I asked commenter Atheist Indian whether the Catholic Church had gone through any reformations. He replied that the Church had gone through a reformation of its own:
With the advent of Renaissance in Europe and the subsequent loss of its authority and hold on public life, the Catholic church had to evolve to survive in a world where intellectualism could flourish, without being able to prosecute what it felt where ‘heretic’ thoughts and ideas.
Feudalism, which enjoyed the support and patronage of the church, waned and wore off in a post-Renaissance reality where “all men are born equal” (or as equal as can be, in those times). The church and Christianity as a religion went from an infallible public authority to something that is a lifestyle choice, like whether to wear skirts or not.
I agree with him about Catholicism. The Church stopped burning heretics, quit interfering in science, and in the 20th Century, has moved much further towards socialism than Protestants ever have. Even hardcore “traditional Catholic” types are quite socialist on economics. Typically they support producerism and distributism and rail against both capitalism and socialism as evils. It’s quite obvious that laissez faire capitalism is a profoundly anti-Christian doctrine. It doesn’t take much thinking to figure that out.
Of course, liberal Catholics have been socialist minded forever now. Here in the US, the Church heirarchy always supports “the preferential option of the poor” as they call Liberation Theology in Latin America. Meanwhile, Liberation Theology is a huge trend in Latin America.
No such obvious trend is visible anywhere in Protestantism, and in fact, fundamentalist Protestantism promotes a profoundly reactionary, feudalist, and anti-equality doctrine in Latin America. It’s pie in the sky when you die and kill the Catholic Commies. Rios Montt murdered 10-20,000 Guatemalan civilians in less than a year while Reagan cheered. He did this all in the name of “kill the Commie Catholics” doctrine.
Curiously, in Colombia, Protestants have long been regarded as possible Commies as they were not Catholic, and all good Colombians are Catholics. Suffice to say though that fundamentalist Protestantism is the leading edge of reaction in Latin America the same way it is the US, Canada and everywhere else on Earth. Protestantism is so reactionary nowadays that one could be forgiven if you thought that Catholicism was the reform movement and Protestantism was the backwards feudalist form from the Middle Ages. It’s as if Luther was never born.
In recent years, the Vatican has launched far ahead the Protestants in many ways. The Vatican settled their beef with the Jews to their credit. Papal encyclicals actually lent credence to Liberation Theology while exposing schisms in the Church. Recently, the Church stated that both alien life and evolution were completely compatible with Catholic teaching.
The Church has even stated that it is normal and acceptable for some persons to have homosexual impulses and feelings. The real reactionary elements in Christianity anymore are the Protestants – only Protestants oppose evolution.
In most Catholic countries, the Left is either in power or very powerful. Portugal, Spain, Italy, France, Austria and Poland all have or have had a strong Left. The Left is strong and armed in the Philippines, mostly because of Catholicism.
The Latin American Left is very strong in El Salvador, Honduras, Mexico, Haiti, Colombia, Guatemala, Peru, Chile, Argentina, Brazil, Bolivia, Paraguay, Venezuela and Ecuador. Here you have priests running around with machine guns fighting with armed guerrilla bands. Former priests are Leftist leaders in Haiti, Nicaragua and Paraguay.
Isn’t this kind of ‘old hat’?
This all started in the 16th century with the ‘Counter-Reformation’ & then the ‘Council of Trent’, the ‘Age of Reason” etc.
Pope Benedict XVI was a member of Hitler youth, Pope Benedict also endorses the ‘Tridentine Mass’ which contains a prayer “For the conversion of the Jews” & prays for them to be “delivered from their darkness.”
The Catholic church also still espouses that its followers should eschew sexual activity outside of heterosexual marriage, including masturbation, sodomy & homosexual practices,artificial contraception (including condoms in this age of HIV), as well as procuring or assisting in an abortion.
The Catholic Church has tried to influence governments to preserve Sunday as a day of worship, to restrict or, as in Ireland, Italy and Latin America, forbid divorce, abortion and euthanasia. It has also pressured governments to ‘restrict’ or ‘not to promote’ the use of contraceptives.
Apparently the Catholic church has long been a haven for pedophiles, given the number of allegations & its practice of shuffling abusive priests from parish to parish. That makes the Catholic churches’ recent stance on homosexuality all the more interesting as there seems to be a ‘gay subculture’ within the clergy. The vast majority of ‘sexual abuse’ cases consisted of males preying on male adolescents (over 90% of the sexual abuse victims were teenage boys rather than girls or prepubescents).
Traditionalist Catholics like Mel Gibson and his father have went against the Catholic church since the reforms of Vatican 2 which is said a Bnai Brith Jesuit spy Malachi Martin help lay out the new Catholic reforms.
Pope John UK- So, let me get this straight…John Paul II was the Anti-Christ, John Paul I was too, as was John XXIII…
And just where do you fit in, Johnny Boy? I sense a thread here.
