of hopes, aspirations and instincts. He possess human form, but without substance. A simulacrum. The most valuable lesson that India and Dubai have taught me is that it takes a fraction of a second to degrade another human being.
Just curious, Dota.
You mention that Indians draw on a collective identity, and yet at the same time completely neglect social justice and any commitment to help their fellow Indians.
If Indians are indeed collective, wouldn’t it reason that the poor would receive at least a little more attention, if only moral support?
I attributed greed and apathy in Western countries like the U.S. to a “looking out for number 1″ individualistic mentality.
Besides Hinduism, what accounts for it in India?
That’s an interesting question BAG. There is a certain level of group empathy in India, but it is confined to ones caste/community/group. Members of a certain caste and group look out for themselves, but this concern is in no way universal. It is confined to the group. You can see this in Steves link where slum dwellers have forged a strong sense of community. If the poor have wealthy acquaintances within their caste, they can count on those to help them out. That’s how the Sindhis, Bohras, Memons ect operate. The Bohras (my community/caste) happen to be very organized about this. We’re expected to pay a ‘tax’ to the community fund annually. Poorer members of the Bohra community are entitled to ”welfare” payments from this community fund. No Bohra would expect a non Bohra to help him out. Its just unheard of. Tribal/castiest societies cannot be moral. This is because morality can be defined as a universally applicable set of ethical standards. Hinduism mandates a different set of protocols to be applicable to different castes, thereby retarding universalism.
So is there a strong notion of colorism within Muslim communities like the Bohra? I’m guessing that should have an obvious answer
@ Dota
Society in general cannot be moral, regardless of whether they are individualistic, tribal or casteist. BAG made a good point, how individualistic greed can overshadow social ethics.
Ethics have to be unambiguously defined and then enforced, either as laws or as social codes of conduct. Tribalism and the concept of ‘us-vs-them’ is a natural human instinct, it is not intrinsically good or bad. It is inevitible that humans form tribal groups of some sort of the other; from high school cliques among kids to the concept of patriotism that creates a sentiment of ‘we vs. they aliens’ based on the country/nation this ‘we’ is made up of.
I find it interesting and relevant that they are ‘happy’ or have a sense of community. People around here talk like India is a hellhole full of sociopaths where everybody is out for himself and there is no decency. Then you see inside the slums and its not really like that at all.
Okay the economic growth and development stats look impressive but where is the decency? You find that in the biggest slum it is surprisingly civilized, there’s not much crime and there’s a lot of sharing and community and people are not lonely and individualistic. And the resourcefulness and ability to organize themselves economically in the direst of circumstances is truly impressive.
‘Whats relevant is that they have been expelled from mainstream society.’
there was an act of expulsion? Or did the slums just form organically from migrants that had nowhere to live etc?
‘That they share the same physical space as the rest of us but are morally and socially invisible to the rest of us. Their condition is appalling and all too visible, yet they exist on the periphery of society’s consciousness.’
What are the wealthier residents of Mumbai supposed to do? What could they do, even if they cared? How do you know they don’t?
Isn’t it the case that the government are implementing slum clearance programmes and building blocks of flats, with national tax money?
You could have said the same thing in 19th century England anyway.
‘What makes their condition even more appalling is that the very notion of social justice does not exist in the Indian vocabulary.’
Write that on a postcard and address it to the Ministry of Social Justice and Empowerment, Government of India.
Steve-
Before I came to India I naively thought what I read by philosopher Will Durant wrote about India was true-
‘Perhaps in return for conquest, arrogance and spoliation, India will teach us the tolerance and gentleness of the mature mind, the quiet content of the unacquisitive soul, the calm of the understanding spirit, and a unifying, a pacifying love for all living things.”
PFFFFT!!!!!!!!!!!!!
After living & working in India for 7 yrs I can tell you the entire culture is based on ripping each other off.
First I thought it was just ‘rip whitey off because whitey’s rich & an invader/outsider’.
Nope, Indians would just as soon ‘rip each other off’ any chance they get.
