New Article About the Peopling of India

A new article has come out in Nature Magazine dealing with the Peopling of India, a subject I have dealt with quite a bit on this site. The Indian nationals who hate the Aryan Invasion concept have been jumping up and down for joy over this article. I’m not sure where these people are coming from, but generally, it’s a silly, anti-scientific and reactionary place.

Their argument is usually that the Aryan Invasion could not have taken place since our Hindu texts say that it never happened. Well, there is not much to say to such a powerful scientific argument like that!

Those who oppose the Aryan Invasion theory are generally Far Rightwing Hindu nationalists or Hindutvas. They also tend to be associated with the higher castes, especially the Brahmins. One argument is an Indian nationalist one. This crazy line says that there was no Aryan invasion – instead this was a lie made up by the evil British colonialists to “divide the people of India.” As Hindutva fascism claims (falsely) to be a national unification project, as all such projects do, they rail against the “outsiders who divide our people.”

Problem with this argument is that the Indians themselves and the Hindus in particular had done a mighty fine job dividing up the Indian people themselves into many thousands of insane, cruel, backwards and anti-human caste structures.

Another crazy Indian nationalist argument is that there was no caste until the evil Brits came. Or there was caste before then, but it was nothing. The evil Brits came and made caste so much worse. This argument is favored with high castes, typically Brahmins. It’s dubious. Caste was probably much worse before the British came.

The British, civilized folks that they were, hated the animalistic, bestial, primitive caste system and tried to eliminate as part of the necessary mission of civilizing the Indians. This article notes that caste is as old as India, and that the British did not hoist it upon the unwilling heads of the innocent and pure Indians.

Another crazy Indian nationalist line is that there was no race structure in India. Race was invented in India by those evil Brits again. The Brits divided the peaceable, loving, brotherly and Kumbayaa-singing Indian people into two races, a northern race that appeared European or Aryan and a southern race that they called Dravidian.

There does seem to be something to the concept of a somewhat bimodal race structure in India. The people of the South are darker and have a different physical type than the Northern Indics, who look more Iranian or even European. Some say that the Dravidians are the remains of a Mediterranean Caucasian Race that moved into India 13-17,000 years ago. That seems reasonable to me.

This article turns that on its head and argues that all Indians are a mixture between North Indians and South Indians. The South Indians are more Asiatic types and the North Indians are a more European type, yet all of the Indian people are thoroughly mixed between the two. This also seems reasonable.

Articles about the piece, especially from the reactionary Brahmin-controlled Indian media, are crowing about “the death of the Aryan invasion theory.” But the Nature piece proclaims no such thing.

The Nature article claims that the South Indians came to India 70,000 YBP. The only remaining pure members of the South Indian group are the Negritos of the Andaman Islands. This part is reasonable enough. The piece also claims that the North Indians (or Aryans) came to India 45,000 YBP. This much is a real shocker, and I do not know what to make of this.

45,000 YBP, there were no real Caucasoid types anywhere. Further, skulls from even north India dated at 24,000 YBP look like Aborigines. So these North Indians must have looked like Aborigines at first. In fact, all Indians looked something like Aborigines until 8,000 YBP when they started transitioning to Caucasian types.

Anyway, there was an Aryan invasion. Or at least, a group of Indo-Aryans moved down from Kazakhstan into Iran, Kurdistan, Afghanistan, Tajikistan, the Caucasus, Pakistan and North India about 3,500 YBP. They all speak related languages that we can provably trace back to the Russian steppes. We can follow their movements archeologically as they moved down from Kazakhstan into North India.

Now whether or not these folks were “invaders” is open to question. Perhaps they were “migrants.” Maybe they were “undocumented workers.” Maybe they were going on an extended vacation down South. I haven’t the faintest idea. But there was clearly a movement of Indo-European speaking Indo-Aryan folks down from Kazakhstan into Central and South Asia 3,500 YBP. That’s a fact of history, and no sane person questions that. Nor does this paper call that into question.

Another argument that Indian nationalists are making is that Indians are a unique race, a separate race, not part of any other race. If you look at the data, that’s an interesting argument, but skull and genetic data (see Cavalli-Sforza for instance) show that Indians are a member of the Caucasian race, though they are one of the most divergent members of that group.

One interesting finding is that Gujaratis seem to form their own separate minor race in India and differentiate from all the others. I can’t explain that, but it may have something to do with stories about Scythians moving into that area 1,200 YBP.

One of the more sensible dissections of the article is here by Razib of GNXP Science Blogs. Razib is sounding a lot more sensible since he got his better writing gig at Science Blogs.

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201 Comments

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201 responses to “New Article About the Peopling of India

  1. WP

    “Anyway, there was an Aryan invasion. Or at least, a group of Indo-Aryans moved down from Kazakhstan into Iran, Kurdistan, Afghanistan, Tajikistan, the Caucasus, Pakistan and North India about 3,500 YBP. They all speak related languages that we can provably trace back to the Russian steppes. We can follow their movements archeologically as they moved down from Kazakhstan into North India.”

    No one really knows exactly where these Caucasoid ‘Aryans’ came from, the area(s) from whence the ‘Aryan invaders’ came from…some have placed them around Kazakhstan as you write, but others from the areas of what is now Ukraine, or even around the eastern Baltic Sea, or maybe even parts of Siberia/trans-Ural Russia — since they’ve recently found via DNA tests that some people living in prehistoric Siberia had white skin and non-brown eyes.

    • The Indo-Aryan homeland is pretty clearly in far northern Kazakhstan and around the same time, in Turkmenistan. Before that, they are with the rest of the IE folks in South Ukraine. There are no IE speakers up around the Baltics until IE splits up and starts moving into Europe. Before that, the Baltics peoples were part of “Old Europe” = pre-IE speakers.

      As far as the Whites in Siberia and the Urals, they may be Finno-Ugric speakers – ancestors of the speakers of Estonian, Finnish, Hungarian, etc.

      It’s all extremely confusing.