Nice website link! http://www.mostholyfamilymonastery.com/
I’m still engrossed in it! My fave articles: “Natural Family Planning is Sinful Birth Control” and “Is Masturbation a Mortal Sin? Yes!”.
The best part is, with so many good Cathlicks entering this world, one can be comforted knowing that Hell is full of them in just proportion. (SMILEY FACE)
That’s a dumb link.
Those are radical traditional Catholics, opposed to all of the new progressive changes that went down since Vatican 2 in 1965. To them, Vatican 2 is the ultimate in radical shicmatic secularization and liberalization of the Catholic Church. The thing is that the new Church is all post Vatican 2. Vatican 2 is the done deal, and it’s a good thing. The idiots who are in power now, like this new pope and Cardinal Benedict, are the post Vatican 2 rightwingers and are widely considered to be reactionaries by most sane people. However, even these reactionaries are condemned by the Trad Catholics on this page. Mel Gibson and his father are Trad Catholics, and they are OUT of power. These guys don’t represent the modern Church, and what they are advocating is contrary to the Doctrine of the modern Church. However, the Church doesn’t throw them out. The Church doesn’t throw ANYONE out.
BTW, Islam says masturbation by either sex is also a sin, and it’s practiced by 1.3 billion people all over the world. How many of them refuse to masturbate, I have no idea.
“It’s practiced by 1.3 billion people all over the world.” What is, Islam or masturbation? Anyway, at that rate, they ain’t masturbatin’ enuff!
As of Vatican 2, masturbation is no longer considered to be a sin. It was sinful before, but not now. The view since 1965 is that it is part of human nature, and no one can be faulted for simply acting human. But in general, the Church simply doesn’t talk about it. If you go to Confession and confess to masturbating, the priest will tell you it’s no longer considered sinful. So you see the Catholics are ahead of the Muslims here.
Robert L
“”BTW, Islam says masturbation by either sex is also a sin, and it’s practiced by 1.3 billion people all over the world. How many of them refuse to masturbate, I have no idea.”"”
Depends on the Imam you ask, some will ok it if it prevents pre-marital sex. That’s how Islam works, small sins are acceptable if they prevent larger ones. Faced with starvation and you’ve got nothing around except pork? Fine, eat the pork. But make a sincere effort to find something else to eat and God will forgive your sin in the interim. Can’t control your lust? Fine, porn is better than pre-marital sex. But make arrangements to get married soon and God will forgive your temporary porn habit. Islam can be remarkably tolerant that way as it never tries to suppress human nature but works around it. But the Wahabis wouldn’t allow it, they are too rigid and unbending. It all depends on which imam you ask.
AI
“”"Islam and Hinduism don’t accord the same level of acceptance, which goes a long way in suppressing creativity, free thinking and individualism in societies dominated by these two faiths. Neitzsche, Voltaire, Locke or Rosseau couldn’t have survived these societies.”"”
I disagree. Islam does not have a central body that regulates and enforces morality and theological interpretations. So it all boils down to how conservative a society is. Islam has the pre-requisite equality required to nurture free thought. There have been Muslim nobel prize winners and Iran does a lot of non military R&D as exceptional commenter Wade pointed out last year.
“Islam does not have a central body that regulates and enforces morality and theological interpretations.”
Islam does not have an official global authority to impose itself, but it nonetheless has regulatory bodies to make sure a community of Muslims stay within the line. The punishments for straying can range from anything like social ostracisation to vandalisation. Salman Rushdie and Taslima Nasreen getting exiled from their respective ‘secular’ countries are good examples.
“Iran does a lot of non military R&D as exceptional commenter Wade pointed out last year.”
Iranian R&D survives in spite of Islam, not because of Islam. I wouldn’t be too far off the mark if I were to presume that a lot of Iranian scientists, philosophers and other intellectuals are atheists, they are just unable to come out with it because of the repurcussions of doing so.
Islam and intellectualism can’t live together, because of the limitations on thoughts, behaviours and boundaries dictated upon by the Koran and Hadiths.
“Vatican 2 is the done deal, and it’s a good thing. ” Hahaha, if by good you mean disintegration and fading into irrelevance in the modern world and extinction in its homeland (Europe) I guess you are right. All statistics shown so far point to a decline in the religious practice, a collapse in the moral even within the hierarchy and laypeople alike http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/01/18/europeans-de-baptize-church_n_1214256.html
The point of the video is that the Pope is sitting in Israel on a seat with an upside down cross.
I don’t think the Pope is anti-Christ that will be the person that will lead the pan Turanian/Turkic Empire in fact it was a Grey Wolf member that tried to kill John Paul 2.
@Robert Lindsay
The Vatican 2 council is the foundation of the modern church that traditional Catholics do not like.
“So you see the Catholics are ahead of the Muslims here.”
Probably the reason Muslims are always pissed off and blowing themselves up
I hate Catholicism but I hate it most for its opposition to youth in Asia.