Instead of-
‘tolerance and gentleness of the mature mind, the quiet content of the unacquisitive soul, the calm of the understanding spirit, and a unifying, a pacifying love for all living things’
The overall sense I get in India is utter contempt & outright hatred of anyone outside their perceived communal group.
Note the ‘black monkey’ comment & the ‘idiot Muslim’ comment.
Mark Twain summed it up brilliantly long ago-
“In India, all life is sacred, except human life.”
I’d probably amend Mr Twain’s quote to
“In India, all life is sacred, except impoverished human life.”
You simply can’t function as a rational human being in India unless you become insensitive to the poverty & suffering around you.
By the way 54% of the children of those ‘happy’ slum dwellers in urban Mumbai will be dead before they reach the age of 5yrs.
Namaste.
The problem with Steve is that he hasn’t visited India and hasn’t come in contact with the notorious Indian indifference. Somebody had once said that indifference is the worst sort of evil. You have to visit India to truly understand why.
Dota & Steve-
“Indifference is the essence of inhumanity”.
-George Bernard Shaw
Bibi & Dota,
You’re right, I haven’t been. I will have to take Bibi’s word for it. I do take Bibi’s word for it, in fact.
I’m still generally optimistic about India’s future though, including its ability to eradicate the notorious poverty…and I don’t think the culture is thoroughly ugly. There are positive things there. I’ll have to be an Indian progressive….
Take caste…will jati or caste continue over the next 100 years as India develops and becomes a sophisticated, modern economy? If jati ever reflected a genuine division of labour, I don’t see how this can possibly continue in a modern economy with universal education…people from every caste will increasingly get whatever job they can…..wont they? Isn’t this happening already? And I know what young middle class people are like in the modern world and I bet they will marry whoever they want after a couple more generations. what do you think? Feel free to educate me on caste.
@ Steve
Caste has already started to lose its hold on much of urban area. The Generation Y doesn’t seem to care all that much about the caste of people that they work with or socialise with. Ethno-national identities, like being a Gujarati or Bengali is more important now.
Marriage is still a caste conscious area though, because Indian marriages are still mostly arranged matches which are heavily influenced by parental choices.
thanks Atheist Indian. thanks for the info.
I had a Gujarati friend from the barber caste who was dating a ‘mystery’ caste girl (that’s how the name sounded to me). They were both brought up in England, both totally willing to date and marry outside their caste, but they both took great care to hide their relationship from their Indian parents. Give it a few more generations and we’ll see what happens to caste….
This is interesting-
Some comments from the Times of India article on the newly released ‘UNICEF State of the World’s Children 2012′ in regards to India:
“Brahmin (India, Inc.)- dont have to insult all indians. All these child marriages, bride burning, etc is done almost exclusively by our lower caste black monkey population who unfortunately reproduce like rodents. And yes, our media has an addiction to compare everything with china as if india is that good, which sickens me as well. But there are areas in India where the upper castes dominate (the non black hindus)and those areas we truly shine. Look at our space programs. Look at India’s general business climate, the owners, the top financial gurus are all upper caste indians and thats the reason India still grows by 7 to 8 % a year despite the lower castes trying to pull the country down.”
“Abishek (Hyderabad)- I think the idiotic Muslims are the culprits when it comes to issues like population explosion and poverty. I have been living in Hyderabad for around 2-3 years now and know this for a fact. Most of the muslim couples have 9-10 children though they can’t raise them properly. And to top it they don’t contribute much to the society also. (Muslims don’t give me rare examples like Kalam, Rahman, etc.) All they do is read the Quran (which is funny as hell) and eat have sex all the time (like the paedophilic Muhammed who abused a 9 yr old girl). I think its time to kick these idiots out of Hindustan to Pak or Bangladesh where they rightfully belong. To do this we should elect Hindutva leaders like Narendra Modi & he’ll take care of the rest. Jai Hind”
Yes, this is the mentality you have to deal with in India.
The article & many more equally insightful comments are at-
http://articles.timesofindia.indiatimes.com/2012-03-01/india/31113013_1_child-marriage-unicef-child-brides
Makes me wish the Brits had never left. Ultimately, this is why Indians get so incensed when talking about the Brits. It’s not because the goras looted the ‘pavitra’ (pure) motherland, but because they accurately assessed the Indians. The Brits understood their subjects well and realized over 200 years ago that these people were truly unfit to govern themselves.