  2. Iyengar

    The media isnt Brahmin controlled at all!Infact brahmins in modern society face difficulty getting into colleges as most of the seats are reserved for Schedule castes/tribes i.e Dalits/Untouchables/Adivasis.Brahmins face reverse discrimination.High castes are of the same descent as Persians and Afghans and low castes are a mix of Europoid dark skinned migrants with East Asian paleolithic Australoids/Weddids.See the fact is all Caucasoid races have a common ancestor,possibly R1 and then split into r1a r1b r2 etc-so the same source but now they are like apples and pears.But I have to disagree on your claim about the transition to aborginal -> caucasian.Before high castes were pressed throughout North India,the country was spread with Europoid to aboriginal [i]dark skinned[/i] peoples.They were never driven to the south or anything but were made as low castes all over upon the ‘Indo Aryan’ arrival.Your typical ‘Indian’ is a mix between the two,but for sure certain phenotypes and genotypes occur most in specific castes.
    Good post Rob :)

    • That India was Aborigine like 8000 YBP and prior, and then transitioned to Caucasoid from 8000 YBP on is what is theorized by looking at Indian skulls.

      I’m pretty sure that the entire media must be run by high caste Indians. It’s got to be the case. I know that in the West, probably 98% of Indian journalists are high castes, often Brahmins. That’s why anything you read in the West about India is automatically seriously distorted.

      Sure there is AA now and reverse discrimination, but the low castes still have very little power and money. Almost none really.

      • poobathy

        Hi Robert:

        You hit the nail on the
        head mark (((U))) right on the forehead. (!)

        You’re absolutely right..!

        The “so called” brahmin mafia controls..
        not only the Indian press but also Indian educational and other vital institutions as well… (including archeology and genome research and so on)

        They are a minority community in southern India.. (about 3% of the total population)

        They constitute less than 4.1% of Indian population.

        ~ poobathy

  3. there must have been an aryan invasion or some kind of invasion from Europe. If not, all Indians would have looked aborigine.

    Most people in the South of India have caucasoid like facial structures except for the Tamils may be. But the upper caste Tamils are very caucasoid looking but the low caste tamils are very aborigine looking.

  4. Sunil Kumar

    Hi Rob,
    Your write-up is very interesting but you seem to be living in the 17th century when it comes to caste or you must be reading those books written by arm chair western journalists. Move on. India has changed a lot. Power equations among castes have changed so much that it might not be surprising to see Brahmins doing low jobs.

  5. Perez Christina

    That finding is not that surprising

  6. tulio

    Alpha, I actually though Christina Perez was just a normal person who happens to be interested in issues of race and anthropology, but after her more recent posts on her blogs, yes, she unabashedly racist. Even stormfront would ban posts such as her’s, and that’s saying a lot.

    I thought I recalled her saying in another post that her father is Afro-Venezuelan. Yet she’s on some rampage against black people. Weird! She’s obviously got a bad, bad case of Stockholm Syndrome.

  7. Uncle Milton

    To Rob:

    Dang, Christina, you’re pretty racist against Blacks huh?

    Where are the threads where she made racist statements..? One can not search on word press by the poster’s id.

    • Right here. She has removed one of them, but there’s plenty of choice stuff still up there. Oh well, I had always heard that Hispanics were way more racist against Blacks than we Whites are. More proof of that all the time.

    • deadcult

      This blogger http://v1jannn.wordpress.com/ commented on this post of hers: http://p6jun.wordpress.com/2009/09/27/are-black-people-more-related-to-apes-than-other-races/#comments

      Both blogs have similar content. Are they the same person?

    • I was wondering about that myself.

    • deadcult

      She just deleted one of her comments and one post from http://v1jannn.wordpress.com/ is gone. This seems to be her shadow blog.

    • Many Hispanics really hate black people.

      I know many hispanics who don’t like black people at all..

    • tulio

      “Many Hispanics really hate black people.

      I know many hispanics who don’t like black people at all..”

      Well this particular Hispanic was just last week saying that her father is Afro-Venezuelan. Given the bizarre behavior, I don’t know if this “Christina Perez” is a man or a woman or what lies this person may be saying about his or her ancestry.

      As for the comment about Hispanics hating blacks. Racism in Latin America is a different animal than say white racism in America. The racism in Latin America is usually not of the ideological variety, like you would find on Amren or Stormfront. There isn’t Hispanic equivalent of a neo-nazi movement that wants to exterminate blacks and Jews. Hispanic racism tends to be of the more Archie Bunker variety. Pretty much just based on pure xenophobia and ignorance. Hispanics that are well educated and have grown up with a variety of friends tend to be some of the least bigoted people I know. I’m black and I’d say the majority of my friends are Hispanic, and all these friends are staunchly PC and anti-racist. I mean if they even found out I was here dabbling around on a race realism site I’d probably be excommunicated from my social circle.

    • Racism in Latin America is a different animal than say white racism in America. The racism in Latin America is usually not of the ideological variety, like you would find on Amren or Stormfront. There isn’t Hispanic equivalent of a neo-nazi movement that wants to exterminate blacks and Jews. Hispanic racism tends to be of the more Archie Bunker variety. Pretty much just based on pure xenophobia and ignorance.

      This is generally true, but are you aware of the Hispanic gangs that are “ethnically cleansing” from their hoods down around LA? Pretty bad stuff. White people stopped doing that some time ago in this country.

    • tulio

      True. I mean to include all the gang turf battles between black and Hispanic gangs in L.A. That’s the root of the tension between the two in this region…the gangs.

  8. Uncle Milton

    To Rob:

    I was wondering about that myself.

    As I remember her original avatar was that of a very Nordic looking woman.. then it was changed to a dark haired Latina. She is decidedly an unknown quantity, at least to me.

  9. Perez Christina

    I actually think this new finding doesn’t make any sense at all.

    If there were no caucasoid types back 45,000 yrs ago, How come the modern North Indians and the modern South Indians have caucasian skulls?

    So, there must have been some type of invasion thousands of years ago.. If not, the present day Indians would have looked aborigine.

    According to this chick’s blog, it says dravidians are mediterranean and Indo aryans did come to India 3500 yrs ago.

    http://p6jun.wordpress.com/2009/09/28/india-is-the-most-diverse-country-in-the-world-after-africa/

    • I guess that the North Indians of 45,000 YBP looked sort of like Aborigines too, at least after they mixed with the Aborigine looking South Indian types already there. Those North Indians @ 45,000 YBP may well have been proto-Caucasians, but no one seems to know what those people looked like. Some think that they looked something like Africans.

      They were 2/3 proto-East Asian (maybe an Ainu type) and 1/3 proto-African (maybe a Masai type). If these early North Indians looked something like Ainus, that would explain why they look Aborigine, but Ainus look sort of Aborigine.