Yet, some of those most parochial, dictatorial parents I’ve ever know were Catholic.
This extends to children who are disgustingly submissive or outright subversives. The Catholic church does not breeds apathy, not moderation.
*The Catholic church breeds apathy, not moderation.
Hence the vast legions of lapsed Catholics–and the “only on Easter and Christmas” Catholics.
I despise those (being the atheist that I am). My mom used to drag me to the special masses and I would vomit at the sight of the Christmas Catholics.
The Catholics in Mass (pun intended never thought I’d get to use that) are liberal, but attend Church weekly. The Church down the street gets a full house every sunday.
And you can’t masturbate in their dining room. Sucks.
LOLWut?
“The Catholic church also still espouses that its followers should eschew sexual activity outside of heterosexual marriage, including masturbation…”
Yes, but note that it is still a choice whether and how much of its docrines you want to take up in your lifestyle. The church no longer tries to force people to keep within its docrines, its diktats are merely advisory. The church is also more liberal than most other traditional faiths, it is willing to accept you and respect you as a human being, regardless of your ‘sins’.
Islam and Hinduism don’t accord the same level of acceptance, which goes a long way in suppressing creativity, free thinking and individualism in societies dominated by these two faiths. Neitzsche, Voltaire, Locke or Rosseau couldn’t have survived these societies.
I don’t agree that the post Vatican 2 Church opposes masturbation. I went to a website and a Catholic woman said she went to confession and confessed to masturbating and the priest wouldn’t even absolve her, as he said that after Vatican 2, the church no longer says it’s a sin.
Also since Vatican 2, homosexual orientation is no longer considered a sin, but homosexual behavior is. So they now allow priests into seminaries who admit to having a homosexual orientation. In fact, US seminaries are now hotbeds of male homosexuality since Vatican 2. Apparently they don’t do much to enforce the notion that homosexual behavior is sinful, since it’s epidemic in their own seminaries, and the Church doesn’t even seem to care!
Benedict recently said that the ban on artificial birth control was only because it interfered with heterosexual conception, which is the purpose of straight sex. In a recent interview, Benedict said that male homosexual prostitutes certainly would not be covered by a Church condom ban. He implied that the Church had no problem at all with gay men using condoms.
The church is not particularly finnicky about masturbation, since they understand that whether they oppose it or not, people will masturbate. As for whether it is considered a sin or not, it is a lot like pre-marital sex, some of the clergy accept it while some consider it a violation. Both sides have their own biblical quotes to back it up and each side has some verses that contradict those of the other. So it is really up to the person what he/she wants to live with.
For example, in the churches of the Indian state Kerela, where attitudes are a lot more conservative, catholic priests preach that pre-marital sex is a sin and a violation against the body, which apparently is a ‘temple of god’. While the churches in my own state Meghalaya, neither condone it nor oppose it, since there is no verse in the Gospel that specifically forbids premarital sex. The Catholic church today is largely populist, because it no longer has the authority to enforce what it preaches, so it just preaches what people like to hear.
‘The church no longer tries to force people to keep within its docrines, its diktats are merely advisory. ‘
Ohhhh I’d really have to disagree with this statement.
The Catholic church has its fingers all sorts of places it shouldn’t be that most people don’t know about.
Working in women’s healthcare in developing countries with population problems (as I do) the ‘influence’ of Catholic church is a HUGE barrier, legally & with its ‘advisory’ diktats.
There is an enormous demand for contraception (as you can well imagine) in these developing countries & the Catholic church is the biggest obstacle. Even in non-Christian & non predominantly Catholic countries.
A lot of long acting reversible hormonal contraceptive birth control drugs have been outright banned or stopped in development due to the Catholic influence. Depo-Provera & Norplant are good examples.
Acceptance of the use of ‘Emergency contraception’ (aka the ‘morning after pill) was another debacle fueled largely by the Catholic church.
Fair enough. I’ll reiterate. The church no longer has the kind of influence to force its adherents to toe the line, so it has a far more moderate approach that other major religions. I agree that the church has its noses where it shouldn’t, but again isn’t that the problem with religions in general?
I think it would be fun to attend a Catholic mass wearing a target taped to one’s ass.
Also, go into the confessional booth, and when the Priest slams back the veiled divider, ask him if he has any toilet paper and spray air freshener.
When you go to communion, as you take the wafer, spray some cheez-wiz on it.
One year a Catholic church in my town displayed a homemade manger, with Mary kneeling over Jesus, some kid prankster replaced Jesus with a cucumber.
That’s cool. He probably became a surfer. I’d have replaced it with a big, 12 inch rubber dildo that I spray painted black.
“He probably became a surfer.”
Skateboarding (in moving traffic, off the sides and hoods of cars), log rolling (with freshly cut trees) and fart lighting (kid had to steal copper samples out of the Chem lab because he thought he’d get an emerald flame.) What a bored kid won’t do.
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