One more question, Dota.
On an overall societal/macro level, it would appear that Indian culture/Hinduism indeed sucks big balls.
But India does have accomplishments to be proud of. Much of the math that the Abbasids drew on during the Islamic “golden age” came from India.
Do you think Indian culture has any redeeming qualities?
Bay Area Guy,
I recommend you have a look at Hindu literature like the Upanishads, Mahabharatha etc.
Actually, there is quite alot of Hindu literature spanning many fields. Their philosophical
traditions and various schools of thought are quite extremely rich and intriguing.
There is infact a lot of good stuff in their long intellectual heritage. I recommend you have
a look at it. Yoga, for example, is a Hindu school of thought.
The basic problem is that many White Americans have a superficial idea of Hinduism
or even flat out wrong notions. This is probably because many of them have been
watching too much of Pat Robertson’s Christian fundamentalist views on Hinduism
which has given them a wrong understanding. I myself had these erroneus notions
of Hinduism until I had a look at their literature. Its pretty good actually.
BAG
Most of the accomplishments of India’s civilization were made by Brahmins. Most of the greatest writers, philosophers and thinkers in Indian history were Brahmins, such as Kautilya and Tulsidas (there were some exceptions). I think you understand why, because Brahmins have traditionally monopolized education, or higher learning (beyond mere literacy). This is the reason why historic India might have enjoyed a thriving civilization, but that civilization and its values pretty much skipped several strata of society. Ergo we’re got a philosophically sophisticated civilization with more than half its population crapping outside in the open. If you’ve read Plutarch’s biography of Alexander you would recall how the conqueror was outwitted by a group of Brahmins. He wanted to test men of learning in India and he had no one else to engage except Brahmins. My ancestors were from the trader/merchant caste (the lowest ranked Aryan caste) and I don’t see how they would have contributed anything to Indian civilization save for oiling the machinery.
“My ancestors were from the trader/merchant caste (the lowest ranked Aryan caste) and I don’t see how they would have contributed anything to Indian civilization save for oiling the machinery.”
The merchant class in India could make a enormous contribution to India by buliding a decent network of outhouses. Better yet, a decent plumbing system. It will change everything about India.
The merchant class in India could make a enormous contribution to India by building a decent network of outhouses. Better yet, a decent plumbing system. It will change everything about India.
Thanks Hacienda. I like the way this comment smells. This comment also makes it easier to walk around without watching where I step all the time. Put your eyes to the sky and breathe the fresh air!
Now that education is becoming universal (the literacy rate is up to 75% from 12% at the end of British rule) and is no longer monopolized by Brahmins, maybe the majority of Indians will finally be able to inherit and benefit from the great intellectual accomplishments of their civilization.
We have the technology!
My district was the first to be declared ‘open defecation free’ here in Nepal. Yippeee!
EcoSan toilets rock!
Check this out-
http://qualityoflifetrustecosan.wordpress.com/category/composting-toilet/
‘Benefits of Ecosan Toilets:
One main environmental benefit of the Ecosan Toilet is to recover the nitrogen-rich human waste byproducts, so they can be used to help food plants grow in the village, rather then just going to waste.
Another major benefit of the Ecosan Toilet is with water. No water is needed, reducing water consumption. No water connection is needed, as with other toilets, so the Toilet is easier to construct. No septic tank is needed, so the cost of the toilet is much less. Also there is no risk of water contamination, as is always the risk with septic tanks.
There is a strong health benefit as well. Human excretions often are the cause of diseases and spreading of the diseases. The composting action of the Ecosan Toilet prevents the spread of disease, sterilizes this waste and kills all the pathogens.’
Getting Indians to use toilets is another problem-
Women have been the easiest to get to use the new toilets. Right away, they see the benefits of ease of use and improved privacy.
The woman get the children trained to use the toilets, so this comes naturally.
The men are more of a problem. They do not see as much need to change.