  10. Perez Christina

    I mean my blog..

  11. Perez Christina

    This article also says so that dravidians are mediterranean and there was aryan invasion back in th day in India.

    http://www.culturopedia.com/Tribes/tribesintro.html

  12. Iyengar

    I dont think there was an Aryan Invasion theory.A bunch of light skinned nomadic barbarians overthrowing an aborigine civilization is not mentioned in either Vedic or Dravidic texts.Even the so called ‘Dravidians’ or whatever do not have any memory of this in texts and among supporters of this theory,presently in India,only Dalit propoganda supports this theory that a bunch of barbarians spoilt their little heaven.Otherwise,historically know one acknowledged this.I think it’s sort of mundane to think meat eating barbarians suddenly became disciplined and intelligent and went onto creating vedas,puranas,brahmanas,etc.Hard drinkers and beef eaters went onto become vegetarian Brahmins?Yeah right :) Although KshatriyasBesides the Saraswati river dried up before these ‘Aryans’ even came to India.Then why is it mentioned so many darn times as an important and holy river.Why?-Cause these chaps been there longer than most people think,they were descendants of the warriors and priests of the Indus Valley Civilization.An Aryan Revolt is a more appropriate term as there may have been a possible reformation of society rather than an invasion by barbarians.I mean,we see the same phenotypes in High Caste Hindus,Pakis,Afghans and Persians.Of course Weddid and Semite admixture is present in the respective regions.
    PS:Why does Christina Perez cite her own blog as proof?lol.

  13. deadcult

    Here is an interesting video on Vedic history:

  14. Iyengar

    Exactly what I’ve been saying-it was a indigenous reformation!The Indus people were West Eurasian Indics – not Nordic or Alpine.If they hated these Dravidians so much why did they adopt Pashupati as Shiva and the mother godess as Durga?Cause it was a continuation rather than a merge with this so called aboriginal culture of course.
    About the genetic research : The present population of Punjab showed affinity with the skeletal remains of the Indus – Saraswati sites.
    Punjabi’s = Primarily/Predominantly Indic/Irano Afghan.Who were these so called invaders who had no racial impact on the country but drastically changed their culture?And why did they lay emphasis so much on the Saraswati which dried up before they invaded?The Brahmi script evolved from the Indus script
    Swastika is found on the inscriptions :3
    Ila = SCORE
    The intial Brahmin is a dark skinned Europoid.
    At 1:30,the Bramin with the kudumi(pony tail like lump of hair) on the right of the Indologist , thats what I’ve been trying to say,Europoid but not White.The second time,the guy on the far right is phenotypically Indic.

    Amazing video mirroring what I’ve been trying to explain all along,thank you Deadcult :)

    • You guys are just high caste Hindu nationalists – Indian nationalists. Most of you are probably Brahmins.

      There was a movement of Indo-Aryan types down from Andronovo into various places including North India. Almost all scientists on Earth now accept this as obvious fact. It’s only not accepted by some anti-scientific nationalists in India for the usual jingoistic and chauvinistic and emotional reasons.

      They base their argument that there was no movement from Andronovo to North India on…get this! Hinduism! The Hindu religion! I kid you not. That is where all this stuff about Saraswati River comes from. You know something? It doesn’t matter what the Hindu holy books say about anything, especially history or anthropology. I don’t know any anthropologists who rely on the Bible as their guide to history, genetics and anthropology.

      There is another factor here – that Dalits have adopted an Aryan Invasion notion that high caste Indo-Aryans came down and ruined their little paradise. Well, no one knows anything about that, and I don’t think there is good evidence one way or another about how the caste system developed or even about how the Hindu religion developed.

      So it is perfectly possible to accept a movement of Indo-Aryan speakers down from Andronovo to North India 3,500 years ago while still rejecting the Dalit line on the grounds of insufficient evidence.

      When it comes to this sort of thing, nationalism just ruins everything. Nationalism is the death of all scientific thought in history, anthropology, genetics, you name it. Once nationalism infects your brain, for the most part you can’t really think anymore. Nationalism has destroyed the careers of more than a few anthropologists, the Dean of Indonesian Anthropology being the most notable example.

  15. Iyengar

    Ok,so what was the racial type of these Indo Aryans?

    • Iyengar

      Read my last comment on More on Hinduism,Race and Caste.
      I explained what may have happened despite Whites and Indids sharing the same Y Dna haplogroup

  16. Iyengar

    And sorry,you’re pointing the finger at the wrong person.I am a race realist and shun Euro centric ideas,as you can see its been a utter failure with mere speculation.

  17. racerealism

    I second with iyengar. Only eurocentrics can divide people into two major races like ani and asi (analogous to blacks and whites in europe and africa, a binary race structure). infact india is a multitude of various tribes that (may) have come from africa at several periods of time and evolved into today’s indians.

  18. Iyengar

    Yeah,it was a Neolithic migration of the West Eurasians.The difference between Indids and Europeans is that we are hot climate evolved Europoids whereas they are cold climate evolved.And we do have Weddid/Indo Australoid admixture.
    The first inhabitants of India were Indo Australoids and they spoke Para Munda.Then primitive West Eurasians(who were dark skinned) migrated to the Arabian plate from North Africa and moved further into India and mixed with the Australoids.Thats why ‘Dravidians’ are pred.Indo Australoid with Europoid admixture.They dont look fully Australoid.
    Then the Neolithic migration of the West Eurasians to Iran(Elamites),then to Afghanistan,then further onto Pakistan(Indus Valley) and finally into North India(Vedic civilization)

    • I agree with most of what you say here. Thx for this. But I think the last movement was from the Russian steppe SE to Afghanistan, Iran, Pakistan and India 3,500 YBP = Indo-Aryan IE speakers.

  19. Iyengar

    I’m kinda thinking Central Asia ,around Kazakshtan,but Russia will do as well , highly possible , since that is the speculated area of origin for R1a if Im not wrong?

  20. Iyengar

    Orientalids/Arabids-Armenoids, Europeans and Indids/Irano-Afghans share their ancestry via the West Eurasian ydnas and mtdnas

    Mongoloids trace their mtdna to the macro branch M mtdna which they share with Australoids.

    Hence Low castes more related to east asians and high castes Europeans

    • Sure, low castes they are more related to Asians, no problem. But they are clearly Caucasoids if you look at the charts. There should be too much debate about that. They are very strange Caucasoids, but they are Caucasoids. Maybe it makes sense to see them as “ancient Caucasoids” due to their strangeness.

  21. deadcult

    This paper hints at Indian origin of R1a1 haplogroup:

    http://www.nature.com/jhg/journal/v54/n1/full/jhg20082a.html

    • Yeah that’s quite clear. Those idiots are just using it like Hitler did. Aryan = Nordic in Nazi thinking. It’s too bad, because now they have killed the word Aryan for good, and it’s a good word to use to talk about, say, Sikh Punjabi types. I had a Sikh Punjabi doctor and I told him he was an Aryan and he got upset. He thought I was a Nazi. The real Nazis, no way do they include North Indians in their Ayranness.

  22. deadcult

    Very interesting article on the Indus Valley Civilization from Mathilda’s blog.

    http://mathildasanthropologyblog.wordpress.com/2008/03/11/the-harappans-aka-the-indus-valley-civillisation-ivc/

    If you look at the map, the majority of sites are far away from the Indus river. A lot of them fall near the now dried up Saraswati river.

    • That’s pretty interesting. Doesn’t this line up with Hindu / Hindutva mythology which places the origins of the Indian people up around that river?

      I don’t know much about the Harappans, but they are pre-IE, correct? I also think that up by the Saraswati was where the first Indo-Aryan types from Kazakhstan settled when they moved south. The first Indo-Aryan settlements in the region are way to the north up around Chitral and the Hunza.

    • deadcult

      I believe that the entire region from the east of Turkey/Iraq to north/west India formed an Indo-Aryan racial and cultural continuum, and a lot of back and forth migration happened. It is indeed possible that when Saraswati river dried up, the surviving populations migrated in all directions and spread out to more hospitable places. According to the above post, some similarities have been found between the Indus Valley and Vedic cultures. The so called Aryan invaders were probably descendants of people who had migrated earlier, and were now returning.

  23. Iyengar

    What assholes some guys can be,by saying that present day Afghan and Paki population is the result of Indo Europeans mixing with some local people.What the hell Pakistan,Afghanistan and Persia is as pure as the Indid race gets

    • Yes they are relatively pure Indo-Aryan types in that area. The Afghans and North Indians have also mixed in somewhat with Mongoloids = Asians, though. The North Indians are about 14% Asian on genes. A lot of Afghans also look like they have some Asian in them. I’m not sure what’s going on there, but that part of the world has been a mixing ground for Caucasoid and Mongoloid types for quite some time now.

      One of the problems with this statement is that no one knows what the pre-Indo-Aryan types looked like in that region. But it looks like they may have been some sort of Elamite (ancient Middle Easterners) types. I’m not sure anyone quite knows that those folks looked like either. What’s interesting is that if you go back 12,000 YBP, those pure White Nordic/”Aryans” of Europe all looks something like Arabs. Their genes look like Arabs too. The modern European appearance with blond hair and blue eyes is a recent innovation of the past 9,000 years.

      • India

        Well, it’s not a total surprise that Afghans, Pakistanis and Northwest Indians have some Mongoloid in them given Genghis Khan and the Mongolians left a big impact on the DNA of the whole Central Asia and part of the Northwest part the Indian Subcontinent. And when you have people of different races living in the same region, you simply cannot avoid the DNA of one race type entering another. It just happens if you intend or not. Also, in countries like Afghanistan, different race types mix quite easily because Islam prohibits any castes and promotes a very egalitarian society, so as long they are Muslims, race is not an issue when it comes to marriage. This is why in the some villages in Afghanistan you will find people that have the Classic Indian look while others that look almost white while still others that look Mongolian.

        The Mongoloid genes in the Eastern parts of India is not Mongolian (unlike Northwest India)but rather some type of Tibetan.

  24. Iyengar

    Elamites are Indids and the major sub race is Iranid they were the primary inhabitants of Sumeria(J2 y dna) and Elam(pred.J2 with R1a assortments) and
    Persians share the same type of R1a ydna as Afghans, Pakis and Indians.
    I read this paper a while ago and here’s what it says about Iranian haplogroups(I copypasted the westr eurasian/indid ones):

    Indid Y dna in Persia
    R1a – 17% , J2 – 21% and R*/R2 – 3% = 41%
    Indid mtdna in Persia
    West eurasian – 90%
    40% of Persia = confirmed Indids on both father and mother lineage
    Persia was the ancient Indid hub the home of the Elamites.
    Sumeria Elam and Indus are brother civilizations.
    J2 Y dna seems to be a very civilization oriented y dna,as it led to the creation of Sumeria,Elam,Indus,Greco-Roman and Egyptian civilizations.
    On the ydna Persians are genetically mixed between Indids/Elamites [R1a + R*/R2 + J2 ydna] ,Europids [R1b ydna] , Caucasids [G ydna] , Mongoloid [NOP ydna]and Somalid [E1b1]
    the later invaders from Assyria, Arabia, Caucasus, Somalia and Central Asia raped the Elamite women and hence the father lineage is varied in comparison to the relatively homogenous mother lineage
    ELAMITES = IRANO AFGHANS
    They arent dark skinned caucasoids just a hot climate evolved ones

    • Federal Government

      Go and join your “Genetic Nation”, where your people are being aptly annihilated by the Jihadists; who are ending the “Progressive Evolution” of your community ipso facto. Stay there, and loose your head! Or, go be a “Genetic Foreigner”, and expose yourself to the risk of assimilation. Those are yours/your ilk’s choices. Beyond this though, the tide of fate has made its mind up: Your people have been sentenced to join oblivion! x

  25. The reason why Gujratis stand out from the rest of india is because they too belong to haplogroup R1A atleast parcially, unlike North indians whom belong to haplogroup R2.

    I also believe Haplogroup L markers are much lower in Gujratis. South indians have it the most and so do north indians to a certain degree.

    But bottom line, yeah Gujratis are more Pakistanis geneticly like Kashmiris. Iran also has R1A & R1B along Y-lines but a much higher freqeuncy of the Arab haplogroup J1

  26. M

    Hard drinkers and beef eaters went onto become vegetarian Brahmins?
    Hard Drinkers? What about Somaras?