To encourage cooperation a number of things have been done. An educational program was conducted on the benefits of the Ecosan Toilets. This has been done both in group meetings and one on one. Also trips were made to villages that already were using Ecosan Toilets, so that the villagers could talk to other villagers who had gone through this change, and see for themselves that this was worthwhile.
We do not have a good solution for the men. Some have been able to see that it is safer. Some men can be convinced by their wives. Some can understand that late at night, the Ecosan Toilet is easier to use. Then, once they get started using it, then may continue.
Thx for this comment Bibi. I like the way it smells. Smells very nice for a blog comment.
@ Steve
Statistics. How many of these 75% literate Indians can actually read and write, as opposed to signing their names and recognising some basic words, because they have been trained to do so?
Lies, damned lies and statistics, eh? I don’t know Atheist Indian, how many?
In the documentary I linked to, the kids in the slum went to school. The little girl spoke the best English in the family. Aren’t a lot of the population getting primary education and if so, I assume most of them learn to read, no?
Hey Bibi
What do you think of http://www.whiteindianhousewife.com/ ?
What do you make of her experiences and observations?
Dota-
Oh that’s Sharell’s blog.
Her observations are quite accurate. Although she’s toned the blog down since she has published her first book about her experiences on marrying an Indian & moving to India.
She’s understandably using the blog to market herself & her new career as a writer- she’s also the author of the About.com’s India site. (She used to be an accountant in Australia).
Her blog used to be ‘unmoderated’ until the Hindutva bullies got out of hand ‘defending Hindu/Indian culture’ there too. Now every post is ‘moderated’ & at times censored.
Very unfortunate. I rather enjoy reading the candid observations of westerners who have resided in India. Do you ever personally feel threatened by Hindutva?
Having lived in Srinagar, Delhi, & on the outskirts of Bangalore- yes, I have been threatened by those with the ‘Hindutva mentality’ before I even knew what it was.
I’ve had threats of being reported to the CBI, had FIRs supposedly filed against me, had guns pointed at my head (Srinagar), vague death threats of someone going to ‘get’ me, direct death threats etc.
Bullying is such an integral part of Indian culture I really don’t pay much attention to it anymore.
@Bibi,
Muslims are backward in their basic behaviour pattern! That is a fact.
They are always looking to go backwards in time and not forwards.
Thats why they can’t really improve in the long run.
Hindus have at least more of a progressive mentality than Muslims since
Hinduism allows and encourages flexibility of thought and adaptation.
In Western countries like Britain, America etc, Hindus do way better than
the Muslims and are not a social nuisance the way Muslims usually are!!
HA HA HA HA HA Hindu’s do way better? This guy is becoming more hilariously wrong no wonder these Hinduvta are idiots. Listen Indiot, look at how much your Indian “Hindu’s” are liked in Singapore, Malaysia, various South East Countries, Burma, Nepal, Japan, New Jersey, California, Dubai, etc. Again good sir, just read Tunnel Rat’s blog on how much your Indians are loved by Americans:
http://www.techinsurgent.com/
This guy is such an obvious Hinduvta nationalist idiot twat that’s a cancer upon man kind and the human race. The majority of Indians are leeches, parasites, savages, primitive no concept of higher order, racist-castist, dirty, backwards, unhygienic, filthy, dumb, selfish, egotistical, thieves, pedophiles, and job beggers that carry the third world with them wherever they go and a majority of the time replicate the exact same Calcutta like shit hole in the countries they try to siphon the wealth out of, which they are trying to do in the USA. Indians don’t like other Indians and try their best in life to get out of shit hole India and avoid other dirty Indians at all costs. Indians usually hate themselves for what they are and wish they were something else, hence why they can’t get along themselves a majority of the time, such is the curse of being Indian. You guys don’t create things you guys steal things from other people hence the poverty & misery in your countries, those missiles and everything else were created by Russians, Europeans and Americans. India and it’s citizens could never have come up with anything on their own or invent any technology if their lives depended on it, that’s how much Hinduized sub-continental culture sucks.
Hindus do way better. They earn more money, have better jobs, commit less crime and take less from the government than Pakistanis. I think they even do better in those regards than the white British. The Indians and Chinese are pretty much model immigrants.
Personally, I wouldn’t mind a larger population of Indians or Chinese in Britain. I think they fit into our society very well, even enrich it.
They appear to do better because many of those model immigrants come from the trader and Brahmin castes whose values are nowhere as militant as the peasants (Patels being an exception). Many of the peasants do not have the money to immigrate and hence most westerners never come in contact with them abroad. As AI repeatedly says, fly down to Bihar and Orissa and you might change your mind about Indian culture. Westerners are exposed to the less retarded castes in the diaspora. Pakistanis predominantly come from the peasant caste and their cultures is identical in many ways to the Biharis of India.
@ Dota
Exactly.
As I’ve been saying all along, selective immigration. Indian immigrants who come to the U.S. are an extremely biased sample, and are hardly representative of India’s general population.
Most Indian immigrants and Indian Americans are some kind of doctor, lawyer, or engineer, but the vast majority of people in India itself aren’t.
@ Dota, BAG
The Pakistanis were poor villagers from lower castes but the Indians were all from higher castes?
Can you point to any evidence for this selective immigration theory in regard to Britain? I mean, why do you think it? There seem to be Indians from lower castes in Britain.
@ Xera,
Yes, it is a fact that Hindus are doing better economically than Muslims in all
the countries that you mentioned! In Britain, Pakistani Muslims and Bangladeshi
Muslims are quite poor and uneducated but the Indian Hindus are infact doing well.
In America, Indian Americans have the highest or one of the highest median incomes!
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indian_American#Statistics_on_Indians_in_the_U.S.
In Singapore, also its Indian Hindus who do well, not Muslims!
In France, North African Muslims like you are unemployed and live off welfare benefits!
Many French people see you Muslims as a social nuisance and would like to get rid of you!
Xera, everything I say is factual. But much of what you say is all wrong.
You don’t even know your own history properly! I’m much smarter than you sand nigger.
Apart from the selective immigration which Dota mentioned, there are some cultural factors which make Pakistanis seem more militant than Indians.
As I have mentioned in a previous comment here, the Hindutva crowd is violent only when they are an overwhelmingly large group against a smaller minority. This is why you’d see Hindu militants mob and massacre Christians in Karnataka, but dare not raise a hand at Christians in North East India. They massacred unarmed and defenceless Muslims in Gujarat OR Sikhs in Delhi, because they know these people can’t retaliate. The same thing goes in United States as well. They are peaceful only because they know the US administration would crush them if they do radical. Unlike Pakistanis and Arabs, they have no resource rich lobbies to back them up if gets that messy. If Hindus ever gain majority in United States, people who think now that they are peaceful would start feeling like Muslims in Gujarat or the Catholics in Karnataka.
Hindus aren’t militant in the traditional sense, they are bullies. They are the 8th grader kid that snatches lunch box from a 1st grader.
Jaipal,
Yes, I recall my former Hindu neighbors in California, the Patels.
Nice folks. Very progressive mentality. Unfortunately their ‘flea bag’ hotel was determined to be a very ‘public nuisance’ & was razed to the ground by the city (at public expense).
You can read about them here-
http://www.pressdemocrat.com/article/20110401/articles/110339836
“Santa Rosa collects $1.1 million from ‘prostitution’ motel owners”
“Santa Rosa has collected a $1.1 million judgment against the former owners of a hotel that was once a notorious haven for prostitution.
Police raided the Llano Hotel on Santa Rosa Avenue in 2005, sued the Patel family for creating a public nuisance and bulldozed what assistant city attorney Mike Casey called their “flea-bag” motel 18 months later.
The investigation found that the owners not only knew about the prostitution going on at the 20-room hotel, but profited from it. The city showed that the Patels charged inflated rents to pimps and hookers and even set “house rules” for prostitutes.”
@ Bibi,
There are always exceptions. I never said that ALL Indian Hindus are good or honest
people. BUT, on AVERAGE, yes they are better than Muslims in many ways.
I know from experience because many White folks that I have interacted with tend
to be more comfortable with Hindus, rather than Muslims!