  27. Rj

    “the virtual absence of M458 chromosomes outside Europe speaks against substantial patrilineal gene flow from East Europe to Asia, including to India, at least since the mid-Holocene. ”

    Separating the post-Glacial coancestry of European and Asian Y chromosomes within haplogroup R1a
    Underhill et al. – Nov 2009

    You’ll have to do better than this Lindsay. European colonialism is a relatively recent phenomenon – Europeans were still cavemen when the east was very advanced. We know that whites had a terrible inferiority complex when they ‘discovered’ that other civilizations were way ahead of theirs – so they did what they do best – steal it, and then claim it as their own. We see the same happening everyday in the news. Science, language, mathematics and all the things Europeans claim that are their inventions have been borrowed from the east. :)

    • The similar R1 chromosomes in both Eastern Europe and Northern India are explained by a movement of Indo-European speakers from their homeland in Southern Russia to both Eastern Europe and Northern India thousands of years ago. There was no movement from E Europe to India or vice versa. There was movement from S Russia to both places.

      We have no inferiority complex at all towards the East, most especially you Indians. We really do feel that we are superior, at the very least culturally. Or at least I do. And I don’t think many Whites feel inferior towards much of anyone. We have strong supremacist tendencies and feelings of superiority.

      That is not really true. When the Brits came to India, they found that “Indian science” was in large measure a joke. They believed complete nonsense and had not yet discovered things that the West had discovered long before. So the Brits ordered the Indians to get the “Indian science” crap out of the curriculum and replace it with the superior British science texts. The Indian nationalists like you are still steaming.

      Cultural diffusion happens. Get over it already. In both ways, West to East and vice versa.

      Nice try, Hindutva.

  28. Rj

    I’m not a nationalist nor a supporter of Hindutva but you’re free to delude yourself whenever someone has an opposing point of view if you wish. You claim to look at things in a scientific manner yet cling onto an archaic school of thought invented by fanatic Christians with a racist agenda, and you accuse others of being radical. There is absolutely no evidence to support the Aryan Invasion Theory – whether it’s claimed the ‘Aryans’ entered India in ‘ripples’ or waves from southern Russia or the even perhaps the North Pole. In fact most of the precious little evidence that even exists today points to a migration in exactly the opposite direction. Now that the hypothesized link between haplogroup R1a and the spread of IE languages from the west to the east is broken(R1a is confirmed to be the oldest and most diverse in South Asia, and decreases in age and diversity further west) some new theories have to be cooked up fast to keep Eurostanis happy, because there happens to be no archaeological, genetic or ‘linguistic’ evidence to support any theory of west to east movement by IE speakers. White supremacists are supreme at inventing and discovering stuff so I’m pretty certain that there will be no end to new theories or rehashed ones popping up every now and then.

    • The truth is that ALL serious scientists agree that Indo-Aryan speakers came down from Southern Russia into India bearing the Indo-Aryan languages. We have tons of evidence, linguistic, archeological and even genetic, to support the claim. The only people on Earth who reject it are Indian nationalists, typically Hindu nationalists and typically high castes. The Brahmins are the worst of all.

      The Out of India Theory for IE languages, which posits an IE homeland in India, is utterly ridiculous. It’s only supported by a few crackpot loons, 100% of whom are the above.

      All this goes along with the laughable notion, parroted again by the same crazies, that India was a great civilization, the greatest on Earth, that was cruelly destroyed by evil British nationalists and replaced by an inferior Western culture. The same crowd despises Western science and Western medicine in favor of the idiot Indian versions of same.

      Amongst serious scholars, the debate is long over on this question.

      I believe it is R1b anyway that is found in such quantities in North India and E Europe.

      I’m going to just end this debate right now because I refuse to have a battle of wits with an unarmed man. The Aryan Input Deniers in the same boat as Holocaust Deniers, Creationists, Global Warming Deniers and other laughingstocks.

      You’ve been parroting Hindutva and Indian nationalist lines all along, yet you deny that you are one. The truth is that Hindu nationalism is part and parcel of the Indian ruling class and upper class and is distributed across all groups. The Congress Party and India’s fake national heroes (mostly scumbags like Gandhi and Nehru) have all been bearers of this poisonous fascist idiocy.

  29. Rj

    Haha. ‘Aryan Input Deniers in the same boat as Holocaust Deniers’ – I like that. It seems like you are at wits end. I can imagine why you would want to end this debate. Check your facts. R1b is almost non-existent in India and has very low frequencies in E Europe. R1b probably originated in Central Asia and moved west – it would explain the barbarism of Western Europeans – very similar to the nomadic hordes that exist in Central Asia till this day.

    I agree though that the debate about AIT is over among old school ‘scholars’ because the theory has more or less been demolished. I suggest you stop living in the past and get your facts straight.

  30. Are most North Indians descendants of these Aryans or only a few North Indians?

    What about South Indians? what is their ancestry? Are they australoid or a mix of something else?

    • The North Indians have more of the Aryan type in them. The South Indians have that type too, but they also have a lot more of the Dravidian. No one is sure what that is, but it’s either an Australoid-Aryan mix or its an ancient Caucasoid from the Middle East. The only real Australoids are the Tamil and Veddoid types that resemble Aborigines.

  31. Do these pics of South Indians look like they have australoid in them? I am asking because I heard many people saying South Indians are australoids or a mix but these people don’t look australoid to me..or Do they? Also can you delete the links to those pics after you answer my question? Thanks !

    • Those are the Dravidians! No one knows what those people are. They are not Australoids by genes or by skulls. How was the Dravidian created? No one knows. They are either a combination of Aryan + Australoid or they are the remnants of some ancient Caucasoid race. Anyway, if they have Australoid in their background, it’s nothing new. So do Japanese. The point is that those people are not Australoid types anymore.

      They are Dravidians, Caucasoids by skull and genes. I suspect that they may be the remnants of some very ancient Caucasoid type.

      Some of those Dravidian type women are really good looking though, I will say that. It’s actually a handsome race.

    • I have pics of lot of these Dravidians.. they don’t seem to fit the Australoid category.. at least to me

      • Aegon

        Actually it have become normal stereotyping in india to consider south indians as african..infact we do look few shades darker from north indian counter parts by majority

        most of the north indian look very indian..except punjabis even among punjabis there are two division jats and non jats…jats ,khatris are the one who look typically iranians..rest of the punjabis look typically indian

        if u notice the history of north west india..they had lots of invasion in recent time period..especially from persian kings

        present punjabi jats and rajasthanis are admixtures of persians and anicent admixture of aryans and dravidians…rest of the north india look brown like other indians

    • They are not Australoids.