In Western countries, Muslims are seen increasingly as a problem. Deny it all you want
but that is the truth! Muslims are seen as welfare parasites who go to Europe and leech
off the welfare system! I know many Europeans personally and they have nothing but
utter contempt for you Muslims! But because of PCism, no one is openly saying anything!
Is it true that Indians wipe their ass with their bare hand? I find that truly disgusting. I’m open to other cultural practices, but that is a shitty hand too far. I don’t know if I could even date somebody who did that.
Very true… even in middle class and above. Toilet paper isn’t something that’s become common quite yet. Many/most toilets aren’t even built to take in toilet paper. Whenever I’m in India, I also have a roll in my backpack to be ready.
you have to throw the paper in a bin in Greece too, in Crete anyway.
Is it true that Indians wipe their ass with their bare hand?
Yup.
And the toilets in India are primarily ‘squatters’.
You use a mug of water & your left hand.
Pour water over your bum, and with your left hand, just whittle away with your fingers and try to dislodge any lumpy bits while pouring water.
Yes, you have a soggy crotch which in the temperate climate of India often results in some sort of fungal infection.
It is advisable to keep your fingernails clipped short, (& avoid those with long fingernails.)
If you think any of the 665 million Indians who defecate/urinate openly on a daily basis wash their hands afterwards with soap & water- you’d be sorely mistaken.
I’d advise babywipes as a healthier compromise.
The fecal-oral route just became a four-lane highway. Please include a new definition for the term “squatter’s rights”.
Indeed,
“Sanitation is more important than political independence. The cause of many of our diseases is the condition of our lavatories and our bad habit of disposing of excreta anywhere and everywhere.”
-Mohandas Karamchand Gandhi, 1925
Mera Bharat Mahan!
eeuuughh. Just eugh.
haven’t they got any leaves in India? If they are not disgusted by it, somebody needs to educate them on the problems of shitty hand bacteria.
Xera,
I forgot to mention it but as far as paedophilia goes, your “Prophet” Muhammad
was infact a Paedophile!! It is Sunnat! Your Quran even glorifies paedophilia
the “prophet” himself not only practised paedophilia with his child-wife, Aisha
but he even got his “revelations” while performing the act in bed with Aisha!!!
Jaipal (and your alter-ego Xera too)
You ever watch tropic thunder? You really should. Here is a clip for you.
@ Akash,
Don’t act too smart! It is a fact that Muhammad the “prophet” was a paedophile!
Since you probably don’t read, you wouldn’t know about this fact ,would you?
What can you expect from a people that considers a paedophile as their life-breath?
“I forgot to mention it but as far as paedophilia goes, your “Prophet” Muhammad was infact a Paedophile!!”
I don’t know why Islamophobes parrot this one like their only weapon in the armoury. The only thing this proves is that Muhammad wasn’t a prophet, but more like a Mormon cult leader. Whether he was a paedophile or not is subjective, since it was tradition of the Arab society at that time to marry young girls to much older men.
The practice was prevalent in India as well. According to the Manu Smriti, a 35 year old Shudra was supposed to marry a girl of 12. Given that Hindu women were supposed to burn themselves at the funeral pyre of their husband, once can only feel for these girls.
“The practice was prevalent in India as well. According to the Manu Smriti, a 35 year old Shudra was supposed to marry a girl of 12.”
AI, how many Hindus you’re acquainted with are even aware of the Manusmriti? From my experience, it is about 1%. Agree with the statement on Muhammed though. Sure, by today’s standards, he was a Paedophile. But then, most of our ancestors were too. Only difference: the rest of them did not start a cult.
‘Whether he was a paedophile or not is subjective, since it was tradition of the Arab society at that time to marry young girls to much older men.’
If it was normal in his Arab culture, then he probably wasn’t attracted to children as his primary orientation. I’ll give him the benefit of the doubt on that. He did apparently have sex with a pre-pubescent (objectively a child) though so that part isn’t subjective. If a whole culture does that, then pedophilic behavior is normal in that culture, objectively.