      They are basically Caucasians, even though they look pretty different. If you look at their faces though, they look pretty Caucasoid. A lot of them just look like White people who have been out in the sun too long, lol.

      I wish people would stop calling those people Australoids. It’s not really correct.

      • India

        Some of this is due to North Indians like myself (though not me personally) that tries to enforce the idea of racial superiority in India over the generally darker skinned South Indians. But the truth is most South Indians look very Caucasoid to me except they are a few shades darker. Its only some that resemble Austroloids, and even then the Austrolod features do not dominate in most of these people. it’s only some tribals that look very , and others Austro/Asiatic in Central India.

        The only difference is South Indians look a more ancient Caucasoid type but perhaps with higher degree of Asian in their DNA. They have a different type of Asian in them compared to the North where any Mongoloid admixture is of the Tibetan variety towards the East and Central Asian Mongolian variety in theNorthwest.

      • Aegon

        Well there is nothing like racial fight between north and south indians..generally there would be some linguistics fight….

        cast system is prevailent all over india…north indian and south indian weddings are not such a bigger issue..untill ppl from both side marry from lower caste

        yes even in TN if girl love a guy from lower cast…she will be killed in the name of honour…infact cast fanaticism is still prevailant in villages all over india….

      • Aegon

        I wonder why u describe tamils as common australoid race..even among tamils there is huge diversity…there are tamils who are non brahmin look fair yet…

        below women is a non brahmin tamil women
        from upper cast..these womens belong to warrior community of TN ie is descendants of ancient tamil kings

        its better to use australoid as race instead of branding tamils as common australoid race

  32. I went to South India last year with one of my Indian friends and I took photos of lot of these Dravidians.. I am very interested in their culture though.

    Here is the Photobucket link to the pics of more Dravidians if you are interested. Also make sure to delete the link to the album after viewing it.. I am afraid if someone will steal these pics.

    • Ganesh Sharma

      I need my observation and details should be published in full which only confirms sincere and open discussion.

  33. Ganesh Sharma

    I do not know still those Euros propagating those false Aryan Invasion theory because,I think, it helps their supremacist agenda.
    It simply shows their foolish ego and ignorance besides their belief that they can fool others for long time.

    All modern archeology proves that Vedic culture existed in India atleast in the past 10000 years.
    Besides,modern and recent genetic studies also disproved those fake Aryan Invasion theory.
    Westerners are telling that there is similarity between North Indian and Western euros genetically.
    This similarity also very much there, even if those Aryan migrated out of India.
    All modern genetic studies proves that R1a haplogroup considered as Aryan,native to India.
    Simply,telling steppe origin of Aryans is just so much idiotic.
    In fact,geologists and glaciologists confirm that Europe was not inhabitable till 5000 years ago.But,confirm that congenial atmosphere for civilization existed only in Africa and Asia.

    In Rigveda,the unchanged text, a lot of information are there for the migration various Aryan groups out of India which fully tally with all modern variety of people classified as Indo-Europeans.

    The dried Saraswathi discovery in 1996 as per Rigveda exactly in all aspects pushed the age of Rigveda 6000BC or above.
    The scientific dating on the river paleochaneels both Indian and western experts confirms that the river dried in 1900BC.
    As per the Aryan Invasion theory,Aryans after invading India(at that time no Saraswathi river never existed as for as Aryans concerned) praise that Saraswathi river in their Vedas which they have never seen with their eyes like mighty,holy,mightier than all other rivers.

    Here is the verses from Rigveda itself parsing Saraswathi river.Still,many verses are there.
    Anybody,can guess they exactly telling a mighty river.

    Ambitame Naditame Devitame Sarasvati Aprashastaa Eva Smasi Prashastim Amba Naskrudhi (RV 2: 16:41)

    It says that the Sarasvati was superior to all the other rivers, best of the mother rivers as the Sarasvati was the main source of the prosperity and survival and was the life line of the inhabitants residing over there on the flood plain. The Sarasvati was also best of the goddesses as it used to bring prosperity in tremendous. The text describes its flow white in complexion indicating it was a glacial fed river.

    When in spate the might of river was sweeping away all the other waters and was mightiest among all the other rivers.

    Prayaa Mahimna Mahinsu Chikite Dhumnebhiranya Apasaampastma
    Rath eva Bruhati Vibhvane Krutopastutya Chikitushaa Sarasvati.(RV: 6:61:13)

    Rig Veda clearly mentions that the Sarasvati had its origin in the Himalaya and not in the Siwalik Hills. It clearly mention that the

    Ekachetaat Sarasvati Nadinaam Suchiryati Giribhya aa Samudrat.
    (RV :VII :95:2)
    This is conformed by the work of puri. The renowned glaciologist (Puri.1998 per commu.)

    All archeology disprove Aryan Invasion theory.All genetic theory conducted in India till date disprove Aryan Invasion theory.
    These are most reliable expert details.

    In addition to this,ancient Sanskrit texts give very long genealogy of kings called Solar or ‘Re’ dynasty kings.
    The Egyptian founder Pharaoh Aha Manja appears in this list with full details besides many many generation of his forefathers before him.Sanskrit text confirm his migration to settle in Egypt.
    These also confirm much antiquity to Vedic Aryans in India.

    Recent genetic study confirms R1a people as ancestors of Northern India (ANS) aka Aryans was present in India 40,000 years,while Dravidians aka ancestors of south Indians(ASI) were present 65000 years in the South India.Study confirmed that original close Dravidian now only in Andaman islands who are called by name ‘Ongees.
    Study also confirmed that there is no Pure Dravidian in main land India as of now.Still,even though, they are seclusive and secure, have primitive uncivilized culture.
    So,Dravidians had superior culture is simply fraud and myth.
    Why this pure Ongees Dravidians have no superior culture?
    Again,genetic study also proved that Southern migration of Dravidians by South sea which debunked completely Northern to South migration theory by Dravidians as myth.

    So,as per the genetic study, the North was occupied by Aryans from the past 40,000 years.
    So, clearly Harrappans are Vedic Aryans only.Besides,Saraswathi river discovery confirms the above and made experts to call Harappan civilization as Indus-Saraswati river( vedic) civilization.

    All clearly point to the fact that Aryans were in India for the past 40,000 years in India.From here only they migrated to all places including Europe.
    This is the truth!
    Not only that those founders Sumerian and Egyptian civilization were ancient Vedic Aryans from India.
    Lot of Sanskrit records are there to confirm the above.
    If,,even after these variety of modern scientific proofs, if any westerner claim those foolish Aryan Invasion theory in India, keeping in mind those Hitleric blond Definition,that simply shows his foolish ego and fraud!
    Skin color never change the truth!!

    So,Aryans invaded India around 2000BC aka Aryans Invasion theory is the greatest fraud in the entire human history.
    I expect,atleast hereafter, those protagonists of the fake Aryan Invasion theory, update their knowledge to know the truth!
    They have to stop spreading the lies!

  34. India

    India may well be the birthplace of whites and East Asians. It is from India these people migrated out.

    So, the Aryan invasion theory is nonsense.

    • Wade in MO

      “India may well be the birthplace of whites and East Asians. It is from India these people migrated out.

      So, the Aryan invasion theory is nonsense”

      LOL Gee, thanks for your thorough explanation based on cited fact. Unfortunately you’re still wrong. The aryans did invade…from space.

      So the aryan invasion theory is totally true.

  35. whothewhatnow

    I also read the paper regarding the Ancestral North Indian (ANI) and Ancestral South Indian (ASI) groups that the Indian Population is an admixture of.

    This sounds plausible enough, but I have two questions:

    1. The ASI group would be what, Negrito or Australoid? Is there even a difference?

    2. When you say North Indians looked like aborigines till ~8000 years ago , are you are basing this on skull types? I am interested in reading any studies relating to this, and would appreciate any links. Also, is there any agreement on what would the people of the Indus Valley civilization have looked like?

  36. Amit

    Maxmuller believed that world was created 4000 B.C. (as par bible ) and then there was a flood (in bible) so aryan invasion can not be earlier to 1500 B.C. , this is basis of your “Scientific ” Aryan invasion , when Harappa was discovered the british archeologists connected it with myth of Aryan invasion and thus this false theory has got into academia , we are a much older culture , maxmullers letters are proof that he was aiming to malign hindu texts and make the educated india christian , it is self evident , maxmullers letters are published ,
    and when not a single word in a Hindu texts says that Aryan came from somewhere else , we don’t have to believe in this 19th century fraud made by superstitious christian

  37. Ganesh Sharma

    Simply,telling those details from modern archaeology and genetics as Hindutva as it is not compatible with one’s personal preconceived egoistic notions,what ts the name to be given for those Western egoistic bull shits!!

    Instead of branding some one with our egoistic connotations better one should point out where is the fallacy in the given details of others and should disprove with their modern verifiable and expert details.

  38. Orion J.

    Hi Robert,
    Interesting site. I am quite suprised that the vast quantities of Genetic Archaeological data coming out is not being used here. Rather lots of commentators keep relying on quite suspect and biased essays that are often very far from the mark. You might want to start reviewing genetic data on 23andme.com and other gene testing sites that have collected a large data set to work with. My parents are both from Punjab (Sikhs) here is my gene data: 96% European (genes), 4% Asian. Highest Global Similarity Central Asians, Second highest Northern Europeans. The futher south, and East you travel and the far higher the Asian Genes component. The Brahmin non-Brahmin caste aspect does not seem to be a significant filter here. Rather geographical N-W higher European component, with the highest being in the Sikhs (for India) generally speaking.
    Regards,
    Orion

  39. Orion J.

    @AEGON
    Aegon your post of Sept 25th below seems to fit in with the genetic data in studies:
    Regards,
    Orion

    September 25, 2010 at 11:46 AM

    Actually it have become normal stereotyping in india to consider south indians as african..infact we do look few shades darker from north indian counter parts by majority

    most of the north indian look very indian..except punjabis even among punjabis there are two division jats and non jats…jats ,khatris are the one who look typically iranians..rest of the punjabis look typically indian

    if u notice the history of north west india..they had lots of invasion in recent time period..especially from persian kings

    present punjabi jats and rajasthanis are admixtures of persians and anicent admixture of aryans and dravidians…rest of the north india look brown like other indians

  40. Hello Rob,Im a north indian muslim
    here are some of my pics,Do you think I could pass for a euro and if what type?

    https://fbcdn-sphotos-f-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-ash4/268822_253231991357538_419364_n.jpg.

    and

  41. Klonden

    You, Robert, may recognise my IP address. However please don’t block me out, those last few comments i made was when i was drunk i think and recent posts have interested me

  42. Klonden

    Also, do not assume i’m a child because of the poor quality of this and my previous post.

  43. Aksumite

    Come on, you just said recently what you said in one of your replies to Coward. I’m being honest when i say i’m interested in your blog. I’ve got nothing else to do but study and play video games until i start university in September, and over there i’ll be studying even more. One more chance please!

  44. Aksumite

    I’ve missed out going to Uni last year because the Uni i registered with didn’t tell the Student Loans Company I was attending.

  45. Aksumite

    I know i’m on the wrong post page, but the open topic page crashes my computer for some reason so i’m “pleading” here.

    • Sorry, guess I need a new Open Topic page. And welcome back to the site, my fine Black friend.

      • Another thing here rob,Though my community is largely muslims they have historically been hindus of either brahmin or kshatriya origins who were converted to islam.I hail form the indo-gangetic plains and though invasions did occur there.They werent at the same frequencies as in the northwest.Though it may common for punjabis and pakistanis to have forign blood.I dont see how it should penetrate into our genepool.Also I’d read that most aryans had setteled along the indo gangetic plains.Any idea?

  46. Ok,So finally what do you have to say about him?

  47. hello robert im aman heres my photo would i be mistaken for european?

  48. Sir,what features does my uncle have?

  49. chinmayi R.C

    https://scontent-a-mxp.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-frc3/t1.0-9/1474407_1387406481510155_1677818846_n.jpg …hey robert i am new too ur website ! people where talking bout u tht it’s a awesome website go nd check ..so went ! nd i really loved ur website ….I just had one question people say i look too indian is it true ?

    • Thank you very much my dear! You are right – this is a great website!

      As for you? You look “too Indian?” LOL, not sure, but I like those Indian girls who look like you. I think they look great. I have seen a number of them around here who look like you. It’s a good phenotype. You are heavily Caucasoid. You also look a lot like a lot of the Hispanic girls we have around here – you could almost be mistaken for one.