“AI, how many Hindus you’re acquainted with are even aware of the Manusmriti? ”
Very few, just like Muslims. Which again, comes to the point, you cannot judge a group of people by their religious scriptures, the way Jaipal judges Muslims based on Koranic teachings while completely ignoring that the same parameters can be used for Hinduism. Personally, I think if more people delved into their religious scriptures with an objective unbiased mind before criticizing other religions, they’d have ended up atheists.
“Only difference: the rest of them did not start a cult.”
A lot have tried but didn’t get as much of a fan following. Muhammad was not only a very shrewd cult leader, but the political scenario in 7th century Arab world favoured his ambitiousness. Also, unlike a lot of other religious reformers/leaders, he wasn’t too much of a hypocrite. In exchange for their devotion, he kept his devotees satisfied, by offering them delights both in this world and in the so called ‘hereafter’. He also consolidated a lot of the core pagan practices into Islam, so that Arabs have an easier time transitioning to his religion. By doing so, he greated a band of devotees who would do anything to defend Islam and maintain the status quo. Islam is probably one of the most successful pyramid schemes ever created.
“If a whole culture does that, then pedophilic behavior is normal in that culture, objectively.”
Paedophilic culture was the norm at that era. Virgin Mary was 12 or 13 when she gave birth to Jesus. Historical facts support that much. While the Christian and Islamic world maintain that it was a spiritual conception, I believe it was a classic case of unwed teenage pregnancy and Yosef (Joseph/Yusuf) was the probable father of the kid.
* he created
Well said AI
Girls became women when they hit puberty. St Augustine’s mother tried arranging his marriage to a 12 year old girl, according to his Confessions. Bashers will always pull customs out of practice. There is a legal age for marriage in all Muslim countries except Saudi (not sure tho).
pull customs out of context I meant to say
Howard
According to you
“All immigration is selective. Even if there were no restrictions or special visas, the very fact that the immigrant has the money and drive to leave his homeland and pursue an unknown future is a form of self selection. The notion that a group of college educated Indians would do well in the United States, with only 30% of the general population having a Bachelor’s degree, is unsurprising. To suggest that we are not seeing the top tier of the Indian population is disingenuous. Perhaps not the top 0.01%, certainly a portion of the top 10%.”
If you base your argument on the fact that all immigration is “selective”, then I have no arguments with the rest of your paragraph. Now that also means that Hindu immigrants are only as selected as Muslim immigrants or any other immigrant from a third world country. That, in itself rebuts the claims that Hindus are successful because they are “Highly Selected”. They are no more or no less highly selected than the Muslims according to your logic.
My question is what, in your opinion, is the reason for Hindus being much more successful in the US or UK than the Muslims? I
I meant to say, Hindus are “more successful” because they are “Highly Selected”
With clarification, your argument becomes more tenable. I am unqualified to comment on whether Hindus or Muslims are better immigrants, nor do I wish to engage in that discussion. I have known many Muslim and Hindu physicians over the past 30 years and have found them both as competent and as arrogant as their American counterparts. They are the “select”.
Here is my point. Almost to a man, there is no one on this thread who can claim that he is even remotely representative of his “people”. Whether we are here to learn or teach, we are almost independent of our origins. Even the moderator of this blog can be seen taking one position, then slyly shifting to another. Why side with the Hindus or the Muslims? Clearly, your choice is to spend time with your brothers of the internet.
dear robert lindsay you r an asshole…..islam sucks n so all the terrorists r muslims…islam hd no other base apart from war n women, muslims have disrespected women to the most….good that the culture of bangladesh is Hindu culture which saves the citizens from the islamic shit….dubai hs been created wth the help of America, there are no morals or ethics in that place…no islamic country can ever be a superpower n that the almighty for that…….u n ur bunch shd burn in hell so that the world is free from nonsense….Hinduism is far more superior thn islam….islam is dirty, radical, useless, terrorist,, invertibrates. islam has given only terrorism, war n ruthlessness to the world. islam believes in killing n forcible conversion. the world spits on u. may there be no islam, let islam vanish from the surface of the earth, the earth wd be a cleaner, safer place only thn
Hinduism is superior in all sense. Long live Hinduism
You’re banned, jerk.