  50. Robert,I mean serioulsy?
    The girl who looks 100% indian could be mistaken for hispanic?I thought this was a great site and you were a good anthropologist.My uncle has been mistaken for circassian many times and you say he looks “too indian” lol i just wanted your opinioon on that.I was really expecting some good replies form you regarding shad and my uncle but you were like indian bullshit and us iranians felt dejected.

  51. hi there robert lindsay,
    I am amans cousin brother?This photo of me is pretty old but i still look a lot like this i am the small kid.Since you ruled out the possibilities of him beng a european what about me then?I am sure I’ll pass right?

    • Wow! Amazing photo. You are an Indian Muslim? You look 100% White. There were a lot of European White kids around who looked like you when I was a kid. Pretty amazing phenotype for India.

      • Haha thanks robert,anyways what european nationality could i be mistaken for or go for because im prettysick of india and its culture.I’ve got a lot of hindu neighbours and they wont let me live in peace.It would also be great meeting you in person!

        • Rahul

          Good that hatred is stemmed at such a young age, Long way to go!!! Incredible India and Indians….

  52. Hello robert this is not my brother,Iam also amans cousin,I’ve been excited about the way you describe my familys phenotype.How do you think of me?

  53. rOBERT,so are the aryan indians considered white in the us?

    • LOL, unfortunately not really, but most people don’t care one way or the other. Some of the saner people will tell you that they look like Caucasians. We have a lot of Punjabis in my town, and some of them look amazingly White or European. I have met a few of them who looked so White I thought they were Europeans!

  54. and robert,How do you assess them?

  55. and also these people?

  56. Robert Hullo,
    What are the phenotypes of these two indian actors?

    • They are simply Europid Whites, are they not?

      • Yea,But I shared this with a british friend and he said that they were white but not white enough?

        • He is wrong! He is a Nordicist. I am friendly to the idea of Pan-Aryanism. Whites of the world unite. Not to be White Supremacists or anything like that, but more to feel a sense of solidarity with each other in our shared heritage the same way that pro-Black, pro-Hispanic and pro-Asian groups do. A non-racist grouping of people with a common heritage getting together to celebrate their shared history and culture.

          Personally, I think being White is just boss. And I’d like to invite as many people to the party as possible!

      • Batterytrain

        These guys are obviously not Europid, even by looking at them from a European point of view they are not European looking. It’s more like a Eurasian-Iranid-Indid look that separates them from a classic Europid Italian/Greek/Medish phenotype and these guys have particular traits that gives off their non-European origins.

        Even in Russia, which has been a gateway gauge point for non-European invaders into Europe and actually were the first to invent the term “white”, these guys would stand out and be discernible from their features from a Europid looking person from somewhere like Southern Russia, the Balkans, Southern Ukraine where the Aryan Med phenotype is really frequent in that part of world. If “white” means Europid then these guys are not “white”!

        • Historia Nerd

          Yup agree Batterytrain. They have sharp features that are common in Caucasoids, but their skin color and some of their Asiatic features gives it away. Through them into Greece and maybe one or two of them may blend. The rest may be easily identified as Pakistani or Indian or Iranian or something. If you threw these people in a multicultural pot like North America or South America, then they could be mistaken for “white.” Otherwise they look a bit off.

  57. Robert lindsay,
    Could you please comment on this phenotype,

  58. No robert lindsay thats not what I meant,How did you identify that he is an Indian?

  59. Bod

    Heelo Robert I new to this site.Your phenotype analysis is what attracts me the most to this site.I am usually busy but I’ve taken this time to post a photo of my cousins son,Do you think he could be white?
    FYI-I am a Pakistani

    https://fbcdn-sphotos-e-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-xaf1/v/t1.0-9/37926_144594062221332_647320_n.jpg?oh=47a89e1c86b18f1969199686a11b5f23&oe=54242CD5&__gda__=1411967996_6386e22c15f936da7939690bd46797d8

  60. Robert lindsay,Do the ‘WHITE looking’ Punjabis look really european or is it just that you exaggerate a lot.Even hrithik roshan or kareena kapoor wont pass for europeans(I am greek).Some nutjob once commented that hrithik looks greek.Thats just so laughable because he doesnt.I’ve seen more punjabis then you could ever have since I’ve been to Punjab several times and none of them look european even the fairest ones but they could pass for middle eastern though.Why are you so obsessed with Punjabis being white.Why do you want to make them white.You know not many europeans are going to accept this?

    • I hate Eurocentrism. Europeans think that they are the only White people on Earth and that is crap and a lie.

      SOME Punjabis look like they could be Iranians, Jews, Turks, or maybe even Greeks or Italians. And I have met a FEW Punjabis (so far two) who simply looked like Europeans. In fact, with one guy, I was certain he was a European man until he started talking! The other guy, I had no idea what he was.

      In this town, many Punjabis look like Mexicans or Hispanics and it is often very hard to tell them apart.

      The Europeans won’t accept this because they are racist. It’s that simple. The Europeans who won’t accept this are all racist dicks, and I don’t care what they think.

      • LOL,which Punjabi guy was that who you couldnt tell aprt from whites unttil he started talking.Did he have light hair,White European complexion,White body type?As I’ve stated even the fairest one of them dont look quite european and Im not racist.Im okay with jews ,Aghans,Iranians in my group but I just cant simply accept Indians.They are way too low and shit.Is that White punjabi guy on fb?Because i wanna check him out?

        • He was tall, skin within the European range (You Greeks have White complexion!?), face definitely European type, his hair was a sort of a light brown to brown. He could very easily have been a Med. He could well have been a Turk, a Greek, a Levantine Arab, a Romanian, or someone from the Caucasus.

          Another one, I had no idea whatsoever what he was. He looked like either a White or a mostly White Mexican. I had no idea he was Punjabi until he told me.

  61. So Robert do you think this punjabi guy is white?

  62. Hey there Robert,
    Do my nephews and nieces look white?

  63. Hello Robert,
    Can this pakistani guy be european?

  64. Hello Robert,
    Could you please comment on our phenotypes?

    • The guy on the right has an interesting phenotype. It could be West Asian or even Mediterranean. He could easily be Jewish or Lebanese or maybe Turkish. The guy on the left is very Caucasoid, but he is too dark to be mistaken for a European. Also he does look like an Indian Caucasoid.

  65. Hello Robert,
    Could you please classify me?

  66. Hello Robert,
    What is my phenotype?
    im on left

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